Joseph-MD | Secular Morality, It's Just Your Opinion Man | The Atheist Experience 26.12
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 4 ต.ค. 2024
- The Atheist Experience 26.12 for March 20, 2022 with Matt Dillahunty and @Apostate Prophet.
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Notice at the very end, Joseph labels the act of Matt hanging up on him as an evil thing, yet he does not label the diseases and assault of children as evil. That is extremely disturbing.
Evil is a pretty lame word. Same with the word sin. There are various degrees and reasons for doing things wrong be it just being rude which at worst might hurts someone's fefe's, to murder which if anyone does not understand why that is wrong they are beyond help, even from a god if any existed. To follow the golden rule does not require belief in a deity or any other mythical being(s).
@Dewyu Nohmi All those descriptive words you cited are subjective. Undesirable to some, good to some, yet bad to others.
@@whichgodofthousandsmeansno5306 "evil" and "sin" are emotionally laden words and used to emphasize a point
Morality comes naturally to someone with a conscience, compassion and empathy, the most important attributes that set a fully fledged decent human being apart from the rest of the animals. People who are devoid of these important attributes,definitely need an outside source like religion to keep them in the straight and narrow. But the trouble with religions like Christianity and Islam is they advocate and sanction,slavery, slaughter of innocent people including babies and children, stoning of people to death for mutitudes of acts, which any fully fledged decent human being find most abhorrent.
@@lawratify
I've been an atheist for decades, but had a religious upbringing and schooling. Not once was "slavery, slaughter of innocent people including babies and children, stoning of people to death for multitudes of acts" ever advocated for by anyone I ever met when I was young and religiously involved.
All Christianity is not the same, and all Islam is not the same. The same goes for the people who subscribe to these sectarian religions - they don't all do it the same way. Sure, they all have whacky supernatural beliefs that don't withstand even the slightest scrutiny, but just because somebody is a Christian or a Muslim does NOT mean they will be in favour of the horrors you describe.
I always go back to when Penn Gillette was asked, "Without religion, what's to stop you from raping and murdering all you want?" He replied, "I already rape and murder all I want, which is none."
🖊Pen Gillette looks like an ⚛atheist,
must be fate.
Morality comes naturally to someone with a conscience, compassion and empathy, the most important attributes that set a fully fledged decent human being apart from the rest of the animals. People who are devoid of these important attributes,definitely need an outside source like religion to keep them in the straight and narrow. But the trouble with religions like Christianity and Islam is they advocate and sanction,slavery, slaughter of innocent people including babies and children, stoning of people to death for mutitudes of acts, which any fully fledged decent human being find most abhorrent.
@@markmiller7317 And what does an Atheist look like? Does it have horns and a tail?
@@lawratify Most people are not moral. People are selfish they do what benefits them. Christianity has lay down Fondation for the morals we have today. It gives community and standards we use to grow.
@@johnnychandler325 Yes people are self-interested. The point (which you would know if you actually watched this video) is that self-interest generally causes people to act with empathy, altruism, and conscience because that is in their best interests, it benefits them. A cooperative society with cooperative individuals helping each other survive will thrive more than a competitive society with self-centered and solitary individuals harming each other (either directly or indirectly). The attributes of compassion, empathy, and altrusim are not Christian values, they pre-date Christianity by thousands (hundreds of thousands) of years - they are genetically baked into our species through evolution as a survival strategy. Most species are cooperative as a survival strategy and that has existed for millions of years.
Joseph: "You can't invent your own morality."
🤣
I don't like being infringed upon. From this I deduce that other people/animals likewise do not like being infringed upon. Therefore I try not to infringe upon them.
Hey presto - a moral framework is established with no god required!
Yeah, the emergence of cognitive empathy by itself is enough to develop a moral framework. Theists are so desperate to justify their own bullsh*t that they will make up nonexistent problems so they can claim that only their imaginary friend can solve it. It's sad really
@Jamal Ramadan ??
That is a very good reasoning.Morality comes naturally to someone with a conscience, compassion and empathy, the most important attributes that set a fully fledged decent human being apart from the rest of the animals. People who are devoid of these important attributes,definitely need an outside source like religion to keep them in the straight and narrow. But the trouble with religions like Christianity and Islam is they advocate and sanction,slavery, slaughter of innocent people including babies and children, stoning of people to death for mutitudes of acts, which any fully fledged decent human being find most abhorrent.
ah yes, but how do you refute (lol) the old canard that Gord has written his will on your heart?
We are animals... with pretence ..
Matt's last comment sums everything up nicely.
The F you or the F your God part !? 🤣
@@nuffflavor Yes, that was right on wasn't it?
And “I can’t do the work because I’m 18” after constant appeals to a “personal” emotional entitlement show this kid had awful parenting.
Matt never fails to show me that he is the Matt who I would like to be when I grow up!
@@merbst Unless you intended to diss Matt...you tripped over verbiage. Never fails to disappoint = always disappoints...
With the existence of a god there is no morality, just obedience. Luckily no god exists, so we have morality.
"Luckily no god exists" How do you know this?
@@francmittelo6731 as in how do you know objectively?
You have morality?
@@timsmith530 As opposed to you, yes.
@@francmittelo6731 I can draw conclusion from incomplete data. No evidence have been provided during the last 3000 years only countless of claims.
It's rather concerning to see what church snd parents can do to an 18 year old. Critical thinking has been taken down.
The lack of critical thinking skills seems to be common with religious fundies, YEC's, flat earthers, hoaxtards, conspiratards, Trumpers and other woo woo beliefs. The good news is being he is only 18 and his brain is not nearly developed yet there may be a chance he can be cured.
i think this person called in some time ago under a different name,his persistant, wheedling arrogance so incensed Matt Dillahunty that he called him" a little runt", i sense a deeply indocrinated catholic here, and he comes off strongely as a chip off the Olde Canadian catholic....
@Dewyu Nohmi they already use some form of it to recognize repeat callers. Often with the trolly callers who change their names, etc, you'll hear some hosts tell them as much. " we know you've called before, why lie about calling in for the first time"
As has compassion.
That ending is so damn gratifying!
When is someone going to see that the god of the bible is not moral. I am sick of people saying it's in his nature when the bible clearly shows gods will to not be moral.
Exactly; anyone who can read the bible and not recoil in horror and revulsion at the gratuitously cruel atrocities committed or commanded by the barbaric, bloodthirsty deity therein, has suspended all pity, empathy and compassion.
Absolutely true. As I see it,Morality comes naturally to someone with a conscience, compassion and empathy, the most important attributes that set a fully fledged decent human being apart from the rest of the animals. People who are devoid of these important attributes,definitely need an outside source like religion to keep them in the straight and narrow. But the trouble with religions like Christianity and Islam is they advocate and sanction,slavery, slaughter of innocent people including babies and children, stoning of people to death for mutitudes of acts, which any fully fledged decent human being find most abhorrent.
Ask any Christian if rape is moral. They will say no. You point out that there is nothing in the bible that ever condemns rape. Then explain that they made that judgment on their own without the help of a god. That is secular morality vs the bible
You can say the same for slavery. Not only does the Bible fail to condemn slavery, it actually sanctions it.
Ask any Christian if murder is moral, they will say no. Then point out all the murder their god commanded others to do or did himself.
Rape is wrong . Slavery is wrong . That should make it clear to you regardless of the Bible
That Bible is “truth” to a lot of people that twist language and reality to try and justify the stance it takes on rape, slavery, child murder, and genocide.
For example:
Ex. 21:7-8 - A father may sell his daughter to be a “maidservant” (or sex slave) who must “please her master.”
Num. 31:18 - God orders his warriors to *kill every living thing* in a captured city, except the virgin girls, who are to be raped and turned into sex slaves. (According to verse 35, there were 32,000 virgin girls thus taken.)
Deut. 21:11-12 - If a warrior likes the look of a female war captive, he can take her to be one of his “wives.”
Deut. 22:28-29 - A man who rapes a virgin *may take her for a wife* if he pays her father 50 shekels of silver. (Yet a bride found not to be a virgin must be killed. - Deut. 22)
Judges 5:30 - The spoils of war include “a damsel or two” for every man.
Judges 21:12-23 - God’s warriors killed all the inhabitants of Jabesh-gilead except for 400 virgin girls, who were taken as slaves. If there are not enough girls to go around, God’s warriors may raid neighboring towns for more to rape.
There are people that have *no* problem with those verses and that’s disturbing.
Ultimately, since you must agree or disagree with your choice of "god", it's still YOU who is making the moral distinctions & judgements. It's as simple as that.
If you act "morally" only in order to avoid spending eternity in Hell; how is that not selfish?
It's the fact they think God will let them off on a technicality that really gets me. If you're really an asshole but pretend to be nice and God is real then I'm pretty sure he's aware of that. :p
@@memitim171 true but I guess there's also the question of "pretending" vs "becoming". It's possible for someone to actually change for something they want I suppose 🤔
@@jonjeskie5234yea but that doesent happen often, NORMALLY the only time that happens is right after a traumatic event OR their life is threatened due to it, an example i guess would be getting lung cancer from smoking, people usually change REAL QUICK after that but almost always they never change before hand, i would know......
Bible Babbler: "The bible gives mankind absolute and objective morality"
Atheist: "The bible condones human slavery"
Bible Babbler: "Things were different back when the bible was written..."
BIble Babbler: NOTHING HAS CHANGE!!! You are God's Slave or His Enemy.... God has no need for friendship!!! God is "I Am" the "Shem Shaddai" (Jewish Name) He is the Real Slim Shaddy!... Eminem Song... ( I Am Shem Shaddai = God's Name)
@@Catheadkisser The bible is *ABSOLUTE PROOF* that the 'god' described in the book cannot possibly exist.
@@Catheadkisser The bible cures belief in "god". All you have to do is *READ IT!!!*
@@holgerlubotzki3469 I read the Bible front to back and wrote what I learned... I also read and wrote: The Quran, Vedas Rig-Veda, Egyptian Book of the Dead, Dead Sea Scrolls, the HIDDEN BIBLE, Book of Mormon Doctrine and Covenants, Torah
If you read seeking the TRUTH ... then you will find it... if you are reading to prove yourself right... then you will find something that satisfies you... you will be in the worst err, but think you are right... That is God's Way!!!!
@@Catheadkisser 'I read the Bible front to back"
Cool! So you *KNOW* that the "god" described in the bible cannot possibly exist!
errr... what exactly was your point, again???
It's hard to deal with the passionate beliefs of youth, especially youths that are recent converts. It takes a few years for them to realize that they are idiots, we all went through it and realize that when we are young we are easily fooled because we are naïve and ignorant of how the world works.
spot on, man.
Kind of depressing that an 18-year old thinks this way. He is supposed to be part of the new generation of rational, critical thinkers who no longer buy into this crap to lead us out of the stone ages. I wonder if this kid believes science is real.
Spot on Thomas. If I could also add my two cents worth on the subject: Morality comes naturally to someone with a conscience, compassion and empathy, the most important attributes that set a fully fledged decent human being apart from the rest of the animals. People who are devoid of these important attributes,definitely need an outside source like religion to keep them in the straight and narrow. But the trouble with religions like Christianity and Islam is they advocate and sanction,slavery, slaughter of innocent people including babies and children, stoning of people to death for mutitudes of acts, which any fully fledged decent human being find most abhorrent.
Yeah, about 20 years ago. Christian’s are a554073s.
I greatly appreciate AP'S succinct responses and demeanor.
I don't.
I think he argued in... hazy ways. I appreciate his ideas, but I find his arguments a bit convoluting and Jordan Peterson-esque.
I think Matt's arguments were way more cohesive and sensible.
We naturally developed morals and ethics as instincts as we evolved as a species.
So other people decided for you what your morals are?
@@timsmith530 All my ancestors played a small part, yes. How do you think morals and ethics originated?
@@timsmith530 um… yes? In conjunction with me? That’s how social species work. We establish a basis for morality and help each other hold to that.
@@timsmith530 Your parents just told you what your name was and you went along with it? Lol what a loser.
There's no evidence of that, you are simply piecing together a rationale after the fact. The truth is we don't know the origin of human morality.
at the very end of the call (23:38) the caller says that anything that happens must be god's will. So all those children that suffer and die slowly of hunger do so because it is god's will. Also all those children that were Raped in god's own place of worship was also god's will.
Disgusting what belief in god will make people believe and defend.
Yup, Jeffrey Dahmer kidnapped, tortured, killed and ate parts of 17 young men while god sat back and watched it like a reality show.
Well god was bored so created his own horror movie - even sadistic gods must get their entertainment somehow!
@@ookeekthelibrarian -- Very Horrifying. Religious people are so blinded by their Blind Faith that they still ask: "What is the harm in believing in my god?" The harm is when it can and DOES make people believe it is 'god's will' that CHILDREN get RAPED!! The fact that they actually try to justify that...
Nothing has set Mankind back more than belief in gods. Because back in the day, they took their books literally. So when people did not believe, they did what their books told them to do = KILL them. Imagine where we'd be today if not for the setbacks of belief in gods. Look how far we've gotten in just the last 120 years! Where would we be without the years of the "Dark Ages"!?
The Fact that here we are in 2022 and still putting up with this crap is inexcusable.
“One of the Greatest Tragedies in Mankind’s entire history may be that Morality was hijacked by religion.” - Arthur C. Clarke
“Morality is doing what is right, no matter what you are told. Religion is doing what you are told, no matter what is right.” - H.L.Mencken (1880-1956)
“Religion is an insult to human dignity. With or without it you would have good people doing good things and evil people doing evil things. But for good people to do evil things, that takes religion.” - Steven Weinberg
@@margaretbarrett6087 😳🤣🤣🤣👍
They must continue the lie, in everything. They cannot just say that, oh yeah, some things we say are not correct, so they must continue to lie. The bible itself contradicts, but the people believing this crap is just adding another layer of contradiction ..
To me it's pretty straight forward logically. As soon as a religious person concedes that everything that happens is the will of god and therefore moral, they've automatically divorced god's morality from our own.
Because if everything that happens is God's will, and what god does is moral, then logically any murder that occurs is god's will and then any murder becomes moral. And yet we detest murder. So how could god be the source of our morality?
The problem is the different definition of morality.
@@danieljackson4511how do you mean?
Matt is of sound mind and I strive to achieve that crystal clear river of thought in my own mind. Thank you Matt
Again heres another example of Matt Dillahunty kicking ass using his left right combination called logic and wisdom, and theres one more component called honesty thats "hardly ever heard" ala Billy Joel!! Great job explaining things Matt i love your show and im a sponge!!
Aloha from Hawaii!! Mmm..good!!
😎🤙🏽
Don't be an April Fool!!!! April 1st is the New Year and the Passover of God.. There are 2 ways (2 covenants to serve God... And they are the Old Testament (Blood Sacrifice.. or the better covenant the New Testament (Fasting)
The fool's fast is to begin April 1st and last 40 days... the first 7 days eating bread with no yeast.... do not eat while the sun is up... eat when it is dark during this period.... (DO NO CELEBRATE the East-Star (Violation of the first commandment)
You will see clearly for your efforts.... Pray in Jesus' name because he was our blood sacrifice (rather than our children) he died as a lamb for our sins and a virgin for our prayers to be answered the Purest blood ... no black magic can hurt you!!
All Praise and Glory to The Father Adonai ... "I Am" the Real "Shem" "Shaddai"
I will be back after the Fast Ends.... God Bless All that are Deserving!!!
In the American prison system when asked about religion more than 100,000 prisoners answered Christian, 143 answered Atheist. Say no more!
Every prisoner in jail "Volunteers" to go to jail... Only God can judge us here unless we agree to allow Lucifer (The Legal System) to punish us... I offer a video called: "Buffalo, NY City Hall Lucifer's Temple!!!" ask for a link!!!!
@@Catheadkisser Just stop obelisk boy, trolling isn’t working out for you.
@@Catheadkisser You don't say which god? According to many religions there are thousands, the chance of your's being the right one is remote.
Yeah, but how many of those affirmative responses were given under duress? Specifically the duress of knowing that the odds of you getting parole without "having found god" are low enough as to be trivial...
Joseph: “I don’t know if I have the time..”
Or the evidence.🤡
This was a really great call. Relatively, to other callers on this show, this one seemed to be truly breaking down the decompartamentalization at least in the beginning and willing to admit they are wrong with still bringing up seemingly intuitive points that many theists make.
He reminds me of me back in the day actually, I think once he does more research he might come around.
Indeed. He’s obviously to a long way to go, but at 18, he’s showing far more maturity than many of his peers who call in. Yes, there was a lot of irrational post hoc excuses at times, but at least he admitted that if everything is god’s will, the bad crap is on him too. Hopefully he listens back to this call a few times and picks up on a few things he maybe missed during the conversation, but he was clearly listening (even if he failed to grasp the point a few times - especially early on).
I’m arguing with people like this right now on a Facebook group. It’s so frustrating that they don’t see the problems they present
This is one of the most swift, intellectual takedowns I've ever seen.
Why does an atheist feel he has to take down a fellow human? Are you savage, supreme, superior than another?
@@timsmith530 it happens in situations where the fellow human says, "This is the moral system I have interpreted from my belief in a god, and *you* must follow this system." So the "supreme, superior" description applies to that fellow human, and "savage" applies to the god they believe in.
@@UnconventionalReasoning You don't have to follow anything we say . Nobody is restraining you .
@@ookeekthelibrarian Well enough to get a comment from you. If you look at a dog he will want petted. ROVER
@@timsmith530 until you pass laws which *do* constrain me.
Religious morals only work for people who are already committed to religion. Ultimately, it's all based on threats. You toe the moral line or you get punished. That's not a moral system, it's a system based on unproven penalties. That only works so long as everyone takes those penalties seriously. The second people start to doubt, the whole thing falls entirely apart.
That's not how Christianity works.
@@martinsoukup562 Explain.
That is true. In naturalism or in an atheistic framework, it does not make sense to claim that morality is objective. There are no objective statements about anything. Why should there be objective morality.
You are God's Slave or His Enemy.... God has no need for friendship!!! God is "I Am" the "Shem Shaddai" (Jewish Name) He is the Real Slim Shaddy!... Eminem Song... ( I Am Shem Shaddai = God's Name) TORAH
@@boblangford5514 You can act morally wrong and still go to heaven. You are pretty much expected to do plenty od sins because you are human. You try to not do them not because you will end up in hell otherwise but because you believe they are wrong and against God.
Joseph’s floundering, swerving, avoiding direct questions just goes to show how believers compartmentalise their minds.
It's rare to see someone so thoroughly demolish their own moral system. And with just two sentences.
20:05 "something is moral because God wills it"
23:30 "anything that happens must be his will"
Anything that happens is Godswill. Anything that is Godswill is moral.
Therefore anything that happens is moral.
I never thought I would ever hear a theist admit either of those things so clearly.
This kid has tenacity and whenever his brain actually turns on he will be a force of nature
uhhhh...for the record, even *IF* his brain turns on, (blind) tenacity isn't always good. In fact, it is (almost definitionally) *obstinacy/obstructionist* Having convictions and the strength to stand behind them is admirable. Being unable to critically evaluate whether they're worth defending is not.
I love AP, I'm so glad he has joined the AXP team 😊
Me, too. I like the way he speaks with his warm calm voice.
And most of the New Testament is the opinion of Saul of Tarsus...
More Apostate Prophet please
Joseph is lost after Matt's first question
Matt never answered Joseph's question. Instead he asked a circular question. That's not how it works
@@azizayasharael8959 I just rewatched the beginning and the caller asks Matt a question, Matt then goes on to answer his question with another question. I find that weak of Matt, I’m sure he would or possibly did say that’s how he was answering, but that doesn’t fly with me. I a firm on not answering questions with questions.
That being said, and I did not rewatch the entire video, i will do so and comment further. Thanks for pointing that out.
Joseph was lost the moment he squelched out of his mother onto the soiled floor of a rent-by-the-hour motel room
Joseph has no idea what just happened.
Yea well, part of Joseph's problem was "well I'm 18". Dillahunty has been debating clowns like this for nearly his whole life and thinking about it even longer. He brought a broken crayon to a gun fight.
after that entire session, at least joseph went down with the ship.
he is at least consistent which is more than most callers
The whole issue of "selfishness" that took part around 16:00 pointed out that the difference in opinion between Matt and Joseph is that Matt was interested in THIS reality, that we know we have, and Joseph only cared about the afterlife...
You can convince people to care about their own wellbeing, Matt is correct there, but caller asked how to convince people to care for other's wellbeing. And I agree with Math that other's wellbeing impacts my wellbeing, but that can't be the only reason for morality. Matt's explanation doesn't explain why I shouldn't steal, if I can get away with it. My wellbeing can be decreased by harming others, but my wellbeing can also be increased at the expense of other people's suffering. So it's not a good explanation that we should be moral just because we care about our own wellbeing. And Matt doesn't explain why should we care for other's wellbeing, even if it doesn't benefit us.
@@goranmilic442 ....first, I could be wrong, but I do not believe Matt was focusing the conversation about "why one should care about the well being of others"... I think he was mostly focusing on his assertion that "belief in a God does not resolve the problems in a secular moral argument"... in other words, your "why should I care about the well being of others" is no different than Matt asking a theist "why should he care about what THEIR GOD deems moral"... simply claiming morality is "grounded in God" does not make it more "capital T" true...
As to why you should care about the "well being" of others whether it benefits you directly or not, Matt would probably use "game theory" to support his argument... playing out various scenarios seems to indicate that a cooperative path with others actually benefits everyone in the long run... you may win a battle with a selfish act, but others will notice and eventually cooperate AGAINST YOU, and you will lose the war...
@@goranmilic442 Because the objective standard of well being isn't "Matt's well being", it is well being in general. I often see some of these theists who object to well being as the goal drum up the hypothetical "What if my well being is dependent on me stealing from or hurting others?" as if they've found their gotcha. In those instances, I like to ask them how the victim's well being is affected. Suddenly they realize it isn't the individual's well being that is the goal, it is well being in general.
Yes, it might help my well being to take someone as a slave, but let's ask the slave about their well being. Sure, I could steal from someone and my well being is improved, but let's ask the victim about their well being. Certainly it could help my well being to kill someone who is opposing me in some fashion, but what does my victim (and my victim's family) have to say about my well being improving this way?
It isn't about *your* well being. It's about well being.
@@RalphJBater I agree with you and Matt about God not solving any problems. I'm just wondering about what comes after we agree on that. You said I can win a battle with a selfish act, but others will eventually notice me. They won't if I have been selfish and stole something only once. That's the problem you have, stealing should be immoral always, but in your moral view, it's only immoral if I get caught. And we know not all thiefs are caught.
@@blarglemantheskeptic 1) I can't be certain, but it doesn't matter. We know there is some chance I won't be caught. Stealing should be immoral always, it doesn't depend on whether I will get caught or not. And stealing can increase my wellbeing. Therefore, it's not a good explanation that we should be moral just because we care about our own wellbeing.
2) Yes, I agree, our sense of morality and empathy comes from evolution, because it was once advantageous to have them. Obviously that's true. It's still advantageous for the group/society today if we have empathy. But so what? Evolution and society's needs just explain how we got moral senses, it doesn't explain why is there an obligation to protect and help and not harm other's wellbeing.
3) There you go. Your moral system is incomplete, because stealing should be always wrong and now you're saying that your moral system doesn't make dishonest stealing always wrong. You made my case.
13:00 is why it can be difficult to argue with theists.
Each one can have a different view about their religion, which can make it difficult to rely on past convos with other believers in the current convo.
I think trust must be one of the most important factors of morality. If you do not act in the interests of others, they will not trust you and will be reluctant to act on your behalf. Trust is the essential glue that keeps society together. And we're losing that...
Even money that Joseph's an atheist by the time he's 40. I remember being very certain in my beliefs when I was a teenager, back when I thought certainty was a virtue. Now talking to apologists is like talking to people who are REALLY into Star Wars. They work themselves into knots to make a story consistent, forgetting that internal consistency doesn't make anything TRUE.
When you do it with Star Wars nobody forgets it isn't true, they just don't care and there's no problem with that. The problem is when you think the conclusion of your conversation about Star Wars somehow gives you the right to tell me how to live my life. Apologists don't forget, and they very much care, but they are well aware they have zero evidence which is exactly why they focus on anything but that. I'm not really a big Star Wars nerd, however, I would bet I can get far more people to agree about what Luke Skywalker wants than what God wants.
Without having watched the video yet, I'll say what I always say when people make objections to secular morality: so what? Even if it were true that a god-based morality would be better because that provides an objective standard, that doesn't help us if there is no god on which to base it. Theists argue as though god-based morality is an option but we are choosing secular morality over it but that's not the case. As far as we can tell, there is no god and, therefore, there is no god-based morality. We are choosing secular morality because that's the only choice. I have asked the question many times of theists - sometimes generally and sometimes directly to an individual - of what they think we should do as far as morality is concerned if there is no god and I have no once got a reasonable answer. The question has been avoided and, in a number of cases, outright rejected. I recently asked a theist that question and he said that he refused to answer questions about a hypothetical that he doesn't believe is true. The irony of his saying that while expecting us to discuss things as though a god exists was completely lost on him because the arrogance and narcissism of Christians knows no bounds.
Would help if the god that this god-based morality is based on could also show up and implement them.
But no
Apparently he established them invisibly "on our hearts" and the implementing of them is also by us....
@@kenbee1957, it's kinda funny that every time a Christian tells you that you already know their god exists or you already inherently accept their morality because their religion tells them so, they are actually proving that their religion is false.
If man relies on Himself or looking to others for morality then we will be failures because we are evil in our hearts originally. God who has yet to be accepted by a few cleans our hearts and renews our minds by His Word and by the Holy Spirit He shows us the right path . We don't always follow that path and we stumble . He is there to pick us up and show us the right way
@@timsmith530 Hate to break this to you but this God that you believe in is not accepted by the vast majority of people on the planet and the number of people that do is not going up. Does that give you any pause?
@@robsengahay5614 The number of people being deceived is going up I agree . Satan has tricked you and God has sent His Son Jesus to free you from bondage
It's not an opinion that the vast majority of people actually value their own well-being and the well-being of their loved ones. This is a fact.
Theists : without my god u cant be moral
Me : prove to me what god thinks moral is.
Theists : i cant show u thattttt
Morality comes naturally to someone with a conscience, compassion and empathy, the most important attributes that set a fully fledged decent human being apart from the rest of the animals. People who are devoid of these important attributes,definitely need an outside source like religion to keep them in the straight and narrow. But the trouble with religions like Christianity and Islam is they advocate and sanction,slavery, slaughter of innocent people including babies and children, stoning of people to death for mutitudes of acts, which any fully fledged decent human being find most abhorrent.
@@lawratify Animals can also be moral. Elephants, for example, are intelligent, moral animals.
@@sunsetpalms1923 how would you define elephant morality?
Joseph, saying "itll take too long to answer" is the laziest dodge to a question
Respect to Joseph. Dude sounds young but very sophisticated.
Yes, the sophistication in his brainwashing is evident.
I love you guys! Thank you for all you do!
Hillsong Church Australia in front page news, Pastor (quit today) and original founder charged with abusing 2 women, court set.
Outstanding case of another Pastor there (quit 1 month ago) of child abuse charges.
And the Australian Prime Minister tried to get that same pastor an invitation to Trump's White House.
We have a federal election coming soon and I am optimistic we will get rid of our Pentecostal PM who speaks in tongues, even when holding press conferences.
Another case of man's morals that he was born with
@@timsmith530 Just another example of a good upstanding moral christian.
Another fine example of Christian morality .....
You can't pin down religious believers with truth, honesty, or facts - their commitment to blind faith means they must necessarily be immune to such quibbles. And so, they will always find a way, dishonest or otherwise, to avoid admitting their beliefs are flawed.
Great call. Loved the fact that all interlocutors where listening and not only talking.
*_That was such a soft target. All you had to do was bring up any of the dozens of horrible moral instructions in the Buy Bull._*
"Gods" "will" to leave us the hell alone has been proven everyday since our beginning.
I'm amazed the first response wasn't 'of course it can't provide a grounding for morality, that's not the question that Atheism is a response to, solely whether you believe a god exists....'
Which God is real among the thousands made up by man?. I take a guess The Flying Spaghetti Monster. Probably the most moral God. The only God that doesn't advocate sacrifice, killings, genocide etc.
Ramen.
Every God in Mythologies are Real.... There is one God and there are 330 million gods!!! Those that understand this statement are very fortunate!!!! I offer a video called
How the Universe Began, Why Am I Here?
ask me for a link!!!!!
Well, Mekhane is also up there in terms of morality. Her only "commandment" is that we use critical thinking, and she isn't the sort to punish non-adherents.
@@Catheadkisser that’s it, Pascal’s wager cubed. Believe it all! 😂
Anybody who needs the promise of reward or the threat of punishment to treat other people well, is not a good person at heart!
Religious morals are just your opinion too, except you let a preacher influence you and pretend a god has anything to do with it. If you actually acted as the buybull describes you'd be in jail...
"I don't have the time to go into that"
Is code for "I don't have an answer"
Talks about selfishness, then says including a god makes people afraid they'd harm themselves... which is selfishness... meanwhile the idea of doing good, just because it's good doesn't seem to occur to this man with superior morality.... Seriously don't these people ever listen to what they say?
Damn Matt’s first question was worded so well
Thank you Matt it was harsh and probably offensive - but god is a horrible monster if everything that happens is gods will as Christian’s claim. No sugar counting or explaining or excuses- horrible monster
That's true. If God was all-good, all-powerful and all-knowing, then there is no reason for God to allow suffering and harms. Since suffering and harms exist, then God is either not able, not willing or doesn't know how to stop suffering. And therefore there is no God.
That's your choice to see the back side of God. It cannot be faced without repentance. For the little monster sees the big monster. It is what it is.
@@garlandgarrett9806 People can repent for what they did, but how does that make God any better?
@@goranmilic442 For that person it will. It's two sides about it.
@@garlandgarrett9806 And I ask you "how". How does repention make God better? Little girls are still raped, repention or not.
And how can God have a back side? If he is all-powerful, he can't be unable to do something. If he is all-knowing, there can't be something he doesn't know. If he is all-good, he wouldn't want bad things to happen to people.
why would anyone care about morality at all if it is not about well being or something close to well being?
How the hell would or could you unravel a mind like Josephs, that is truly frightening, especially at that age. His moral compass is broken.
Re selfishness gets you to altruism.
If I live in a nice neighbourhood, I dont want my neighbour to go hungry because if they do there's a higher chance they steal my food, rather than buy their own.
People who have convinced themselves they are smart asses will always avoid giving an answer by saying "we don't have the time to get into that"
@@sammur1977 thats the pro US narrative, there is always two sides to every conflict. Not a word said of the innocent Russian minority persecuted for over 10 years by the Ukraine natzi hordes wearing swastikas, so innocent is not a word I would use .
@@sammur1977 be honest , we only hear what the anti Russian media reports , all Russian news has been taken off air. You did know about the peace agreement that all parties signed. The Ukraine will remain neutral and NATO will not advance any more towards Russia , NATO broke it on 3 occasions and then the US moved in and were setting up millions in military equipment on the Russian border. Russia is defending the agreement that broken , fighting for it's very future , . The US is pushing for conflict and they are doing the same thing in Chinese Taiwan, it's nuclear navies in the South China sea .pushing the world towards WW3 and the frightening thing is the west's masses believes that Russia and China are the enemy . Conflict is always provoked by the US I hope I'm wrong but I believe they are ready to start the big one , the end .
@@sammur1977 hopefully you realize that men who do fear God do the same exact things that men who don't fear God do. Fearing God changes nothing.
@@sammur1977 building missile sites near the Russian border and having bio weapons labs is a massive provocation, they have filled Chinese Taiwan with missile sites , the US is provoking war wherever it can, how would you feel if the China and Russia were conducting war practice in the Gulf of Mexico and had built nucler missile sites across the Canadian border ? Would you say they were threatening the US and provoking war ? Yes of course you would , that's exactly the situation around China and in the South China sea, so please think about what the US is doing and think if the same thing was happening to the US, only then will you see things as they truly are ...
@@sammur1977 the US main income is in the defence industry= selling weapons , peace is the last thing the US wants .
Good phone connection for joe from inside his school locker.
So his method by which a sectarian morality is established and enforced is fiat and fear. An authoritarian source just declares things good and bad by fiat and then compels compliance through fear of punishment, potentially for eternity.
How is that moral? How is a system that demands obedience without question and deals eternal punishment in and way "moral"? How could anything established as a fiat in such a system possibly be considered "moral" with such an immoral justification and unethical consequences for failure to live up to it?
"So you're saying [insert things not actually said]."
If you want to please God, you must sacrifice everything you hold dear (Luke 14:33).
But pleasing God is for personal gain,, so you must sacrifice that too.
The only way to please God is to give up trying to please him.
Hard pass.
I did that. For Lent. In 1983.
And I haven't yet given up giving up.
Minute 7:40 . . . "If you have a world where people do things just on, like, a whim, . . ." Great point. Please explain how overwhelmingly-atheist countries such as Norway and Denmark, with about seventy percent atheists, continue to score so highly on world measures of comity, happiness, well-being, etc.
If a god is real, how is that relevant to a slam dunk judge, makes as much sense as a god judging morality
The Creator is real, but you don't honor and obey Him as your God and Heavenly Father and He is not forcing you to love and respect Him as your God and Heavenly Father.
How does that affect you?
That just means you are free to do whatever you want.
You can live your life anyway you want and wanted.
You have no responsibilities, accountabilities and obligations to the Creator.
So, that's as simple as that, do and say whatever you want to do and say.
Argue all you want.
Argue and debate that there is no Creator all you want.
Do all that and the Creator doesn't mind at all.
He doesn't mind your existence.
He will not guide, bless, favor, reward, protect and honor you with anything.
He will not kill, destroy or punish you too.
You were created, given life and free will, so you are free to do whatever you want to do with the life given you.
Nice deal with the Creator, isn't it?
@@jaflenbond4484 No, evolution as the process that led to me being born, no god necessary. It's all in your mind and you have been brainwashed since probably a child to believe in that nonsense. Evolution doesn't mind at all, believe in it or not, it does not mind.
@@jeromemccollom936 hahahahaha, so will I debate and argue with you? of course not!....
If you don't want to honor, respect and obey a higher and superior authority than you, then, live your life, that's your life, that's not mine, your life is your life.
The Creator has HIs own life, dignities, honor, will, purpose, character........
You are very intelligent, very high and superior, that doesn't affect me at all.
Hahahahahahaha.
You don't expect any guidance, protection, favors, honors, blessings and rewards from the Creator and Owner of the earth and all that are on it, then, the Creator doesn't mind at all. I don't mind too.
hahahahahaha, so, just relax, cool, no one has any right to stop you from doing what you want to do.
Even the Creator has no right to force you to do something you don't like.......
So, do we have a problem?
@@ookeekthelibrarian Huh?! What Sir?! Did I make you angry? Did I offend you? Why? About what?
@@jaflenbond4484 OH sorry, you can't form a response because you do not understand the concepts I wrote about, so you go with the "you must be triggered" response. Wow you are lazy
“Selfish” means seeking self-interest at the expense of others
Any theistic moral system is purely a human moral system. And we know this as no theistic moral system's gods agree on what is moral or not or are consistent within their own moral system. Christianity is a classic example where at no time in christian history has there moral system been the same. It had ALWAYS changed according to the society in which it practices.
Eg, 1000 years ago it was moral, in accordance with the christian interpretation of the bible, to turture and execute a non christian or the 'wrong' christians, keep slaves, commit wholesale genocide, imprison and kill gay people and command women be denied basic human rights like bodily autonomy and submit to husbands. Hell, even 50 years ago christians deemed it moral for a man to rape his wife and beat her and fought to stop these disgusting christian morals from being criminalised. In civilised nations it is immoral and criminal to rape a child. Yet in countries like the US, christians are fighting to keep child rape legal in the form of child marriage which is still legal in the US.
Then there is the fact that even within a theistic moral system, believers cannot agree on what is and isnt moral. Eg no two christians follow the same moral rules yet all claim to be christians following the will of their gods.
And while theists will never provide a logical and coherent answer as to how they deem their particular version of their chosen gods to be moral over all the other thousands of gods and their billions of contradictory versions, it is very telling that the will of a god perfectly coincides with the will of the person who espouses that god. One could be forgiven for thinking these people make their gods in their own image and use those gods as a tool to enforce their own moral opinions and preferences...because using logic, facts and reason is too hard for the theistic brain.
Your evidence is?
@@walnutoil100 i just stated the evidence in detail.
Sometimes you need to show some people you are angry at what they support and end the call in that way. There is no need for "Thanks for calling" if people can say whatever they like and the end result is always "thanks for participating, here is your medal for participating", they'll be less likely to understand they have failed miserably and doing so compromised their morals... they will not see the price they are paying for maintaining and spreading theirs believes.
Third 🙋🏼♀️ and the moral argument is so ridiculous 🤦🏼♀️🙍🏼♀️🙇🏼♀️
People told me that being Sexualy assaulted by 2 Priests was God's will......
Yea that's why am an Atheist for 12 years
So close! When Joseph conceded that God willed all the horrible stuff to happen, I had all my fingers crossed for Matt to ask him if he therefore thought that God's nature is inherently moral after all. That would have caused him to have to think deeper about his own morals, not just God's. Sometimes these calls end too soon!!
That answer was already given... "as hard as it may be..." means whatever this gods let happen is moral, whether it's good or not
When your moral system reduces to the point where literally anything that happens is now moral because the fact that it happens means that it is the will of god.
Honestly, I never expected a theist to admit that, ever. I NEVER expected to hear an actual theist admit that that is where you get when you take the existence of an omnipotent god to its logical conclusion.
I feel like at the ending, there was something much more disturbing that was almost said, which I think was what made Matt so angry. If the suffering, murder and rape of children are considered God's will, then it must also be moral, since God by definition acts morally according to his chosen response to the Euthyphro dilemma. So any act can be justified by "it is God's will." And if you are able to claim God's will without justifying how you came to the conclusion that it is, indeed, God's will, then, any act can be justified and considered moral, no matter how immoral it may be on its face. Which is a very disturbing ideology.
Quite right. And the other aspect of this line of thinking is its disingenuousness. The Bible-ostensibly the word of God-promotes slavery, but we understand and feel that slavery is immoral so clearly we have a moral sense that isn’t biblically derived.
Well the irony is that his internal moral compass has been jaded by his quest for religious "morality". It might take a traumatic experience for him to realize this..
I think the universe performs as if there is no god.
It explains why bad stuff happens to good people and sometimes nothing happens to bad people.
I am just happy to be alive and be witness to the awesomeness of life
Spot on.
..... Morality existed long before any Religion......
Lmao God bless the young man lol I died when he said it depends on the person . I hope he opens his mind to you guys, your arguments are completely sound, even if God himself came to me, I'd just not be ABLE to believe it. Your points don't prove there isn't a God, but it does prove that noone has any inkling to who he is or what he wants. Otherwise someone, sometime would be able to provide a equal argument.
“It’s just your opinion”
Meanwhile the caller doesn’t HAVE an “opinion” on morality he has a demand. That he will be punished for not accepting.
Does this guy also think math is “just an opinion”?
God's system is one of the most immoral. Theists just never think about it from a fair point of view.
To answer the caller's question: base your laws on the secular moral system. Punish acts determined to be immoral by imposing consequences on them, such as fined or prison. That should be a *much* better deterrent than the thread of hell, since you can actually see people being punished, rather than just the promise that people are totally being punished, you just can't see it.
So in the context of the caller's question, secular morality actually has a *better* incentive structure than theistic morality.
Morality comes naturally to someone with a conscience, compassion and empathy, the most important attributes that set a fully fledged decent human being apart from the rest of the animals. People who are devoid of these important attributes,definitely need an outside source like religion to keep them in the straight and narrow. But the trouble with religions like Christianity and Islam is they advocate and sanction,slavery, slaughter of innocent people including babies and children, stoning of people to death for mutitudes of acts, which any fully fledged decent human being find most abhorrent.
Hey Matt,that guy on your program looks like President Zelenskyy of Ukraine!!!😁😁😁😁🤣🤣🤣🤣
My eyes are so tired from being rolled so hard into the far reaches of the back of my head. 🤦🤦😳😳
_"Whatever happens, that is clear evidence of God's will and God is fine with anything that goes down for good or evil."_
A rock fits that definition. There's thousands and thousands of gods born of that burden reversal.
Love that his 'figuring out what God is...' is just a mumbled sentence about spirit and that's not enough of a red flag for him.....
The caller Joseph doesnt realize that we already live with secular laws. The secular laws have not stemmed from a god, they come from humans putting them in place.
.
Caller is 18... Going on 12.
AP brings a calmness to every debate.
The Spanish inquisition loved God. 😆
The caller's tongue is seeking a boot.
If you act morally just to avoid hell, you’re not a good person, you’re a bad person on a leash.
this one time at band camp
0:11 - SO many thoughts before even the question is presented. Just my two cents:
"Do you want to feel good as opposed to bad?"
If "No", then either you are dishonest, or you are an extreme exception to anyone I've ever seen. (If you enjoy pain, I am characterizing "good" as that enjoyment, not the pain)...
So I assume "Yes".
Since I prefer feeling good over bad, and I assume this about you, a complete unknown person, it's fair to assume that holds true for any unknown person.
Bam... done. We have grounds to make our morals.
how is it that you need eternal punishment to act moral? and if you do it because of that threat, are you acting really morally?
I picture Joseph saying, "Guess what, Dad! I made the football team.........brownies!"
Excellent ending statement.
I ran down the road naked,,,my world didn't collapse.
15:23 - I think it's impossible to reason yourself out of being selfish. I think we all are. Intrinsically. We prioritize our own well-being. Call it "the survival instinct", or "Want to go to heaven", or "Want to avoid hell"... That WANT, is selfish. It's not saying it's BAD to be selfish. It's just, I have never seen anyone ever "not care" about their own well-being in this sense.
When I say well-being, I mean "Feeling good" (by means of empathy, release of dopamine, endorphins etc.) or "Not feeling bad" (by means of reducing pain, discomfort, unease, etc).. And we can build ANY action onto that. Throwing yourself on a grenade that will definitely kill you, alone, with nobody around, is not something anyone would do (unless of course the motivation is "not feeling bad"). And doing it with others there is to increase their chance at NOT feeling bad (by damage or death), which empathy makes you "feel good" for your last seconds alive....
Being selfish in the most "pure" form, is in my opinion, intrinsic to us. Thus not "good" or "bad".. note that; being selfish in broader terms, CAN be considered "good" or "bad".. A non selfish entity, wouldn't care about existing. And I think that's why we don't see anyone not having this intrinsic property.
Don't know if I argued this correctly. Correct me if I'm wrong. :)
This guy thinks he (and presumably all christians) are direct desendents of Jesus. Lol. Best one yet.
Such a dense question.... Simplified "I should treat others how I would like to be treated myself" That alone is the standard of morality without the need for white bearded sky wizard.
Nice guy, actually wanted to explore ideas.
It should not be necessary to tell someone to be good! Its common decency to be a good person, because its inherently the right thing to do.