One thing I keep thinking is that as the diary goes along, Ruby begins to use the word "manipulate" as almost a code word for "cry." For example, "E-- was manipulating" means "E-- was crying." These kids. I can't. My heart is broken.
Anything that pulled on her heart strings was seen as manipulation to her, because otherwise she would be feeling bad for a "demon". I believe that's why she needed Jodi to handle her children when she "lost control". If she wasn't constantly validated that she was doing the right thing, she'd start a shame spiral about being a bad girl. That's why she was so unstable with her husband on the jail phone call and started self-soothing by calling herself a "good girl".
Also when they fall, stumble, get hurt etc. she thinks they're faking the severity of their injuries. Even with open wounds and skeletal looking children, she scoffed in the jailhouse call hearing they got hospitalised as if nothiny was wrong with them... everything is an exaggeration to "manipulate" her.
Gerardo, two completely different covenants. Old God trying to live by God's perfect Law in order to please God. New : Believing in God's ( Jesus's) (sacrifice for sin), said by God's grace and our faith in Him. 2 different promises.
I just finished reading Jenette McCurdy's memoir--her family was Mormon--and her mother also used food depravation and shame to control her. I've listened to enough Mormon Stories to recognize the pattern of Mormons seeming to think eating is a privilege and not a need, and I am horrified every time.
Wow! I've been around tons of LDS families, and have NEVER seen any of these forms of punishments. On the contrary, I've never seen one of these families EVER mistreat their children. I think this is blowing up the wrong way against the church because of a few horrible parents. All religious people teach their children to be obedient.
@@debbiethurgood8053I grew up LDS and experienced those forms of punishment, along with physical/emotional/spiritual/psychological abuse. Dysfunctional LDS families are VERY good at hiding abuse. Children are taught to "keep sweet"; if I tried to signal for help or imply my parents were unkind the punishment would be severe and painful. I knew several other kids at church this happened to, in varying degrees, some kept it hidden for so long we didn't know until adulthood (a couple girls in my childhood ward were SA'd by their fathers, people my parents trusted). You said you're not LDS, so it's pretty unfair of you to brush this off as a few extreme cases. This happens ALL the time. They put on a show for outsiders. There are countless episodes of Mormon Stories that talk about abuse kids go through, it's not uncommon whatsoever.
My father and husband tried to cast a devil out of me when I was ill and we did not know what was wrong with me. It turns out I had had a ‘nervous breakdown’ and I was diagnosed with Generalized Anxiety Disorder and Major Depressive Disorder. My father did not really believe in mental illness. He thought most illness was caused by spiritual problems. As someone suffering from out of control anxiety, being told I was possessed by an evil spirit was terrifying.
The true God in Jesus Christ (not the one the Mormon faith or LDS church portrays...which is not the real Jesus) wants to love, save and redeem you. Jesus' loving-kindness leads people to repentance...with a heart posture...not rituals. Jesus took care of not being under the law and rituals. I pray you will open your heart to the God in Jesus Christ's truth...you will not be disappointed. Be well and be at peace.
@@dz7a756 Plenty of Christians of all kinds believe in Satan, demonic possession, and exorcism. If Debbie believe in God, I hope she finds a loving one. But it would be more to the point to seek mental health care before looking for Him.
I don’t believe either of them are sorry at all. I think they still believe it’s the rest of the world who are wrong, and that they know best how to raise their kids. Kevin seemed like a bystander while Ruby took the reigns, but he co-signed on everything she did, and left those kids in the care of these two maniacs and didn’t even bother to check in for over a YEAR.
As a 47 year old woman who was raised mormon, this is just horrific to listen to and it reminds me of my childhood and it makes me sick it's still happening. It is however validating to me that I didn't make it all up in my head and my mother was following this toxic cults teachings. I left at 18 and have spent almost 30 years recovering. It breaks my heart to hear what these children went through at the hands of the mother they were supposed to be loved and protected by. I know that feeling all too well as do too many children.
I havn't heard anyone acknowledge how the wounds on R were so severe and were going to leave such significant scarring that Ruby was never going to be a able to let him be seen by anyone on the outside ever again. This was undeniably heading towards murder. Even if they hypothetically became perfect children in Ruby and Jodi's eyes how were they ever going to reintroduce them society with those scars? They couldn't have. This was attempted murder and R's reward for saving himself and his sister is his captors getting significantly lighter sentences then if they had unalived him. Ridiculous.
I wonder what the sentence for torture is, and if it’s about the same as what Ruby got or if it’s different. I have this suspicion that if you abuse your own children as opposed to another adult, the law goes easier on you. But I could be wrong
Got to remember though, getting them to plead guilty saved the kids from having to be cross examined by the defense and having to sit in a room with those two monsters recounting what was done to them. It also ensured there would be no Casey Anthony outcome.
@@redshed2020 I still feel that's a massive flaw in our judicial system. Our right to confront our accusers shouldn't extend to children. Especially when you write an entire journal detailing what you did. They should be able to present a case for torture without ever bringing those poor innocent children anywhere near the process. Sadly I'm afraid they will now be traumatized by trying to keep these monsters in since they are going to get all these parole hearings now.
I vividly remember an officer commenting about the items they collected from Jodi’s house. Body bags were included in this list. I remember at that moment I realized Jodi was prepared for that eventuality. Since the coroner provides the body bags after calling a death, her having some in her possession leads me to believe if the children had perished, their deaths would have been covered up by disposing of the bodies while keeping it a secret. Chilling to the max!! Particularly reinforced that Jodi was so aggressive about acquiring Arizona desert property so they could up their torture of the children in a more reclusive setting. These women should never be around children again. Tragically, one day R and E will have to come to terms about how close they came to being unalived.
Let's not sugar coat this. The LDS church was referring people to these two. They were the LDS darlings. However, there evidently multiple CPS and police visits. The church did what? Sent more work their way. Now that the truth is out, I'm hearing crickets from the LDS. You, my friends, have blood on your hands. You know it, I know it, everyone knows it.
I wouldn’t blame millions of LDS members across the world for the marriage and family counselors that harm. Ask some Mormon in any country not USA how their religion teaches them to treat others. For real, Utah Mormons ARE these stories. They literally think waaay differently from other Mormons in the world. It’s like 15 million members strong. Utah is a tiny part but yet it’s also where the most emotionally and spiritually “sick” members reside. Fanatics in Mormonism usually are rooted somewhere in Utah, imo
The church (and everyone else involved) is 100% culpable for everything that happened to those kids, and for the absolute destruction of every single family that Jodi "helped"
They would have carried on until they were dead and then decided the devil had got them and then buried the bodies in the desert. They really should be in prison for attempted murder.
2 things…Thank you John for showing outrage on this subject! Also, as a RNP I can tell you that the children soiling themselves is also a sign of organ failure and the beginnings of tissue breakdown. These children were (in my opinion) were steps away from death.
I thought that too,about the accidents. It's a combination of things... The lack of water combined with the extremely high fiber, difficult to digest foods; the lack of calcium,salt and fats. Ruby had also begun to kick them with hard-toed boots in their sides. Poor RF wasn't just tan/ scarred from sunburns,he was terribly jaundiced. Ruby *hated* those children. 😢😞
Thank you for saying this. One of the most disturbing parts for me was the descriptions of constant peeing/pooping themselves. At their ages, I knew that had to be a sign of severe psychological or physiological stress - or both. Coupled with the fact that they were restrained in various ways. Even a healthy individual, when you gotta go you gotta go and if you can't move, well you go there. And the fact she calls it out as evil, rebellious behavior instead of seeing it as a shocking symptom of distress. So sad.
pain, emotional and social stress, poor nutrition-severe fecal incontience may mean that the body isn't getting enough nutrition, and muscle atrophy--very unlikely these children were able to control their bodily functions and were able to decide when to be incontienent These children were also not able to go to the bathroom when needed--they were often locked outside or handcuffed and restrained so they couldn't go to the bathroom.
I agree 💯 This is outrageous and John’s outrage as well as ours is warranted. When I hear ANYONE tell me to “take a deep breath “ “relax” “calm down”…Incan feeeeel the controlling idea behind this growing up in a strict family. The only appropriate emotions were happiness and content. A display of outrage, frustration or sadness was punished with isolation. @John Mormon Stories please express yourself. It gives me validation to here a man outraged about this. Ty
Re:not being allowed to take the sacrament- as a young mother of 4 children age 6-newborn, with a husband who was incapable of keeping a job, we were unable to pay tithing. It took everything we had to survive, and even then needed help from the church to be able to eat. I wasn’t allowed to take the sacrament for YEARS. Why? Because I wasn’t supporting my husband and making sure we paid. It was absolutely, utterly humiliating. It never occurred to me that people in my ward would think it was related to sexual sin. It’s been 25 years, and the humiliation is still there. I haven’t participated in ANYTHING related to church in more than a decade.
40:18 when I was a young teen, on our way to school, a neighbor told me she had been up late and was tired. I asked why. She said her dad and a neighbor had been exorcising her of evil spirits. I asked why they thought she had this evil spirit. She said because she had fallen on the ground and started convulsing. Later on they learned she had a seizure disorder.
This was sort of a concept addressed in this Book A Spirit Catches You and You Fall Down about a Hmong family which a daughter that had epilepsy. I don't think their practices were anything like what you might see in Mourmon culture - depending on the girls/religion culture it might not have been cause for alarm, we can hope.
@@samanthas8340 I also knew a group of young adults who had their apartment exorcized bc of creaking in the walls; BYU students... Also a mom who regularly saw spirits surrounding her children... a couple who believed their gay son was actually possessed... a young infertile couple tortured by the cries of their as-yet unconceived spirit children begging to be allowed their turn on earth... a man who was sure his body had been taken over by someone else, and he was okay with that... too many stories to tell, some too disturbing for this forum. All mainstream Mormons.
@@jencash9595 it's interesting, whichever Authority is in power determines how to interpret the word of wisdom at that point in time. When I was younger all caffeinated beverages were verboten. I have heard now it is okay to drink caffeinated sodas, and soda-specific businesses abound in Utah. I seem to recall the church owned stock in Coca-Cola or Pepsi back in the day. But the Mormon Word of Wisdom just says hot beverages if I remember correctly
Yes to your rant, John! The Mormon church REALLY needs to call out these extremist beliefs and behavior and denounce the book Visions of Glory. If they continue to remain silent on this, the church IS an accomplice to all of these crimes. It’s so disappointing that this even needs to be said. The church should have done this a long time ago, voluntarily.
I am not a Mormon so I don't know for sure I'm just asking. Is it possible that the doctrine on marriage is part of the problem too? Christian doctrine is that there is no marriage in heaven, but my understanding is that marriage is eternal in Mormonism. Is there a prioritization of spouses over children common in the church? Could that explain part of Kevin's apathy?
Personally, I think Kevin is an absentee father that just left all the parent stuff to Rubt because he was too busy with career and church callings. That is a theme in the church. Add in; Kevin doesn't look like he could fight his way out of a wet paper bag. He's told what to do and how to do it, and just accepts it.
I've said this before and I'm going to keep saying it - I hope every victim of Jodi's and every other Mormon sanctioned by the Church seek relief through civil litigation against their abuser AND the 100 BILLION dollar net worth Church of Latter Day Saints!!
I agree with you. Good laws may be on the books, but they’re ignored by certain LE when LDS doctrine differs. The only way to break up the corruption in the Theocracy of Utah would be via federal involvement. I sometimes think it’s why Utah Senators want to defund the FBI & other federal LE in favor of local Brown Shirts. Brown Shirts like the “sheriffs” who stand behind GOP candidates at their rallies.
Let's not forget how badly the children were failed by local authorities. Members of the community tried to report Frankes several times even before Jodi phase. Nothing happened. Police came for the welfare check, children would not come to the door and the police left it at that! Megyn Kelly played the call of their oldest daughter calling services in 2020. On the call, she says she knows other people called them, too.
Regarding their last point: "how many Mormons do this to their children that we don't know about" This is very true. A lot of parents followed Jodi's and Ruby's teachings through connexions, agreeing that children don't deserve any privacy, "their world needs to become very small", children need to take responsibility from when they are 2 years old etc
The abuse the Franke kids suffered on camera was easily an average Tuesday at my Mormon family's household. The oldest son had his bed taken away as punishment; I was thrown out to an old shop in the dead of winter to sleep as punishment.
THE HORRORS of what has been and still is excepted is astounding. The generational abuse and traum is heartbreaking. I come from mormon pioneers, both sides of the family. I am also the first one to legitimately leave the church. Crazy
I remember seeing Jodi pretending to bow down to children on the disgusting Connexions broadcast. Ruby nodding along and professing children are worshipped in today's society. Absolutely revolting.
@@rebeccacall7348 On camera. Imagine what happened off camera given the fact that Ruby has stated that being on camera helps to control herself with her kids.
I’d like to point out something that I’ve not heard ANY of the people covering this story mention. Ruby and Jodi had been telling the kids how they (the kids) were going to end up in jail because they were so bad. When Russell asked the neighbor to take him to the nearest police station, he wasn’t asking for help. He was asking to be arrested. ☹️ Just like when he wrote that note in pebbles, saying he was heading to jail and would call when he got there.
It was also a plea for help. At one point, "R" (according to Ruby's journal) told Ruby: "I would rather have a glass of water than you as my mother". Ruby and Jodi told him that drinking water was "bad" unless and until he had permission. He basically was saying, "fine, then I will be bad...because I need water to live." In the situation with the police, he was basically saying that he would rather face whatever the police would do to him for being "bad"...than continue to deal with what his mother was doing to him.
Jodi and Ruby had also created the delusional lie the R had committed SA (which is Jodi’s favourite move against males). Jesse had said that they believed the lies Jodi told them, R might very well have felt the same.
The Dad Challenge podcast covers this, and picked up on that detail. He discusses the pebbles etc. The shame that Jodi drove into these kids is despicable.
As a therapist working in Australia with a lot of clients who are childhood survivors of abuse - this case is so upsetting for me to learn about. Thanks for your hard work guys. And love your passion John- you don't need to calm down!
And on top if that. lot if the "demon possessions" are often natural direct reactions to abuse or ptsd. Or just basic human empathy, because when I hear people like Matt Walsh talk about just anything. I feel the rage inside me up and I can just hear them.. see that the devil reaction to god's truth, can't handle it so it rages. Can't imagine how triggered it is for people with ptsd.
This comment here 🙌 and then add that the church’s solution for these mental health issues is that you need to dive deeper into the religion as a cure 🤦🏻♀️
My mother attended a Mormon church run boarding school (in NZ), during the 70s, and I remember her telling me a story of being in the dormitory one night.. another girl from a room down the hall came into her room one night, pale white like she’d seen a ghost, and was terrified to go back to her own room. My mum and the other girls in her room went to investigate, and my mum told me that she felt a “definite evil presence” in the other girl’s room. They went and fetched the dormitory parents, and the “Brother” went in and “rebuked the evil spirit and cast it out of the dorm”… Definitely mainstream belief.
Glad to see someone finally address the “elephant in the room” what is the connection between Ruby, Jodi and the Mormon church? The people mentioned in the journal (who they were meeting with), are they untouchable??? Not accountable???
AVOW , A Voice of Warning is the community of these people. They meet with Jodi Hildebrandt as a counselor and read “Visions of Glory” as a handbook of fear. SEE MIRMON stories and Mormon Discussions, Tim Ballard/OUR Jodi H Ruby F Lori V Chad D Adam PClark And ALL THE OTHERS IN THEIR 😮 CONGREGATIONS.
I worry about the two middle girls, they didn't seem to suffer the same physical trauma but witnessing trauma and being used as an enabler or flying monkey is grotesquely damaging. I wonder how manipulated their thinking was.
@@ZSC92 If it only were that simple! The two middle girls would have already been heavily indoctrinated so they would have believed that the two youngest siblings actually were evil and that they deserved all the punishment. At the same time, they wouldn't have stopped loving their siblings and they'd felt sorry for them, but they'd also be afraid of them because they were told they were evil. The girls would have wanted to help them but felt guilty about it, they would have lived in constant fear and been absolutely terrified of their mother and Jodi, they'd have hated both women but also accepted their authority, they would have been terrified of becoming evil themselves, of being discovered that they were also evil, they would have prayed for their own lives and for their sibllings and the world would have been a horrible, terrifying and very dangerous place. Those girls were victims of a different type of abu$e and they'll need ages to regain some of their sanity, trust and the sense of security. There were reports that in the begining they were with Shari but that they kept running away so I don't know who has the custody of them now. Hopefully it is not Kevin or anyone else from either of their parents' families.
Good show. Some feedback from one viewer. 1. Loved seeing someone who knows nothing about Mormonism schooled through this kind of story . As a never Mormon living in Utah, I learned some things through your education of the guest. 2. I appreciate having the journal entries read versus being summarized. I think it’s better not to gloss over the atrocities to save time. There are plenty of channels that do this. Details matter. 3. Side note: I loved the episode where RFM read some of the journal entries. I would love to see the whole journal read and discussed thoughtfully, as you started to do. Even if it was over the course of several episodes. 4. Lastly, thanks for everyone’s contribution to this show. I am grateful for your time and efforts.
I haven't seen anyone catch this but in her statement Ruby said she wanted Kevin to have the kids "to finish the work we started." And she has a long track record of speaking in code about the disgusting abuse they have put their children through. I guarantee that "finish the work we started" means more horrific abuse for those poor kids.
@@ZSC92 I hear you, friend. I hope they can get the support they need/deserve and really good trauma therapists. I can speak from experience that there is hope for trauma-induced disorders including DID, the past still hurts but we can recover and heal. ❤️
Thanks for your comment, I missed that detail. Now I am TRULY terrified that he'll get the custody back! Can we do anything about it? Are there petitions to stop Utah's mormon judiciary from giving Kevin the custody back?
The church is really good at making specific rules about what members can wear, drink, and even how loud they can laugh. How hard would it be to make a rule about not using fasting as a punishment, and never doing anything to cause pain or injury to a child? It would be the bare minimum of decency, yet they haven’t done it.
Did Joseph Smith say how long a man’s hair can be or how many piercings a person can have? He didn’t even interpret the word of wisdom as the church does today. Read the history of the church and you will find a lot has changed since Joseph Smith. I am 66 years old and a lot has changed in my time, like black men being given the priesthood in 1978 (when I was in college). Don’t you think the church leaders could make some rules to protect children? Is that asking too much?
I had an “exorcism” performed on me as an investigator by well meaning missionaries before joining the church that I consented to. This was in the late 90’s. I was experiencing severe anxiety and depression at the time and tbh, thought it’d be great if just a simple evil spirit could be cast out and have problems solved! Embarrassing to admit now of course. Thanks for emphasizing the point that this is a current lived experience for many mainstream mormons.
I live in Salt Lake City & have for 25 years. I married into a mormon family. My husband is not a practicing mormon. These people are absolutely insane.
I grew up going to Pentecostal, then Baptist, and finally non-denominational and I was taught many of these things. I was terrified of speaking any fears aloud, because Satan or a demon may be listening and if I were fearful that meant I wasn't fully trusting God so my fears would come true. I was also terrified of possession into adulthood. Even the non-denominational church I attended would "cast demons out" of people. Until I started watching this video, I had forgotten how much anxiety religion used to cause me. I'm so thankful my daughter won't have to have the same experience.
Exactly! Concern about demons and possession are pretty central to Pentecostalism and even evangelicalism to some extent (these categories overlap in places). All these movement influence each other. Even if I didn't know people who cast out demons in my evangelical experience there was alot of concern about demons and influence of evil spirits. The reaction of the lady in the podcast shows a general ignorance/unawareness of breadth religious movements--its not just Mormonism. And these religious movement impact each other. Pentecostalism is one of the fastest growing movements in the world and there is certainly a preoccupation with demons and possession. And although the growth of the religion is fastest in regions like sub-Saharan Africa or South America but make no mistake, Pentecostalism is originally a US movement
Thank you for covering this. Imagine the boy had actually been caught by Jodi in time, before he had managed to alert the neighbour, those children would eventually have been left out on some private property in the desert. They surely would have died there. It doesn't bear thinking about. 😢 It screams Vallow all over again.
Never religious, but always thought the whole LDS faith was built on a pile of lies. I am so glad you did this episode. I am kind of a true crime junkie and have been wondering about Mormonism because they sure show up in the true crime genre a LOT. I sent John an email about the Netflix show The Program asking him to watch it and hopefully do a podcast about the involvement of Mormonism in these camps for "troubled" teens.
I’ve watched every second of all coverage of this. My heart hurt for John in this in a really big way. That doesn’t take away from the victims of this crime. But I could feel the pain emanating from such a deep place. I was raised Baptist. I’m fascinated by religious wounds, because I have deep ones. And I still believe in god. I appreciate how this channel is honest and not demeaning.
I am embarrassed that I was ever a part of the Mormon church. I was raised in the LDS church. I do not know what happens after we die, but if I ever do see my parents again, they are going to get a big piece of my mind for raising me in it!!
I’ve been waiting for MSP to cover this. Mainstream coverage has been woefully inadequate because so much their interpretations are uninformed about LDS culture, especially the fringe apocalyptic groups. They misinterpret food storage, safe rooms, etc.
like the part in kevin’s second interview when kevin talks about Ruby going to Mexico for “drúgs” (medicine) for their emergency kit! i thought wow… what a mormon thing to do 😂
I'm interested in knowing more about food storage and safe rooms. The concepts are foreign to me.If one has an abundance of food, shouldn't he/she give that food to the needy? Wouldn't God want that?
@@pattihill7244you’d think so. But in my experience (exmormon, living with a giant LDS family though) Mormons are more concerned for their own family than the needy. The church itself hoards its wealth, buying up properties all over the world. My cousins and aunt and uncle all have stocked full pantry rooms. The idea is the world is ending so you need to have food for your family that will last a while. Mormons believe we are in the end times. My extended family has taken it so far that they bought a huuuuge plot of land in Utah in the middle of nowhere where they are all moving soon because of this belief that the world is ending. I can’t wait for them all to leave honestly lol
@@pattihill7244 If you watch the MSP episode on Visions of Glory or the Hidden True Crime episode on Chad Daybell you will get a better understanding of what food storage is all about. It’s tied to beliefs about the “end times.” Some of it is mainstream LDS and some of it is part of the fringe movement connected to Visions of Glory.
The children soiling themselves….these kids had basically the perfect storm for gastrointestinal distress, severe abuse, periods of starvation and dehydration mixed with a periodic diet of beans and lentils and a desperation for fluids that made them go for pool and toilet water, intense sun and heat exposure….im surprised they had as much control as they did poor things. As a mother I cannot wrap my head around this journal….i watch stuff about it over and over unable to comprehend that it’s actually reality. This podcast gave me more understanding of how they got to this level but it still disgusts me intensely.
Demonizing a person (or a category of people) is most often the precursor to a b u s i n g them. (Demonizing means de-humanizing.) Once Ruby allowed herself to literally view her own children as being demons/demon-inhabited bodies ("demonizing" them in the most literal sense), she not only de-humanized them, but she also no longer saw them fully or even mostly as her children and...therefore...anything she did to them, no matter how cruel, vengeful and mean-spirited, was justified because she was doing it to a demon. Anything goes when dealing with a demon-possessed body...even if it ultimately leads to the destruction of the body. N U T S !
It still doesn't explain why Ruby enjoyed causing her children pain though. Whenever there are cases of abuse where religion is behind it the perpetrators genuinely believe that what they're doing is for a greater good but still have empathy and don't want to cause pain. That's not the situation here with Ruby. Perhaps Jodi might believe in this stuff since it's how she makes money but Ruby definitely didn't believe in this possession nonsense. It was a tool and cover since religion is protected. So she knows that if she ever gets caught she can always get out of any serious consequences by using religion as a shield. And it worked. Everyone else who has discussed Ruby's journal in depth just sees it as her journal but here it's not just Ruby's journal it's Ruby's Mormon journal instead, suggesting that she isn't entirely responsible for her actions but rather Mormonism is.
John explains that all Mormons are taught to journal from a very young age. John showed a large stack of his own journals. Ruby's journaling struck me as disgusting too, so heartbreaking!!!
On an 8 passengers episode Shari read out bits of the journal Ruby kept as a teenager. Ruby explained that her father had given her her 1st journal when she was 5 years old. She said he asked her to write in it every day and Ruby had done so since. I wonder if Ruby hoped to get back to Jodi's before the cops and burn the journal.
I'm only an hour in but I can't believe it wasn't mentioned that.....Not only were high officials meeting with Jodi, the church had also been very directly supporting her by sending church members to her for "counseling" and it was in fact the MAIN source of her giant income (according to Jesse).
@@ElijahsMimi That's true. But it seems with Ruby based on her journals that the goal wasn't for the kids to do better or change. Jodi's niece and others said that once they confessed it would stop. When E and R did everything she wanted and said everything she wanted them to say, confessed to whatever she accused them of, even making sure that their facial expressions and body language were how she insisted they must be, she would accuse them of manipulation and punish them for doing everything she wanted. Ruby wanted to torture them for her own sadistic satisfaction and had no intention of stopping. Jodi's niece said that people did see her. Ruby and Jodi abused them so much that they knew that if anyone saw them, they'd be arrested for abuse. Things escalated when those two psychopaths joined forces. Lori and Chad 2.0
I distinctly remember being told in youth Sunday school classes and YW lessons that “Satan would love to have us.” I had horrible nightmares growing up and was always worried there were evil spirits just waiting to catch me doing something wrong so they could have power over me.
I did too. The nightmares were so intense. I think Russell may have been wanting to call the police on himself because he thought that it was his fault and had done something wrong. He had to know it couldn’t be much worse if at all. He had no idea about the unknown to him, but he wanted to face it. Both of them thought it would be a relief to be anywhere else. The demonic nightmares I experienced is nothing compared to what these babies have to endure. PTSD is awful.
I was the 6th of 9 children in a very Mormon family. When I was 10, my dad questioned some things that we were taught. We were all x communicated. Then systematicly shunned by our friends and family. We couldn't b happier!!
@@Grace-qe9xjLast I heard they were at Judge Jodi’s compound when E was rescued. It was a crime scene, so I would hope they were not left behind. But Kev seemed to believe that Shari “stole them and clothes for the kids” which he was adamant about her being arrested. Kev is still taking orders from Rubes the sadist. I would love to know where they are.
My understanding is that police found the leather case Kevin described (shown on body cam), but there were just empty blue file folders inside, not the actual writings. Considering they took Ruby's journal, I don't think they would have just left them behind.
The Mormon “church”, in my opinion, caused most of this. The “church” did more than just talk about demonic possession. They referred couples and families to Jodi knowing her “practices” were unethical. They were aware of Jessie’s mistreatment by Jodi but ignored it and continued to recommend Jodi. We all heard from Jessie how much money the Mormon “church” gave Jodi for “counseling” families when all she was doing was tearing families apart. So when is the Mormon church going to compensate all these victims? Why are they getting a free pass in all this? As for Ruby’s performance for thanking everyone in the court room….I knew she meant none of it. Just read her journal entries and listen to her jailhouse phone calls. Ruby sees herself as a misunderstood victim.
I almost skipped this because I've seen other coverage. WOW! I am so glad I watched this one. I have painful memories of witnessing a friend's home life. It was nothing compared to this! I had blocked some memories. My brother used to hold me under water in the pool. My family thought we were just playing. I wasn't playing. I have a phobia to this day of water in my face. To have a loved one, not to mention a parent, do this is horrifying. 😭
Listening to the police interview with Mr. Franke reminded me of Adam Steed's horrific story. The plan to kick out the husband succeeded again, and he trusted them. He's been trained to trust and follow authority without questioning, like many in this church.
It is so important to call out the role of main stream LDS teachings in these horrific murders and child abuse. The church does not get a pass on this. I’m Australian and don’t follow any religion. The crazy teachings of church causes so much damage….
It worries me that these religions are creeping in here (Australia) more and more. I cannot think of a Religion that is not dangerous and harmful. Look at America now where people think hate, intolerance and racism makes you a good christian.
I was so hoping you’d cover this! Talking about the Mormon aspect of this case is so important, and I don’t think enough people realize what a big role the religion has played in all of this.
Sadly true. Many religions are fear based. It’s true within entire cultures as well. Fear was routinely used to warn people about precarious situations. Many still prefer to use it but it can end up doing so much harm.
The breaking wheel was an important part of religion back in the day. People don't want to worship the right god? Oh, he called and said you need to suffer and repent. People act like history does not exist. (not about you, though. I appreciate your statement.)
Born and raised in salt lake city, ive been so thankful for your coverage of this story because it covers the Mormon perspective. Hearing that visions of glory is THAT HIGH UP on the best sellers list is so so scary.
So glad to see you all on for this episode! Was just talking with my (now adult) niece this morning about this case and about Julie. My brother and I grew up Mormon. Both left as adults. Unfortunately my brother (father of said niece and several other children) became a fanatic Baptist into Bill Gothard’s extreme teachings. Lots of religious abuse of the kids growing up. Brother and his wife have similar dynamic to Ruby and Kevin. Another similarity is that they believe in demonic possession, and only a couple weeks ago, were trying to call over pastors to “cast out demons“ from their youngest child who is 19 now. They actually believe this stuff being brought up with scrupulosity his whole life he hardly has a chance. He’s been brainwashed the whole time and infantilized. It breaks my heart as it is like pouring gasoline on a fire to tell someone their mental illness is really a demon, what they need is serious mental health intervention as schizophrenia and mental illness runs in the family.
Sadly my adult mentally disabled son took his life. There used to be a definite connection between the gut biome and the brain. I’m devastated he refused to eat anything meat, not even fish! The depression and the extreme emotional pain were palpable. We trued EVERYTHING through his early school years and I took care of him for the last decade. My Life will never be the same, I’m devastated anyone who thinks mental illness is an ‘evil entity’ needs reeducation. This has got to STOP!
I think what’s harder for me to accept is not just the abuse by these two evil women, but that it continued despite so many times the older children begging authorities to help. The neighbours must have known, family members had to have suspected because so many viewers complained about the punishments the children received - yet it continued and got worse . How has the dad not had to face any criminal action.? He lived at home when some of this was happening and it’s hard to believe none of the children would have asked him for help. My heart is broken for these children 💔
I agree 100%! This had to have been happening while Kevin was still in the home. On the first jail house call with Ruby, she said, “You know what it’s like dealing with evil, you’ve seen it and know what it takes to fight it. Fighting it often looks like something it’s not.” And Kevin responded how much he liked Ruby bringing “truth” into their home. I also believe that the only reason that Kevin distanced himself from Ruby and filing for divorce was to save himself. He still loved Ruby and said he’d support her no matter what. He knew he’d never get his kids back if he stayed with her. The whole family needs a lot of help!
So happy to see people talking about this! So many channels just say ‘oh they are evil and they ‘twisted’ religion’ without looking into the detail. Religious texts can create a culture where abuse can be justified. Exact sae thing can happen in Christian cultures too.
💯 !!! There is a reason that (C)SA is so common within these religious groups…. Religious doctrines that vilify sexuality and place men (and men’s pleasure) above women are going to create sexual abuse and dysfunction. It’s horrifying how some women who’ve been abused and subjugated their entire lives grow up and syphon their unhealed trauma onto their own children… 😭 There IS an epidemic of SA in these religious communities. These women (and men) need mental health support and financial support to leave their abusive husbands (and the abusive religious communities). But the answer to combatting the SA epidemic is proper sex ed and deprogramming from shame, so that a healthy sexuality can be formed. Trying to eliminate sexuality, repress it completely, make it shameful - this just guarantees that it’s going to become warped, create porn/sex addictions, and facilitates sexual predators. These religious women are trying desperately to heal and stop the cycle of abuse, but repression simply continues the cycle of abuse….
Do a podcast on Mormon "therapy" and apologetic "therapists", and any pitfalls to be aware of there, a la Jodi Hildebrandt. Update: Mormon Discussions 8 Passengers' "Therapy" episode covers this extremely well already. I was unaware of it at the time, but roll back and find it.
@@michelecraig9658 Yes. I'm speaking more generally, just using Jodi as an extreme example. I'm hoping she's the extreme, but I'm sure there's some kind of spectrum from healthy apologetic therapy to, well, Jodi. This is therapy above a local bishop level I'm thinking of as well.
There are lots of Mormon therapists that are under some of the same delusions as Jodi. The guy who wrote Visions of Glory is a Mormon therapist & all these criminal Mormons in the neews right now have met with him!!
There was a guide published in late 1997, in the wake of the “satanic” moral panic, to help people avoid unethical therapists and questionable therapies. Fringe therapies conducted by poorly trained and conspiratorial therapists started and drove the panic. “Detachment therapies” where patients were isolated from their parents, siblings, friends, husbands and even children were common. Several therapists engaged in unethical relationships with their patients. Many moved them into their house. This 1997 guide still does a pretty solid job laying out when you should run. It also reads like a checklist for everything Jodi Hildebrandt. See below. 👇 There are very few sure things in life, but the following guide to recognizing an incompetent, immoral or quack therapist is about 99.9% guaranteed. You should not trust your therapist, regardless of his or her reputation, fame, diplomas, certificates, etc., if He or she tries to have sex with you or claims that having sex with one's therapist is "good therapy." Intimate sexual behavior, including erotic kissing, fondling or lovemaking, between therapist and patient is always inappropriate. (The Sexual Predator) He or she tries to have you move in and do chores, keep the books, work the farm, have sex, etc. (The Exploiter) He or she spends a lot of time during your sessions talking about his or her own personal problems, such as her husband's illness, his wife's frigidity, another patient's hang-ups, his sexual needs. (The Neurotic) He or she requires as a condition for therapy that you cut off all relations with your spouse, children, parents and other loved ones. (The Cult Guru) He or she claims to know what your problem is and how to fix it, even though no thorough history of you has been taken. (The Savant Idiot) He or she claims that you must be hypnotized in order to discover either hidden memories or hiding entities which are causing your problems. (The Exorcist) He or she specializes not in treating people for specific problems such as depression or anxiety, but rather in treating people as if all problems have an identical cause. (The Johnny-One-Note) He or she claims to have a technique which works miracles or works like magic, curing those who had heretofore been considered hopeless. (The Miracle Worker) He or she has a checklist which is claimed to be an excellent way to find out if you suffer from whatever the therapist specializes in, and you have enough checks to qualify. (The Scientist) He or she requires as a condition for therapy that you accept certain religious, metaphysical or pseudoscientific notions. To have good therapy you should not be required to believe in God, reincarnation, alien abductions, possession by entities, inner children, Primal Pains, channeling, miracles, or any of the many pseudoscientific theories popular among therapists. (The New Age Pseudoscientist)
I am so disturbed and upset to learn the abuse was based on mainstream Mormon beliefs. And that the Church hasn’t publicly condemned Ruby & Jodi!!! How are they ever going to reform if they aren’t told by the church that it was wrong?? How are other like-minded Mormon parents going to know it’s wrong??
I wouldn't call it mainstream Mormon beliefs. We raised our children either the idea that they got to earth perfect and it was our goal not to screw them up. We gave them every opportunity possible for learning and exposure, LDS or not, unless there was a safety or legal worry. Our daughter went trekking in Nepal at 17. Those women are totally fringe to me. If a child has never had to manage themselves as a child how can they magically do it at 18-19-20 years old?
@@terrywells7896 What if you had a child that was on the autism spectrum, or had ADHD. They would respond oddly to you, maybe defiantly. Would you automatically think they are possessed? Would you need a priest to cast out their demons? Do Mormons even accept there are conditions like autism and adhd? I’m not saying R & E had such conditions, but what if they did? They might come across as disobedient when they are tired or upset or emotionally hurt. No person in this would is perfect. Only God is perfect.
Has anyone mentioned Debbie and Michael Pearl and To Train Up A Child? the "100 percent obedience with exactness" is one of their catch phrases . Its even shown in the Shiny Happy People documentary in a clip with Michelle Dugger training her youngest to recite that with a tone of joy. This book is just as rampant and dangerous as VOG, and extends to all fundamental religions.
@@smooth_pursuit I thought so, but between watching this and Cults to Consciousness I forget who has spoken about what. What a horror of a book. I actually found it on the bookshelf of my pregnant sister-in-law and am not ashamed to say I stole it and burned it. I am NOT for burning nor banning books; Except this one.
As a never mormon who has followed this case, i found this really helpful and insightful. Religious corruption has been a reality since there has been organized religions but facing it head on, like you all are doing is the best way to start to diminish it.
on my mission we were told to cast out evil spirits from homes where it was rumored that they did witchcraft. we were also told to ask if we can bless the houses of members. So essentially we were told to go around banishing evil from homes where there weren't members and give blessings to those with members.
Thank you so much John and Gerardo for explaining the beliefs. It really helps in understanding things. It is absolutely horrendous what these children have endured. I agree, The Morman Leadership needs to call this behaviour out. Their silence is like they are condoning it.
well if the internet does one thing well - it's to shed light on religious BS. After watching the interview of the husband, all i can say is dont be that guy. Focus on the best interests of your kids. When your kids mom cuts you off from your kids, you shut off the part of emotional brain with respect to the mom....you hire a lawyer, you get a parenting evaluation, and you establish a parenting plan.
1:17:46 this is one of the worst parts of the journal for me to hear. E was terrified of Jodi but still had hope that her mother would snap out of it and see that she was torturing her innocent child. The way Ruby wrote about it as if it was manipulation. So tragic and in so proud of those children for surviving.
@ZSC92 the problem there is Jodi was already the family therapist when that happened. The younger a child is, the more difficult developmentally it would be to conform to the "discipline" strategies Jodi recommended. I think Ruby treated all her kids as dolls to collect and possessions to show off in content long before Jodi, but I don't think she was physically dangerous and dehumanizing until Jodi arrived. She was always selfish and made dumb parenting choices but Jodi saw someone obsessed with appearances and belonging that could be easily manipulated.
Aside from the obvious horrors within the journal, something bothered me that I couldn't quite lay my finger on. Then when it got to the statement of letting them think they won, and "POP!!!" as Ruby writes it, it hit me. She's a sadist, this is a game to her. Unless I missed something, she never expressed reluctance at having to subject her children to this. And as I started to entertain that I was wrong about her intentions and she believes she's casting out the demons, I came to a creepy realization. The only times she references the demons, is when she's speaking directly to the children. She writes about the children being rebellious, never the demons influencing them to rebel. She speaks about what her and Jodi did to the children, not to the demons they're trying to cast out.
100% - if Ruby was only brainwashed to think the children were possessed and that this needed to be done to remove the evil spirits and turn them back on a path towards goodness, then a normal parent would still feel agony about the children having to go through it. I would expect to see things like "It's awful that this is the only way to remove the evil spirits from these children, and my heart weeps for them every day, but we must win this fight for the children to be well again, to save their souls. Jodi has received revelations from God and says there is no other way.", or anything to show a single speck of sympathy and understanding of the torture the kids are experiencing. And yet instead we get glee, and she, on her own, comes up with random ideas on how to inflict more pain and torture, such as putting on boots and kicking R, whipping both of them with a belt, handcuffing R's hands and ankles while he is on his stomach and then tying ropes between the cuffs so that his arms and legs are raised in the air, putting her hands tightly over his nose and mouth and saying she is doing it because she loves him, among many other things. These things are just pure sadism and have little to do with being brainwashed in Jodi's ideas. I really see Jodi as effectively giving Ruby divine permission to let her freak side run wild. She always wanted to do these things but was held back by believing they were wrong and/or worries about the consequences she would face or due to pushback from other people. Once Jodi told her God says it is ok and the children need it for their own good, and there was no one else left to answer to, she let loose.
@@stephenreed9631 Exactly!! I can't believe they didn't realize that. It seems they really want to push the idea that this is all Jodi. Listening to former clients or victims of Jodi, they never mentioned having wounds and skin falling off. Ruby was torturing these kids for fun. Ruby got annoyed and angry when the children didn't respond to pain and started getting creative. Living with Jodi and having the ability to torture E and R everyday however she wanted was probably the happiest Ruby had ever been. That's why she was so angry when she was arrested because her toys were taken away.
The Roman Catholic church still does exorcisms, but there has to be extremely carefully vetting and discernment at a high level of the church. They find that almost all of the problems are related to mental health problems. Why does the LDS church allow any Tom, Dick, or Harriet decide about these matters?
John you are 100% accurate. Casting out demons is definitely main stream and current Mormon belief. We have family that still practice this weekly and sometimes daily. It is very unfortunate that this form of gaslighting is still occurring. Thank you for staying strong and bringing it to the public. Keep up the great content. Thank you
With all due respect, I've been an LDS member all my life and my husband has been Bishop and I must say that I have never ever seen anyone try to cast out devils!! Ever!!! Maybe that's an offshoot church of the Chad Daybell variety? Also, the LDS church is the most popular church to persecute these days. But there are crazy, evil people in every church and culture. Its wrong to generalize. Doing so only adds to the hatred and violence in this world. Our church focus is to live by the most important commandments 1) Love God with all our hearts. 2) Love our fellow beings. Christ is our Savior and exemplar. Everything else are only appendages to these principles. At a time, where persecution has never been so high, my husband and I, as senior missionaries, know that we have more people coming into our church because they find that after they do deeper, less one sided investigation, that much of what they read or hear is hog wash. I would encourage everyone to seek out a true temple going believer to find out our real beliefs and not rely on someone who has an axe to grind or other nefarious motives. Love and Peace to all!
@satu214 I would very much enjoy hearing your Mormon story and hearing your experience as a Mormon and the wife of a Bishop. John is always looking for Bishops and their families to share their story on the podcast. When can John contact you or your husband to be on the show to share your story?
Now I believe I know why Kevin went to retrieve the electronics from the home, so he would prevent the authorities to know the extent of his involvement in all this. I guess that by then the police had already seized the Ruby's journal. I guess he wrote his in his computer or ipad, right?
@@momofallcats Thank you for clarifying. I had heard conflicting reports, but after looking up recent reports now, it appears you are right, which is a huge relief. I guess Kevin is still trying to convince people that he should have them back. I hope to God that won't happen.
@@sarahh6043 Yes, thank you. I had understood from some reports that he had them. But what I found now seems to indicate he does not and that all the under age kids are in protective services. Thank you for clarifying. Apparently he is trying to get them back. I hope that does not happen.
I noticed a very “mainstream” well known successful LDS entrepreneur (family also had a huge Instagram influencer account) on the back cover of Visions of Glory giving their recommendation to read it. 👀 Yet people want to say it is just fringe members with these ideas.
Props to Julie and Gerardo for carrying on the episode when John had tech issues. You two have great chemistry and didn't miss a beat. This is a heavy and important episode, but I want to make sure you two knew how well you did. John, you're excellent at selecting guests!
Love Julie’s channel (and of course you too John!) Julie interviewed a guy named Carl who had been a UT Mormon TH-camr and knew the frankes personally. Fascinating connection!
I appreciate John's passion, I don't view it as yelling at all. I feel like sometimes the reverent agenda gets pushed off onto John. Keep that passion, reverence is NOT appropriate for this topic. I feel like people should be angry and passionate, and loud about stopping this fanatical abuse of children. Yell it from the rooftop John.
Thank you for exposing this!! I pray for the children to heal!! I pray that that board of parole/ pardons will keep these evil women in prison for a very long time!!!
I've noticed that both Jodi and Ruby really never even define any of the "transgressions" with any specificity. It seems clear to me that whenever they wanted to t o r t u r e the children, and feel "justified", they just made a general accusations of "disobedience", "lying" and "selfishness" or they would just make up arbitrary and unreasonable things that the children needed to accept (e.g. standing in the sun for hours or going without water). Even worse, the obvious results of the t o r t u re and a b us e ... such as R wetting his pants or E "fidgeting" ... are then declared by Ruby or Jodi as being the consequences/manifestations of the "evil" in the children. If anyone was possessed by demons, it was Jodi and Ruby (not that I believe in that...but their own behavior best illustrates what they believed regarding the signs of possession).
Ruby said in one of her videos that any of her punishments lasted at least six months and that the improvement had to be in every area of their lives, not just in what had occasioned the punishment.
I got chills when Ruby told her son "I will love you until the DAY YOU DIE!" She knew he wasn't going to live through this torture. For half a second, I thought she was an actual mom and was about to say, "I will love you until the day I die." I would die before I allowed my son to be treated like that. I hope that every day in jail, they are put through some of hell they inflicted on these children. I pray she comprehends what be meant when he said he would rather be in jail than have her as his mom.
Actually, Ruby said to R "I will fight you until the day YOU die!" Ruby also wrote " R told me he'd rather have a glass of water than me as his mother" She knows why he said that since she wrote it down and reflected on it.
I’ve been looking forward to hear your take on all this. This gets worse and worse the more we learn. I hope Ruby and Jodi’s cell mates get to hear a lot of this. Trust me, Jesus had nothing to do with these two woman.
I happened to read Ruby's journals on Reddit the same week I read The Witches: Salem, 1692 by Stacy Schiff, and was taken aback at the direct connection between the two. The Puritanical teachings of 1692 New England have been passed down to *some* modern day Mormons.
I think a lot of people don’t understand or accept their own religious beliefs. It’s either watered down to be palatable or the more extreme things are said by a charismatic preacher character and it feels “good” or righteous in the moment, but when you state it soberly it sounds bat sh*t crazy. That’s the majority of religions I’d wager.
I agree! I know the goal is to eventually have the children be reunited with family however this family is despicable and disgusting. The grandparents are asking the children to forgive their abuse mother, the aunts/uncle are selfish money hungry leeches and Kevin is incompetent. These kids are better off being placed with a non- Mormon healthy, safe, and supportive family.
Long fasting can also cause loose stools, I believe, especiallyif they water and little food. If you don't let a child use the toilet except on your schedule, you're just asking for a mess.
It can. Malnutrition can definitely cause stomach issues. I … I don’t know. I know Jodi uses a lot of tactics from the troubled teen industry and I can’t help wondering about tactics some wilderness therapy camps use. One wilderness therapy my area (which I hope will be shut down soon) has a confirmed/documented history of not providing campers with filtered or boiled/distilled water when they are in the woods for weeks. Their local health department (per news reports) has confirmed that the water often given to campers is full of bacteria that cause severe stomach upset, and parasites that cause stomach upset/discomfort/itching. The campers have to drink this water and use it to cook their food in on camping stoves. Food is often withheld as punishment too and when the kids do get to eat their stomach is in a mess. I couldn’t stop thinking about this when I saw passages from Rubys journal that said things like “mop water 7”. Why is the mop water numbered? Why were they constantly saving mop water to pour on the kids? I’ve wondered about other thing said in Ruby’s journal that could possibly point toward R experiencing discomfort and itching She looked at potential signs of discomfort/chronic itching (the state of his fingernails, and I’ll leave it at that in hopes of not being too graphic) while claiming it was a sigh that he was possessed. * In case it isn’t clear - I can’t stop wondering if they were also doing something to the food/water.
What they did to the kids is incomprehensible. It’s never going to make complete sense. I just keep thinking about the fact that the kids getting food or water for themselves was deemed “stealing”, and therefore punished. A lot of effort was put into making sure sustenance only came from others. That is a big change coming from a mom who notoriously made the kids pack their own lunches.
Exmormon convert here, out since 2015. Re weeding cemetery: as a community project, we used to go and weed and tidy up local cemeteries. Whole families would do that on a Saturday, and also paint play centres and nurseries, distribute food etc. Service projects like that. This is in South Africa. But as a non-mormon when I was a child, we also raked leaves and helped with yard-work. But these people are on a whole other level, too shocking for words. Hope the kids get all the love and healing their hearts can hold. ❤
I'm so glad to finally hear someone mention the middle two children! None of the news reporting or the court case did we hear what the two middle children went through being traumatized and brainwashed by watching their younger siblings be brutally abused and the craziness around these 2 evil women and their thought processes. These two middle children may not have been physically abused because of their age but they were definitely mentally abused! One of them was pretty defiant with the police when they originally took them into protective custody. So they were definitely involved in this craziness!
This is the first time I’m hearing they were present for the abuse of their siblings. I’m not sure what they went through but in the case it was mentioned that Russell and Eve were denied food in the home and when they were given food it was plain while everyone else had flavorful food. I don’t want to place blame on those girls because I’m sure they were brainwashed, maybe even sacred however they could have done more for their siblings. Shari did more for her siblings and she wasn’t even aware to the extent of the abuse! I hope the state never lets Russell or Eve near any of the family especially the extended family save for Shari. They are all dangerous and brainwashed fanatics and these kids wouldn’t be safe around them.
Well John, it sounds like you have an article to write for the New York Times, Vanity Fair, or The Atlantic. I think someone does need yo give the background to this and how it is baked into Mormonism.
I worry about how corrupted the two middle girls are because they not only witnessed the torture and abuse of their younger siblings, but they escaped the same punishment by being compliant and allowing the brainwashing. What damage has this done to their character and conscience? And at such a vulnerable age! Adolescence is when our character is fully developed and theirs has been deeply warped. I fear that they may not get the therapy and support that they need because they escaped the worst of the physical damage.
Right before Ruby was arrested she asked a friend (Pam) to pick up 2 of her other daughters. Pam said OK and that she had cleaning for the children to do as she was expecting company. I thought that very strange- that you would expect your friend’s daughters to clean your house.
It's amazing how much this resonates. Thank you Jon for pushing and continuing to remind us that there is a huge mainstream basis for all of this torture and abuse. It is absolutely mainstream.
The term “Protestant Work Ethic” exists for a reason. I get John’s point at 1:59:25 . Valuing hard labor isn’t always religious… But Christian religions REALLY value hard labor. Going all the way back to early American puritans. As a kid who grew up Christian, this led me to believe: Rest/pleasure = sin, Suffering = God is happy with you.
One thing I keep thinking is that as the diary goes along, Ruby begins to use the word "manipulate" as almost a code word for "cry." For example, "E-- was manipulating" means "E-- was crying." These kids. I can't. My heart is broken.
I noticed this too. She also says R was manipulating with his hands, I wonder what that could mean. Maybe rubbing at his injured wrists.
Anything that pulled on her heart strings was seen as manipulation to her, because otherwise she would be feeling bad for a "demon". I believe that's why she needed Jodi to handle her children when she "lost control". If she wasn't constantly validated that she was doing the right thing, she'd start a shame spiral about being a bad girl. That's why she was so unstable with her husband on the jail phone call and started self-soothing by calling herself a "good girl".
These women are dead inside and put these two children through hell on earth. Zero empathy.
Also when they fall, stumble, get hurt etc. she thinks they're faking the severity of their injuries. Even with open wounds and skeletal looking children, she scoffed in the jailhouse call hearing they got hospitalised as if nothiny was wrong with them... everything is an exaggeration to "manipulate" her.
Gerardo, two completely different covenants. Old God trying to live by God's perfect Law in order to please God. New : Believing in God's ( Jesus's) (sacrifice for sin), said by God's grace and our faith in Him. 2 different promises.
I just finished reading Jenette McCurdy's memoir--her family was Mormon--and her mother also used food depravation and shame to control her. I've listened to enough Mormon Stories to recognize the pattern of Mormons seeming to think eating is a privilege and not a need, and I am horrified every time.
I also noticed a recurring theme of a lack of boundaries/privacy.
Most definitely. I never heard the concept of boundaries until I was 50 years old. A lot of unlearning and relearning to do.
Wow! I've been around tons of LDS families, and have NEVER seen any of these forms of punishments. On the contrary, I've never seen one of these families EVER mistreat their children. I think this is blowing up the wrong way against the church because of a few horrible parents. All religious people teach their children to be obedient.
That's so nuts. It's not typical LDS beliefs. But obviously we are surrounded by wackos these days.
@@debbiethurgood8053I grew up LDS and experienced those forms of punishment, along with physical/emotional/spiritual/psychological abuse. Dysfunctional LDS families are VERY good at hiding abuse. Children are taught to "keep sweet"; if I tried to signal for help or imply my parents were unkind the punishment would be severe and painful. I knew several other kids at church this happened to, in varying degrees, some kept it hidden for so long we didn't know until adulthood (a couple girls in my childhood ward were SA'd by their fathers, people my parents trusted). You said you're not LDS, so it's pretty unfair of you to brush this off as a few extreme cases. This happens ALL the time. They put on a show for outsiders. There are countless episodes of Mormon Stories that talk about abuse kids go through, it's not uncommon whatsoever.
My father and husband tried to cast a devil out of me when I was ill and we did not know what was wrong with me. It turns out I had had a ‘nervous breakdown’ and I was diagnosed with Generalized Anxiety Disorder and Major Depressive Disorder. My father did not really believe in mental illness. He thought most illness was caused by spiritual problems. As someone suffering from out of control anxiety, being told I was possessed by an evil spirit was terrifying.
❤
The true God in Jesus Christ (not the one the Mormon faith or LDS church portrays...which is not the real Jesus) wants to love, save and redeem you. Jesus' loving-kindness leads people to repentance...with a heart posture...not rituals. Jesus took care of not being under the law and rituals. I pray you will open your heart to the God in Jesus Christ's truth...you will not be disappointed.
Be well and be at peace.
@@dz7a756 Plenty of Christians of all kinds believe in Satan, demonic possession, and exorcism. If Debbie believe in God, I hope she finds a loving one. But it would be more to the point to seek mental health care before looking for Him.
Oh debbie,it sounds like a perpetual nightmare. I embrace you and hold you sacred in my heart
Oh bless you. I hope you are feeling well and healthy sweetie 🤗
Doesn’t matter how sorry or brainwashed Kevin & Ruby are. They should NEVER be around ANY children, ever again!
I don’t believe either of them are sorry at all. I think they still believe it’s the rest of the world who are wrong, and that they know best how to raise their kids. Kevin seemed like a bystander while Ruby took the reigns, but he co-signed on everything she did, and left those kids in the care of these two maniacs and didn’t even bother to check in for over a YEAR.
Agreed
Facts!! 😡
Their crimes are too awful for second, third chances.
The best they can do is to stay away from the children. Cause as little trouble as possible.
Except, I think Kevin has the children in his custody.
He & Ruby are still in constant communication. I don't think they finalized their divorce. ??
As a 47 year old woman who was raised mormon, this is just horrific to listen to and it reminds me of my childhood and it makes me sick it's still happening. It is however validating to me that I didn't make it all up in my head and my mother was following this toxic cults teachings. I left at 18 and have spent almost 30 years recovering. It breaks my heart to hear what these children went through at the hands of the mother they were supposed to be loved and protected by. I know that feeling all too well as do too many children.
Sending you ❤!
❤
You should tell your story on this show, if you want to of course ❤
I’m 53, same.
❤❤❤
I havn't heard anyone acknowledge how the wounds on R were so severe and were going to leave such significant scarring that Ruby was never going to be a able to let him be seen by anyone on the outside ever again. This was undeniably heading towards murder. Even if they hypothetically became perfect children in Ruby and Jodi's eyes how were they ever going to reintroduce them society with those scars? They couldn't have. This was attempted murder and R's reward for saving himself and his sister is his captors getting significantly lighter sentences then if they had unalived him. Ridiculous.
I wonder what the sentence for torture is, and if it’s about the same as what Ruby got or if it’s different. I have this suspicion that if you abuse your own children as opposed to another adult, the law goes easier on you. But I could be wrong
So true. This wasn't about the kids'attitudes changing or anything or improvement at all. They were slowly killing them. That seems to be the goal.
Got to remember though, getting them to plead guilty saved the kids from having to be cross examined by the defense and having to sit in a room with those two monsters recounting what was done to them. It also ensured there would be no Casey Anthony outcome.
@@redshed2020 I still feel that's a massive flaw in our judicial system. Our right to confront our accusers shouldn't extend to children. Especially when you write an entire journal detailing what you did. They should be able to present a case for torture without ever bringing those poor innocent children anywhere near the process. Sadly I'm afraid they will now be traumatized by trying to keep these monsters in since they are going to get all these parole hearings now.
I vividly remember an officer commenting about the items they collected from Jodi’s house. Body bags were included in this list. I remember at that moment I realized Jodi was prepared for that eventuality. Since the coroner provides the body bags after calling a death, her having some in her possession leads me to believe if the children had perished, their deaths would have been covered up by disposing of the bodies while keeping it a secret. Chilling to the max!! Particularly reinforced that Jodi was so aggressive about acquiring Arizona desert property so they could up their torture of the children in a more reclusive setting. These women should never be around children again. Tragically, one day R and E will have to come to terms about how close they came to being unalived.
Let's not sugar coat this. The LDS church was referring people to these two. They were the LDS darlings. However, there evidently multiple CPS and police visits. The church did what? Sent more work their way.
Now that the truth is out, I'm hearing crickets from the LDS. You, my friends, have blood on your hands.
You know it, I know it, everyone knows it.
💯
💯 so horrible.
I wouldn’t blame millions of LDS members across the world for the marriage and family counselors that harm. Ask some Mormon in any country not USA how their religion teaches them to treat others. For real, Utah Mormons ARE these stories. They literally think waaay differently from other Mormons in the world. It’s like 15 million members strong. Utah is a tiny part but yet it’s also where the most emotionally and spiritually “sick” members reside. Fanatics in Mormonism usually are rooted somewhere in Utah, imo
the police, the lawyers, and the judge's were in on it according to Adam
The church (and everyone else involved) is 100% culpable for everything that happened to those kids, and for the absolute destruction of every single family that Jodi "helped"
They would have carried on until they were dead and then decided the devil had got them and then buried the bodies in the desert. They really should be in prison for attempted murder.
2 things…Thank you John for showing outrage on this subject!
Also, as a RNP I can tell you that the children soiling themselves is also a sign of organ failure and the beginnings of tissue breakdown. These children were (in my opinion) were steps away from death.
I thought that too,about the accidents. It's a combination of things... The lack of water combined with the extremely high fiber, difficult to digest foods; the lack of calcium,salt and fats. Ruby had also begun to kick them with hard-toed boots in their sides. Poor RF wasn't just tan/ scarred from sunburns,he was terribly jaundiced.
Ruby *hated* those children. 😢😞
Thank you for saying this. One of the most disturbing parts for me was the descriptions of constant peeing/pooping themselves. At their ages, I knew that had to be a sign of severe psychological or physiological stress - or both. Coupled with the fact that they were restrained in various ways. Even a healthy individual, when you gotta go you gotta go and if you can't move, well you go there. And the fact she calls it out as evil, rebellious behavior instead of seeing it as a shocking symptom of distress. So sad.
pain, emotional and social stress, poor nutrition-severe fecal incontience may mean that the body isn't getting enough nutrition, and muscle atrophy--very unlikely these children were able to control their bodily functions and were able to decide when to be incontienent These children were also not able to go to the bathroom when needed--they were often locked outside or handcuffed and restrained so they couldn't go to the bathroom.
I agree 💯 This is outrageous and John’s outrage as well as ours is warranted. When I hear ANYONE tell me to “take a deep breath “ “relax” “calm down”…Incan feeeeel the controlling idea behind this growing up in a strict family. The only appropriate emotions were happiness and content. A display of outrage, frustration or sadness was punished with isolation. @John Mormon Stories please express yourself. It gives me validation to here a man outraged about this. Ty
There’s a point in the journal where Ruby accuses E of ‘stealing’ water because she is having watery stools. That is textbook symptom of malnutrition.
Re:not being allowed to take the sacrament- as a young mother of 4 children age 6-newborn, with a husband who was incapable of keeping a job, we were unable to pay tithing. It took everything we had to survive, and even then needed help from the church to be able to eat. I wasn’t allowed to take the sacrament for YEARS. Why? Because I wasn’t supporting my husband and making sure we paid. It was absolutely, utterly humiliating. It never occurred to me that people in my ward would think it was related to sexual sin. It’s been 25 years, and the humiliation is still there. I haven’t participated in ANYTHING related to church in more than a decade.
40:18 when I was a young teen, on our way to school, a neighbor told me she had been up late and was tired. I asked why. She said her dad and a neighbor had been exorcising her of evil spirits. I asked why they thought she had this evil spirit. She said because she had fallen on the ground and started convulsing. Later on they learned she had a seizure disorder.
This was sort of a concept addressed in this Book A Spirit Catches You and You Fall Down about a Hmong family which a daughter that had epilepsy. I don't think their practices were anything like what you might see in Mourmon culture - depending on the girls/religion culture it might not have been cause for alarm, we can hope.
@@samanthas8340 I also knew a group of young adults who had their apartment exorcized bc of creaking in the walls; BYU students... Also a mom who regularly saw spirits surrounding her children... a couple who believed their gay son was actually possessed... a young infertile couple tortured by the cries of their as-yet unconceived spirit children begging to be allowed their turn on earth... a man who was sure his body had been taken over by someone else, and he was okay with that... too many stories to tell, some too disturbing for this forum. All mainstream Mormons.
Why can't they drink coffee? So stupid! It is about control.
😂😂😂 I don’t mean to laugh but this is wild
@@jencash9595 it's interesting, whichever Authority is in power determines how to interpret the word of wisdom at that point in time. When I was younger all caffeinated beverages were verboten. I have heard now it is okay to drink caffeinated sodas, and soda-specific businesses abound in Utah. I seem to recall the church owned stock in Coca-Cola or Pepsi back in the day. But the Mormon Word of Wisdom just says hot beverages if I remember correctly
Yes to your rant, John! The Mormon church REALLY needs to call out these extremist beliefs and behavior and denounce the book Visions of Glory. If they continue to remain silent on this, the church IS an accomplice to all of these crimes. It’s so disappointing that this even needs to be said. The church should have done this a long time ago, voluntarily.
Sounds like the Mormon Church is the perpetrator.
I believe that Kevin was manipulated by a cult leader AND that he’s an abusive and neglectful father, and is not safe around children, especially his.
I am not a Mormon so I don't know for sure I'm just asking. Is it possible that the doctrine on marriage is part of the problem too? Christian doctrine is that there is no marriage in heaven, but my understanding is that marriage is eternal in Mormonism. Is there a prioritization of spouses over children common in the church? Could that explain part of Kevin's apathy?
Personally, I think Kevin is an absentee father that just left all the parent stuff to Rubt because he was too busy with career and church callings. That is a theme in the church. Add in; Kevin doesn't look like he could fight his way out of a wet paper bag. He's told what to do and how to do it, and just accepts it.
He was big ego
He’s been humbled
He’s broken
This is so similar to my childhood. 1970s
I thought that “The visions of Glory” was known to be an occult novel?? Why are so many mormons suddenly interested in the occult?
I've said this before and I'm going to keep saying it - I hope every victim of Jodi's and every other Mormon sanctioned by the Church seek relief through civil litigation against their abuser AND the 100 BILLION dollar net worth Church of Latter Day Saints!!
Smartest comment yet!
What a nightmare. Utah itself needs to be highly observed on a national level for the sake of all. Their laws are inadequate.
That's bc most of all the legislators are LDS.
I agree with you. Good laws may be on the books, but they’re ignored by certain LE when LDS doctrine differs. The only way to break up the corruption in the Theocracy of Utah would be via federal involvement. I sometimes think it’s why Utah Senators want to defund the FBI & other federal LE in favor of local Brown Shirts. Brown Shirts like the “sheriffs” who stand behind GOP candidates at their rallies.
Let's not forget how badly the children were failed by local authorities. Members of the community tried to report Frankes several times even before Jodi phase. Nothing happened. Police came for the welfare check, children would not come to the door and the police left it at that! Megyn Kelly played the call of their oldest daughter calling services in 2020. On the call, she says she knows other people called them, too.
Utah should not be a state.
Yeah where was CPS?
Regarding their last point: "how many Mormons do this to their children that we don't know about" This is very true. A lot of parents followed Jodi's and Ruby's teachings through connexions, agreeing that children don't deserve any privacy, "their world needs to become very small", children need to take responsibility from when they are 2 years old etc
The abuse the Franke kids suffered on camera was easily an average Tuesday at my Mormon family's household. The oldest son had his bed taken away as punishment; I was thrown out to an old shop in the dead of winter to sleep as punishment.
My God😢😢
THE HORRORS of what has been and still is excepted is astounding. The generational abuse and traum is heartbreaking. I come from mormon pioneers, both sides of the family. I am also the first one to legitimately leave the church. Crazy
I remember seeing Jodi pretending to bow down to children on the disgusting Connexions broadcast. Ruby nodding along and professing children are worshipped in today's society. Absolutely revolting.
@@rebeccacall7348 On camera. Imagine what happened off camera given the fact that Ruby has stated that being on camera helps to control herself with her kids.
I’d like to point out something that I’ve not heard ANY of the people covering this story mention. Ruby and Jodi had been telling the kids how they (the kids) were going to end up in jail because they were so bad. When Russell asked the neighbor to take him to the nearest police station, he wasn’t asking for help. He was asking to be arrested. ☹️ Just like when he wrote that note in pebbles, saying he was heading to jail and would call when he got there.
It was also a plea for help. At one point, "R" (according to Ruby's journal) told Ruby: "I would rather have a glass of water than you as my mother". Ruby and Jodi told him that drinking water was "bad" unless and until he had permission. He basically was saying, "fine, then I will be bad...because I need water to live." In the situation with the police, he was basically saying that he would rather face whatever the police would do to him for being "bad"...than continue to deal with what his mother was doing to him.
@@TEAM__POSEID0Nso heart breaking 💔 😢
Hidden true crime did mention that in their last Saturday live.
Jodi and Ruby had also created the delusional lie the R had committed SA (which is Jodi’s favourite move against males).
Jesse had said that they believed the lies Jodi told them, R might very well have felt the same.
The Dad Challenge podcast covers this, and picked up on that detail. He discusses the pebbles etc.
The shame that Jodi drove into these kids is despicable.
As a therapist working in Australia with a lot of clients who are childhood survivors of abuse - this case is so upsetting for me to learn about. Thanks for your hard work guys. And love your passion John- you don't need to calm down!
And we wonder why so many kids raised Mormon end up with anxiety, depression, PTSD!
And on top if that. lot if the "demon possessions" are often natural direct reactions to abuse or ptsd. Or just basic human empathy, because when I hear people like Matt Walsh talk about just anything. I feel the rage inside me up and I can just hear them.. see that the devil reaction to god's truth, can't handle it so it rages. Can't imagine how triggered it is for people with ptsd.
This comment here 🙌 and then add that the church’s solution for these mental health issues is that you need to dive deeper into the religion as a cure 🤦🏻♀️
That's me....I broke away moved to Oregon my life is so much better!
They do? Wow
Or dead
My mother attended a Mormon church run boarding school (in NZ), during the 70s, and I remember her telling me a story of being in the dormitory one night.. another girl from a room down the hall came into her room one night, pale white like she’d seen a ghost, and was terrified to go back to her own room. My mum and the other girls in her room went to investigate, and my mum told me that she felt a “definite evil presence” in the other girl’s room. They went and fetched the dormitory parents, and the “Brother” went in and “rebuked the evil spirit and cast it out of the dorm”…
Definitely mainstream belief.
Glad to see someone finally address the “elephant in the room” what is the connection between Ruby, Jodi and the Mormon church? The people mentioned in the journal (who they were meeting with), are they untouchable??? Not accountable???
AVOW , A Voice of Warning is the community of these people. They meet with Jodi Hildebrandt as a counselor and read “Visions of Glory” as a handbook of fear. SEE MIRMON stories and Mormon Discussions,
Tim Ballard/OUR
Jodi H
Ruby F
Lori V
Chad D
Adam PClark
And ALL THE OTHERS IN THEIR 😮
CONGREGATIONS.
I worry about the two middle girls, they didn't seem to suffer the same physical trauma but witnessing trauma and being used as an enabler or flying monkey is grotesquely damaging. I wonder how manipulated their thinking was.
I was wondering the same thing. Why didn't they tell someone? Were they just glad it wasn't them? At least they got to eat with creepy Pam.
@@ZSC92 If it only were that simple! The two middle girls would have already been heavily indoctrinated so they would have believed that the two youngest siblings actually were evil and that they deserved all the punishment. At the same time, they wouldn't have stopped loving their siblings and they'd felt sorry for them, but they'd also be afraid of them because they were told they were evil. The girls would have wanted to help them but felt guilty about it, they would have lived in constant fear and been absolutely terrified of their mother and Jodi, they'd have hated both women but also accepted their authority, they would have been terrified of becoming evil themselves, of being discovered that they were also evil, they would have prayed for their own lives and for their sibllings and the world would have been a horrible, terrifying and very dangerous place. Those girls were victims of a different type of abu$e and they'll need ages to regain some of their sanity, trust and the sense of security. There were reports that in the begining they were with Shari but that they kept running away so I don't know who has the custody of them now. Hopefully it is not Kevin or anyone else from either of their parents' families.
@@gaiagreen2690 I'd add Pam to the mix of people they'd be afraid of crossing, but it seems they were brainwashed to think police, CPS, etc. are evil.
Good show. Some feedback from one viewer.
1. Loved seeing someone who knows nothing about Mormonism schooled through this kind of story . As a never Mormon living in Utah, I learned some things through your education of the guest.
2. I appreciate having the journal entries read versus being summarized. I think it’s better not to gloss over the atrocities to save time. There are plenty of channels that do this. Details matter.
3. Side note: I loved the episode where RFM read some of the journal entries. I would love to see the whole journal read and discussed thoughtfully, as you started to do. Even if it was over the course of several episodes.
4. Lastly, thanks for everyone’s contribution to this show. I am grateful for your time and efforts.
These two both are also Bigly supporters of iQ45’s violence.
Dr. John's podcasts are definitely the best and most informative.
I agree. The podcast lost a lot of power when the journals were summarised.
I haven't seen anyone catch this but in her statement Ruby said she wanted Kevin to have the kids "to finish the work we started." And she has a long track record of speaking in code about the disgusting abuse they have put their children through. I guarantee that "finish the work we started" means more horrific abuse for those poor kids.
I keep dreading that some will have multiple personalities like many abused kids. SYBIL
@@ZSC92 I hear you, friend. I hope they can get the support they need/deserve and really good trauma therapists. I can speak from experience that there is hope for trauma-induced disorders including DID, the past still hurts but we can recover and heal. ❤️
@zoinks2607 just no therapists commissioned with the LDS Church
He also specifically says "keeping truth in the family", which was connextions whole thing, the "truth". I really believe he knew more than he claims
Thanks for your comment, I missed that detail. Now I am TRULY terrified that he'll get the custody back! Can we do anything about it? Are there petitions to stop Utah's mormon judiciary from giving Kevin the custody back?
The church is really good at making specific rules about what members can wear, drink, and even how loud they can laugh. How hard would it be to make a rule about not using fasting as a punishment, and never doing anything to cause pain or injury to a child? It would be the bare minimum of decency, yet they haven’t done it.
The church didn't make up these rules, Joseph Smith did.
It’s not the church- it’s a demonic cult.
@@ElijahsMimi one in the same
Did Joseph Smith say how long a man’s hair can be or how many piercings a person can have? He didn’t even interpret the word of wisdom as the church does today. Read the history of the church and you will find a lot has changed since Joseph Smith. I am 66 years old and a lot has changed in my time, like black men being given the priesthood in 1978 (when I was in college). Don’t you think the church leaders could make some rules to protect children? Is that asking too much?
@@Wren402 your so called church is a blasphemous heretical cult.
I had an “exorcism” performed on me as an investigator by well meaning missionaries before joining the church that I consented to. This was in the late 90’s. I was experiencing severe anxiety and depression at the time and tbh, thought it’d be great if just a simple evil spirit could be cast out and have problems solved! Embarrassing to admit now of course. Thanks for emphasizing the point that this is a current lived experience for many mainstream mormons.
I live in Salt Lake City & have for 25 years. I married into a mormon family. My husband is not a practicing mormon. These people are absolutely insane.
I grew up going to Pentecostal, then Baptist, and finally non-denominational and I was taught many of these things.
I was terrified of speaking any fears aloud, because Satan or a demon may be listening and if I were fearful that meant I wasn't fully trusting God so my fears would come true.
I was also terrified of possession into adulthood. Even the non-denominational church I attended would "cast demons out" of people.
Until I started watching this video, I had forgotten how much anxiety religion used to cause me.
I'm so thankful my daughter won't have to have the same experience.
Exactly! Concern about demons and possession are pretty central to Pentecostalism and even evangelicalism to some extent (these categories overlap in places). All these movement influence each other. Even if I didn't know people who cast out demons in my evangelical experience there was alot of concern about demons and influence of evil spirits. The reaction of the lady in the podcast shows a general ignorance/unawareness of breadth religious movements--its not just Mormonism. And these religious movement impact each other. Pentecostalism is one of the fastest growing movements in the world and there is certainly a preoccupation with demons and possession. And although the growth of the religion is fastest in regions like sub-Saharan Africa or South America but make no mistake, Pentecostalism is originally a US movement
Thank you for covering this. Imagine the boy had actually been caught by Jodi in time, before he had managed to alert the neighbour, those children would eventually have been left out on some private property in the desert. They surely would have died there. It doesn't bear thinking about. 😢
It screams Vallow all over again.
Never religious, but always thought the whole LDS faith was built on a pile of lies. I am so glad you did this episode. I am kind of a true crime junkie and have been wondering about Mormonism because they sure show up in the true crime genre a LOT.
I sent John an email about the Netflix show The Program asking him to watch it and hopefully do a podcast about the involvement of Mormonism in these camps for "troubled" teens.
I’ve watched every second of all coverage of this. My heart hurt for John in this in a really big way. That doesn’t take away from the victims of this crime. But I could feel the pain emanating from such a deep place. I was raised Baptist. I’m fascinated by religious wounds, because I have deep ones. And I still believe in god. I appreciate how this channel is honest and not demeaning.
I am embarrassed that I was ever a part of the Mormon church. I was raised in the LDS church. I do not know what happens after we die, but if I ever do see my parents again, they are going to get a big piece of my mind for raising me in it!!
The Mormon Leaders have hurt a lot of people😊
I’ve been waiting for MSP to cover this. Mainstream coverage has been woefully inadequate because so much their interpretations are uninformed about LDS culture, especially the fringe apocalyptic groups. They misinterpret food storage, safe rooms, etc.
like the part in kevin’s second interview when kevin talks about Ruby going to Mexico for “drúgs” (medicine) for their emergency kit! i thought wow… what a mormon thing to do 😂
I'm interested in knowing more about food storage and safe rooms. The concepts are foreign to me.If one has an abundance of food, shouldn't he/she give that food to the needy? Wouldn't God want that?
@@pattihill7244you’d think so. But in my experience (exmormon, living with a giant LDS family though) Mormons are more concerned for their own family than the needy. The church itself hoards its wealth, buying up properties all over the world. My cousins and aunt and uncle all have stocked full pantry rooms. The idea is the world is ending so you need to have food for your family that will last a while. Mormons believe we are in the end times. My extended family has taken it so far that they bought a huuuuge plot of land in Utah in the middle of nowhere where they are all moving soon because of this belief that the world is ending. I can’t wait for them all to leave honestly lol
Yes! Too many other TH-camrs covering this don't understand so much context behind Jodi and Ruby, and Jodi's history and connections.
@@pattihill7244 If you watch the MSP episode on Visions of Glory or the Hidden True Crime episode on Chad Daybell you will get a better understanding of what food storage is all about. It’s tied to beliefs about the “end times.” Some of it is mainstream LDS and some of it is part of the fringe movement connected to Visions of Glory.
The children soiling themselves….these kids had basically the perfect storm for gastrointestinal distress, severe abuse, periods of starvation and dehydration mixed with a periodic diet of beans and lentils and a desperation for fluids that made them go for pool and toilet water, intense sun and heat exposure….im surprised they had as much control as they did poor things.
As a mother I cannot wrap my head around this journal….i watch stuff about it over and over unable to comprehend that it’s actually reality. This podcast gave me more understanding of how they got to this level but it still disgusts me intensely.
Demonizing a person (or a category of people) is most often the precursor to a b u s i n g them. (Demonizing means de-humanizing.) Once Ruby allowed herself to literally view her own children as being demons/demon-inhabited bodies ("demonizing" them in the most literal sense), she not only de-humanized them, but she also no longer saw them fully or even mostly as her children and...therefore...anything she did to them, no matter how cruel, vengeful and mean-spirited, was justified because she was doing it to a demon. Anything goes when dealing with a demon-possessed body...even if it ultimately leads to the destruction of the body. N U T S !
I just love spicy John and cool Gerardo dynamic ❤. Great introduction video to those with no "Mormon" knowledge to really understand this case.
Helped me enormously.
It still doesn't explain why Ruby enjoyed causing her children pain though. Whenever there are cases of abuse where religion is behind it the perpetrators genuinely believe that what they're doing is for a greater good but still have empathy and don't want to cause pain. That's not the situation here with Ruby. Perhaps Jodi might believe in this stuff since it's how she makes money but Ruby definitely didn't believe in this possession nonsense. It was a tool and cover since religion is protected. So she knows that if she ever gets caught she can always get out of any serious consequences by using religion as a shield. And it worked. Everyone else who has discussed Ruby's journal in depth just sees it as her journal but here it's not just Ruby's journal it's Ruby's Mormon journal instead, suggesting that she isn't entirely responsible for her actions but rather Mormonism is.
Why did she keep such a detailed journal if not to relive the pain and suffering she inflicted. Much like a serial killer keeping trophies.
John explains that all Mormons are taught to journal from a very young age. John showed a large stack of his own journals.
Ruby's journaling struck me as disgusting too, so heartbreaking!!!
On an 8 passengers episode Shari read out bits of the journal Ruby kept as a teenager. Ruby explained that her father had given her her 1st journal when she was 5 years old. She said he asked her to write in it every day and Ruby had done so since. I wonder if Ruby hoped to get back to Jodi's before the cops and burn the journal.
It’s apart of Mormon culture! John shows all his childhood and college journals in the beginning of the episode
🤮
It really reads like it. 🤢
Thank you John Dehlin for these discussions. They are so important. You don't need to calm down, this is crazy human behavior that needs to be told.
I'm only an hour in but I can't believe it wasn't mentioned that.....Not only were high officials meeting with Jodi, the church had also been very directly supporting her by sending church members to her for "counseling" and it was in fact the MAIN source of her giant income (according to Jesse).
She even had her psychology license suspended for a time for sharing information with the Bishop of one of her patients!! She violated HIPAA.
I'd like to remind people that all of Jodi's victims have admitted that they made FALSE confessions to get the torture to stop.
With Ruby even if her children confessed she'd still torture them. A completely unwinnable situation.
@OmEvul1415 The children admitted to making up confessions as did Kevin and Jessi Hildebrant. It didn't matter true or false (how would Ruby know?)
@@ElijahsMimi That's true. But it seems with Ruby based on her journals that the goal wasn't for the kids to do better or change. Jodi's niece and others said that once they confessed it would stop. When E and R did everything she wanted and said everything she wanted them to say, confessed to whatever she accused them of, even making sure that their facial expressions and body language were how she insisted they must be, she would accuse them of manipulation and punish them for doing everything she wanted. Ruby wanted to torture them for her own sadistic satisfaction and had no intention of stopping. Jodi's niece said that people did see her. Ruby and Jodi abused them so much that they knew that if anyone saw them, they'd be arrested for abuse. Things escalated when those two psychopaths joined forces. Lori and Chad 2.0
@OmEvul1415 Yeah they're both nuts and deserve to be where they are.
I distinctly remember being told in youth Sunday school classes and YW lessons that “Satan would love to have us.” I had horrible nightmares growing up and was always worried there were evil spirits just waiting to catch me doing something wrong so they could have power over me.
I'm truly sorry you experienced that.
I did too. The nightmares were so intense.
I think Russell may have been wanting to call the police on himself because he thought that it was his fault and had done something wrong. He had to know it couldn’t be much worse if at all. He had no idea about the unknown to him, but he wanted to face it. Both of them thought it would be a relief to be anywhere else.
The demonic nightmares I experienced is nothing compared to what these babies have to endure. PTSD is awful.
@@RendaJane it's heartbreaking
This too must be brought out. It deserves exploring and reporting!!
Catholics are taught this as well.
I was the 6th of 9 children in a very Mormon family. When I was 10, my dad questioned some things that we were taught. We were all x communicated. Then systematicly shunned by our friends and family. We couldn't b happier!!
Children aren’t excommunicated for their parents asking questions. Your parents probably took their kids off the records
oh good. was waitig for this. I hope you will also talk about the Pen Papers - ie Jody's revelations.
were those ever recovered??
@@Grace-qe9xjI think so, but I don’t think they have been released
@@Grace-qe9xjLast I heard they were at Judge Jodi’s compound when E was rescued. It was a crime scene, so I would hope they were not left behind. But Kev seemed to believe that Shari “stole them and clothes for the kids” which he was adamant about her being arrested. Kev is still taking orders from Rubes the sadist. I would love to know where they are.
My understanding is that police found the leather case Kevin described (shown on body cam), but there were just empty blue file folders inside, not the actual writings. Considering they took Ruby's journal, I don't think they would have just left them behind.
Pam Bodtcher knows where they are!
The Mormon “church”, in my opinion, caused most of this. The “church” did more than just talk about demonic possession. They referred couples and families to Jodi knowing her “practices” were unethical. They were aware of Jessie’s mistreatment by Jodi but ignored it and continued to recommend Jodi. We all heard from Jessie how much money the Mormon “church” gave Jodi for “counseling” families when all she was doing was tearing families apart. So when is the Mormon church going to compensate all these victims? Why are they getting a free pass in all this? As for Ruby’s performance for thanking everyone in the court room….I knew she meant none of it. Just read her journal entries and listen to her jailhouse phone calls. Ruby sees herself as a misunderstood victim.
@lizhoward9754: ruby and Jodi will now believe they are martyrs.
I almost skipped this because I've seen other coverage. WOW! I am so glad I watched this one. I have painful memories of witnessing a friend's home life. It was nothing compared to this! I had blocked some memories. My brother used to hold me under water in the pool. My family thought we were just playing. I wasn't playing. I have a phobia to this day of water in my face. To have a loved one, not to mention a parent, do this is horrifying. 😭
I understand, this happened to me too.
Listening to the police interview with Mr. Franke reminded me of Adam Steed's horrific story. The plan to kick out the husband succeeded again, and he trusted them. He's been trained to trust and follow authority without questioning, like many in this church.
It is so important to call out the role of main stream LDS teachings in these horrific murders and child abuse. The church does not get a pass on this.
I’m Australian and don’t follow any religion. The crazy teachings of church causes so much damage….
Yes
Not mainstream teaching in church.
@@doreen5674 listen carefully
It worries me that these religions are creeping in here (Australia) more and more. I cannot think of a Religion that is not dangerous and harmful. Look at America now where people think hate, intolerance and racism makes you a good christian.
I'm Australian too and it's really hard ( although I am getting there) to understand the hold of religion in the US.
I was so hoping you’d cover this! Talking about the Mormon aspect of this case is so important, and I don’t think enough people realize what a big role the religion has played in all of this.
They will never denounce this type of doctrine. This instills fear, and fear is what feeds belief.
Sadly true. Many religions are fear based.
It’s true within entire cultures as well.
Fear was routinely used to warn people about precarious situations. Many still prefer to use it but it can end up doing so much harm.
The breaking wheel was an important part of religion back in the day. People don't want to worship the right god? Oh, he called and said you need to suffer and repent.
People act like history does not exist. (not about you, though. I appreciate your statement.)
If they denounce this type of doctrine then people will just come up with a different way to excuse their evil.
Born and raised in salt lake city, ive been so thankful for your coverage of this story because it covers the Mormon perspective. Hearing that visions of glory is THAT HIGH UP on the best sellers list is so so scary.
So glad to see you all on for this episode! Was just talking with my (now adult) niece this morning about this case and about Julie. My brother and I grew up Mormon. Both left as adults. Unfortunately my brother (father of said niece and several other children) became a fanatic Baptist into Bill Gothard’s extreme teachings. Lots of religious abuse of the kids growing up. Brother and his wife have similar dynamic to Ruby and Kevin. Another similarity is that they believe in demonic possession, and only a couple weeks ago, were trying to call over pastors to “cast out demons“ from their youngest child who is 19 now. They actually believe this stuff being brought up with scrupulosity his whole life he hardly has a chance. He’s been brainwashed the whole time and infantilized. It breaks my heart as it is like pouring gasoline on a fire to tell someone their mental illness is really a demon, what they need is serious mental health intervention as schizophrenia and mental illness runs in the family.
Sadly my adult mentally disabled son took his life. There used to be a definite connection between the gut biome and the brain. I’m devastated he refused to eat anything meat, not even fish! The depression and the extreme emotional pain were palpable. We trued EVERYTHING through his early school years and I took care of him for the last decade. My
Life will never be the same, I’m devastated anyone who thinks mental illness is an ‘evil entity’ needs reeducation. This has got to STOP!
@@msmdare I’m so sorry that happened. Mental illness comes in all forms in varying degrees. None of it should be taken lightly.
I think what’s harder for me to accept is not just the abuse by these two evil women, but that it continued despite so many times the older children begging authorities to help. The neighbours must have known, family members had to have suspected because so many viewers complained about the punishments the children received - yet it continued and got worse . How has the dad not had to face any criminal action.? He lived at home when some of this was happening and it’s hard to believe none of the children would have asked him for help. My heart is broken for these children 💔
I agree 100%! This had to have been happening while Kevin was still in the home. On the first jail house call with Ruby, she said, “You know what it’s like dealing with evil, you’ve seen it and know what it takes to fight it. Fighting it often looks like something it’s not.” And Kevin responded how much he liked Ruby bringing “truth” into their home.
I also believe that the only reason that Kevin distanced himself from Ruby and filing for divorce was to save himself. He still loved Ruby and said he’d support her no matter what. He knew he’d never get his kids back if he stayed with her. The whole family needs a lot of help!
So happy to see people talking about this! So many channels just say ‘oh they are evil and they ‘twisted’ religion’ without looking into the detail. Religious texts can create a culture where abuse can be justified. Exact sae thing can happen in Christian cultures too.
💯 !!!
There is a reason that (C)SA is so common within these religious groups…. Religious doctrines that vilify sexuality and place men (and men’s pleasure) above women are going to create sexual abuse and dysfunction.
It’s horrifying how some women who’ve been abused and subjugated their entire lives grow up and syphon their unhealed trauma onto their own children… 😭
There IS an epidemic of SA in these religious communities. These women (and men) need mental health support and financial support to leave their abusive husbands (and the abusive religious communities). But the answer to combatting the SA epidemic is proper sex ed and deprogramming from shame, so that a healthy sexuality can be formed. Trying to eliminate sexuality, repress it completely, make it shameful - this just guarantees that it’s going to become warped, create porn/sex addictions, and facilitates sexual predators. These religious women are trying desperately to heal and stop the cycle of abuse, but repression simply continues the cycle of abuse….
Thanks!
Do a podcast on Mormon "therapy" and apologetic "therapists", and any pitfalls to be aware of there, a la Jodi Hildebrandt.
Update: Mormon Discussions 8 Passengers' "Therapy" episode covers this extremely well already. I was unaware of it at the time, but roll back and find it.
I think they have already done several interviews with some of Jodi's client/victims.
@@michelecraig9658 Yes. I'm speaking more generally, just using Jodi as an extreme example. I'm hoping she's the extreme, but I'm sure there's some kind of spectrum from healthy apologetic therapy to, well, Jodi. This is therapy above a local bishop level I'm thinking of as well.
There are lots of Mormon therapists that are under some of the same delusions as Jodi. The guy who wrote Visions of Glory is a Mormon therapist & all these criminal Mormons in the neews right now have met with him!!
I bet there are more Jody Hildebrandts out there.
There was a guide published in late 1997, in the wake of the “satanic” moral panic, to help people avoid unethical therapists and questionable therapies.
Fringe therapies conducted by poorly trained and conspiratorial therapists started and drove the panic.
“Detachment therapies” where patients were isolated from their parents, siblings, friends, husbands and even children were common.
Several therapists engaged in unethical relationships with their patients. Many moved them into their house.
This 1997 guide still does a pretty solid job laying out when you should run.
It also reads like a checklist for everything Jodi Hildebrandt.
See below.
👇
There are very few sure things in life, but the following guide to recognizing an incompetent, immoral or quack therapist is about 99.9% guaranteed.
You should not trust your therapist, regardless of his or her reputation, fame, diplomas, certificates, etc., if
He or she tries to have sex with you or claims that having sex with one's therapist is "good therapy." Intimate sexual behavior, including erotic kissing, fondling or lovemaking, between therapist and patient is always inappropriate. (The Sexual Predator)
He or she tries to have you move in and do chores, keep the books, work the farm, have sex, etc. (The Exploiter)
He or she spends a lot of time during your sessions talking about his or her own personal problems, such as her husband's illness, his wife's frigidity, another patient's hang-ups, his sexual needs. (The Neurotic)
He or she requires as a condition for therapy that you cut off all relations with your spouse, children, parents and other loved ones. (The Cult Guru)
He or she claims to know what your problem is and how to fix it, even though no thorough history of you has been taken. (The Savant Idiot)
He or she claims that you must be hypnotized in order to discover either hidden memories or hiding entities which are causing your problems. (The Exorcist)
He or she specializes not in treating people for specific problems such as depression or anxiety, but rather in treating people as if all problems have an identical cause. (The Johnny-One-Note)
He or she claims to have a technique which works miracles or works like magic, curing those who had heretofore been considered hopeless. (The Miracle Worker)
He or she has a checklist which is claimed to be an excellent way to find out if you suffer from whatever the therapist specializes in, and you have enough checks to qualify. (The Scientist)
He or she requires as a condition for therapy that you accept certain religious, metaphysical or pseudoscientific notions. To have good therapy you should not be required to believe in God, reincarnation, alien abductions, possession by entities, inner children, Primal Pains, channeling, miracles, or any of the many pseudoscientific theories popular among therapists. (The New Age Pseudoscientist)
I am so disturbed and upset to learn the abuse was based on mainstream Mormon beliefs. And that the Church hasn’t publicly condemned Ruby & Jodi!!! How are they ever going to reform if they aren’t told by the church that it was wrong?? How are other like-minded Mormon parents going to know it’s wrong??
I wouldn't call it mainstream Mormon beliefs. We raised our children either the idea that they got to earth perfect and it was our goal not to screw them up. We gave them every opportunity possible for learning and exposure, LDS or not, unless there was a safety or legal worry. Our daughter went trekking in Nepal at 17. Those women are totally fringe to me. If a child has never had to manage themselves as a child how can they magically do it at 18-19-20 years old?
@@terrywells7896 What if you had a child that was on the autism spectrum, or had ADHD. They would respond oddly to you, maybe defiantly. Would you automatically think they are possessed? Would you need a priest to cast out their demons? Do Mormons even accept there are conditions like autism and adhd? I’m not saying R & E had such conditions, but what if they did? They might come across as disobedient when they are tired or upset or emotionally hurt. No person in this would is perfect. Only God is perfect.
Thank John for expressing the anger and horror that you and your viewers are feeling.
How anyone could hear this and NOT be outraged is mind-boggling
How many other children, somewhere in Utah, who cannot escape, are being tortured right now by people who believe the same?
Has anyone mentioned Debbie and Michael Pearl and To Train Up A Child? the "100 percent obedience with exactness" is one of their catch phrases . Its even shown in the Shiny Happy People documentary in a clip with Michelle Dugger training her youngest to recite that with a tone of joy. This book is just as rampant and dangerous as VOG, and extends to all fundamental religions.
I am not a conspiracy theorist in the slightest, but this is ALL connected and it is disturbing.
They have definitely covered that book in other episodes
@@smooth_pursuit I thought so, but between watching this and Cults to Consciousness I forget who has spoken about what. What a horror of a book. I actually found it on the bookshelf of my pregnant sister-in-law and am not ashamed to say I stole it and burned it. I am NOT for burning nor banning books; Except this one.
Are those the people who say you should pinch newborns that try to bite their moms during breastfeeding?
@@RatchetStrappedYou Go There!!! Strong work!!! High Five!!
As a never mormon who has followed this case, i found this really helpful and insightful.
Religious corruption has been a reality since there has been organized religions but facing it head on, like you all are doing is the best way to start to diminish it.
on my mission we were told to cast out evil spirits from homes where it was rumored that they did witchcraft. we were also told to ask if we can bless the houses of members. So essentially we were told to go around banishing evil from homes where there weren't members and give blessings to those with members.
Thank you so much for your continued coverage. Much love, Amy Jo
Thank you so much John and Gerardo for explaining the beliefs. It really helps in understanding things. It is absolutely horrendous what these children have endured. I agree, The Morman Leadership needs to call this behaviour out. Their silence is like they are condoning it.
I definitely agree with this, even (or especially) as a current LDS member.
well if the internet does one thing well - it's to shed light on religious BS. After watching the interview of the husband, all i can say is dont be that guy. Focus on the best interests of your kids. When your kids mom cuts you off from your kids, you shut off the part of emotional brain with respect to the mom....you hire a lawyer, you get a parenting evaluation, and you establish a parenting plan.
Where the little boy tried to keep himself from getting “too excited” at letting his sister push him in the pool KILLED my heart.
what does that mean?
1:17:46 this is one of the worst parts of the journal for me to hear. E was terrified of Jodi but still had hope that her mother would snap out of it and see that she was torturing her innocent child. The way Ruby wrote about it as if it was manipulation. So tragic and in so proud of those children for surviving.
One long time 8 passenger fan said ruby always hated Eve since she was born. Eve is who went hungry as a 5 yr old in kindergarten.
@ZSC92 the problem there is Jodi was already the family therapist when that happened. The younger a child is, the more difficult developmentally it would be to conform to the "discipline" strategies Jodi recommended. I think Ruby treated all her kids as dolls to collect and possessions to show off in content long before Jodi, but I don't think she was physically dangerous and dehumanizing until Jodi arrived. She was always selfish and made dumb parenting choices but Jodi saw someone obsessed with appearances and belonging that could be easily manipulated.
Russell was on the way to sepsis. His ankles were in severe shape.
Feel like I have been waiting for this forever. I so appreciate your time doing this
Aside from the obvious horrors within the journal, something bothered me that I couldn't quite lay my finger on. Then when it got to the statement of letting them think they won, and "POP!!!" as Ruby writes it, it hit me. She's a sadist, this is a game to her. Unless I missed something, she never expressed reluctance at having to subject her children to this. And as I started to entertain that I was wrong about her intentions and she believes she's casting out the demons, I came to a creepy realization. The only times she references the demons, is when she's speaking directly to the children. She writes about the children being rebellious, never the demons influencing them to rebel. She speaks about what her and Jodi did to the children, not to the demons they're trying to cast out.
100% - if Ruby was only brainwashed to think the children were possessed and that this needed to be done to remove the evil spirits and turn them back on a path towards goodness, then a normal parent would still feel agony about the children having to go through it. I would expect to see things like "It's awful that this is the only way to remove the evil spirits from these children, and my heart weeps for them every day, but we must win this fight for the children to be well again, to save their souls. Jodi has received revelations from God and says there is no other way.", or anything to show a single speck of sympathy and understanding of the torture the kids are experiencing. And yet instead we get glee, and she, on her own, comes up with random ideas on how to inflict more pain and torture, such as putting on boots and kicking R, whipping both of them with a belt, handcuffing R's hands and ankles while he is on his stomach and then tying ropes between the cuffs so that his arms and legs are raised in the air, putting her hands tightly over his nose and mouth and saying she is doing it because she loves him, among many other things. These things are just pure sadism and have little to do with being brainwashed in Jodi's ideas.
I really see Jodi as effectively giving Ruby divine permission to let her freak side run wild. She always wanted to do these things but was held back by believing they were wrong and/or worries about the consequences she would face or due to pushback from other people. Once Jodi told her God says it is ok and the children need it for their own good, and there was no one else left to answer to, she let loose.
@@stephenreed9631 Exactly!! I can't believe they didn't realize that. It seems they really want to push the idea that this is all Jodi. Listening to former clients or victims of Jodi, they never mentioned having wounds and skin falling off. Ruby was torturing these kids for fun. Ruby got annoyed and angry when the children didn't respond to pain and started getting creative. Living with Jodi and having the ability to torture E and R everyday however she wanted was probably the happiest Ruby had ever been. That's why she was so angry when she was arrested because her toys were taken away.
The Roman Catholic church still does exorcisms, but there has to be extremely carefully vetting and discernment at a high level of the church. They find that almost all of the problems are related to mental health problems. Why does the LDS church allow any Tom, Dick, or Harriet decide about these matters?
It they hide and protect SA priest and nuns.
John you are 100% accurate. Casting out demons is definitely main stream and current Mormon belief. We have family that still practice this weekly and sometimes daily. It is very unfortunate that this form of gaslighting is still occurring. Thank you for staying strong and bringing it to the public. Keep up the great content. Thank you
With all due respect, I've been an LDS member all my life and my husband has been Bishop and I must say that I have never ever seen anyone try to cast out devils!! Ever!!! Maybe that's an offshoot church of the Chad Daybell variety? Also, the LDS church is the most popular church to persecute these days. But there are crazy, evil people in every church and culture. Its wrong to generalize. Doing so only adds to the hatred and violence in this world. Our church focus is to live by the most important commandments 1) Love God with all our hearts. 2) Love our fellow beings. Christ is our Savior and exemplar. Everything else are only appendages to these principles. At a time, where persecution has never been so high, my husband and I, as senior missionaries, know that we have more people coming into our church because they find that after they do deeper, less one sided investigation, that much of what they read or hear is hog wash. I would encourage everyone to seek out a true temple going believer to find out our real beliefs and not rely on someone who has an axe to grind or other nefarious motives. Love and Peace to all!
@satu214 I would very much enjoy hearing your Mormon story and hearing your experience as a Mormon and the wife of a Bishop. John is always looking for Bishops and their families to share their story on the podcast. When can John contact you or your husband to be on the show to share your story?
Now I believe I know why Kevin went to retrieve the electronics from the home, so he would prevent the authorities to know the extent of his involvement in all this. I guess that by then the police had already seized the Ruby's journal. I guess he wrote his in his computer or ipad, right?
Agree 100%. And it makes me sick that they have put those children with him.
@@mothersgauri4137they kids are with him?? 😢 I thought foster care or other family?
@@mothersgauri4137the kids are in foster care. Kevin might be able to regain custody but as of now he does not.
@@momofallcats Thank you for clarifying. I had heard conflicting reports, but after looking up recent reports now, it appears you are right, which is a huge relief. I guess Kevin is still trying to convince people that he should have them back. I hope to God that won't happen.
@@sarahh6043 Yes, thank you. I had understood from some reports that he had them. But what I found now seems to indicate he does not and that all the under age kids are in protective services. Thank you for clarifying. Apparently he is trying to get them back. I hope that does not happen.
Julie's face as she hears more about Mormonism is amazing. Her reactions highlight how weird the church is, which we don't get until we get out.
WOW - When you held up those journals, I was blown away!!!
I wonder if Jodi kept journals and if so, were they incriminating. Also, I hope someone finds the so-called pen papers, so they can be debunked.
Hello to Julie (and y'all, of course) from a fellow Canadian, on the opposite coast. 👋
Thank you all for covering this. Your work is SO important.
I noticed a very “mainstream” well known successful LDS entrepreneur (family also had a huge Instagram influencer account) on the back cover of Visions of Glory giving their recommendation to read it. 👀 Yet people want to say it is just fringe members with these ideas.
It’s one book I wish we could burn lol ESP after Chad and Lori
the mcknights? u can say who, i promise they wont get u for a youtube comment lol
Props to Julie and Gerardo for carrying on the episode when John had tech issues. You two have great chemistry and didn't miss a beat. This is a heavy and important episode, but I want to make sure you two knew how well you did. John, you're excellent at selecting guests!
Love Julie’s channel (and of course you too John!)
Julie interviewed a guy named Carl who had been a UT Mormon TH-camr and knew the frankes personally. Fascinating connection!
I appreciate John's passion, I don't view it as yelling at all. I feel like sometimes the reverent agenda gets pushed off onto John. Keep that passion, reverence is NOT appropriate for this topic. I feel like people should be angry and passionate, and loud about stopping this fanatical abuse of children. Yell it from the rooftop John.
Yes!!!!
Shaving E's hair was a way to strip her identity. At least that's what Jesse said about Jodi doing it to her.
Just like they did in the nazi concentration camps!
Yes, you can hide behind hair. You can also toss it around, which I think Ruby saw as manipulative.
*them. Jessi uses they/them pronouns.
Seems more like Ruby did that so E wouldn't run away. She'd probably feel very self conscious about her hair or lack of it.
Thank you for exposing this!! I pray for the children to heal!! I pray that that board of parole/ pardons will keep these evil women in prison for a very long time!!!
I've noticed that both Jodi and Ruby really never even define any of the "transgressions" with any specificity. It seems clear to me that whenever they wanted to t o r t u r e the children, and feel "justified", they just made a general accusations of "disobedience", "lying" and "selfishness" or they would just make up arbitrary and unreasonable things that the children needed to accept (e.g. standing in the sun for hours or going without water). Even worse, the obvious results of the t o r t u re and a b us e ... such as R wetting his pants or E "fidgeting" ... are then declared by Ruby or Jodi as being the consequences/manifestations of the "evil" in the children. If anyone was possessed by demons, it was Jodi and Ruby (not that I believe in that...but their own behavior best illustrates what they believed regarding the signs of possession).
Ruby said in one of her videos that any of her punishments lasted at least six months and that the improvement had to be in every area of their lives, not just in what had occasioned the punishment.
It's called SADISM.
I got chills when Ruby told her son "I will love you until the DAY YOU DIE!" She knew he wasn't going to live through this torture. For half a second, I thought she was an actual mom and was about to say, "I will love you until the day I die." I would die before I allowed my son to be treated like that. I hope that every day in jail, they are put through some of hell they inflicted on these children. I pray she comprehends what be meant when he said he would rather be in jail than have her as his mom.
Actually, Ruby said to R "I will fight you until the day YOU die!" Ruby also wrote " R told me he'd rather have a glass of water than me as his mother" She knows why he said that since she wrote it down and reflected on it.
I’ve been looking forward to hear your take on all this. This gets worse and worse the more we learn. I hope Ruby and Jodi’s cell mates get to hear a lot of this. Trust me, Jesus had nothing to do with these two woman.
I think some isolation would be a fitting correction too!
I think alot of women in prison are allowed to watch youtube on their tablets?
I happened to read Ruby's journals on Reddit the same week I read The Witches: Salem, 1692 by Stacy Schiff, and was taken aback at the direct connection between the two. The Puritanical teachings of 1692 New England have been passed down to *some* modern day Mormons.
I think a lot of people don’t understand or accept their own religious beliefs. It’s either watered down to be palatable or the more extreme things are said by a charismatic preacher character and it feels “good” or righteous in the moment, but when you state it soberly it sounds bat sh*t crazy. That’s the majority of religions I’d wager.
Definitely. Christian here and unquestionably most ppl don't seem to realize the Christianity is radical pacifist anarchism.
How can these children ever recover if they remain part of LDS when so much of their abuse is condoned by the church?
I agree! I know the goal is to eventually have the children be reunited with family however this family is despicable and disgusting. The grandparents are asking the children to forgive their abuse mother, the aunts/uncle are selfish money hungry leeches and Kevin is incompetent. These kids are better off being placed with a non- Mormon healthy, safe, and supportive family.
Long fasting can also cause loose stools, I believe, especiallyif they water and little food. If you don't let a child use the toilet except on your schedule, you're just asking for a mess.
It can. Malnutrition can definitely cause stomach issues.
I … I don’t know.
I know Jodi uses a lot of tactics from the troubled teen industry and I can’t help wondering about tactics some wilderness therapy camps use.
One wilderness therapy my area (which I hope will be shut down soon) has a confirmed/documented history of not providing campers with filtered or boiled/distilled water when they are in the woods for weeks.
Their local health department (per news reports) has confirmed that the water often given to campers is full of bacteria that cause severe stomach upset, and parasites that cause stomach upset/discomfort/itching.
The campers have to drink this water and use it to cook their food in on camping stoves.
Food is often withheld as punishment too and when the kids do get to eat their stomach is in a mess.
I couldn’t stop thinking about this when I saw passages from Rubys journal that said things like “mop water 7”.
Why is the mop water numbered?
Why were they constantly saving mop water to pour on the kids?
I’ve wondered about other thing said in Ruby’s journal that could possibly point toward R experiencing discomfort and itching
She looked at potential signs of discomfort/chronic itching (the state of his fingernails, and I’ll leave it at that in hopes of not being too graphic) while claiming it was a sigh that he was possessed.
* In case it isn’t clear - I can’t stop wondering if they were also doing something to the food/water.
What they did to the kids is incomprehensible. It’s never going to make complete sense.
I just keep thinking about the fact that the kids getting food or water for themselves was deemed “stealing”, and therefore punished.
A lot of effort was put into making sure sustenance only came from others.
That is a big change coming from a mom who notoriously made the kids pack their own lunches.
Yes, if you go without food for a long time your body forgets to digest properly so food goes right through once it's reintroduced.
I went down Julie’s playlist on TikTok yesterday,the whole thing! She brought me here
Also, remember that R and E were not together, R thought two sisters were in the house and had not been with E for 30 days!
The prosecutor said they were isolated.
I’m so glad you guys are covering this journal stuff from a Mormon angle- as always your insight is important!
I do agree the church should denounce it!!!
Exmormon convert here, out since 2015. Re weeding cemetery: as a community project, we used to go and weed and tidy up local cemeteries. Whole families would do that on a Saturday, and also paint play centres and nurseries, distribute food etc. Service projects like that. This is in South Africa. But as a non-mormon when I was a child, we also raked leaves and helped with yard-work. But these people are on a whole other level, too shocking for words. Hope the kids get all the love and healing their hearts can hold. ❤
Great, thoughtful discussion as always 🌼🌻
I'm so glad to finally hear someone mention the middle two children! None of the news reporting or the court case did we hear what the two middle children went through being traumatized and brainwashed by watching their younger siblings be brutally abused and the craziness around these 2 evil women and their thought processes. These two middle children may not have been physically abused because of their age but they were definitely mentally abused! One of them was pretty defiant with the police when they originally took them into protective custody. So they were definitely involved in this craziness!
This is the first time I’m hearing they were present for the abuse of their siblings. I’m not sure what they went through but in the case it was mentioned that Russell and Eve were denied food in the home and when they were given food it was plain while everyone else had flavorful food. I don’t want to place blame on those girls because I’m sure they were brainwashed, maybe even sacred however they could have done more for their siblings. Shari did more for her siblings and she wasn’t even aware to the extent of the abuse! I hope the state never lets Russell or Eve near any of the family especially the extended family save for Shari. They are all dangerous and brainwashed fanatics and these kids wouldn’t be safe around them.
Well John, it sounds like you have an article to write for the New York Times, Vanity Fair, or The Atlantic. I think someone does need yo give the background to this and how it is baked into Mormonism.
I worry about how corrupted the two middle girls are because they not only witnessed the torture and abuse of their younger siblings, but they escaped the same punishment by being compliant and allowing the brainwashing. What damage has this done to their character and conscience? And at such a vulnerable age! Adolescence is when our character is fully developed and theirs has been deeply warped. I fear that they may not get the therapy and support that they need because they escaped the worst of the physical damage.
I am also worried for the middle girls because they may end being just like their mother.
Right before Ruby was arrested she asked a friend (Pam) to pick up 2 of her other daughters. Pam said OK and that she had cleaning for the children to do as she was expecting company. I thought that very strange- that you would expect your friend’s daughters to clean your house.
Great point, I thought it was weird, too
Apparently this was going on for a while where Pam would sometimes pick them up or even pulling them from work early to clean her home.
It's amazing how much this resonates. Thank you Jon for pushing and continuing to remind us that there is a huge mainstream basis for all of this torture and abuse. It is absolutely mainstream.
The term “Protestant Work Ethic” exists for a reason. I get John’s point at 1:59:25 . Valuing hard labor isn’t always religious… But Christian religions REALLY value hard labor. Going all the way back to early American puritans.
As a kid who grew up Christian, this led me to believe:
Rest/pleasure = sin,
Suffering = God is happy with you.
Yep and Puritanism has such a chokehold on the “American spirit”
@@froggie9871 SO true. American “Grindset” culture is often moralizing, seemingly bc of its puritanical roots.