Frans de Waal & Yuval Noah Harari - Empathy, Ecological Collapse & Humanity’s Future Challenges
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 10 ม.ค. 2022
- Watch primatologist and ethologist Frans de Waal speak with historian and philosopher Yuval Noah Harari, about animal vs. human behavior, our future on this planet, and much much more -- in a conversation moderated by Bartosz Węglarczyk.
Originally featured in the Freedom Games conference in September 2021.
Congratulations to Bartosz Węglarczyk for moderating so well this fascinating conversation. R.I.P Frans de Waal.
I'm so, so happy to have been born in the 21st Century. I mean, I can listen to the world's brightest geniuses talk for free!!!
I know right !
They are pleased to contribute to humanity's advancement via their own .....L.
I’m so, so unhappy to have been born in Japan in the 21st century. No need for explanation….
❤
You can also become a genius for free. I believe that you would find that more pleasing
both these guys will never speak about one thing - the genocide of Palestinians. the vicious occupation and creation of the worlds biggest open air prison. Gaza... Anyways, so much for empathy and ecology business balls....
In my opinion Harary's book ''Sapiens'' must be read by every high school student. Harary is greatest historian and philosopher of the modern world .
Come on!!... He is good, but the greatest?? No, unless that's the only book you have ver read. Not even of the last ten years; though HE IS GOOD.
@@ggrthemostgodless8713 can you give some other recommendations?
@@danielhumphrey3836
Well, if you have read the "model classics" of the last 500 years, that's a good start. Have you read Nietzsche?? Mark Twain?
As far as sapiens, there is a great book titled "The Modern Mind" what about Orwell or Wells "The New Machiavelli".
I am NOT saying Harari is no good, he is ok, but not the greatest or the "modern era". In the channel with Lex Freedman there are a few historians "Hardcore History" comes to mind.
@@ggrthemostgodless8713 not challenging what you said about Harari i just can’t find much stuff written to that level around this era. That being said harari is much more concise and sees all sides of an argument more so than Dostoyevsky or Huxley IMO
I am from India. I just listen to Mr Harire as the Buddha of our time, the epitome of wisdom.
So satisfying and lucky to watch these beautiful minds interacting in the luxury of being at our homes with our recently acquired technology.
Kudos to the mediator for letting the guests speak without interference, good at his role as advancing he conversation.
I was going to write the same. The interviewer did not feel the need to interject himself but, instead, was satisfied in facilitating a very enlightening conversation. Bravo!
@@RKupyr
Seems so simple, right? Just speak as little as possible and shit the hell up, but most mediators cant do it... they have to show you how smart they are, how they can hold their own on the topic with the guest, the expert, so they ruin the intention or reason why they invited the expert!!
"I think you can be perfectly happy in an unfree situation." Thanks, Frans, that's transcendent talk.
I would imagine that both interviewees agree on the value of freedom (vis-a-vis wilful commitment, forced commitment, and other ways of sculpting a definition of freedom), even though the conversation ended with both men seemingly slightly at odds, only because "freedom" had not been clearly defined. But Frans' above statement does bring into question to what extent can people be happy (and how to measure that happiness?) under conditions that most would claim are certainly not free -- North Korean society maybe, or any country with laws.
biased statement because he spend a great amount of time with chimps in captivity, and propably feels responsible
What a delightful talk! Curiosity sign on Harari's face helps to keep me more humble.
I have always had a great respect to Mr. De Wall, especially after reading his books on atheism which seemed so much more nuanced and well thought-out than many other, more popular "New Atheism" books. I greatly enjoyed this conversation. Ciepło pozdrawiam!
Which book(s) are you referring to, Kabir?
@@njits789 "The Bonobo and the Atheist." There is do "Primates and Philisophers: How Morality Evolved".
Did the books mention that every time Atheism has been a country's "religion" that mass murders of their own citizens have been committed by governments? Russia 50 million. China 70 million
Yuval is amazing. His ability to get his point across in a succinct, interesting fashion is unprecedented 👍👍
Fully agree.
both these guys will never speak about one thing - the genocide of Palestinians. the vicious occupation and creation of the worlds biggest open air prison. Gaza... Anyways, so much for empathy and ecology business balls....
@@AudioPervert1 Didn't Israel offer the Palestinians a peace deal including land 4 times the size of Israel with massive oil deposits underneath?
Didn't the Palestinians say " we will only accept the death of all Jews and Israel being removed off the map, so no deal?"
Stop listening to MSM, pal.
- I am very surprised that such a godless and immoral person can fascinate you?
- He claims that man is an animal and believes in Darwinian evolutionary theory.
- That's hypocritical and completely absurd.
- Because such opinion is completely alien to a normal and sensible person, as a child of God.
God bless you.
Yuval Harari is still a better and clear thinker. He has this unique ability to make everything clear and simple--he is the greatest thinker in our times. I deeply admire him.
We have empathy and rationalizing which most animals don't have. There is massive differences.
It's a really great podcast between two of the most influential intellectual men the biologist primatologist Frans de Waal and the medievalist military historian Yuval Noah Harari in our time, who have the greatest books and researches, who we can learn from.
And their is also another great podcast of Frans de Waal with Jordan Peterson.
Thank you very much for this wonderful podcast.
Greetings from Germany.
Watching and listening tow brilliant minds discussing the very essential is such an enjoyment. Thank you very much for the great, useful and very informative video.
Brilliant minds???....Baabaa
@@dmm6341 i'm not very impressed either.
Such a cool meeting of the minds. Tha ks to everyone involved. We need more open debate nowadays
Another fascinating and in-depth discussion of two brilliant scholars. Yuval Noah Harari continues to warn of changes in the challenges of the future of humanity. He is the modern prophet.
Yuval, you're amazing to explain these terms. I'm listening. Thank you.
We are living in crazy times x100.
HI... I am a Mexican human being... ji.. and I am so impressed with your books... but more with From Animals into gods!!! Thats the book!!! and I am still trying to understand what does it mean to me, what do I do with all that information... and more... I don`t agree but it is true... I don`t like where we are... and where we are going!!!
Very insightful chill between the three homies, thank you pal! 🤙
Wonderful program and dialogue. Listening to great minds on TH-cam is one of the greatest things and it's free.
I can really appreciate this discussion. It's so hard to find people prepared to think intelligently instead of what seems like a default mode of judgmental ideals. Being a real self motivated humanitarian is hard to find. Awareness hopefully will inspire people to challenge their rigid unconscious belief systems, If they are able to internalise and become aware of their own bias.
Mr. Yuval Hararri, many of us would love to see you or meet with Sadhguru discussing enriching and enlightening us .. We're waiting. 😘 ♥ 🙏
Good idea,,,,But,,,first Sadhguru must read all books of Yuval Harari...
This is a great watch, thank you. I’m quite enjoying!
What a pleasure to listen to quiet and smart debate ! Even if there are no big revelations, it's interesting and stimulating for reflection.
Grateful right now 😊 for listening to great rightful speakers !
Very interesting discussion. They both shared their views in a very compelling way. Thanks Yuval Sir for uploading this valuable piece of knowledge..
유발 하라리 교수의 다양한 분야에 대한 관심에 감사드립니다.
늘 당신의 발언에 관심을 갖고 주목하고 있습니다.
한국인들의 사랑을 전합니다
Another fascinating (and sometimes difficult) conversation here with Frans de Waal - on "what's real?", "who matters (including non human sentient animals?)" and "how to make a better world?" th-cam.com/video/1uWQA335pU4/w-d-xo.html
Thanks.... it is great. New ideas and options for the future. I'm afraid he's preaching to the choir though, those who click are MOSTLY already on his side.
I hope for future conversations
Achei interessante o fundo falso do Frans de Waal
I love Franz De Waal's books.
Wow....love this...
Wud be wonderful if we could all have conversations like this.
Second listen, second beer, part 1 ...
Whoopee, time to kick back with a beer and some popcorn. Two of my favorite heavy hitters here. I've read and admire both, but Frans de Waal's TED talk puts him at the top of my list for researcher I'd most like to have a beer with. Formerly tenured, I also couldn't help but to crack a smile at the hints of Academia's petty politics peppering his pages. Damn, this beer is good.
11:00 Yeah, it is a complex system, and out tinkering is biting us back. Maybe out of time constraints, but 'eating bats'? I wish de Wall had mentioned Judy Mikovits or Kary Mullis here, and the corruption in science and academia. And Yuval has a good point, by definition, we are incapable of doing anything beyond our 'nature'. But such necessarily vague conversational terms can also be seen as a linguistic tautology.
As de Waal points out, altruism is perfectly natural when you go beyond the individual level. I am glad he pointed out the social Darwinism hidden in Dawkins' solipsistic screed. If one has ever been in love, or have given unconditional love to a newborn baby, altruism is as natural as a sunrise ... an emergent phenomenon of merging the 'I' into 'us'.
28:00, Yes, I agree with de Waal about in-groups and out-groups. And I disagree with Yuval about the possibility of avoiding extremes of a zero-sum game in embracing patriotism. Appointing the most qualified person to national level positions? Somewhat naive. At the top, it's all a game of thrones ... and just enough meritocracy in the lower classes to sustain the hierarchy as long as possible.
Yuval makes it clear that money, religion, sports, etc. are provisional social constructs. But I would say that 'rules' are different in degree rather than a unique quality from the games of chimpanzees. While de Waal points out chimpanzee games are not competitive, Jared Diamond points that children from small ethnic communities are shocked when suddenly placed in a 'modern' standardized public school system which emphasizes competition over collaborative games.
Any 'form' of empathy is a provisional social construct. Simple or complex. But I think Yuval, in extending the definition of empathy into those larger, abstract forms, especially beyond Dunbar's number ... has stretched the word to the point of uselessness. Nationalism as a form of empathy? I don't think so. Anyone here old enough to remember that 1969 pop hit made famous by 'Three Dog Night' - 'Easy to be Hard'? Check out the lyrics. Nationalism as caring for strangers? Nope. The modern nation state is only a few hundred years old. 'Cognitive empathy' is an oxymoron.
By now, the elephant in the room, for me, is linguistic relativism (the Sapir-Whorf hypothesis) ... language, logic, and mathematical models determine 'reality' as much as describes it ... like looking at the world through a screen window, but with the screen the only way to describe what we see. De Waal brushes up against this at 37:00.
By about 35 minutes in, I recognized the moral implications of exceeding Dunbar's number, Freud's narcissism of small differences, and the salience of those predisposed to be high in dark-triad behavior traits - the pathological narcissists, the machiavellian opportunists, and the morphologically defined psychopaths among us.
39:00 Yes, Yuval echoes Joseph Campbell here. The lack of a unifying mythos is one thing that divides people ... and a unifying mythos is necessary in groups larger than Dunbar's number. Below that number, we don't even need written languages ... we have the cognitive capacity to identify each other and relate to each other as unique individuals.
43:00 ... De Waal points out the short-term interests of people takes precedence. I am guessing this is a temporal equivalence of Dunbar's number.
44:00 Yuval is oversimplifying 'politicians as a group as either good or bad'. There is actually some valid research showing that institutional leaders (mostly corporate) tend to be higher in dark-triad behavior traits than the bulk of any population.
“10 percent of any population is cruel, no matter what, and 10 percent is merciful, no matter what, and the remaining 80 percent can be moved in either direction.” - Susan Sontag. The currently in-vogue Mass Formation Psychosis theory has it closer to 30% on both tails of a moral bell curve. But hell, even Plato talked about the weakness of democracies with the people's choice of sweet pastries over 'tough love' and harsh medicine.
45:00 ... 'Authentic' Politicians vs 'Responsible' Politicians? Hmm ... a bit naive, and mixed with the 'No True Scotsman' fallacy. But I agree with both ... specialized technocrats should not be in charge. Karl Popper, in 'The Open Society and its Enemies' tried to warn us of the implications of a technocracy with his experience of Nazi Germany. I defer back to my first paragraph in that anyone who aspires to 'responsibility' beyond Dunbar's number, and the dark-triads will eventually drive our species to self destruction.
The only two points I might hedge on Frans de Waal's views is that I would not put 'empathy' on the same level of abstraction as 'reciprocity'. I don't think human morality derived from the same empathy as in some other social animals ... I think morality IS 'empathy-driven' behavior. Rule-driven behavior (customs, traditions, rules, laws, and increasingly ... algorithms).
From about 50 minutes ... 'women will save the world', I don't think so. I am bit closer to Jordon Peterson and Bret and Heather (DarkHorse podcast). I have lived and taught in Japan for 39 years now, and I can assure you, those cute young things can be every bit as devious and vicious as any man.
I agree that men have had the advantage of privilege for most of history ... but I would say that women have been more empathy-driven from their position of marginalization rather than gender. Similar empathy-driven values can be found in any marginalized group ... transgender/gay, ethnic-religious minorities, the disposable working poor, the handicapped, the aged, etc. But once a member of the minority group gets promoted to the 'honorary entitled' guild, those values can change and/or be revealed to be not as empathetic as presumed.
A good example is the first black U.S. president ... who proved to be more of a poster boy for Wall Street than for main street ... and made the likes of Julian Assange and Ed Snowden enemies of the state. Along with the strangle hold of Big Tech on the corporate world, the nation-state has made whistle blowing against the government illegal. Although it has always been dangerous to point to the naked emperor, it is also the obligation of an informed citizenry to hold authority accountable. I am with Cornel West and Chris Hedges on this one.
Very interesting!
Your going to need alot more beer 🍺 to listen to this bullshit
Welcome back Harari. Hope u had a great time on retreat. Please open subtitels to the video ♥
Humans don't have inate killing in them. Most want to cooperate, just look around, we want to be just. It's in our nature.
Thank you for helping me think! Two people I really admire.
Extraordinary meeting of minds!
Thank you very much; reinforcing Freedom and Responsibility.
Je pense que sera une plus grande contribution au débat mundial pour le bien des êtres humain.
54:24 wow... just wow
such a beautiful talk... thank you prof Waal.. thank you prof Harari. ❤
Thank you both.
Wonderful eye-opening stuff 👏
Thank you for having and sharing this wonderful conversation here. We could use more of these to balance views and help us make sense of things happening around us 💙💙
two great minds in the 21st century!
The world needs experts and free speech, not leaders who impose their views on others by force and reject those who complain.
Yuval and Waal.....cute combination of brilliant thoughts.....prof Yuval.pl get us atleast 1per week latest talk of yours,,,,
42:10 about the political deadlock concerning climate change
"Emotionally we are not prepared to the kind of power [of impacting the climate] that we have and that's the basic problem in todays politics."
Really great conversation.
Thank You Jesus for Your Blood. ❤❤❤
I am very grateful that I can see this conversation of world-class scholars for free on TH-cam. 3 years ago, I read Harari's Sapiens and became a fan of the artist (I read the Sapiens trilogy of course). Thanks to the writer, so I dream of becoming a global talent. - A Korean university student living on the other side of the world -
Very interesting discussion 👍
Quite an insightful conversation.
Maybe less pain in our bodies and less suffering. We need only thee most moral people in charge of these technologies
Dr.Fans De Waal is a Realist and Yuval Noah ( Harari ) Ferrari is a Pragmatist, that knows he's paid to be an Idealist.
The difference is that Harari is 'book smart' ...he's read a lot of the 'right' books. De Waal works directly in the field and gets 'his hands dirty'.
You can immediately gauge the difference between them.
An idealist that only plays with ideas, can easily stay an idealist.... especially when he's handsomely paid to be an optimist.
Yuval...you are terrific ....
The decision to Groove, may Be our only hope!! Find your inner voice & Groove upon it!!
Thank you thank... you thank you...
From 19:00 really enjoy the match of these two in dialogue
Great thank you for presenting to us this amazing conversation of two great scientists and thinkers, Dr de Waal and Dr Harary
To whoever manages Tuvalu’s social media accounts, please upload more bite-size videos rather than 1 hour long videos. In this day and age of smart phone over-stimulation, our attention spans and our busy lives often don’t permit sitting through an hour long video (however interesting it may be).
The problem with identifying the facts starts when you derive prescriptions from what you believe to be the facts.
wow, marvelous things had said: "responsibility but not authenticity"
Thanks Gents!
Beautiful conversation!! Loveit!!
2 of my favourite people.
Thank you Yuval for your insightful thoughts as always. I would like to know exactly why do you think scientists should not be the ones making the political decisions? As an example, if climate change and environmental protection policies were been decided by scientists we wouldn´t be in the current situation where the solid climate science is being ignored.
mhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh
Not only changes in genetics affect evolution.
If we consider that we evolve (positively) when the action potential increases, it is true that humans are evolving without experiencing changes in our genetics, thanks to our ability to transfer information with meaning through language between our peers, and from generation to generation. in generation.
In practice, today we are evolving at an exponential rate, and it is very difficult to project the "social scenario" that will exist in a few decades.
Prof. Harari’s mention of new human beings, thru techniques available now, created, need not be frightening at all. Unless we maybe allow the kind of elite stated by Noam Chomsky recently “In a country set up for and managed by an elite, law is disposable “ to decide fate & make of these new intelligent human species . Along with disposable law can ethics, moral values be added to the observation?
We have the technical ability Yuval but it begs the question: ought we?
Immanuel Kant is rigorously shaking his head.......
Я здесь с огромным опозданием и вижу всего двести лайкс . Говорит само за себя . Мы скорее всего обречены (((
Excelente entrevista, aprendi mucho con estos científicos!
Very very good, as usual
Thank you so much! For this incredible space of "freedom" and inspiration and food for thought.
And funny moments too "I think freedom is overrated" 😄😄 Great!
We are all Earthlingz
Frans and Yuval,
Thanks for the informative and thought-provoking videos. I am big admirer of Yuval’s work. It has cleared lots of my doubts about religion, politics, economics. In agreement of how imaginary stories have resulted in shaping Sapiens’ dominance on this planet. Unfortunately, I haven’t checked Frans’s work so far (my bad). But I am more than eager to check it out.
One big doubt though or rather my thought or my understanding. When it comes to imagination, I see two class of Sapiens. 1. Creator of the story (Leaders) 2. Believer of the story (Followers). The pattern is few leaders and large number of followers. The patten may also be there in other mammals or living organs. But it also suggests that future depends on the quality of stories created by leaders or interpretation of the story by followers. The results can be good or bad. Now the confusion is that if the ratio of leader v/s follower in sapiens changes to more leaders and less followers, what can be the overall outcome? Will it stabilize / correct the disruptions created by us (may reduce the negative impact with more stories to choose from) or we once again become a normal species as few million years ago (as our collaboration, which has led to our power, will go for a toss)? For which ever outcome, if the result seems more favourable to everyone in general, what can be done?
Hi, your questions are deep and require a thorough research. In my opinion, from understanding Yuval's work, he can't supply you the answer you are asked him.
If I understood you properly, it's now your turn to be the leader and not the follower, to find the answer (s).
Good luck, friend!
Highly Thought Provoking.
An amazing meeting of great minds.
Thank you very much about your eloquent analogy of being careful it’s nice to know that in heaven we can hope that the earth can obtain the same qualities for inhabitants before we get there like racing to a red light isn’t it my friends
Platitudes...
If only bankers were the best storytellers in the world. It is The Liberal story that gives unprecedented power to unscrupulous financiers. The constitution of a credit union that generously credits our best social engineers aka our best storytellers, may be our best hope.
You r great sir
..
Practical God of 21st century
We have our brains and our numbers..
A conversation among titans!
Dziękuję serdecznie Panu Bartosz Węglarczyk. Słucham od lat Yuvala Noah Harari, tak miło usłyszeć, że zapraszany jest do Polski. Balsam na moje serce. Jeszcze raz dziękuję.
grazie ad entrambi! è stato un dibattito interessantissimo. Il paragone con i nostri cugini scimpanzè è troppo spesso dimenticato. mi è piaciuto molto il discorso sulla libertà come impegno a lungo termine piuttosto che come diritto innato
It would be interesting to know how much work has been done by the 'intelligent, greatest' people on this planet on an empty stomach....and if they haven't, then where did their food come from...did they hunt and gather the food they have been stuffing all their lives or has someone else been growing it for them...then are we not ashamed to consider ourselves a better design of species when most of us cannot even grow, hunt or gather a single meal by ourselves...which every other species is capable of...the most basic thing for ensuring survival...what a farce we are..
Nomadic hunter gatherers had usually plenty of food to find, forest everywhere and a lot of plants to eat, human height was reduced after agricultural revolution. In tribes, people share hunted food, it is not about me, me. Fossilized faeces showed that we ate much more fibres, probably due to eating a lot of raw plants
I too never fully understood the offside rule !
Yuval talks about the founding myths of nations. So many of us have been asking him to discuss the myths of the foundation of the Jewish sate.
fantastic duo. Background of Frans is haliraous. please open subtitels.
Narcissism of small differences was the quote
Amazing! Great talk! Thank you!
I am lucky to learn from our world few of the greatest genius.And i see Y N Harari as telling us gospel truth. Coz in India i have been abused n tortured by the catholic nuns n priests. Just because i managed to stay ahead of all these manipulating forces I am alive but now they are abusing and torturing people related to me literally forcing me to obey them. The Indian Armed forces also joined in the assault of abuse and torture at Wellington, Staff College. Tamil Nadu where my husband retired. This manipulating forces are on for more than a decade. My desperate prayers to the divine universe to shower the same fate on all those involved specially the nuns and priests n immediately now stop the abuse n torture showered on us all. Thank you all for helping me.
Excellent.
Interesting topic , freedom is tied with responsibility and dogmas are there to manipulate and have power over other primates . I still see another dimension related to the power within the self . It's unconditional and an inner journey into the self
After a long time
Cool discussion ...I think Daniele Ganzer would have been a good participant.
This conversation is so wonderful....it is a privilege to hear genius engaged at the highest level...both men are having a conversation and we can listen...
I don't think animals kill for pleasure....it's their quiddity to do what they must...
Humans kill for pleasure....some respond sexually to cruelty...pain...blood....I'm thinking MBS....trump.....sixk..
Yuval I disagree reapectfully ....everything has telos....for example - the virus is a dead thing but has the purpose of replication....it must or it ceases to be....
Happiness is for idiots and freedom is overrated - I am very disappointed to hear Frans de Waal say that. Harari is, as always, clear in his statements and a pleasure to listen to.
Мени је Бог само давао, људи су све то само узимали.
Human have great capacity to make higher level abstractions. Variety of sports, the rules of monetary transactions, judiciary, the forms of governance, the reward and punishment system - all are outcome of brains' capacity to create abstraction from mundane.
An absolutely critical point, nationalism, is debated starting 25 minutes in. Harari thinks it's a good example of large-scale empathy, De Waal suggests nationalism needs an in-group / out-group distinction.
I would argue that that boundary causes gaps between people to widen and empathy to fracture at those boundaries. That would be a case of schismogenesis as described by Graeber in "The Dawn of everything". It is one on the things that keeps us from reaching worldwide understanding of the fact that we are all in the same boat, an understanding we urgently need.