One thing I really appreciate about the way you two work together on the podcast is how often you “yes and” each other. Bob never shuts down Jordan, even when Jordan throws out an idea or motif that Bob doesn’t entirely hold. Instead, he validates the idea and then goes overtop in with his own idea-“yes, that; and also this.” You can really see this dynamic with Jordan’s idea that the pouring out water onto the altar is reminiscent of a water offering-“pouring one out for God” as Bob says-where Bob accepts the idea as a valid reading and then supersedes it with his reading as encompassing Jordan’s reading within Bob’s own idea. It doesn’t only make the dynamic less student-teacher and more expert-senior expert; it also creates room for us at the table and makes us feel like we can likewise take part in the conversation rather than just be passive attendees. Thanks for this, both of you! 🙏
There is lots of room at the table and we love hearing from you. Come join us at a Live Friday Free-For-All and you can jump right in the conversation. -JJ
The ba’al cycle is composed between 1500 and 1300 BCE. This is flanked by the old Babylonian conquest and Hittite invasion and on the other side the Egyptian Conquest and Amarna period. The peak of Levantine control occurred roughly at the beginning of the 25th century under Eblaite kingdom in which Hadda recognized as high god in some more important settlements. This receded at the end of Sumerian Early Dynastic period and essentially ended Eblaite rule during the Akkadian period with the fading of many Eblaite gods. The eastern influences included into the old Babylonian Empire. None the less several Canaanite gods gained recognition in Mesopotamia, including Anath and Adad. Ashratum was recognized as the wife of Amurru. The Hittites Sacked Babylonian and defeated the Amorites around 1600 BCE in order that they might maintain control of Yamhad. They however had a turbulent rule and kingdoms surrounding the Hittites were constantly challenging their territories. As the Hittites expanded under Šuppiluliuma I reaching their maximum around 1340 BCE near Biblyos. From this point onward the Egyptians had control over most of the Levant until the LBAC. It may be the case that the Hittite invasion was seen as the dying of Hadad and their retraction his revival.
What a coincidence, I listened to the Baal episode from a few months ago this morning and then here’s this episode. Love the show gentlemen, wish I had found it ages ago, but having lots of backlog is nice too
@@bibleandarch Dr Cargill has said many times that monotheism arose with the reforms of Josiah, but Dr Dan McClellan has argued, fairly convincingly to me, that monotheism was a quite late innovation, do you have any recommended readings on the topic?
You guys are great at representing this material and shining light on how fascinating these stories are. As for the wrinkles, I love the wrinkles! The wrinkles are the spices to the main course.
Great show. Point taken on the use of the Baal cycle as Elijah trolls the Baal priesthood. However, some basic facts are misstated that have nothing to do with the main point of Elijah trolling using Baal stories. The drought is not at the beginning of this story. Perhaps your points are valid and this is a merging of some sort, but a plain reading of the text shows the drought beginning in 17:1, and will end when YHWH says so. In 18:1, YHWH says so. All Elijah is supposed to do is go find Ahab and tell him. Instead, Elijah decides to have this contest. Elijah raises a dead child, and the number 3 attaches the inner story to the outer story. 3 year drought. 3 healing exercises. Elisha raises a dead child, and the number 7 attaches the inner story to the outer story. A 7 year famine. Child awakens sneezing 7 times. Jesus raises a dead child, and the number 12 attaches the inner story to the outer story. Woman bleeding 12 years, 12 year old child raised. The raising of the dead child is the outer story in Mark, inverting the raising of the dead child being the inner story in Elijah and Elisha. It is not an accident. There are not "lots " of these types of stories in the OT. Mark is directly using Elisha, Luke directly uses Elijah. Its plain as day.
Also, a plain reading of the text as we have it: Elijah decides on his own to challenge the Baal priests; Elijah is not on the run until after he kills Baal's priests; Elijah has not put the royals on blast yet, that comes as Ahab steals Naboth's vineyard. The ending at verse 40 may be reflected in Elijah's lament that he is no better than his ancestors. The bloodbath was not commissioned by YHWH. The relationship between prophets and YHWH are very interesting throughout the end of 1 Kings and the beginning of 2 Kings (the Elijah-Elisha Narrative).
No, that was Jesus talking to his father we are not made in the image of angels, and God. In the beginning, there was the Word and the Word was with God and the Word was God.
If they could have come up with things they would have, the bible is full of stolen stories, polemics and stolen stories are different things, and the Bible is full of both so please don't candy-coat the plagiarism.
Dr. Cargill should see the story of Humbaba, and the place of Humbaba's birth/engendering. As for the caves, ḫurrum (𒄯) is the OB etymon of the Biblical Hebrew words for cave, related also to ḫabruda (𒆢), which means cave and hole (see also, qbr). They couldn't have come up with it themselves, and I don't think it's a bad thing. The stories all exist within a context, and it seems that the past 2,000 years of Western religious and theological development has been peppered with attempts to either erase some of that context or to cling to late misinterpretations which eventually became dogma.
One thing I really appreciate about the way you two work together on the podcast is how often you “yes and” each other. Bob never shuts down Jordan, even when Jordan throws out an idea or motif that Bob doesn’t entirely hold. Instead, he validates the idea and then goes overtop in with his own idea-“yes, that; and also this.”
You can really see this dynamic with Jordan’s idea that the pouring out water onto the altar is reminiscent of a water offering-“pouring one out for God” as Bob says-where Bob accepts the idea as a valid reading and then supersedes it with his reading as encompassing Jordan’s reading within Bob’s own idea.
It doesn’t only make the dynamic less student-teacher and more expert-senior expert; it also creates room for us at the table and makes us feel like we can likewise take part in the conversation rather than just be passive attendees.
Thanks for this, both of you! 🙏
There is lots of room at the table and we love hearing from you. Come join us at a Live Friday Free-For-All and you can jump right in the conversation. -JJ
The ba’al cycle is composed between 1500 and 1300 BCE. This is flanked by the old Babylonian conquest and Hittite invasion and on the other side the Egyptian Conquest and Amarna period.
The peak of Levantine control occurred roughly at the beginning of the 25th century under Eblaite kingdom in which Hadda recognized as high god in some more important settlements. This receded at the end of Sumerian Early Dynastic period and essentially ended Eblaite rule during the Akkadian period with the fading of many Eblaite gods. The eastern influences included into the old Babylonian Empire. None the less several Canaanite gods gained recognition in Mesopotamia, including Anath and Adad. Ashratum was recognized as the wife of Amurru.
The Hittites Sacked Babylonian and defeated the Amorites around 1600 BCE in order that they might maintain control of Yamhad. They however had a turbulent rule and kingdoms surrounding the Hittites were constantly challenging their territories. As the Hittites expanded under Šuppiluliuma I reaching their maximum around 1340 BCE near Biblyos. From this point onward the Egyptians had control over most of the Levant until the LBAC.
It may be the case that the Hittite invasion was seen as the dying of Hadad and their retraction his revival.
I agree. I noticed how well the two worked together. Very professional.
This was my favorite story as a child! (Nothing like hearing about the slaughter of several hundred people before bed right?)
Very fascinated by the discussion of the Ugaritic stories! Great show overall, gentlemen!
Came here and subscribed right away because I saw Dan reposted this link from X.
A big like for the Dylan/Hendrix analogy. Material doesn't have to be 100% original or 100% "plagiarized"!
What a coincidence, I listened to the Baal episode from a few months ago this morning and then here’s this episode. Love the show gentlemen, wish I had found it ages ago, but having lots of backlog is nice too
Glad you found us, hope you enjoy the back catalog!
@@bibleandarch Dr Cargill has said many times that monotheism arose with the reforms of Josiah, but Dr Dan McClellan has argued, fairly convincingly to me, that monotheism was a quite late innovation, do you have any recommended readings on the topic?
You guys are great at representing this material and shining light on how fascinating these stories are. As for the wrinkles, I love the wrinkles! The wrinkles are the spices to the main course.
For 32:15, I like the euphemism "facilitating the facilities"
Yeah, what you guys said:) Fascinating!
👍Thank you.
Great show. Point taken on the use of the Baal cycle as Elijah trolls the Baal priesthood.
However, some basic facts are misstated that have nothing to do with the main point of Elijah trolling using Baal stories.
The drought is not at the beginning of this story. Perhaps your points are valid and this is a merging of some sort, but a plain reading of the text shows the drought beginning in 17:1, and will end when YHWH says so. In 18:1, YHWH says so. All Elijah is supposed to do is go find Ahab and tell him. Instead, Elijah decides to have this contest.
Elijah raises a dead child, and the number 3 attaches the inner story to the outer story. 3 year drought. 3 healing exercises.
Elisha raises a dead child, and the number 7 attaches the inner story to the outer story. A 7 year famine. Child awakens sneezing 7 times.
Jesus raises a dead child, and the number 12 attaches the inner story to the outer story. Woman bleeding 12 years, 12 year old child raised.
The raising of the dead child is the outer story in Mark, inverting the raising of the dead child being the inner story in Elijah and Elisha. It is not an accident. There are not "lots " of these types of stories in the OT. Mark is directly using Elisha, Luke directly uses Elijah. Its plain as day.
Also, a plain reading of the text as we have it:
Elijah decides on his own to challenge the Baal priests;
Elijah is not on the run until after he kills Baal's priests;
Elijah has not put the royals on blast yet, that comes as Ahab steals Naboth's vineyard.
The ending at verse 40 may be reflected in Elijah's lament that he is no better than his ancestors. The bloodbath was not commissioned by YHWH. The relationship between prophets and YHWH are very interesting throughout the end of 1 Kings and the beginning of 2 Kings (the Elijah-Elisha Narrative).
'Deep into Ba'al', as opposed to Ba'al's .....
Humor aside, very informative.
THIS GUY JORDAN JONES RESEMBLES TOPHER GRACE (ERIC FORMAN THAT 70s SHOW) 👍👀
No, that was Jesus talking to his father we are not made in the image of angels, and God. In the beginning, there was the Word and the Word was with God and the Word was God.
a kingdom in Phonecia
Clear as Dirty mud. Just like the Bible. 😢
If they could have come up with things they would have, the bible is full of stolen stories, polemics and stolen stories are different things, and the Bible is full of both so please don't candy-coat the plagiarism.
People like it because it is proof there are other Gods and Goddesses
Dr. Cargill should see the story of Humbaba, and the place of Humbaba's birth/engendering. As for the caves, ḫurrum (𒄯) is the OB etymon of the Biblical Hebrew words for cave, related also to ḫabruda (𒆢), which means cave and hole (see also, qbr).
They couldn't have come up with it themselves, and I don't think it's a bad thing. The stories all exist within a context, and it seems that the past 2,000 years of Western religious and theological development has been peppered with attempts to either erase some of that context or to cling to late misinterpretations which eventually became dogma.