Good points. The MFT is optimized to process sheet good accurately and safely. The more traditional strategy to breakdown sheet goods efficiently and accurately is to have an industrial sized table saw with a huge sliding table. That requires a big shop and deep pockets.
Well said I totally agree I’ve been in the joinery business for over 40years and know there’s no substitute for a solid heavy workbench with a couple of vices and some holes in 4” thick worktop for holdfast mine has storage underneath and sits in the middle of my garage in total must be 1/2 ton there’s nothing I can’t hold securely
Thank you, Yes I also have a very large heavy hand tool bench that I built years ago, solid wood, 4” top, dog holes, leg vice, end vice and nice forged hold fasts. And it doesn’t move, perhaps it is the experience of working on that bench that highlights the challenges I face with the MFT. BUT the big bench can’t hold a torch to the MFT in terms of the accuracy and speed you get from that grid of 20mm holes. And given the size of the workshop, I can’t have both. I did think about putting a grid of 20mm holes in the hand tool bench - but I think that the accuracy would drift as things expand and contract. So that is the challenge - how to get the benefits of both. Cheers Andy
I solved the tool storage issue by building a simple shelf that rests on the horizontal spreaders on the legs. Do the work, chuck the tools on the shelf. Easy peasy.
Thank you, It’s more about sharing my experiences, hopefully it will help others. Some of this stuff is expensive and it’s not always easy to find a balanced view. Cheers Andy
Andy, great discussion! Highlighting requirements of other commentators - precision, accuracy, repeat-ability, convenience, sturdiness, economy and speed working with small-large sheet goods, flat stock and blocks. Two ways how this is done - move work to tool and move tool to work. The first way are drill press, table saw, joiner, band saw etc.. Until recently this offered greatest accuracy within budgets of most woodworkers. The second way are portable saw/guide, router, drill etc.. Recent advances like track saws, Parf, MFT have elevated accuracy to approach fixed tools in the first group, within acceptable budgets - but compromising sturdiness & stability in heavy-handed operations. Hybrids of both ways - CNC, Milling Machines, etc. have high cost, large footprint and steep learning curve. So the challenge is to get it all in one solution. If that is not possible, maybe consider two solutions that work together - like a drop/fold-down MFT that attaches to a traditional workbench w/storage, with portable power tool & accessory storage on the wall behind the drop-down.
👍Well needed discussion. I just bought my first Festool saw, and I am contemplating the options of a parf dog build table versus the Festool MFT/3. Thanks for putting this out!
I purchased an Axminster DIY workbench which has some dog holes in it and has 2 vices, it is sturdy and great for traditional woodworking, I am going to put an MFT style top on a purpose built bench in my 10x8 shed to use for sheet cutting, assembly and finishing as I have gone away from using my table saw and mitre saw to using hand tools. My mitre saw is now a Nobex as my projects tend to be small ones as my shed is small and it is a hobby. Thanks for sharing your ideas and plans for the future.
Hi Ray, thank you for sharing this. I have gone the other way - from hand tools to power tools, now leaning back to hand tools so will end somewhere in the middle. Cheers Andy
Thank you for the comment, Won’t be long now, will probably out a design video out on TH-cam - but then the deep dirty build over on the web site. Cheers Andy
I LOVE my couple of Festool tools, but when it came to the workbench, like you, small space and stability was required not portability. I wasn’t happy with the stability of the Festool MFT. So I built a heavy Roubo bench and use traditional spring steel holdowns and a birdsmouth. Never regretted it! and no holes for small stuff to fall through.
One thing you could try is removing the legs of the mft's then adding purpose built bases to them. It would fix some of the issues like stability. Might not be the best option right now but if you ever get a bigger shop one day you could try it out.
Thanks for this, yes that would work as an idea - but I also want to try and help others who are thinking about this. So going for a new build Cheers Andy
So helpfull, because so true and to the point. I´m building a new workbench, will go for mft-ish design, but without the drawbacks (dead space underneath, wobblyness of the table, blocked t-tracks etc). This video made it clearer to me, what the benefits as well as the limitations of a mft are. Thx for sharing
My pleasure, glad it added value. The MFT is a great for field work (although there are now much better option). The bench I built instead is also MFT style, making better use of the space and very solid. I have a video on it somewhere. Cheers Andy
I too work out of a one car garage. I have an MFT but don't use it for the same reasons you mentioned and it's stored in the other room. I just bought a lightly used MFT top and mounted it on top of a roll around cart in the shop. I am going to install some type of legs on the cart that will make it more solid and take the wheels out of the equation. The cart rolls under the wing of my Radial Arm Saw and my CT26 dust extractor is stored under the top in the cart. There is a shelf on the side for parking the tools. One thing I have noticed about the Festool system is that you must have storage for the systainers and another place to park the tools. In the shop it does not make sense to put the tool back in the systainer every time you use it. That's fine for the ones you use occasionally, but not practical for the ones you use frequently. I am anxious to see what you come up with. This is a problem for a lot of us.
Thank you, it sounds like a nice setup. I actually like the systainer as a storage solution in the shop. The sysport was one of the best things I ever built - even in the small shop it is worth it. But I get what you mean, the boxes do take up a lot of space. Cheers Andy
I think you have realized that the mobile functionality of the MFT system no longer meets your needs and you want more of a permanent layout shop. I on the other hand went from having a dedicated 762 sq ft shop with all the big tools and carpenter benches, to a 2 car garage that has to hold 2 cars. Of all those tools I had I only kept my sliding miter saw and my sjoberg bench. After a few months it was clear that there just wasn’t going to be enough space. So I bought into the Festool ecosystem and it works out perfect for me. Number one, I do this for my own pleasure as a stress relief and am not making production runs. Number 2 I don’t need to haul things to jobsites. But I do need to be able to set up quickly, get lots of versatility to the dollar, and pack it all away so the cars can be back inside. This system works well for me. The point is, find the system that works for you and meets your needs. I looked at the Paulk system before buying the MFT and there is nothing wrong with it. But I figured I could either spend my time duplicating a Paulk station or unbox an MFT and get to work. There is a cost either way and you spend what you can. I haven’t bought any of my Festool items new and have patiently kept my eye out for discounted 2nd hand pieces. Enjoy your videos. Thanks.
Hi Jeff, Yes exactly you have it bang on :-) It’s about the use of the MFT in my situation and the type of things I build and how I build them, rather than a review of the MFT. For you in your situation it works very well, I expected to be doing much more work in the field - in reality I am doing more work in the shop - and given I have that space dedicated, I don’t need the portability and the understandable compromise that brings. And you still have the sjoberg workbench if you need a bit more stability in your work. Thank you for sharing and taking the time to comment. Cheers Andy
'Suitable for portability but not the workshop'. Agreed. Just like systainers. In a workshop they require seven steps to retrieve a tool (pull, unlock, open, pick tool, close, lock, push). Four more than a drawer. Six more than a shelf. Any very inefficient space-wise. No wonder you struggle for where to put your tools. Keep them for site use. My solution to MFT functionality (without all the problems) is to have a palk type module that fits on top of my tablesaw/router bench. Simple, solid, and MUCH cheaper. Hooks on wall when not in use. Bench is lever lift wheeled- very movable but locks solid. Overhead power and vacuum system plus clip on tools-in-use holders. No dead space (tool drawers etc). I recommend it as a system.
Hi Mike, Thanks for the feedback - I hadn’t thought about systainers in terms of workflow, now you have mentioned it I will watching myself on the next project. A place to put the tools is more about during the workflow. Good thoughts on the tool bench, Cheers Andy
Bits of add on's to the back rail to mange dogs, screw drivers, clamps, tool holders and other fittings does the trick for me. Keeping my table and the MT1000 extension. Love to see what you do come up with though.
Hi Warren, Thank you for the comment, I still haven’t nailed the design - I have something in my head, but can’t help but think it may be overly complicated. I am going to drop it into Sketchup tomorrow and see what I think. This will be the third different design. So watch this space Andy
@@TheWoodgrafter think about the types of cuts for the woodworking you will be making using 80/10/5 other percent. Mine was sheetgoods, 90 & 45 degree cuts. Then build your workflow accordingly. And never discount the odd ball job and how you will do it and move it about the shop. Good luck.
I very much appreciate this information. I have been looking at the MFT as an option. I may still purchase them. But this reinforces my thoughts on them as a permanent shop fixture mounted atop a base cabinet system with storage drawers. Thank you!
Nice discussion. Totally valid points, well phrased. But regarding stability: I added Festool's diagonal braces to my MFT/3 and wow, they make a gigantic difference in stability. Without the braces, it was exactly as wobbly as you note. With the braces, my MFT/3 is rock solid. (Officially, they're the Festool 495502 MFT Cross Members.) I bought them because a bunch of people on the FOG (Festool Owner's Group online) recommended them for dramatically enhancing stability, and they were absolutely right. Festool really should include them as part of the MFT/3 package. Oh, and I cut a sheet of plywood, notched the corners, and dropped it in as a shelf across the legs' front-to-back cross bars. Holds all my clamps & dogs, and is a place for setting down the tools. Mine's primitive - just a big shelf, really. But one could easily drop a more sophisticated set of shelves or even cabinets in there. And I'm wondering about making a drop-on-top "moxon" style vise to solve the side-clamping issue. Apart from that, yes, for non-portable working, I'd rather have a 'real' workbench of a properly useful size. With flip-up/flip-down wheels for rolling things around.
Hi Paul, Thank you for the input - yes agree those braces make a difference and I imagine your tool shelf has added even more stability. One of our subscribers also made a set of braces that looked like a good alternative. However, as most of my work is now workshop based - I want something more substantial. Hence the new bench. Cheers Andy
Thankyou Andy for your advice, I was so close and tempted to buy a MFT but the wobble and the sizes etc always where niggling pain in the back of my mind, so back to the drawing board for me mate, keep up the great videos, Louie.
AMEN to all your comments on the MFT/3. I own one, plus the MW1000 with table - they're fine for sanding, sawing, assembly and so on - but almost no help with hand tool use - especially planing. I was trying to do some quick planing on a single piece yesterday and it was difficult to get good shavings and a good surface because of the vibration. HOWEVER, for a portable solution, the MFT/3 and/or MW1000 is pretty hard to beat. I even got the leg braces for the MFT/3 - no real help for hand tool use. I am so space-limited that I often will pull the MFT/3 out to work on larger pieces outside my garage workshop. If I need stability for smallish pieces, I either clamp a Sjobergs Smart Workbench Pro to my cast iron table saw, or use two Festool Vac Sys clamping modules mounted on the table saw. I don't have room for a full workbench, but that would be first on my list to build or buy if I did. Love your channel - sorry I've been a little work-occupied lately and not too present.
No problems on the absence, you are always welcome here. Hope all is OK. Agree the MFT is great at what it does, just doesn’t do what I need. So time for a change. Strange. I would love a cast iron table saw, but due to space have prioritised the workbench. If we joined the two shops together we may have a solution :-) Talk soon. Andy
@@TheWoodgrafter A bit of a long distance to work together... I started woodworking with a Shopsmith - a 5-in-one workshop (lathe, table saw, vertical drill press, sander, and even a router/shaper), that took up about as much space as a bicycle. It did 5 things (or more), but none of them well - especially the table saw. The aluminum table actually flexed from the weight of wood put on it, was underpowered (110V), and was really difficult to get truly square cuts on it. It had a little bandsaw attachment and even a thickness planer attachment I finally got fed up with it, sold it all and bought the most solid table saw I could afford - a 220v Delta Unisaw with a really good fence. It is solid... from there added a decent lathe, band saw, drill press, jointer/planer, and now a 2'x4' cnc - and I have no room for a bench... It's a little crowded.
I use an MFT and a traditional workbench ideal combination. I was lucky and got a bench from Richard Maguire before he stopped making them. It is his version of a Rubio bench and it is excellent, if you get a chance to get one you would not regret it. He does have a video on his website (paid for video) on the making of a bench but not his Rubio bench.
Hi Tim,, I have a traditional bench based on Rubo - made it some years ago, in fact the FREE videos and plans are over on the web site. I would love to have that combination - but don’t have the room. So looking to make something that gives me the best of both worlds. Cheers Andy
Love this channel Love festool too but to have a full system like yours Is way out of my reach So hopefully this new bench your building will be far more Sensible price wise Really intrigued with what your design will be 👍😊
Nothing beats a tailored solution! For hand tool uses, I find that a traditional workbench, with a solid vise (a la Paul Sellers for instance) is very hard to beat. There is a place for bench dog grid based systems when using power tools, but I find that a large temporary work surface with holes on trestles (mine is a 170x90cm sheet of MDF with holes made with the Parf system) is fit for purpose. A viable alternative is Dave Stanton's design on top of a sturdy table which can be repurposed for other uses. Ideally all these surfaces (bench dog grid, traditional woodworking workbench, top of mitre saw stand, top of table saw and router table, etc.) will be at the same height and easily moveable to suit the needs of each project. While at it, the Festool boxes are nice, but not well suited for a workshop environment where they waste a lot of space. Drawers and shelves allow for better use of space and workflow in my experience I'll be interested to see what you end up with!
Hi Francois, yes I have a hand made hand tool bench, lovely 4” top, leg vice and good old dog holes for hold fasts. I really admire Paul’s work - but not a fan of the type of bench he favours. More of a single top Rubo type guy. The challenge, as always, is all about space - so need to find a compromise solution. I have seen the on top solution - but want something more permanent than that. Hi 100% everything will be the same height, and probably modular so things can be moved around. Probably going for drawers, as I want to have some safe storage for my hand tool collection. All will be revealed soon. Andy
Completely agree with a lot of this. The MFT is for a very specific use. I still really like mine for now, but tool storage is a challenge and the compass fairly useless. In hindsight the Basic model would have sufficed. I've used home made side mount holders for my TSC 55 and Domino, which works great. To combat the dead space I made custom trolleys with SYS-AZ using aluminium profile from KJN. I did try the Paulk design but it became a dumping ground and I kept losing and rebuying things...I just don't have the discipline to keep things tidy. My new shop philosophy is, minimal horizontal surfaces and everything must have an unobstructed home.
I agree “a place for everything and everything in its place “ I know it, I understand it, but it’s probably the biggest time hole to get the “right” place for everything. I don’t have a mft and I do have a Paulk bench 36”x72” that is awesome for many of the reasons afore mentioned it is very stable, still portable, has tool storage, extremely accurate and the horses store long clamps, mouldings, and trac rails. I’ve also made a shelf on the top front arm of the sawhorses that protrudes 1” further than the top, it supports materials wider than 21” for edge work. As I reinvent my work space I will be using Ron’s concepts more.
I agree with the stability issues you raised. For the price it should be a more stable table. Good points all around but I still would buy one understanding all the negatives you raised as there are also lots of positives. Can’t wit to see what you build. I would buy the tables when you are ready to sell and ship to Florida USA
Hi Richard, Yes it is a good table, and the accuracy can’t be discounted. In fact I will be selling the one with accessories and keeping the other back to use on the job site. The new bench is coming along nicely - the course is live over the web site. I will be creating an overview video when it is completed. Cheers Andy
My suggestion is to build a table top torsion box that is 3 inches in height and also has dog holes where you want them. It gives you the best of both clamp worlds - using Festool clamping or more traditional tools that go in traditional, heavy thick bench tops. Put the top on a heavy, Rubou style base. Add casters (Rockler in USA) that allow you to easily move the bench. I made mine for about $200 and love it. Festool products were never intended for hand tool work - they are for cabinet professionals that need dust control, accuracy and portability.
Hi Jeff, Yes good solution, The problem I would have is storing the torsion box. Mid project the workshop is pretty full so wouldn’t have room for it. Cheers Andy
The problem with this is that holes in the table top are different in modern and ancient usage. The kind of deal where one can hammer in a hold down on a trad bench, is not the same deal as MFT holes aligned to the thou and used as positioning for jigs. They could theoretically be combined, because even on MFT benches, not all the uses are the same: Three common uses are bench part alignment, like miter saw wings, as on Paulk benches, these do not require MFT, though it is convenient; Hold downs, but such as do not damage the MFT accuracy, so L clamps, and these need a thin top; Hyper accurate jigs, such as for crosscut fences, but I have seen an MFT system where the guy preferred two small reference pins on his track, and the MFT was doing nothing, so you can get almost total MFT function from a smaller selection of holes, and could probably mix in heavy bench sections for classic hold downs, or use screw hold downs as per Lee Valley, that are not quite so destructive.
Hi Kevin, It’s always a fine line isn’t it. Buy quality buy once or buy slightly cheaper, learn why you need and then upgrade. I have some Festool tools I shouldn’t have bought. And recently needed a plan sander so purchased a Bosch. Time will tell if that was a good idea. Cheers Andy
A lot of the issues seem like they could be solved by either building a shelf/cabinet/cubby below or behind the mft to store tools. Alternatively just create a folding table or wall shelving for temporary storage that stick out under the tracks.
Agree, There are many ways to fix the problems, I think the point of the video was to position the MFT as a mobile bench with other options available for the workshop. Now I have built the new bench, it is a different world and I have no regrets. Cheers Andy
Great perspective on the true value of the MFT which is predominantly for portability . I understand how you got to that point, like you said, originally you wanted to do more onsite work. I think the track saw is the first thing that gets us all into Festool in the first place and then makes us a bit irrational for all the other Festools. The Festool Tracksaw & Guide allows for precision cuts on large sheet material in tight areas whick fitted the bill. If you're planning on doing more hand tool work where stability and clamping is pinnacle, then you'll love making yourself a hefty solid and stable workbench. Good luck with the coming projects; i'll look them up to see. Norm from Montreal, Canada.
Hi Norm, Thank you for the feedback, the new bench is not finished and it is a different world, the MFT served a purpose - but if I where to start again....... I agree, Festool is addictive and the combination of an MFT top and a track saw is a game changer - so a lot of folks will end up with a similar set up. AND if you are in the field you have a great portable solution. However, for the workshop a dedicated bench is a better option (and I incorporated the MFT top into mine) it has worked out really well. Plus as MFT tops become easier to make and buy, there are better options for the field worker. Cheers Andy
Hi Andy, perfect timing as I was wanting to build myself a workbench. I'd looked at the mft and really pleased I saw this before laying out the cash for one. I saw your bench dogs video and purchased the rail and stops when at Makers Central last year. I also purchased the Parf guide for making the mft top so now all I need is the inspiration for the bench. Looking forward to following along. Great channel, thanks for the time and effort you take to explain things so well.
Hi, Glad you are finding value in the videos, thank you for the feedback. Yes I love Ralph’s gear, and that will be a key feature of the new build. I am thinking of popping over to Makers this year - just for a look around. What did you think last year - worth a visit ? Andy
@@TheWoodgrafter Will you be presenting your new bench builds in future episodes? I came to the same conclusion as you and David, basically that the MFT is too small and unstable, basically a bench for using onsite not in the workshop.
Nuova Zeta Hi yes, I will introduce it on this channel in a few weeks time. However, the detailed build will be on the web site at www.thewoodgrafter.com Kind Regards Andy
Finally, in a short time, I will have a small laboratory (only 18 square meters) and, therefore, I am also thinking of more stable solutions than the MFT bench that has served me very well so far. Have you considered the classic wooden carpenter banknote? with holes for dogs, two vices etc. I did it but I fear it is too specialized and limiting. What do you think about it?
I made a MFT paulk style workbench with a sliding deadman thats 900mm wide and 2160mm long. The wheel kit enables it to sit flat on the floor when not being wheeled around and weighs over 200KG when nothing is inside it. If I was going to start again the one thing I would do would be to work on embedding some extrusion into the sides to more simulate the mft for more clamping possibilities. I have a few Kreg bench vise' mounted around it but feel like a full length extrusion would be been more versatile.
Hi Daniel, great feedback. Thank you. Like the idea of the deadman, and agree long t slot extrusion is a must. What wheel kit did you use ? Cheers Andy
@@TheWoodgrafter they were workbench castor's from axminster. www.axminster.co.uk/axminster-workbench-castors-507151 Some people weld or bolt each side together so they can raise and lower the whole side with one foot action. If you want a sturdy top but still want to keep the dog holes 25mm is your maximum thickness before the curve of the festool clamps can't make it around the corner in the dog holes. (The axminster rail clamps don't open as much as the festool ones so they only work on Max 18mm worktops)
@@TheWoodgrafter If you haven't already found buyers I'd be interested in the exact bits you are selling and how much you want for them. I'd like to have a more mobile setup in addition to my main bench :)
Daniel Phillips Hi, I will probably keep one of the MFT’s and sell the other one - I will also be including the accessory kit. I will also be selling on the Kapex MFT and the two extension arms. I will be keeping the CMS, and building the often mentioned mobile base and use that with the legs folded up. But I will be selling the VM extension table. I haven’t put them on the market as yet - obviously need to build the new stuff before I sell the old. So if you are interested then open to offers. Otherwise will just put them on eBay. Contact me privately if you want to talk more info@thewoodgrafter.com Obviously I am based in the UK, don’t really want to mess about with international shipping costs. Cheers Andy
Interested to see what you come up with....... I only really use the mft for dimensioning stock - I have a proper workbench with a vice for planing and joinery. My saw horses fit nicely under the mft, utilising space. I wish it was a tad more stable though.... Im yet to see someone come up with a variation I prefer. For me there is too much utility in being able to quickly lift and lower the guide rail. In addition the support bracket and pin gives the rail more rack resistantace than any other method I've seen. I work with varying stock widths, not much sheet materials so it's a real must for me. Will look forward to your progress.
Hi, I have space constraints otherwise I would have my hand tool bench in the shop and an assembly table. But we all have to compromise. The Benchdogs.co.uk system has been a game changer for me. So long as I have some 90degree ref holes in the bench then I am good to go. Still finalising the design but I think I may be able to have a hand tool style bench. With some strategic holes for the Benchdog system. Watch this space. Andy
@@TheWoodgrafter - yes I liked the look of the bench dog fence. I was a little put off by its inability to go underneath the guide rail. I've ordered the new parf fence and am hoping it works well in practicality. I use the mft for accurate, repeatable, matching dados also - using the guided OF. Thats another reason your style of set up won't work very well for me......
Great work Andy, currently designing a new bench, hybridising a Paulk style construction with hopefully some front clamping ability, looking forward to your new design.
Hi Warren, Sounds good - yes I am also having front clamping probably the simple incra T slot - just need to check if the Festool clamps will fit prior to the final decision. I will also be including a leg vice. Look forward to seeing what you come up with as well. Cheers Andy
Well Andy, I made a steel mft table to accommodate my mft table. I made it so I can take it apart. The steel unit bolts on. I made the frame 1,200 by 900mm and with the ply wood on top it's 898mm so a fraction lower than the mft table depending on the sacrificial piece. The table is more than twice the weight of an mft table although it's solid as. I plan to have a detachable fence and make it so it cuts precise square cuts. You can clamp work pieces onto it and it's solid and rigid. I still need to work out how to put a fence with a ruler and stop so it makes repetitive cuts and cuts to a certain size. I need to tap some threads for the top. I will do that tomorrow. Thought I let you know Andy.
Sounds good, Did you go for the 20mm grid on the top, or have you left it as a single ply slab. I don’t think you can beet the 20mm MFT style grid and that would accommodate some great third party fences that give you precision, stops and the measure you are looking for. Cheers Andy
The Woodgrafter I bought external structural pine ply. Problem is it needs plenty fixings which I tapped 6mm bolts. No holes in it yet. I made a few stuff ups running the threads as one cross threaded. It's best to actually clamp the work piece down and drill to thread at the same time to then screw in bolts. If I even need to replace the sacrificial board I wouldn't know how to line up to existing holes. I guess I can drill wider holes. The mft table must have been built using cad work and large large machines opposed to building by hand.
I think I'd look at making a mobile cart type system like The WoodWhisper. Remove the MFT legs and use them atop the cart. Improve stability with locking casters or similar. Allows you to use underneath for storage or tool caddies. Ability to pull cart away from wall or push back as needed. Maybe on one of the carts make it abit bigger so you can have an extension and mount a proper vice?
Hi Simon, Yes I have thought about that, and it would be a good solution. However, I want to create a bench that folks starting off can build - as part of the on line school I am developing. Plus the various tables have some value in the second hand world so will recover some of the initial investment. Cheers Andy
Hi Williamn01, yes that is what I would do if I where going down the mobile cart route suggested by Simon. I will probably keep one of the MFT’s back for site based work. Cheers Andy
@@TheWoodgrafter better to have a nice stable base it its going to be static anyway mate just stick some castors or whatever on it, quick release ones or something rockler do a set, quite like the look of the screw adjustable gear type I'm going to actually try a set of them myself. Looking forward to the build anyway bud 👍
Hi Andy, great video sounds like your going to make something a little similar to my bench (although you will make it 100x better). I've including thinks like a paulk workbench and parf top, then leg vice and raising casters so can be static unless needs to move. I have a separate rolling cabs from 18mm mdf same height with small mft tops that lock together one with chop saw on as well and there just right for systainer storage. Looking forward to seeing what you come up with! I'll try and get some pictures into the workbenches group on the website. Thanks Sam
Thanks Sam, I would appreciate the pictures, and even a critique on what you like and don’t, if I could be so bold. I must confess I am swinging left and right on the design. Cheers Andy
Just in the process of getting rid of mine for a sjobergs bench - the MFT is great if all you do is break up sheets but the hand tool and clamping woes youve mentioned have driven me to despair. I also dont find it as accurate as it should be and spend more time fettling and fine tuning it than acutally using the bloody thing!
If you put the weight aside, Find the MFT a good portable bench - I will keep one of the benches for the (occasional) field work. It does have value beyond the big sheet, but agree there are better options for the workshop. The sjobergs bench looks pretty good - I went down the route of self design and build - glad I did, it now meets my needs perfectly. Cheers Andy
I like the concept of the MFT however only Festoon customers would pay extra( at considerable expense) for something that is a serious design flaw. The support for the Kapex ( and the wings) suffer from the same problem I ended up fixing mine to the Dewalt mitre stand and modified the legs of the wings to suit. But really when you think the saw the Festool stand and the wings is @ £2K it's pretty poor.
Yes I like the concept, and to be fair the execution is aimed at a very mobile system that you can take into the field. Giving a level of precision on the job site. I agree the design can easily be improved with the addition of the cross braces. But given the price of the table they should be included. Although the Kapex table suffers from the same problem - it is less of an issue - but you do get a lot of movement on the side extensions. Having said that - I will be selling that as well and building a Mitre type station. The CMS has a similar issue, but the versatility on that outways the issue - but that wil also be going for some shop made replacements. The big decision for me was that I am not doing as much field work as I expected - much more shop based work. So I don’t need the portability - but want to retain the accuracy. Cheers Andy
@@TheWoodgrafter Andy totally agree I would love an MFT but the points you highlighted with regards stability when planing etc make it a non starter for me I use workmates with an MFT dog type top and for large stock /sheets i use a couple of tough built trestles with a frame and MFT top which is rock solid but like you most of my work is shop work now
I hope I keep my promise and leave a link to my workbench. I only have tin sheds in the back yard although I have a buzzer and thicknesser at my mother's house. It's only 250mm wide although plenty of power on single phase.
Man, you weren't kidding when you said a few days ago you were going to do something about the wobbly, over-priced MFTs. It will be fun to see how you address the problems. I'm just buying into Festool capabilities but I have very generous amounts of space available.
Hi Andy, Exited to see what u will be building! I'd highly recommend you looking up the videos sieries of Klavieratelier about his MFT build. I'f you need more precision and versality this seems to me the way to go! The videos are in german but you will het the concept. I for my part am planning to build a portable and modular version of this consisting of 3 saw horses and insertable tables. One MFT section for the tracksaw and drill and one for joinery with a vice. At a later stage this allows me to also build a router insert with the incra positioner. Keep it up and stay healthy!
Yes I have seen that series, awesome bench. My design is now done - stock is ordered and should be hear in a few weeks. The full course will be available over on the website - pre launch price now available. Same to you stay safe and heathy. Andy
Hello. My immediate thoughts were to get the extra supports. It seems some things are not really suited for use on the mft table. Also putting the saw somewhere. You can always have the vacuum under the table to put things onto it or build purpose made shelves under the mft table. Since you have a pretty cool work area, maybe a little small and limited perhaps for clamping material to side rails when planing with a hand file somehow clamp the table to the wall for rigidity. I think make a workbench from steel. You may even use heavy duty castors so you can move them. I just made myself a 2.7'metre long work bench. I'm putting draws on one side then along the top. On the remaining side I put Botton draw runners to put festool tool boxes and other equipment to pull out. So as a summary make a plan that suits your needs. The wider the steel you use the more rigid it is. I used what I had which was 65mm square tube for the sides and 500mm square section for the runners. It doesn't move at all after I welded the carcass. I made 2 draws fitted in with soft close hafele and in the process of buying more runner and making more draws
Thank you Ronald, Some good ideas there, I have decided to make a dedicate bench rather than make do. The design I have is around 3M long with drawer modules underneath for my hand tool collection. It will be based on a wooden frame, designed around a hand tool bench I built many years ago. The Kapex will be on a rolling bases with a module either side (also mobile) that will give me a wider area to work. The modules can also be use as extensions for the CMS that will also be on a rolling table. Design is coming together pretty well. Cheers Andy
The Woodgrafter hope you post it. I'm also thinking of building a purpose made work bench. There are times I want things set up so I can make accurate square cuts. I find I need time setting up the mft table then put Away again. The memory on my phone is full so I was Unable to upload a video. I may use my camera and upload on utube my work bench. Oh, I made a mistake the steel is 50mm shs not 500mm the depth is 580 so I got hafel 550mm soft close draw runners. I find working with wood takes more preparing ( particularly old recycled wood)than ply wood. I won't use malemite any more. Ply wood is easy and quick although I should get back to making some through dovetail and half dovetail projects. I guess I have been a bit slack. I have been making furniture using steel. It's a more industrial look.
Ronald Martens thank you, I have always resisted mixing steel and wood in my design - nothing against steel - just don’t have the space (or time) to do it justice. Haven’t welded for tens and tens of years so my learning curve will be steep. I also tend to use rough cut stock rather than sheet goods - again no reason, I just like it. However - I do have a desk commission coming up soon - I think on that the frame will be laminated sheet goods, but solid top. Would love to see some of your work, when you work out how to upload it. Cheers Andy
I think all the points you make are valid, but with respect none of them are new or have not been raised by others in the past. Will be interesting to see what your design is like.
I am realy curious i wish you would build a solid work table with a leg clamp,mft table with all of the bits you learn & love about it especially the tilt cross cut feature with a dog fence bits... i know you can desinged something like that so you could have more stream line work flow without slowing down... i cant wait i am sure you can best of luck i'll pray for you. ...
Hi And thank you for your comment - strangely I have just designed that very thing - as soon as I can get my hands on some lumber I will starting the build. Andy
I've just tried signing up to your web site , after being told for the tenth time that the nickname I chose had been taken I gave up !! .will just watch your TH-cam as and when .
All good comments. I have some Festool tools but I think allot of their "systems" are way over priced for what they do. I have purpose built tables in my shop, but for on site work, I have developed a system with metal tech scaffolds which can collapse into a van, but expands to a full portable cabinet shop. (see Malcolm mcgrath "lean construction site part 2" for an earlier version of it.
Hi thank you for getting touch. I do like the Festool system, but I will be building a shop bench - and as the field work hasn’t materialised in the way I expected it to - I will also be moving away from the system somewhat. Obviously all this will unfold on the channel over time. Cheers Andy
The Woodgrafter Yep this is true it will. Maybe more than before. However Festool being Festool they sell diagonal leg struts for the MFT as another accessory to help reduce that wobble. :)
Good day I'd say you need more floor area to make life easier and more efficient for your plans and business. The Festool Systems appear to be designed for portability and accuracy. Shop equipment needs to be more robust and without any movement under load which should provide the required accuracy. Good luck with your new ideas Regards Ken Time served Carpenter & Joiner CGLI Adv Craft + much more
Morning, Yes that’s where my thinking got to, when Inset the business up I expected more field work that would require an MFT, in reality that wasn’t case. So the MFT’s ended up as a fixed workbench - hence the change. The systainer idea worked well though, giving a nicely organised workshop - but the ability to grab and go to take tools to the job site. And yes - you can never have enough floor space. In a smaller shop, you are always compromising on space and tool choice. Cheers Andy
ok .. where to start ... I'm fairly deep into festool i have kapex , ts55, 1400 EQ , ct26, and 2 mft3 tables , and i'm a full time high end installer . i have to agree the biggest problem with mft is movement . so i got the crossmembers and it did alot to sturdy them up . i think its ridiculous that they dont come with the mft to start. that being said , i notice you dont have them . now in a shop setting the first thing i would do is make a shelf unit to fit underneath the table so it rests on the cross bars with a notch .. and its not rocket science to make sides of the shelf unit so they fit on the inside of the table frame thus stopping any side to side movement and make the table rock solid . you can make this area tool storage for track saw etc .. once again i say they are most effective on jobsites and i would probably make a function designed table for shop use at a lot less $ . I too favor using dogs vs the standard fence but i havent had the need for repetitive cuts other than 90 and 45's . as far as installation tables go .. they rock .. but only with the cross members . i cut a lil off the legs to make them the same height as my table saw so i have infeed/outfeed tables , i have kreg table clamps for fast hold down for scribing fillers and toe kick . i have track guides for my router to make fluted columns and vented toe kicks on site . there is so many uses for the "system" that its worth it to spend the rediculous prices for festool products .. on top of all i can do all these things in a customers home with very little dust getting airborne .. so .. for install or a small shop mft rocks .. otherwise build your own ;)
Now having the value of hindsight, I agree with your last comment - build your own for the shop. Having said that I have learnt so much. So time to put things right. Love your set up by the way, sounds good. Cheers Andy
We all know these issues . What was your solution to these issues ? Maybe a shelf above the work area on that batten already there for tools ? , a bespoke cnc mft top on a sturdy built bench to the wall with an under shelf for tools ???
Heh Andy can you direct me to the new solution you have produced to replace the MFTs, please? I can't seem to find a video for it on your site. Cheers mate.
Finally, in a short time, I will have a small laboratory (only 18 square meters) and, therefore, I am also thinking of more stable solutions than the MFT bench that has served me very well so far. Have you considered the classic wooden carpenter banknote? with holes for dogs, two vices etc. I did it but I fear it is too specialized and limiting What do you think about it?
Hi, I do have a classic hand tool bench I built many years ago, based on a rubo (not split top). The problem is I have no room to use that and the MFTs. Now I did think about putting a grid of 20mm holes in that - but as it is solid wood I have feeling the accuracy of the grid will drift. I think I have solved it - but let’s see :-) Andy
52fabpre I recently made a 2.7 metre long work bench. I had some left over steel and then bought some more to finish the carcass. I have made stands using 30mm shs square hollow section 2mm wall thickness and bought flat bars. Drilled holes in the middle and then putting 2 together like a cross piece joining two foursides stands together. The workbench I built I used 50mm square hollow section 2.5 mm thick. I think I will weld four sides of 50mm this will be very rigid even if you put flat bars to tie both ends using wing nuts so the whole setup doesn't move. Since building my latest work Bench there is no movement with the wider steel.
Hi, I touched on the design in the last VLOG, modified it since then. But you can see the basics. I will be starting the series over on the web site in the near future. Cheers Andy
Well I didn’t see that coming! Thanks once again. Great stuff. Just started to assess my work space. Like you, I basically have an oversized car space. I want to put all my tools on casters. I do want to keep my mft however. To overcome the stability issue, I’m going to fold the legs in and sit it on its purpose built stump legs on a bench on wheels. (yet to be built). To maintain the correct height the bench will need to be shorter, but I figure that would be ideal as an assembly table. I have bought wheels that work when raised, (pedal lever) but otherwise the bench sits on its own legs. This way the table can be solid, and also accommodate for stuff to be stored better underneath. For years I’ve used a timber caddy I built, that slides on/off the rail of the mft to the right side by t bolts. I can cut, then place the tool on it in one motion, freeing me up to address the work. I also have a swing arm that I built from Dan Patterson’s plans (adapted) that attaches in the same way to take care of the vac hose and cable. This is particularly good when sanding.
Hi Howard, hope all is well. If I was only refitting the shop for me I would also do what you are suggesting. But I want to build something that not only works for my workflow and style - but also that others can learn from. Yes the castor idea is good and I will incorporate that on some of the modules (oh yes more than a bench build). Talk soon, Andy
the bench built are you going to turn that into a how to in Fusion 360 for Woodworkers? the stability of the workbenches and the rail is indeed poor, I was planning to buy this one, but now I'm going to make a workbench myself with indeed enough space to store material away and good clamps to fix workpieces! then I can count on your expertise in the construction of the workbench in terms of connections and the choice of materials ;-) I am happy that I found your lessons, and during this Coivid19 period I have more time to learn something new! I am now retired, and I am not a woodworker but very handy, and I like to work with real wood instead of chipboard
Hi, I don’t currently have a plan to do that, but perhaps if there is enough demand. The bench build is however live over on the website www.the woodgrafter.com Cheers Andy
I finally got to upload a video just for you. I'm pleased with the strength of the bench and still in the process of adding draws and buying soft close draw runners. I may make another work table using 50mm square hollow section. They stay so right rigid. If you make them a certain size you can put clamps to assemble draws. I don't use nails I use stainless steel screws. Yes, I have been lazy I should get back and make dovetails. th-cam.com/video/mnb5GWsICqs/w-d-xo.html Here is the link to the work bench I made and Still working on. Cheers.
The Woodgrafter Thanks Andy. Perhaps the draw runner bar had added to sturdiness. I will certainly use the larger square section to build work benches and tables. I know it's over engineered. I think too many things are under engineered. Cheers.
Hi Andy I was very confused why after having your MFT’s for some time now and have found the back and forth movement a huge source of frustration, why it is that you’ve never taken advantage of the 2 leg braces available. They eliminate the tables movement by at least 90%. Festool charge quite a lot for their leg braces, so I made my own out of 22mm copper pipe and sprayed them grey. They are perfect and as I mentioned virtually totally eliminate any unwanted movement. I did discuss this mod with you shortly after you first started your channel, hence being a little confused that on one hand you rightly mention there is too much movement for certain tasks, yet an easy solution was there to transform the table but you decided not upgrade your tables? I totally understand why you feel the need for a different setup now that you’ve had a fair amount of time in such a small workshop however. Will you still incorporate your LS Positioner ? This video wasn’t particularly long and mainly discussed how best to better utilise your space, however again I’m really surprised you wanting to let your Kapex go? I remember your first review on it and how highly you rated it, has that view changed now and if so what mitre saw will you replace it with? I agree the stand and extensions could be sturdier but I find then okay on site provided they’re set up properly. However when I use it in my workshop I use it on a solid bench. Underneath the Kapex are 4 rubber feet and all I did was to accurately drill 4 corresponding holes in my fixed bench and the Kapex drops straight in. That makes the Kapex extremely stable. I also drilled another 4 hole in my bench to match the 4 holes in the Kapex supports so that I could quickly bolt it to the bench in order to make it bomb proof stable. But honestly that was a waste of time because the Kapex sits so firmly when it’s rubber feet drop into the bench holes that I’ve never needed to bolt it down.
Hi, yes I remember your earlier comments and suggestions. In the end I bought the second MFT and that got me by. For clarity, I am not selling any of my tools - it’s only the tables I am changing. And yes the Incra is staying, in fact when I build the new table for the router, it will still take the CMS modules but give me more bench space and will also include the Incra cross cut sled and mitre. Agree the stands are OK, but I don’t compromise on quality and need my tools to perform without compromise as well. It will all make sense when the shop upgrade starts to come together. Cheers Andy
The Woodgrafter I fully understand where your coming from. I use my MFT out on site a fair bit as well as the workshop, so I need something that will suit both needs. The leg braces totally transform the MFT making it very rigid. It’s disappointing that Festool hasn’t incorporated leg braces into the MFT especially considering the very high price point, but even if they priced it at a more realistic price of say £350, the leg braces should still be included as part of the table. I agree with you that any table/work bench with that much movement is all but useless. As much as I enjoy using my Festool gear, when other trades mention the extremely high purchase price, I’m unable to properly justify their kit at those costs when there are some basic design flaws. I think as much as the MFT is very useful especially when used mobile, it is shameful especially given the ethos they give out, that the MFT is not particularly adequate to perform accurate work which is what Festool is meant to be all about. As you may remember I also have the Kapex 120 which I purchased along with the wheeled stand and out rigger supports with extendable ends. However this setup is again extremely costly but I feel also has design floors. The out riggers [for want of a better word] have only a single leg each end. Although they will hold light stock reasonably okay, if you put a 3.6m length of 95x45 on there the single legged stands suddenly become wobbly. Compared to my 20 year Dewalt 305mm double bevel mitre saw and stand, there is no comparison with the rock solid sturdiness of the 4 legged stand. I’ve actually used the Dewalt stand as a trestle to stand on, not that I recommend it, but it’s so stable I think you could put a 250k weight on it and it wouldn’t budge. The same setup at today’s price is about a third the cost of the festool equivalent. Don’t get me wrong I knew Festool stuff was expensive before purchasing but until you use the Kapex stand and MFT you don’t really have any concept of how inadequate some of their kit is, which for the cost should out shine everything on the market with perhaps the exception of Maifel.
Hi . Why don’t you fold the legs up on your table and make something under the bench you can fix the table solidly to it . I went the other way made a bench myself and the MFT is far more accurate, look at peter Millard he has done that. I personally think you will regret it if you get rid of your Festool equipment. The best of luck either way.
Hi Stuart, Agree, if I where just solving the problem for me then this would be the solution I would go for, but I want to show how to build a low cost modern workbench as part of the online school. Hence going back to the drawing board. Cheers Andy
Hi, Not so much as a problem as an observation, the cross brace is an additional expense on an already expensive table. There are now new and better options than the MFT - that have fixed the stability problem for a lot less investment. People have reported using the cross braces - and whilst it improves things - the 'wobble' is still there. HOWEVER - we need to remember it is designed to be a portable bench, and not a static woodworking bench. So my overarching point is that my needs have changed - so my bench will be changing as well. Cheers Andy
Have you replaced them yet? Just curious why you don't fold the legs up and build a solid base for the MFTs to sit on? That way they wouldn't move around as much and you could build a section at the back to rest your tools on and to stop stuff from falling on the floor.
Hi, The build is ongoing over on the web site, will be talking more about it on the channel in the next few weeks. I did think about a base that took the tables folded up, but in the end I wanted to show a low cost build for the online school - that could be built for under the price of a single MFT. I also wanted to eliminate the inherent bounce you get with MDF, when using hand tools. But want to retain the awesome functionality of the MFT. Cheers Andy
@@TheWoodgrafter after I posted my question I had a look at your website and saw the design for the bench. Looks very cool.. looking forward to seeing some videos on here about it :)
Hi, Cheers, it is coming along pretty well, today in the shop I’ll get the frame glued up an it will be standing on its own two feet. Next week the MDF inserts will be in the top and then it will be revealed to the TH-cam world. Of course those over on the web site see the progress week on week as part of the workbench course. Cheers Andy
Totally agree with your assessment. But missed one important additional issue. I own three MFT’s and found the MDF board to sag over some time. So much for a reference surface (not). I, as you, plan to sell them in about 6 to 9 months.
Hi Roger, Thank you for the feedback. Other people have told me about the ‘sag’ I haven’t found that yet - but I could see it happening - after all it is only 18mm MDF. I am contemplating a solid wooden laminated top with a series of dog holes for Benchdog system. But still thinking that through. Cheers Andy
I find myself priced out of the entire Festool ecosystem. In my area I never see contractors using their stuff. Obviously it works for someone because they keep making it. The MFT set up seems to me someone at Festool saw a welding fixture table and said "Let's make this out of wood and claim we invented it." There has got to be someone (bird house builders, artists, ???) that the Festool Extended universe works great for. Just not me.
Yes it’s not a cheap option. I buy it as part of my business and I do genuinely gain advantage through productivity, accuracy and reliability. It’s not the only game in town by any stretch. But I take your point. Cheers Andy
Hi, thank you for the comment. I actually like the long run of benches in Peter’s shop. I have been catching up on the back catalogue of the ‘measuring up podcast’ in one of the recent (ish) episodes Peter discusses his shop and how he is thinking of changing it up a bit. Allowing for both videos and production. Interesting stuff. Andy
wish you'd stand still making me feel nauseous 🤢 , the mft3 is really a site work bench, the legs are adequate but not awesome i enjoy mine and have considered building a large cuboard on casters to put the bench on without the leg as id love to utilise the space below the bench better. Looking forward to seeing your new build but please could you not do it too well as i am afraid i might get sucked and feel compelled to join in. 👍
Hi Martin, Got hit by lock down so couldn’t get the wood supply. Time flies when you are having fun, I have now ordered some construction lumber (1 month lead time) so will be starting it soon, this will be a web site course though - so won’t be on TH-cam. Cheers Andy
It is difficult to understand the function of an MFT table unless they are made to support the products because even a 250 lb workbench is still not a heavy workbench but only a light heavyweight, especially for hand tools.
Hi, Not sure what you are getting at. The MFT’s are designed to be accurate, portable and used in light applications - but to be fair they do take a lot of weight. But that portability comes at the cost of stability. Cheers Andy
Yes that would work, Since the MFT was originally designed - there are many other solutions in the market, plus a lot of self build designs. Cheers Andy
@@TheWoodgrafter If you connected/unified those two MFT tables with a single top that fit over the dog holes of both tables than you could also make the top longer on the side where you have the gap against the wall. You might even be able to secure this super large top against the wall too.
There is a video that walks you through the bench I replaced them with. Not every one knows the limitations so information is always worth sharing. Cheers Andy
Not sure, was going to put them on eBay. Well one of them anyway - complete with the accessory pack. Will keep one for field work. Where are you based ? Andy
Hi Timothy, Yes but not in the near future, need to build the new bench first. I haven’t looked into the price of these yet - but I would imagine that shipping from the UK to the US would be expensive. Cheers Andy
The MFT is a total ripoff imo. Talking of ripoffs of a different kind Fastcap's ripoff of Ron Paulk's Paulk bench is actually very, very good. Looking forward to seeing the new bench 👍
Hi and thank you for your comment. The MFT is good at what it does - ann in its day broke new ground, however there is just to much on the market to continue to make it the de-facto choice. New design coming soon. Andy
aaron sailer Thanks for the input, I assume that was the Fastcap partnership. I didn’t know that. I like Ron’s design - if it was pure power tools and portability I’m my workflow - then that would be my choice. However, really want those hand tools back in the workflow. Andy
Did I catch that right? Does your ts55 go in your router table? I made a plate for mine so I can switch from router table to table saw, I’m America the government has prevented us that luxury
Hi yes, in Europe we had the Festool CMS system. This would take a number of inserts. The router, the track saw, the jigsaw and the belt sander (I think). It was a good potable solution I used it for many years in the shop until I built the new bench (after I sold the MFT’s). Sadly is has been discontinued now, they come up in eBay now and then. Cheers Andy
These tables are good, but insanely overpriced imo. $600 for the mft/3 Basic. Want stability, that'll cost you another $86 for the cross members; ridiculous. I know its Festool but still. And to think a price hike is coming in April.
They are great tables, and they probably re-invented what accuracy in a small table should be. However - competitors, Parf system and low cost CNC solutions must have cut into the market - so a price hike is an interesting strategy. Cheers Andy
Hi Andy, I too have been pondering a bench AND storage type system for a one car garage and then I found the following th-cam.com/video/jR__Uj7vopI/w-d-xo.html The system is a solid base for a bench, has storage underneath for drawers and/or cupboards but best of all it is modular, so it can be adapted for personal requirements. It's definitely worth having a look. As always I appreciate the time, effort and thought which has gone into your video production
Thank you for the link, Yes that looks good, sort of similar but with a heavier frame to reduce ‘bounce’. Thank you for the feedback as well. Talk soon. Andy
You don't have to get carried away with it. A good workbench needs: 1> Perfectly flat surface. 2> Perfectly square corners. 3> No exposed metal fixtures which you might catch with a wood blade. 4> Enough surface to be able to support the whole of your work piece. 5> A method to secure a work piece. (Vice) 6> A method to hold thin work for operation like planing, cutting or chisel work. (dogs) 7> A sturdy stand which can handle weight, does not move & can be hammered on. 8> An ability to allow you to apply secure clamps in as many ways as possible. 9> A common work surface height with EVERY other surface in your shop.
You have nailed it, I would add a place to put my tools mid workflow and the ability to facilitate fast accurate repeatable cuts. I am going to use this list to set my design requirements in the concept video. Cheers Andy
Thanks Jimmy, The CMS will be on the market, but the bad news is I will be keeping the modules - I am going to see if I can set them into the top of one of the workbench modules. But if you are interested in a 240v CMS, with VR extension and sliding table. Then drop me an email andrew@thewoodgrafter.com Cheers Andy
Hi, now that is a very good question. When I set up the shop, I expected to be doing much more site based work than I actually do. So wanted that portability between shop and site. Experience now tells me that was probably not my best idea ever. Cheers Andy
he has a very similar situation with small workshop,but he seems to have got the best out of the festool system.shame to sell them and lose money.might get some ideas from him.cheers.
Ahh got it, he has his as part of a run of benches - so probably wouldn’t have the same issue. From memory he also uses it in the folded configuration on a stand. He does different work than I do - I.E. doesn’t have the hand tool issue. I know he is looking at his set up and discussing a re-design so will see what that brings. Cheers Andy
You need to get to the title in 7 seconds or less and front load your videos if you want people to watch. Having a 75 second introduction is complete nonsense and discouraged by anybody and everybody with huge followings (think Mr. Beasts), which is what I think you are trying to reach eventually. The average youtuber will watch a video for 7 seconds and if you don't get to the title...they will click off. You have an introduction 10x that long. Maybe harsh but I'm actually trying to help you...otherwise I would have just clicked off the video and wrote nothing. Best of luck.
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Good points. The MFT is optimized to process sheet good accurately and safely.
The more traditional strategy to breakdown sheet goods efficiently and accurately is to have an industrial sized table saw with a huge sliding table. That requires a big shop and deep pockets.
Well said I totally agree I’ve been in the joinery business for over 40years and know there’s no substitute for a solid heavy workbench with a couple of vices and some holes in 4” thick worktop for holdfast mine has storage underneath and sits in the middle of my garage in total must be 1/2 ton there’s nothing I can’t hold securely
Thank you,
Yes I also have a very large heavy hand tool bench that I built years ago, solid wood, 4” top, dog holes, leg vice, end vice and nice forged hold fasts.
And it doesn’t move, perhaps it is the experience of working on that bench that highlights the challenges I face with the MFT.
BUT the big bench can’t hold a torch to the MFT in terms of the accuracy and speed you get from that grid of 20mm holes. And given the size of the workshop, I can’t have both.
I did think about putting a grid of 20mm holes in the hand tool bench - but I think that the accuracy would drift as things expand and contract.
So that is the challenge - how to get the benefits of both.
Cheers
Andy
I solved the tool storage issue by building a simple shelf that rests on the horizontal spreaders on the legs. Do the work, chuck the tools on the shelf. Easy peasy.
Thanks Mark,
Sounds like a quick an easy solution.
I imagine it also reduced some of that wobble.
Cheers
Andy
Great review, I bought a festool MFT and agree totally. It is perfect for jobsite use but not as a one stop solution in a workshop!
Hi Nick,
Thanks for the feedback.
Great portable table - but not the best for the shop.
Cheers
Andy
I really enjoy your approach. You explain “why” and don’t simply relay your conclusions. Very informative.
Thank you,
It’s more about sharing my experiences, hopefully it will help others. Some of this stuff is expensive and it’s not always easy to find a balanced view.
Cheers
Andy
Andy, great discussion! Highlighting requirements of other commentators - precision, accuracy, repeat-ability, convenience, sturdiness, economy and speed working with small-large sheet goods, flat stock and blocks. Two ways how this is done - move work to tool and move tool to work. The first way are drill press, table saw, joiner, band saw etc.. Until recently this offered greatest accuracy within budgets of most woodworkers. The second way are portable saw/guide, router, drill etc.. Recent advances like track saws, Parf, MFT have elevated accuracy to approach fixed tools in the first group, within acceptable budgets - but compromising sturdiness & stability in heavy-handed operations. Hybrids of both ways - CNC, Milling Machines, etc. have high cost, large footprint and steep learning curve. So the challenge is to get it all in one solution. If that is not possible, maybe consider two solutions that work together - like a drop/fold-down MFT that attaches to a traditional workbench w/storage, with portable power tool & accessory storage on the wall behind the drop-down.
👍Well needed discussion. I just bought my first Festool saw, and I am contemplating the options of a parf dog build table versus the Festool MFT/3. Thanks for putting this out!
Hi Robert,
Thank you for the feedback. I know what I am going to do :-)
Andy
I purchased an Axminster DIY workbench which has some dog holes in it and has 2 vices, it is sturdy and great for traditional woodworking, I am going to put an MFT style top on a purpose built bench in my 10x8 shed to use for sheet cutting, assembly and finishing as I have gone away from using my table saw and mitre saw to using hand tools. My mitre saw is now a Nobex as my projects tend to be small ones as my shed is small and it is a hobby. Thanks for sharing your ideas and plans for the future.
Hi Ray, thank you for sharing this.
I have gone the other way - from hand tools to power tools, now leaning back to hand tools so will end somewhere in the middle.
Cheers
Andy
I have the same kit therefore share the same woes with the MFT. Standing by to see your solutions.
Thank you for the comment, Won’t be long now, will probably out a design video out on TH-cam - but then the deep dirty build over on the web site.
Cheers
Andy
Oh my goodness, this is wildly helpful, thank you so much for making this!
I LOVE my couple of Festool tools, but when it came to the workbench, like you, small space and stability was required not portability. I wasn’t happy with the stability of the Festool MFT. So I built a heavy Roubo bench and use traditional spring steel holdowns and a birdsmouth. Never regretted it! and no holes for small stuff to fall through.
Before the festool I had a shop built bench with hold downs and bench dogs. Really great bench.
One thing you could try is removing the legs of the mft's then adding purpose built bases to them. It would fix some of the issues like stability. Might not be the best option right now but if you ever get a bigger shop one day you could try it out.
Thanks for this, yes that would work as an idea - but I also want to try and help others who are thinking about this.
So going for a new build
Cheers
Andy
So helpfull, because so true and to the point. I´m building a new workbench, will go for mft-ish design, but without the drawbacks (dead space underneath, wobblyness of the table, blocked t-tracks etc). This video made it clearer to me, what the benefits as well as the limitations of a mft are. Thx for sharing
My pleasure, glad it added value. The MFT is a great for field work (although there are now much better option).
The bench I built instead is also MFT style, making better use of the space and very solid. I have a video on it somewhere.
Cheers
Andy
I too work out of a one car garage. I have an MFT but don't use it for the same reasons you mentioned and it's stored in the other room. I just bought a lightly used MFT top and mounted it on top of a roll around cart in the shop. I am going to install some type of legs on the cart that will make it more solid and take the wheels out of the equation. The cart rolls under the wing of my Radial Arm Saw and my CT26 dust extractor is stored under the top in the cart. There is a shelf on the side for parking the tools. One thing I have noticed about the Festool system is that you must have storage for the systainers and another place to park the tools. In the shop it does not make sense to put the tool back in the systainer every time you use it. That's fine for the ones you use occasionally, but not practical for the ones you use frequently. I am anxious to see what you come up with. This is a problem for a lot of us.
Thank you, it sounds like a nice setup.
I actually like the systainer as a storage solution in the shop. The sysport was one of the best things I ever built - even in the small shop it is worth it.
But I get what you mean, the boxes do take up a lot of space.
Cheers
Andy
I think you have realized that the mobile functionality of the MFT system no longer meets your needs and you want more of a permanent layout shop. I on the other hand went from having a dedicated 762 sq ft shop with all the big tools and carpenter benches, to a 2 car garage that has to hold 2 cars. Of all those tools I had I only kept my sliding miter saw and my sjoberg bench. After a few months it was clear that there just wasn’t going to be enough space.
So I bought into the Festool ecosystem and it works out perfect for me. Number one, I do this for my own pleasure as a stress relief and am not making production runs. Number 2 I don’t need to haul things to jobsites. But I do need to be able to set up quickly, get lots of versatility to the dollar, and pack it all away so the cars can be back inside. This system works well for me. The point is, find the system that works for you and meets your needs.
I looked at the Paulk system before buying the MFT and there is nothing wrong with it. But I figured I could either spend my time duplicating a Paulk station or unbox an MFT and get to work. There is a cost either way and you spend what you can. I haven’t bought any of my Festool items new and have patiently kept my eye out for discounted 2nd hand pieces.
Enjoy your videos. Thanks.
Hi Jeff,
Yes exactly you have it bang on :-)
It’s about the use of the MFT in my situation and the type of things I build and how I build them, rather than a review of the MFT.
For you in your situation it works very well, I expected to be doing much more work in the field - in reality I am doing more work in the shop - and given I have that space dedicated, I don’t need the portability and the understandable compromise that brings.
And you still have the sjoberg workbench if you need a bit more stability in your work.
Thank you for sharing and taking the time to comment.
Cheers
Andy
Well done Jeff.
'Suitable for portability but not the workshop'. Agreed. Just like systainers. In a workshop they require seven steps to retrieve a tool (pull, unlock, open, pick tool, close, lock, push). Four more than a drawer. Six more than a shelf. Any very inefficient space-wise. No wonder you struggle for where to put your tools. Keep them for site use.
My solution to MFT functionality (without all the problems) is to have a palk type module that fits on top of my tablesaw/router bench. Simple, solid, and MUCH cheaper. Hooks on wall when not in use. Bench is lever lift wheeled- very movable but locks solid. Overhead power and vacuum system plus clip on tools-in-use holders. No dead space (tool drawers etc). I recommend it as a system.
Hi Mike,
Thanks for the feedback - I hadn’t thought about systainers in terms of workflow, now you have mentioned it I will watching myself on the next project.
A place to put the tools is more about during the workflow.
Good thoughts on the tool bench,
Cheers
Andy
Bits of add on's to the back rail to mange dogs, screw drivers, clamps, tool holders and other fittings does the trick for me. Keeping my table and the MT1000 extension. Love to see what you do come up with though.
Hi Warren,
Thank you for the comment, I still haven’t nailed the design - I have something in my head, but can’t help but think it may be overly complicated.
I am going to drop it into Sketchup tomorrow and see what I think. This will be the third different design.
So watch this space
Andy
@@TheWoodgrafter think about the types of cuts for the woodworking you will be making using 80/10/5 other percent. Mine was sheetgoods, 90 & 45 degree cuts. Then build your workflow accordingly. And never discount the odd ball job and how you will do it and move it about the shop. Good luck.
I very much appreciate this information. I have been looking at the MFT as an option. I may still purchase them. But this reinforces my thoughts on them as a permanent shop fixture mounted atop a base cabinet system with storage drawers. Thank you!
Nice discussion. Totally valid points, well phrased. But regarding stability: I added Festool's diagonal braces to my MFT/3 and wow, they make a gigantic difference in stability. Without the braces, it was exactly as wobbly as you note. With the braces, my MFT/3 is rock solid. (Officially, they're the Festool 495502 MFT Cross Members.) I bought them because a bunch of people on the FOG (Festool Owner's Group online) recommended them for dramatically enhancing stability, and they were absolutely right. Festool really should include them as part of the MFT/3 package.
Oh, and I cut a sheet of plywood, notched the corners, and dropped it in as a shelf across the legs' front-to-back cross bars. Holds all my clamps & dogs, and is a place for setting down the tools. Mine's primitive - just a big shelf, really. But one could easily drop a more sophisticated set of shelves or even cabinets in there.
And I'm wondering about making a drop-on-top "moxon" style vise to solve the side-clamping issue.
Apart from that, yes, for non-portable working, I'd rather have a 'real' workbench of a properly useful size. With flip-up/flip-down wheels for rolling things around.
Hi Paul,
Thank you for the input - yes agree those braces make a difference and I imagine your tool shelf has added even more stability.
One of our subscribers also made a set of braces that looked like a good alternative.
However, as most of my work is now workshop based - I want something more substantial. Hence the new bench.
Cheers
Andy
Thankyou Andy for your advice, I was so close and tempted to buy a MFT but the wobble and the sizes etc always where niggling pain in the back of my mind, so back to the drawing board for me mate, keep up the great videos, Louie.
AMEN to all your comments on the MFT/3. I own one, plus the MW1000 with table - they're fine for sanding, sawing, assembly and so on - but almost no help with hand tool use - especially planing. I was trying to do some quick planing on a single piece yesterday and it was difficult to get good shavings and a good surface because of the vibration. HOWEVER, for a portable solution, the MFT/3 and/or MW1000 is pretty hard to beat. I even got the leg braces for the MFT/3 - no real help for hand tool use. I am so space-limited that I often will pull the MFT/3 out to work on larger pieces outside my garage workshop. If I need stability for smallish pieces, I either clamp a Sjobergs Smart Workbench Pro to my cast iron table saw, or use two Festool Vac Sys clamping modules mounted on the table saw. I don't have room for a full workbench, but that would be first on my list to build or buy if I did. Love your channel - sorry I've been a little work-occupied lately and not too present.
No problems on the absence, you are always welcome here. Hope all is OK.
Agree the MFT is great at what it does, just doesn’t do what I need. So time for a change.
Strange. I would love a cast iron table saw, but due to space have prioritised the workbench. If we joined the two shops together we may have a solution :-)
Talk soon.
Andy
@@TheWoodgrafter A bit of a long distance to work together... I started woodworking with a Shopsmith - a 5-in-one workshop (lathe, table saw, vertical drill press, sander, and even a router/shaper), that took up about as much space as a bicycle. It did 5 things (or more), but none of them well - especially the table saw. The aluminum table actually flexed from the weight of wood put on it, was underpowered (110V), and was really difficult to get truly square cuts on it. It had a little bandsaw attachment and even a thickness planer attachment I finally got fed up with it, sold it all and bought the most solid table saw I could afford - a 220v Delta Unisaw with a really good fence. It is solid... from there added a decent lathe, band saw, drill press, jointer/planer, and now a 2'x4' cnc - and I have no room for a bench... It's a little crowded.
I use an MFT and a traditional workbench ideal combination. I was lucky and got a bench from Richard Maguire before he stopped making them. It is his version of a Rubio bench and it is excellent, if you get a chance to get one you would not regret it. He does have a video on his website (paid for video) on the making of a bench but not his Rubio bench.
Hi Tim,,
I have a traditional bench based on Rubo - made it some years ago, in fact the FREE videos and plans are over on the web site.
I would love to have that combination - but don’t have the room. So looking to make something that gives me the best of both worlds.
Cheers
Andy
Love this channel
Love festool too but to have a full system like yours
Is way out of my reach
So hopefully this new bench your building will be far more
Sensible price wise
Really intrigued with what your design will be
👍😊
Hi Graham,
Yes I want to make this affordable - one of the main reasons why I am not just building a mobile cart.
Keep watching :-)
Cheers
Andy
Nothing beats a tailored solution!
For hand tool uses, I find that a traditional workbench, with a solid vise (a la Paul Sellers for instance) is very hard to beat.
There is a place for bench dog grid based systems when using power tools, but I find that a large temporary work surface with holes on trestles (mine is a 170x90cm sheet of MDF with holes made with the Parf system) is fit for purpose. A viable alternative is Dave Stanton's design on top of a sturdy table which can be repurposed for other uses.
Ideally all these surfaces (bench dog grid, traditional woodworking workbench, top of mitre saw stand, top of table saw and router table, etc.) will be at the same height and easily moveable to suit the needs of each project.
While at it, the Festool boxes are nice, but not well suited for a workshop environment where they waste a lot of space. Drawers and shelves allow for better use of space and workflow in my experience
I'll be interested to see what you end up with!
Hi Francois, yes I have a hand made hand tool bench, lovely 4” top, leg vice and good old dog holes for hold fasts.
I really admire Paul’s work - but not a fan of the type of bench he favours. More of a single top Rubo type guy.
The challenge, as always, is all about space - so need to find a compromise solution. I have seen the on top solution - but want something more permanent than that.
Hi 100% everything will be the same height, and probably modular so things can be moved around.
Probably going for drawers, as I want to have some safe storage for my hand tool collection.
All will be revealed soon.
Andy
Hi Andy I am building a bench system in the near future look forward to you next video
Steve
Thanks Steve,
Any tips for me ?
Cheers
Andy
Completely agree with a lot of this. The MFT is for a very specific use. I still really like mine for now, but tool storage is a challenge and the compass fairly useless. In hindsight the Basic model would have sufficed. I've used home made side mount holders for my TSC 55 and Domino, which works great. To combat the dead space I made custom trolleys with SYS-AZ using aluminium profile from KJN. I did try the Paulk design but it became a dumping ground and I kept losing and rebuying things...I just don't have the discipline to keep things tidy. My new shop philosophy is, minimal horizontal surfaces and everything must have an unobstructed home.
Thank you for the feedback, great philosophy.
Cheers
Andy
I agree “a place for everything and everything in its place “ I know it, I understand it, but it’s probably the biggest time hole to get the “right” place for everything. I don’t have a mft and I do have a Paulk bench 36”x72” that is awesome for many of the reasons afore mentioned it is very stable, still portable, has tool storage, extremely accurate and the horses store long clamps, mouldings, and trac rails. I’ve also made a shelf on the top front arm of the sawhorses that protrudes 1” further than the top, it supports materials wider than 21” for edge work. As I reinvent my work space I will be using Ron’s concepts more.
I agree with the stability issues you raised. For the price it should be a more stable table. Good points all around but I still would buy one understanding all the negatives you raised as there are also lots of positives. Can’t wit to see what you build. I would buy the tables when you are ready to sell and ship to Florida USA
Hi Richard,
Yes it is a good table, and the accuracy can’t be discounted. In fact I will be selling the one with accessories and keeping the other back to use on the job site.
The new bench is coming along nicely - the course is live over the web site.
I will be creating an overview video when it is completed.
Cheers
Andy
I’m glad I found your channel. Great content. Thanks for sharing your time.
Hi Mark,
Great to have you here and thanks for the comment.
Andy
My suggestion is to build a table top torsion box that is 3 inches in height and also has dog holes where you want them. It gives you the best of both clamp worlds - using Festool clamping or more traditional tools that go in traditional, heavy thick bench tops. Put the top on a heavy, Rubou style base. Add casters (Rockler in USA) that allow you to easily move the bench. I made mine for about $200 and love it. Festool products were never intended for hand tool work - they are for cabinet professionals that need dust control, accuracy and portability.
Hi Jeff,
Yes good solution, The problem I would have is storing the torsion box. Mid project the workshop is pretty full so wouldn’t have room for it.
Cheers
Andy
The problem with this is that holes in the table top are different in modern and ancient usage. The kind of deal where one can hammer in a hold down on a trad bench, is not the same deal as MFT holes aligned to the thou and used as positioning for jigs. They could theoretically be combined, because even on MFT benches, not all the uses are the same: Three common uses are bench part alignment, like miter saw wings, as on Paulk benches, these do not require MFT, though it is convenient; Hold downs, but such as do not damage the MFT accuracy, so L clamps, and these need a thin top; Hyper accurate jigs, such as for crosscut fences, but I have seen an MFT system where the guy preferred two small reference pins on his track, and the MFT was doing nothing, so you can get almost total MFT function from a smaller selection of holes, and could probably mix in heavy bench sections for classic hold downs, or use screw hold downs as per Lee Valley, that are not quite so destructive.
Boy I wish I could go back in time and buy all festool products.
Hi Kevin,
It’s always a fine line isn’t it. Buy quality buy once or buy slightly cheaper, learn why you need and then upgrade.
I have some Festool tools I shouldn’t have bought. And recently needed a plan sander so purchased a Bosch. Time will tell if that was a good idea.
Cheers
Andy
A lot of the issues seem like they could be solved by either building a shelf/cabinet/cubby below or behind the mft to store tools. Alternatively just create a folding table or wall shelving for temporary storage that stick out under the tracks.
Agree,
There are many ways to fix the problems, I think the point of the video was to position the MFT as a mobile bench with other options available for the workshop.
Now I have built the new bench, it is a different world and I have no regrets.
Cheers
Andy
Great perspective on the true value of the MFT which is predominantly for portability . I understand how you got to that point, like you said, originally you wanted to do more onsite work. I think the track saw is the first thing that gets us all into Festool in the first place and then makes us a bit irrational for all the other Festools. The Festool Tracksaw & Guide allows for precision cuts on large sheet material in tight areas whick fitted the bill. If you're planning on doing more hand tool work where stability and clamping is pinnacle, then you'll love making yourself a hefty solid and stable workbench.
Good luck with the coming projects; i'll look them up to see.
Norm from Montreal, Canada.
Hi Norm,
Thank you for the feedback, the new bench is not finished and it is a different world, the MFT served a purpose - but if I where to start again.......
I agree, Festool is addictive and the combination of an MFT top and a track saw is a game changer - so a lot of folks will end up with a similar set up. AND if you are in the field you have a great portable solution.
However, for the workshop a dedicated bench is a better option (and I incorporated the MFT top into mine) it has worked out really well.
Plus as MFT tops become easier to make and buy, there are better options for the field worker.
Cheers
Andy
Hi Andy, perfect timing as I was wanting to build myself a workbench. I'd looked at the mft and really pleased I saw this before laying out the cash for one. I saw your bench dogs video and purchased the rail and stops when at Makers Central last year. I also purchased the Parf guide for making the mft top so now all I need is the inspiration for the bench. Looking forward to following along. Great channel, thanks for the time and effort you take to explain things so well.
Hi,
Glad you are finding value in the videos, thank you for the feedback.
Yes I love Ralph’s gear, and that will be a key feature of the new build. I am thinking of popping over to Makers this year - just for a look around.
What did you think last year - worth a visit ?
Andy
@@TheWoodgrafter Will you be presenting your new bench builds in future episodes? I came to the same conclusion as you and David, basically that the MFT is too small and unstable, basically a bench for using onsite not in the workshop.
Nuova Zeta
Hi yes, I will introduce it on this channel in a few weeks time.
However, the detailed build will be on the web site at www.thewoodgrafter.com
Kind Regards
Andy
Finally, in a short time, I will have a small laboratory (only 18 square meters) and, therefore, I am also thinking of more stable solutions than the MFT bench that has served me very well so far. Have you considered the classic wooden carpenter banknote? with holes for dogs, two vices etc. I did it but I fear it is too specialized and limiting.
What do you think about it?
I made a MFT paulk style workbench with a sliding deadman thats 900mm wide and 2160mm long. The wheel kit enables it to sit flat on the floor when not being wheeled around and weighs over 200KG when nothing is inside it.
If I was going to start again the one thing I would do would be to work on embedding some extrusion into the sides to more simulate the mft for more clamping possibilities. I have a few Kreg bench vise' mounted around it but feel like a full length extrusion would be been more versatile.
Hi Daniel, great feedback. Thank you.
Like the idea of the deadman, and agree long t slot extrusion is a must.
What wheel kit did you use ?
Cheers
Andy
@@TheWoodgrafter they were workbench castor's from axminster.
www.axminster.co.uk/axminster-workbench-castors-507151
Some people weld or bolt each side together so they can raise and lower the whole side with one foot action.
If you want a sturdy top but still want to keep the dog holes 25mm is your maximum thickness before the curve of the festool clamps can't make it around the corner in the dog holes.
(The axminster rail clamps don't open as much as the festool ones so they only work on Max 18mm worktops)
@@TheWoodgrafter If you haven't already found buyers I'd be interested in the exact bits you are selling and how much you want for them. I'd like to have a more mobile setup in addition to my main bench :)
Daniel Phillips
Hi, I will probably keep one of the MFT’s and sell the other one - I will also be including the accessory kit.
I will also be selling on the Kapex MFT and the two extension arms.
I will be keeping the CMS, and building the often mentioned mobile base and use that with the legs folded up. But I will be selling the VM extension table.
I haven’t put them on the market as yet - obviously need to build the new stuff before I sell the old. So if you are interested then open to offers. Otherwise will just put them on eBay.
Contact me privately if you want to talk more info@thewoodgrafter.com
Obviously I am based in the UK, don’t really want to mess about with international shipping costs.
Cheers
Andy
Interested to see what you come up with....... I only really use the mft for dimensioning stock - I have a proper workbench with a vice for planing and joinery.
My saw horses fit nicely under the mft, utilising space. I wish it was a tad more stable though....
Im yet to see someone come up with a variation I prefer. For me there is too much utility in being able to quickly lift and lower the guide rail.
In addition the support bracket and pin gives the rail more rack resistantace than any other method I've seen. I work with varying stock widths, not much sheet materials so it's a real must for me.
Will look forward to your progress.
Hi,
I have space constraints otherwise I would have my hand tool bench in the shop and an assembly table.
But we all have to compromise. The Benchdogs.co.uk system has been a game changer for me. So long as I have some 90degree ref holes in the bench then I am good to go.
Still finalising the design but I think I may be able to have a hand tool style bench. With some strategic holes for the Benchdog system.
Watch this space.
Andy
@@TheWoodgrafter - yes I liked the look of the bench dog fence. I was a little put off by its inability to go underneath the guide rail. I've ordered the new parf fence and am hoping it works well in practicality.
I use the mft for accurate, repeatable, matching dados also - using the guided OF. Thats another reason your style of set up won't work very well for me......
Great work Andy, currently designing a new bench, hybridising a Paulk style construction with hopefully some front clamping ability, looking forward to your new design.
Hi Warren,
Sounds good - yes I am also having front clamping probably the simple incra T slot - just need to check if the Festool clamps will fit prior to the final decision.
I will also be including a leg vice.
Look forward to seeing what you come up with as well.
Cheers
Andy
Well Andy, I made a steel mft table to accommodate my mft table. I made it so I can take it apart. The steel unit bolts on. I made the frame 1,200 by 900mm and with the ply wood on top it's 898mm so a fraction lower than the mft table depending on the sacrificial piece. The table is more than twice the weight of an mft table although it's solid as.
I plan to have a detachable fence and make it so it cuts precise square cuts.
You can clamp work pieces onto it and it's solid and rigid. I still need to work out how to put a fence with a ruler and stop so it makes repetitive cuts and cuts to a certain size. I need to tap some threads for the top. I will do that tomorrow. Thought I let you know Andy.
Sounds good,
Did you go for the 20mm grid on the top, or have you left it as a single ply slab.
I don’t think you can beet the 20mm MFT style grid and that would accommodate some great third party fences that give you precision, stops and the measure you are looking for.
Cheers
Andy
The Woodgrafter I bought external structural pine ply. Problem is it needs plenty fixings which I tapped 6mm bolts. No holes in it yet. I made a few stuff ups running the threads as one cross threaded. It's best to actually clamp the work piece down and drill to thread at the same time to then screw in bolts. If I even need to replace the sacrificial board I wouldn't know how to line up to existing holes. I guess I can drill wider holes. The mft table must have been built using cad work and large large machines opposed to building by hand.
A proper vice on a proper bench will allow you to plane effectively
I think I'd look at making a mobile cart type system like The WoodWhisper. Remove the MFT legs and use them atop the cart. Improve stability with locking casters or similar. Allows you to use underneath for storage or tool caddies. Ability to pull cart away from wall or push back as needed. Maybe on one of the carts make it abit bigger so you can have an extension and mount a proper vice?
Just tuck the legs underneath folded away instead of removing them, then you can just take the table off and be mobile with it if need be.
Hi Simon,
Yes I have thought about that, and it would be a good solution.
However, I want to create a bench that folks starting off can build - as part of the on line school I am developing. Plus the various tables have some value in the second hand world so will recover some of the initial investment.
Cheers
Andy
Hi Williamn01, yes that is what I would do if I where going down the mobile cart route suggested by Simon.
I will probably keep one of the MFT’s back for site based work.
Cheers
Andy
@@TheWoodgrafter better to have a nice stable base it its going to be static anyway mate just stick some castors or whatever on it, quick release ones or something rockler do a set, quite like the look of the screw adjustable gear type I'm going to actually try a set of them myself. Looking forward to the build anyway bud 👍
williamn01 thank you,
I will drop Peter Parfait a line over at the New Brit Workshop, he used some interesting castors.
Cheers
Andy
Hi Andy, great video sounds like your going to make something a little similar to my bench (although you will make it 100x better). I've including thinks like a paulk workbench and parf top, then leg vice and raising casters so can be static unless needs to move. I have a separate rolling cabs from 18mm mdf same height with small mft tops that lock together one with chop saw on as well and there just right for systainer storage. Looking forward to seeing what you come up with! I'll try and get some pictures into the workbenches group on the website. Thanks Sam
Thanks Sam,
I would appreciate the pictures, and even a critique on what you like and don’t, if I could be so bold.
I must confess I am swinging left and right on the design.
Cheers
Andy
HI Peter Millard has a good workshop set up, great videos keep up the good work. Mark
Hi Mark,
Yes he does, but he is thinking of changing round now he is focusing more on TH-cam.
I will be interested to see what he comes up with.
Andy
Great video I like the way you explain things.
Hi,
Thank you for the feedback.
Cheers
Andy
Just in the process of getting rid of mine for a sjobergs bench - the MFT is great if all you do is break up sheets but the hand tool and clamping woes youve mentioned have driven me to despair. I also dont find it as accurate as it should be and spend more time fettling and fine tuning it than acutally using the bloody thing!
If you put the weight aside, Find the MFT a good portable bench - I will keep one of the benches for the (occasional) field work. It does have value beyond the big sheet, but agree there are better options for the workshop.
The sjobergs bench looks pretty good - I went down the route of self design and build - glad I did, it now meets my needs perfectly.
Cheers
Andy
I like the concept of the MFT however only Festoon customers would pay extra( at considerable expense) for something that is a serious design flaw. The support for the Kapex ( and the wings) suffer from the same problem I ended up fixing mine to the Dewalt mitre stand and modified the legs of the wings to suit. But really when you think the saw the Festool stand and the wings is @ £2K it's pretty poor.
Yes I like the concept, and to be fair the execution is aimed at a very mobile system that you can take into the field.
Giving a level of precision on the job site. I agree the design can easily be improved with the addition of the cross braces. But given the price of the table they should be included.
Although the Kapex table suffers from the same problem - it is less of an issue - but you do get a lot of movement on the side extensions. Having said that - I will be selling that as well and building a Mitre type station.
The CMS has a similar issue, but the versatility on that outways the issue - but that wil also be going for some shop made replacements.
The big decision for me was that I am not doing as much field work as I expected - much more shop based work. So I don’t need the portability - but want to retain the accuracy.
Cheers
Andy
@@TheWoodgrafter Andy totally agree I would love an MFT but the points you highlighted with regards stability when planing etc make it a non starter for me
I use workmates with an MFT dog type top and for large stock /sheets i use a couple of tough built trestles with a frame and MFT top which is rock solid but like you most of my work is shop work now
Love it. Thank you.
I hope I keep my promise and leave a link to my workbench.
I only have tin sheds in the back yard although I have a buzzer and thicknesser at my mother's house. It's only 250mm wide although plenty of power on single phase.
Thanks Ronald.
Looking forward to the links
Cheers
Andy
And with extruded ally track to front and back to take clamps and festool drop down track
Nearly,
Moved away from the drop down track.
Man, you weren't kidding when you said a few days ago you were going to do something about the wobbly, over-priced MFTs. It will be fun to see how you address the problems. I'm just buying into Festool capabilities but I have very generous amounts of space available.
Hi Mark,
Yep change is a comin. I would love more space.
Keep looking at local units - but not tempted just yet.
Cheers
Andy
Hi Andy,
Exited to see what u will be building!
I'd highly recommend you looking up the videos sieries of Klavieratelier about his MFT build. I'f you need more precision and versality this seems to me the way to go! The videos are in german but you will het the concept. I for my part am planning to build a portable and modular version of this consisting of 3 saw horses and insertable tables. One MFT section for the tracksaw and drill and one for joinery with a vice. At a later stage this allows me to also build a router insert with the incra positioner.
Keep it up and stay healthy!
Yes I have seen that series, awesome bench.
My design is now done - stock is ordered and should be hear in a few weeks. The full course will be available over on the website - pre launch price now available.
Same to you stay safe and heathy.
Andy
Hello. My immediate thoughts were to get the extra supports. It seems some things are not really suited for use on the mft table.
Also putting the saw somewhere. You can always have the vacuum under the table to put things onto it or build purpose made shelves under the mft table.
Since you have a pretty cool work area, maybe a little small and limited perhaps for clamping material to side rails when planing with a hand file somehow clamp the table to the wall for rigidity. I think make a workbench from steel. You may even use heavy duty castors so you can move them. I just made myself a 2.7'metre long work bench. I'm putting draws on one side then along the top. On the remaining side I put Botton draw runners to put festool tool boxes and other equipment to pull out.
So as a summary make a plan that suits your needs. The wider the steel you use the more rigid it is. I used what I had which was
65mm square tube for the sides and 500mm square section for the runners. It doesn't move at all after I welded the carcass. I made 2 draws fitted in with soft close hafele and in the process of buying more runner and making more draws
Thank you Ronald,
Some good ideas there, I have decided to make a dedicate bench rather than make do. The design I have is around 3M long with drawer modules underneath for my hand tool collection.
It will be based on a wooden frame, designed around a hand tool bench I built many years ago.
The Kapex will be on a rolling bases with a module either side (also mobile) that will give me a wider area to work. The modules can also be use as extensions for the CMS that will also be on a rolling table.
Design is coming together pretty well.
Cheers
Andy
The Woodgrafter hope you post it.
I'm also thinking of building a purpose made work bench. There are times I want things set up so I can make accurate square cuts. I find I need time setting up the mft table then put
Away again.
The memory on my phone is full so I was
Unable to upload a video.
I may use my camera and upload on utube my work bench. Oh, I made a mistake the steel is 50mm shs not 500mm the depth is 580 so I got hafel 550mm soft close draw runners. I find working with wood takes more preparing ( particularly old recycled wood)than ply wood. I won't use malemite any more. Ply wood is easy and quick although I should get back to making some through dovetail and half dovetail projects. I guess I have been a bit slack.
I have been making furniture using steel.
It's a more industrial look.
Ronald Martens thank you,
I have always resisted mixing steel and wood in my design - nothing against steel - just don’t have the space (or time) to do it justice. Haven’t welded for tens and tens of years so my learning curve will be steep.
I also tend to use rough cut stock rather than sheet goods - again no reason, I just like it. However - I do have a desk commission coming up soon - I think on that the frame will be laminated sheet goods, but solid top.
Would love to see some of your work, when you work out how to upload it.
Cheers
Andy
And yes it will be posted, high level overview pre and post build on you tube - detailed build on the web site.
Cheers
Andy
I think all the points you make are valid, but with respect none of them are new or have not been raised by others in the past. Will be interesting to see what your design is like.
Hi, thank you for the feedback.
Wasn’t going for originality in this one, just wanted to share my experience in my situation.
Cheers
Andy
Hi Andy, great video and a new subscriber. Looking forward to all that is coming.
Thank you for the feedback.
I am realy curious i wish you would build a solid work table with a leg clamp,mft table with all of the bits you learn & love about it especially the tilt cross cut feature with a dog fence bits... i know you can desinged something like that so you could have more stream line work flow without slowing down... i cant wait i am sure you can best of luck i'll pray for you. ...
Hi
And thank you for your comment - strangely I have just designed that very thing - as soon as I can get my hands on some lumber I will starting the build.
Andy
make a workbench on wheels with cabinets underneath. MFT without the legs no wobble and easy to bring forward
I did make a bench in the end to replace them.
Still need to make the cabinet though.
Cheers
Andy
I've just tried signing up to your web site , after being told for the tenth time that the nickname I chose had been taken I gave up !! .will just watch your TH-cam as and when .
Sorry about that, ping me an email with your ideal username and I can set it up for you.
Info@thewoodgrafter.com
All good comments. I have some Festool tools but I think allot of their "systems" are way over priced for what they do. I have purpose built tables in my shop, but for on site work, I have developed a system with metal tech scaffolds which can collapse into a van, but expands to a full portable cabinet shop. (see Malcolm mcgrath "lean construction site part 2" for an earlier version of it.
Hi thank you for getting touch.
I do like the Festool system, but I will be building a shop bench - and as the field work hasn’t materialised in the way I expected it to - I will also be moving away from the system somewhat.
Obviously all this will unfold on the channel over time.
Cheers
Andy
Heads up. You can increase the length of your MFT with the 2m aluminium MFT profile that Festool sell as an option. Cheaper than a second MFT.
Hi Ben,
Thank you for the information, bet it will still wobble though :-)
Andy
The Woodgrafter
Yep this is true it will. Maybe more than before. However Festool being Festool they sell diagonal leg struts for the MFT as another accessory to help reduce that wobble. :)
Ben Hodson
Phew, that’s OK then..
😅
Ben Hodson
Imagine festool solving a design flaw by selling you more extruded aluminium!
Hey did you make a new table then? I don’t see the new one in your videos?
Good day
I'd say you need more floor area to make life easier and more efficient for your plans and business. The Festool Systems appear to be designed for portability and accuracy. Shop equipment needs to be more robust and without any movement under load which should provide the required accuracy.
Good luck with your new ideas
Regards
Ken
Time served Carpenter & Joiner CGLI Adv Craft + much more
Morning,
Yes that’s where my thinking got to, when Inset the business up I expected more field work that would require an MFT, in reality that wasn’t case. So the MFT’s ended up as a fixed workbench - hence the change.
The systainer idea worked well though, giving a nicely organised workshop - but the ability to grab and go to take tools to the job site.
And yes - you can never have enough floor space. In a smaller shop, you are always compromising on space and tool choice.
Cheers
Andy
ok .. where to start ... I'm fairly deep into festool i have kapex , ts55, 1400 EQ , ct26, and 2 mft3 tables , and i'm a full time high end installer . i have to agree the biggest problem with mft is movement . so i got the crossmembers and it did alot to sturdy them up . i think its ridiculous that they dont come with the mft to start. that being said , i notice you dont have them . now in a shop setting the first thing i would do is make a shelf unit to fit underneath the table so it rests on the cross bars with a notch .. and its not rocket science to make sides of the shelf unit so they fit on the inside of the table frame thus stopping any side to side movement and make the table rock solid . you can make this area tool storage for track saw etc .. once again i say they are most effective on jobsites and i would probably make a function designed table for shop use at a lot less $ . I too favor using dogs vs the standard fence but i havent had the need for repetitive cuts other than 90 and 45's . as far as installation tables go .. they rock .. but only with the cross members . i cut a lil off the legs to make them the same height as my table saw so i have infeed/outfeed tables , i have kreg table clamps for fast hold down for scribing fillers and toe kick . i have track guides for my router to make fluted columns and vented toe kicks on site . there is so many uses for the "system" that its worth it to spend the rediculous prices for festool products .. on top of all i can do all these things in a customers home with very little dust getting airborne .. so .. for install or a small shop mft rocks .. otherwise build your own ;)
Now having the value of hindsight, I agree with your last comment - build your own for the shop.
Having said that I have learnt so much. So time to put things right.
Love your set up by the way, sounds good.
Cheers
Andy
See Dash-Board PWS, the new alternative to Festool MFT tables.
Thanks useful video
Thank you
We all know these issues . What was your solution to these issues ? Maybe a shelf above the work area on that batten already there for tools ? , a bespoke cnc mft top on a sturdy built bench to the wall with an under shelf for tools ???
There is a separate video that reviews the bench I built instead.
Cheers
Andy
Hi, is there a link to your replacement of the MFT? Thx Wilhelm
Hi,
That build is going on over on the web site - there will be a shortened version on TH-cam when completed. www.thewoodgrafter.com
Cheers
Andy
Heh Andy can you direct me to the new solution you have produced to replace the MFTs, please? I can't seem to find a video for it on your site. Cheers mate.
Hi David,
This video shows the new workbench build th-cam.com/video/LeWQU9xqPSo/w-d-xo.html
Cheers
Andy
Finally, in a short time, I will have a small laboratory (only 18 square meters) and, therefore, I am also thinking of more stable solutions than the MFT bench that has served me very well so far. Have you considered the classic wooden carpenter banknote? with holes for dogs, two vices etc. I did it but I fear it is too specialized and limiting
What do you think about it?
Hi,
I do have a classic hand tool bench I built many years ago, based on a rubo (not split top).
The problem is I have no room to use that and the MFTs. Now I did think about putting a grid of 20mm holes in that - but as it is solid wood I have feeling the accuracy of the grid will drift.
I think I have solved it - but let’s see :-)
Andy
52fabpre
I recently made a 2.7 metre long work bench.
I had some left over steel and then bought some more to finish the carcass.
I have made stands using 30mm shs square hollow section 2mm wall thickness and bought flat bars. Drilled holes in the middle and then putting 2 together like a cross piece joining two foursides stands together.
The workbench I built I used 50mm square hollow section 2.5 mm thick.
I think I will weld four sides of 50mm this will be very rigid even if you put flat bars to tie both ends using wing nuts so the whole setup doesn't move. Since building my latest work Bench there is no movement with the wider steel.
Esplorando sul web ho trovato i progetti di banchi di lavoro di Ron Paulk.
stores.modularmarket.com/paulk_homes/paulk-workbench-ii-p1.php
I am looking to build MFT style bench - looking at the Paulk benches - and wondering what you have decided to do - have you posted anything yet?
Hi,
I touched on the design in the last VLOG, modified it since then. But you can see the basics.
I will be starting the series over on the web site in the near future.
Cheers
Andy
I bet you build something similar to the bench I built myself? Looking forward to seeing it👍👍
Time will tell,
I don’t think anybody will have built what’s in my mind. It will be interesting to compare.
Cheers
Andy
Just fold up the legs of the MFT and build a low bench on casters to put them on. Look on you tube - plenty of solutions
Yes that idea makes sense, but I want to build something that others can learn from.
Thank you getting in touch.
Andy
Well I didn’t see that coming!
Thanks once again. Great stuff.
Just started to assess my work space. Like you, I basically have an oversized car space. I want to put all my tools on casters.
I do want to keep my mft however. To overcome the stability issue, I’m going to fold the legs in and sit it on its purpose built stump legs on a bench on wheels. (yet to be built). To maintain the correct height the bench will need to be shorter, but I figure that would be ideal as an assembly table. I have bought wheels that work when raised, (pedal lever) but otherwise the bench sits on its own legs. This way the table can be solid, and also accommodate for stuff to be stored better underneath.
For years I’ve used a timber caddy I built, that slides on/off the rail of the mft to the right side by t bolts. I can cut, then place the tool on it in one motion, freeing me up to address the work.
I also have a swing arm that I built from Dan Patterson’s plans (adapted) that attaches in the same way to take care of the vac hose and cable. This is particularly good when sanding.
Hi Howard, hope all is well.
If I was only refitting the shop for me I would also do what you are suggesting.
But I want to build something that not only works for my workflow and style - but also that others can learn from.
Yes the castor idea is good and I will incorporate that on some of the modules (oh yes more than a bench build).
Talk soon,
Andy
the bench built are you going to turn that into a how to in Fusion 360 for Woodworkers?
the stability of the workbenches and the rail is indeed poor, I was planning to buy this one, but now I'm going to make a workbench myself with indeed enough space to store material away and good clamps to fix workpieces!
then I can count on your expertise in the construction of the workbench in terms of connections and the choice of materials ;-)
I am happy that I found your lessons, and during this Coivid19 period I have more time to learn something new!
I am now retired, and I am not a woodworker but very handy, and I like to work with real wood instead of chipboard
Hi,
I don’t currently have a plan to do that, but perhaps if there is enough demand.
The bench build is however live over on the website www.the woodgrafter.com
Cheers
Andy
I finally got to upload a video just for you.
I'm pleased with the strength of the bench and still in the process of adding draws and buying soft close draw runners.
I may make another work table using 50mm square hollow section. They stay so right rigid. If you make them a certain size you can put clamps to assemble draws. I don't use nails I use stainless steel screws.
Yes, I have been lazy I should get back and make dovetails.
th-cam.com/video/mnb5GWsICqs/w-d-xo.html
Here is the link to the work bench I made and
Still working on. Cheers.
Hi Ron,
Had a look at the video, thanks for sharing. That is one sturdy bench you are building.
Cheers
Andy
The Woodgrafter
Thanks Andy. Perhaps the draw runner bar had added to sturdiness.
I will certainly use the larger square section to build work benches and tables. I know it's over engineered. I think too many things are under engineered.
Cheers.
Hi Andy
I was very confused why after having your MFT’s for some time now and have found the back and forth movement a huge source of frustration, why it is that you’ve never taken advantage of the 2 leg braces available. They eliminate the tables movement by at least 90%. Festool charge quite a lot for their leg braces, so I made my own out of 22mm copper pipe and sprayed them grey. They are perfect and as I mentioned virtually totally eliminate any unwanted movement.
I did discuss this mod with you shortly after you first started your channel, hence being a little confused that on one hand you rightly mention there is too much movement for certain tasks, yet an easy solution was there to transform the table but you decided not upgrade your tables?
I totally understand why you feel the need for a different setup now that you’ve had a fair amount of time in such a small workshop however. Will you still incorporate your LS Positioner ? This video wasn’t particularly long and mainly discussed how best to better utilise your space, however again I’m really surprised you wanting to let your Kapex go? I remember your first review on it and how highly you rated it, has that view changed now and if so what mitre saw will you replace it with? I agree the stand and extensions could be sturdier but I find then okay on site provided they’re set up properly. However when I use it in my workshop I use it on a solid bench. Underneath the Kapex are 4 rubber feet and all I did was to accurately drill 4 corresponding holes in my fixed bench and the Kapex drops straight in. That makes the Kapex extremely stable. I also drilled another 4 hole in my bench to match the 4 holes in the Kapex supports so that I could quickly bolt it to the bench in order to make it bomb proof stable. But honestly that was a waste of time because the Kapex sits so firmly when it’s rubber feet drop into the bench holes that I’ve never needed to bolt it down.
Hi, yes I remember your earlier comments and suggestions. In the end I bought the second MFT and that got me by.
For clarity, I am not selling any of my tools - it’s only the tables I am changing. And yes the Incra is staying, in fact when I build the new table for the router, it will still take the CMS modules but give me more bench space and will also include the Incra cross cut sled and mitre.
Agree the stands are OK, but I don’t compromise on quality and need my tools to perform without compromise as well.
It will all make sense when the shop upgrade starts to come together.
Cheers
Andy
The Woodgrafter
I fully understand where your coming from. I use my MFT out on site a fair bit as well as the workshop, so I need something that will suit both needs. The leg braces totally transform the MFT making it very rigid. It’s disappointing that Festool hasn’t incorporated leg braces into the MFT especially considering the very high price point, but even if they priced it at a more realistic price of say £350, the leg braces should still be included as part of the table. I agree with you that any table/work bench with that much movement is all but useless. As much as I enjoy using my Festool gear, when other trades mention the extremely high purchase price, I’m unable to properly justify their kit at those costs when there are some basic design flaws.
I think as much as the MFT is very useful especially when used mobile, it is shameful especially given the ethos they give out, that the MFT is not particularly adequate to perform accurate work which is what Festool is meant to be all about.
As you may remember I also have the Kapex 120 which I purchased along with the wheeled stand and out rigger supports with extendable ends. However this setup is again extremely costly but I feel also has design floors. The out riggers [for want of a better word] have only a single leg each end. Although they will hold light stock reasonably okay, if you put a 3.6m length of 95x45 on there the single legged stands suddenly become wobbly. Compared to my 20 year Dewalt 305mm double bevel mitre saw and stand, there is no comparison with the rock solid sturdiness of the 4 legged stand. I’ve actually used the Dewalt stand as a trestle to stand on, not that I recommend it, but it’s so stable I think you could put a 250k weight on it and it wouldn’t budge. The same setup at today’s price is about a third the cost of the festool equivalent. Don’t get me wrong I knew Festool stuff was expensive before purchasing but until you use the Kapex stand and MFT you don’t really have any concept of how inadequate some of their kit is, which for the cost should out shine everything on the market with perhaps the exception of Maifel.
Hi .
Why don’t you fold the legs up on your table and make something under the bench you can fix the table solidly to it .
I went the other way made a bench myself and the MFT is far more accurate, look at peter Millard he has done that.
I personally think you will regret it if you get rid of your Festool equipment. The best of luck either way.
Hi Stuart,
Agree, if I where just solving the problem for me then this would be the solution I would go for, but I want to show how to build a low cost modern workbench as part of the online school. Hence going back to the drawing board.
Cheers
Andy
The Woodgrafter Hi Andy
Did you manage to build your own Table as I am in the middle of doing mine and was just curious...??
John
Hi, I see you have problems with the MFT stability. Have you tried the "Cross brace MFT 3-QT" from Festool?.
Hi,
Not so much as a problem as an observation, the cross brace is an additional expense on an already expensive table. There are now new and better options than the MFT - that have fixed the stability problem for a lot less investment.
People have reported using the cross braces - and whilst it improves things - the 'wobble' is still there.
HOWEVER - we need to remember it is designed to be a portable bench, and not a static woodworking bench. So my overarching point is that my needs have changed - so my bench will be changing as well.
Cheers
Andy
@@TheWoodgrafter What new and better options?.... :)
Is it seriously that delicate that moving it around the shop will knock the accuracy out? By how much?
Have you replaced them yet? Just curious why you don't fold the legs up and build a solid base for the MFTs to sit on? That way they wouldn't move around as much and you could build a section at the back to rest your tools on and to stop stuff from falling on the floor.
Hi,
The build is ongoing over on the web site, will be talking more about it on the channel in the next few weeks.
I did think about a base that took the tables folded up, but in the end I wanted to show a low cost build for the online school - that could be built for under the price of a single MFT.
I also wanted to eliminate the inherent bounce you get with MDF, when using hand tools. But want to retain the awesome functionality of the MFT.
Cheers
Andy
@@TheWoodgrafter after I posted my question I had a look at your website and saw the design for the bench. Looks very cool.. looking forward to seeing some videos on here about it :)
Hi,
Cheers, it is coming along pretty well, today in the shop I’ll get the frame glued up an it will be standing on its own two feet. Next week the MDF inserts will be in the top and then it will be revealed to the TH-cam world.
Of course those over on the web site see the progress week on week as part of the workbench course.
Cheers
Andy
Totally agree with your assessment. But missed one important additional issue. I own three MFT’s and found the MDF board to sag over some time. So much for a reference surface (not). I, as you, plan to sell them in about 6 to 9 months.
Hi Roger,
Thank you for the feedback. Other people have told me about the ‘sag’ I haven’t found that yet - but I could see it happening - after all it is only 18mm MDF.
I am contemplating a solid wooden laminated top with a series of dog holes for Benchdog system.
But still thinking that through.
Cheers
Andy
When are we going to see your solution?
Hi Neil,
The course is running over on the web site.
Cheers
Andy
I find myself priced out of the entire Festool ecosystem.
In my area I never see contractors using their stuff.
Obviously it works for someone because they keep making it.
The MFT set up seems to me someone at Festool saw a welding fixture table and said "Let's make this out of wood and claim we invented it."
There has got to be someone (bird house builders, artists, ???) that the Festool Extended universe works great for.
Just not me.
Yes it’s not a cheap option.
I buy it as part of my business and I do genuinely gain advantage through productivity, accuracy and reliability.
It’s not the only game in town by any stretch.
But I take your point.
Cheers
Andy
@@TheWoodgrafter Glad their stuff works for you.
Take a look at Peter Millards solution, he recognized some 10 years ago that if you don't need the probability, but he stuck with the system.
Hi, thank you for the comment.
I actually like the long run of benches in Peter’s shop.
I have been catching up on the back catalogue of the ‘measuring up podcast’ in one of the recent (ish) episodes Peter discusses his shop and how he is thinking of changing it up a bit.
Allowing for both videos and production. Interesting stuff.
Andy
wish you'd stand still making me feel nauseous 🤢 ,
the mft3 is really a site work bench, the legs are adequate but not awesome i enjoy mine and have considered building a large cuboard on casters to put the bench on without the leg as id love to utilise the space below the bench better. Looking forward to seeing your new build but please could you not do it too well as i am afraid i might get sucked and feel compelled to join in. 👍
never mind ive just relise this video is 2month old, what happened to the new bench build? i check a recent video and you still have the mft3's
Hi Martin,
Got hit by lock down so couldn’t get the wood supply. Time flies when you are having fun, I have now ordered some construction lumber (1 month lead time) so will be starting it soon, this will be a web site course though - so won’t be on TH-cam.
Cheers
Andy
@@TheWoodgrafter crap has lock down been 2 month geeze
@@TheWoodgrafter👍i looking forward to the build.
Just a brief comment your website is not active.
Hi Raymond - I have checked and it all looks OK.
It is difficult to understand the function of an MFT table unless they are made to support the products because even a 250 lb workbench is still not a heavy workbench but only a light heavyweight, especially for hand tools.
Actually if you had one piece of MDF that connected both tables with the same dog hole spacing than you could combine the table tops.
Hi,
Not sure what you are getting at.
The MFT’s are designed to be accurate, portable and used in light applications - but to be fair they do take a lot of weight.
But that portability comes at the cost of stability.
Cheers
Andy
Yes that would work, Since the MFT was originally designed - there are many other solutions in the market, plus a lot of self build designs.
Cheers
Andy
@@TheWoodgrafter If you connected/unified those two MFT tables with a single top that fit over the dog holes of both tables than you could also make the top longer on the side where you have the gap against the wall. You might even be able to secure this super large top against the wall too.
Yes you could do that, In the end I built a new bench. You will see it in later video.
Cheers
Andy
All these shortcomings are well known. A more interesting blog would be your proposed solution!
There is a video that walks you through the bench I replaced them with.
Not every one knows the limitations so information is always worth sharing.
Cheers
Andy
Here is the original Flex Bench. They give a lot more detail. th-cam.com/video/XBCO1ut_8Ro/w-d-xo.html
How much you want for them fella
Not sure, was going to put them on eBay. Well one of them anyway - complete with the accessory pack.
Will keep one for field work. Where are you based ?
Andy
Essex
Would you be selling the Mft tables soon? If so how much. Also shipping to 01020 US
Hi Timothy,
Yes but not in the near future, need to build the new bench first.
I haven’t looked into the price of these yet - but I would imagine that shipping from the UK to the US would be expensive.
Cheers
Andy
The Woodgrafter agreed on the shipping. Thanks for responding. Just joined the channel so can’t wait to see it
The MFT is a total ripoff imo.
Talking of ripoffs of a different kind Fastcap's ripoff of Ron Paulk's Paulk bench is actually very, very good.
Looking forward to seeing the new bench 👍
Hi and thank you for your comment.
The MFT is good at what it does - ann in its day broke new ground, however there is just to much on the market to continue to make it the de-facto choice.
New design coming soon.
Andy
Ummm yeah they partnered with Ron Paulk soooooo..... way to know from whence you speak.
aaron sailer
Thanks for the input, I assume that was the Fastcap partnership. I didn’t know that.
I like Ron’s design - if it was pure power tools and portability I’m my workflow - then that would be my choice.
However, really want those hand tools back in the workflow.
Andy
Did I catch that right? Does your ts55 go in your router table? I made a plate for mine so I can switch from router table to table saw, I’m America the government has prevented us that luxury
Hi yes, in Europe we had the Festool CMS system. This would take a number of inserts. The router, the track saw, the jigsaw and the belt sander (I think).
It was a good potable solution I used it for many years in the shop until I built the new bench (after I sold the MFT’s).
Sadly is has been discontinued now, they come up in eBay now and then.
Cheers
Andy
These tables are good, but insanely overpriced imo. $600 for the mft/3 Basic. Want stability, that'll cost you another $86 for the cross members; ridiculous. I know its Festool but still. And to think a price hike is coming in April.
They are great tables, and they probably re-invented what accuracy in a small table should be.
However - competitors, Parf system and low cost CNC solutions must have cut into the market - so a price hike is an interesting strategy.
Cheers
Andy
Hi Andy, I too have been pondering a bench AND storage type system for a one car garage and then I found the following th-cam.com/video/jR__Uj7vopI/w-d-xo.html The system is a solid base for a bench, has storage underneath for drawers and/or cupboards but best of all it is modular, so it can be adapted for personal requirements. It's definitely worth having a look. As always I appreciate the time, effort and thought which has gone into your video production
Thank you for the link,
Yes that looks good, sort of similar but with a heavier frame to reduce ‘bounce’.
Thank you for the feedback as well.
Talk soon.
Andy
MFT/3 Worst purchase I ever made. Really it the worst. Like you I sold it and made my own. Portability is a sad selling point.
You don't have to get carried away with it. A good workbench needs:
1> Perfectly flat surface.
2> Perfectly square corners.
3> No exposed metal fixtures which you might catch with a wood blade.
4> Enough surface to be able to support the whole of your work piece.
5> A method to secure a work piece. (Vice)
6> A method to hold thin work for operation like planing, cutting or chisel work. (dogs)
7> A sturdy stand which can handle weight, does not move & can be hammered on.
8> An ability to allow you to apply secure clamps in as many ways as possible.
9> A common work surface height with EVERY other surface in your shop.
You have nailed it, I would add a place to put my tools mid workflow and the ability to facilitate fast accurate repeatable cuts.
I am going to use this list to set my design requirements in the concept video.
Cheers
Andy
Ill buy your Router table CMS off you.
Jimmy Joiner
Thanks Jimmy,
The CMS will be on the market, but the bad news is I will be keeping the modules - I am going to see if I can set them into the top of one of the workbench modules.
But if you are interested in a 240v CMS, with VR extension and sliding table. Then drop me an email andrew@thewoodgrafter.com
Cheers
Andy
Why would you want a portable worbench in a stationary setup in the first place?
Hi, now that is a very good question.
When I set up the shop, I expected to be doing much more site based work than I actually do. So wanted that portability between shop and site.
Experience now tells me that was probably not my best idea ever.
Cheers
Andy
two words.peter millard.
OK ?????
he has a very similar situation with small workshop,but he seems to have got the best out of the festool system.shame to sell them and lose money.might get some ideas from him.cheers.
Ahh got it, he has his as part of a run of benches - so probably wouldn’t have the same issue. From memory he also uses it in the folded configuration on a stand. He does different work than I do - I.E. doesn’t have the hand tool issue.
I know he is looking at his set up and discussing a re-design so will see what that brings.
Cheers
Andy
You need to get to the title in 7 seconds or less and front load your videos if you want people to watch. Having a 75 second introduction is complete nonsense and discouraged by anybody and everybody with huge followings (think Mr. Beasts), which is what I think you are trying to reach eventually. The average youtuber will watch a video for 7 seconds and if you don't get to the title...they will click off. You have an introduction 10x that long. Maybe harsh but I'm actually trying to help you...otherwise I would have just clicked off the video and wrote nothing. Best of luck.
You are totally wrong! The MFT is not designed for hand tools,it is for power tools only!
Did you watch the video? I pointed that out, one of the reasons I was selling it :-)