Therapist Reacts to DUNE
ฝัง
- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 7 ก.ค. 2022
- What happens when you try to control your child's path in life?
Licensed therapist Jonathan Decker and filmmaker Alan Seawright take a look at Denis Villeneuve's adaptation of Dune and contrast Duke Leto's and Lady Jessica's approaches to parenting. Paul Atreides has some complicated relationships with his parents, dealing with intense expectations from his parents, control, some moments of positive and negative parenting, and a whole lot of sand. We talk about the importance of honoring your child's free will, how much we love Oscar Isaac, and geek out a bit about this sci-fi classic.
Watch a behind the scenes sneak peek of Moonstruck (Alan and Jono's short film): • Sneak Peek: Moonstruck...
Support us!
Patreon: / cinematherapy
Merch: store.dftba.com/collections/c...
Internet Dads Popcorn: ctpopcorn.com
Cinema Therapy is:
Written by: Megan Seawright, Jonathan Decker, and Alan Seawright
Produced by: Jonathan Decker, Megan Seawright, and Alan Seawright
Edited by: Trevor Horton, tzhediting.com
Director of Photography: Bradley Olsen
English Transcription by: Anna Preis
Connect with us!
Website: www.thecinematherapy.com
Discord: / discord
Instagram: / therapy_cinema
TikTok: / therapy_cinema
Twitter: / therapy_cinema
Facebook: / therapycinema - ภาพยนตร์และแอนิเมชัน
Get Surfshark VPN at Surfshark.deals/CINEMATHERAPY and enter promo code CINEMATHERAPY for 83% off and 3 extra months for FREE!
It isn’t a movie, but can you react to “The Owl House” there are SO many characters that need therapy, there’s Eda, Luz, Amity, Willow, Gus, Lilith, King, The Golden Guard, and Emperor Bellos. Each of these characters is so unique and complex, please watch this show
Please react to the relationship in Footloose
Where the heck does your editor get this movie clips that put as memes 😂😂
Duke Leto Atreides, stoicly warming up: "I need you by my side."
Paul Atreides, slightly confused but cool: "What danger? The Fremen...? Desert...?"
Duke Leto, immediatly punctuating with a slightly stern tone in his manners: " _Political_ danger."
Alan Seawright, watching the scene: "Kind of authoritarian, maybe not great fathering 🤨."
Kind of authoritarian? In Africa, this would be the hippie reiteration of a classical African upbringing. I've seen, hearx and gone myself through *far* more radical cases. 😅
can you please do Dear Evan Hansen!!!?
The scene with Leto and Paul at the very beginning instantly allowed me to understand that Leto loves his son and respects his son so much more than words can ever define. That line of "you will be what you were always meant to be, my son" hits me so hard everytime I hear it. It is THE most important line in the movie imo.
Denis did Leto so right in his adaptation. Previous adaptation and the book doesn't really give Duke Leto a proper characterisation. He's a political device first and foremost. But in this movie we see both a seasoned politician hiding his emotion but still being able to express and show in opportune time. He may still use peoples for political reason, but we see him first and foremost as a decent man and I love it. Oscar Isaac is perfect in that role.
I went expecting space shit
15 min in, I'm reminded of my daddy issues HARD
As a person who is estranged from their same-sex parent due to a failure to meet that parent's expectations...
Yeah that scene broke me, in a good way
@@TheMajorStranger leto really needed that scene and loving portrail, with how much loyality he inspired that even thausands of years later he still has importance, they needed to ground that loyality in something relatable and they nailed it! I would walk through fire for such a guy
Omf thank you for telling me the names in reference tot hese father and son. Ahhaha i was reading the comments thinking there is a jared Leto in this somewhere lol ahhahahha
I think Jessica in the books comes off as a much better mother. She was ordered by the Bene Gesserit to have a daughter with Leto so that that child could be bred with Baron Harkonnen (EDIT: Oops! The daughter was to be bred to Feyd-Rautha Harkonnen, the Baron's nephew. Thanks Tachikoma1972 for the correction!) and make the Qwitsatz Haderach. She defies the Bene Gesserit and has a son, because of her love for Leto. That's why the Reverend Mother tests Paul; if he had failed the test, he would have been killed, because the Bene Gesserit's secret goal is to breed the Qwitsatz Haderach, and they will not allow someone who is almost the QH but isn't to contaminate their breeding program. Jessica trains him in the voice and teaches him the Litany Against Fear to save his life when he must face that trial, and to protect him against danger. There's nothing she can do to avoid Paul being tested, because the Bene Gesserit are too powerful in the galaxy. It seems to me that once she decides to give Leto a son, she's no longer supporting the Bene Gesserit goal, she's all-in on her love for Leto and Paul, but she cannot declare that openly. So, when I see the scene where Leto says he's asking the Bene Gesserit, he's wounding Jessica deeply, because of what she's given up for Leto's sake.
He was to be breed to Feud Rautha Harkonnen, not the Baron.
I highly agree and I'd take it even further by saying Jessica is a better character in general in the books vs the new movie. She was so much more complex, thoughtful, and powerful in the books. The movie made her seem very flat to me.
@@breannap8585 Honestly, it's not just Jessica although she was butchered the most. However, Paul, Chani, Leto, even the Baron were also portrayed differently than in the books, and it kinda twists the story into something else. (Ironically, gender-bent Liet Kynnes is almost closest to his/her book portrayal.)
The new Dune was visually stunning, but that's about the one good thing I can really say about it - and even the visuals don't necessarily feel faithful to the books. For example, Caladan is supposed to be this amazing, beautiful planet full of oceans (we know how deeply Jessica and the whole Atreides family loves it) - and I just never got that feeling of beauty when watching the movie (maybe if was the "depressing, grey-ish filter" that they used on everything). It's sad, because it feels like they weren't that far off from "getting it right" - and yet that almost makes it more abrasive when things are "off".
Exactly, the moment she decided to follow her love for Leto and give him a son is the moment this path and training for Paul was set. The only other option is going renegade, and leaving behind the empire and the life Leto wants. She knows this, and that's why she trains Paul, that's why she needs him to be The Qwitsatz Haderach : Paul will die if he isn't. So it's not just a matter of Jessica being a soccer mom who has this grand plan for her child, it's a matter of life and death.
Honestly in both she still doesn't look the best. I love Jessica but her loyalties.... 🤔😰
You joked about “use the Force”…but in fact the Jedi were partly inspired by the Bene Gesserit, and the Jedi Mind Trick was a direct lift from the Voice used by the Bene Gesserit. It’s well known that Lucas was heavily influenced by Dune when he created Star Wars.
I think the mysticism in Star Wars makes Star Wars suck. Never been a fan. Lucas peaked with THX1138.
So he took the cool parts and gave it to male-only protagonists ?
Dune is on another level. Star Wars never gets close to this level. It's Space Cowboys with a little cod-Shinto-Zen Spirituality as the Deus Ex Machina. And whilst Dune isn't beyond that, the complexities are far more interesting.
@@cspahn3221 I love Star Trek, tho! Both series, Kirk and Picard.
@@Crouteceleste yup its sad
12:40 "The owner of the child is the child, as an adult, you are raising them to hand them back to themselves" Weird and extremely accurate, as Alan concludes :D
Literally paused and clapped when I heard that. Damn I love ya Johno
I can't believe Alan was capable of not crying in an episode
(this is a joke, your vulnerability and healthy masculinity inspire me)
The main reason why I don’t binge watch these guys is because I cry when Alan cries. Every damn time lol
@@ratgirl34 Yep, there is a not insignificant dehydration risk with binging this channel for me as well
Hell yeah, Alan is a great male role model! Men have feelings, so let's normalize expressing and discussing them. One of the most dangerous and destructive lies of patriarchy is telling men they can't express "weaker" emotions like sadness, grief, or fear.
Both of them exhibit amazing masculinity--let's hear it for the boys! 👏👏👏
@@The_Serpent_of_Eden For definite! I had a messy breakup earlier this year, and watching this channel made me not hate all men. (Low bar?)
@@sarahwatts7152 Nah, I'm there with you, sister. I didn't realize how badly I needed a positive male influence in my life until I started watching this channel.
[Spoilers Ahead!]
One interesting thing about Jessica is that the Bene Gesserit told her NOT to have a son with Leto. She had one, because she loved Leto. The Bene Gesserit plan was for Paul not to exist. Part of Dune's excellence is the recurring theme of expectations, control, and losing control.
Paul's ultimate conflict is this: "Can I control my destiny? Can I do what I want, or am I bound by fate?" He is tortured by this throughout the books.
Paul wanted to be the best man he could and live up to his father's legacy, and kinda got it, but wound up being controlled by fate.
The emperor wanted two houses destroyed, and got it, but lost an empire.
The Bene Gesserit wanted a Kwisatch Hadderach, and got it, but lost control of their super-mind-machine.
Lady Jessica wanted a son, and got him, but had to watch her son lose himself into the future he felt bound to.
The Fremen wanted a Messiah, and got it, but also got a galaxy-wide holy war.
The Harkonnens wanted the Atreides destroyed, and kinda got it, but also lost -everything-.
So many layers!
Be careful what you ask for.
This is honestly very buddhist...
That's the problem with the whole "wheels within wheels" trope. What comes around goes around, and if you're not careful, the stone you throw will circle around and bean you in the back of the head.
Absolutely.
In my opinion the biggest flaw in the movie is they present Jessica as wanting to create the Kwisatz Haderach. She just wanted to give Leto a son. Just as Paul later sacrifices nearly everything for a few more moments with Chani. Love becomes the crux upon which all the planning fails.
What really stood out for me in the tent scene is that Paul lashes out at his mother, but she knows enough that he still needs to be comforted by her. They continue to trust and protect each other after that scene. Children often need their parents to comfort, even when they are mad at them. It's important that they be available to the children, instead of pulling away.
Yes I found that part very touching. She sees his anger, and she is hurt by it, and he is angry and hurt and knows he hurt her too. They very quickly put aside the anger and comfort each other.
What I like about Dune compared to other fantasy and sci-fi series is that parents play an active role in the protagonist's journey, they're not just killed off for sympathy points, or an obstacle, or someone that's just there in the beginning. I think this is something people should try to do more in storytelling.
I like how technology seems to have developed along an 'Analogue' feel, rather than automation and 'smart-device programming'. Sure stuff is near-magical in effect and capability but that's cuz it's 20k years into the future. Technology, buildings, etc. still retains a core feel of that 'on or off' switchflip feel.
@@kinagrillThat's actually a integral part of the lore, it's like that as 10,000 years ago at the start of Dune, there was a war between Humans and machines which saw advanced AI outlawed and deemed heretical, which leads to why Arakis is so important, space travel requires lots of calculations in order to be effective and safe, and without AI, the only way to really do so is by using Spice, and the only planet that still really makes spice is Arakis. Thus, for the Empire to function, or even just many communities, they need Spice, thus, they need Arakis. The rejection of advanced technology leads to a need kind of dependence. Thus, it makes sense why everyone has moved away from digital AI reliant tech, and moreso into more traditional analog style computing.
Y’all should really do Scott Pilgrim Vs The World. Not only is it a masterclass of filmmaking but Scott is also the poster child of unhealthy relationship habits. Could make for a very interesting episode!
100% seconding this
That's why Nega-Scott is such a great guy, because regular Scott is such a pos
100% thirding this, after I report the bot spam
I guess I will fourth this.
I actually did a thesis paper on Scott from the comics. It’s really interesting once you start deep diving into it.
As a fan of the books, I can't help but flinch a little bit about the things you say about Jessica in this. I keep reminding myself that the two of you are limiting yourself to 'as portrayed in this film.' Jessica was supposed to only have daughters. Her choice to have a son out of love for Leto is a HUGE deal in the books and in the Bene Gesserit Order and it is a major influence on how she raises/trains Paul. She wants the Order to see Paul as someone worth protecting because she knows there's a whole spiderweb out there that she can only do so much against, but the Order can do a great deal. That spiderweb is already taking Leto from her, after all, and the Order has chosen not to protect him. That adds some layers to Leto asking if 'the Bene Gesserit' will protect Paul, doesn't it?
For people who haven't read the novels or see other media on it, all they really know (unless they read up on it) is what's shown on screen. Part 2 may give more backstory/explanation about why Jessica has made the choices she's made.
I'm just glad someone mentioned this. It was shown in other adaptations and the books, but not this one explicitly.
If Jessica had not allowed Paul to be tested with the gom jabbar the Bene Gesserit would have killed him. It is implied in the book anyway that no one with his training would be allowed to live if they were not proven to be "human" through the test.
@@eideanbotha8655 yes. This portyral of Lady Jessica has been my least favorite.
@@AnnaTravels This portrayal is crap, and I say that as someone who didn't like the Jessica in the 2000 miniseries (such a whiny voice). Francesca Annis nailed it. Apparently the actress didn't even bother to read the book (seriously, you're hired to play one of the major characters in a book-movie adaptation and you don't bother to read it?).
Interesting thing here in the scene when Leto asks Jessica if she'll protect their son, the bene gesserit theme plays while she toils with her thoughts and when she comes out of her thoughts the Atreides theme overpowers the bene gesserit music. I think that was a pretty powerful cinematic tool to show the audience in a subtle way that Lady Jessica is more about her family than she is about being a bene gesserit.
The Bene Gesserit would refer to Jessica's decision to have a son instead of a daughter, contrary to the Sisterhood's orders, as "Jessica's crime" and use her as an example for centuries to come to all future members the dangers of disobedience. Love is a weakness to be suppressed when contrary to the aims of the Sisterhood.
"It's not the best parenting, letting your child be tortured"
She didn't have a choice. The bene gesserit would have him killed if she refused to let him pass the trial or if he failed. I though the movie did a decent job representing how powerful the bene gesserit is and how Paul taking the trial is the only way to his survival. She trained him so he would live.
Agreed
You can tell how terrified Jessica is the entire time. If someone as powerful as Jessica is scared of something, well, you know it's gotta be bad.
Yeah, a lot of nuance of her character gets lost. The movie only shows the perspective of Paul, which is colored in rebellion and grief, and the horror of his future visions. But a lot of the decisions she made that feel like bad parenting were forced by circumstance.
Calling her the ultimate soccer mom only works if you acknowledge her knowledge that it her son isn't an amazing soccer player, he's going to die young.
@@iriswaters in fact she's like a soccer mom who knows that her son has to win the world cup when he is 18 or him and their whole family will die, she's done her absolute best to prepare him the whole time, so that he can do it himself.
Thank you for your clarification. The authors of the channel should have prepared better if they want to analyze such a complex movie. They clearly haven't done any research and made their conclusions on wrong observations.
Leto caught me off guard several times with just how compassionate he was. Way more depth to almost everything in this movie than I expected. Denis is truly a master at his craft
Yeah, he's my favorite character by far, in the books and even the old adaptation - this movie really added depth to his character, he's caring and wants what's best for his family
William Hurt's Duke Leto was a bit different, but still a very nice father-figure. I liked the grandfather, Duke Paulus, too from the prequel trilogy.
@@peterkiraly1058 William Hurt's portrayal was flaaaaat. You want THE definitive Duke Leto, watch Jurgen Prochnow.
This "if you don't want to be a duke, fine, just be my son" is ridiculous. That's not how royal and aristocratic heirs are raised. It's not like they have a spare (that they know of yet), and in any case women only rule on a handful of planets in the Imperium - and Caladan isn't one of them.
@@Shan_Dalamani he trust that Paul will find his way to it, shows him what he does, and why, rather than straight up telling Paul what to do. The goal of having a good heir is the same, but the road to it is different.
@@TCO_404 The hand-holding, coddling road will get him killed. Paul has to grow up very suddenly, very fast. Sentimental claptrap isn't doing him any favors.
As a French-Canadian that introduction made me laugh a lot. So many people mispronounce his name. This was hilarious, thank you 😂
As a Quebecor of Hispanic origin, that introduction completely confused me. I understood neither the French nor the Spanish. This was another language.
same haha that is the first time someone turned him spanish thought... it was perfect hahahah
Omg that took a few seconds to understand that he meant Dennis Villeneuve not Denis Villanueva 🤣😂 the editing was perfection 😁 at the moment
I'm French and it took me long seconds to realize it was actually a french name X) I was so confused, especially since I can speak spanish a bit
Came here to say the same thing! 🫶🏻
as someone who read the books, I love Allans' slightly sinister smile when he says "the second film is going to be really fun"
All of Jessica's actions and training of Paul is less Tiger mom for Tiger mom's sake and more about if she didn't both of them would've been killed. Jessica was ordered to have only daughters and because she loved Leto disobeyed the orders of the sisterhood. She never really had a choice but to push her son to the most extreme because of the dire consequences of her situation disobeying the sisterhood. I love the tent scene, Jessica's reaction to knowing exactly what she created and how horrible she feels about what she did to her own son. This movie has so many nuanced emotions to it, I love it.
Yes. The thing she did, which was have a son, was out of love for her mate and went against her traditions. She wasn't aiming to have the Kwisatz H., she just wanted to please her mate. She knew he would be facing the gom jabbar test so she prepared him, not expecting or believing he could be the KH, but just so that he would survive it, ... and in case he WAS the KH.
Having a son because she loved Leto was only one of the reasons. She also did it because she wanted to be the one to give birth to the kwisatz haderach. She knew the dangers of what she was doing but did it because of her arrogance.
Whoever is doing the editing now is KILLING IT. Love the silly outtakes, zoom ins, quick cuts, jokes. Very fun, good energy. And of course, always great content from our wonderful Internet Dads. One of my fave channels on YT, it's quality all the way around! Quality content, quality delivery, and great role models. What more can you ask for?
Yes! These recent videos have had such witty and funny editing, it's fantastic :)
Eh, to an extent. I've noticed a lot of videos are starting to become over-edited, to the point where it loses its impact. For example, the name mispronunciation gag went on a bit too long with the repeat-that-zoom-in bit, but the Breakfast Club "where are they now" gag really worked. It's a lot of personal preference though, I get that a lot of people like stuff like this, but it tends to distract/annoy me if it's overdone, esp if it's not really adding too much to the content itself. Like the "this is the weirdest thing I've said" and the WRONG on-screen was nice, quick. funny--the extended cut-back to him screaming Die Hard wasn't....and it wasn't all that weird to me, so the "wrong" lost its initial impact.
I really had to appreciate the subtle eye recolour at 29:13
❤️
@@JazzyNym Eh, I wouldn't say it's a case of over editing, it's just that not all jokes land and that's fine.
I love the point about explaining things to children! My parents always explained their reasoning for everything and sometimes other parents mocked them for it or said that they should instead just make us do things, but it was very helpful in teaching me to understand things, but also in emergencies. I remember sitting in a cafe with my father and he went to the bathroom. When he returned he didn't even stop walking and said "Pick up your bag, we're going." in a stern tone. I knew, because he always explained everything, that he must have a good reason. So I didn't whine or argue, I quickly picked up my bag and walked with him. As we were getting into the car, he explained that some sort of pub fight had broken out in the next room and he wanted to get me out of there before anything escalated. A very helpful way to not only show respect to your children but also keep them safe in emergencies!
Same here. I'm divorced now but when I was married and had stepkids, we explained a lot of reasoning. Eventually it led to the kids trying to counter reason, which leads to why sometimes the explanation must wait for urgency reasons. But ultimately, they grew to understand the difference between compliance and obedience.
@@The_Kiosk it all depends on the kids.
When my son went through the why phase, I always answered him in as much age-appropriate detail as I could (sometimes he didn't want to know and was just trying to be annoying and then things were different). I always respected his feelings and explained to him why I asked him to do necessary things he didn't want to do. He grew up to be respectful, kind, and full of knowledge or how to get it.
Your parents should teach parenting classes.
They would be excellent!!! :::
@@khay_m thanks. Unfortunately they're no longer with us.
I love the way they did the Voice in this version. They so easily could have gone with a deep, masculine voice filter, because in so many minds "masculine = authoritative", but instead they went in a totally opposite direction where the Voice sounds shrewish and haggy, even when it's done by a male. It sounds creepy as hell, and I sure wouldn't defy it!
Agreed! It sounds scary, but not the classic "(male) voice of command". And I don't know why Alan calls Jessica killing those goons a murder, those three would have killed both Jessica and her son. I'm fairly certain that every mother in the the audience would tell you they'd done the same.
@@Julia-lk8jn Yeah, no murder detected. She did what needed doing, and good for her.
@@Julia-lk8jn Justifyied murder
I wish they kept the voice execution at the dinner table, where you can't hear the initial speaking but some kind of aftereffect echo. I was a little disappointed when the voice turned into (well executed) creepy speaking, instead of something that sounds like it's coming from another world with the whole lips moving then the sound being heard.
@@QuilloManar I'm glad they didn't cuz the voice isn't actually some mystical other worldly thing, it's the voice of all of the female ancestors.
Frank Herbert's explanation of The Voice was excellent when he said that it wasnt science fiction and that people manipulate others with tone all the time. He said " Call anyone on the phone and without saying so, give them the impression you are upset with them."
The book had a whole subplot that the film cut out which would have given you so much more to look at, as the whole house suspects Jessica of being a Bene Gesserit agent in league with the Harkonens, but Leto alone refuses to believe it. However, he pretends to be as suspicious as everyone else so that the real traitor will hopefully expose himself, and he leaves Paul with instruction to tell his mother the truth if anything happens to him before he can tell her himself. Thus a wedge forms in their relationship and Leto painfully endures it to protect her until the end. Then in the desert, Paul reveals to Jessica that Leto always trusted her, and this knowledge breaks down Jessica’s walls and she finally allows herself to grieve. It’s the most tender moment of the book and I feel the film is lacking without it.
While that subplot makes great drama, in the end it could safely be cut out of this film adaptation. Though I do hope that there is a reference to the mistrust seeded during that book subplot when they bring Gurney back in in Part II.
This whole part was sooo misqed in the movies, the whole set up, everybody just looking at each other and trying to think who's the spy !
@@blitzgirl6522 It’s not strictly necessary for the bare-bones progression of the plot, but that’s not all that’s important to a good story. I feel it ramped up the tension and made the stakes much more personal to the family, adding so much more emotion and investment to a story many audiences felt detached from in the film, and frankly tied a lot of elements of the story together that in the film feel almost vestigial now.
It's funny because that subplot was actually my least favorite part of the book. So much of that felt like unnecessary drama.
@@TCO_404 And I get that we all appreciate different things in our stories, but I felt it made the story so much more personal and emotional. I’ve heard a lot of criticism for the movie that they didn’t feel anything for the characters, that as big and epic as the story was, there was no emotional investment. This part of the book made the stakes deeply personal to the family and revealed a lot about the characters. It made me care.
Jessica doesn't have a choice when Paul's being tested. She's not being a tiger mom; she's forced to let her son experience his trial. She also *didn't* create the Kwisatz Haderach. She was supposed to create a daughter that would be bred with a Harkonnen who would then be a Kwisatz Haderach that the Bene Geserit could control. She created something different. Paul even says so in the book.
This comment is what I was looking for. It is said explicitly in the Dune novel that Jessica's duty as a Bene Gesserit was to birth daughters, but she forsook that duty for her love of Leto Atreides. I dont think she set out to be the mother of the Kwisatz Haderach.
To paraphrase, "I will never be a mentat......I'm not the Kwizats Haderach, I am something else"
Yes - and she risked her life and Paul’s life by doing so… everything she did after his birth was aimed at keeping him alive. The Bene Gesserit take no prisoners!
There's also the fact that with the Reverend Mother, she's not just Jessica's teacher, but also her actual mother. She basically abused Jessica her entire life and made her fear her completely.
Thank you, I think people give Jessica a bad rap because they don't know the book's context of her
I love that you acknowledge what a complex character Jessica is! She was also bred for a purpose and was raised by the mothers of her order to do exactly what she was told, she was told to give him a girl. He wanted a son. This is clear in the books but the movie kind of puts her in a bad light. She had to go through the pain test too and was traumatized. In the book The Reverend mother makes a statement to Paul that it takes a great deal of strength for her stay behind that door..
I think it's mentioned in the books that Paul essentially had four fathers; Gurney Halleck, Thufir Hawatt and Duncan Idaho, in addition to Leto. One of the things that makes the Atreides so strong is that they are one big family.
That line Leto said to Paul at the graveyard made me cried hard. As an Asian with traditional parents, I will never hear them say "you will be what you'll always meant to be, my son."
I have a British stoic as a father. If I want the affection I need, I go to other men. I acknowledge you, Brother.
Sorry to say this to you guys but your fathers sound like arseholes, who chosed self-image and ego over love for their child. Even if they were stepfathers that would still be no excuse.
It's bogus Hallmark BS that sticks out like crazy when shoe-horned into this brooding, dystopian hellscape of a novel!
@@marthademovimaus5140 Perhaps I was simply mentally fixing the incongruity, but I took it as him doing exactly what he was trained as an Atreides to do, play the part of the great heroic leader which says exactly what your audience needs to hear. I don't see how these words should be any different to every other carefully calculated word and gesture to inspire loyalty and confidence in his men he does with every waking breath.
@@marthademovimaus5140 Hmm ... brooding, yes. Hellscape ... we read different books.
"you're going to have to be the one to say I love you. I will always love you, and I will always hear your counsel and consider it, but now I am an adult and I'm going to make my own decisions. And some of those decisions you wouldn't make, but this is my life." Jonothan Decker. Thank you I needed this.
You're welcome. :)
Amen. That really is the biggest signifier of fully making the transition, mentally, from childhood and adolescence to adulthood
That scene where Paul uses the voice on his mother scares me every time even when I know it's coming. The incredible sound design, acting, and writing make it a harrowing scene to witness. You never want something so bad to happen, and watching this scene almost gives me the feeling of watching the worst timeline play out.
I see a community fan as well
I see a community fan as well
You guys literally became my comfort channel. This is candy for my brain, there's incredibly good and healing psychological analysis, there is cinematography, there is art, there is kindness and compassion, there is humour. I seriously can't believe I am watching this for free. Please as long as you enjoy doing these, don't stop, because your show is an absolute gem.
Lol I so feel this but I think its better for our brains than candy . . . maybe like a really good-tasting smoothy that also has dark leafy greens in it?
Or maybe like those sweet vitamins that are basically candy but kind of good for you?
For me, the [pitch part] played out differently.
At first she said "no, you're not ready"
After realizing he was committed (and took a hit for it), instead of criticizing him, she reminded him:
"Find the right pitch"
It wasn't condescending, it wasn't patronizing, it was simply "you've got this"
Anyway, I've been really enjoying y'all's content.
Thank you, and keep up the great work!
Agreed. Also, if Paul hadn't found the right pitch they'd both be dead. There's a little more riding on the line than an overbearing mother wanting her child to do something "the right way".
Yes - that situation was life and death and she thought they had one shot at it… she was only focused on keeping them both alive- not his “performance”
They're definitely referring to the part at the end of that clip where she criticizes him after she is freed. A tender or affectionate thing to say would be something like "thank you" "i'm proud of you" or even "I knew you could do it." She says "your pitch was too forced." That kind of criticism after-the fact is not really helpful like her signing "find the right pitch" was.
@@rzl712 This. Also- keep in mind they also try to relate the problems in teh movie to real world scenarios. They KNOW there's more to it than that. But the movie depicts a certain view, and they can only comment on that, and then do their best to relate that to helpful therapeutic advice thats actually applicable to real world :) Fortunately for us, most of us wont have to be in the world of DUNE anytime soon, but we CAN take the lessons from it and apply it to real world problems.
I think an important thing to note is the social dynamics of the Bene Gesserit and how they affect Jessica. Jessica wasn’t actually supposed to have a son. The Bene Gesserit told her to have daughters. Leto wanted a son, and out of profound love, she couldn’t say no. The Kwasatz Haderach thing came later. It’s possible she’s actually using the Kwasatz Haderach hope as a justification for her decision. After all, if he really did become this superhuman being, then her betrayal would actually have been what the Bene Gesserit wanted. Jessica was often criticized by the Bene Gesserit, both during her time and after, for being too emotional. The Bene Gesserit classically viewed emotion (especially love) as a weakness, but as we see several times in the film, Jessica displays emotion pretty frequently. That’s not to say she’s a great mom (her and Paul clash many times and Paul frequently keeps her at arms length out of mistrust), but to her credit, she shows an unprecedented amount of love for Paul against the wishes of her order.
I'm not super-familiar with the Star Wars canon, but I think it's an interesting parallel that both the BG and the Jedi seem to have a strong emphasis on suppressing natural emotion and cutting ties of affection... Makes me wonder if their creators were pulling from similar inspiration, probably Zen Buddhism? It's a problematic approach though IMO as it essentially risks creating a sociopath, someone who feels no empathy.
Even in the book she really does love Paul. And a lot of her emotion is via the internal dialogue, which I think Denis V did a smart choice with having it be shown externally (though important to note that while she goes through these moments, she does master those emotions via her Bene Gesserit training, like she does in the book, so anyone who says Denis V and the writers made her "too emotional" in this adaptation really didn't pay attention to her internal dialogue...).
@@anna_in_aotearoa3166 Star wars was directly inspired by Dune. not solely Dune, there is a huge chunk of Kurosawa movies in there and just Japanese stories in general, multitude of nods to Flash Gordon and a number of other inspiration, but... without Dune, there would be no Star Wars... so that parallel you see? good eye :)
@@anna_in_aotearoa3166 The big difference is that in Star wars, the suppression of emotion by the Jedi is supposedly a "good" thing (at least according to George Lucas); the Jedi order is somebody to emulate. OTOH, in the Dune series, it's pretty clear that the BG sisterhood are not the "good guys" (though nor are they simple villains) - they do some good, and they argue that their actions and their genetic programs are "for the good of mankind", but in reality they're quite power-hungry, obsessed with control and often make morally dubious decisions.
Overall, the Dune series doesn't have "good" and "evil" the way SW do. There are protagonists, and some are clearly more sympathetic, but "good guys" and heroes? I can't think of a single purely "good" character in the entire series (though you could argue there are some "purely bad" people), and part of the appeal is that you're frequently questioning who are you cheering for and why, and if you even should be cheering for anyone in the conflict(s). Like, is Paul's Djihad justified? Is Leto's Golden Path? What about their opposition? Is Jessica justified in testing the twins in the third book? And so many more questions.
SW at its core is a simple story; Dune is anything but.
@@anna_in_aotearoa3166 Star Wars ripped off Dune to the point that Frank Herbert considered suing George Lucas.
Timothy's performance with the pain box was utterly stunning. As someone with constant, serious pain, I felt that his portrayal was perfect.
He seemed like he couldn't handle it 😳
@@ForbiddenFollyFollower It was close. But he pulled through... and emerged a master.
When he starts looking down his nose in defiance of her… EPIC. And even when she says enough he doesn’t take his hand out right away. “Defiance in the eyes, like his father”
In the book, both parents kinda suck as parents. Leto has his own secret education regime for Paul, separate from Jessica's Bene Gesserit plan. A lot of the first half of the book is Paul realising how little of his life has been known to him and then the pressure of his parents is immediately replaced with the pressure of his prophecies. Jessica comes off a little better in the book than Leto just because her secret plan is the product of a lot different pressures external to her, rather than just a desire for dynastic glory, but neither of them really consider the happiness of their child as an end in itself.
I think this interpretation is overlooking a couple of things about the characters and the society they exist in.
Firstly, Paul - at least in the early section of the book - fully believes in his father's glory, and their shared dynastic inheritance of just authority. His father actually undercuts this faith at some points. "My propaganda corp is one of the finest," Leto reminds his son. But Paul has none of the reluctance to take on the mantle of Duke that he does in this film.
Moreover, I don't think the compulsion to maintain dynastic glory is any less a crushing external pressure than Jessica's secret mission. As members of an aristocratic society - and a particularly dangerous one, as the books show us - Duke Leto's displays of bravura are calculated to preserve, not only the authority, but the safety of his family in the delicate balance of powers.
As far as aristocratic parents go, Duke Leto is the father Alexander the Great wished he had. (Which still might not be ideal. My point is that Duke Leto's faults are as much a commentary on the characters' environmental upbringing as Jessica's are.)
@@andrewvanhorne4359 On the issue of Paul and his father, I was mostly referring to Leto's training of Paul as a mentat. It is something he can't tell Paul about but that doesn't change that it is a secret from him.
I agree with the rest. They are all products of their environment, both immediate and historic. And you're right that Leto faces external pressures too. The difference between him and Jessica, for me, is that he has completely submitted to his role as Duke. He is an embodiment of Atreides history and all of the other roles he could be said to have (father, lover, etc.) are joined with that role. His interactions with the world are always the actions of a Duke. There are worse aristocrat fathers from real history. As you mention, Paul and Leto don't have the kind of simmering tension or insecurity that existed between Philip and Alexander and Leto isn't actively violently malicious like Frederick William I was to Frederick the Great. But he is an aristocrat and sees his role as a father as part of that, aristocracy being a family business.
Jessica, on the other hand, never quite submits to any of the roles she is being asked to take because they conflict with each other. She can't be a good Bene Gesserit and a good mother and a good consort all at the same time but failing at one of them completely might be very dangerous, the result is constantly having to balance the interests of the stakeholders in those roles so that one doesn't overwhelm the others. Her interactions with the external pressures she faces seemed to me less settled, more open to changes brought about by shifting pressures.
For me, that produces a slightly more sympathetic character, but it depends very much on what personally inspires sympathy.
It goes of an deeper than that. The book fully explains that Lido came from a father who was very cruel and domineering. Although Leto is more introspective and caring than his father, it is noted several times in the first few chapters that he has that streak of cruelty in him as well. Jessica feared that streak would go to Paul.
Your children can't be happy if they're dead. A lot of Paul's training is about how to protect him from the people who WILL try to kill him. Not training him would be the same as throwing him to the wolves. Book-Leto understands that the only way for Paul to be safe is for him to be powerful. So, he strives to make him as powerful as possible.
Don't forget that a major theme of the books is that even the supposedly powerful are constrained by the world they live in. Even the God Emperor has to work within the lines that are already there.
@@DEGriffSoc Jessica is a concubine, not a consort. She and Leto never married.
It's not that Paul lost his free will, it's that he gains the ability to calculate all possible futures and the path of the Universal Jihad is _the lesser evil_ so he's trapped playing a monstrous role because all alternatives are worse.
Ah, the Dr. Strange route?
Or did Dr. Strange go the Paul route?
Paul tries desperately to avoid the jihad but falls into the “trying to avoid the future and inevitably causing the future” trap. It’s Paul’s son Leto who ends up being the one to have to sort it all out.
@@aliaturner8101 It feels like they're pushing REALLY hard for Dune Messiah as a 3rd movie. I'm curious if they'll actually get it.
@@suddzieq Villeneuve says that it's planned, but that he'll only release it after he feels the actors have physically aged enough -- not the full 12 years, but a much longer wait than between the first two movies.
Just wanted to say that John's analysis of Paul's mother matches the image I have of my own mother, but coming from a therapist with his commentary that it's wrong parenting made me feel so seen.... thank you John
21:32 I wanted to hear this from z therapist so much
You're very welcome
OMG! I'm literally crying now...
Your own views may not be the most objective on the matter regardless of how similar it may seem to you.
This is part of why we see therapists because our own perspective is warped on even the smallest things.
I had difficulty with this version of Dune, and often have difficulties with the whole storyline of Dune in general, because of how it handles the roles of women. For one case in point. If you (Jonathan) were only knowing of the story by what you watched in this film, then maybe that explains why it may have been missed that Jessica was ORDERED to birth a _girl_ to continue the genetic line but CHOSE to have a boy due to the love for Paul's father. Jessica herself was raised as the offspring from a long genetic line with a single purpose; she has very little room to "be a good mother". Knowing this backstory (which I think this version of Dune does not make really clear), puts the whole scene of the pain test and Jessica's reaction to it in a completely different light. She is terrified that her son that she loved so much to birth outside of the directive will be destroyed. And she has little power to protect herself or him in that moment other than to remember the training.
Thanks for explaining that. Helpful for me since I have not read the book.
I never really liked the eugenics and women being able to choose the sex of their child parts of the books.
@@quickredf0x143 That was intentional on Herbert's part. It's supposed to illustrate a hierarchical society where everything is centered around the quest for power and control. Herbert is warning us against such things.
@@Leitis_Fella In hindsight, that makes sense. Currently in the middle of God Emperor.
Why does Jessica bother you as a example of the roles of women? Yes, she's in an unfortunate circumstance due to gender roles, but most of the characters are in unfortunate circumstances because of pre-assigned roles that they cannot break out of. How is Jessica's gender role any different?
"I'm never going to get your approval, and at this point I'm just pissed."
Moments of resonance and assurance that I'm not a horrible person for the emotions I have towards a lot of things like this really bring me back to Cinema Therapy's 30min videos that I honestly don't always have the leisure and peace of mind to watch.
what about the "your approval fills me with shame" stage
Alan: "Sad enough to make me cry but not to make me think."
Also Alan: Has a webseries where he does nothing but think about movies with a therapist.
I hadn't realised that Denis Villeneuve made "Arrival" - as a linguistics nerd I love that movie because it doesn't gloss over how hard it might be to communicate with aliens. Love his "Dune" as well, especially Timothée Chalamet as Paul - looking forward to Part Deux!
same! arrival was actually what inspired me to pursue a degree in linguistics, specifically the scene where she describes the anatomy of a question
Arrival is my FAVORITE movie (fellow linguistics nerd here!), and I love the vibe Denis Villeneuve brought to both movies. Really beautiful and ethereal and evocative. Incredible emotion portrayed by characters in a sparse, restrained way.
6:00 "I did the best I could" That is my parents almost _on the nose._
The day I turned 18 my parents told me, "You're 18 now. You're an adult. Everything we wanted to instill in you should already be there. We'll still always be here for you if you need support, advice, or guidance, but your choices are your own now. We trust you to make good ones."
I love Jonathan's comment about always telling the children what's going on. In other contexts, this willingness to explain things at their level of understanding helps draw the line between innocence and ignorance.
About Lady Jessica
The thing is she needed to birth girls. The Benne Gesserit had this whole plan for centuries to create the Kwizats Haderack and Jessica was born as part of the plan and she needed to birth a girl and this girl will be the mother of the Kwizats Haderack
Duke Leto wanted a son, he wanted an inheritance so Jessica birthed a son but also hoped this son to be the Kwizats Haderack
So Jessica already betrayed her religious.
I actually never thought of Jessica being a bad mom I just thought that this whole society and the Benne Gesserit being toxic…
maybe because I’ve read the book twice and I know what will happen…she’s actually my favorite
Also something that weren’t that showed in the movie
Jessica really suffered as being a Benne Gesserit too, everyone everywhere including Duke Leto didn’t trusted her because she was a Benne Gesserit and also called her a witch. Dunken called her witch in the book and treated her poorly, Hawat blamed her for the assassination attempt, Jessica had a really really bad life in the book
Also Leto had a son who died as a child and Lady Jessica wanted to give him another because of his grief.
"Duke Leto wanted a son" Not only that, he wanted a son with JESSICA. He could have had a son with just about any other woman in the universe, and in fact, the reason he didn't marry Jessica was to keep the idea of him marrying someone else open, for political purposes.
But he only wanted Jessica, no one else.
I was seriously triggered by this whole video because they didn't understand her character at all.
@@harvestmoon_autumnsky I was kinda too, but maybe it’s because my head is so much inside the book and I see a different picture so I forgot what being showed in the movie…I hope in part 2 they will clarify it.
It’s actually happened to me in Harry Potter too…like my head is so stuck in the books I didn’t noticed some changes….like I’ve never noticed that Dobby was only in two movies and didn’t appeared in the other movies😂😅
I think we can consider Jessica a bad mom in regards to Alia, but not with Paul
Ah, feudal nobility.
But at least less depressing by not being actual historical figures who were awful to their own families.
What I love in the “remove her gag” scene is that it’s better than in the book. In the book Jessica part seduces the guards, part uses the Voice, while in the film her Voice is powerful enough to order them.
Book version also had Paul caving in a dudes chest with a kick if I remember correctly.
Jessica didn't create Paul to be the KH. She was only supposed to have only daughters but because of her love for Leto, who wanted a son, she had a son. Her main reason for training him in the BG way was that the rest of the BG would never just ignore him and leave him alone. He would still have prophetic dreams. He would always be a potential KH in their eyes. He is part of their great project after all, even though he isn't what they planned. If he was never trained he would've been killed in that room by a poison needle because he wouldn't have the self control to keep his hand in the box.
I've just started the video and, as a French Canadian, I would just like to say that I got an absolute kick out of that introduction and am currently in tears! Beautiful! This is just so beautiful! A wonderful example on how to correct a cultural mishap with great sensitivity and humor! Thank you both for making me laugh, and for having taken the time to clearly state the director's nationality... Oh, and Jonathan, no worries! I'm not entirely sure if you already knew the director was French Canadian and simply had a hard time using something closer to a French pronunciation; or if you somehow mixed up Villeneuve with Villanueva, while thinking Denis' family name had Spanish origins. Either way, I'm pretty sure I don't personally know the cultural heritage or even nationality of every single movie director out there, and French isn't the easiest language to pronounce for a non native speaker - even in its Canadian form. Thanks for being such a good sport and humble about it. That was adorable, and not offensive in the least!
Same here (& also French Canadian): I had to stop the video as I couldn't stop laughing. I mean, that editing was just... marvellous! And I totally agree with your point, TheLostGirl21.
YAY Dune! Nice analysis, but I think something else needs to be brought up: Even before the emperor called them to take over Arakis, and even outside of Paul's potential as the Kwizats Haderach, the entire family was in constant danger of their lives. The training and expectations that Jessica put on Paul were also heavily motivated by keeping him alive in the dangerous world he inherited, not just in shaping a space messaiah
Also the BG never intended to make a space anything, dune wasn't in their plans at all, their plan was to marry Paul's son (the "real" kwisatz haderach) to princess Irulan but Jessica ruined by having Paul instead of a girl, Paul is not de chosen one but since he is here everyone just got with the program as normal in the hopes of controlling him and save their plans
@@per-c8229 And, even so, it's Paul's children that have the real power later on.
Yes, yes, yes!! This is what I was thinking the whole time they were talking about her parenting style. There maybe a choice for Jessica the way she raised Paul, but instinctually she's raising him out of survival from the love to protect Paul and Leto and also out of fear from the Bene Gesserit knowing what will happen. Like they mention there's many layers and I love Jessica for it.
Jessica never had any idea Paul would turn out to be a messiah at the time she started training him. These are the ridiculous conclusions people come to when they don't do their homework before making YT videos.
@@per-c8229 Paul was never supposed to exist. Jessica's daughter was supposed to marry Feyd-Rautha and their kid was supposed to be the Kwisatz Haderach.
Can we just appreciate Hans Zimmers music through the scenes? My gosh. When I saw this movie in theatres, I knew it would be good because he was the composer. I was blown away
“This isn’t the best parenting, letting your child be tortured” had me in stitches, I love this channel
Minor quibble: while Jessica was (possibly) aware of the Bene Gesserit goal of breeding the Kwisatz Haderach, there was very little to indicate that she wanted to be the woman who gave birth to him. She had actually been ordered to give Duke Leto a daughter (as part of that breeding program), but she disobeyed and had a son out of love for her Duke, because she knew that's what he wanted.
In the book she tells the Revered Mother she sensed the possibility that her son could be the Kwisatz Haderach but mainly she wanted to give her duke a son because he wanted one so badly.
Of course she knew about the BG breeding program. She was part of it.
She knows the consequences for the son once she makes that choice though. The Bene Gesserit won't just let it go. It's definitely out of love for Leto, but still pretty selfish when you consider Paul. I think that's what they tried to point out here.
She broke her cult's conditioning enough to have a son but not enough to refuse the test and tell Leto the BG would kill him if she resisted it. She tried to have it both ways, have a son and prepare him for the BG test.
@@kennethfharkin The Bene Gesserit isn't a cult. And even without the test, BG training is some pretty intense stuff that can save your life. This is expanded on in Children of Dune, when Farad'n (Irulan's nephew, son of Princess Wensicia, who is obsessed with killing the Atreides twins to put her son on the throne and rule through him) requests that Jessica become his personal teacher. So apparently the BG do teach males at times, if asked and they believe that it will also benefit the BG's goals. It wasn't only Paul.
Jessica isn't letting her child be tortured, without the test Paul would be killed and there is nothing she could do about it. All she could do is train him to pass the test which was inevitable from the moment she chose to concieve a boy for Leto.
And when you say she wouldn't have chosen any different what do you mean? That she would rather Paul wasn't born?
I believe that even if she conceived a girl that child would still have to take the test? Correct me if I'm wrong.
@@cantorlok2815 Yes, but the test is meant for women and in any case if Jessica was wrong the girl child would have been the mother of the KH and destined to pass the test.
@@DoddyIshamel I don't think there's "destiny" in the Dune universe
@@cantorlok2815 I am talking about Jessica's belief ....
Dune is set in a world/universe that makes the Hunger Games world look like happy fun times.
Jessica was a realist and wanted Paul to survive.
Jessica HATES that Paul's life sucks, but her other option is to let him die. She had no control over losing Leto, she can't lose them both.
A great line from the book is when paul realizes his mother is his enemy when it comes to his future. He understands she has different goals for him.
Honestly, Jessica supposed to give Leto a daughter, but she saw that he wanted a son so much, so out of love to him she gave him a son (Bene Gesserit can choose the gender of their child). So she ruined Bene Gesserit plan, believing that her son can be Kwisatz Haderach. Jessica was right of course, but still, she is a great rebel character who kinda betrayed Bene Gesserit for love. I adore this books so much 😊
Love that you took on Dune! Usually, I'm in strong agreement with your takes, but I differ on this one. I think this reading doesn't take cultural difference into account (and that's also why I cringed at the newly invented scene where Leto tells Paul, "You do you"). Good points about parenting a person in a modern developed nation, but Paul is (at this time) the *only* heir of a feudal dukedom that probably directly has billions of people's lives depending on it. If he were to abdicate, there's no one to take his place. In the power vacuum that would ensue, the lives of all the people under Atreides protection would be at risk; there would certainly be war. (I know, this happens anyway.) Saying "you do you" in that context is tantamount to saying it's okay if you let those people under your protection die. It's not the same not forcing your kid to play soccer.
Agreed. This is a military aristocracy in an imperialist/conversionary universe. Leto as wonder-dad is a problem narratively; he’s Paul’s general as much as he is his father, and Paul is supposed to be an officer in training. (Except that mom has him tapped for the priesthood, which is not what happens to only sons in an aristocracy…)
@@tinad8561
Feudal Lord not only General
Lol. It's science fiction, and none of us know objectively what a feudal miltaristic society would be like. So, let's stop pretending we would. What is more pertinent is, as a piece of art, is it truthful to us in the here and now? To us little people, who would never be in the halls of power here or there? Stories like Dune only subsist because they are truthful and they are relevant. The window dressing of sci-fi feudalism is a framing device. Really good art can be placed in different historical contexts and still tell the truth. Just look how Shakespeare's works still find traction is varying cultural contexts. They are not hide bound to 16th century Italy, the Roman Empire, nor the wars of succession to the Scottish throne in the 14th century. Their truths are eternal, and and each generation shows that by playing with the context as far as the story allows.
Yeah, excellent point. This family is so far removed from the soccer moms of Utah...
And it's an interesting point to consider: can a feudal lord even BE a good parent?
@@fvefve12
As it is said
the Atreides were conditioned to rule
I really like this analysis! Its been interesting hearing how therapists are seeing this side of Dune. The whole theme of parenting as a stewardship and respecting their agency is honestly something i'm going to remember if i have kids one day :)
But in regards to this particular story, I think it ignores the bigger picture a little, as to give Jessica far more credit as a mother, she is ultimately powerless against the Bene Gesserit, she is terrified of pissing them off and knows defying them is even more dangerous than pissing off the emperor himself, everything she taught Paul was in the name of survival against them, to know their tricks, because he was going to be tested, prepared or not, and if she wanted him to become a messiah, she wouldn't have requested he be evacuated from Arrakis because she knows Arrakis is primed for him to take the helm, it's his choice at the end that sets him on the path. She prepared him, as did the mentats, as did Duncan Idaho, as did his father, but it was the Bene Gesserit that seeded prophecies, it was the emperor who set stage for the war and it was the Harkonnens who waged it. Jessica, Paul and Leto are merely trying to survive it with the material conditions they were given to combat institutions seeking to be that controlling parent, as is the goal of any authoritarian regime I suppose.
The whole reason they weren't happy with Jessica was because Paul couldn't be controlled in the way they wanted, they were hoping for someone more "trainable" in a generation or two that could be bent to their will. There's a reason she said "defiance in the eyes, just like his father" and i adored that touch in the film! :D
The line "And if your answer is no, you'll be the only thing I ever needed you to be. My son" is so heartwarming to me.
I lost my father ten years ago, so hearing this in such a dark movie was cathartic for me.
And thanks for making a video about that movie.
But sadly, that is probably Leto manipulating Paul so that he will grow up to the family's expectations.
I've only read the first book in the series, but Dune absolutely blew my expectations out of the water. I went in thinking it was a standard sci-fi adventure, award-winning or not, but it turned out to be a fascinating deconstruction of the hero myth, as well as a lesson on the bitter unfairness of the passage of history, where the true heroes can end up struggling alone for years and having an ignoble ending. I loved the book but it also emotionally wrecked me.
It’s so good. This is such a good concise explanation of why these books have stood the test of time. They don’t fit into any usual boxes.
read messiah
tgen we discuss the hero part
Jessica had to teach her son that way because she knew that the reverend mother would put him through the test. There was no way for her to avoid this, so she trained him as best as she could to survive this.
Which honestly is still a tad short sighted, even if she did it out of love for Leto. Normal men didn't survive this and if he did survive it... well we see where that leads. She does her best with the cards she's dealt, but it's fair to hold her accountable.
@@TCO_404 For what? Either get a girl that gets married of to the horrible Harkonnen family to be a breeder or to have a boy that has to pass the test? She would be just as accountable in the case of a daughter.
Alan describing his mom is my mom. We share the same pain. Jonathan's empathy but honesty is also how I see my mom.
Also my late mom.
shoutout to the edits and cutaways, they keep getting better and better 😂
Our editors are the best!
I'm wondering if you'd do a follow-up of the movies you reacted, like A Quiet Place part 2 or later in the next years, Dune part two. That'll be pretty cool to see how the characters grow mentally
I can’t wait to see Dune Messiah. And their reaction to it.
@@Myke_thehuman [crosses self]
@@Myke_thehuman i'm sure interstellar genocide wouldn't happen in the process 😀👍
@@Myke_thehuman ah. Perfect book for psychology
A quiet place and it’s sequel is so stupid. Why would u have a baby in a world that needs silence to survive ???
As someone else who prefers genre fiction to “art”, I really get what Alan is saying here. And I think the reason Villeneuve is the exception is that he is still telling a story. I’ve always felt that the problem with prestige anything is that the main goal is to be Art. It looks pretty, it hits the right buzzwords, it pushes boundaries; none of which are bad, but it means there’s a lot of layers around nothing. Because when the goal is acclaim or weirdness or awards, it means the goal is not telling a story. The core of the film or book is just not there.
Action, comedy, and romance novels are big fields where you have to keep your audience interested in the story, because if they get bored, it’s very easy to stop and go find something else. It doesn’t have to be groundbreaking, but it does to have to be compelling. Villeneuve makes his arthouse movies like genre films- the story is the centerpiece, with the artsy elements enhancing it, rather than replacing it.
Yes.
"Global worming!"
Man I love the subs sometimes, it's like finding little pieces of gold.
And thanks for the episode, at least i finally realized (I'm 32 now) that my mom has this kinda parenting, where her criticism of me and my actions is an act of love. I mean I realized she wanted the best for me, but it's hard when you give up wanting the best for yourself because your self esteem and worth is kinda undermined by the constant thought of "whatever I do, it will never be good enough" (the negative thought spiral begins there).
I have too many thoughts and feels about that soooo...
Thank you!
What I understand from having read many of the books is Jessica really wasn't that bad of a mother. She was more a rebel than anything that wanted to protect her child. From memory, she was meant to have a daughter with Leto who would eventually marry into Harkkonen with their offspring being the (not even attempting to spell it) but the chosen one. She broke her vow to the Bene Gesseret by having a son that Leto hoped for. It just happened Paul was that being. Anyway, she taught him the ways of the Bene Gesseret not because she knew but to protect him if and when they would come to test him. To me it seems like she pulled a move similar to any story where a spy or similar chooses a family life but it still comes back to bite them. Spy Kids for example which if you haven't done would be bloody amazing.
Sure she won't win mother of the year but is she a bad one? What I remember from the books at least is no.
I do have to say they really did well with how they handled interpersonal stuff in this movie. I have yet to watch this version but everything I've seen is just awesome. All I wished for was a Patrick Stewart appearance
People don't tend to condemn Jessica's disastrous parenting because of Paul, but rather because of Alia. She abandoned her FOUR-YEAR-OLD DAUGHTER at the end of the novel, leaving her to be "raised" by Harah and Paul, while simultaneously becoming one of Paul's advisors and the high priestess of the cult of Muad'Dib... and struggling to form her own identity to counter the constant push of her Other Memories to take over her mind.
"best pilot in the resistance" "what's in the booox?!" i love that you guys have the exact same thoughts at the exact same parts of the movie as i do 😂
SAME HERE
As a French Canadian viewer, I found the beginning of this video highly entertaining
You're welcome 😂
Jono: I'm curious to see if in the second film those visions come true
Me: *looks around and starts whistling*
10:16 "This isn't the best parenting, letting your child be tortured." Correct but one must remember Jessica is most decidedly a member of a cult. She may have shrugged off some of their controls by having a son and not a daughter as ordered, and as she could have controlled, but she has been raised and conditioned within that cult since birth.
Haha as a French native speaker watching Jono being corrected with another wrong pronunciation is fun xD
Reminds me of when as kids we had fights about how to pronounce our favorites video games and realizing as adults that everybody was so wrong hahaha
In any way, congrats to all of the people learning different languages! You’re awesome!
Come on! "eu" isn't a sound that exists in English, give them a break. :P
As a fellow native French speaker, I sincerely thought Alan's pronunciation was just fine. You must take into consideration that English and French use very different phonemes, and that there are sounds involved in the name "Villeneuve" that a native English speaker has literally never learned to produce unless they've been learning and regularly speaking French.
And even so, getting rid of an English accent while speaking French might just require you to enlist the help of a speech therapist / coach that will work with you to give you exercises to learn to shape certain vowels and consonants in order to eventually sound like a native French speaker.
Then, there's the question of what type of French you wish to learn to pronounce and sound like, as Canadian French is a lot more phonetically diverse than most types of European French.
This is one of the reasons why we can learn to pick up that "th" sound fairly quickly whereas someone that knows Metropolitan French (the type of French spoken in Paris, France) will tend to have to pronounce it like a "z". They'll say "ze cat" instead of "the cat", something French Canadians will never do.
So really, it's not pronounced exactly the way a French Canadian would say it, but he seems to be aiming for the right sounds, and to have a fairly decent idea of how he's supposed to be saying the name.
Update: Okay, I'm done watching the whole episode.
They repeat Denis' name a few times near the end. Alan actually surprised me, because he's pronouncing it even more accurately when he naturally uses the name in conversation (maybe because it's said faster, and without emphasis that run the risk of being slightly misplaced), and even Jonathan nearly nailed its pronunciation (miracles do happen! 😆) when he gave it another try.
Taking the English accent into consideration, and the lack of "regular French usage / knowledge / training", they've got that French Canadian name right.
@@hirondelline You are right, except that in "Villeneuve", "eu" is pronounced like "uh" and not like in "joyeux." But yeah, you need to be fluent in French to know that, and Alan's pronunciation is better than most I've heard...
@@Xerxes2005, you mean a French "uh"? Because, in English, "uh" sounds a bit like "ah" in French...
The "eu" in Villeneuve sounds like the "eu" in "neuf" but ends with a "v" instead of an "f".
@@TheLostGirl21 That's what I meant. Although, to me, "uh" sounds more like "euh" than "ah"... Like the "a" in "That's *a* cat."
Your editor is ON POINT! Hilarious intro!! I love watching you both so much. Insightful, generous, and so, so fun!
Sorry guys, you dropped the ball with this analysis of Jessica, she's doing everything that she can in a constrained environment to protect her son.
Jessica did NOT have Paul because she thought she could create the Kwisatz Hadarach. The Bene Gesserit actually ordered her to have a girl (they can control the sex of a child through their powers). She defied them and had Paul because she truly loved Leto and knew how much he wanted a son and heir. It was an act of love.
I cannot explain to you my utter EXCITEMENT when I saw the notification for this video, Dune is hands down one of my favorite movies (and I am reading the books, too!).
Hope you enjoyed it!
@@CinemaTherapyShow I definitely did! Also loved how Alan and I had the exact same reaction about the second half of Dune... let's just say Dune Part 2 is going to be ✨spicy✨
Herbert had to split the first book up into three books. Ah, classic set of books.
The Books started in the 1960s when Frank Herbert was out to write a book on the ecology of the Oregon Sand Dunes. He put it something bit him while out here and wrote the books. The movie here has combined much of Lady Jessica and her mother. What I recall of the books, she is just as complex and stern, and far more compassionate. She is based on Frank Herbert's wife, and her mother on his mother. Much of the book is also him dealing with his upbringing.
After watching this, I would love to see your reactions to Marvel's 'Moonknight'. Oscar Isaac is such an amazing actor, and their representation of DID in the show is really interesting. From what I know about DID, it felt much more realistic compared to some other films, but I'd very much like to see Johnathan's takes on it. Plus it's film making and costume design is gorgeous :)
What's DID?
@@hassanalkhalaf1115 DID stands for Dissasociative Identity Disorder, and from what I know, its a coping mechanism for trauma, specifically for people who experienced large amounts of trauma from a young age, before 8 or so. Since their personality isn't fully developed yet, it can split, creating 'alters', which are essentially like different people in one body, who can have different memories, emotions and quirks.
They can control the body on their own, or along with other alters, and can hold the traumatic memories so that other alters can live ordinary lives. DID functions in a way so that the alter/s that don't hold these memories of trauma actually don't know that the DID exists, and people generally don't find this out until later in life. This aspect of DID plays into Moonknight, which follows the story of Steven who is only just realising that he has this disorder.
The show doesn't use much terminology, but is a pretty cool representation of what can happen (in a superhero/vigilante context of course) :>
Ehhhhh, it's depiction of D.I.D has some issues, speaking as a person who has it, but it’s not as problematic as other depictions
@@DasSpaceAce Ohhhh ok, nicee :)) Yeah I was basing off the fact that the producers and Oscar Isaac talked about doing a lot of research into DID beforehand uk, which I hadn't heard a lot about with other movies that have DID. But that's so cool to know lol, was there anything super problematic about Moonknight?
5:23 This line is also genius marketing. They put it in the trailers, and it’s literally the entire reason I looked forward to seeing it at my uncle’s. I love Oscar Isaac Hernández Estrada and I love Leto Atraides.
Hey could we get Cinema Therapy for Mary Lennox and Colin Craven in The Secret Garden? There is fun to be head there. Tantrums, neglect, finding companionship, spoiling children, grief, a boy not learning to walk until he's 10 (but his muscles not having atrophied beyond saving), Mary out bratting her cousin.
Im sure the answers in his book of all thats good and true
So glad you’re covering this! Dune is the best movie I’ve seen in ages and any excuse to consume more of it is more than welcome. Also that intro was hilarious. Keep doing what you’re doing because it’s great!!
The pure nerding out of Alan was adorable. Jono moving the ad along was hilarious
I think it is much more clear in the 84 version (and the book) that Jessica loves her son, as simply her son. But she HAS to try her best to prepare him for what is inevitably coming.
It's like what was said about Duke Letos approach to raising him in doing ones best before eventually letting him go his own way. Jessica is just aware of other pressures regarding Pauls future.
Loved being able to be a part of this and your Moonstruck project. Wonderful job, and it was literally the highlight of my year to be able to meet you guys. Thanks so much for making this Dune geek so happy! ❤️
The 'global worming' subtitles at the very end of the video absolutely sent me!
Considering the pressure and danger they're under, I think they did pretty good as parents.
In the books, Lady Jessica wasn't the only one training Paul. He was also trained to be a Mentat by Leto and Thufir Hawat. A Mentat is a human computer, able to make huge calculations and predict enemy plans with logic. So Leto had just as much of an agenda as Jessica in Paul's future.
SO CLOSE TO A MILLION SUBS COME ON WE GOT THIS
🎉 Still can't believe it!
Was hoping for Jonathan to say something about that "fear is the mind killer" mantra thing and how effective he thinks mantras in general are in therapy and dealing with fear and anxiety. I see many people who aren't even dune fans (or know where that quote is from) use it and swear by it like it's a quote from the bible lol
As a French Canadian, I had a good laugh from the start XD
Dune is a masterpiece. When we went to the cinema I told my boyfriend after watching, that every shot could have been made a wallpaperimage. It was stunning. And of course in combination with Hans Zimmers music even more epic.
I *LOVE* Dune. I have read the series at least once a year for the last 30 years. I have found so many layers to the story.
I wonder how would you react to "The perks of being a wallflower", most of the main characters deal with hard problems and it would be interesting to see your approach. Charlie, the main character, has childhood trauma due to being assaulted by his aunt, Patrick hides his sexuality and his relationship, Sam has bad grades and fears for her future. It's a nice movie and there's a lot to cover.
They have done that film, and it was very good and insightful. They explained some key parts really well. It was the first vid of their's I watched. 👍
INTRO ALONE WAS SOOOOOO GOOD
15:22 the reason he asks the Bene Gesserit is that they are the super powerful and he knows he has a good chance of being assasinated. He wants to know is the bene gesserit will protect him, he’s not even asking Jessica’s as a Bene, he’s asking if her sisters will.
20:41 all this part resonates with me so hard John. At some point I said "f*ck it,I'm done"and stop caring about what my parents said about me and at that moment I felt so free and my own person
My mom is a combo of Jessica and Mother Gothel from Tangled. Lots of expectations and demands about what I should be, how I should feel, what I should want, what I should do, thrown in with a massive heap of gaslighting whenever I fail to be those things. My mom is definitely a Narcissist- in that she gains her fulfillment by me validating her existence by acting exactly as she would. I have cried so many times “I’m never ever going to be good enough for her. I could be the ruler of the entire galaxy, but if its not exactly what she chose to do with her life, it means nothing.” But the thing is, she SAYS she’s proud of me, doesn’t care about the choices I make, loves me regardless etc. However her actions Do Not Show It At All. She actually kicked me out of the house for a short while when I was a teenager, because we had a screaming match about the fact I wanted to go to an Art’s school for writing for my last two years of high school. When I was allowed to come back, she FORCED me to apply (and go through a lot of stress prepping for) the Math and Science version of that same school. Another time we had a knock down drag out was when I told her I was quitting pre-med in college (she’s a doctor and wanted me to do the same). Another massive fight when I told her I was going to pursue Psychology. I remember very vividly her screaming at me “YOU’RE SO FUCKING SMART YOU’RE JUST LAZY, WHY WON’T YOU JUST DO IT!!!!!” And slamming her hand so hard on the glass coffee table she sprained her fingers. Incidents like these have been the story of my life.
And Jono was completely right. Eventually you stop trying to win their approval and start rebelling. You stop giving them any respect. My mom has constantly accused me of disrespecting her, and she is correct, I have very little respect for her. And she asks me all the time “Why???” I don’t tell her, because that would get me kicked out, but I know the reason. Because I have never been anything more to her than a means to fill the massive void she has inside.
I love her dearly, I always have and I always will. She came from an abusive and neglectful environment, I know exactly why she is the way she is. At this point I don’t hold it against her, but its still incredibly hard to endure. I’m the last person she really has in her life that’s close to her. She’s either pushed away, or alienated everyone else. But I do what I can.
OMG. You are amazing. I have had a similar experience with my mom. It was a journey to learn to say no, in a way that isn't angry and attacking or manipulative. You are awesome because you are being faced with someone that loves you and is trying , but they get things wrong. You are trying to respond in a way of goodness, compation, and healing. Obviously our Mothers are different, but over the years. I have foud healthy ways to set boundaries without being cruel. I wish you success
Soon you will be old enough that you are not dependent on her support, and that struggle to balance self-protection and your love for her will get a little easier. Or at least it got easier for me.
if youre the last person she has in a way you still have power. she deserves to be old and alone one day
@@landofthehazymist No, she doesn’t.
She has treated me terribly. She’s done terrible things that have left me scarred. But she doesn’t deserve to be punished even further. That is why, as much as I can, I try to answer her rage with compassion and understanding. Sometimes I fail. Sometimes I lash out in anger, bc I am being attacked. But I try not to.
She’s not evil. She does not revel in pain or misery. She has a black hole of need in her. I have made my peace with the notion that I will never fill that hole. The fact that she is trying to fill a bottomless void does not excuse what she has done to me. But trying to punish her doesn’t make me feel any better. Bc punishment would not cure her behavior. Nor does it soothe me- bc her behavior would not have occurred had someone else not brutalized her as well.
My father on the other hand- that is a different story.
Re: the visions Paul experiences, Villeneuve changes some to make the visions more multiversal. The books describe him seeing many paths before choosing a best possible “golden path”. This movie shows us Jamis acting as Paul’s future mentor/friend, even though he kills him in the duel. He can literally see the multiverse in a way that feels very Everything Everywhere All At Once-esque:)
Seriously, going through these movies with you guys explaining is really worthwhile. I am currently undergoing therapy and drawing boundaries, and now I see why I am drawn to these kind of movies with parents/children relations. Seeing that you explain what is healthy parent/child relationship is of enormous value, uplifting. I really doubt that you'll see this, but I appreciate the work you do either way. Had to put that out
Seeing Jon speak Spanish was so cool!
This commentary really validated my feelings about my family. Thank you.
You're so welcome.
I've been going through your videos and just wanted to comment that I love and value seeing the emotion from Alan constantly is so encouraging and validating as I never got that from the men in my family. And me and my mom, who show emotion like Alan, were made to feel wrong in that. I also love how Jono reacts, just being a friend, maybe support, sometimes humor, but not belittling. Thank you for all your content and being real with us and sharing this with us all.