@@O247G This explains why he got kicked off many events, has permanent drama issues, covers a game like league which he is admitedly clueless about, is always looking to flame the defenseless, and generally just tries to keep living off his media influence. I get it.
@@martintremblay1476 this also explains why he consistently gets great guests and has more talk shows than literally anyone else in esport. Keep hating kid he'll get his bag :)
@@martintremblay1476 ? didn't the guy above you state facts? and was anything I said not a fact? you can be coy if you want, the fact of the matter is he makes money and you don't. Just keep watching kid.
@@jevonscantlebury9834 its not at all, it was a fun joke when he said "he is good at loosing lane" but he explained what he means xD perkz is too funny love him
Timestamps (first time doing them hope they're okay) 0:00 Intro 1:42 Aphelios 6:00 Death's Dance/Conqueror 8:37 ADC as a role in current/past metas 15:56 Dependency of ADC on draft/team strength 18:54 ADC vs support picks in current meta 21:38 How to fix the ADC meta 25:46 Dragons and how they affect bot (rito pls revert soul) 32:20 Upset on mages into aphelios 34:30 Old vs new ADCs, difficulty of balancing ADCs for solo lanes 39:25 Aphelios winrate; why Aphelios struggles against meta midlaners 41:08 Toplane and ADC 44:22 Skirmishing as an ADC 46:30 Varus 50:59 ADC in Season 9 vs 10 55:29 1v9 ADCs and Yuumi 58:09 Damage/power creep in LoL 59:52 "There's no more farming for late game" and volatility in the botlane 1:01:15 More discussion of Season 9 vs 10 botlane meta and lack of counterplay in matchups 1:03:26 Drafting for ADC 1:05:15 Looking back at all the old ADC metas 1:11:13 More on balance, specifically Senna/Aphelios vs midlane (Sylas/Akali) This episode is kinda depressing and very heavily nostalgic so I'll kinda summarize what I thought Perkz/Upset said: Basically champ design is pretty bad for Aphelios/Senna. Having A/S kinda breaks all other ADCs since they are very good at farming and have push, but also scale better than a lot of other ADCs, which breaks what we've always had of weak early game/strong late; strong early/late. They can't come up with a way to fix it since having these champs basically made you unable to play 10 other ADCs and they've already been nerfed a bunch and it's still that way. They feel that Aphelios/Senna also don't have a lot of skill expression in terms of individualism and basically require your team to draft/play around it. Also ADC doesn't have a large amount of counter play outside of draft, there's a lot of handshaking (ex Kalista will always have push over anyone else), which nobody likes. All of this is also made worse by the dragons, which you basically can't give up any more, so you have to have push in bot to get the drakes b/c giving up 2-3 feels really really bad. And getting the drakes just means you do the same exact thing every time, so it's boring.
Perkz and Upset cracking jokes and laughing, Thornton stony-faced waiting for the perfect moment to laugh at his own jokes. “Put it like this,” he says, a smile beginning to creep across his face, “if TSM had done that, Leena would’ve leaked it faster than Dardoch getting kicked from another team.” You genius, he thinks. You’ve done it again. (In all seriousness this was a great episode)
So good to hear 2 pros go back and forth and banter about past and current league is so good. Kudos to Thorin for staying silent and letting the conversation flow.
To be honest, Senna is a champion that LS would design. She has infinitely scaling stats, she can heal, shield, tank and dps. She can build ad or ap or go full tank and still somehow do all of the above at the same time while going stronger and stronger as the game goes on :)
I really enjoyed this episode, upset has a lot of interesting opinions for sure (and perkz is great as always). I would love a similar style episode for other roles,for example support and jungle, would be interesting.
1:00:15 talking about season 5. I remember going back into vods, I was master tier at the time and on average I had to do only 3 basic attacks on Draven botlane, before an enemy top would TP bot. sample size was 5 games.
kinda agree with it. U just lack so much dps on tfs and in objective control. U just have to have a adc toplane or a trist,lucian mid or even a graves,kindred jgl to compensate the lack of dps
@@philippmuller898 Yeh I think that some mages have some great viability in teamfights like cass or viktor maybe veig but like you said you give up a lot of early dps in a meta revolved around pre 20 minute fights. If it was tank meta again I wouldnt mind revisiting the idea though.
The point about DotA is actually why I prefer it, there are so many matchups to learn and with the right team setup almost anything can be viable. The increased freedom is great.
Absolutely true, Aphelios Senna has ruined bot lane meta, every game is the same bot lane and I don't know how to fix it with Aphelios Senna design like nerfs won't even be shit.
I personally think removing the lifesteal from severum (the red gun) would do the trick. The spell is still good because it grants movespeed and stacks your other gun passives (especially with hurricane). You still have life steal too from runes and items, but none of the 900+ heals per auto. Without the red gun, as far as I know, Aphelios cannot do the 200 years special and survive an entire team diving on him.
I guess 10 nerfs in a row finally did the trick to put Aphelios back from god tier to S tier in pro, at the expense of his viability anywhere else. But at some point they'll have to scrap at least 1 or 2 guns completely, it's simply not fair that he gets to have... 25? I think it's 25 weapon combos while other champions peak at 6 abilities for the metamorphs. And if he was good at everything but systematically beaten by other champs in certain domains I could see it in theory, but apart from Ezreal and Senna he had to be nerfed 10 times and see other adcs getting buffs for them to even compete against him.
Hey, i notice that perkz, for obvius reasons, is kinda off, i'm sure that an organization like g2 provide a lot of help and keep working help to keep his mind in other things, but in this kind of stuff never is too much, pls keep recomending mental help to him. Good luck and i hope he can go throug this situation with the best result possible
PerkZ had no motivation even before all of this happened. Every offseason he starts streaming and constantly complains about the game, about the ADC role. Then he switches to playing mid in solo que, then he duos bot with miky and then he stops playing solo que and plays Valorant with Wunder and Miky. It's the same every offseason minus the recent release of Valorant. He's been burned out for so long now, he is just dragging out is career because he wants to win worlds. But he's not been able to put in the hours due to burnout. The situation with his parents made everything worse. But it has been a longterm problem.
Perkz really has a point about not being able to play the map, essentially the game as come to who does have the strongest picks, can you get drakes, heralds and plates. It really does take away the 'map' perspective things away from the game, which is why I think G2 in particular aren't as strong. I also hate that because of the drakes split pushing is not really viable. I don't AD much but I bloody hate laning into Senna in particular, she just has too much utility for a 'carry but supportive champ' she needs to lean more into her intended supportive role. Aphelios is just a design joke. Least they are nerfing him but I think they really should take the perspective on him being immobile and nerfing his movement. I always like the AD champs that do have some personal agency but can be great with synergies. Anyway great episode! :)
Well to be fair, when he needs to host and bring something from his guests, he does, but he also knows not to intervene if he can't bring anything relevant to the conversation, he's a bit tilting sometimes, but he knows when he doesn't need to say anything.
Yuumi mains could still play Yuumi last patch. At least when I played her I think if you don't spam your heals early and go for more mana regen instead of mana then she was still insanely strong so you didn't have to buff her already in my opinion.
Omg spicy!!! this is some good content Thorin! Also, I was wondering, since Meteos is now without a team, might be a cool idea to get him on one of your shows!
@@ronaldogarcia9897 eh he is still an adc with Cait range, a slow/root, turrets, aoe damage an insane ult when it lands on multiple people built in life steal. What more does an adc want from their kit?
@Thoorin @Perkz @UPSET Dear guys, My personal opinnion is that the bot lane has not anymore the early advantage to scale , he find very difficult a target in bot lane ,because he constantly needs jungle/mid ganks to achieve something in bot lane. This mostly happen since Riot reworked support items to update for free , which means that support can build now directly more ap scaling for trades if it's a mage like zyra etc... ,and if it is a shield champion he really cheap buy the 800 gold item which gives it mana regen and +8% stronger heal/shields , which can slow really much the early of who's winning the bot lane to the mid-game - end of game . Another problem is that even if the game gets longer ,there are now elder drakes which execute champions on 20% hp this is broken for any role , i mean it just deny your chances to survive out of a fight .(very powerful against adc/mage/support or champions who are squishy / hard to deal and to fight against). And if that's not the only problem , in past the support had to buy the upgrade for support item , or to buy sightstone which wouldn't boost exactly the support in protective status , giving time for ADC to scale and to defeat enemy adc early , so they could punish more hard the enemy mistakes. Another problem is regarding the cooldowns , some cooldowns been really low decreased ,for exemple jax q is a leap of 700 range with 6 sec cd (5 points in q=> 3.6 seconds on 40%cdr ) . The cooldown reduction is too easy to build and to scale , that you get from runes now on every mage . For exemple as mage you don't have so much to sacrifice in terms of runes choice , while as ADC you constantly feel like you need multiple stuffs from runes but you always sacriface something you need as you can't get everything would be good for your performance . We all seen legend of bloodline getting nerfed =>then the whole adc sustain collapse and it was quit difficult to distance yourself of others ,then fleet footwork also got nerf , the overheal is not that attractive as is presence of mind in terms of early poke mana (adc has the lowest mana pool) => which in fact some adc champions use large amounts of mana and would work much better with some extra mana (exemple jinx in terms of trades on q/w) - Without presence of mind the mana would get to 0 too quick (essence river is the only kind of item which somehow gives you mana for adc , the manamune doesn't work on every champion). In general the cooldowns are a big problem in 2020 , we see ultimates which fall under 40 seconds ,which goes slightly towards some lower than the 40-45%cdr limit waiting time for ultimates => due to the fact ultimate hunter +cloud drakes interact and lower much more the cooldowns than the 40% cdr limit or 45%cdr limit is seted (when inspiration rune ). The fact some champion as the perks sayd , malphite has 1000 range cast + a large impact circle and his damage can oneshot adc (his R on lower cdr is kind of 40 seconds or less + it can only be dodge if you have abilities to dodge that or a zhonya , but otherwise is impossible on likely 90% of all adc champion pool ). The difference between season 1/2/3/4/5 is that back then the ultimates had over 120 seconds cooldowns ultimates , and even at max lvl R you wouldn't have acces so often to ultimate which would also mean if you miss your ultimate ,enemy can benefit and can exploit that in them advantage , nowadays there is no fight without to have your ultimate (which makes the game very difficult for ADC to find a gate where he can play without to be one shot or be focused by some cc/leaps/dashes/blinks into fights ) . In fact the abilities damage also increased due to runes being more easy to scale on some different roles than it feels that adc runes are for ADC role , for exemple electrocutate/arcane comet/dark harvest can be really powerful in hands of an assassins and some bruisers can use them too , while as adc ain't even feel like you can even dream to build that in your runes. Items choices for adc is poor in solutions , you don't have defensive items special designed to help you as adc , i feel that if the ADC would have at least one item to blink them on a 400 distance range , that would be constantly builded because most of the ADC needs instant movement items to escape from a certain situation where is targeted by too strong CC/SLOW/Someone moving too fast or leap/jumping on him ,as movement doesn't even help them to survive or to set themself in a safe spot (i believe beside some champions like ezreal/tristana/xayah is very difficult to dodge the CC/take yourself away from a danger as ADC. This explain why most of the time getting catched by enemy having no flash gets you death. (happens too often and is too difficult to dodge constantly and abilities and ultimates). Cdr is a big problem as it reduces and ultimate and abilities in the same time , cdr reduces too much the cooldowns on some abilities , meaning that some champions can do more damage from abilities than they would need damage items to achieve more damage (exemple jax q/w/e) ,ofc we don't speak here just by jax ,he is the exemple of bruiser which jumps a lot has resistance and good stunn+dodge ability , i seen sometimes fights where a jax(conquer) would carry in enemy team and i would carry in my team(jinx adc) , still enemy jax won (as it were too difficult to take it down , proably had death's dance too+conquer ). Today i seen Righteous glory 75% movement speed + mobility boots leona , guess what even as tristana couldn't took myself out for safety of the tower and i was slightly pushing.
I also feel like the ADC role is much more harder to develop itself towards a strong early state than it is for a mid lane/top in terms of chances and oportunities to kill enemy or to roam and get kills. Is the fact that as ADC you don't have oportunities to take yourself kills early ,depend too much on a perfect play to get the enemy , the enemy most of the time gets back to tower and to safety etc.. + the early also is intresting when you see some supports getting 2 potions of hp , they do mistakes which would send them base if they would have only 1 health potion(but they have 2 ) , opening you the chance of making a difference in bot , but is too hard to distance yourself as adc in the lane.(to get those moments where you can achieve some extra experience over enemy lane and some extra chances of dominating your own role over the enemy gameplay). Sometimes is also feeling like some mages have too much safety in lane against you , is difficult to scale as ADC and take your farm , when some brand launch his w and you don't even have time to dodge or to set him difficulty into hitting it , same applies when you see xerath constantly getting back mana and poke high range w/q + having e to disengage , or zyra/soraka which also don't consume much mana , but those picks are more common in lower elos ( so i can see a problem when soraka hits q on enemy and heal with only 15% health cost and gets 85% reduced health costs when healing his ally ) . Some champions will become much more powerful after the 10.15 patch as mana support item gets 50% mana regen early.
@@LiveErrors yeah you're right, its just feels like the most recent few champions have taken such a huge leap upward in power even compared to previous OP stuff
there is too much healing in the game. the fact that you MUST buy grievous wounds just to be able to play the game is bullshit imo . that should be an option, not an obligation, and if you are vs champs like yummi, aatrox, mundo, etc... you just have to buy an item that is underwhelming on every other aspect but you need the anti-heal.
Would be the next in a long list of things in the game changed/nerfed because of ezreal. Klepto, Double Tear, Deaths Dance (aphelios helped), Runeglaive, Elder Lizard I'm sure I'm missing a few as well
Yelsew all ranged champions that built iceborn were all unfun to play against, hard to balance and broken. Viktor was gutted for nearly 2 years because of the tank build, which only worked because of iceborn, same for karma and ezreal. He is already hard to lock down cuz he has insane mobility and range, but then when you lock him down he is really Tanky , while also having slows on q and not losing much damage. This is a change that should have been done years ago imo
Im still surpriced that we believe that ADC are a most have in 2020. Is like midlaners only wanted to play assasins or toplaners only wanting to play Bruisers, everyone has played diferent styles except botlane who refuse to play something that is not a ranged AD carry. If the meta says we dont need late game carrys can we please just pick other things?
Problem is bot meta is constructed either around contesting drakes early or a usually game deciding teamfight on soul point (20-25min in the game) where currently broken adc who hit (3) item point earlier win you the game. Or Syndra / boring Senna comps :)
There are some statements in this that seem contradictory - kinds wish Thoron had picked up on them. Both agree that Senna and aphelios are op, and that the ADC role is super important in the meta right now. And that top lane isn't that important atm. But they also agree that picking Malphite and Orianna means that the enemy ADC just can't play the game. So why aren't these champs getting pick banned every game? Also - if the ADC role is so important, and the champ pool is so small, why aren't teams just banning them out every game? Blue side bans senna and aphelios, forces red side to ban kallista, and then boom - we're in an entirely different meta.
Their argument isn't contradictory. Basically the argument is: 2 champions are meta, making all the other champs except 1, ezreal, unplayable in lane. But these 2 champions can be countered by other lanes. (orianna and malphite) Which means that you have two options: 1) you pick Aphelios or Senna and risk being hard countered by the rest of the enemy team. 2) you pick something else, lose lane hard to Aphelios and senna, maybe get countered by the rest of the enemy team or maybe you don't. So from the ADC perspective Option 1 has some chance of success (you don't get countered by enemy team in other lanes) Option 2 has no chance of success, you get crushed in lane, and perhaps countered by the other lanes. Are far as I can tell, there are no contradictions. About the banning the ADC's, then you are expending 2 bans to have a equal balance of power, while the enemy team can use their bans for target bans. You basically gave away 2 free bans, whilst still creating a 50/50 which you had previously. But the enemy team still has their 2 bans.
i don't get this idea of dragons making the game more boring. having important objectives that you must contest creates more teamfights which are more exciting. has perkz watched the LCK lately? imagine how much of a snoozefest it'd be if objectives were less important
the boring part is that you kinda follow the same script every game, theres less creativity now about what to do on the map, because you have to meet at the drake every 5 minutes
G2 style relied on avoiding team fights and using their prio advantage to make plays through side lanes and taking the additional gold from plating/towers. Now that it's nerfed G2 has fell off a cliff and a lot of teams have been stacking drake soul pre 25mins on G2.
Man this episode really wasn't up to the Thorin standard. Having a co-host who can push the players a little bit more in dept makes these shows flow so much better.
Just make Kalista, Senna, Aphelios lanning suck then everything will be alright KEKW All of them scale well so there is no reason to let them strong in lane.
Thorin's piss poor game knowledge is actually mind blowing I'd say it's surprising how insanely bad Perkz's read of the meta is but they've been losing a bunch so lmaooooo
Didn’t enjoy this episode that much to be honest- even though the line up is extremely good. Somehow Thorin kept the conversation extremely formal and general, not enough in depth questions and funny personal experiences which make the show more entertaining. Anyways thanks for the content
he can‘t keep getting away with getting insane guests
unlike what most of reddit would want you to believe, Thorin is actually respected among pro players and his peers
@@O247G This explains why he got kicked off many events, has permanent drama issues, covers a game like league which he is admitedly clueless about, is always looking to flame the defenseless, and generally just tries to keep living off his media influence. I get it.
@@martintremblay1476 this also explains why he consistently gets great guests and has more talk shows than literally anyone else in esport. Keep hating kid he'll get his bag :)
@@amadeaus9119 No need to hate me for stating facts mate. And you have a point it seems he cant keep one talk show going.
@@martintremblay1476 ? didn't the guy above you state facts? and was anything I said not a fact? you can be coy if you want, the fact of the matter is he makes money and you don't. Just keep watching kid.
Crazy lineup this episode, I'm really excited to hear from everyone.
"Rekkles was really good at losing lane"
never change Perkz xD
That is not a diss but do you
@@jevonscantlebury9834 its not at all, it was a fun joke when he said "he is good at loosing lane" but he explained what he means xD perkz is too funny love him
@@jevonscantlebury9834 the fact that it's not a diss doesn't make it any less funny tbh
Timestamps (first time doing them hope they're okay)
0:00 Intro
1:42 Aphelios
6:00 Death's Dance/Conqueror
8:37 ADC as a role in current/past metas
15:56 Dependency of ADC on draft/team strength
18:54 ADC vs support picks in current meta
21:38 How to fix the ADC meta
25:46 Dragons and how they affect bot (rito pls revert soul)
32:20 Upset on mages into aphelios
34:30 Old vs new ADCs, difficulty of balancing ADCs for solo lanes
39:25 Aphelios winrate; why Aphelios struggles against meta midlaners
41:08 Toplane and ADC
44:22 Skirmishing as an ADC
46:30 Varus
50:59 ADC in Season 9 vs 10
55:29 1v9 ADCs and Yuumi
58:09 Damage/power creep in LoL
59:52 "There's no more farming for late game" and volatility in the botlane
1:01:15 More discussion of Season 9 vs 10 botlane meta and lack of counterplay in matchups
1:03:26 Drafting for ADC
1:05:15 Looking back at all the old ADC metas
1:11:13 More on balance, specifically Senna/Aphelios vs midlane (Sylas/Akali)
This episode is kinda depressing and very heavily nostalgic so I'll kinda summarize what I thought Perkz/Upset said:
Basically champ design is pretty bad for Aphelios/Senna. Having A/S kinda breaks all other ADCs since they are very good at farming and have push, but also scale better than a lot of other ADCs, which breaks what we've always had of weak early game/strong late; strong early/late. They can't come up with a way to fix it since having these champs basically made you unable to play 10 other ADCs and they've already been nerfed a bunch and it's still that way. They feel that Aphelios/Senna also don't have a lot of skill expression in terms of individualism and basically require your team to draft/play around it. Also ADC doesn't have a large amount of counter play outside of draft, there's a lot of handshaking (ex Kalista will always have push over anyone else), which nobody likes.
All of this is also made worse by the dragons, which you basically can't give up any more, so you have to have push in bot to get the drakes b/c giving up 2-3 feels really really bad. And getting the drakes just means you do the same exact thing every time, so it's boring.
Alternate title: 2 pros lose their minds (justifiably) over Aphelios for over an hour
Holyyy
Insane combo
Perkz and Upset cracking jokes and laughing, Thornton stony-faced waiting for the perfect moment to laugh at his own jokes.
“Put it like this,” he says, a smile beginning to creep across his face, “if TSM had done that, Leena would’ve leaked it faster than Dardoch getting kicked from another team.”
You genius, he thinks. You’ve done it again.
(In all seriousness this was a great episode)
Perkz looking like a full on chad in this episode
G2 vacation has indeed done him well.
Someone had to say it
He is always chad indeed
So good to hear 2 pros go back and forth and banter about past and current league is so good. Kudos to Thorin for staying silent and letting the conversation flow.
1:14:25 When Upset said who designed this champ then it cuts to LS. I thought LS was designing them :)
LS loves overloaded kits so if he was on the design team you know it would be CertainLyS
To be honest, Senna is a champion that LS would design. She has infinitely scaling stats, she can heal, shield, tank and dps. She can build ad or ap or go full tank and still somehow do all of the above at the same time while going stronger and stronger as the game goes on :)
@@itemtest1 senna is fine for the game but yuumi is out of place
This is a super awesome format. Really insightful to listen to two of the top ADC in Europe discuss the meta. This round table format is super cool!
I really enjoyed this episode, upset has a lot of interesting opinions for sure (and perkz is great as always). I would love a similar style episode for other roles,for example support and jungle, would be interesting.
It was really nice to hear them reflect on previous metas, trip down memory lane
@Thooorin Man you are doing such good talks videos with eu, keep it up love it, can you do a series like this for every role??
Those guests were great. Probs to perkz and upset 👌🏽
Loved hearing from these two!! So fun to watch and learn
1:00:15 talking about season 5. I remember going back into vods, I was master tier at the time and on average I had to do only 3 basic attacks on Draven botlane, before an enemy top would TP bot. sample size was 5 games.
"It's 0-5-0 now" finally a meta where NA can shine
Can someone give me a timestamp for when they talk about Rekkles?
29:22
@@heartlesscaesar4427 Thanks
ADC Therapy is such an apt title for this video.
This is such a great content piece its hard to believe how well everyone synergized here, props thorin!
Upset - Idk whose designing these champs I’d like to know
This is LS... That's some nice comedic timing
Gotta love Upset
The small banter between points was so fucking great. Both Perks and Upset were phenomenal. Great content Thorin 👍
Ah yes I've been poached to carry this new format heheh - Veteran just couldn't keep up sorry
Funny thing is that Aphelios was partially designed by CertainlyT who also did the current Caitlyn rework
Mages arent viable bot because there arent many ad mids to be able to compensate for that difference
kinda agree with it. U just lack so much dps on tfs and in objective control. U just have to have a adc toplane or a trist,lucian mid or even a graves,kindred jgl to compensate the lack of dps
@@philippmuller898 Yeh I think that some mages have some great viability in teamfights like cass or viktor maybe veig but like you said you give up a lot of early dps in a meta revolved around pre 20 minute fights. If it was tank meta again I wouldnt mind revisiting the idea though.
The guest line up is insane
upset so funny. Banger of an episode thoorin wp wp!
Banger guests
This was so fucking good. 2 Absolutely sick guests!
Great guests love both of these guys
The point about DotA is actually why I prefer it, there are so many matchups to learn and with the right team setup almost anything can be viable. The increased freedom is great.
This episode feels like upset and perkz are the jerry handshaking jerry meme
Absolutely true, Aphelios Senna has ruined bot lane meta, every game is the same bot lane and I don't know how to fix it with Aphelios Senna design like nerfs won't even be shit.
I personally think removing the lifesteal from severum (the red gun) would do the trick. The spell is still good because it grants movespeed and stacks your other gun passives (especially with hurricane). You still have life steal too from runes and items, but none of the 900+ heals per auto. Without the red gun, as far as I know, Aphelios cannot do the 200 years special and survive an entire team diving on him.
I’m Diamond 1 and see plenty of variety at adc even with Aphelios and Senna getting through. This is more of an LEC/LCS pro-play issue
I guess 10 nerfs in a row finally did the trick to put Aphelios back from god tier to S tier in pro, at the expense of his viability anywhere else. But at some point they'll have to scrap at least 1 or 2 guns completely, it's simply not fair that he gets to have... 25? I think it's 25 weapon combos while other champions peak at 6 abilities for the metamorphs. And if he was good at everything but systematically beaten by other champs in certain domains I could see it in theory, but apart from Ezreal and Senna he had to be nerfed 10 times and see other adcs getting buffs for them to even compete against him.
Thanks, very good insight
HOLY POGGERS, sick lineup
Who do you got, Thorin? Whittaker or Till?
Hey, i notice that perkz, for obvius reasons, is kinda off, i'm sure that an organization like g2 provide a lot of help and keep working help to keep his mind in other things, but in this kind of stuff never is too much, pls keep recomending mental help to him. Good luck and i hope he can go throug this situation with the best result possible
PerkZ had no motivation even before all of this happened. Every offseason he starts streaming and constantly complains about the game, about the ADC role. Then he switches to playing mid in solo que, then he duos bot with miky and then he stops playing solo que and plays Valorant with Wunder and Miky. It's the same every offseason minus the recent release of Valorant. He's been burned out for so long now, he is just dragging out is career because he wants to win worlds. But he's not been able to put in the hours due to burnout. The situation with his parents made everything worse. But it has been a longterm problem.
@@io8743 what happened to his family?
@@io8743 i honestly don't care, as a fan of competive LoL as a emphatic person i wish him the best, nothing more, nothing less
@@aurthohinreza6702 his father died 5 days before summer split started
Its not G2 meta + roleswaps havent helped either.
Love your work
Lets go!!
@thorin make more episodes like this! would like to see a like, caps and larsen episode.
Regarding drakes I think the biggest mistake was nerfing their hp by 20%, it makes it way too easy to kill them early game
No homo but Perkz is looking good af.
29:20 is the best burn ever.
42:12 this is pretty good as well
It's literally a compliment.
2:40 Perkz about how Aphelios and Senna release fucked bot lane drafting, so true
Perkz really has a point about not being able to play the map, essentially the game as come to who does have the strongest picks, can you get drakes, heralds and plates. It really does take away the 'map' perspective things away from the game, which is why I think G2 in particular aren't as strong. I also hate that because of the drakes split pushing is not really viable. I don't AD much but I bloody hate laning into Senna in particular, she just has too much utility for a 'carry but supportive champ' she needs to lean more into her intended supportive role. Aphelios is just a design joke. Least they are nerfing him but I think they really should take the perspective on him being immobile and nerfing his movement. I always like the AD champs that do have some personal agency but can be great with synergies. Anyway great episode! :)
Thorin just sitting there: "Hell yea, Content"
He doesn't have to do to much, no wonder you don't need a Co-Host xD
Well to be fair, when he needs to host and bring something from his guests, he does, but he also knows not to intervene if he can't bring anything relevant to the conversation, he's a bit tilting sometimes, but he knows when he doesn't need to say anything.
Yuumi mains could still play Yuumi last patch. At least when I played her I think if you don't spam your heals early and go for more mana regen instead of mana then she was still insanely strong so you didn't have to buff her already in my opinion.
Omg spicy!!! this is some good content Thorin! Also, I was wondering, since Meteos is now without a team, might be a cool idea to get him on one of your shows!
Credit to Thorin for keeping quiet and letting the guests actually have a conversation!
loved this
what the fuck, straight fire guests
I think if there was a max of say 5 shurikens and infernum didn't work with hurricane aphelios would be fine.
He would be pretty weak lol
@@ronaldogarcia9897 eh he is still an adc with Cait range, a slow/root, turrets, aoe damage an insane ult when it lands on multiple people built in life steal. What more does an adc want from their kit?
@@MrThedumbbunny 200 seconds of development time
@Thoorin @Perkz @UPSET
Dear guys,
My personal opinnion is that the bot lane has not anymore the early advantage to scale , he find very difficult a target in bot lane ,because he constantly needs jungle/mid ganks to achieve something in bot lane.
This mostly happen since Riot reworked support items to update for free , which means that support can build now directly more ap scaling for trades if it's a mage like zyra etc... ,and if it is a shield champion he really cheap buy the 800 gold item which gives it mana regen and +8% stronger heal/shields , which can slow really much the early of who's winning the bot lane to the mid-game - end of game .
Another problem is that even if the game gets longer ,there are now elder drakes which execute champions on 20% hp this is broken for any role , i mean it just deny your chances to survive out of a fight .(very powerful against adc/mage/support or champions who are squishy / hard to deal and to fight against).
And if that's not the only problem , in past the support had to buy the upgrade for support item , or to buy sightstone which wouldn't boost exactly the support in protective status , giving time for ADC to scale and to defeat enemy adc early , so they could punish more hard the enemy mistakes.
Another problem is regarding the cooldowns , some cooldowns been really low decreased ,for exemple jax q is a leap of 700 range with 6 sec cd (5 points in q=> 3.6 seconds on 40%cdr ) . The cooldown reduction is too easy to build and to scale , that you get from runes now on every mage . For exemple as mage you don't have so much to sacrifice in terms of runes choice , while as ADC you constantly feel like you need multiple stuffs from runes but you always sacriface something you need as you can't get everything would be good for your performance .
We all seen legend of bloodline getting nerfed =>then the whole adc sustain collapse and it was quit difficult to distance yourself of others ,then fleet footwork also got nerf , the overheal is not that attractive as is presence of mind in terms of early poke mana (adc has the lowest mana pool) => which in fact some adc champions use large amounts of mana and would work much better with some extra mana (exemple jinx in terms of trades on q/w) - Without presence of mind the mana would get to 0 too quick (essence river is the only kind of item which somehow gives you mana for adc , the manamune doesn't work on every champion).
In general the cooldowns are a big problem in 2020 , we see ultimates which fall under 40 seconds ,which goes slightly towards some lower than the 40-45%cdr limit waiting time for ultimates => due to the fact ultimate hunter +cloud drakes interact and lower much more the cooldowns than the 40% cdr limit or 45%cdr limit is seted (when inspiration rune ).
The fact some champion as the perks sayd , malphite has 1000 range cast + a large impact circle and his damage can oneshot adc (his R on lower cdr is kind of 40 seconds or less + it can only be dodge if you have abilities to dodge that or a zhonya , but otherwise is impossible on likely 90% of all adc champion pool ).
The difference between season 1/2/3/4/5 is that back then the ultimates had over 120 seconds cooldowns ultimates , and even at max lvl R you wouldn't have acces so often to ultimate which would also mean if you miss your ultimate ,enemy can benefit and can exploit that in them advantage , nowadays there is no fight without to have your ultimate (which makes the game very difficult for ADC to find a gate where he can play without to be one shot or be focused by some cc/leaps/dashes/blinks into fights ) . In fact the abilities damage also increased due to runes being more easy to scale on some different roles than it feels that adc runes are for ADC role , for exemple electrocutate/arcane comet/dark harvest can be really powerful in hands of an assassins and some bruisers can use them too , while as adc ain't even feel like you can even dream to build that in your runes.
Items choices for adc is poor in solutions , you don't have defensive items special designed to help you as adc , i feel that if the ADC would have at least one item to blink them on a 400 distance range , that would be constantly builded because most of the ADC needs instant movement items to escape from a certain situation where is targeted by too strong CC/SLOW/Someone moving too fast or leap/jumping on him ,as movement doesn't even help them to survive or to set themself in a safe spot (i believe beside some champions like ezreal/tristana/xayah is very difficult to dodge the CC/take yourself away from a danger as ADC. This explain why most of the time getting catched by enemy having no flash gets you death. (happens too often and is too difficult to dodge constantly and abilities and ultimates).
Cdr is a big problem as it reduces and ultimate and abilities in the same time , cdr reduces too much the cooldowns on some abilities , meaning that some champions can do more damage from abilities than they would need damage items to achieve more damage (exemple jax q/w/e) ,ofc we don't speak here just by jax ,he is the exemple of bruiser which jumps a lot has resistance and good stunn+dodge ability , i seen sometimes fights where a jax(conquer) would carry in enemy team and i would carry in my team(jinx adc) , still enemy jax won (as it were too difficult to take it down , proably had death's dance too+conquer ).
Today i seen Righteous glory 75% movement speed + mobility boots leona , guess what even as tristana couldn't took myself out for safety of the tower and i was slightly pushing.
I also feel like the ADC role is much more harder to develop itself towards a strong early state than it is for a mid lane/top in terms of chances and oportunities to kill enemy or to roam and get kills.
Is the fact that as ADC you don't have oportunities to take yourself kills early ,depend too much on a perfect play to get the enemy , the enemy most of the time gets back to tower and to safety etc.. + the early also is intresting when you see some supports getting 2 potions of hp , they do mistakes which would send them base if they would have only 1 health potion(but they have 2 ) , opening you the chance of making a difference in bot , but is too hard to distance yourself as adc in the lane.(to get those moments where you can achieve some extra experience over enemy lane and some extra chances of dominating your own role over the enemy gameplay).
Sometimes is also feeling like some mages have too much safety in lane against you , is difficult to scale as ADC and take your farm , when some brand launch his w and you don't even have time to dodge or to set him difficulty into hitting it , same applies when you see xerath constantly getting back mana and poke high range w/q + having e to disengage , or zyra/soraka which also don't consume much mana , but those picks are more common in lower elos ( so i can see a problem when soraka hits q on enemy and heal with only 15% health cost and gets 85% reduced health costs when healing his ally ) . Some champions will become much more powerful after the 10.15 patch as mana support item gets 50% mana regen early.
It almost sounds like they should be in the same team....
timestamps pls
power creep is getting to be such a problem in this game
Ohh it got there years ago
@@LiveErrors yeah you're right, its just feels like the most recent few champions have taken such a huge leap upward in power even compared to previous OP stuff
@@HiggsyAndGinge That is true
maybe do one episode with toplaners
there is too much healing in the game. the fact that you MUST buy grievous wounds just to be able to play the game is bullshit imo . that should be an option, not an obligation, and if you are vs champs like yummi, aatrox, mundo, etc... you just have to buy an item that is underwhelming on every other aspect but you need the anti-heal.
Hope perkz is not tol devastated from his father etc
its dumb that ezreal can have 150 armor as an adc and still do a load of dmg. iceborn shoudl be melee only
Would be the next in a long list of things in the game changed/nerfed because of ezreal.
Klepto, Double Tear, Deaths Dance (aphelios helped), Runeglaive, Elder Lizard
I'm sure I'm missing a few as well
Yelsew all ranged champions that built iceborn were all unfun to play against, hard to balance and broken. Viktor was gutted for nearly 2 years because of the tank build, which only worked because of iceborn, same for karma and ezreal. He is already hard to lock down cuz he has insane mobility and range, but then when you lock him down he is really Tanky , while also having slows on q and not losing much damage. This is a change that should have been done years ago imo
@@yelsu3358 missing ludens as 4th item
But how good does perkz look holy
Nice to hear from perkz that this Dragon meta is as stale to play as it is to watch.
1:03:00 Kalista: Phew pew phew
1:00:00
Im still surpriced that we believe that ADC are a most have in 2020. Is like midlaners only wanted to play assasins or toplaners only wanting to play Bruisers, everyone has played diferent styles except botlane who refuse to play something that is not a ranged AD carry.
If the meta says we dont need late game carrys can we please just pick other things?
Problem is bot meta is constructed either around contesting drakes early or a usually game deciding teamfight on soul point (20-25min in the game) where currently broken adc who hit (3) item point earlier win you the game. Or Syndra / boring Senna comps :)
fire content
57:00
I Lucian's E should have a scaling, lingering movement speed boost attached to it. You just have to mobility right now.
Lucian e is pretty good tbf especially since the cooldown goes down with the use of other abilities
25:00
banger
29:20
There are some statements in this that seem contradictory - kinds wish Thoron had picked up on them.
Both agree that Senna and aphelios are op, and that the ADC role is super important in the meta right now. And that top lane isn't that important atm. But they also agree that picking Malphite and Orianna means that the enemy ADC just can't play the game. So why aren't these champs getting pick banned every game?
Also - if the ADC role is so important, and the champ pool is so small, why aren't teams just banning them out every game? Blue side bans senna and aphelios, forces red side to ban kallista, and then boom - we're in an entirely different meta.
Their argument isn't contradictory. Basically the argument is:
2 champions are meta, making all the other champs except 1, ezreal, unplayable in lane.
But these 2 champions can be countered by other lanes. (orianna and malphite)
Which means that you have two options:
1) you pick Aphelios or Senna and risk being hard countered by the rest of the enemy team.
2) you pick something else, lose lane hard to Aphelios and senna, maybe get countered by the rest of the enemy team or maybe you don't.
So from the ADC perspective
Option 1 has some chance of success (you don't get countered by enemy team in other lanes)
Option 2 has no chance of success, you get crushed in lane, and perhaps countered by the other lanes.
Are far as I can tell, there are no contradictions.
About the banning the ADC's, then you are expending 2 bans to have a equal balance of power, while the enemy team can use their bans for target bans. You basically gave away 2 free bans, whilst still creating a 50/50 which you had previously. But the enemy team still has their 2 bans.
We need M5 to brake this aphilios shit! Bring back M5!!!
i don't get this idea of dragons making the game more boring. having important objectives that you must contest creates more teamfights which are more exciting. has perkz watched the LCK lately? imagine how much of a snoozefest it'd be if objectives were less important
yeah sure you get more teamfights,but you just have to play through bot
the boring part is that you kinda follow the same script every game, theres less creativity now about what to do on the map, because you have to meet at the drake every 5 minutes
G2 style relied on avoiding team fights and using their prio advantage to make plays through side lanes and taking the additional gold from plating/towers. Now that it's nerfed G2 has fell off a cliff and a lot of teams have been stacking drake soul pre 25mins on G2.
Perkz out here with Sasuke vibes
Perkz looking like a snack
Man this episode really wasn't up to the Thorin standard. Having a co-host who can push the players a little bit more in dept makes these shows flow so much better.
maybe, but we saw more a free flow of thought from these guys and i kinda liked it
I thought it was good and I liked the player interaction. Maybe untangle the wedgie you seem to have
riot should create another lane and ruin junglers life :D Every lane is solo lane
2019 worlds meta would be the best meta ever if they buff other adcs
HOLY SHIT POGGERS GUESTS
Stop nerfing Aphelios :(
Comment for algorithm
Just ban Aphelios simply, lol
Just make Kalista, Senna, Aphelios lanning suck then everything will be alright KEKW
All of them scale well so there is no reason to let them strong in lane.
Kalista does NOT scale well. Please never play the game again thank you
First :o
Thorin's piss poor game knowledge is actually mind blowing
I'd say it's surprising how insanely bad Perkz's read of the meta is but they've been losing a bunch so lmaooooo
This is sad to watch, honestly.
Didn’t enjoy this episode that much to be honest- even though the line up is extremely good. Somehow Thorin kept the conversation extremely formal and general, not enough in depth questions and funny personal experiences which make the show more entertaining. Anyways thanks for the content
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