Repertoire: The BEST and WORST Sea Symphony by Vaughan Williams
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 6 ต.ค. 2020
- Could you have have dreamed a few decades ago that there would be around a dozen and a half recordings of this quintessentially British choral work, several from outside the UK? Well, here they are, in all of their theoretical splendor: the great and the mediocre (by which I mean DULL). Check 'em out, and pick the one that suits you best.
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I'm glad my heart survived the intro!
Best intro ever!
Best opening ever. Almost as good as the enthusiastic "Hello Friends!!!"
As brilliant as ever, Dave - that opening is so hilarious I am not even sure that you know how side-splitting it is!! Your comic timing is as genius as your insights. The one thing I wanted to say - and you say it yourself of the Boult recording - is that there are no dead spots in the finale - it only appears that way (to some ears) if the interpretation and insight are not top level. In this sense, perhaps, as RVW’s cachet increases (as it appears to be) and as a far wider range of forces at the highest level compete (or simply ‘do’) their finest takes, it will become clear to most that RVW is so far ahead of us all that the depth and degree of his relative neglect in his own day and after will go down in history - along with the similar neglect of his beloved Bach in his day and after - as one of the singular blights in mankind’s artistic and aesthetic perception. I know this has been true of my personal history with his music - not least because I lived through the modernist era and like so many of my generation were subject to Benjamin Britten’s bitter and rivalry-driven depredations(so interesting that Britten was planning a SEA SYMPHONY of his own at the time of his death!) Anyway I want to thank you for your sterling and expert reviews that will - no doubt - contribute in a major way to bringing about the international reevaluation of the global artist RVW most assuredly is. Thanks Dave. XXX
The greatest opening to a Hurwitz video, ever! I own the Spano and Slatkin recordings and like them both very much. Previn has amazing brass, but it's almost too sharp - a tad exhausting. Coming up with a 'dream' V-W cycle ought be fairly challenging. .
That was the greatest intro to a video EVER!!!
What an intro! Superb :)
Thanks! 😃
@@DavesClassicalGuide Great opening that had me instantly clicking 'like', but OW, my ears!
@@ThreadBomb Sorry!
@@DavesClassicalGuide That's okay. But I do wonder what your hearing is like after so many loud (musical) noises.
@@ThreadBomb It's not as bad as you think it is.
The composer himself proposes in the fourth movement to make a cut that in total would be to save three minutes of music. Pages 101 until 106 on the vocal score (free available on the pertrucci library). It's a shame that most of the conductors don't make this cut, perhaps thinking that it would diminish the transcendence of the movement but in reality I think that's what would give it the right timing so that it doesn't become too tedious. Thank you for the wonderful and funny review!
Perhaps the "O we can wait no longer" line wouldn't work so well ... 😀
I love your videos. Thank you so much for this. I’m a huge RVW fan and I’ve been hoping you would continue talks on the symphonies. I look forward to seeing you talk about the whole cycle! I have heard or own all the readily available recordings, but the Arman was unknown to me. I will check that out. I agree with you about the importance of good sound, and that the Hickox is immediately ruled out as a top contender because of its distant, dry sonics. I admit that I do, at least sometimes, have a soft spot for some of the more spacious readings, such as Handley‘s. Some spots just need the extra time and profundity. But overall I agree that this work must sound exciting, bracing, and fresh, and that even the profound moments must not be turgid. This is a piece that never sounds old, despite being written over 100 years ago. I love the Previn, but I’m surprised that you didn’t mention the missing cymbal crash at the great climax of the last movement, where the text says, “the true son of God.” There’s supposed to be a huge crash on the word “God,” but I think the percussionist got lost in the course of Previn’s tempo change. Anyway, it’s still a great recording nonetheless! Thank you again for your videos. I can’t wait till you do the whole RVW cycle!
If I specifically mentioned every bit of missing percussion in most recordings I'd never get through them. Thanks for pointing this out, though. I had really forgotten all about it.
Brilliant again, Dave!
The elder Adrian Boult!
Your recommendations remain as fresh, unpredictable and learned as ever!
Thank you. London Symphony next please!
The intro is legendary
An interesting thing about the Bournemouth Symphony/Paul Daniel recording is that the soprano soloist was not present at any of the recording sessions. She was 'added' later. I know because I'm playing on it. Thanks for all your videos - I watch them all!
Thanks for the inspiration. I have now bought a pair of cymbals and always have them handy, when I enter offices, churches, coffee shops etc. and sing: Behold, it's meeeeee! 😁🎵
Grand opening. Loved it! And the rest of it all, too. Thanks for this. (And yes, the Sea Symphony is my go- to test piece when trying out audio equipment - that, and the late Jean Guillou‘s Franck.)
Good choices for audio demos!
Ouch I was listening through headphones on high for that opening... I have to subscribe to your Tinnitus channel.
Oh that INTRO!! the best version! this chat was epic and so much fun again...had some laughing fits, thanks!!
WHAT an opening!! Love it!
Best opening to one of your videos ever
What a wonderful entree, thanks!
An ad for contraception interrupted just as you held up the Boult recording - I have never before seen that association with the work of Sir Adrian.
First time's a charm! I got rid of the ads.
I am liking this after 1.30 mins thanks for your spirit and appreciation.
The late Sixties - early Seventies was a great time to be in London musically. Boult and Previn, each with a great London orchestra at their command, going head to head as they recorded their VW cycles. My own preference was for Boult who had the advantage of being a near contemporary and great friend of the composer but Previn brought something different. He used to give a public performance of each symphony before recording it and, to date, it's the only time I have been able to hear A Sea Symphony live. As for Boult, I remember his 80th birthday concert, a festival of English music: Parry, Elgar and VW - rounded off by the Dam Busters March as an encore!
No mention of Boulez's complete Vaughan Williams symphonies on DG!! Thanks for another great chat!
No, but I'm preparing on talk on Celibidache's--43 CDs.
THANK YOU SO MUCH! When you said that the symphony had a "problem" I was hoping that you'd say the problem was the interminable and draggy finale. And indeed you did!
A great intro and a great set pf cymbals. Of the versions you discussed, I've heard and like the Handley and Slatkin performances ; I agree the Handley is let down by a sub-par recording.I listened to Haitink once and will not subject myself to that again. Blah. Really anxious to hear Manze. When I looked for Boult's recording I found it available as part of a 5 CD Warner set of all nine of Boult's EMI VW symphony recordings for less than $30 on Amazon. Set issued in 2012. Very much looking forward to it. Of Boult's VW symphonies I've only heard nos 2 (very good) & 4 ( decent but a bit tame).
I'm glad you like the Andrew Manze. His cycle contains some great performances that teach us something new about the music (or they did for me). No. 3, with the tenor soloist instead of the usual soprano, is interesting. 2, 8 and especially 9 are also very good. The Sea Symphony is, as you say, sharp and well recorded, though Spano / Atlanta remains my favorite. Time to check out the Boult!
I had the good fortune to be present at the recording sessions for the Previn performance, which, incidently, was recorded in the same venue as the all time classic Boult Stereo version. The standout moment in the Previn performance for me, is when Heather Harper sings the phrase 'Flount out visible as ever the various flags and ship signals' IN ONE BREATH! No other soprano soloist does it, and it makes the hairs on your body stand on end! Previn always managed to add a certain 'swing' to English music, which helps this piece, and Walton's 'Belshazzar's Feast', quite a lot. As an englishman, I have to point out that the 'Oxford Pronunciation' you refer to, went out with the ark, and over-emphasis of pronunciation is rare these days. One of the best performances I've heard of the work was Sakari Oramo's first concert as Principal conductor of the BBC Symphony Orchestra at the first night of the proms a few years ago. If ever you get the chance to hear this performance, it's well worth it. The Andrew Davis disc was actually recorded by an old friend of mine, who favours minimal micing techniques, which could be a contributing factor to why the opening cymbal crash sounds so good!
Best intro ever. I read some of the comments before watching, so I knew to turn the volume down before pressing "play". Agree about the Boult. I slso have Davis and Slatkin.
The Boult was a real treat to me in my teens. I just loved it! I also loved the Whitman poetry. And the box had a wonderful painting of a clipper ship riding the waves! The whole maryanne! Such glorious music. Your reference to Beethoven's Gloria is right on. The chorus in this performances is to die for.
Came to hear Vernon handley royal liverpool. Gorgeous chorus--so clear and so beautiful. Conducting so passionate. Soloists excellent. Astonishing performance of a miraculous musical composition. Rapturous.
Thanks. Another excellent and entertaining video. I agree with your choice. In fact that Boult RVW symphony set is stunning throughout. His 'London' symphony - best one out there. Andrew Davis and Leonard Slatkin; two conductors for whom I have more and more admiration, the more I hear their recordings.
Absolutely agree about Boult/LPO. As you say, everything about it is "right". Exactly the way the work should sound. And the RETURN of the opening D Major passage near the end of the first movement is overpowering, soaring, sublimely beautiful. The first section of the Finale..also unbeatable. And yes, YOUR opening to this talk is also unbeatable, in its own "unique" way. LR
Any chance you’ll do a RVW: London Symphony (no.2) review? I confess, I may be salivating for that one. ☺️
Sure, eventually.
Yes. That would be excellent. It's one of those works that I 'collect' - not EVERY version, but objectively. Like so much of RVW's work, there is darkness and sometimes even terror lurking within. I would love it if more European orchestras performed/recorded his work. Imagine the VPO, BPO, for example. I'll stop. I'm drifting!
Would love to see this one I've conducted it quite a few times (1913 and final versions) and would enjoy Dave's thoughts. Such a lovely work and enjoyable for all involved.
Shock ! BBC Radio 3 'Building a Library' recommended a non-british one (05/04/2024). The episode should be available on BBC sounds.
Geraldine McGreevy (soprano)
Tommi Hakala (baritone)
MDR Rundfunkchor
MDR Sinfonieorchester
Howard Arman (conductor)
Querstand VKJK0731
Do any of the Redbook CD versions compete with the sonics of the EMI LP version? The latter is amazing! What an impression it made on a youngster!
My "favorite" is the Slatkin because of the best balance with the organ. I agree about "mushy" cymbals, so I made my own "version" by mixing in a great cymbal sample I have to get the power you speak of at the beginning. I also sped up the 3rd movement (just a tad!) and the first 8 minutes or so of the final movement. OK, I know this is "cheating" but we have the tools today to tinker when needed, and tinker I did, LOL. Great series, David. Keep 'em coming.
Sir, are you aware that you are opening here a new musical venue? From now on we could hurry up everything Klempere-ish, slowing down everyting Toscainni-sh, and deleting everythin Norington-ish. This boggles the mind!
The Boult was the first performance I heard back in the late 70ties and it always stayed in my heart. It's the standard performance for me. But I have to say, I liked the Haitink as well, although he conducts it as if he is conducting Bruckner.
The Rozhdestvensky definitely surprised me; I hope I can locate it. I really dig some of his ballet recordings although, as you've mentioned, they can sound brittle.
I would be interested in a video discussing the downfall of the classical music recording industry. Was it solely the Napster/Apple shift or was there more to the story?
Best introduction ever!
I love this piece, thanks for your recommendations. I wonder what you think about the 1965 Malcolm Sargent Proms recording with combined BBC and New Zealand forces on BBC live (I think it is deleted, but easy to get hold of). It is the fastest performance I have heard - just over 60 minutes - and it is really thrilling, always in motion, never standing still, even in slow sections. The sound is not ideal, but quite decent 60s live stereo, chorus and soloists are splendid, and the only major setback is that there is a cut in the last movement, omitting the section of "O thou transcendent" completely...certainly a version I enjoy listening to!
I'm sorry but I have not heard the Sargent, but I will take your word for it!
You had me at Sheila Armstrong. Actually, I've collected most of the recordings you mention in your review and I keep coming back to the Bolt recording. I agree. It's still the best.
Dear Mr Hurwitz.
What do you think about Boult's recordings of all the symphonies of Vaughan Williams?
Best wishes.
Mostly excellent, but a bit tame in 4 and 6.
I sang this (twice!) with a community orchestra ... not of the highest caliber, but fun to perform anyway. One distinct memory I have of one of our dress rehearsals with orchestra was the unfortunate novice percussionist assigned to play (of all things!) cymbals. He couldn't get his counting or his cues right, so the opening of the symphony was "Behold, the... CRASH!!!!". (The sad part is that I brought it up to the conductor at the interval of the rehearsal, and he had not even noticed that's what happened...)
I have had so many similar experiences. We need to have lunch sometime...
@@DavesClassicalGuide My favourite community orchestra experience: Bartók, Concerto for Orchestra, opening fanfare of the finale - it was only then that the conductor noticed one of the trumpeters read their part in B instead of C. Literally, a great second of music-making.
I'm late to the party here but I have to put in a word for Whitman as a poet FOR MUSIC. He was a great music lover and opera critic/fan and his outsize larger than life texts are perfect for music. As RVW, Delius and Hindemith to name three very different composers knew well. I doubt Emily ever heard an opera in her life. But she does have Copland.
The mention of the Missa Solemnis reminded me that in his Christmas oratorio 'Hodie', RVW directly quotes from the Missa Solemnis there too. For his DMus at Cambridge, RVW studied classical masses, I believe (and produced his own - it's available on Albion Records as 'A Cambridge Mass', it's kind of a pastiche, not classic RVW). Sea Symphony is an early work, and Hodie is a late work so it's quite poignant that he does this if, indeed, the 'following' is as you say a reference to Beethoven (and I tend to agree with you)
UPDATE: this video inspired me purchase the Rozh. RVW Melodiya cycle which I remember fondly but do not own. You’ll never guess what rare purveyor of Russian recordings I got it from - Walmart’s website!
First off I know little of Whitman‘s poetry but find that what is used here lends appropriate support, IMO, to what I feel is Vaughan-Williams first masterwork. The Boult recording from around 1970 was the first I heard but the one I own is with Leonard Slatkin’s interpretation some 12 years after his LIVE performance in Minnesota where I sang in the chorus. There is a fair amount of very enjoyable work for the chorus & a real pleasure to be a part of. The soprano soloist for the Minnesota performance was Benita Valente whose fine work is also featured on Slatkin‘s 1993 recording. The great English baritone, Thomas Allen is on the recording as well but unfortunately not in the Minnesota performance. Enough said there! Although I was familiar with THE SEA SYMPHONY from the fine Boult recording I was not prepared for that amazing opening: BEHOLD THE SEA in our performance. A story I heard that may be apocryphal was that when he first experienced that same moment in conducting the piece Vaughan-Williams said the sheer impact of BEHOLD THE SEA practically knocked him off the podium. Totally understandable! Still the more reflective moments in THE SEA SYMPHONY are just as magical & indeed moving. My favorite occurs three or so minutes into the section #4 entitled THE WANDERERS. Rather than numbered movements Vaughan-Williams used textual titles in place of traditional symphonic ones. A wonderful work indeed.
Great review - I have all of those except GR, but a fantastic analysis of the work and I pretty much agree on all the modern version. I had the pleasure of hearing Hadley conduct it in concert where the winds and brass were beautifully balanced and it was quick. The recording is a pale shadow of that and IIRC EMI had to reissue it as the first release was even worse. Wish someone could spruce it up. With you on Boult and Previn. I must now invest in the Russian box... thanks
The Sea Symphony has a special place in my heart, particularly the second movement. My hometown in the north east of Scotland (NOT Britain 😉) lies on the coast between long stretches of beach to the south and miles of sandstone cliffs to the north, with a beautiful path running along the top. At night I used to cycle to a bench out there by the path and watch the stars and listen to the waves. ‘On the Beach At Night, Alone’ absolutely nails the feeling of those moments. And despite his broadness, I do love the Haitink, especially because of that movement, although I do agree that the finale feels like a sprightly glacier.
I heard the Boult for the first time this year and was gobsmacked by it. What a wonderful recording!
I heard Manze conduct several VW symphonies when he and the BBCSSO performed all of them over two seasons. I have to say I was a bit underwhelmed by his Sea Symphony. Admittedly, I haven’t heard the Onyx, but from what I’ve heard and read, my ideal VW symphony cycle would be the Handley performances with the Onyx sound.
I agree in liking Haitink though I wouldn't disagree with the final choice of Boult. But in fairness if you start out a review of a choral symphony by frankly admitting you hate the words then there will be an issue over some aspects of the work including some of the more problematic comments over the choir and pronunciation. But it was an interesting and with reservations useful overview.
You are astonishingly harsh on Haitink - although your comments are perhaps understandable when you say later on that no-one listens to this piece for the soloists. Well, maybe you should when they're as good as Felicity Lott: I don't think I've ever heard a more thrilling sound than her soaring over the entire richly-engineered LPO at the climax of Haitink's first movement - no other soprano comes close. The subsequent movements on that recording never grabbed me as much, but I'm not sure they are at the same level of musical inspiration as the first. But the sonic experience that Haitink delivers in that first movement is one of the most thrilling things in my CD collection, and I was just dumbfounded to hear you describe the recording as "dull".
It IS dull, excruciatingly so, and ten seconds of Felicity Lott doesn't make it less so.
Totally agree John. The LPO play stupendously for their former chief. This recording is anything but dull! I find Daves material interesting and often stimulating but wish he wouldn’t put down Haitink and (in other repertoire) Abbado quite so viciously. The Haitink series deserves to be heard at the very least.
This was indeed a wonder to BEHOLD!!!
Back in the day (if I may use that hackneyed phrase) -- by which I mean the early/ mid-1970s BCD (Before CD) -- Previn and the stereo Boult versions were pretty much the only two recordings that were readily available. (Indeed, if the Penguin Guide was anything to go by, Boult and Previn were just about the only conductors who had recorded all the VW symphonies at the time.) It's interesting to note that these respective recordings of A Sea Symphony were made only a couple of years apart -- Boult in 1968, Previn in 1970 -- and that both were recorded in Kingsway Hall, which certainly added to their sonic appeal. I'm not surprised that both recordings have stood the test of time. For what it's worth (not much to anyone else, but obviously something to me), they're still my two Sea Symphony recordings of choice. However, I would not discount Boult's earlier recording. Yes, it's mono--but it's John Culshaw/Kenneth Wilkinson/Decca/Kingsway Hall mono, and Boult in 1953 is more dynamic than Boult in 1968.
Now I'm off to listen to the opening bars of all three recordings to refresh my memory and to compare and contrast. (And perhaps Spano/Atlanta too, which I have knocking around somewhere, along with Haitink -- I know, I know!)
~ John Drexel
And I don't particularly like my Sea Symphony too fast. I tried Spano and Daniels, but in the end, they rung hollow for me. I guess I like my Whitman a bit on the mystical side. On the other hand, I absolutely love Yvonne Kenny as soprano soloist, so I will still advocate for Bryden Thomson on Chandos (at just under 66 minutes). The LSO sounds great too; the chorus is not my favourite though. VW's Sea Symphony is the one work that I love exploring a variety of recordings; there seems to be so much room for interpretation, whether we like their choices or not. Thanks for the survey!
Sure thing. I do think Thompson sort of dies in the finale.
Incidentally, when I want to listen to the Sea Symphony, I often pull up the 2013 BBC Proms concert on TH-cam
I thought Oramo really raced through the work.
I have the adrian boult archival version. I wonder how this would sound with a modern quality. Didnt even know there was symbols at the beginning.
Who else but RVW could set the word "Taciturn" to music so well.
I first heard this on the way to work one morning, ending up late because I couldn't leave the parking lot until the first movement was over. I almost immediately bought the recording (the Boult stereo on LP) and played the hell out of it. It's still one of my favorite symphonies. I'll have to differ about the fourth movement, though: if there are dead spots, they're more than compensated for by the life that propels through the piece from beginning to end. Does it matter if the words are by Whitman or anyone else as long as the music makes them work? (I mean, if you really want to hear bad poetry, try Schiller's "Ode to Joy.") Quibbles aside, I always enjoy David's perspective on classical music and his refreshing irreverence as an antidote to much of the stuffiness that so often surrounds it.
Of course it doesn't matter if it's Whitman. That was the point.
@@DavesClassicalGuide Now that you put it that way...
I think some British critics think boredom equals profundity. I am loving your VW videos, you are right about the last movement! I like Andrew Davis a lot, he does "mystery" very well. I never understood why Gramophone was so down on him while praising Handley and especially Haitink to the skies.
I'm with you on the Brit music press attitude to Andrew Davis. They were particularly negative about his recording of the London Symphony, which I think is one of the best versions. Somewhere along the line he must have upset someone in the hierarchy.
The opening was golden.
Thanks for another entertaining video.
I love this piece. Love it love it love it. I agree about the finale but who cares? It’s an early masterpiece from a great composer. (Interestingly in the score there is a large suggested edit by the composer, but I would argue it takes out the best bit so I’m glad people ignore it)
Elder’s recording just left me baffled and disappointed because I hoped for more.
But Haitink - well let’s agree to disagree here (I know you’re nodding sagely at that). It was the recording that started me on my RVW love affair. I’ve played this full blast on repeat, driving through the Scottish Highlands and you might say it’s imprinted on me, but I just find it so thrilling.
Agree on Manze and Slatkin - don’t know Previn’s (yet) but I enjoy his other RVWs and I think non-British conductors offer less reverence for the composer and more insight to the music. However the Boult has passed me by but I’ve just downloaded it and will listen to it toot sweet, as they don’t say in France.
Mind you I have to correct you on something: there’s no such thing as ‘British English’ - we have completely different accents every few miles (my Yorkshire accent would get me laughed at by people from Sheffield only 20 miles away - and I come from York, where we invented the bloody thing!). I think you’re talking about ‘Received Pronunciation’ which is only heard in very small circles (think The Queen) and for some reason by British actors in American TV programmes, presumably because the producers tell them to speak like that instead of authentically. You won’t hear that nonsense in Yorkshire. And definitely not here in Glasgow 🤣.
Whatever, I digress - but Whitman read by someone from the English West Country probably sounds more West Hills, New York than if read by someone from Dallas, Texas.
(Also, yes, foreigners do find our attempts at singing in their languages to be quite funny - maybe you just have politer friends than me!)
Well, I know all about British regional accents, but there is British English for artistic purposes, and especially in criticizing the pronunciation of foreigners. Otherwise, I think I sort of said much the same thing as you, and I appreciate your comments.
Hello again. Just a point of clarification, please: Sir Adrian Boult recorded this work twice. The first time was with The London Philharmonic in glorious mono sound, the second time with the Philharmonia Orchestra in glorious stereo sound. You mention Boult with the London Philharmonic "in stereo." so I'm not sure which of the two recordings you mean. Thanks.
He means the stereo one.
Yes, I do. Apologies for the error. When I think "Boult" I usually just assume LPO.
@@DavesClassicalGuide Thanks, Mr. H! I LOVE your reviews!
Boult's late 60s stereo recording is with the LPO, not the Philharmonia. I've owned it since 1970 on a two LP Angel box set. The initial CD transfer of it was very mediocre, no match for the sumptuous sounding LPs (yes, there were some good Angels). I've no idea if it's been redone or if EMI (now Warner) just keeps trotting out the same transfer.
@@alanmillsaps2810 You are 100% correct. I am the one who is confused, as weren't Boult's other stereo remakes with the New Philharmonia? I know Nos. 3 and 5 are most definitely with the New Philharmonia....
I agree with everything you say here. "Dead spots", yep...but some very beautiful parts. Uugh, 70+ for this work is too long..yucky. #1 is near the bottom on my RVW symphonies list.
I’m so glad you mentioned the Rozhdestvensky recording. Perverse though it may be, it’s probably my single favorite Sea Symphony, filled with very rich textures but still with lively pacing. Not being able to hear the chorus is no negative in my book, and I share your disdain for those who might say only an Anglophone orchestra can do this piece. If one’s primary goal in listening to a choral symphony is mocking the accents of the singers, one is a dolt.
LOL! Behold the Boult... LOL!!! Great review BTW. I agree, Boults version is excellent and yes the Hickox version has this Virgin dull muffled blurry dark sound - I had to remaster it. IMO Hickox's version is good.
A Sea Symphony is the answer of the British Empire to Wagner and yes it works... load the guns and shell...
@David Hurwitz Interesting comment about the cymbals in British orchestras BUT I don't agree at all with you (and you won't agree with me) : they use very large cymbals indeed. The LSO have a pair of 24" Symphonic French Zildjians ; the LPO a pair of two 24" Ride Zildjians. I know Steve Quigley of the Royal Philharmonic almost never uses a diameter under 20". I'm not a fan of what you like, a big crash only, but I know it's the sound of most American (and not only) orchestras. What I enjoy is, quite the reverse, what they do, a big "spashhhhhhhhhhhhh" which blends with the orchestral textures and lasts long with. along decay. To be honest, I must add that (although French), I enjoy the sound of British percussion sound (I studied timpani privately with Kurt-Hans Goedicke, the former long-time timpanist of the London Symphony Orchestra) and I don't understand why you always dismiss the VW Bryden Thomson cycle, which is IMHO far superior to Previn, despite the live acoustics of Chandos recordings. There would be a lot of things to say about Thomson, who was beloved by all the orchestras he used to work with. In the Sea Symphony, the LSO Chorus also sounds magnificent : where on earth is it possible to hear such voice colours, even in the other British played versions ? With my orchestra, we gave in 2004 the French premiere of VW "London symphony" (according to the result of an investigation made by the SACEM which gets the copyrights), that I played on timpani. All that said, I really like your channel and agree with your choices and comments most of the time. Keep up posting !
First, there is no standard size cymbal in American orchestras. My useful comparison is not an American orchestra at all, but the Vienna Philharmonic, which uses a rather small set of hand cymbals that have a terrific sound. And I do not like "a big crash only." I dislike those splashy cymbals because, as you say, they don't stand out sufficiently, sound miserable in rhythmic passages, are often double-stuck, and you can't tell that they have a long decay because, as you say, the tone blends in and you don't hear it at all. As to Thomson, I dismiss his RVW cycle less because of him than on account of the sound--I have always granted it it's finer moments interpretively (esp, Nos. 4, 5, 8 and 9), so your contention that I "always dismiss" him in RVW is just not true.
@@DavesClassicalGuide I'll listen to your comments on the other single VW symphonies with pleasure ; in fact I was referring to this review and the one about the whole symphonies cycle. Re : the Vienna Philharmonic cymbals are indeed rather small and thick, but I was never happy with this cymbal sound. For the legendary Ring under Solti, the orchestra borrowed a big pair from Covent Garden through Decca (I don't remember if it was a 22" or 24"), so sometimes they need something larger. Anyway... different taste !
@@porcepic44 Yep!
Much enjoyed your review, David, rant on English pronunciation included. Amazed you didn’t start with, “Today a rude, brief recitative”.
The irony is, what used to be called (maybe still is) BBC English, is a distant relative of the pronunciation adopted by most of the English-speaking world - Americans, Canadians, Aussies, Kiwis, South Africans, not to mention Irish, Welsh, Scots and the major part of England itself. English choral bodies are taught to use it for sake of clarity but that ‘clarity’ only registers with a certain type of English person, to the rest it’s just plain phoney and when you hear a chorus of sailors, fishermen, country bumkins or just plain folks enunciating BBC English in a Britten opera it sounds ludicrous. Even those old Pinewood Studios WWII movies had only the officers talking with plums in their mouths. Other ranks invariably spoke a species of Cockney.
As for English criticism of the pronunciation of non-native English speakers, you’re absolutely right. For a portion of the world’s population notoriously unilingual (I include all English speakers in this), we’ve got a nerve! Particularly attempting the Latin languages, we struggle to put it mildly.
By the way, I'm originally English. And my favourite Sea Symphony is a toss up between Handley an the old Boult mono, in which Isobel Baillie's pronunciation of "limitless" sounds happily North American.
What a fabulous intro
Thanks!
I totally agree with you about Walt Whitman - it only seems to prove that any wild ramblings can be called poetry - ha ha - give me a Shakespeare sonnet any day
I agree about the Hickox recording on Chandos--the sound is a big let-down. HOWEVER....HOWEVER..........Hickox's first recording, issued on Virgin Classics, has everything that is missing from the Chandos: Vivid playing, a superb chorus, and impactful sonics.
Sure, but go find it at a reasonable price--and with so many others at least as good or better, honestly, does it matter?
Wait, what's wrong with Bryden Thompson outside of the last movement?
Nothing has to be "wrong" simply to note that other versions are better.
@@DavesClassicalGuide It could be my bias towards certain instruments or my audio setup, but it seems that acoustically when comparing excepts from Bryden Thompson, Sir Adrian Boult (the warner one), and Andrew Manze, I seem to always gravitate more towards the more pronounced brass and percussion section from Bryden's version.
Mind if you point me into the right direction as to the justification behind your ranking when it comes to listening these scores?
@@examine1525 No, I don't need to justify my choices and you don't need to justify yours. Enjoy as you please!
I'm with you on the English language criticism 100%. I've read very condescending reviews of performances by the BBC Music Magazine in that regard. In this international music environment we enjoy, we should be happy when other cultures perform non-native language music. I've never heard this symphony and am preparing to listen to the stereo Adrian Boult!
Best intro ever!!!!! 😂😂😂😂
And I thought myself the only non-russian guy to know Rozhdestvenskys Vaughan-Williams-cycle... I think it pretty good and refreshing rough and non-english.
Hahahahaha! Best intro ever!
Happy to see this review--it's one of my favorite pieces. But I have to chuckle, as I disagree with pretty much all your conclusions, and with much of the rationale by which you reach them! The versions you dismiss out of hand are among my favorites--the idea that Bernard Haitink can be set aside is highly tenuous IMO; liking the piece but dismissing Walt Whitman is like saying "I love Beethoven's keyboard sonatas but I don't really care for the piano;" I think slow and stately is appropriate for the piece, and being in a hurry spoils everything; I'd say the minute count of a movement matters not a whit; I think the soloists--much more than the capturing of the cymbal crashes--absolutely make or break the piece. I'm nobody, and my opinion counts for nothing. I'm just a listener. But it seems worth reminding people that this is all very subjective and they kinda have to familiarize themselves with the piece and sample the different versions themselves. Anyway, thanks for the discussion!
OK, your analogy is all off, and I find your taste bizarre, but you're certainly entitled to it and that's perfectly fine. If slow and dull (and poorly engineered) is your thing, then go for it! And by the way, spare us the false modesty. If you really think that you're nobody and your opinion counts for nothing, then keep it to yourself. Otherwise, feel free to join the conversation.
Hi David! If you have an aversion to Whitman, try Delius sea drift; incredibly moving.
It didn't help.
Yes, and yes! Boult (stereo), Previn and Slatkin, and Rozhdestvensky as the wild card.
But what about the first appearance of the cymbals? According to the full score (as far as I know there is only one, the Stainer and Bell) it is not a cymbal clash at all, but a cymbal roll! And there is a note from VW: "The roll on the Cymbals to be made with two soft Timpani sticks". It starts ff but there is a diminuendo to p before the end of the bar. This all seems rather like the swoosh on which you poured such scorn. We're so used to hearing a clash that anything else sounds wrong, but maybe it isn't.
Certainly Vaughan Williams knew what he wanted from the cymbals. In A London Symphony, for example, he variously has them clashed, rolled with soft sticks or side drum sticks, and even (in the Scherzo) rubbed together.
Sorry to disappoint, but you are reading the score incorrectly. It is a demented convention of printed English score notation (some of them) during this period that the bass drum and cymbal parts are notated on the same staff, with "BD" on top of "Cym"--but the actual notes are written the other way, with the cymbal part above the bass drum. So what RVW wrote was a big cymbal crash and a bass drum roll beneath, diminuendo, which makes fare more sense. This is what is played on every recording I listed. You can also confirm this by looking at hundreds of other scores where there is no possible doubt what is actually intended despite the confusing identification of the instruments in question. It's very silly, but that's the way they did it and it's one of those things you just have to figure out as you go.
@@DavesClassicalGuide you are right of course, mea culpa. I should have followed a bit more of the score before rushing into print. Of course the cymbals are the upper note and the bass drum the lower, but I allowed myself to be fooled by the words on the first page about the cymbal roll, which actually doesn't happen until 7 before L. My apologies for doubting you.
One slight curiosity is that the very first cymbal note is notated as an E in the bass clef but thereafter as an F - this must be a misprint.
0:10 you scared the shit out of me
I got to do this as a sophomore in college. It was a JOY to sing. I had Paul Daniel and got rid of it because of the bad sound. I thought Spano had great sound and a great chorus but it doesn't have the emotional umph that others have. Goerke is fantastic, but Polegato is undersized compared to her. If you have Goerke, you need baritone with more cowbell. Previn is a joy. JSQ has a real way with the words. No one has ever done a better 2nd movement than he. I love Slatkin's entire set of the symphonies, but it's a fun and stunning peformance, and Benita Valente and Thomas Allen match each other in vocal weight in the way the Spano's don't. I do love boult too, but both JSQ and Allen are better than John Carrol Case.
That intro! Hahahah
You are a pisser - love you. A.STECKLER
I really looooove when foreigners sing Villa-Lobos 5th “Bachianas”. It’s so amusing. Much better than we natives. Specially in the first movement middle section - the poem is TOTAL GARBAGE and nobody should really understand what’s being sung.
You should hear me do it: every word crystal clear--by the way, is it supposed to be in Portuguese?
Perfect and clear pronunciation, total understanding of the words - oh, no, please don't ruin a perfectly fine piece of music!
I would not have dismissed Boult's first recording with John Cameron and Isobel Baillie as quickly as Dave does here. It has an urgency and fire that Boult was not quite able to reproduce in the 1970s. I would still urge younger listeners who love this work to seek it out.
Younger listeners? You mean those who like mediocre sonics?
I must add this: I just listened to the Brabbins recording again - you're right, it's not really good. But the cymbal at the beginning - well, I think I know, what Brabbins had in mind. He imagined this moment as a great wave breaking on the sea shore, and this sound is really less a crash than a swoosh. Nevertheless, the recording is not convincing. .
He had no opinion about the cymbal. It's just the way they play it. There are too many other instances of the same sound in the wrong place in London orchestras to give the conductor any credit.
I have the Boult, Previn, Handley A. DAVIS. I rather like the Handley but I must hear the Manze. Onyx have produced some really good recordings.
slatkin sea symphony with GREAT SOLOISTS, I must say is the ONLY performance that makes TOTAL SENSE OF this GREATEST of symphonies for orchestra and chorus. MR HURWITZ u must relisten to this masterpiece of a performance. ABSOLUTELY CONVINCING--and GORGEOUS.
No, actually, I don't. I think it's excellent, but I prefer Boult.
well. i do remember from 20 y ago the boult opening crescendo as being absolutely glorious. will have to relisten if i can find the darn cd
@@DavesClassicalGuide
what i noted about the slatkin was that the singing of the soloists were powerful and actually so meshed with both the underlying dramatic meaning of the words and the melodic and orchestral drama of the music. so the music is consistent with the words. revealing how great this work us and can be. other recordings i find the words are sung with not much meaning or effect and often with no meaning. don't remember the vocals in boult that well other than the beach at night being convincing. but boy, true the best opening sequence of movement one--as if you are launched and immersed into a giant engulfing ocean--indeed!
True about the British critics sneering at foreign singers' pronunciation--much Brit class prejudice, as they exhibit with their own people who speak with beyond-greater-London, un-plummy diction.
Yes. I've not been aware of any ordinary English music lover sneering about non-English singers' pronunciation. Quite the opposite. We know their English is so much better than our French, Spanish, Finnish or whatever. As for non-English conductors and orchestras, I for one love to hear what they do with English music. Our dull war-horses suddenly become the vibrant pieces of music their composers intended.
This is the one VW symphony I don’t play, cant stand it! Don’t like the Ode to Joy either! I do love the instrumental movements though! For me symphonies are ORCHESTRAL. I love choral music, Messiah, Mozart Requiem, Masses. Etc. am I mad? Lol.
I don't always agree with you, but I find your reviews very interesting. It would of course be even more interesting if you had a partner by your side who also does not (always) agree with you and with whom you could argue. However, there is one thing that I find pity: Why don't you more often play music excerpts from the recordings that you are discussing? If you only play excerpts, that should be allowed (fair use), right?
That's it exactly. Thank you Mr. P. In fact, you run the risk of having your channel pulled entirely, but I am making progress and now a pretty large list of labels has given me permission to use excerpts. It's ridiculous, and tedious, and everyone has a different policy, but I'm working on it..
As to the partner issue, sorry MM, this is my playpen and while I hope to have some joint discussions, pandemic permitting, I will still be largely running the show!
Please redo the intro and add ‘himself!’
...I was going to say "myself" but the reverb got to me.
OMG! You could have at least been in tune! ROFL
You mean I wasn't?
Comments on Haitink recording are not credible music criticism. One doesn’t have to laud it as a ‘best version’, sure but to trash it is ridiculous.
No, if it's bad or boring then it's perfectly fine to trash it. The fact that you may disagree with the trashing doesn't render it illegitimate.