Infinity Faction Tier List - Post-Fireteam Update
ฝัง
- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 2 ต.ค. 2024
- Join two people who both think paying attention to tier lists in Infinity is a bad idea, seriously attempting to fairly create a tier list in Infinity.
Big thanks to Nick from Loss of Lieutenant for sitting down with me and doing what amounts to a short review of every single faction in the entire game.
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You can find Loss of Lieutenant at Facebook or on Podbean, at:
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Tier list ranking criteria: what makes a good or bad faction?
1. list versatility: how varied are the lists it can make? Or is it a monobuild faction?
2. scenario game: can it accommodate varied scenarios easily or does it have to build to solve scenarios like countermeasures?
3. table game: can the faction play on a variety of tables, wide or open, complex or straightforward?
4. mechanical uniqueness: does the faction do something that other factions can't?
5. mechanical power: does the faction just have strong for cost (or weak for cost) profiles?
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The Avatar hubris story made me laugh way too hard.
Good list. However, id argue on Ariadna, Aleph and Haqq being an S tier. First of all, Vanilla Ariadna still has an acces to Bearpods and chasseurs, Uxia. This are the units able to win you games by thensekves being a huge roadblock to you opponent. If opponent ignores then he can suffer great damage, if opponent tries to go aftet those units, they can soak its orders pretty great.
Aleph. New Fireteam rule made, atalanta almost untouchable in reactive turn. Price wise she is cheaper than any link team. Atalanta+smoke combo still there. Achilles V2 even better as alpha strike piece now. Dart, andromeda also re the pieces who can shift game in your favor. And there are more S tier units in this army.
Lastly, Haqquislam. Fidays, Al hawwas, Daylami, Barids are well-known S tiers units. Fidays do what they do best(hunting valuable units). Daylami is a very cheap roadblock. Barids are just ultimative profile which can accomplish a lot. Oh nd haqq has its own super fast "Chimera" aka Zuleyka. This unit can do crazy amount of damage on the turn you let it go. Profile is overbuffed and she can kill almost anything in CQC including tags.
Good job.
I've been playing ISS since the fireteam update, took third in a local tournament with them, so I've got some notes about your assessment on them if you're curious. Regarding their place on the tier list: You're generally correct. I would place them mid-high B, possibly A depending on meta, and mission assessment.
Pros:
- ISS's ability to actually complete objectives is remarkably powerful -- the Zhanying hacker is carrying the perfect kit for half the Classifieds, and the Sophotect handles the other half.
- ALEPH Support fireteam (and mixing with CGs) does as well as you suspect it does. The flex on it is very strong and gives you a powerful KHD option from the Deva. For the longest time I ran a CG Monitor + MSV Deva + MI Adil; it makes for a very powerful roaming haris that covers your second link while they complete objectives.
- Kuang Shi need no introduction, we already know they're great and they form the backbone of the army's Core link. Wildcarding in a Crane still works, and Xi's Number 2 lets you slingshot Kuangs into clusters of enemy troops.
- Zhian fireteams and the second Haris gives the army some really really good ways to use a lot of troops that were just not great before Raveneye. 22 points to get your Hsien HMG into a haris is barely a tax considering how much value CSUs bring on their own.
- Their midfield is better than people expect. Ninja KHD is well documented, but the SMG Hacker is on par, or better than, TO hackers in other factions.
- Su Jian and Hsiens are pillars of the faction. The Multi MMR Hsien has the perfect kit to go objective hunting while remaining well protected by CSU templates, Xi's Madtraps, or Zhanying's 6th Sense, and Suzie's never bad. The shotgun will flatten links, the Spitfire will find a gap into your opponent's DZ and start sweeping their order pool.
Cons:
- You have little to no solid ARO. ISS's defensive presence is almost entirely within its DZ; templates are everywhere, MadTraps are plentiful, you've got decent DZ repeater coverage and a 6th Sense hacker with a linkable Tinbot-6, but shooting defense has you leaning on Lunah, TR Bots, and maybe Dakinis.
- Zhians are flexible, but most of your utility troops are 20-30 point single wound BS12 guys with low armor. The actual mechanical strength in ISS is at the top end with Hsiens and Su Jian, and the bottom with Kuang Shi and CSUs. There's an incredibly brittle midrange tier in ISS where the guys who will be doing the objectives can't afford to take a hit. Thankfully they all have templates, so good positioning can alleviate that with trade potential.
- Sophotect is almost an auto include. I've made lists without her, but I'm constantly wishing I had her. For her price she's an outstanding bit of redundancy in an army that hits the slot cap very quickly, but because of the previous point, she runs into the Haqq problem of having a bunch of single wound guys waiting for a Doctor.
- Many of the things mentioned in your video about other B-tier factions stands here. I would argue a Su Jian is a light TAG in its own right (if it had 3 wounds instead of NWI we'd probably call it WORSE than it currently is, I think), and its mid-20s/low-30s point cost troops lack mechanical strength that's made up with link flexibility.
Overall a solid high B, low A faction that's incredibly fun to build lists for. I spent hours after Raveneye dropped just putting together the funniest, oddest, most gratifying harises I could, and it feels great that all the various bits and bobs of an early design Infinity sectorial finally get a place.
All that aside, good video -- watched the whole way through and you provided solid reasoning for your choices; already sparked some good debate in the various channels I'm in so I'm glad of the content.
Good writeup - ISS are definitely a faction I have only really a cursory experience with post-Fireteam update, and what you've said tracks well.
Wow, I remember when infinity only had 10 armies.
How times have changed.
You too huh
I kinda does have 10 armies?
I've been a PanO player for some time and the Squalo duo lists brings them to either high A or bottom of S. The fireteam options are frankly absurd. Pre-changes I would have put them mid to high B probably
What do you feel duos the best with the Squalo?
@@Hey_Its_MrSteve The strongest duos are Squalo and knight of Santiago, karhu engineer, and motorized bounty hunter. Karhu engineer and bulleteer is also very strong.
A TAG with Hacking -6, bts 9 and a killer hacker nearby is so powerful.
@@mickevans6205 I think I overlooked this in the review and you're right. These are some very tasty duos. I tentatively think YJ's ones are stronger, but they're less transformative. A su jian duo'd with an NCO or tac aware mode is just *more* su jian. A squalos with a tinbot killer hacker close combat fighter running alongside it is a different kettle of fish.
It’s almost a year since you published this video. Any chances for another one with updated take?
And by the way thank you for this one - it’s very informative and interesting👍
It's distinctly possible. :)
I am curious about putting Sval ahead of White Company. Since Karhu can no longer pure link in Sval, it seems to me that they have basically equal utility in both factions.
Apart from that unit, White Co has smoke, hacking device plus, linkable pitchers, linkable hiadao, guilang, tigers, and ava 2 beast hunters. While Sval has the Jotum...
I absolutely could be missing something, but White Co seems like it has so many more problem solvers, while only sacrificing a little firepower.
I think you could easily move them around as a matter of personal taste - like I mentioned in the episode, if this was a list of factions I personally was good at playing rather than factions I felt were good in general, there'd be some radical shifts. But in this case it's pretty much down to the comparison between the Jotum and the Guija, with a very light dash of Svalarheima having surprisingly good and easily overlooked heavy infantry post-fireteam update.
I personally rate most of the unique elements WhiteCo bring (smoke, hacking device plus... not so much guilang, which are fine but very expensive) very highly, but they're a faction with a game plan that has a lot of baked-in fragility. A large portion of learning to play WhiteCo is learning how much you need to hide in reactive turn, and how to run a defence despite that.
Question: for someone new looking to assemble an army, obviously not all units created back when are available to purchase today. Looking to build a US ariadna army, but units like desperados are slim to none on the market. Are these tiers of what is available to get nowadays or are these tiers taking into account all models ever created for a faction type thing? Just curious if the current crop of US ariadnans would still hold the place you guys created or be knocked down a spot or two. Still going to be a US army regardless but just curious.
No, availability didn't affect the rankings. Infinity is an extremely proxy friendly game - for example, Tohaa aren't available, but I play them using a bunch of kitbashed combined army Fractaa and Maakrep models (who are technically tohaa, just fighting for the combined army).
If you're playing USARF snd you need Desperados, you could potentially use models like Haqqislam bikers instead and it world be pretty reasonable. :)
I'm not sure that Kosmoflot is above Vanilla Ariadna. The question that you need to answer is, is +1B, +1/+3BS on Unknown Ranger or Volkolak fireteam worth more or less than all the things you get in Vanilla. Including Col Strategos 1, better bikes, better options for every specialist, and unpredictable camo and parachutist options. I'm not sure it is because you still get all the same models as Kosmoflot and then some.
The major draw to Kosmoflot for me these days is actually three-man teams of patchers and 9pt varangians. It's very close assault but seems super dangerous.
But yes it's a very close call.
@@R0bertShepherd Yes! 4 dice on 18's w/ Vulkan is juicy.
OSS for the win
Coming to this video late, I played about 15-20 games with TAK after the fireteams change. Frankly the Vetkazak HMG link was a staple for me. I started every list with them (Vetkazak + Frontovik APsniper or Engineer + 2 medic line kazaks + normal line kazak).
Needless to say it was very strong, especially outside of TTS where you can get longer shots due to lack of terrain at our local meta. Also needless to say it got very stale after my first 30-40 games.
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Since the nerf I have been using a 5 man line kazak core as a stationary cheap sniper castle, and been doing more work with Scouts, spetsnaz, streloks, dynamos and antipode assault packs. I feel like going vanilla might probably be stronger, but I like my sectorial, and using these "elite" troops more and more have been quite fun.
My favourite is the hidden gem, the AP Rifle parachutist spetsnaz with grenades. He is such a cheap fun unit that can annoy the hell out of opponents, doing suppressive fire in backlines, grenading room full of people (and hostages) and all sorts of meyhem.
Overall, yes we were nerfed but I am happy. Made me think of new ways to solve problems.
This is really interesting to me. I play USARF, and am about to start JSA. I've been losing the vast majority of my games (against Yu Jing and Pan-O), and was under the impression that USARF was still quite underpowered. It's good to get another perspective on it, and makes me want to keep trying with them.
Glad you found it useful - bear in mind it's an older video now! But I do think the comments on USARF mostly hold up.
I should probably do an update now that we're well into the current season...
The Duo Mowang and Hulang is just so kickass. The Mowang is basically a Hulang delivery vehicle. "3" wounds 2w + NWI for the Mowang, with a Spitfire/RedFury for range bands, and then the Hulang is a go do missions + guard against war bands. Mimetism -6 is so useful, as is the EM grenades. Those EM grenades against Tags or links are extremely dangerous. +1 burst SMG too.
"No faction with the Karhu, linkable or unlinkable, can be considered bad."
I do love those spicy HMG bois.
I have to say, being vulnerable to GML feels like it's worth a whole letter shift all by itself.
Like, poor SP, you have such badasses and concentrated value, but you literally can do nothing to stop a heckler from plonking a fast panda in your dz and ruining your everything
I think I disagree with this as a take, for a few reasons. Firstly, Phalanx are solidly capable of contesting movement up the field well enough to hassle deployment zone repeater positioning (almost no army can hard prevent this, but anyone who can put up a roadblock is in on the front foot), and are one of the best factions in the game at actually taking a long time to have anything die to missiles. Across the board, all their models that you're genuinely worried about dying to a missile strike have some combination of resilience, high PHY and access to sixth sense. The commensurate downside is that a lot of these models are still expensive and suck to have die, but I wouldn't categorise Phalanx as nearly as vulnerable to DZ missile strikes as some factions.
On top of this, Phalanx hacking pieces, especially Thamyris, can be deployed as 'shields' for your link teams, adding another real tick of a layer to push through before you can efficiently drop missiles.
This second point is doubly relevant because missiles in the first place are typically a weaker strategy than dropping repeaters on the DZ to eliminate enemy hacking capability, and Phalanx having hackers that are pains in the ass to trinity down is a strong quality in that context.
@@R0bertShepherd Well, all you need is a single minelayer to stop a heckler from walking up and plonking a repeater down - which SP doesn't have. The PH and sixth sense are nice, but it's not *that* big of a shift. You probably still die. That NWI is nice because it lets you fail guts to safety when you're outmatched, but 6S just doesn't do that
Incidentally, one of the best ways to stay safe from GML is by keeping your dudes spread out so that a single repeater can only get one important guy. That's sorta the opposite of SP's philosophy... but maybe there's something there
Thamyris does not act as a shield at all. Jazz, Bit and the rest just kill him first or ignore him if he's doing zero pain and target the rest of the team. Sadly, no protection there
That said, I will admit that "a whole letter shift" for guided vulnerability is hyperbole. A fairer way to rephrase my take would be "being vulnerable as a faction to guided is a pretty serious hit, because it seems fairly common in almost all metas"
I'd put Joan lists, CHA, and Wallace-based Kosmo lists as similarly vulnerable to guided. CHA and Kosmo don't even have (useful) minelayers for stopping a heckler. Talking about minelayers really is only relevant for the stopping heckler (and maybe Guilang?), but successfully defending against a Pitcher (like from Bit and Kiss or Druze) can occupy a ton of thought process for your deployment
Incidentally, but for this vulnerability to GML, I think I'd put SP as S tier. They are seriously bonkers good. I also do personally think the vulnerability to guided missiles is SP's Achilles heel (pun intended). I've played probably two dozen games *just* trying to find a way to play SP that's safe against a competent GML player, and have not had success
@@Nick-dc6ix I mention Thamyris because the unique wording on Zero Pain means that it applies a -3 to enemy rolls even outside of face to face rolls (to my understanding - it's possible the surprise attack FAQ supersedes this, but at least in Australia the ruling from TOs is that Zero Pain applies a negative MOD to enemy comms attacks regardless of whether it is opposed, so that's what I'm working to - YMMV!).
@@R0bertShepherd Yeah, we've had the opposite feeling around here. I generally don't like trying to argue rulings with TOs, so maybe someone else does, but til then the -3 won't apply
That said, I ran Thamyris for a while before the FAQ ruling, and (a) he dies pretty fast to the kinds of KHDs that tend to accompany repeaters (B+K, Jazz, Barids), and (b) even if he doesn't get killed he's just imposing a -3. It doesn't shift the needle all *that* much
For all that, I like Thamyris. I think SP hackerfack has unexpected value if nothing else. Consider, for example, that all those REMs pair well with excellent engineers like Acmon. And Thamyris is stunningly versatile for his tiny low cost. Assault pistol and Pulzar? Yes please
Edit: incidentally, I realize comparing thamyris against jazz and b+k is a little skewed, it's just those are the kinds of GML threats that I feel I need to warp my listbuilding around
Such a good video, thank you!
Great video, really good takes. I think USARF should be a bit higher. Especially in ITS13 the maverick haris is awesome! Infiltration grunts are durable roadblocks, and you hit devil dogs and desparados on the head. Overall great job guys.
So why is it called Shasvastii EYE? Thanks
Pretty cool seeing a list. I am still going through the video but some interesting stuff. Cool seeing Shas, USArf, Saa, white banner and SP so high. Surprising seeing Hass,012, and Ikari lower than I expected. Diggin the content
Would you mind adding time stamps for each faction? Sorry if that is a lot of work
Loved the extended analysis more then the actual tiering. great stuff.
I kinda bounced off Lobos. What do you find interesting about em?
Almost nothing except that they complete a correctional link in Corregidor. The Diablos are where it's at, with the Lobos adding a passable gun or specialist if required.
Love this vid, glad you did it
If Onyx isn't in the SS tier you're gonna hear about it
OK I have good news and bad news
@@R0bertShepherd I saw only bad news
Oh no, Onyx is the only one I disagree with. Should at least be above shavastii.
@@alexbrooke1840 I'll be honest, Shasvastii for me are ranked where they are off the strength of a list I once saw Perzan run and which has terrified me to face ever since. I think if you took a more 'normal' SEF list and placed it against a normal Onyx list, you'd be dead on (that is to say, SEF would be down in the B-tier a bit below Onyx). But SEF strutting their full mechanical uniqueness is a vicious predator of a faction.
Vanilla CA has eclipse. Rasyat have it.
There's a big difference between Eclipse on the Rasyat (an expensive, parachutist DZ troop with a very specific and powerful role) and Eclipse in factions like Phalanx and Tohaa. The rasyat is very, very good, and a piece that contributes to CA's mechanical strength and uniqueness, but it's not a piece you'd ever pick as your first choice to e.g. break a long firelane to allow short-range elements to move from your deployment zone into the midfield, or set up a pie-slice against enemy overlapping MSV pieces.
Despite that, what CA *does* have is the highest WIP white noise hackers in the game, so they're hardly suffering here.
Sad time to be a panO player. Especially in my meta.
Would u consider doing more faction specific content?
As a new player it would be super helpful to get an overview of the strengths/weaknesses of the faction and what they do well from a experienced perspective
Like hey these are the 5 or 10 important pieces and how they work together
I definitely could. I think I'd need to break it up into short summaries, maybe of groups of factions? How to format the videos in an interesting way would be the thing.
“Aleph don’t have war bands.”
Myrmidons: “Am I a joke to you?”
Just because a model has the designation 'warband' in Army doesn't mean it fills the role of a warband mechanically (and vice versa - see Krakots). Most of Phalanx's best characters are categorised as warbands, but if you use Phoenix the same way I'd use a Taigha or Shaolin, either you or your opponent has probably made a fascinating series of mistakes.
A warband in the mechanical sense is a piece that is cheap, expendable, and mobile - something that can be used to trade with enemy elements or disposably test enemy defences (e.g. push through a marker field, tease out hidden deployment). A mymridion is a great piece, but it's poorly suited to this role, mostly due to the fact that it's 16pts and starts in the deployment zone without any impetuous order to begin moving it forward if needed.
Hmm. This gives me an idea for an alignment chart meme.
@@R0bertShepherd in the context of Vanilla Aleph, I would agree. The Mk 5 Posthuman does a better job in that role. But in Phalanx I’d rather throw away a 16 pt Chain Rifle guy than Phoenix. But you’re right that I’d rather throw away a Taigha or a Daturazi than a Myrmidon of any stripe.
But I also think that makes sense for Aleph. I’m less likely to lose the Myrmidon in trade, but it’ll hurt more when I do.
"Yes"
Edit: A joke of a warband, anyway. The free smoke toss from impetuous is really central to the function of warbands. In other contexts where that impet doesn't mateter, like SP, they're obviously a different story
@@Nick-dc6ix kind of like a makaul in tohaa, from my defintion-radical, role-purist perspective, a myrmidion is a super sweet line troop :P
@@R0bertShepherd I like that perspective!
I think it helps understand why they come online so well in links, too - line trooper
Considering ariadna into C or D? That is just incorrect.
which is why they are ranked a solid A, my friend :)