Hello Trent. These instruments predate the very tight valves which were originated by Boosey in the Silbron models. At the time these would have been played using an oil and lanolin mix which filled the gap. Hetmann make a space filling oil called "vintage" that helps considerably. You could plate the valves and sort out the leak, but the leak was there from new. It was part of the "deal" at the time. Hope this helps. I am a collector of vintage instruments too!
I knew a trumpet player who had a French trumpet that was made during WWI and it worked perfectly but the mouthpiece was fused to the lead pipe from being there so long.
Hello Trent. I am a big fan of the channel and I love that you review so many brass band instruments. I was wondering if you would consider doing an episode where you compare a popular American cornet like an olds ambassador and a popular English cornet like a nice York cornet. I think it would be cool to explore the differences in tone quality between the two instruments especially since American cornets don't usually come with a Shepard's crook. Thanks for the great content!
That wrap is copied from Courtois' award winning models made for Arban and Levy. The funny wrap started due to the position of the valve ports, which were originated for French pattern cornets (bell on the same side as a flugel). If you look at old instrument advertisements of this period they refer to any instrument with that wrap as a "Courtois model" even if it wasn't made by Courtois!
An electroplating kit might save these valve pistons too. Stuff up the air passages with oil-based clay so they don't get plated inside (you don't want to change that dimension), and clean, plate, clean, plate, lather rinse repeat until you've built up enough material to take up that wobble. It won't be anything close to a millimeter, as the instrument would basically not function at all if the compression was that poor. Also look for air leaks in the joints and possibly the body itself. Plug up the bell nice and tight, hook up a hose, and try to blow air through the instrument while it is under water. This is a health-and-safety approved version of the smoke test (blowing cigarette smoke through an instrument to see where it leaks). I had a double horn that had cracks in the leadpipe that were invisible to the naked eye, which I detected with the bathtub test. I was able to make it functional by coating the whole segment in clear nail polish, but it desperately needed replacing if it was going to be a serviceable instrument. It's now someone's wall decoration as far as I know.
I have one of these cornets. I found your video while trying to find out more information about it myself. I am going to sell it. I don't play myself. I had ambitions but never got around to it.
I stumbled across your video about the De Lacy cornet. I recently bought one in battered condition at an auction. It is inscribed as made by R De Lacy when he was at 84 Holland Road, Brixton, London. It also is engraved BRONWYDD BAND. I found an account of them playing in Wales in 1895 and a photograph of the band in which their instruments can be seen. The design is more conventional than yours.
I notice a lot of people have commented with ‘throw goo in with the valve oil’, I used to use a wipe of lithium grease on an old Boosey cornet with the same issue. Oddly, whilst watching this video, I made a grab for an old Ball, Beavon & co nickel plated cornet- it has an identical water key and leaf spring arrangement. I would suspect a familial connection, but the layout is much more conventional. It’s a shame, as I rather like pretzel- like instruments. Rarely play now, though.
I picked up a Besson Brevetee cornet on Trademe recently for $30, the serial number suggests it was manufactured in 1872 or 1873, but it's even worse than this one you're talking about here. All of the slides are stuck. The water key is present, but the actual "port" on the tube is missing, any temporary plugs doesn't make a difference to its function. The valves are less precise than a playground seesaw after years of (ab)use. Not to mention a few broken solder joints. I'm still happy with it though, it's the oldest thing I own, and I have a house filled with antiques. given how inexpensive it was. I don't think it will ever sound again unless somebody very skilled is able to do some major restorative work to the valves, for starters. It's probably best that I leave it as non-functioning antique at this point. It's odd how "worthless" these old instruments are, yet people will pay thousands for a decorative plate of the same age.
Oh my gosh! Trent, that cornet should have turn to dust by now! Edit:Now that I've pondered about it, The Cornet's been in good condition all of this time,so, it's very durable and sturdy!
Hey Trent, I'm a 15 year old tenor trombonist, and I've recently been moving up to first trombonist in a lot of school and county bands, and I've been looking for tips on increasing my range, help with tonguing, and help with solo sections with complicated parts. Thanks!
I collect and play old instruments. 3in1 General Purpose oil not the silicone based new 3in1 the old stuff works well on old instruments. Another trick we use is to coat the outside of the valves in a thin coat of white lithium grease then oil with what ever valve/slide/key oil you have on hand. For pistons not as far gone as the ones int hat 140 year old cornet another recipe is 50/50 3in1 oil+BlueJuice valve oil. I hate BlueJuice but a lot of low brass collectors swear by the 50/50 BlueJuice + 3in1 recipe for well worn low brass instruments. I understand the cornet is not low brass. LOL In America the only way to get affordable low brass is to buy well used instruments from schools getting rid of them or well used barn finds the gently used one sell for way too much money! That cornet in good shape is actually a hi dollar item! I knew a man that had one in like new shape that played it often and it had an absolutely beautiful sound. It was very lyrical but still powerful with very rich sound. It did a fantastic job of bridging the gap between classic cornet sound and modern trumpet sound. His had a lot of ornate engraving on it as well! It came in a coffin case if I remember right!
Hey Trent, I was just wondering about the quality of Chinese brass instruments and the shipping quality of them. I play the French horn as my main instrument and am hoping to expand to more brass instruments, preferably somewhat unusual. I also live in New Zealand so some advice would help about shipping and quality.
Hi Trent. I’m a trumpet player and was thinking of taking up trombone. I was thinking either bass trombone or contrabass. Was wondering what the differences are between the two? Many thanks and love your channel
Contrabass plays one octave lower, and thus has a similar bore to a tuba. Bass is on the same pitch as a tenor trombone, but often has a larger bore and a different tone. I personally play trumpet, euphonium, and tuba, so I have only limited knowledge on trombones.
As cool as the contrabass is, there is no point of owning one until you are at least a (highly) competent bass trombonist. Even then you are also going to have (a lot of) trouble finding ensembles to play with (and you'll probably just be playing bass trombone/tuba parts anyway). As for the differences, traditionally the contrabasses where pitched in Bb below tenor (with the bass pitched somewhere between G to F). Most contrabass players nowadays prefer the modern double valved F contra over the lower pitched Bb. Cosmetically, the Bb has the double slide, and a wrapped bell section with single valve; this all results in an instrument with the same proportions as a bass/tenor trombone but with with twice the open horn (without extending the instrument via valves or slide) length and plays with the same positions but one octave lower. The F contra is very tall as it has a 12' bugle (open horn) length as opposed to 9' for tenor/bass or 18' for Bb contra (but that's double wrapped so it's equivalent to 9' proportionally), and has a double valve setup. As for advantages, the F contra is lighter (keep in mind even a double valved bass trombone is considered heavy to most trombonists let alone a beginner), more secure in the higher register (anything above the bass staff on Bb will be playable in first or second position so miss pitching would be a problem since intervals are so close), and the slide will function better since the double slide on the Bb contra is very cumbersome (heavier, more resistance, much easier to knock out of alignment/have good alignment to begin with). The only advantage I can think of for Bb contra is that it plays in the same harmonic series as tenor/bass so there's less of a learning curve transitioning between the two. I personally would recommend finding a modestly priced tenor trombone and starting on that. If you have only played trumpet, even a small tenor trombone mouthpiece will feel big (let alone a [large] bass piece, and let's just drop the thought of contrabass). Look for something second hand that plays alright and has a good slide. Would be a good idea to bring someone who plays trombone (well) and see what they think of the quality. Once you've learned how to play trombone you'll have a better idea of which instrument you'd prefer to play, and then would be a better time to invest in a better horn. A large bore tenor can be very versatile in the right hands btw, nothing stopping you from putting a bass trombone mouthpiece in there and knocking out some low notes if you want.
Hi Trent - loving seeing this. I know a bit about Robert de Lacy from my research into the New Shildon born bandmaster/arranger/composers George Allan and Thomas Edward Bulch. See www.wizardandtyphoon.org He was born in 1831into a family of bookbinders that lived in Sunderland, Tyne & Wear, UK. He was a freemason and professor of music there before he moved to Brixton. He was conductor/bandmaster for a number of brass bands in the North East of England, including the River Wear Royal Yacht Club Band, Stanhope Band, Allendale Town Band and he was the first bandmaster of the New Shildon Saxhorn Band (the connection to our research). He moved from Sunderland to Brixton sometime between 1861 and 1871 (fits your estimated dating) with his son Charles John and daughter Rosamond. When there he founded the London Brass Journal (one of a number of brass journals of the age) which Roy Newsome tells us contained much of his own pieces. This evolved to become the London Brass and Military Journal by 1888. We knew that he had also become involved in musical instrument production as one of our group found a 'de Lacy' 'ventil horn' in a collection at Durham University. He died on 20th December 1908 in London. His son Charles John de Lacy went on to become one of the foremost British marine artists of the period, having trained at the National Gallery, having the London Illustrated News as a patron and exhibiting at the Royal Academy in 1889
Maybe not such an uncommon design. I have had for a year or two a cornet of perhaps identical design, with same wrap, single lever water key servicing 2 outlets, etc. This cornet is in unlacquered raw brass and was given to my wife (until I "snaffled" it) by a reed player in Colac Vic., AU, to whom it was given by a local old lady. It is inscribed "CLASS A (scrollwork with lions and shield) VICTOR W.H. PALING & Co LTD Paris 2682". Curious, because Paling was a Sydney AU (and elsewhere?) music store, but "Paris"?? Otherwise only piston numbers 1, 2 ,3; and A on the lead pipe insert appear. The instrument is nearly blemish-free, apart from a minor dent on upper part of the bell. The battered mouthpiece bears plyer marks, "N" and "Lond" and is tied into the leadpipe insert tube with string. It doesn't play too badly, with a tone similar to that in Trent's video.
Back in the day the company that imported and sold the instruments often put their brands on the instrument too. I've got a couple that have the names of local music shops on them in addition to the maker's marks
@@TrentHamilton Agree. I have a bass sax which is obviously a Conn stencil, but it is inscribed with a London-based dealer's name (which I can't recall, and can't access at the moment, as it is stored among my "treasures", which my wife refers to as "junk", but which I prefer to call at least "junque"), but with the sax is also stored an old necktie with same dealer's name: I think it is " Bergin Bros" or some such. PS I also have a box of bass sax reeds, bought many years ago in Auckland NZ, otherwise hard to get then.
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Hello Trent. These instruments predate the very tight valves which were originated by Boosey in the Silbron models. At the time these would have been played using an oil and lanolin mix which filled the gap. Hetmann make a space filling oil called "vintage" that helps considerably. You could plate the valves and sort out the leak, but the leak was there from new. It was part of the "deal" at the time. Hope this helps. I am a collector of vintage instruments too!
Gordon Hudson. That is fascinating
A mixture of valveoil and rotor-oil will do a similar thing - proportionally more valveoil to thin it, more rotor oil to thicken.
I also collect antique brass instruments. On old, loose valves sometimes a spot of automatic transmission fluid works nicely.
Imagine finding out that a piece of musical equipment you owned would get played by someone else, thousands of miles away.... 140 years later.
In front of a 14,000 person audience.
It plays very good for it's age. It obviously has been used a lot, so what would you expect? A very nice and decent Cornet I think.
I knew a trumpet player who had a French trumpet that was made during WWI and it worked perfectly but the mouthpiece was fused to the lead pipe from being there so long.
Just spray some WD40 on it, should come right off
I just did a restoration on an 1879 cornet, Gordon Hudson is correct. When i mix lanolin with oil it plays beautifully.
Hello Trent. I am a big fan of the channel and I love that you review so many brass band instruments. I was wondering if you would consider doing an episode where you compare a popular American cornet like an olds ambassador and a popular English cornet like a nice York cornet. I think it would be cool to explore the differences in tone quality between the two instruments especially since American cornets don't usually come with a Shepard's crook. Thanks for the great content!
That wrap is copied from Courtois' award winning models made for Arban and Levy. The funny wrap started due to the position of the valve ports, which were originated for French pattern cornets (bell on the same side as a flugel). If you look at old instrument advertisements of this period they refer to any instrument with that wrap as a "Courtois model" even if it wasn't made by Courtois!
That is a gorgeous bit of history :D
An electroplating kit might save these valve pistons too. Stuff up the air passages with oil-based clay so they don't get plated inside (you don't want to change that dimension), and clean, plate, clean, plate, lather rinse repeat until you've built up enough material to take up that wobble. It won't be anything close to a millimeter, as the instrument would basically not function at all if the compression was that poor.
Also look for air leaks in the joints and possibly the body itself. Plug up the bell nice and tight, hook up a hose, and try to blow air through the instrument while it is under water. This is a health-and-safety approved version of the smoke test (blowing cigarette smoke through an instrument to see where it leaks). I had a double horn that had cracks in the leadpipe that were invisible to the naked eye, which I detected with the bathtub test. I was able to make it functional by coating the whole segment in clear nail polish, but it desperately needed replacing if it was going to be a serviceable instrument. It's now someone's wall decoration as far as I know.
I have one of these cornets. I found your video while trying to find out more information about it myself.
I am going to sell it.
I don't play myself. I had ambitions but never got around to it.
That Water key made me smile for some reason 😄
Uh probably because it's fuckin awesome? I'm trying to figure out how I can put one on my cornet
The tone sounds similar to some of the old recordings I have of Herber Clarke. Interesting
Hi Trent, I'm x years old and play y, have any tips?
A, B, C. In that order. Cheers
I stumbled across your video about the De Lacy cornet. I recently bought one in battered condition at an auction. It is inscribed as made by R De Lacy when he was at 84 Holland Road, Brixton, London.
It also is engraved BRONWYDD BAND. I found an account of them playing in Wales in 1895 and a photograph of the band in which their instruments can be seen. The design is more conventional than yours.
I notice a lot of people have commented with ‘throw goo in with the valve oil’, I used to use a wipe of lithium grease on an old Boosey cornet with the same issue. Oddly, whilst watching this video, I made a grab for an old Ball, Beavon & co nickel plated cornet- it has an identical water key and leaf spring arrangement. I would suspect a familial connection, but the layout is much more conventional. It’s a shame, as I rather like pretzel- like instruments. Rarely play now, though.
What a beautiful instrument!
Wow it sounds beautiful!
that double water key is actually genius.
Great video once again 👏
I really want this cornet. (probably because it's old and has history)
Maybe we just can't hear the air leaks, but that baby sounds pretty sweet to me.
I picked up a Besson Brevetee cornet on Trademe recently for $30, the serial number suggests it was manufactured in 1872 or 1873, but it's even worse than this one you're talking about here. All of the slides are stuck. The water key is present, but the actual "port" on the tube is missing, any temporary plugs doesn't make a difference to its function. The valves are less precise than a playground seesaw after years of (ab)use. Not to mention a few broken solder joints.
I'm still happy with it though, it's the oldest thing I own, and I have a house filled with antiques. given how inexpensive it was. I don't think it will ever sound again unless somebody very skilled is able to do some major restorative work to the valves, for starters. It's probably best that I leave it as non-functioning antique at this point. It's odd how "worthless" these old instruments are, yet people will pay thousands for a decorative plate of the same age.
I’ve got some thicker valve oil that might make a difference. Instruments of this age lacked the precision tooling to make close fitting valves.
@@TrentHamilton I'm thinking trombotine at this point... Or marine grade bearing grease. (Sarcasm).
Should I ask for a pocket cornet for Christmas just a quick question
Oh my gosh! Trent, that cornet should have turn to dust by now!
Edit:Now that I've pondered about it, The Cornet's been in good condition all of this time,so, it's very durable and sturdy!
Hey Trent, I'm a 15 year old tenor trombonist, and I've recently been moving up to first trombonist in a lot of school and county bands, and I've been looking for tips on increasing my range, help with tonguing, and help with solo sections with complicated parts. Thanks!
Andrew Stremme he posted a video over this. Just look for his videos over range building
I play a 70 year old coronet and my grandpa was the first to use it
That sounded way better than I was expecting. Is the idea to restore it a bit, or leave it as is?
I think plated values made it thicker so it wiggle as much
Thanks for sharing a neet horn. Could you make a cummerbund of TFPE "Teflon" tape between the upper and lower sts of holes?
For a great article on piston valve cornet history, read this: www.vintagecornets.com/cornet_paper2.pdf
I collect and play old instruments. 3in1 General Purpose oil not the silicone based new 3in1 the old stuff works well on old instruments. Another trick we use is to coat the outside of the valves in a thin coat of white lithium grease then oil with what ever valve/slide/key oil you have on hand. For pistons not as far gone as the ones int hat 140 year old cornet another recipe is 50/50 3in1 oil+BlueJuice valve oil. I hate BlueJuice but a lot of low brass collectors swear by the 50/50 BlueJuice + 3in1 recipe for well worn low brass instruments. I understand the cornet is not low brass. LOL In America the only way to get affordable low brass is to buy well used instruments from schools getting rid of them or well used barn finds the gently used one sell for way too much money!
That cornet in good shape is actually a hi dollar item! I knew a man that had one in like new shape that played it often and it had an absolutely beautiful sound. It was very lyrical but still powerful with very rich sound. It did a fantastic job of bridging the gap between classic cornet sound and modern trumpet sound. His had a lot of ornate engraving on it as well! It came in a coffin case if I remember right!
Hey Bluejuce is good on larger valves like on Euphonium
Hey Trent, I was just wondering about the quality of Chinese brass instruments and the shipping quality of them. I play the French horn as my main instrument and am hoping to expand to more brass instruments, preferably somewhat unusual. I also live in New Zealand so some advice would help about shipping and quality.
I was really expecting something terrible when you played it, from how much you talked it down. I don't think it sounds all that bad.
Woah
It even sounds like grammaphone playback
Hi Trent. I’m a trumpet player and was thinking of taking up trombone. I was thinking either bass trombone or contrabass. Was wondering what the differences are between the two? Many thanks and love your channel
Contrabass plays one octave lower, and thus has a similar bore to a tuba. Bass is on the same pitch as a tenor trombone, but often has a larger bore and a different tone. I personally play trumpet, euphonium, and tuba, so I have only limited knowledge on trombones.
After The Electrike thanks so much that’s really helpful
You are so very welcome! :)
As cool as the contrabass is, there is no point of owning one until you are at least a (highly) competent bass trombonist. Even then you are also going to have (a lot of) trouble finding ensembles to play with (and you'll probably just be playing bass trombone/tuba parts anyway).
As for the differences, traditionally the contrabasses where pitched in Bb below tenor (with the bass pitched somewhere between G to F). Most contrabass players nowadays prefer the modern double valved F contra over the lower pitched Bb. Cosmetically, the Bb has the double slide, and a wrapped bell section with single valve; this all results in an instrument with the same proportions as a bass/tenor trombone but with with twice the open horn (without extending the instrument via valves or slide) length and plays with the same positions but one octave lower. The F contra is very tall as it has a 12' bugle (open horn) length as opposed to 9' for tenor/bass or 18' for Bb contra (but that's double wrapped so it's equivalent to 9' proportionally), and has a double valve setup.
As for advantages, the F contra is lighter (keep in mind even a double valved bass trombone is considered heavy to most trombonists let alone a beginner), more secure in the higher register (anything above the bass staff on Bb will be playable in first or second position so miss pitching would be a problem since intervals are so close), and the slide will function better since the double slide on the Bb contra is very cumbersome (heavier, more resistance, much easier to knock out of alignment/have good alignment to begin with).
The only advantage I can think of for Bb contra is that it plays in the same harmonic series as tenor/bass so there's less of a learning curve transitioning between the two.
I personally would recommend finding a modestly priced tenor trombone and starting on that. If you have only played trumpet, even a small tenor trombone mouthpiece will feel big (let alone a [large] bass piece, and let's just drop the thought of contrabass). Look for something second hand that plays alright and has a good slide. Would be a good idea to bring someone who plays trombone (well) and see what they think of the quality.
Once you've learned how to play trombone you'll have a better idea of which instrument you'd prefer to play, and then would be a better time to invest in a better horn. A large bore tenor can be very versatile in the right hands btw, nothing stopping you from putting a bass trombone mouthpiece in there and knocking out some low notes if you want.
Lindsay Gibson As I have heard. Never gotten to play one, hope to someday soon enough.
Hi Trent - loving seeing this. I know a bit about Robert de Lacy from my research into the New Shildon born bandmaster/arranger/composers George Allan and Thomas Edward Bulch. See www.wizardandtyphoon.org He was born in 1831into a family of bookbinders that lived in Sunderland, Tyne & Wear, UK. He was a freemason and professor of music there before he moved to Brixton. He was conductor/bandmaster for a number of brass bands in the North East of England, including the River Wear Royal Yacht Club Band, Stanhope Band, Allendale Town Band and he was the first bandmaster of the New Shildon Saxhorn Band (the connection to our research). He moved from Sunderland to Brixton sometime between 1861 and 1871 (fits your estimated dating) with his son Charles John and daughter Rosamond. When there he founded the London Brass Journal (one of a number of brass journals of the age) which Roy Newsome tells us contained much of his own pieces. This evolved to become the London Brass and Military Journal by 1888. We knew that he had also become involved in musical instrument production as one of our group found a 'de Lacy' 'ventil horn' in a collection at Durham University. He died on 20th December 1908 in London. His son Charles John de Lacy went on to become one of the foremost British marine artists of the period, having trained at the National Gallery, having the London Illustrated News as a patron and exhibiting at the Royal Academy in 1889
That's great. Thank you so much :)
have you heard of this Vintage Austrian Barclay Cornet?
I have an idea for a strange instrument that u should review, Trent. Are you aware of the double-belled euphonium?
He starts playing at 6:40 . You're welcome
As an alto sax player, I find brass wind instruments way more interesting
Hey Trent how are you
Is this supposed to be an unlisted video? Anyways, great video as always. :)
Are you a patreon supporter? Patron's get early access to my videos.
Yes I am, that explains it then. :)
6:42 that's when he starts playing
いろんな楽器があるね
song name?
Maybe not such an uncommon design. I have had for a year or two a cornet of perhaps identical design, with same wrap, single lever water key servicing 2 outlets, etc. This cornet is in unlacquered raw brass and was given to my wife (until I "snaffled" it) by a reed player in Colac Vic., AU, to whom it was given by a local old lady. It is inscribed "CLASS A (scrollwork with lions and shield) VICTOR W.H. PALING & Co LTD Paris 2682". Curious, because Paling was a Sydney AU (and elsewhere?) music store, but "Paris"?? Otherwise only piston numbers 1, 2 ,3; and A on the lead pipe insert appear. The instrument is nearly blemish-free, apart from a minor dent on upper part of the bell. The battered mouthpiece bears plyer marks, "N" and "Lond" and is tied into the leadpipe insert tube with string. It doesn't play too badly, with a tone similar to that in Trent's video.
Back in the day the company that imported and sold the instruments often put their brands on the instrument too. I've got a couple that have the names of local music shops on them in addition to the maker's marks
@@TrentHamilton Agree. I have a bass sax which is obviously a Conn stencil, but it is inscribed with a London-based dealer's name (which I can't recall, and can't access at the moment, as it is stored among my "treasures", which my wife refers to as "junk", but which I prefer to call at least "junque"), but with the sax is also stored an old necktie with same dealer's name: I think it is " Bergin Bros" or some such. PS I also have a box of bass sax reeds, bought many years ago in Auckland NZ, otherwise hard to get then.
Instead of playing chopin for us, can you please make us a chopin liszt?
YOU SHOULD TO PLAY MORE THAN YOU SPEAK...
Yes, for those who dont want to know anything about the instrument.