When Dukat says his son will "look back on it with hatred" he neglects to say "because that's the person I'm raising him to be." It never crosses Dukat's mind that he could explain the situation to his child or give him a nuanced view of the galaxy, because teaching his son those things wouldn't benefit him or Cardassia.
I absolutely adore the dramatic reveal when "Riker" takes off his sideburns to reveal his evil goatee. Star Trek has done comedy well on a number of occasions, but I still think that that's probably the most hilarious event in the franchise. It's perfect.
I always took Tom quickly getting rid of O'brien being an attempt to save his cover. The last thing he needs is for him to start asking questions about how Lieutenant Whatserface is handling working in the transporter room now and if Ensign Whatshisname got that promotion he was trying for. But yeah, making sure there aren't any more crew around than necessary makes sense too.
Trivia: Tom Riker describes The Defiant as a "tough, little ship" which Will Riker also describes it as the same thing in Star Trek: First Contact (to Worf's annoyance). Also the supporting Maquis character, Kalita from TNG's "Preemptive Strike" is at the helm of the Defiant in this episode. Also, also: Lakarian City (where Dukat wanted to take his son) is mentioned in this episode and it was leveled to the ground in "What You Leave Behind". Yes, I have no life and I've made peace with that.
I always took the O’Brian conversation to be about making sure he didn’t end up in a ‘Hey do you remember when…..’ situation since he definitely didn’t remember and tipping him off that something was wrong.
And it helps that O’Brien is an enlisted man, because that makes “senior officer being weird to me” not actually all that weird. Senior officers just do that sometimes, it might not register as out of character right away
But yeah, I agree that the main goal with the O’Brien conversation is to get him out of the way, since he’s the only person on the station who knows the real Riker personally and who would notice if he starts tap dancing
This episode cemented Dukat as the franchise's best villain by miles. The scenes with Dukat and Sisko are fantastic. Tom and Kira's back and forth on Defiant is brilliant, too. Plus, it reinforced the Obsidian Order as the season's villains... and the hints that the Tal'Shiar were involved.
I always thought that Tom was dismissive of O'Brien because O'Brien would have shared knowledge with Will that Tom wouldn't, so he'd figure out it was not Will and raise the alarm before he could steal the ship. Best way to deal with O'Brien being there was to just get him out of there asap.
I thought the reason Riker anapped at O'Brien was not just to get him off the ship but to avoid risking O'Brien seeing the differences which could ruin the whole plan.
One of the other "most Deep Space Nine" elements is that fleet being a part of the larger season plot culminating in the attack on the Founders. The couldn't even have a guest spot episode without adding to the larger world of storytelling.
Actually, the secret Cardassian fleet harkens back to the O'Brien focused TNG episode, where Captain Maxwell is attacking Cardassian ships and the Enterprise had to stop him.
I love the scene where Odo & Sisko are explaining the plot to Dukat, and he just says: "This is a very entertaining story but...why am I listening to it?"
Y’know what might be an interesting story to revisit Tom Riker’s fate? The waning days of the Dominion war, Tom gets approached by one of the camp guards who recruits him into Damar’s Cardassian resistance movement. He almost refuses until the guard passes on a message from Kira, something like “I keep my promises Tom. If you do this you’ll be helping the Federation as well as Cardassia.” Tom survives the war and afterwards decides to stay on Cardassia to help rebuild. Ten or twenty years go by and Gul Riker is in command of a Cardassian ship. Cue whatever story you want to tell with that setup.
Ira Behr said in an interview that he did want to bring Thomas Riker back for a multi-episode story arc. But Jonathan Frakes would have only been able to return for one episode, so Behr decided not to bring Thomas back since he didn't think one episode was enough for his story.
The thing about Dukat telling Sisko that his son will look back at this day with hatred is that Dukat is probably going to be the one to tell his son that an unprovoked attack from murderous Maquis terrorists backed by the Federation was what kept him away that day.
Also one of the most DS9 DS9 episodes because of the callbacks to earlier episodes that happen organically, as well as subtle follow-ups later in the series: - Obviously a follow-up of the TNG episode "Second Chances". It's also mentions that Will Riker won big at Quark's, so much so that he has to be paid with vouchers, as previously mentioned in the TNG episode "Firstborn" (How Tom Riker knows about that is a huge mystery) - Dukat is somehow still on the station after the events of "Civil Defense" (head canon is that "Meridian" took place before rather than after "Civil Defense"), an episode setting up that Dukat hates the Obsidian Order and that the feeling is mutual - Tom Riker calls the Defiant a tough little ship, which Will Riker also calls it in First Contact. Worf takes offense to that moniker in the latter instance. - And the big one: That secret Obsidian Order fleet in the Orias System is being used by Enabran Tain to preemptively eradicate the Founders later in Season 3
That secret Cardassian fleet is also mentioned at the end of the very first TNG episode to feature the Cardassians, "The Wounded." The episode where Captain Maxwell is attacking Cardassian ships in Cardassian space. And O'Brien served under him at Setlik III.
It's also totally possible that the DS9 crew (or other group) rescued Tom Riker, but no episode was made about it. Plenty of things happen that we never see on-screen. If someone's really upset about it, that's what fanfic is for. :)
I'd like to think they got him out, but in the most mundane way ever as the third footnote on some legal agreement where the federation gave them a moon and returned a couple of old ships they'd captured and the Cardassians agreed to recognise the federation's claim to some L class planet they already had hold of anyway, gave them back a runabout, a couple of scientific probes they nicked and, oh right, that one ex-starfleet officer who tried to take out a fleet with a stolen ship that one time.
In Star Trek Online, there was a mission where we met Tom's son, still in a Cardassian prison just like dad. We learn Tom died in prison, and we help Tom Jr. escape. The mission has been removed since.
@@wezul over half of the missions are just gone, as the storyline morphs and shifts to keep up with new canon, and sometimes it’s just for technical reasons (early missions can be pretty janky compared to newer ones). It’s a thing with all long running MMOs
@@kaitlyn__L I'm still playing City of Heroes, and all of the missions are available, even the janky ones from 2004. Anything removed from "regular" gameplay is available via the Flashback system, with very few exceptions. And not a whole lot has been removed from regular gameplay overall, just more stuff added. It's pretty cool. :)
Thomas Riker is still alive when Garak takes over Cardassia prime, and his sentence ends up converted to "hang out with the president of Cardassia a bunch."
I figure it'd probably be like the "comfortable imprisonment" Picard was offered in Chain of Command. Maybe trade him back to the Federation in exchange for humanitarian aid after a few years.
Thomas Riker (to Kira, re: the Defiant, in this episode): "Tough little ship." William Riker (to Worf, re: the Defiant, in First Contact): "Tough little ship." This episode reminds me a lot of "The Wounded" - where a Federation officer was taking a highly powered ship into Cardassian space to uncover secrets about their military movements. Many very good parallels.
I must admit that, at the time Defiant first aired, I also noticed the plot similarities to TNG's The Wounded. So much so, that I kind of wrote this one off as basically a retread, where DS9's writers were taking advantage of a loose end character from TNG in the hopes of generating some extra drama/conflict.
"Defiant" also pays off something that happened in "The Search" I and II. The Founders let the Defiant go in that two-parter. It seems too easy, and it was because they were setting a trap that would be sprung in "The Die is Cast."
This is a great episode... and I can't wait to see the ending, whenever they make it. My Synopsis: Thomas: Hi, I'm Tom Riker. You never expected to see me! I'm gonna ___________. // Kira: That's dumb. // Thomas: You're right. I quit. You can go back to ignoring me.
I was always disspointed that Gul Dukat never followed up on the sensor logs. I guess the writers could not figure out how to keep the secret of the fleet if they had an episode about Dukat looking into it. But think about it from Dukat's perspective... the balance of power between Central Command (the military) and the Obsidian Order (the secret police) is that the military gets the big guns and the KGB keeps blackmail on everyone. Without figuring it what the Obsidian Order is doing with ships, Central Command should immediately suspect that the balance of power between these two organizations is about to be broken.
You did miss one of my favourite character interactions in this episode. When an overworked Kira is pulled up by Bashir. She tries to shrug him off but Doctor Bashir is doing his duty. Sending her for timeout at the bar was lovely.
This episode is how to do episodic and over-arching plots right. This episode stands completely alone and can be watched with out having seen a single other episode or Star Trek; however, certain parts of the plot tie in to episodes earlier and later in the season as well as the general politics of the show as a whole. Likewise you don't need to have seen Defiant when watching Improbable Cause and The Die is Cast, the two episodes that have direct fallout from these events. It's a really fantastic balance that gives a little something for everyone.
way back when i first watched that ep, the exchange between riker and obrien promptly had me rifling through my memories “ohmegosh, what did i miss in tng??”
Tommy boy sure did his homework Get the ship? Bynnar maneuver Possible Cardassian buildup? Go full Ben Maxwell But the man knew when to quit ultimately
Dude when he pulled his side burns off, the first time I watched this episode, my mind was blown. Because I had never seen the episode of TNG where Thomas Riker had been introduced.
Honestly I’ve never quite shaken my first, original thought on watching this episode that something kinda did go down on the Enterprise when O’Brien left, and that maybe he thought it wasn’t THAT big of a deal but then Riker tosses it in his face and he’s like “oh ok yeah sorry”
Hey Steve, great review! I'm looking forward to your review of "Trials and Tribble-ations." I hope you might answer a question I have, either in that review or in a Not Actually Trek Actually. Given your dislike of Trek writers going out of their way to answer why the Klingons' appearance changed between TOS and modern Trek, would it have been funnier (or at least better) if when Worf appears in scenes set in the past, he just looked like a TOS era Klingon and everyone just played it straight?
My wife laughed very hard at the "I should have known something is up, when he didn't sleep with Kira". She calls him "Bumseriker", shagging Riker in German.
I love this episode! It's better than any episode of TNG, in my opinion! I love Steve's passionate, doting reviews. They make me so happy! Just wondering what you make of the attempt in this episode to "humanise" Dukat? I think it's great (though it doesn't redeem the character) and his speech about the cyclical nature of hatred is genuinely brilliant. Marc and Avery in particular absolutely kill it in this episode! Edit! Just got to the part of your video where you discuss this very subject. I'll slink away again now 🖖❤️
One of DS9’s better shows, for sure - a solid 8/10. Years ago, I wrote a short script of Sisko breaking the news about Tom Riker’s actions in this episode to Will Riker and Picard. I could never figure out what to do beyond the reveal, though. 😅
I'd say maybe the "most Deep Space Nine" episode of _Deep Space Nine_ second only to "In the Pale Moonlight" (which I gotta say, would make an _excellent_ Retro Review for you to do, unless you think you've already covered everything you have to say about that episode.) And as an aside, they _had_ to have gotten that title from the Joker's line in the 1989 _Batman,_ because I have never heard the phrase _anywhere_ else, before or since, except for that DS9 episode title. Thank you for these, Steve. They're really fun.
There's definitely an "In the Pale Moonlight" review coming at some point. Ideally, I'd like to review every episode from TOS through Enterprise in this format eventually. Even if I've covered an episode already in a Trek, Actually video, I'll still review it here because these are more straightforward reviews rather than video essays about particular questions or topics.
A Tom episode might have made a neat final season addition, where they could thematically just weave him in as they're liberating Cardassia, but they had so many plots they were juggling by that point it's understandable why it could have been a bit much for them.
Great review Steve, but I really just came here to make sure you don't completely lose your shit when you see the next episode of Picard, VOX. I won't spoil it here, but if you go back to your review of Surrender, you will see that I predicted the episode. That said, just remember it's just a show and to just relax.
I very much appreciate that Kira never takes the standard Star Trek position that “this is morally wrong and you shouldn’t do it! Please think of the innocent children!” Instead, her consistent position is “this is dumb, fighting this Cardassian fleet is a giant waste of time. You have better targets, it’s not your fight, why give a shit?”
9:06 'Crude pandering fan-service'.. I'm looking forward to your review of Picard: Vox. I am wondering how you'll opine the reveal of The Ship.. fan-service, or serves & propels the narrative
Given that apparently many of the returning TNG crew on Picard are interested in the idea of a spin off or some sort of continuation, who knows? We might get a Thomas Riker return. Frakes has certainly been killing it this season.
Head cannon: Tom Riker was either killed when the Changelings took "control" of Cardassia OR he was transferred to a Federation penal colony as part of the negotiations over rebuilding Cardassia post-Dominion...
The first time I saw this episode, I had only seen The Next Generation one time and didn't remember all the episodes, so when it turned out that Riker was actually Thomas Riker, I didn't remember who that was so the plot twist just ended up confusing me more than anything.
One of the DS9 PC games set during the Dominion War has a mission where you're leading a small squadron of ships to rescue Tom. Plus he showed up in some of the post series novels at least until someone went batshit and decided to wipe the universe the novels occured in from existence and alter history so it never existed at all. I think this might be the first episode where Sisko's background as an Engineer comes up. I'm all but certain this is the first time the fact he was one of the shipwrights that designed the Defiant was mentioned.
Watching this review in September 2024 and the events happening around the world reminds me just how much the Maquis/Cardassian stories were all about the Palestinian/Israel conflicts....and how DS9 is still relevant 30 years later. This episode doesn't resolve anything or tell us much about the Maquis/Cardassian conflict in the larger picture, but it reflects how much worse real world situations could be by the actions of just a few individuals. Both Thomas Riker & the Maquis on one side and the Obsidian Order on the other. DS9 really is the Best Star Trek.
Gotta say I agree about the fate of Thomas Riker: I don't think we *needed* a follow-up. That said, I would have been happy to see one during the Dominion War, even if it revealed he died in that Cardassian prison because of war or something. Trying to shove a follow-up into Picard would be a bad idea, especially given how little is left now, and anything else set during this period seems way too late.
Beta canon is the perfect spot for what happened after the Cardassian Rebellion. Thomas could have gotten out during that time, but there was no need to put a detail like that in the main show. That's where we need someone to write a novel on it. :)
I’m pretty sure Tom needed to shut down any conversation with O’Brien because O’Brien was the one person on DS9 who knew Will enough to ID him if he couldn’t keep up with Miles’ references to things that happened on the Enterprise.
Hot take but true. Will Riker is the most important character in TNG in the early seasons. He is the viewers avatar in the first 3 seasons, but the main focus shifts to picard after season 3
This is a good episode, but it is almost an exact remake of The Wounded, with Riker in the Captain Maxwell role, and Sisko, like Picard, helping the Cardassians chase him.
Given the events that closed DS9, it'd be reasonable to believe that Thomas Riker was freed shortly after. Going with that, it would had been somewhat appropriate for the Will Riker we encounter in Picard Season 1 to had been Tom instead, considering how ST:TNG Second Chances ended with him rekindling his relationship with Troi.
A thought about your last thought. Just because we never saw Riker rescued doesn't mean it didn't necessarily happen. They just never showed it. Lots of things must have happened that never got shown. So what? If people are hung up on the "we don't leave our people behind" ethos, they don't need to believe that Starfleet would leave Riker in a Cardassian prison.
Defiant was a pretty fun episode for people who like DS9 as well as TNG. It has enough for people to enjoy on both sides really. Even though it does things differently from TNG, which is kind of DS9's whole point of existing in the first place, there's more than enough for TNG lovers to latch on to and be curious about.
Thomas Riker knew he couldn't bluff his way through a friendly conversation with O'Brien so he pretended to hold a grudge about something to avoid revealing that he didn't really know O'Brien as well as Will Riker knows O'Brien.
I too am satisfied with the fate of Tom Riker. But there'll always be a tiny part of me that's sad because they never followed up on or brought closure to the Ensign Sito character, especially after Worf joined the cast. 😊
Easily my in top 10 episodes of DS9, the moment when it pans in on Dukats face when he realizes that the Maquis have the Defiant... he just chews up that whole scene.
I just started Voyager again after watching the whole of DS9...it's first season is pretty tame. I'm watching with a friend who had never seen Deep Space 9 & I'm kinda hoping he'll dig Voyager too, but it feels so wishy washy I'm wondering when the first really good episode occurs that you can declare it has real merit.
Tom Riker's rescue was likely hampered by the Klingon invasion, the subsequent Cardassian entry into the Dominion and the ensuing War for the Alpha Quadrent. It's possible that in the end of all of that he would have been freed from prison along with other Federation citizens, only to face a court martial for his actions with the Maki and the theft of the Defiant; none of which in and of themselves would be that compelling a watch in a hypothetical Season 8 unless it was lets say paired with a similar trial for the Maki aboard Voyager. The whole Tribunal and Justice episode could be interesting and perhaps the political implications could be brought into the story to add more to the drama.
I enjoyed this episode. But I have to point out this is the second time Thomas Riker kissed a woman without her consent. He did that to Troi in TNG-Second Chances and now Kira.
I take Riker brushing off O'Brian the same way, with the additional benefit that it gets someone who knows the real Will Riker off the board. Fooling people who only met Will briefly is one thing, but fooling someone who served with him for years is another.
You missed making the joke about Dukat, who looks a lot like Macet, being the one to point out that the Cardassian government wouldn't believe a story about transporter duplicates.
It is funny that this is the second time a Starfleet officer has commandeered a ship and ran it straight into Cardassian space to find out if the Cardassians were doing shady stuff. It is almost like the Cardassians are untrustworthy neighbors. Also, I suppose the Federation is also untrustworthy from the Cardassian perspective, since they have allowed to of their most advanced ships to be commandeered and, you know, invade Cardassian space...
DS9 really eschewed fan service well, while also paying tribute to what came before. Crossover - "You remember when Kirk went into the Mirror Universe? Yeah, his involvement actually made things worse" The Jem'Hadar - "You want what is essentially the Enterprise-D? Here, it gets blown up in minutes by the Dominion" Defiant - "You want a TNG reunion with Riker and company? SIKE, it's actually his evil transporter clone" Trials and Tribble-ations - "You want Kirk and Sisko teaming up? Sorry, not gonna happen" In the case of the latter, that was emblemised when Dax keeps fanboying over everything, and Sisko has to take her to one side and say "look yeah this is great and all but none of that is why we're here, so focus!"
It's supremely weird to me how you only have 143K subs at this point when you make some of the most clearly true-fan Trek material out there. The only people I'd put above you is RedLetterMedia and well... they're RedLetterMedia so that's high praise since they're by far my favourite channel on TH-cam and since they don't only do Trek related stuff they naturally have a bigger audience... and are an entire team. I dunno how well you two get on I can see how some of your takes and theirs may lead to disagreements but I love keeping up with both of ya
Great episode, and a telling contrast to Enterprise's finale, when Riker was brought in to steal their last hurrah and made their ending all about him and Troi. Two very different guest starring episodes, with this one showing how to do it right.
I was gonna criticise your use of the plural vs the singular "Alumnus", but I guess if we count Frakes as both Will and Tom, then he'd *technically* qualify as TNG Alumni...
Good Trek is good Trek. It doesn't matter if it's TOS, TNG, DS9, Enterprise or Picard. We need to stop getting hung up on which "Gen" it's from. I believe Shakespeare plays are still performed because the stories are good and relevant, since greed, lust, jealousy and all other human emotions haven't changed
When Dukat says his son will "look back on it with hatred" he neglects to say "because that's the person I'm raising him to be." It never crosses Dukat's mind that he could explain the situation to his child or give him a nuanced view of the galaxy, because teaching his son those things wouldn't benefit him or Cardassia.
I absolutely adore the dramatic reveal when "Riker" takes off his sideburns to reveal his evil goatee. Star Trek has done comedy well on a number of occasions, but I still think that that's probably the most hilarious event in the franchise. It's perfect.
Yes, callback to Mirror Spock, no less.
I love the fact that mystery fleet is the one that attacked the Founder homeworld and was ultimately doomed.
I always took Tom quickly getting rid of O'brien being an attempt to save his cover. The last thing he needs is for him to start asking questions about how Lieutenant Whatserface is handling working in the transporter room now and if Ensign Whatshisname got that promotion he was trying for.
But yeah, making sure there aren't any more crew around than necessary makes sense too.
That's what I always took that to be too.
Trivia: Tom Riker describes The Defiant as a "tough, little ship" which Will Riker also describes it as the same thing in Star Trek: First Contact (to Worf's annoyance). Also the supporting Maquis character, Kalita from TNG's "Preemptive Strike" is at the helm of the Defiant in this episode. Also, also: Lakarian City (where Dukat wanted to take his son) is mentioned in this episode and it was leveled to the ground in "What You Leave Behind". Yes, I have no life and I've made peace with that.
Preemptive Strike is maybe my joint favourite TNG episode. I always liked that Defiant connected back to it.
@@AndrewD8Red Me too!
You have a life. You just spend a lot of time on your hobbies. Welcome to the human race.
Oh wow, I never caught that both Wil and Thomas used the "Tough little ship" phrase to refer to the _Defiant,_ that's a really cool little touch!
You not only have a life, you also have excellent taste.
I always took the O’Brian conversation to be about making sure he didn’t end up in a ‘Hey do you remember when…..’ situation since he definitely didn’t remember and tipping him off that something was wrong.
And it helps that O’Brien is an enlisted man, because that makes “senior officer being weird to me” not actually all that weird. Senior officers just do that sometimes, it might not register as out of character right away
But yeah, I agree that the main goal with the O’Brien conversation is to get him out of the way, since he’s the only person on the station who knows the real Riker personally and who would notice if he starts tap dancing
To this day I thought the two of them ended on bad terms but what you said makes complete sense. I never thought of that.
Of course. That would screw up his plan to steal the Defiant.
Same. The transporter accident predated Riker knowing O’Brien, so any past reference whatsoever would give him away.
I always thought Thomas Riker's hostility towards O'Brien was due to the fact that Miles used to be a transporter chief and well you know.
ha! i never thought of that
This episode cemented Dukat as the franchise's best villain by miles. The scenes with Dukat and Sisko are fantastic.
Tom and Kira's back and forth on Defiant is brilliant, too.
Plus, it reinforced the Obsidian Order as the season's villains... and the hints that the Tal'Shiar were involved.
Tom more than likely wanted O'Brien to piss off as quickly as possible because he's the only person who could possibly recognize he wasn't Will Riker.
Thomas pulling off the sideburns was so hilarious and campy.
I always thought that Tom was dismissive of O'Brien because O'Brien would have shared knowledge with Will that Tom wouldn't, so he'd figure out it was not Will and raise the alarm before he could steal the ship. Best way to deal with O'Brien being there was to just get him out of there asap.
I thought the reason Riker anapped at O'Brien was not just to get him off the ship but to avoid risking O'Brien seeing the differences which could ruin the whole plan.
One of the other "most Deep Space Nine" elements is that fleet being a part of the larger season plot culminating in the attack on the Founders.
The couldn't even have a guest spot episode without adding to the larger world of storytelling.
Actually, the secret Cardassian fleet harkens back to the O'Brien focused TNG episode, where Captain Maxwell is attacking Cardassian ships and the Enterprise had to stop him.
I love the scene where Odo & Sisko are explaining the plot to Dukat, and he just says:
"This is a very entertaining story but...why am I listening to it?"
Y’know what might be an interesting story to revisit Tom Riker’s fate?
The waning days of the Dominion war, Tom gets approached by one of the camp guards who recruits him into Damar’s Cardassian resistance movement. He almost refuses until the guard passes on a message from Kira, something like “I keep my promises Tom. If you do this you’ll be helping the Federation as well as Cardassia.”
Tom survives the war and afterwards decides to stay on Cardassia to help rebuild. Ten or twenty years go by and Gul Riker is in command of a Cardassian ship. Cue whatever story you want to tell with that setup.
Ira Behr said in an interview that he did want to bring Thomas Riker back for a multi-episode story arc. But Jonathan Frakes would have only been able to return for one episode, so Behr decided not to bring Thomas back since he didn't think one episode was enough for his story.
The thing about Dukat telling Sisko that his son will look back at this day with hatred is that Dukat is probably going to be the one to tell his son that an unprovoked attack from murderous Maquis terrorists backed by the Federation was what kept him away that day.
Exactly. I totally agree. I wonder if Trump ever watched DS9 and related to Dukat. They are both egotistical leaders who feel they can do no wrong.
Also one of the most DS9 DS9 episodes because of the callbacks to earlier episodes that happen organically, as well as subtle follow-ups later in the series:
- Obviously a follow-up of the TNG episode "Second Chances". It's also mentions that Will Riker won big at Quark's, so much so that he has to be paid with vouchers, as previously mentioned in the TNG episode "Firstborn" (How Tom Riker knows about that is a huge mystery)
- Dukat is somehow still on the station after the events of "Civil Defense" (head canon is that "Meridian" took place before rather than after "Civil Defense"), an episode setting up that Dukat hates the Obsidian Order and that the feeling is mutual
- Tom Riker calls the Defiant a tough little ship, which Will Riker also calls it in First Contact. Worf takes offense to that moniker in the latter instance.
- And the big one: That secret Obsidian Order fleet in the Orias System is being used by Enabran Tain to preemptively eradicate the Founders later in Season 3
That secret Cardassian fleet is also mentioned at the end of the very first TNG episode to feature the Cardassians, "The Wounded." The episode where Captain Maxwell is attacking Cardassian ships in Cardassian space. And O'Brien served under him at Setlik III.
It's also totally possible that the DS9 crew (or other group) rescued Tom Riker, but no episode was made about it. Plenty of things happen that we never see on-screen. If someone's really upset about it, that's what fanfic is for. :)
I'd like to think they got him out, but in the most mundane way ever as the third footnote on some legal agreement where the federation gave them a moon and returned a couple of old ships they'd captured and the Cardassians agreed to recognise the federation's claim to some L class planet they already had hold of anyway, gave them back a runabout, a couple of scientific probes they nicked and, oh right, that one ex-starfleet officer who tried to take out a fleet with a stolen ship that one time.
In Star Trek Online, there was a mission where we met Tom's son, still in a Cardassian prison just like dad. We learn Tom died in prison, and we help Tom Jr. escape. The mission has been removed since.
@@albertmartinez2539 Wow, what a sad story. I wonder why the mission was removed.
@@wezul over half of the missions are just gone, as the storyline morphs and shifts to keep up with new canon, and sometimes it’s just for technical reasons (early missions can be pretty janky compared to newer ones). It’s a thing with all long running MMOs
@@kaitlyn__L I'm still playing City of Heroes, and all of the missions are available, even the janky ones from 2004. Anything removed from "regular" gameplay is available via the Flashback system, with very few exceptions. And not a whole lot has been removed from regular gameplay overall, just more stuff added. It's pretty cool. :)
Tom Riker removing the sides of his beard is somehow incredibly badass and hilariously ridiculous at the same time
A corndog worth of Thanks!
And thank YOU!
Thomas Riker is still alive when Garak takes over Cardassia prime, and his sentence ends up converted to "hang out with the president of Cardassia a bunch."
I figure it'd probably be like the "comfortable imprisonment" Picard was offered in Chain of Command. Maybe trade him back to the Federation in exchange for humanitarian aid after a few years.
The video upscaling method you use looks wild some times, like @5:19 on Kira's eyes
Hey Steve! Love the videos! Thank you for all you work and passion!
Thomas Riker (to Kira, re: the Defiant, in this episode): "Tough little ship."
William Riker (to Worf, re: the Defiant, in First Contact): "Tough little ship."
This episode reminds me a lot of "The Wounded" - where a Federation officer was taking a highly powered ship into Cardassian space to uncover secrets about their military movements. Many very good parallels.
I must admit that, at the time Defiant first aired, I also noticed the plot similarities to TNG's The Wounded. So much so, that I kind of wrote this one off as basically a retread, where DS9's writers were taking advantage of a loose end character from TNG in the hopes of generating some extra drama/conflict.
"Defiant" also pays off something that happened in "The Search" I and II. The Founders let the Defiant go in that two-parter. It seems too easy, and it was because they were setting a trap that would be sprung in "The Die is Cast."
Riker not getting a death sentence might be a worse outcome with the Cardassians...
This is a great episode... and I can't wait to see the ending, whenever they make it. My Synopsis: Thomas: Hi, I'm Tom Riker. You never expected to see me! I'm gonna ___________. // Kira: That's dumb. // Thomas: You're right. I quit. You can go back to ignoring me.
Steve thanks very much for doing these retro reviews. You have excellent taste in episodes. I look forward to the next!
I was always disspointed that Gul Dukat never followed up on the sensor logs. I guess the writers could not figure out how to keep the secret of the fleet if they had an episode about Dukat looking into it. But think about it from Dukat's perspective... the balance of power between Central Command (the military) and the Obsidian Order (the secret police) is that the military gets the big guns and the KGB keeps blackmail on everyone. Without figuring it what the Obsidian Order is doing with ships, Central Command should immediately suspect that the balance of power between these two organizations is about to be broken.
You did miss one of my favourite character interactions in this episode. When an overworked Kira is pulled up by Bashir. She tries to shrug him off but Doctor Bashir is doing his duty. Sending her for timeout at the bar was lovely.
This episode is how to do episodic and over-arching plots right. This episode stands completely alone and can be watched with out having seen a single other episode or Star Trek; however, certain parts of the plot tie in to episodes earlier and later in the season as well as the general politics of the show as a whole. Likewise you don't need to have seen Defiant when watching Improbable Cause and The Die is Cast, the two episodes that have direct fallout from these events. It's a really fantastic balance that gives a little something for everyone.
The tagline suggestion is actually VERY clever! 🤣
way back when i first watched that ep, the exchange between riker and obrien promptly had me rifling through my memories “ohmegosh, what did i miss in tng??”
I watched this episode at 5AM today. I really wish BBC America would show DS9 at a decent hour for the east coast.
Tommy boy sure did his homework
Get the ship? Bynnar maneuver
Possible Cardassian buildup? Go full Ben Maxwell
But the man knew when to quit ultimately
I did love Defiant. The interesting interplay between Dukat and Korinas was one of my favourite parts.
Thanks
And thank YOU!
Dude when he pulled his side burns off, the first time I watched this episode, my mind was blown. Because I had never seen the episode of TNG where Thomas Riker had been introduced.
Honestly I’ve never quite shaken my first, original thought on watching this episode that something kinda did go down on the Enterprise when O’Brien left, and that maybe he thought it wasn’t THAT big of a deal but then Riker tosses it in his face and he’s like “oh ok yeah sorry”
Steve I would love to see you play the STO Game, and find Thomas Riker.
The obsidian order thing is my favorite part. The fact that the agent knows that in a facist state, laws and restrictions mean dickall.
Hey Steve, great review! I'm looking forward to your review of "Trials and Tribble-ations." I hope you might answer a question I have, either in that review or in a Not Actually Trek Actually. Given your dislike of Trek writers going out of their way to answer why the Klingons' appearance changed between TOS and modern Trek, would it have been funnier (or at least better) if when Worf appears in scenes set in the past, he just looked like a TOS era Klingon and everyone just played it straight?
It's so cool to be able to hear about DS9 nowdays. In my city, only one other person knows about DS9 besides me, at least, it seems like that.
My wife laughed very hard at the "I should have known something is up, when he didn't sleep with Kira". She calls him "Bumseriker", shagging Riker in German.
There was a sequel to this episode, in which Will Riker, to prove who he is, shags Kira. This was how Jack Harkness was conceived.
I love this episode! It's better than any episode of TNG, in my opinion!
I love Steve's passionate, doting reviews. They make me so happy!
Just wondering what you make of the attempt in this episode to "humanise" Dukat? I think it's great (though it doesn't redeem the character) and his speech about the cyclical nature of hatred is genuinely brilliant. Marc and Avery in particular absolutely kill it in this episode!
Edit!
Just got to the part of your video where you discuss this very subject. I'll slink away again now 🖖❤️
One of DS9’s better shows, for sure - a solid 8/10. Years ago, I wrote a short script of Sisko breaking the news about Tom Riker’s actions in this episode to Will Riker and Picard. I could never figure out what to do beyond the reveal, though. 😅
Steve, would "Blood Oath" be on the rest of these crossover reviews? It was considered an event of media note when it happened in 1994.
I'm surprised the writers of Picard haven't incorporated some uninspired Thomas Riker twist into a plot line somehow
Thanks, you've motivated me to re-watch some Star Trek I enjoy until Strange New Worlds series 2 premieres.
I'd say maybe the "most Deep Space Nine" episode of _Deep Space Nine_ second only to "In the Pale Moonlight" (which I gotta say, would make an _excellent_ Retro Review for you to do, unless you think you've already covered everything you have to say about that episode.) And as an aside, they _had_ to have gotten that title from the Joker's line in the 1989 _Batman,_ because I have never heard the phrase _anywhere_ else, before or since, except for that DS9 episode title.
Thank you for these, Steve. They're really fun.
There's definitely an "In the Pale Moonlight" review coming at some point. Ideally, I'd like to review every episode from TOS through Enterprise in this format eventually. Even if I've covered an episode already in a Trek, Actually video, I'll still review it here because these are more straightforward reviews rather than video essays about particular questions or topics.
@@SteveShives Nice, I look forward to them. Hearing your thoughts on some of the "O'Brien Must Suffer" episodes should be fun, too.
I had suspected that the buildup for war ships by the Obsidian Order was part of their plans to destroy the Founders hope planet.
A Tom episode might have made a neat final season addition, where they could thematically just weave him in as they're liberating Cardassia, but they had so many plots they were juggling by that point it's understandable why it could have been a bit much for them.
Great review Steve, but I really just came here to make sure you don't completely lose your shit when you see the next episode of Picard, VOX. I won't spoil it here, but if you go back to your review of Surrender, you will see that I predicted the episode. That said, just remember it's just a show and to just relax.
I very much appreciate that Kira never takes the standard Star Trek position that “this is morally wrong and you shouldn’t do it! Please think of the innocent children!” Instead, her consistent position is “this is dumb, fighting this Cardassian fleet is a giant waste of time. You have better targets, it’s not your fight, why give a shit?”
9:06 'Crude pandering fan-service'.. I'm looking forward to your review of Picard: Vox.
I am wondering how you'll opine the reveal of The Ship.. fan-service, or serves & propels the narrative
Given that apparently many of the returning TNG crew on Picard are interested in the idea of a spin off or some sort of continuation, who knows? We might get a Thomas Riker return. Frakes has certainly been killing it this season.
Head cannon: Tom Riker was either killed when the Changelings took "control" of Cardassia OR he was transferred to a Federation penal colony as part of the negotiations over rebuilding Cardassia post-Dominion...
The first time I saw this episode, I had only seen The Next Generation one time and didn't remember all the episodes, so when it turned out that Riker was actually Thomas Riker, I didn't remember who that was so the plot twist just ended up confusing me more than anything.
One of the DS9 PC games set during the Dominion War has a mission where you're leading a small squadron of ships to rescue Tom. Plus he showed up in some of the post series novels at least until someone went batshit and decided to wipe the universe the novels occured in from existence and alter history so it never existed at all.
I think this might be the first episode where Sisko's background as an Engineer comes up. I'm all but certain this is the first time the fact he was one of the shipwrights that designed the Defiant was mentioned.
Watching this review in September 2024 and the events happening around the world reminds me just how much the Maquis/Cardassian stories were all about the Palestinian/Israel conflicts....and how DS9 is still relevant 30 years later. This episode doesn't resolve anything or tell us much about the Maquis/Cardassian conflict in the larger picture, but it reflects how much worse real world situations could be by the actions of just a few individuals. Both Thomas Riker & the Maquis on one side and the Obsidian Order on the other. DS9 really is the Best Star Trek.
Gotta say I agree about the fate of Thomas Riker: I don't think we *needed* a follow-up. That said, I would have been happy to see one during the Dominion War, even if it revealed he died in that Cardassian prison because of war or something. Trying to shove a follow-up into Picard would be a bad idea, especially given how little is left now, and anything else set during this period seems way too late.
Beta canon is the perfect spot for what happened after the Cardassian Rebellion. Thomas could have gotten out during that time, but there was no need to put a detail like that in the main show. That's where we need someone to write a novel on it. :)
I’m pretty sure Tom needed to shut down any conversation with O’Brien because O’Brien was the one person on DS9 who knew Will enough to ID him if he couldn’t keep up with Miles’ references to things that happened on the Enterprise.
Tom Riker might need a good Starfleet lawyer to get him out.
Hot take but true.
Will Riker is the most important character in TNG in the early seasons.
He is the viewers avatar in the first 3 seasons, but the main focus shifts to picard after season 3
always loved these episodes where Dukat and Sisko team up
KIRA: "You're being reckless!"
TOM: "Who said that?"
This is a good episode, but it is almost an exact remake of The Wounded, with Riker in the Captain Maxwell role, and Sisko, like Picard, helping the Cardassians chase him.
Given the events that closed DS9, it'd be reasonable to believe that Thomas Riker was freed shortly after. Going with that, it would had been somewhat appropriate for the Will Riker we encounter in Picard Season 1 to had been Tom instead, considering how ST:TNG Second Chances ended with him rekindling his relationship with Troi.
A thought about your last thought. Just because we never saw Riker rescued doesn't mean it didn't necessarily happen. They just never showed it. Lots of things must have happened that never got shown. So what? If people are hung up on the "we don't leave our people behind" ethos, they don't need to believe that Starfleet would leave Riker in a Cardassian prison.
Defiant was a pretty fun episode for people who like DS9 as well as TNG. It has enough for people to enjoy on both sides really. Even though it does things differently from TNG, which is kind of DS9's whole point of existing in the first place, there's more than enough for TNG lovers to latch on to and be curious about.
Thomas Riker knew he couldn't bluff his way through a friendly conversation with O'Brien so he pretended to hold a grudge about something to avoid revealing that he didn't really know O'Brien as well as Will Riker knows O'Brien.
Thomas Riker for Lower Decks.😂
It also revealed in retrospect that the Dominion first attacked Cardassia in a place for families.
Will is the transporter clone - technically Thomas existed before the clone was created
I too am satisfied with the fate of Tom Riker. But there'll always be a tiny part of me that's sad because they never followed up on or brought closure to the Ensign Sito character, especially after Worf joined the cast. 😊
Easily my in top 10 episodes of DS9, the moment when it pans in on Dukats face when he realizes that the Maquis have the Defiant... he just chews up that whole scene.
I just started Voyager again after watching the whole of DS9...it's first season is pretty tame.
I'm watching with a friend who had never seen Deep Space 9 & I'm kinda hoping he'll dig Voyager too, but it feels so wishy washy I'm wondering when the first really good episode occurs that you can declare it has real merit.
Look up narcissist in a dictionary. There's Dukat 🖖🏼
Actually Trump would be there first, followed by Dukat. Life imitates art, even though we knew of Dukat first.
This must have been recorded before Picard episode 9 aired, because his head surely exploded after that.
Tom Riker's rescue was likely hampered by the Klingon invasion, the subsequent Cardassian entry into the Dominion and the ensuing War for the Alpha Quadrent. It's possible that in the end of all of that he would have been freed from prison along with other Federation citizens, only to face a court martial for his actions with the Maki and the theft of the Defiant; none of which in and of themselves would be that compelling a watch in a hypothetical Season 8 unless it was lets say paired with a similar trial for the Maki aboard Voyager. The whole Tribunal and Justice episode could be interesting and perhaps the political implications could be brought into the story to add more to the drama.
I enjoyed this episode. But I have to point out this is the second time Thomas Riker kissed a woman without her consent. He did that to Troi in TNG-Second Chances and now Kira.
That false beard detail is so weird. Like someone on DS9 is gonna say "Your beards isn't right. You can't be the real Riker!",
Literally best star trek moment is when duplicate Riker peels off his beard.
In these days of The Trek Extended Universe Tom should get his own series.
Or at least a TV movie.
Peter David got Tom Riker out, in Imzadi II. But that was a novel. Great one, though.
I take Riker brushing off O'Brian the same way, with the additional benefit that it gets someone who knows the real Will Riker off the board. Fooling people who only met Will briefly is one thing, but fooling someone who served with him for years is another.
You missed making the joke about Dukat, who looks a lot like Macet, being the one to point out that the Cardassian government wouldn't believe a story about transporter duplicates.
It is funny that this is the second time a Starfleet officer has commandeered a ship and ran it straight into Cardassian space to find out if the Cardassians were doing shady stuff. It is almost like the Cardassians are untrustworthy neighbors. Also, I suppose the Federation is also untrustworthy from the Cardassian perspective, since they have allowed to of their most advanced ships to be commandeered and, you know, invade Cardassian space...
Maxwell didn't commandeer the Phoenix...🙄🙄🙄
Oh no!
His sidebeard!
I dunno, I think it would have been really interesting to have Tom turn up during the "Kira on Cardassia" arc in the last season.
DS9 really eschewed fan service well, while also paying tribute to what came before.
Crossover - "You remember when Kirk went into the Mirror Universe? Yeah, his involvement actually made things worse"
The Jem'Hadar - "You want what is essentially the Enterprise-D? Here, it gets blown up in minutes by the Dominion"
Defiant - "You want a TNG reunion with Riker and company? SIKE, it's actually his evil transporter clone"
Trials and Tribble-ations - "You want Kirk and Sisko teaming up? Sorry, not gonna happen"
In the case of the latter, that was emblemised when Dax keeps fanboying over everything, and Sisko has to take her to one side and say "look yeah this is great and all but none of that is why we're here, so focus!"
I don't know her exact wording, but a "We'll get you out of there" could also just mean pulling strings behind the scenes and off screen.
It's supremely weird to me how you only have 143K subs at this point when you make some of the most clearly true-fan Trek material out there. The only people I'd put above you is RedLetterMedia and well... they're RedLetterMedia so that's high praise since they're by far my favourite channel on TH-cam and since they don't only do Trek related stuff they naturally have a bigger audience... and are an entire team. I dunno how well you two get on I can see how some of your takes and theirs may lead to disagreements but I love keeping up with both of ya
I always assumed that Tom got shanked within the first month in that prison. There's no way the cardassians would let him live.
Great episode, and a telling contrast to Enterprise's finale, when Riker was brought in to steal their last hurrah and made their ending all about him and Troi. Two very different guest starring episodes, with this one showing how to do it right.
I was gonna criticise your use of the plural vs the singular "Alumnus", but I guess if we count Frakes as both Will and Tom, then he'd *technically* qualify as TNG Alumni...
I still can't fully accept the fact that my generation of Star Trek is now "Retro"...
Good Trek is good Trek. It doesn't matter if it's TOS, TNG, DS9, Enterprise or Picard. We need to stop getting hung up on which "Gen" it's from. I believe Shakespeare plays are still performed because the stories are good and relevant, since greed, lust, jealousy and all other human emotions haven't changed