Its even in the ten commandments: Deu 5 21 ‘You shall not covet your neighbor’s wife, nor desire your neighbor’s house, his field, his male *slave or his female slave,* his ox, his donkey, or anything that belongs to your neighbor
Not just US slavery, but christians around the world for the majority of the 2000 yrs of christian history used those verses in the bible as their foundational guide and justification of slavery. They also used the bible as their guide and justification of genocide. Modern day christian apologists like to lie and say atheists are misinterpreting the bible. Yet ignore the fact that this is exactly how christians interpreted and practised chattel slavery as per the bible.
Sorry, you guys were too nice on the debate, which turned into philosophical work backwards (since they had to speak a lot more than what you and Dr. Josh did). Thank you for taking the time to post this video! 😊
Totally agree, it was very difficult for me to watch it till the end. My patience towards Abrahamic Slaveholder- massmurder Cult members is over. I can't listen anymore to their BS, justifications of cruelties and barbarism.
I completely agree. The apologists wanted to paint their god as a endlessly patient entity allowing his followers to learn over time. How does this fit with almost every old testament narrative of the vengeful god committing mass genocide from the flood, killing babies to win a war/dispute against the Egyptians and murdering two whole towns full of women, pregnant women and children? Even if you take specifics, Lot's wife was killed just for looking back toward the town where her older married children and grandchildren were being brutally killed for example. Hardly evidence of a compassionate patient being.
Something that did not occur to me until now is that having two sets of rules actually makes it worse for the slaves rather than being some sort of glide path to freedom. It actually increases the indignity of being a slave under the worse set of rules by highlighting the fact that those under that set of rules are lesser.
I believe that women are still dealing with society control issues because individual freedom is not emphasize for women. For an example: That's is the biggest problem with Girl Scouts compared to Boy Scouts. It's amazing how many women tear down another woman for being and/or doing something that is outside the social standards for a woman. I know that men does this too, but women doing this to each other is like shooting yourself in the foot. Hopefully in the future, women will be able to have individual freedom to fully develop their individual personality. (I'm not saying every woman doesn't have a developed individual personality; However, there is a lot of women in this situation. ) Right now, I have 3 cats. Each cat has a different personality. I treat each cat differently based on their personality; however, I still treat them as cats. I believe it is the same for humans. I'm an engineer, and I don't encounter that many women in the field. I don't know if that is because the difference between women and men or it's social issue. I just know that there was few women in my engineering classes. I know that the women can go through Engineering classes because the same women at the beginning is the same at the end. No drop outs. I worked with a few engineering women. What I am saying is that women were able to become engineers, but choose not to. I have no idea why.
A christian wedding even today, a man gives the bride away. And before that, ask the father for the daughters hand. Its amazing how ingrained it is in our society, and most of us dont notice. I never noticed till a year or so back.
@@TheScotsalan I know. Christians say that it is tradition. Following a tradition for the sake of tradition is a horrible idea. However, following a tradition that has been adjusted to the current society gives everyone participating an anchor to the past. For an example: When an older married couple watches someone else's wedding, they remember their own wedding. For some odd reason, Christians stopped adjusting their traditions to match society, and even went backwards. I bet that most young Christian couples today thinks that Weddings are just a show that they have to perform, and the content doesn't matter. The reason for this is that the Christian wedding is so far removed from today's society.
@@QQuandary If a christian wedding is far removed from todays society, I can think of loads of reasons why thats a good thing 👍. I am married thrice, had 2 christian weddings, and one secular commie wedding 😂.
@@QQuandary A few months back, as an aside, a theist asked me why I, as an aethiest, am so against religion. Why dont I just live and let live etc. I replied.. well, being a Scotsman, brought up in Scotland, I cant think of hardly anything the kirk did not have influence over. From when ferries sail, to when I can buy a beer, to when I can fly fish for trout in a river. I reckon the only good thing the Church done.. double time Sundays 😂😂😂🤝👍
Fun watching you speed read that last night. Great presentation, but I think you nailed the argument in the first 30 seconds of that power point. That was too easy for you and Dr. Josh!
Dr. Kipp... Your honest, sober and scholarly statement on this should be enough to convince any rational and reasonable person interested in this topic, yet the indoctrinated will go to great lengths, including outright dishonesty and lying, to try to reduce it to what the Dark Knight said when his arm was literally chopped off his body in _Monty Python and the Holy Grail: "Tis just a flesh wound"_ . These exact same sentiments apply equally to Dr. Josh too...
Yup. I had discussions in comments of the dabate vid, and the theists do flat out lie at times. I just dont get it. Just admit it, the bible condones slavery. But they cant.
I am in chapter three of the "Atheist Handbook to the Old Testament," I think the slavery chapter is six, so I will be looking forward to getting the context more clearly. Also excited for vol 2. Whenever that drops. I need to find out what Dr. Kipp's books to read? The debate was better than most I have watched on this topic. The whole" meta narrative" was clever, but the way Dr. Kipp asked, "...who gets to interpret that narrative?" was outstanding.
Josh's second volume is out. All of my books (so far) are academic publications and thus, far too expensive to purchase. But, you can find a bunch for free online.
"I will sell your sons and daughters to the people of Judah,and they will sell them to the Sabeans,to a distant nation,for the Lord has spoken. (Joel 3:8 ) "If they accept your offer and open their gates,all the people in that city will become your slaves and "be FORCED to work for you.." ( Deut.20:11 ) "Therefore you are cursed and will always be slaves-woodcutters and water carriers for the house of my God. ( Josh.9:23 ). "Your sons and daughters will be snatched away from you as slaves." ( Deut.28:41 ) "You will watch as your sons and daughters are taken away as slaves.Your heart will break with longing for them,but you will not be able to help them.( Deut.28:32 ) "Solomon imposed forced labor on them." ( 2 Cor.8:8 )
I could not watch that debate till the end. It is hard to watch grown men to twist and turn things to match their moral and cognitive dissonance. Still, it was great to see how both of you waited calmly and refuted properly.
I still can't understand how your opponents in this debate could possibly say that slavery was not condoned. There is no doubt about and was no argument against there being debt slavery in the Bible. Even if you concede the point of chattel slavery (which you should not), slavery existed. It's said that this was a safety net for Israelites that had fallen on hard times. Regardless of why it existed, it existed. There was never at any point any alternative given for it. As far as we can tell from the Bible, this practice continued up until Jesus' time and even beyond. If there are no laws ending the practice by way of a different system being put into place, how is it not possible that Yahweh, and thus his people, considered this type slavery of perfectly permissable. This is pretty much the definition of "condone".
This is a very valuable summary: I would only like to raise a general point on these debates. Since the debaters are frequently North American, the model of slavery brought before the audience seems always to be that of the ante-bellum South in their country, which raises the emotional tone - and the stakes. It might be more fruitful to wrench the gaze away from that appalling historical situation and to focus instead on the classical one. This would produce a much better mental context for debate.
The simple fact is unless you were a male hebrew it was chattle slavery. Even then they could be trapped into chattle slavery. It was and is a disgusting system still practiced in the middle east and africa by islam and corporations.
Biblical endorsement is one of the reasons western slavery lasted as long as it did. I don't understand how black people can cling so tightly to a mythology that allowed their captivity.
I've heard the arguments that Biblical slavery wasn't as bad as Antebellum slavery. Yet there are people claiming that Antebellum slavery wasn't that bad... just sort of 'working for your room and board.' There's a video of a Trump supporter saying something like that.
You missed Matt 5:18. The bit where Jesus said not one iota of the law will change. He did not say, I wont change the law, apart from the slave stuff. Nope, he said the law wont change. So lets assume the 513 or so mosaic laws still apply 😂😳
Nergal-ah-usur, son of Iqisa, said to Ninurta-uballit, son of Bel-usat, as follows: "Take my small daughter Sullea-tasme and keep her alive, she shall be your slave! Give me 6 shekels of silver so that I may give for my ... and that I may eat." From the "Siege-Documents" from Nippur. Slavery is always a personal tragedy.
Doc Kipp. Is there any way you and Derick can allow posting a link this vid in the comments of the original debate. I am still deep in debates on that thread, and being able to post this would be good. 👍
I watched a bit of the debate, and I did kind of feel sorry for the apologists... Trying to defend stuff like this as anything more than a product of the culture in which these stories were told sounds like an absolute nightmare.
*Slavery* Except for murder, slavery has got to be one of the most immoral things a person can do. *Yet slavery is rampant throughout the Bible in both the Old and New Testaments. The Bible clearly approves of slavery in many passages, and it goes so far as to tell how to obtain slaves, how hard you can beat them, and when you can have sex with the female slaves.* Many Jews and Christians will try to ignore the moral problems of slavery by saying that these slaves were actually servants or indentured servants. Many translations of the Bible use the word “servant”, “bondservant”, or “manservant” instead of “slave” to make the Bible seem less immoral than it really is. While many slaves may have worked as household servants, that doesn’t mean that they were not slaves who were bought, sold, and treated worse than livestock. *The following passage shows that slaves are clearly property to be bought and sold like livestock.* However, you may purchase male or female *slaves* from among the foreigners who live among you. You may also purchase the children of such resident foreigners, including those who have been born in your land. *You may treat them as your property, passing them on to your children as a permanent inheritance. You may treat your slaves like this,* but the people of Israel, your relatives, must never be treated this way. (Leviticus 25:44-46 NLT) *The following passage describes how the Hebrew slaves are to be treated.* If you buy a Hebrew *slave,* he is to serve for only six years. Set him free in the seventh year, and he will owe you nothing for his freedom. If he was single when he became your *slave* and then married afterward, only he will go free in the seventh year. But if he was married before he became a *slave,* then his wife will be freed with him. If his master gave him a wife while he was a *slave,* and they had sons or daughters, then the man will be free in the seventh year, but his wife and children will still belong to his master. But the *slave* may plainly declare, ‘I love my master, my wife, and my children. I would rather not go free.’ If he does this, his master must present him before God. Then his master must take him to the door and publicly pierce his ear with an awl. After that, the *slave* will belong to his master forever. (Exodus 21:2-6 NLT) *Notice how they can get a male Hebrew slave to become a permanent slave by keeping his wife and children hostage until he says he wants to become a permanent slave.* What kind of family values are these? The following passage describes the sickening practice of *sex slavery.* How can anyone think it is moral to sell your own daughter as a *sex slave?* When a man sells his daughter as a *slave,* she will not be freed at the end of six years as the men are. If she does not please the man who bought her, he may allow her to be bought back again. But he is not allowed to sell her to foreigners, since he is the one who broke the contract with her. And if the *slave* girl’s owner arranges for her to marry his son, he may no longer treat her as a *slave* girl, but he must treat her as his daughter. If he himself marries her and then takes another wife, he may not reduce her food or clothing or fail to sleep with her as his wife. If he fails in any of these three ways, she may leave as a free woman without making any payment. (Exodus 21:7-11 NLT) So these are the Bible family values! *A man can buy as many sex slaves as he wants as long as he feeds them, clothes them, and has sex with them!* What does the Bible say about beating slaves? *It says you can beat both male and female slaves with a rod so hard that as long as they don’t die right away you are cleared of any wrong doing.* When a man strikes his male or female *slave* with a rod so hard that the *slave* dies under his hand, he shall be punished. If, however, the *slave* survives for a day or two, he is not to be punished, since the *slave* is his own property. (Exodus 21:20-21 NAB) You would think that Jesus and the New Testament would have a different view of slavery, *but slavery is still approved of in the New Testament,* as the following passages show. *Slaves,* obey your earthly masters with deep respect and fear. Serve them sincerely as you would serve Christ. (Ephesians 6:5 NLT) Christians who are *slaves* should give their masters full respect so that the name of God and his teaching will not be shamed. If your master is a Christian, that is no excuse for being disrespectful. You should work all the harder because you are helping another believer by your efforts. Teach these truths, Timothy, and encourage everyone to obey them. (1 Timothy 6:1-2 NLT) In the following parable, *Jesus clearly approves of beating slaves even if they didn’t know they were doing anything wrong.* The *servant* will be severely punished, for though he knew his duty, he refused to do it. “But people who are not aware that they are doing wrong will be punished only lightly. Much is required from those to whom much is given, and much more is required from those to whom much more is given.” (Luke 12:47-48 NLT)
@Kipp Davis er Dr. Kill *Your debate with Dr. Josh was excellent both for your Biblical/Hebrrew Provenance & for the lively comment debates occurring in the side bar. Was hard to mod & try to comment to pod cast but I'll take this over a Tovia Singer hate fest any day of the week. I was particularly struck by the cognitive dissidence displayed by the apologists who I AM sure felt that they did very well but their answers were extremely apologetic to the point that I AM not sure they were trying to defend their stance. I AM almost convinced that they are agnostic already & hoping that they will find the belief straw that will break the camel's back & set them onto reality...* *I too feel your frustration at the ability to disavow what is plainly in their face & hold to an inferior argument because they now have to update their paradigm....*
@@somniumisdreaming understand the times. No heaters for heat in cold. No constitution. Many tyrants. If the slave masters didn't make profit to feed then the slaves couldn't be fed. It was a boot camp team effort type gig. They'd often discipline slaves under stress n screw up by over exerting the rod ( usually used as a love tap) . Etc. Hard times but they signed contracts. Pagan slave owners were often brutal. Bible warns against it
Being Father of David then you understand Imagination is stories of the Bible characters isn't history but the mind does have many states where allegories, parables, symbols' dreams, vision, ect you find good and bad for original dust gets starved and overfeeding the power of imagination is stuck till you become master beyond just good Acting.
@@EgalitarianWoman I share his criticism in a number of ways. Derek is now promoting a course he's selling as "college level". It isn't it's "Trump University" level which means you may learn something, but you will not get a degree or anything like that out of it, nor will you be provided what even "auditing students" get which is access to materials, library, and ability to watch live lectures and usually watch (but not participate in) tutorials, and the teachers can answer your questions for you etc. So he's advertising that "course" in way that is intentionally likely to mislead. Not only that but pay-walling yet more content is not the answer IMO to help educate people on biblical scholarship.
Dear researchers, I may have got some new insights. Please read my whole reaction... Slavery was and is widespread all over the world. The way we've come to see slavery is through the eyes of the black slaves of North America, or sex slaves. However, slavery also had a more humane reason and that was that someone had the opportunity to pay off debts, or so it was arranged among the Israelites. Slaves were outlawed by other peoples, but protective rules applied in Israel. A distinction was made between Israeli slaves and slaves purchased from other nations. That's because Israel's were owned by God and had been set free by Him. And they were heirs and had land rights, also Israelite slaves, who still belonged to a tribe, and for whom, for example, the rules of the Jovel year applied, remission, so that they were set free. God did not have this arrangement with the nations. A pagan slave was lucky if he came under the precepts of Israel, because there was a penalty for mistreatment and the murder of a slave. Like the Israelis, a slave was not allowed to work on Shabbat - so had a day off - and became involved in the Israeli festivals. Ex 20:10 "but the seventh day is a Shabbat for Adonai your God. On it, you are not to do any kind of work - not you, your son or your daughter, not your male or female slave, not your livestock, and not the foreigner staying with you inside the gates to your property." For violations of the law, the same rules applied to the slave, ie no hands were cut off in case of theft, but restitution was demanded, and for example the maximum flogging penalty was 40-1, just like for Israelis themselves. A runaway slave was not to be returned to his master. There is no reason to believe in any other treatment of Gentile slaves in this area, for example it has nothing to do with inheritance. There were many foreigners living in Israel, who also had no right of inheritance. Certainly in the time of Moses, because many Egyptians had gone with the people into the desert. A fugitive slave might then stay with his new master or, like many other strangers, live in the midst of Israel, to whom the same law applied as the inhabitant. Ex 12:49 (and many other passages) "The same teaching is to apply equally to the citizen and to the foreigner living among you."" So there are more possibilities than the researchers indicate. The same law applied to the foreigner as to the resident of Israel, with the difference of property. And as I said, it had to do with inheritance. Gentile slaves were also foreigners who lived in Israel and so they were not to be treated brutally. However, they could not regain their freedom through the law. That was only possible if their owner set them free. The rights of women and even pagan women were also guaranteed in the Torah. Jealousy or frivolous treatment of foreign women was seen as demeaning and such men enjoyed no honor. Jealousy and divorce, for example, had such major consequences that a man would only do so if he had a really good reason to go through with it. And so it is still used today in the Torah-faithful Orthodox community. Eved is the word for slave, but also means servant. Context is necessary to determine what it is all about. That Israel has other rights and obligations than the other nations has to do with the fact that God has bought them free and has made His agreements with this people. He does not have that with other nations. And that is still the case. That means that God will only deal with people from other nations if they allow themselves to be redeemed by Jesus... Titus 2:14 "He gave himself up on our behalf in order to free us from all violation of Torah and purify for himself a people who would be his own, eager to do good." ...and enter Israel that way... Rom 11:25,26 "It is that stoniness, to a degree, has come upon Isra'el, until the Gentile world enters in its fullness; and that it is in this way that all Isra'el will be saved." ...and become a housemate of the Jews Eph 2:19-21 "So then, you are no longer foreigners and strangers. On the contrary, you are fellow-citizens with God's people and members of God's family. You have been built on the foundation of the emissaries and the prophets, with the cornerstone being Yeshua the Messiah himself. In union with him the whole building is held together, and it is growing into a holy temple in union with the Lord." You become part of God's people and thus receive the same rights and obligations. The researchers lack the experience with Tora, which means that many associations with different situations are lost. I read the whole Torah every year since 1996 and study it carefully and above all: I live God's guidelines. It is therefore quite easy for me to get a broader view of the meaning of the Torah taking into account the context than researchers who only know the Torah through textual research. The video shows that they do good text research in itself, but that it falls short due to a lack of contextual insight. Otherwise they could have said the above as well. Yours, Jeroen from Holland
This is a completely expected, pathetic response parroting the same, typical apologetic tropes that have been poorly used for decades to avoid the patently obvious reality of the horrors of slavery that is tolerated in the Bible. You very clearly have no idea what you are talking about in your feeble attempts to navigate these texts, and your total ignorance of the cultural backgrounds behind their creation.
OP disgusting and naive comment. Young girls being taken as slaves for perverted men prefer that over being free? Humans abused in ways that stripped them of their freedom, dignity, right to even think. To this day, men are dying in their thousands in slavery for abuilding projects, they are forced to because of poverty.
No one is forcing this woman to watch the Netflix show. If she doesn’t approve of Nancy’s personal choice, she can just tune out and go about her life.
I would suggest that anyone that is serious about the meat of these debates: Whether God exists, to read David Bentley Hart’s books. Without the divine, without God, we have no foundation to say anything is immoral.
No,..Slave is an English word. The Bible uses the word “servant” or “ebeb” in Hebrew as in “employee”. You don’t think making minimum wage and spending everything you have just to exist is a form of slavery? Learn Hebrew numerology, the world is full of slaves that created their own prison so they don’t know they are slaves. Numbers in the Hebrew language have coinciding words or concepts that align with their uses in scripture. For example five in Hebrew is Grace, seven is spiritual completeness etc. 6=mankind 60=vanity 600=$bondage$ You put that all together to understand the mark of the beast, it is obligation to the state and your debts, possessions and positions. Most people are in bondage and they don’t know it because they surround themselves with things they love more than freedom.
I'm really sorry, @Da Dewalter , but you must make a MUCH STRONGER case than that. You must go over EVERY line of Exodus 21, Leviticus 25 to 27, and maybe Deuteronomy 21:13, for an encore. There cannot be allowed ANY MISTAKES here. And clearly there must have been SOME - various priests and theologians were still claiming slavery WAS Permissible in the 1500s AD. And then even up to 1865, in a few cases. And there can be no threat from them without what they perceived as valid textual ammunition. Something that could have been SORTED OUT divinely a lot longer ago, say. Also, look up the Triple Tau - that's a mark, too. Meantime, the words 'buy', 'sell', bequeath to your relative, the 'man is his property/money' and 'for LIFE' all tend to look like dead giveaways. Ala Exodus 21:3 to 7, too. And the implication there were VARYING rules for varying 'ebebs'.
@@chrissonofpear1384 Of course the rules vary, just like servants vary, you have live in servants visiting servants and servants you never see. You can call it slavery if you need to be offend via proxy. There was no government, hospitals or police to protect these people when they were away from their masters. Most of them were likely glad for the security. I don’t care about pagan marks, I’m only concerned with the mark of the beast and the seal of God. Everyone has one or the other. Even if you don’t know what they are.
Ebed is a word that can have different meanings depending on the context. That is why when the bible states a foreign person is also an ebed who can be kept as property in perpetuity, and the owner bequeath the ebed to his children as an inheretence and can be beaten brutally. This is by defintion chattel slavery and used by christians for centuries as their foundation and guide for owning humans as property, including US antebellam slavery.
It means slave in Hebrew, Arabic and other Semitic languages. Employees were not a thing. Numerology came way after the text and is irrelevant here. The mark of the beast 666 or 616 depending on manuscript refers to emperor Nero. Everything you say is manic bullshit. Learn from actual teachers...it's actually more fun.
Its even in the ten commandments:
Deu 5 21 ‘You shall not covet your neighbor’s wife, nor desire your neighbor’s house, his field, his male *slave or his female slave,* his ox, his donkey, or anything that belongs to your neighbor
I watched the whole debate the other night and it was very good and very respectful. You and Josh did a great job.
I also seem to recall learning a short while ago that US chattel slavery was explicitly modeled after the rules in the OT for non-Israelite slaves.
Not just US slavery, but christians around the world for the majority of the 2000 yrs of christian history used those verses in the bible as their foundational guide and justification of slavery. They also used the bible as their guide and justification of genocide.
Modern day christian apologists like to lie and say atheists are misinterpreting the bible. Yet ignore the fact that this is exactly how christians interpreted and practised chattel slavery as per the bible.
Good!
Sorry, you guys were too nice on the debate, which turned into philosophical work backwards (since they had to speak a lot more than what you and Dr. Josh did).
Thank you for taking the time to post this video! 😊
Totally agree, it was very difficult for me to watch it till the end. My patience towards Abrahamic Slaveholder- massmurder Cult members is over. I can't listen anymore to their BS, justifications of cruelties and barbarism.
I completely agree. The apologists wanted to paint their god as a endlessly patient entity allowing his followers to learn over time. How does this fit with almost every old testament narrative of the vengeful god committing mass genocide from the flood, killing babies to win a war/dispute against the Egyptians and murdering two whole towns full of women, pregnant women and children? Even if you take specifics, Lot's wife was killed just for looking back toward the town where her older married children and grandchildren were being brutally killed for example. Hardly evidence of a compassionate patient being.
@@mikebalkanski1250 So much this.
THIS SHOULD END ALL DEBATES ABOUT SLAVERY IN THE BIBLE. GOOD WORK KIPP!!!!
Excellent. The issue of women is never talked about, and I was glad to hear you say it.
Something that did not occur to me until now is that having two sets of rules actually makes it worse for the slaves rather than being some sort of glide path to freedom. It actually increases the indignity of being a slave under the worse set of rules by highlighting the fact that those under that set of rules are lesser.
Well stated. I appreciate that. All to often the oppression of women is also baked into the ancient system.
I believe that women are still dealing with society control issues because individual freedom is not emphasize for women. For an example: That's is the biggest problem with Girl Scouts compared to Boy Scouts. It's amazing how many women tear down another woman for being and/or doing something that is outside the social standards for a woman. I know that men does this too, but women doing this to each other is like shooting yourself in the foot. Hopefully in the future, women will be able to have individual freedom to fully develop their individual personality. (I'm not saying every woman doesn't have a developed individual personality; However, there is a lot of women in this situation. )
Right now, I have 3 cats. Each cat has a different personality. I treat each cat differently based on their personality; however, I still treat them as cats. I believe it is the same for humans.
I'm an engineer, and I don't encounter that many women in the field. I don't know if that is because the difference between women and men or it's social issue. I just know that there was few women in my engineering classes. I know that the women can go through Engineering classes because the same women at the beginning is the same at the end. No drop outs. I worked with a few engineering women. What I am saying is that women were able to become engineers, but choose not to. I have no idea why.
A christian wedding even today, a man gives the bride away. And before that, ask the father for the daughters hand. Its amazing how ingrained it is in our society, and most of us dont notice. I never noticed till a year or so back.
@@TheScotsalan
I know. Christians say that it is tradition. Following a tradition for the sake of tradition is a horrible idea. However, following a tradition that has been adjusted to the current society gives everyone participating an anchor to the past. For an example: When an older married couple watches someone else's wedding, they remember their own wedding. For some odd reason, Christians stopped adjusting their traditions to match society, and even went backwards. I bet that most young Christian couples today thinks that Weddings are just a show that they have to perform, and the content doesn't matter. The reason for this is that the Christian wedding is so far removed from today's society.
@@QQuandary If a christian wedding is far removed from todays society, I can think of loads of reasons why thats a good thing 👍. I am married thrice, had 2 christian weddings, and one secular commie wedding 😂.
@@QQuandary A few months back, as an aside, a theist asked me why I, as an aethiest, am so against religion. Why dont I just live and let live etc. I replied.. well, being a Scotsman, brought up in Scotland, I cant think of hardly anything the kirk did not have influence over. From when ferries sail, to when I can buy a beer, to when I can fly fish for trout in a river. I reckon the only good thing the Church done.. double time Sundays 😂😂😂🤝👍
Fun watching you speed read that last night. Great presentation, but I think you nailed the argument in the first 30 seconds of that power point. That was too easy for you and Dr. Josh!
Dr. Kipp... Your honest, sober and scholarly statement on this should be enough to convince any rational and reasonable person interested in this topic, yet the indoctrinated will go to great lengths, including outright dishonesty and lying, to try to reduce it to what the Dark Knight said when his arm was literally chopped off his body in _Monty Python and the Holy Grail: "Tis just a flesh wound"_ .
These exact same sentiments apply equally to Dr. Josh too...
I believe it was the Black Knight.
@@DrKippDavis I stand corrected. Batman wouldn't pull that kinda crap either.😎
Yup. I had discussions in comments of the dabate vid, and the theists do flat out lie at times. I just dont get it. Just admit it, the bible condones slavery. But they cant.
@@thotslayer9914 not since my undergrad. I hate philosophy.
I am in chapter three of the "Atheist Handbook to the Old Testament," I think the slavery chapter is six, so I will be looking forward to getting the context more clearly.
Also excited for vol 2. Whenever that drops.
I need to find out what Dr. Kipp's books to read?
The debate was better than most I have watched on this topic. The whole" meta narrative" was clever, but the way Dr. Kipp asked, "...who gets to interpret that narrative?" was outstanding.
Josh's second volume is out. All of my books (so far) are academic publications and thus, far too expensive to purchase. But, you can find a bunch for free online.
@@DrKippDavis Thanks 🙏 Dr. Kipp, I'll go check those out.
"I will sell your sons and daughters to the people of Judah,and they will sell them to the Sabeans,to a distant nation,for the Lord has spoken. (Joel 3:8 ) "If they accept your offer and open their gates,all the people in that city will become your slaves and "be FORCED to work for you.." ( Deut.20:11 ) "Therefore you are cursed and will always be slaves-woodcutters and water carriers for the house of my God. ( Josh.9:23 ). "Your sons and daughters will be snatched away from you as slaves." ( Deut.28:41 ) "You will watch as your sons and daughters are taken away as slaves.Your heart will break with longing for them,but you will not be able to help them.( Deut.28:32 ) "Solomon imposed forced labor on them." ( 2 Cor.8:8 )
Enlightening conversations as usual thanks guys 💯
Thanks much for this video Dr. Kipp Davis.
I could not watch that debate till the end. It is hard to watch grown men to twist and turn things to match their moral and cognitive dissonance. Still, it was great to see how both of you waited calmly and refuted properly.
Thanks for elucidating what happened to those of African descent.
I still can't understand how your opponents in this debate could possibly say that slavery was not condoned. There is no doubt about and was no argument against there being debt slavery in the Bible. Even if you concede the point of chattel slavery (which you should not), slavery existed. It's said that this was a safety net for Israelites that had fallen on hard times. Regardless of why it existed, it existed. There was never at any point any alternative given for it. As far as we can tell from the Bible, this practice continued up until Jesus' time and even beyond. If there are no laws ending the practice by way of a different system being put into place, how is it not possible that Yahweh, and thus his people, considered this type slavery of perfectly permissable. This is pretty much the definition of "condone".
This is a very valuable summary: I would only like to raise a general point on these debates. Since the debaters are frequently North American, the model of slavery brought before the audience seems always to be that of the ante-bellum South in their country, which raises the emotional tone - and the stakes. It might be more fruitful to wrench the gaze away from that appalling historical situation and to focus instead on the classical one. This would produce a much better mental context for debate.
I think that is fair.
The simple fact is unless you were a male hebrew it was chattle slavery. Even then they could be trapped into chattle slavery. It was and is a disgusting system still practiced in the middle east and africa by islam and corporations.
Now I need to watch the debate.
Thanks for being on TH-cam
Thank you for your great work! It's so great that you help educate folks like me.
It's right there on the pages. How inconvenient for the apologists
once again, well reasoned commentary
Biblical endorsement is one of the reasons western slavery lasted as long as it did.
I don't understand how black people can cling so tightly to a mythology that allowed their captivity.
Because they don't study the Bible, they read the part that appeals to them
I've heard the arguments that Biblical slavery wasn't as bad as Antebellum slavery. Yet there are people claiming that Antebellum slavery wasn't that bad... just sort of 'working for your room and board.' There's a video of a Trump supporter saying something like that.
Thank you, Dr. Kipp.
Thanks for telling it straight instead of the apologist twisting.
Thank you Dr. Kipp This misinformation and white knighting for the false Yahweh, God has to stop.
Would that be Templar Knighting?
@@RoyalKnightVIII *slow clapping*
You missed Matt 5:18. The bit where Jesus said not one iota of the law will change. He did not say, I wont change the law, apart from the slave stuff. Nope, he said the law wont change. So lets assume the 513 or so mosaic laws still apply 😂😳
I wanted to add it was against the law in the South for slaves to be taught to read. If they were caught it could mean lashes from a whip or death.
Imagine trying to justify Gods punishments, all while failing to discuss and describe indentured servitude.
Well said! Now I need to watch the debate.
Nergal-ah-usur, son of Iqisa, said to Ninurta-uballit, son of Bel-usat, as follows: "Take my small daughter Sullea-tasme and keep her alive, she shall be your slave! Give me 6 shekels of silver so that I may give for my ... and that I may eat."
From the "Siege-Documents" from Nippur.
Slavery is always a personal tragedy.
Doc Kipp. Is there any way you and Derick can allow posting a link this vid in the comments of the original debate. I am still deep in debates on that thread, and being able to post this would be good. 👍
I watched a bit of the debate, and I did kind of feel sorry for the apologists... Trying to defend stuff like this as anything more than a product of the culture in which these stories were told sounds like an absolute nightmare.
*Slavery*
Except for murder, slavery has got to be one of the most immoral things a person can do. *Yet slavery is rampant throughout the Bible in both the Old and New Testaments. The Bible clearly approves of slavery in many passages, and it goes so far as to tell how to obtain slaves, how hard you can beat them, and when you can have sex with the female slaves.*
Many Jews and Christians will try to ignore the moral problems of slavery by saying that these slaves were actually servants or indentured servants. Many translations of the Bible use the word “servant”, “bondservant”, or “manservant” instead of “slave” to make the Bible seem less immoral than it really is. While many slaves may have worked as household servants, that doesn’t mean that they were not slaves who were bought, sold, and treated worse than livestock.
*The following passage shows that slaves are clearly property to be bought and sold like livestock.*
However, you may purchase male or female *slaves* from among the foreigners who live among you. You may also purchase the children of such resident foreigners, including those who have been born in your land. *You may treat them as your property, passing them on to your children as a permanent inheritance. You may treat your slaves like this,* but the people of Israel, your relatives, must never be treated this way. (Leviticus 25:44-46 NLT)
*The following passage describes how the Hebrew slaves are to be treated.*
If you buy a Hebrew *slave,* he is to serve for only six years. Set him free in the seventh year, and he will owe you nothing for his freedom. If he was single when he became your *slave* and then married afterward, only he will go free in the seventh year. But if he was married before he became a *slave,* then his wife will be freed with him. If his master gave him a wife while he was a *slave,* and they had sons or daughters, then the man will be free in the seventh year, but his wife and children will still belong to his master. But the *slave* may plainly declare, ‘I love my master, my wife, and my children. I would rather not go free.’ If he does this, his master must present him before God. Then his master must take him to the door and publicly pierce his ear with an awl. After that, the *slave* will belong to his master forever. (Exodus 21:2-6 NLT)
*Notice how they can get a male Hebrew slave to become a permanent slave by keeping his wife and children hostage until he says he wants to become a permanent slave.* What kind of family values are these?
The following passage describes the sickening practice of *sex slavery.* How can anyone think it is moral to sell your own daughter as a *sex slave?*
When a man sells his daughter as a *slave,* she will not be freed at the end of six years as the men are. If she does not please the man who bought her, he may allow her to be bought back again. But he is not allowed to sell her to foreigners, since he is the one who broke the contract with her. And if the *slave* girl’s owner arranges for her to marry his son, he may no longer treat her as a *slave* girl, but he must treat her as his daughter. If he himself marries her and then takes another wife, he may not reduce her food or clothing or fail to sleep with her as his wife. If he fails in any of these three ways, she may leave as a free woman without making any payment. (Exodus 21:7-11 NLT)
So these are the Bible family values! *A man can buy as many sex slaves as he wants as long as he feeds them, clothes them, and has sex with them!*
What does the Bible say about beating slaves? *It says you can beat both male and female slaves with a rod so hard that as long as they don’t die right away you are cleared of any wrong doing.*
When a man strikes his male or female *slave* with a rod so hard that the *slave* dies under his hand, he shall be punished. If, however, the *slave* survives for a day or two, he is not to be punished, since the *slave* is his own property. (Exodus 21:20-21 NAB)
You would think that Jesus and the New Testament would have a different view of slavery, *but slavery is still approved of in the New Testament,* as the following passages show.
*Slaves,* obey your earthly masters with deep respect and fear. Serve them sincerely as you would serve Christ. (Ephesians 6:5 NLT)
Christians who are *slaves* should give their masters full respect so that the name of God and his teaching will not be shamed. If your master is a Christian, that is no excuse for being disrespectful. You should work all the harder because you are helping another believer by your efforts. Teach these truths, Timothy, and encourage everyone to obey them. (1 Timothy 6:1-2 NLT)
In the following parable, *Jesus clearly approves of beating slaves even if they didn’t know they were doing anything wrong.*
The *servant* will be severely punished, for though he knew his duty, he refused to do it. “But people who are not aware that they are doing wrong will be punished only lightly. Much is required from those to whom much is given, and much more is required from those to whom much more is given.” (Luke 12:47-48 NLT)
Christian fanatics like any fanatics will do whatever they choose in the name of their god or use him and the book of myths to jusfy any evil they do.
@Kipp Davis er Dr. Kill *Your debate with Dr. Josh was excellent both for your Biblical/Hebrrew Provenance & for the lively comment debates occurring in the side bar. Was hard to mod & try to comment to pod cast but I'll take this over a Tovia Singer hate fest any day of the week. I was particularly struck by the cognitive dissidence displayed by the apologists who I AM sure felt that they did very well but their answers were extremely apologetic to the point that I AM not sure they were trying to defend their stance. I AM almost convinced that they are agnostic already & hoping that they will find the belief straw that will break the camel's back & set them onto reality...*
*I too feel your frustration at the ability to disavow what is plainly in their face & hold to an inferior argument because they now have to update their paradigm....*
15th December... didn't I watch this live on 15th January? 😅🤣
God damnit.
@@DrKippDavis fantastic summary though
Luv your vids Dr. Kipp.
Very well said
Does not Josh have his own TH-cam channel?
Not just endorsed... but also legislated and COMMANDED... YHWH commanded slave making and slave mongering and slave keeping.
Where are the metal godbots? This is a problem that should have been resolved from the beginning.
Sad to see quality scholarship attain so little attention.
It's different. Some willfully slaves. Etc.
It's not. No such thing as a willing slave. Debt slaves yes but still slavery.
@@somniumisdreaming wrong. They sold themselves as slaves in marketplace. 3 hots n a cot
@@somniumisdreaming understand the times. No heaters for heat in cold. No constitution. Many tyrants. If the slave masters didn't make profit to feed then the slaves couldn't be fed. It was a boot camp team effort type gig. They'd often discipline slaves under stress n screw up by over exerting the rod ( usually used as a love tap) . Etc. Hard times but they signed contracts. Pagan slave owners were often brutal. Bible warns against it
It is not a kindness. And don't call me Shirley.
Being Father of David then you understand Imagination is stories of the Bible characters isn't history but the mind does have many states where allegories, parables, symbols' dreams, vision, ect you find good and bad for original dust gets starved and overfeeding the power of imagination is stuck till you become master beyond just good Acting.
Who decided slavery is an evil...
We did.
Indeed.
I wonder how women were treated by the non-christian cultures. Would life have been better or worse? I have a guess but I really don't know.
Sorry,
*I CAN'T*
*STAND...*
*MYTH VISION!*
So unless you can upload the full discussion with him cut out, I can never watch it. 😒
{:o:O:}
Why's that?
@@EgalitarianWoman I share his criticism in a number of ways. Derek is now promoting a course he's selling as "college level". It isn't it's "Trump University" level which means you may learn something, but you will not get a degree or anything like that out of it, nor will you be provided what even "auditing students" get which is access to materials, library, and ability to watch live lectures and usually watch (but not participate in) tutorials, and the teachers can answer your questions for you etc. So he's advertising that "course" in way that is intentionally likely to mislead. Not only that but pay-walling yet more content is not the answer IMO to help educate people on biblical scholarship.
Please do a video on rape and interracial murder endorsed by god.
Wrong.
Dear researchers, I may have got some new insights. Please read my whole reaction... Slavery was and is widespread all over the world. The way we've come to see slavery is through the eyes of the black slaves of North America, or sex slaves.
However, slavery also had a more humane reason and that was that someone had the opportunity to pay off debts, or so it was arranged among the Israelites. Slaves were outlawed by other peoples, but protective rules applied in Israel. A distinction was made between Israeli slaves and slaves purchased from other nations. That's because Israel's were owned by God and had been set free by Him. And they were heirs and had land rights, also Israelite slaves, who still belonged to a tribe, and for whom, for example, the rules of the Jovel year applied, remission, so that they were set free.
God did not have this arrangement with the nations. A pagan slave was lucky if he came under the precepts of Israel, because there was a penalty for mistreatment and the murder of a slave. Like the Israelis, a slave was not allowed to work on Shabbat - so had a day off - and became involved in the Israeli festivals.
Ex 20:10 "but the seventh day is a Shabbat for Adonai your God. On it, you are not to do any kind of work - not you, your son or your daughter, not your male or female slave, not your livestock, and not the foreigner staying with you inside the gates to your property."
For violations of the law, the same rules applied to the slave, ie no hands were cut off in case of theft, but restitution was demanded, and for example the maximum flogging penalty was 40-1, just like for Israelis themselves.
A runaway slave was not to be returned to his master. There is no reason to believe in any other treatment of Gentile slaves in this area, for example it has nothing to do with inheritance. There were many foreigners living in Israel, who also had no right of inheritance. Certainly in the time of Moses, because many Egyptians had gone with the people into the desert. A fugitive slave might then stay with his new master or, like many other strangers, live in the midst of Israel, to whom the same law applied as the inhabitant.
Ex 12:49 (and many other passages) "The same teaching is to apply equally to the citizen and to the foreigner living among you.""
So there are more possibilities than the researchers indicate.
The same law applied to the foreigner as to the resident of Israel, with the difference of property. And as I said, it had to do with inheritance. Gentile slaves were also foreigners who lived in Israel and so they were not to be treated brutally. However, they could not regain their freedom through the law. That was only possible if their owner set them free.
The rights of women and even pagan women were also guaranteed in the Torah. Jealousy or frivolous treatment of foreign women was seen as demeaning and such men enjoyed no honor. Jealousy and divorce, for example, had such major consequences that a man would only do so if he had a really good reason to go through with it. And so it is still used today in the Torah-faithful Orthodox community.
Eved is the word for slave, but also means servant. Context is necessary to determine what it is all about. That Israel has other rights and obligations than the other nations has to do with the fact that God has bought them free and has made His agreements with this people. He does not have that with other nations. And that is still the case. That means that God will only deal with people from other nations if they allow themselves to be redeemed by Jesus...
Titus 2:14 "He gave himself up on our behalf in order to free us from all violation of Torah and purify for himself a people who would be his own, eager to do good."
...and enter Israel that way...
Rom 11:25,26 "It is that stoniness, to a degree, has come upon Isra'el, until the Gentile world enters in its fullness; and that it is in this way that all Isra'el will be saved."
...and become a housemate of the Jews
Eph 2:19-21 "So then, you are no longer foreigners and strangers. On the contrary, you are fellow-citizens with God's people and members of God's family. You have been built on the foundation of the emissaries and the prophets, with the cornerstone being Yeshua the Messiah himself. In union with him the whole building is held together, and it is growing into a holy temple in union with the Lord."
You become part of God's people and thus receive the same rights and obligations.
The researchers lack the experience with Tora, which means that many associations with different situations are lost. I read the whole Torah every year since 1996 and study it carefully and above all: I live God's guidelines. It is therefore quite easy for me to get a broader view of the meaning of the Torah taking into account the context than researchers who only know the Torah through textual research. The video shows that they do good text research in itself, but that it falls short due to a lack of contextual insight. Otherwise they could have said the above as well. Yours, Jeroen from Holland
This is a completely expected, pathetic response parroting the same, typical apologetic tropes that have been poorly used for decades to avoid the patently obvious reality of the horrors of slavery that is tolerated in the Bible. You very clearly have no idea what you are talking about in your feeble attempts to navigate these texts, and your total ignorance of the cultural backgrounds behind their creation.
So this justifies slavery?
For many people, it certainly does. I guess it all depends on what you think the Bible is and how we should read it.
The whole premise of bileBull is, Mental Slavery, Dah..$hleep-walker
Read the epistle of Paul to Philemon.
I have. What of it?
Dr. Kill going for the kill!
Away with the atheists
~Polycarp
Slavery is perhaps not as bad as it seems.
Most people prefer slavery to being free.
Well that’s not true, at least not if you are talking about actual slavery as opposed to some metaphorical state of mind.
@@jeremypnet . The poorest among the whites maybe would envy some slaves.
OP disgusting and naive comment. Young girls being taken as slaves for perverted men prefer that over being free? Humans abused in ways that stripped them of their freedom, dignity, right to even think. To this day, men are dying in their thousands in slavery for abuilding projects, they are forced to because of poverty.
@@somniumisdreaming . That is not slavery. That is just crime. Slavery is organised by normal people.
agree )
No one is forcing this woman to watch the Netflix show. If she doesn’t approve of Nancy’s personal choice, she can just tune out and go about her life.
I would suggest that anyone that is serious about the meat of these debates: Whether God exists, to read David Bentley Hart’s books. Without the divine, without God, we have no foundation to say anything is immoral.
No one cares, moron.
No,..Slave is an English word. The Bible uses the word “servant” or “ebeb” in Hebrew as in “employee”. You don’t think making minimum wage and spending everything you have just to exist is a form of slavery?
Learn Hebrew numerology, the world is full of slaves that created their own prison so they don’t know they are slaves.
Numbers in the Hebrew language have coinciding words or concepts that align with their uses in scripture.
For example five in Hebrew is Grace, seven is spiritual completeness etc.
6=mankind
60=vanity
600=$bondage$
You put that all together to understand the mark of the beast, it is obligation to the state and your debts, possessions and positions.
Most people are in bondage and they don’t know it because they surround themselves with things they love more than freedom.
I'm really sorry, @Da Dewalter , but you must make a MUCH STRONGER case than that.
You must go over EVERY line of Exodus 21, Leviticus 25 to 27, and maybe Deuteronomy 21:13, for an encore.
There cannot be allowed ANY MISTAKES here. And clearly there must have been SOME - various priests and theologians were still claiming slavery WAS Permissible in the 1500s AD. And then even up to 1865, in a few cases.
And there can be no threat from them without what they perceived as valid textual ammunition. Something that could have been SORTED OUT divinely a lot longer ago, say.
Also, look up the Triple Tau - that's a mark, too.
Meantime, the words 'buy', 'sell', bequeath to your relative, the 'man is his property/money' and 'for LIFE' all tend to look like dead giveaways. Ala Exodus 21:3 to 7, too. And the implication there were VARYING rules for varying 'ebebs'.
@@chrissonofpear1384
Of course the rules vary, just like servants vary, you have live in servants visiting servants and servants you never see. You can call it slavery if you need to be offend via proxy.
There was no government, hospitals or police to protect these people when they were away from their masters. Most of them were likely glad for the security. I don’t care about pagan marks, I’m only concerned with the mark of the beast and the seal of God. Everyone has one or the other. Even if you don’t know what they are.
Ebed is a word that can have different meanings depending on the context. That is why when the bible states a foreign person is also an ebed who can be kept as property in perpetuity, and the owner bequeath the ebed to his children as an inheretence and can be beaten brutally. This is by defintion chattel slavery and used by christians for centuries as their foundation and guide for owning humans as property, including US antebellam slavery.
It means slave in Hebrew, Arabic and other Semitic languages. Employees were not a thing. Numerology came way after the text and is irrelevant here. The mark of the beast 666 or 616 depending on manuscript refers to emperor Nero. Everything you say is manic bullshit. Learn from actual teachers...it's actually more fun.
If god wanted to stop debt “”servitude”” all he had to do is use his “”all”” powerful power to create money; food; or welfare 😒