It's not about AR's. What we're talking about is a 223 with the 77 TMK. Once you've seen the performance firsthand you won't be questioning anymore. The percentage of take is higher than any other combo I've ever used or seen used.
@@ReloadingWeatherbyYou clearly did not read the thread. No one who has actually read at least the first 20 pages or the cheat sheet on this thread, none of those people have not changed their tune on this. It's sad because I'm new to rifles, I just got my first one, and it's sad because I've entered a realm where no one seems to know what the hell they're talking about. I'm very thankful my friend got me to read this thread and subsequently spent $900 on this tikka t3x .223 . There's no shame in deleting this video.
@@pantheist46n2 If 223 is all it's cracked up to be on Rokslide... why is the military moving to the 277 sig fury? If 223/5.56 isn't good against humans... why would you use it for Elk, Moose and Bear?
“why is the military moving to the 277 sig fury?” To give riflemen improved body armor penetration and hit probability at extended range while simplifying the squad ammunition supply problem. “If 223/5.56 isn’t good against humans… why would you use it for Elk, Moose and Bear?” Because nobody is supplying those animals with next gen body armor and training them to shoot at me from distant canyon walls.
Did you actually read through the 190 plus pages of this topic on the forum that you got this title from ???? Typical guntube fudds. I admit I was once skeptical also but after reading through it, looking at all the pictures and learning about ACTUAL terminal ballistics, I decided to jump on the 223 with 77gr TMK bandwagon. I’ve been blown away by what this little bullet does to tissue and bone. Zero recoil, cheap to shoot and being able to see impacts. Keep on with your ignorant old school mindset. Bonded and copper bullets provide deep and narrow wound channels that kill much slower than a bullet like a tmk or Eldm that fragments and immediately begins to destroy tissue and bone …
I actually read every single page on that forum. And guess what... I still think it's stupid to big game(bigger than deer) hunt with a 223 Rem. What happens when you see your dream elk at 500 yards and there is a 20mph wind. What happens when you don't make a shot in the vitals with your 223? You going to mag dump on it with your AR-15?
This can and will be debated infinitely. Lewis and Clark used round lead balls. There were many .50 cal round ball guns that killed thousands of big game. animals..
Hmmm. 10mm over 223 for hunting bear? I’m not so sure about that one. If the 223 is a rifle and is allowed to have monolithic bullets, and the 10mm is a handgun (pick your bullet), I think I’d be taking the rifle 223. Handguns are woefully underpowered compared to centerfire rifles. I’d be interested to hear a discussion on the topic.
You’re exactly right .223 wins every time Not to mention you’ve got 30 on tap and the ability to stay on target. People don’t know what they’re talking about most of the time, unfortunately GOD BLESS YOU ALL
@@ReloadingWeatherby Excuse me? You claimed you were interested in other viewpoints. I thought actually hearing a different viewpoint would make very interesting content. Barring that perhaps you'd relate your own experience of elk/moose/bear kills with the .223 and specifically 77gr TMKs as is the topic of discussion on the forum you referenced.
Here is how that discussion would go. Formidilosus: You can't deny the proof of the 77 gr TMK. We have pictures! Me: Yes... but why not use a bigger cartridge with a TMK? You're so limited using a 223 Remington. Surely you guys can handle more recoil? Formidilosus: But the picture evidence! The 77 gr TMK is the greatest bullet and cartridge combination ever! Me: This is going no where... and it's a waste of my time. P.S. The 50 comments that all of your buddies have made is called seeing a different view point. I'm not going to change your mind, and your not going to change mine. It's time to move on.
@@ReloadingWeatherby Only the thread is limited to the 223 77 gr TMK. Would love to see you shoot ten shot groups with a 300 WBY VS a 223 with a few snap caps thrown in so we could see how your percentage of hits is greater with the larger caliber.
@@terrydietzler4096 I would absolutely do better at a 600 yard target with my 300 WBY over my 223 Remington. My trigger discipline is the same no matter what gun. And I'm not saying I'm a great shooter. But I'm good enough. I have a bolt action 223... That's a good video idea. Thanks
I've seen an elk get dropped with a .223 bolt action at 150-200 yards-ish. It landed behind the right ear. She never knew what hit her. You can aim, or you can't. Not sure what the grain was.
Just saw the name of the channel, the Weatherby mindset explains it. Please continue to read the thread and other great threads on rokslide on how bullets kill, as a bonus you can even find links to actual bullet science ie Dr Fackler. Ft/lbs mean nothing….
Out of curiosity why didn't you guys discuss the actual terminal performance that people are documenting in that thread specifically using the 77 TMK? A consistent 20" deep x 3+" wide wound channel (including when hitting shoulder bone) even down to 1800 fps or so is hardly marginal performance. Hundreds of dead deer, elk, and yes moose and bear with big, deep wound channels.
@egrootveld Now imagine using a larger caliber with that same TMK bullet. My biggest issue was and is the under powered cartridge you're using. I keep asking all your friends this... what happens when you have a 500 yard shot with a low b.c. bullet like the 77 gr TMK in 20 mph wind? Are you going to get closer? Or you going to mag dump on the elk and hope and pray that you hit its vitals?
@@ReloadingWeatherby @ReloadingWeatherby I don't have to imagine. The 168 TMK out of my .308 is a little more meat damage than I prefer on a deer. More isn't always better. I run a 180 Berger out of my 7mm RM, and I still prefer it for elk. I have yet to shoot an elk with a 77 TMK but with the wound channels and exits I've seen on mule deer personally I would have no hesitation to shoot an elk with one out to 300 yards, and I expect closer to 400 after some first hand experience. No mag dumps. I much much prefer a bolt gun for western hunting. I like that it facilitates lots of practice, and I'd take a shooter who has 1k rounds of practice per year over one who is scared of his magnum and can't afford to shoot more than a hundred practice rounds a year. You didn't answer my main question though, why reference the thread if you weren't going to discuss the documented results in tissue from this setup? I would absolutely say my experience has been the same; the results I've seen from the 77 TMK were better than the wound channels I've seen from monos out of .308, .270, etc. I would not use most other bullets with a .223.
@@egrootveld Why are you bringing up deer? I'm talking Elk, Moose and bear. And look at that... you prefer a 7 mag over a 223 Rem. Shocker. As I've said before you're so limited on hunting an elk with a 223 Rem. Has to be legal, has to be the right conditions... and it can't be past 300 yards. Sorry for forgetting to answer your main question. This video for me was always about using a underpowered cartridge for very large game. While I prefer Bonded and Mono bullets I understand that cup and core bullets can be very effective. Just not my cup of tea.
I came across this video this morning and all I can say is wow. It's OBVIOUS that neither of the hosts even read the thread on Rokslide. There is an absolute ton of information on that thread about terminal ballistics with the TMK. Educate yourself instead of giving your opinion of which is an opinion. A 10mm pistol over a 223 rifle? Really?
Haha this video must have been shared on Rokslide. As I told the others... Sierra does make the TMK for every caliber. You do realize that right? I'll ask you... why would you use a 223 for elk? So you can go brag about it online with your buddies? What happens when you don't make a good shot on an elk with a 223? How ethical are you?
@colesammons2137 Are you really arguing that a 223 is more effective at killing with a bad shot than a 300 Win mag? All you guys are in love with a match bullet... go use it in a 300 Win mag
I’m not arguing anything I asked a question. Nothing is effective at killing with a bad shot. A 223 through the vitals is a 100% better killer than a 300 win mag in the ass.
Didnt take long watching this to realize these guys are not serious about rifles or hunting. Many ars have 20" barrels. Just because it is an ar does not make it less power. The hornady manual on my desk shows a 60 grain sp will load to 3,200 fps with BLC2. Most people hunting deer do not take 400 yard shots. Most people hunting deer live around corn and trees. There my average range is 3 yards. many shotgun states they shoot them with a smooth bore 12 gauge rifled slug. Do the math. I live in wyoming. Last deer i shot with 300 in mag in open rolling hills was 65 yards. We both crested the same hill from opposite directions. Many states have recently legalized 223 for deer. We have better bullets and powders than ever before. Fill out a ballistics chart on a 60 grain hornady sp at 3200 fps with a bc of .26 200 yards is easy for deer with that. Many of us hunt multiple species. Being able to shoot antelope, deer, and elk on the same day with 300 win mag is nice. When im in thick ravines, 223 is nice to be able to shoot deer, rabbits, turkey, and mountain lion in same day. Again, most places with big deer hunting, white tails are within 50 yards. Most places with mule deer everyone is hinting elk instead. I bet i could kill an elk with 223 at the right distance with a well placed shot. Not legal here so i wont. When im in wide places hunting deer i carry 300 win mag. I do take 400 yard shots with it. But i practice at 600. A 400 yard shot with 30 06 usually has similar power to a 100 yard shot with 223 load i described above. Hunt with the rifle you shoot. Not all hunting rifles need to he $5k. If it gets people out hunting its good. You worry too much about kinetic energy. Go calculate the kinetic energy at 20 yards with the minimum required archery set up in your state. Youll be amazed. You should read about all the black powder rifle and black powder pistol hunting that is done. You guys really need to get out more.
Do you eat your cereal will a knife? A fork? Can you do it? Yes, but there are better options. Do I need credentials to be able to speak about common sense? It’s obvious if you stop overthinking it.
Did you really just say that you would rather have a 10mm than a .223/5.56? That one statement alone just killed all your credibility That is beyond ignorant, mate, you’re forgetting about accuracy, recoil, the ability to make follow up shots, capacity, and what that little bullet does to flesh moving at those speeds. That’s an insane statement I have yet to see these bulletproof bears we supposedly have walking around everywhere. If it’s made of flesh and blood and you know where to shoot then a 22lr can and has taken down every animal on earth so you’re talking crazy Bigger caliber bullets don’t make up for the fact that you can’t shoot and I believe that’s what has sold most people on this concept Native Alaskans that hunt to feed their family use .223/5.56 everyday to kill elk, moose, polar bear, grizzly, and everything else with a pulse that is eatable so there’s no debate. It can be done ethically A record grizzly was killed with 22 long which is less powerful than a 22lr and people kill grizzly bears with 9mm pistols every year so don’t believe everything you read online, mate, you’ll make yourself look foolish. We forget that the mountain men 200 years ago hunted every animal in North America with something that had roughly the same power as a 9mm Luger at 100 yards. When did people get on this kick of believing you need a 50 cal to hunt grasshoppers, it’s insane. The greatest elk hunter I’ve seen or heard about said that the .243 just did it better than all the rest. You guys need to stop subscribing to these gun magazines that use advertisements to make you believe that the rifle You have isn’t good enough I’m not saying it’s the best caliber to hunt large game by any means but in the right hands under the right circumstances it most definitely can get it done. I’m a 6.5 Grendel guy myself Awesome cartridge GOD BLESS YOU ALL
If you don’t have a good shot then you should pass on the shot, no matter what caliber you’re using, that’s what a real hunter does. It’s funny how people talk about these smaller rounds not being “ethical” while believing that using a bigger caliber will allow them to take bad shots successfully but no matter how big the cartridge is if you don’t hit the right spot then you’re likely to lose that animal so to me that seems more unethical than using a smaller caliber every day of the week. Listen, if you can shoot the caliber you have well, know your limits, are able to pass on bad shots and use the right bullet then you’ll do fine. Stop jumping on the bandwagon with all the other “Hunters” that have no clue what they are talking about and just go in repeating whatever they seen or heard some other clown pretending to be a a pro that doesn’t have a clue what he’s talking about either. Don’t take my word for it go Google and see how many attacking brown bear have been STOPPED with little 9mm pistols all the time As a matter of fact the 9mm has been used SUCCESSFULLY on attacking bears more than just about every other pistol caliber out there yet we listen to greenhorns tell us that anything under a cannon with a nuke taped to it will somehow bounce off these armor plated bears and “piss them off” 😂 but we have way more than a few accounts of it being done with the calibers you guys scoff at so who do you wanna listen to The guys that’s been there and done that or the guys in their basement pretending to know everything there is to know on the topic? I think I’ll stick with MY OWN experience and you do you just remember that you can’t kill what you can hit because you’re scared of the recoil and follow up shots aren’t even on the table at that point so use the gun you shoot the best and use a bullet with proper construction for the task at hand I’ll take 5 hits with a 22lr over a miss with a 50cal all day long Keep Shooting Be Safe GOD BLESS YOU ALL
I am going to estimate that you're referring to the Alaskan Inuit/Members of the First Nations when you refer to Alaskan Natives. Alaskan Natives actually used the .222 Remington, not the .223 as you suggest. And for polar bear, the .250 Savage was preferred because the Inuit believed that the increase in power was necessary for the big white bears. In either case, the 30-06 SPRG largely replaced both cartridges. And that was decades ago. Sure, I suppose that there are a few Natives running around using a 223. Anything is possible. But from what I've heard & read, most of the Inuit use 30-06 SPRG rifles for hunting, which also makes complete sense. You can't tell me with a straight face that the 223 Remington is better for big game hunting than an '06.
@@miker258 I also would refrain from heaping praise onto the 9mm as a bear stopper. A huge Alaskan brown bear that had killed a hiker a few years back was found with .38 caliber bullets in its hide when Alaska State Troopers killed the bruin. The hiker had been found with an empty .38 Special revolver. 9mm is hardly more powerful. But you carry what you want, it's your life.
Interesting. Do people really use light cartridges on big game or is it just the odd ‘been done’ causing a racquet? Surely most people select the right tool for the job.
@koscheithedeathless1838 No... but since you want to make that comparison. I will concede if you decide to hunt Elk with a 223 within 30 yards... like a bow hunter. Also answer me this... why use a 223 Rem? Can't handle the recoil of a bigger cartridge? Just your ego of proving it can be done?
Ha! You got me. I’m highly suspicious of bowhunting and have only engaged in it reluctantly for filling tags. I apologize for my unnecessarily rude opening comment. I actually don’t think that .223 is an adequate elk cartridge. I’m of the opinion that it may or may not be depending on many more important variables. I think the real point of that thread is tricking people into training with a .223 bolt gun so they get far better at understanding those variables.
@@ReloadingWeatherby not at all. I do however ponder the peculiarity revolving around the topic of ethical/humane in context of hunting as vast majority of 223/556 shots are expended at people, and whether for defensive or offensive reasons, I wonder if the same virtue of ethical minimums should be discussed for defensive calibers as well. What is the ethical minimum for defense against humans?
@Pierce R That's a different topic. Why is the sky blue? Wadda 'bout, how too many donuts can kill people? Broadblades are a different mechanism. They kill differently. Can you harvest a Deer with a "short distance boulder"? Possibly. Just because you CAN do something doesn't mean you SHOULD do something. Ethics matter. We should have respect for the animals we hunt.
@@jasonforester4572 I doubt anyone subscribed, liking, and providing RW Podcast comments, disagrees a 223 isn’t an ideal deer, elk, bear round. I wasn’t asking a rhetorical question either. I was asking for the content creators opinion.
@@ReloadingWeatherby only stupid shots If you are comfortable with your ability to put the shot where you want it and responsible enough to only take shots you know you can make then there’s nothing stupid about it. Stupid is having some caliber You believe is king and taking dumb shots because of that belief and injuring animals that will get away to suffer. If you don’t think a round that can penetrate 1/2” steel plates, with M855A1, won’t get the job done on anything made of flesh and blood, under certain circumstances, then it’s You that’s “stupid”, mate. GOD BLESS YOU ALL
@miker258 I wouldn't advice taking poor shots with a big caliber either. Answer me this... why use a 223 for elk? Is it because you can't handle recoil from a bigger cartridge? Or you like stroking your ego? So you can brag on the Internet? Just because it can do it doesn't make it a good option.
@@ReloadingWeatherby if anyone here is “stroking their ego” here it’s You, mate. The fact that you can’t see that is hilarious. Are you aware that the vast majority of native Alaskans in the north hunt everything with .223/5.56? Would you call them “unethical”? They kill more game in a year than the rest of us will our entire lives so maybe it’s You that don’t know what you’re talking about I bet that’s never even crossed your mind, has it? GOD BLESS YOU ALL
Obvious the podcasters have neither read the thread mentioned, nor tried a 77gr Tipped Matchking, or 88gr ELD-m on game. You guys are opining on something you have absolutely no experience with.
Nope just people that actually try things before having an opinion not just sit on their fat ass and say dumb shit like .308 is marginal on bear. You've gotten way more attention over this than your dumb ass deserves
How many pages did you make it into the 200 page thread filled with photographic evidence and example after example of success? I'm guessing between the both of you, you read zero pages.
@@ReloadingWeatherby Jeeze Honestly I think for deer its even a little under powered. The only way I see it as effective is as a VMAX with a neck shot.
Ive killed deer with a 10.5 inch ar. And i used 55gr all they way up to mk262 77gr. And everything in between. 62 gr and up works best but like you said shot placement is key. Hell 55gr v-max works if you get within close bow range. Your milage and shooting skills may very lol
@ReloadingWeatherby oh yes. I was just saying it works well if you know the anatomy of the animal and you can do your part behind the gun. But I've shot very large deer with it and massive hogs. It's definitely not for everyone lol and with my hand loads I would absolutely shoot a black bear with it.
These two are just a joke, clearly yall need the larger calibers to compensate for lack of knowledge and mabey your shooting abilities? Who knows... probably just into the bigger bore shit for braggin rights? I dont know. Hate to tell ya bud but theres been a bunch of Alaskan natives that have killed bear, moose and caribou with 223. To sit there and say youd rather take a 10mm over a 223 is just ignorant in my opinion and also shows a bit about your character. Dont scoff at what other people choose to hunt with especially if you have no clue of their backgrounds or what kind of shooter they are.
We should not be negative. No one agrees on everything and people seem to love to debate their choice of cartridges to hunt with. We must also take into consideration the amount of people that read more mags and watch hunt tv than actually shoot or hunt. So that 300 mag referenced may well be way to much gun. I work with many people who shoot. Most are not the shots they feel they are. Also there is shooting off a bench all sand bagged or lead sled then there is field shooting. Big difference.
I understand the trend in fishing light line class on big fish or long range bow or long range rifle hunting (bragging/challenge) in general (not my thing at all). I find bow hunting results with chasing blood trails (animal bleeds to death) and similar with copper bullets ( no expansion, passes through like an arrow at the longer distances 200+ yds).
Instead of making a video bashing a forum thread, then posting a link in the comments and calling it stupid, why not reach out to the forum owners and see if they or some 223 advocates would be open to a debate. It would be more productive and interesting than this video where its 2 people who share the same opinion.
You felt the need to make a video on a topic, only had a discussion with someone who agrees with you and are not open to debating someone with opposing viewpoints….. you must work for CNN.
@B-ib8xw Not worth my time... if you didn't notice this video has hardly any views. No one cares... except the 20 of you from Rokslide. For the record... my biggest issue is using a very light bullet in a very under powered cartridge. As I told your other cronies... Sierra makes the TMK for larger calibers. Certainty you could handle the recoil of a 308 Win right?
@@ReloadingWeatherby that’s your opinion. I think it’s “stupid” to believe a round that can punch through 1/2” cold rolled steel plates, M855A1, couldn’t take an elk. GOD BLESS YOU ALL
I've seen a large whitetail deer shot with a 22 long rifle at 80 yards hit in the vitals. It went 20 yards and fell over deader than a stump. wouldn't believe it if I didn't see it. Im not saying its ethical but range and shot placement is key. I I wouldn't have taken that shot. Ibe also seen my uncle shoot a deer at over 100 yards with a 22 hornet and same results. He turned to me after the shot and said "shot placement is everything" because i was questioning the shot
I’ve hunted pronghorn with a 223 and 70 grain TSXs. Tons of fun, as I limit myself to 150 yards when I take it out. Have to get close. For work, I’ve euthanized pronghorn, mule deer, and elk with the same load. I hunt deer and elk with a 270wsm. If I were moose hunting, I’d probably run the old 30-06 and some 180 grain monolithics.
I saw a video were a guy was on a snowmobile and he came across a moose, and the animal charged him. The man was armed with a handgun and killed it, yet the moose was close.
@@jackwagon1798 😆 🤣 😂 Did I ever say a 223 couldn't kill an elk? You could kill an elk with a 22LR if you wanted to. What happens when you make a poor shot with your 223? Not very ethical
@@PredatorSlayer41 Ideally we all want the perfect shot with any cartridge. But when people do make a poor shot, I'll take a 300 Win mag with a bonded bullet over a 223 with a TMK. Let's say you put the shot up it's rear end. TMK is going to blow up not reaching any vitals. Win mag could actually penetrate to the vitals and possibly have an exit wound providing more blood loss. Look I completely understand the desired effect of a cup and core bullet that blows up providing a quick death. But you have to hit it in the right spot and hope you don't hit bone.
223 for elk, moose and bear? NO. Will it kill those animals? Absolutely. Will you recover the animal? Probably not. Show respect for the animal and shoot a cartridge that will work under the worst case scenario not one that may or may not work under the ideal scenario.
@@es4583 thanks for the link, I'm not going to bother with it. If you want to talk real world experience v your internet search, I've killed game animals with 22LR through 577NE. And just about everything in between. I've said it before and I'll say it again, a 223 is a fine cartridge for varmints and small game, it is NOT a cartridge for medium or big game. Why anybody wants to pull the stunt of shooting game with a 223, when there are so many better options, is beyond comprehension. Opportunities are getting fewer and fewer and the public perception of hunter is low enough. Just simply switch to a more effective cartridge. Just because something can be done, does not mean that it should be done.
@@es4583 do you understand that those people are not putting on the web/their bragging board the animals that go off wounded or the ones not recovered? I never said it can't be done, I said that it shouldn't be done.
@@es4583 zero real world experience? I'll happily put the thousands of real world game animals I've personally killed up against your internet-hero claims. You obviously don't have the experience to know that bullets do some odd things as they travel through an animal. Hair, hide, muscle, bone, blood and organs all have varying densities, hence different affects on a bullet and it travels through the animal. I have killed eland (the world's biggest antelope) with a 223 and also with a 243. In no way would I recommend that. Those cartridges are too small and their bullets too light for that animal. If you think about it the world record (for a time) grizzly was killed with a 22LR. That does not make a 22LR a good choice for grizzly hunting. I will say it again, just because something can be done, does not mean it should be done.
@@es4583 I never claimed to have used a 77 grain anything in a 223 of any other caliber. Interestingly I don't think you have experience outside of a keyboard search. Use what ever bullet you want. I couldn't care less what you and your hillbilly friends want to do. From what you have written, I doubt you have ever shot anything that didn't involve a computer game. Enjoy your teen years.
@@es4583 how is this TMK “modern bullet technology”? It’s a cup and core match bullet and on Sierra’s website they clearly state that it’s not intended for most hunting situations.
This is definitely an interesting topic to discuss/debate, because I find that those who are using the 223 Remington on big game seem to not comprehend the fact that it is not an ideal big game hunting cartridge. It's not even the best choice of the 22 centerfire crowd as it is, so why choose it? The 22-250 & 220 Swift are better options for a couple of reasons, one being accuracy potential. And even then, marginal. Someone elsewhere on this thread states that his uncle used a 22-250 on big game for years and lost more than a few animals. He eventually traded up to a 308 Winchester. If that isn't a shining example of how the 22 centerfires are marginal for big game, and sometimes not even enough gun, then you are beyond reason. From what I have observed over the years, the crowd that favors Small items tend to shout louder than those who are using what is viewed as a standard tool for the job. Its akin to barking at someone who owns a diesel truck that your Mitsubishi MightyMax does just as good and even better of a job for hauling firewood. Nobody is saying that a 223 won't kill big game. Even a 22LR will kill big game, under exactly perfect conditions. What I'm saying is simply what has been an accepted truth for decades: Use Enough Gun. There is also the Taylor KO Theory, which can be useful to look at if you're curious about the lethality of a certain cartridge. At the end of the day, people are going to carry & shoot what they want to. People are also stubborn bastards, and if you want to take the North American Slam with a 223 Remington then be my guest. You might have some problems with legality in some regions, and some animals may prove to be a problem. If you've got a trophy ram at 600 yards with a strong crosswind in a blizzard, God help you.
Wow talk about a waste of air. When you listen to these guys they have NO personal experience, yet continue with "I feel like", " In my opinion " , "I think". You both clearly lack understanding of exterior ballistics, experience, and knowledge. Clearly neither of you bothered to review "the thread". The pictures of the game taken, and the wound cavities should be enough to make you question yourselves. The thread you refer to include kills on walrus, moose, brown bear, elk, and everything smaller.
.223 dumps its' energy in to the vitals, not beyond it. It is all about shot placement. 150 yds and less, no abstructions. Aim for the top of the heart, and use a monolithic or bonded expanding bullet. A 130 grain .270 jacketed soft point against bone will shed 2 thirds of its' weight before the vitals, thus same weight as a mono .223 which retains 95% of its' weight through bone and through vitals. Everyone compares FPS, energy, and calibre size. Realistically there are only 3 things that bring down big game: Lowering blood pressure, Disruption of vital organs, Central nervous system disruption. A .223 can cut a heart in half, reduce the blood pressure instantaniously, and has enough speed to disrupt central nervous system if shot is high. A deer is 10 times smaller than a moose, and .270 is good for moose.... so .223 is good for deer. Wouldn't recommend .223 for game bigger than 300 lbs, only for the simple fact that the bones are larger. A .223 is also more trustworthy than a broadhead.
Why do you care so much? If you dont like it thats fine. But to condemned and ignoring the facts posted about the 77tmk is disingenuous. 77tmk proven to be ethical time and time again. Wnat you should of argued against is match bullets being Too Good with their ballistic. That it takes out to much meat
@@ReloadingWeatherbyThat's fair and I respect it. My brother in Christ, this was interpretation of it. I could be wrong but you came off as a bit hostile and biased towards it. So thanks for replying
My uncle used to hunt with the 22-250 when it first came out and used it to take deer and elk doing head shots with solid bullets and he had more then a few that got away! He switched to the 308 and had a lot more success with elk even though he hated recoil! I haven’t checked but I the 22-250 is illegal to hunt elk in most states! Just my 2 cents from 60+ years of hunting and reloading
You might wanna go watch the yt video of a young lady bringing down a big bull elk at 395yds with a 6.5 Grendel. Bigger doesn’t always mean better, mate GOD BLESS YOU ALL
I don’t have a .223, but I do have a pair of .222. I love them, for ground hogs and prairie dogs, and that’s it. Could I use them for deer? Yes. But I hardily agree with you when you ask why, when there’s so many better cartridges for that.
There’s plenty of reasons like recoil sensitivity, accuracy, capacity, and not everyone has a bunch of different rifles laying around costing thousands of dollars with ridiculously expensive ammo so they pick one that can do it all no matter what people feel about it because when you’ve gotta put food on the table all the other bs goes out the window. It’s insane to me to hear people saying that it can’t be done because I can assure you it can, has, and will do it just fine. Go to northern Alaska and see what the natives use to hunt everything from grizzly, polar bear, and even whale They use .223/5.56 and they don’t ever have any issues because they don’t go online and listen to all these self proclaimed “professionals” telling them “It won’t work” You’re all being fooled by marketing telling you that you need this new gun with this new caliber and anything else is just “inhumane” nevermind the hundreds of years of records proving different. In the 1700’s the gun they used for EVERYTHING had the same energy as a modern 9mm at 100yds and it did the job just fine. World record grizzly was killed with 22 long by a little old Indian woman Put the round where it needs to go and it will do the job Period GOD BLESS YOU ALL
This reply is not meant to be argumentative. It’s just a friendly discussion. 1. Recoil sensitivity. Too sensitive for a .243 or 7mm-08? But perhaps the person has a bad shoulder, so okay. 2. Capacity. I hunt big game in PA, NY, and Canada. I’m not allowed to carry an AR in PA or NY. I’m not sure I can bring one into Canada. 3. Expensive rifles. In Canada, the .303 is still used for moose. They can be picked up for +/- $100. 4. More power. When I go to the Adirondacks for deer, or Canada for moose, I have limited time. Less than perfect shot scenarios often are my only choice. I want more power for a racking, or longer range shot. All that being said, I understand your point. I’ve told my grandson that anything can kill anything. I wouldn’t want to be hit by a .22 short, let alone a .223. There’s a pile of dead NVA troops that would say the 5.56 is very effective.
@@ReloadingWeatherby In Argentina I saw a guy hunting guanaco with a .22lr He also had a 308 but its ammo was too expensive due to Argentina's economic situation.
Im 24 years old I killed a cow elk an bull elk with a 223 dpms oracle ar 15 only take two bullets too kill a cow elk a bull elk u gotta shoot them 4 times with a 223 an they work good for grizzlies I got attacked by grizzlies multiple times an my 223 piece bone an shoot for the neck on animal I use army gradeFMJs that burn really hot too break bone I use match hollows points 223 hollow points they only go 12 inches of penetration an I shoot mule deer an white tail far out with a 223 Remington an I use a 7.62x39 ar 15 on elk u don’t even know u killed them elk when u shoot at them u gotta walk out there where u shot them than u find him dead
With the absolute minimum of a 16” Barrel, Using a 62-65 grain game bullet loaded to 5.56 specs, I’d be more then comfortable taking whitetail no further then 100 yards. Anything else bigger? Nope. I can’t stand trailing game, If the animal isn’t down It bothers me when I need to trail, even with a more then adequate caliber for what I’m hunting.
Why would they try to use .223 on an elk or moose? Because they don't have the money to buy the proper equipment and are will to risk it. I mean come on guys, a savage 270 win is like $300. If you can't afford that, why are you hunting??
@@ReloadingWeatherby lack of funds. My wife and I have ARs, but we also spent the money for a suitable elk rifle. You also want to consider human kills.
For me, probably a coyote or a wolf, if I had to. I would only use it on deer in a survival situation. But, actually, I don’t have anything smaller than a 243 Win. in my collection. I’m not a proponent of the minimalist caliber and cartridge school for a given class of game.
Im the one that brought this forum to your attention for your opinion. I do agree, can it be done, yes, should it be?, only last resort. I beleive the animal deserves a more ethical death than a slow one. This is a great yote, fox, med small game caliber, not intended for large heavy boned game. Yes the pictures were impressive on the forum, but thats only when the bullet performs properly and great shot placement. Their is a reason why their are cartridge/caliber minimums in hunting. Same goes for hunting with larger for caliber than what you are hunting. Solo hunters like myself would rather carry more than a 6mm or 6.5 in the woods. Why you ask, because theres other things in the woods besides deer, like protective moma bears that you may stumble across like i have a few times. Not a fun experience. Did i have to shoot it, no, but im glad i had what i had if i needed it.
What would make you believe a 30 cal could do something a .264 cal couldn’t? You need more experience, mate Stop believing the things you read 6mm and 6.5 are more than capable and hearing what you just wrote is always a dead giveaway that someone is a greenhorn. GOD BLESS YOU ALL
Wow some butt hurt people over the 223/556 use for 🦌 coyotes small and some medium game ok. But would not be first choice for 🦌 for that matter. Long live the 270 win good video guys
Wow, that thread is ridiculous. Unless you’re in a survival situation and have nothing else available there is no reason to hunt anything bigger than small whitetail with a .223.
@@egrootveldyes, I did. I saw a lot of deer with massive amounts of meat damage and a handful of elk and a couple moose and black bear. Why doesn’t someone in that thread go up to Kodiak for a brown bear or what the heck, head over to Africa and pop a Cape buffalo or rino with one?
It's not about AR's. What we're talking about is a 223 with the 77 TMK. Once you've seen the performance firsthand you won't be questioning anymore. The percentage of take is higher than any other combo I've ever used or seen used.
LOL
@@ReloadingWeatherbyYou clearly did not read the thread. No one who has actually read at least the first 20 pages or the cheat sheet on this thread, none of those people have not changed their tune on this. It's sad because I'm new to rifles, I just got my first one, and it's sad because I've entered a realm where no one seems to know what the hell they're talking about. I'm very thankful my friend got me to read this thread and subsequently spent $900 on this tikka t3x .223 . There's no shame in deleting this video.
@@pantheist46n2 If 223 is all it's cracked up to be on Rokslide... why is the military moving to the 277 sig fury? If 223/5.56 isn't good against humans... why would you use it for Elk, Moose and Bear?
@@ReloadingWeatherbyDid you read that before clicking "reply"? lmao
“why is the military moving to the 277 sig fury?”
To give riflemen improved body armor penetration and hit probability at extended range while simplifying the squad ammunition supply problem.
“If 223/5.56 isn’t good against humans… why would you use it for Elk, Moose and Bear?”
Because nobody is supplying those animals with next gen body armor and training them to shoot at me from distant canyon walls.
I'm a believer in the 223
I’d say a monolithic that is used out of a .270 is a worse choice than a .223 with the 77 gr mk
Now that's a hot take haha. So you would hunt elk with a 77gr bullet in a 223 over a 129 gr LRX in a 270 Win?
@@ReloadingWeatherby yes.
Agree 100%
Did you actually read through the 190 plus pages of this topic on the forum that you got this title from ????
Typical guntube fudds. I admit I was once skeptical also but after reading through it, looking at all the pictures and learning about ACTUAL terminal ballistics, I decided to jump on the 223 with 77gr TMK bandwagon. I’ve been blown away by what this little bullet does to tissue and bone.
Zero recoil, cheap to shoot and being able to see impacts.
Keep on with your ignorant old school mindset. Bonded and copper bullets provide deep and narrow wound channels that kill much slower than a bullet like a tmk or Eldm that fragments and immediately begins to destroy tissue and bone …
I actually read every single page on that forum. And guess what... I still think it's stupid to big game(bigger than deer) hunt with a 223 Rem. What happens when you see your dream elk at 500 yards and there is a 20mph wind. What happens when you don't make a shot in the vitals with your 223? You going to mag dump on it with your AR-15?
@@ReloadingWeatherby no you didn't lol
@ReloadingWeatherby By that logic a 9.3x62 or a 45 70 is no good for elk cause they can't make that shot.
This can and will be debated infinitely. Lewis and Clark used round lead balls. There were many .50 cal round ball guns that killed thousands of big game. animals..
Hmmm. 10mm over 223 for hunting bear? I’m not so sure about that one. If the 223 is a rifle and is allowed to have monolithic bullets, and the 10mm is a handgun (pick your bullet), I think I’d be taking the rifle 223. Handguns are woefully underpowered compared to centerfire rifles. I’d be interested to hear a discussion on the topic.
That would be a fun topic
You’re exactly right
.223 wins every time
Not to mention you’ve got 30 on tap and the ability to stay on target.
People don’t know what they’re talking about most of the time, unfortunately
GOD BLESS YOU ALL
@@miker258 Nobody goes sport hunting with a 30 round Mag and in some states there's likely some legality issues with that.
my buddy has been knockin down moose past few yrs wit 223 rifle
Why?
@@ReloadingWeatherbyprobably because he likes to eat moose. They are made of meat! 😂
When your very experienced you dont hyper ventilate at the sight of game. You go into kill mode "like Heimo" and just kill. Big difference.
Here's an idea: How about interviewing someone like Formidilosus from "that" forum ? I'd pay to see that.
Oh man... I bet Formidilosus would sure show me! 🙄🙄🙄
@@ReloadingWeatherby Excuse me? You claimed you were interested in other viewpoints. I thought actually hearing a different viewpoint would make very interesting content. Barring that perhaps you'd relate your own experience of elk/moose/bear kills with the .223 and specifically 77gr TMKs as is the topic of discussion on the forum you referenced.
Here is how that discussion would go. Formidilosus: You can't deny the proof of the 77 gr TMK. We have pictures!
Me: Yes... but why not use a bigger cartridge with a TMK? You're so limited using a 223 Remington. Surely you guys can handle more recoil?
Formidilosus: But the picture evidence! The 77 gr TMK is the greatest bullet and cartridge combination ever!
Me: This is going no where... and it's a waste of my time.
P.S. The 50 comments that all of your buddies have made is called seeing a different view point. I'm not going to change your mind, and your not going to change mine. It's time to move on.
@@ReloadingWeatherby Only the thread is limited to the 223 77 gr TMK. Would love to see you shoot ten shot groups with a 300 WBY VS a 223 with a few snap caps thrown in so we could see how your percentage of hits is greater with the larger caliber.
@@terrydietzler4096 I would absolutely do better at a 600 yard target with my 300 WBY over my 223 Remington. My trigger discipline is the same no matter what gun. And I'm not saying I'm a great shooter. But I'm good enough. I have a bolt action 223... That's a good video idea. Thanks
I've seen an elk get dropped with a .223 bolt action at 150-200 yards-ish. It landed behind the right ear. She never knew what hit her. You can aim, or you can't. Not sure what the grain was.
Of course it will kill it with a head shot... that wasn't the point
@@ReloadingWeatherby That WAS my point.
@@ReloadingWeatherby I thought your whole point was about being “ethical” and capable?
How much more ethical or capable can you get?
GOD BLESS YOU ALL
@@miker258 Troll.
@@ReloadingWeatherby how old are you, greenhorn?
GOD BLESS YOU ALL
Just saw the name of the channel, the Weatherby mindset explains it. Please continue to read the thread and other great threads on rokslide on how bullets kill, as a bonus you can even find links to actual bullet science ie Dr Fackler. Ft/lbs mean nothing….
So... you're an advocate for using 223 Rem on big game? Where did I say it couldn't kill the animals? I'm just saying it's stupid
Out of curiosity why didn't you guys discuss the actual terminal performance that people are documenting in that thread specifically using the 77 TMK? A consistent 20" deep x 3+" wide wound channel (including when hitting shoulder bone) even down to 1800 fps or so is hardly marginal performance. Hundreds of dead deer, elk, and yes moose and bear with big, deep wound channels.
@egrootveld Now imagine using a larger caliber with that same TMK bullet. My biggest issue was and is the under powered cartridge you're using. I keep asking all your friends this... what happens when you have a 500 yard shot with a low b.c. bullet like the 77 gr TMK in 20 mph wind? Are you going to get closer? Or you going to mag dump on the elk and hope and pray that you hit its vitals?
@@ReloadingWeatherby @ReloadingWeatherby I don't have to imagine. The 168 TMK out of my .308 is a little more meat damage than I prefer on a deer. More isn't always better. I run a 180 Berger out of my 7mm RM, and I still prefer it for elk. I have yet to shoot an elk with a 77 TMK but with the wound channels and exits I've seen on mule deer personally I would have no hesitation to shoot an elk with one out to 300 yards, and I expect closer to 400 after some first hand experience. No mag dumps. I much much prefer a bolt gun for western hunting.
I like that it facilitates lots of practice, and I'd take a shooter who has 1k rounds of practice per year over one who is scared of his magnum and can't afford to shoot more than a hundred practice rounds a year.
You didn't answer my main question though, why reference the thread if you weren't going to discuss the documented results in tissue from this setup? I would absolutely say my experience has been the same; the results I've seen from the 77 TMK were better than the wound channels I've seen from monos out of .308, .270, etc.
I would not use most other bullets with a .223.
@@egrootveld Why are you bringing up deer? I'm talking Elk, Moose and bear. And look at that... you prefer a 7 mag over a 223 Rem. Shocker. As I've said before you're so limited on hunting an elk with a 223 Rem. Has to be legal, has to be the right conditions... and it can't be past 300 yards.
Sorry for forgetting to answer your main question. This video for me was always about using a underpowered cartridge for very large game. While I prefer Bonded and Mono bullets I understand that cup and core bullets can be very effective. Just not my cup of tea.
I came across this video this morning and all I can say is wow. It's OBVIOUS that neither of the hosts even read the thread on Rokslide. There is an absolute ton of information on that thread about terminal ballistics with the TMK. Educate yourself instead of giving your opinion of which is an opinion. A 10mm pistol over a 223 rifle? Really?
Haha this video must have been shared on Rokslide. As I told the others... Sierra does make the TMK for every caliber. You do realize that right? I'll ask you... why would you use a 223 for elk? So you can go brag about it online with your buddies? What happens when you don't make a good shot on an elk with a 223? How ethical are you?
What happens when you don’t make a good shot on an elk with a 300 win mag?
@colesammons2137 Are you really arguing that a 223 is more effective at killing with a bad shot than a 300 Win mag? All you guys are in love with a match bullet... go use it in a 300 Win mag
I’m not arguing anything I asked a question. Nothing is effective at killing with a bad shot. A 223 through the vitals is a 100% better killer than a 300 win mag in the ass.
@@ReloadingWeatherby I'd bet you flinch and miss
Didnt take long watching this to realize these guys are not serious about rifles or hunting.
Many ars have 20" barrels.
Just because it is an ar does not make it less power.
The hornady manual on my desk shows a 60 grain sp will load to 3,200 fps with BLC2.
Most people hunting deer do not take 400 yard shots. Most people hunting deer live around corn and trees. There my average range is 3 yards. many shotgun states they shoot them with a smooth bore 12 gauge rifled slug. Do the math.
I live in wyoming. Last deer i shot with 300 in mag in open rolling hills was 65 yards. We both crested the same hill from opposite directions.
Many states have recently legalized 223 for deer. We have better bullets and powders than ever before. Fill out a ballistics chart on a 60 grain hornady sp at 3200 fps with a bc of .26 200 yards is easy for deer with that.
Many of us hunt multiple species. Being able to shoot antelope, deer, and elk on the same day with 300 win mag is nice. When im in thick ravines, 223 is nice to be able to shoot deer, rabbits, turkey, and mountain lion in same day.
Again, most places with big deer hunting, white tails are within 50 yards. Most places with mule deer everyone is hinting elk instead.
I bet i could kill an elk with 223 at the right distance with a well placed shot. Not legal here so i wont.
When im in wide places hunting deer i carry 300 win mag. I do take 400 yard shots with it. But i practice at 600.
A 400 yard shot with 30 06 usually has similar power to a 100 yard shot with 223 load i described above.
Hunt with the rifle you shoot.
Not all hunting rifles need to he $5k.
If it gets people out hunting its good.
You worry too much about kinetic energy. Go calculate the kinetic energy at 20 yards with the minimum required archery set up in your state. Youll be amazed.
You should read about all the black powder rifle and black powder pistol hunting that is done.
You guys really need to get out more.
Also your data on 30-06 at 400 yards being the same as a 223 at 100 yards is laughably off.
Do you eat your cereal will a knife? A fork? Can you do it? Yes, but there are better options. Do I need credentials to be able to speak about common sense? It’s obvious if you stop overthinking it.
Did you really just say that you would rather have a 10mm than a .223/5.56?
That one statement alone just killed all your credibility
That is beyond ignorant, mate, you’re forgetting about accuracy, recoil, the ability to make follow up shots, capacity, and what that little bullet does to flesh moving at those speeds. That’s an insane statement
I have yet to see these bulletproof bears we supposedly have walking around everywhere.
If it’s made of flesh and blood and you know where to shoot then a 22lr can and has taken down every animal on earth so you’re talking crazy
Bigger caliber bullets don’t make up for the fact that you can’t shoot and I believe that’s what has sold most people on this concept
Native Alaskans that hunt to feed their family use .223/5.56 everyday to kill elk, moose, polar bear, grizzly, and everything else with a pulse that is eatable so there’s no debate.
It can be done ethically
A record grizzly was killed with 22 long which is less powerful than a 22lr and people kill grizzly bears with 9mm pistols every year so don’t believe everything you read online, mate, you’ll make yourself look foolish.
We forget that the mountain men 200 years ago hunted every animal in North America with something that had roughly the same power as a 9mm Luger at 100 yards.
When did people get on this kick of believing you need a 50 cal to hunt grasshoppers, it’s insane.
The greatest elk hunter I’ve seen or heard about said that the .243 just did it better than all the rest.
You guys need to stop subscribing to these gun magazines that use advertisements to make you believe that the rifle You have isn’t good enough
I’m not saying it’s the best caliber to hunt large game by any means but in the right hands under the right circumstances it most definitely can get it done.
I’m a 6.5 Grendel guy myself
Awesome cartridge
GOD BLESS YOU ALL
If you don’t have a good shot then you should pass on the shot, no matter what caliber you’re using, that’s what a real hunter does.
It’s funny how people talk about these smaller rounds not being “ethical” while believing that using a bigger caliber will allow them to take bad shots successfully but no matter how big the cartridge is if you don’t hit the right spot then you’re likely to lose that animal so to me that seems more unethical than using a smaller caliber every day of the week.
Listen, if you can shoot the caliber you have well, know your limits, are able to pass on bad shots and use the right bullet then you’ll do fine.
Stop jumping on the bandwagon with all the other “Hunters” that have no clue what they are talking about and just go in repeating whatever they seen or heard some other clown pretending to be a a pro that doesn’t have a clue what he’s talking about either.
Don’t take my word for it go Google and see how many attacking brown bear have been STOPPED with little 9mm pistols all the time
As a matter of fact the 9mm has been used SUCCESSFULLY on attacking bears more than just about every other pistol caliber out there yet we listen to greenhorns tell us that anything under a cannon with a nuke taped to it will somehow bounce off these armor plated bears and “piss them off” 😂 but we have way more than a few accounts of it being done with the calibers you guys scoff at so who do you wanna listen to The guys that’s been there and done that or the guys in their basement pretending to know everything there is to know on the topic?
I think I’ll stick with MY OWN experience and you do you just remember that you can’t kill what you can hit because you’re scared of the recoil and follow up shots aren’t even on the table at that point so use the gun you shoot the best and use a bullet with proper construction for the task at hand
I’ll take 5 hits with a 22lr over a miss with a 50cal all day long
Keep Shooting
Be Safe
GOD BLESS YOU ALL
I am going to estimate that you're referring to the Alaskan Inuit/Members of the First Nations when you refer to Alaskan Natives. Alaskan Natives actually used the .222 Remington, not the .223 as you suggest. And for polar bear, the .250 Savage was preferred because the Inuit believed that the increase in power was necessary for the big white bears. In either case, the 30-06 SPRG largely replaced both cartridges. And that was decades ago. Sure, I suppose that there are a few Natives running around using a 223. Anything is possible. But from what I've heard & read, most of the Inuit use 30-06 SPRG rifles for hunting, which also makes complete sense. You can't tell me with a straight face that the 223 Remington is better for big game hunting than an '06.
@@miker258 I also would refrain from heaping praise onto the 9mm as a bear stopper. A huge Alaskan brown bear that had killed a hiker a few years back was found with .38 caliber bullets in its hide when Alaska State Troopers killed the bruin. The hiker had been found with an empty .38 Special revolver. 9mm is hardly more powerful. But you carry what you want, it's your life.
@@highplainsdrifter9631 A 9mm Luger has nearly double the energy of a .38 special.
Interesting. Do people really use light cartridges on big game or is it just the odd ‘been done’ causing a racquet? Surely most people select the right tool for the job.
Oh neat, a video version of every comment in that thread from the people who didn’t bother to read any of it.
Oh neat... another goof ball that thinks hunting elk with a 223 is ethical
Do you think bow hunting elk is ethical?
@koscheithedeathless1838 No... but since you want to make that comparison. I will concede if you decide to hunt Elk with a 223 within 30 yards... like a bow hunter. Also answer me this... why use a 223 Rem? Can't handle the recoil of a bigger cartridge? Just your ego of proving it can be done?
Ha! You got me. I’m highly suspicious of bowhunting and have only engaged in it reluctantly for filling tags. I apologize for my unnecessarily rude opening comment.
I actually don’t think that .223 is an adequate elk cartridge. I’m of the opinion that it may or may not be depending on many more important variables. I think the real point of that thread is tricking people into training with a .223 bolt gun so they get far better at understanding those variables.
How many foot pounds does an arrow deliver?
So... are you arguing people should use a 223 Remington for Elk, Moose and Bear?
@@ReloadingWeatherby not at all. I do however ponder the peculiarity revolving around the topic of ethical/humane in context of hunting as vast majority of 223/556 shots are expended at people, and whether for defensive or offensive reasons, I wonder if the same virtue of ethical minimums should be discussed for defensive calibers as well. What is the ethical minimum for defense against humans?
@Pierce R That's a different topic. Why is the sky blue? Wadda 'bout, how too many donuts can kill people?
Broadblades are a different mechanism. They kill differently. Can you harvest a Deer with a "short distance boulder"? Possibly.
Just because you CAN do something doesn't mean you SHOULD do something.
Ethics matter. We should have respect for the animals we hunt.
@@jasonforester4572 😂
@@jasonforester4572 I doubt anyone subscribed, liking, and providing RW Podcast comments, disagrees a 223 isn’t an ideal deer, elk, bear round. I wasn’t asking a rhetorical question either. I was asking for the content creators opinion.
I hunt with match Ammo
Trust me, it works
GOD BLESS YOU ALL
We never said it couldn't.... just extremely stupid to hunt very large game with a 223
@@ReloadingWeatherby only stupid shots
If you are comfortable with your ability to put the shot where you want it and responsible enough to only take shots you know you can make then there’s nothing stupid about it.
Stupid is having some caliber You believe is king and taking dumb shots because of that belief and injuring animals that will get away to suffer.
If you don’t think a round that can penetrate 1/2” steel plates, with M855A1, won’t get the job done on anything made of flesh and blood, under certain circumstances, then it’s You that’s “stupid”, mate.
GOD BLESS YOU ALL
@miker258 I wouldn't advice taking poor shots with a big caliber either. Answer me this... why use a 223 for elk? Is it because you can't handle recoil from a bigger cartridge? Or you like stroking your ego? So you can brag on the Internet? Just because it can do it doesn't make it a good option.
@@ReloadingWeatherby if anyone here is “stroking their ego” here it’s You, mate.
The fact that you can’t see that is hilarious.
Are you aware that the vast majority of native Alaskans in the north hunt everything with .223/5.56?
Would you call them “unethical”?
They kill more game in a year than the rest of us will our entire lives so maybe it’s You that don’t know what you’re talking about
I bet that’s never even crossed your mind, has it?
GOD BLESS YOU ALL
Only whitetails for me, and I have a 243 & 308. I heard Heimo (from Last Alaskans) uses a 22-250.
The second you said 10mm over a 223 you lost me. Substantially less energy with a 10mm.
th-cam.com/video/pWdd6_ZxX8c/w-d-xo.htmlsi=b_8QkzKPMmaqSxRd
Personally I caught my first polar bear with 22-250.
Caught? Did you catch and release like it was a fish?
Obvious the podcasters have neither read the thread mentioned, nor tried a 77gr Tipped Matchking, or 88gr ELD-m on game. You guys are opining on something you have absolutely no experience with.
Oh look... the Rokslide idiots are back
Nope just people that actually try things before having an opinion not just sit on their fat ass and say dumb shit like .308 is marginal on bear. You've gotten way more attention over this than your dumb ass deserves
How many pages did you make it into the 200 page thread filled with photographic evidence and example after example of success? I'm guessing between the both of you, you read zero pages.
All 200. th-cam.com/users/shortsx0-S1ZWhivY?feature=share
Bullshit you read all the pages. You couldn’t have done that podcast with a straight face if you had.
Are people trying to kill a moose with a 223?
rokslide.com/forums/threads/223-for-bear-deer-elk-and-moose.130488/
@@ReloadingWeatherby Jeeze Honestly I think for deer its even a little under powered. The only way I see it as effective is as a VMAX with a neck shot.
Native Alaskans use it everyday on elk moose grizzly and polar bear
Don’t believe everything you hear from “gun guys”
GOD BLESS YOU ALL
10mm auto over 223. Just stop. You have no idea what you're talking about.
Thats where my brain went...
He Chuck...😂😂
Ive killed deer with a 10.5 inch ar. And i used 55gr all they way up to mk262 77gr. And everything in between. 62 gr and up works best but like you said shot placement is key. Hell 55gr v-max works if you get within close bow range. Your milage and shooting skills may very lol
I did say it is fine for small deer.
@ReloadingWeatherby oh yes. I was just saying it works well if you know the anatomy of the animal and you can do your part behind the gun. But I've shot very large deer with it and massive hogs. It's definitely not for everyone lol and with my hand loads I would absolutely shoot a black bear with it.
How many moose, elk and bear have either of you killed?
These two are just a joke, clearly yall need the larger calibers to compensate for lack of knowledge and mabey your shooting abilities? Who knows... probably just into the bigger bore shit for braggin rights? I dont know. Hate to tell ya bud but theres been a bunch of Alaskan natives that have killed bear, moose and caribou with 223. To sit there and say youd rather take a 10mm over a 223 is just ignorant in my opinion and also shows a bit about your character. Dont scoff at what other people choose to hunt with especially if you have no clue of their backgrounds or what kind of shooter they are.
Key word of the video is “ideal.” If you go beyond that you’re putting words in my mouth. Is it ideal? No
We should not be negative. No one agrees on everything and people seem to love to debate their choice of cartridges to hunt with. We must also take into consideration the amount of people that read more mags and watch hunt tv than actually shoot or hunt. So that 300 mag referenced may well be way to much gun. I work with many people who shoot. Most are not the shots they feel they are. Also there is shooting off a bench all sand bagged or lead sled then there is field shooting. Big difference.
I understand the trend in fishing light line class on big fish or long range bow or long range rifle hunting (bragging/challenge) in general (not my thing at all).
I find bow hunting results with chasing blood trails (animal bleeds to death) and similar with copper bullets ( no expansion, passes through like an arrow at the longer distances 200+ yds).
Instead of making a video bashing a forum thread, then posting a link in the comments and calling it stupid, why not reach out to the forum owners and see if they or some 223 advocates would be open to a debate. It would be more productive and interesting than this video where its 2 people who share the same opinion.
You guys sure are sensitive over there.
You felt the need to make a video on a topic, only had a discussion with someone who agrees with you and are not open to debating someone with opposing viewpoints….. you must work for CNN.
@B-ib8xw Not worth my time... if you didn't notice this video has hardly any views. No one cares... except the 20 of you from Rokslide.
For the record... my biggest issue is using a very light bullet in a very under powered cartridge. As I told your other cronies... Sierra makes the TMK for larger calibers. Certainty you could handle the recoil of a 308 Win right?
@@ReloadingWeatherbyHow much difference would it make in 308, and why do you think it's important?
glad you made a video on this
Just stupid to use that small of a cartridge on big game
@@ReloadingWeatherby that’s your opinion.
I think it’s “stupid” to believe a round that can punch through 1/2” cold rolled steel plates, M855A1, couldn’t take an elk.
GOD BLESS YOU ALL
I've seen a large whitetail deer shot with a 22 long rifle at 80 yards hit in the vitals. It went 20 yards and fell over deader than a stump. wouldn't believe it if I didn't see it. Im not saying its ethical but range and shot placement is key. I I wouldn't have taken that shot. Ibe also seen my uncle shoot a deer at over 100 yards with a 22 hornet and same results. He turned to me after the shot and said "shot placement is everything" because i was questioning the shot
I’ve hunted pronghorn with a 223 and 70 grain TSXs. Tons of fun, as I limit myself to 150 yards when I take it out. Have to get close. For work, I’ve euthanized pronghorn, mule deer, and elk with the same load. I hunt deer and elk with a 270wsm. If I were moose hunting, I’d probably run the old 30-06 and some 180 grain monolithics.
I saw a video were a guy was on a snowmobile and he came across a moose, and the animal charged him. The man was armed with a handgun and killed it, yet the moose was close.
Speed defeats armor NOT DISTANCE!
Neither of you presented any data to back your opinions. And neither of you are qualified by experience. Lame.
You haven't presented any data to back up your opinion. And you aren't qualified by experience either. Lame.
There is literally a 3800 post thread with many dead elk by way of .223 with *gasp*...match bullets. They work fine within their velocity window.
@@jackwagon1798 😆 🤣 😂 Did I ever say a 223 couldn't kill an elk? You could kill an elk with a 22LR if you wanted to. What happens when you make a poor shot with your 223? Not very ethical
@@ReloadingWeatherby
What happens when you make a piss poor shot with a 300 win mag? Larger calibers do not compensate for poor marksmanship.
@@PredatorSlayer41 Ideally we all want the perfect shot with any cartridge. But when people do make a poor shot, I'll take a 300 Win mag with a bonded bullet over a 223 with a TMK. Let's say you put the shot up it's rear end. TMK is going to blow up not reaching any vitals. Win mag could actually penetrate to the vitals and possibly have an exit wound providing more blood loss.
Look I completely understand the desired effect of a cup and core bullet that blows up providing a quick death. But you have to hit it in the right spot and hope you don't hit bone.
223 for elk, moose and bear? NO.
Will it kill those animals? Absolutely. Will you recover the animal? Probably not.
Show respect for the animal and shoot a cartridge that will work under the worst case scenario not one that may or may not work under the ideal scenario.
@@es4583 thanks for the link, I'm not going to bother with it. If you want to talk real world experience v your internet search, I've killed game animals with 22LR through 577NE. And just about everything in between. I've said it before and I'll say it again, a 223 is a fine cartridge for varmints and small game, it is NOT a cartridge for medium or big game. Why anybody wants to pull the stunt of shooting game with a 223, when there are so many better options, is beyond comprehension. Opportunities are getting fewer and fewer and the public perception of hunter is low enough. Just simply switch to a more effective cartridge. Just because something can be done, does not mean that it should be done.
@@es4583 do you understand that those people are not putting on the web/their bragging board the animals that go off wounded or the ones not recovered? I never said it can't be done, I said that it shouldn't be done.
@@es4583 zero real world experience? I'll happily put the thousands of real world game animals I've personally killed up against your internet-hero claims. You obviously don't have the experience to know that bullets do some odd things as they travel through an animal. Hair, hide, muscle, bone, blood and organs all have varying densities, hence different affects on a bullet and it travels through the animal.
I have killed eland (the world's biggest antelope) with a 223 and also with a 243. In no way would I recommend that. Those cartridges are too small and their bullets too light for that animal. If you think about it the world record (for a time) grizzly was killed with a 22LR. That does not make a 22LR a good choice for grizzly hunting. I will say it again, just because something can be done, does not mean it should be done.
@@es4583 I never claimed to have used a 77 grain anything in a 223 of any other caliber. Interestingly I don't think you have experience outside of a keyboard search. Use what ever bullet you want. I couldn't care less what you and your hillbilly friends want to do. From what you have written, I doubt you have ever shot anything that didn't involve a computer game. Enjoy your teen years.
@@es4583 how is this TMK “modern bullet technology”? It’s a cup and core match bullet and on Sierra’s website they clearly state that it’s not intended for most hunting situations.
This is definitely an interesting topic to discuss/debate, because I find that those who are using the 223 Remington on big game seem to not comprehend the fact that it is not an ideal big game hunting cartridge. It's not even the best choice of the 22 centerfire crowd as it is, so why choose it? The 22-250 & 220 Swift are better options for a couple of reasons, one being accuracy potential. And even then, marginal. Someone elsewhere on this thread states that his uncle used a 22-250 on big game for years and lost more than a few animals. He eventually traded up to a 308 Winchester. If that isn't a shining example of how the 22 centerfires are marginal for big game, and sometimes not even enough gun, then you are beyond reason. From what I have observed over the years, the crowd that favors Small items tend to shout louder than those who are using what is viewed as a standard tool for the job. Its akin to barking at someone who owns a diesel truck that your Mitsubishi MightyMax does just as good and even better of a job for hauling firewood. Nobody is saying that a 223 won't kill big game. Even a 22LR will kill big game, under exactly perfect conditions. What I'm saying is simply what has been an accepted truth for decades: Use Enough Gun. There is also the Taylor KO Theory, which can be useful to look at if you're curious about the lethality of a certain cartridge. At the end of the day, people are going to carry & shoot what they want to. People are also stubborn bastards, and if you want to take the North American Slam with a 223 Remington then be my guest. You might have some problems with legality in some regions, and some animals may prove to be a problem. If you've got a trophy ram at 600 yards with a strong crosswind in a blizzard, God help you.
From what the Rokslide community has told me it has to do with the 77 gr SMK bullet. They think it does wonders on big game.
The answer is Bella Twin if you know the story .
Wow talk about a waste of air. When you listen to these guys they have NO personal experience, yet continue with "I feel like", " In my opinion " , "I think".
You both clearly lack understanding of exterior ballistics, experience, and knowledge.
Clearly neither of you bothered to review "the thread". The pictures of the game taken, and the wound cavities should be enough to make you question yourselves. The thread you refer to include kills on walrus, moose, brown bear, elk, and everything smaller.
I've never smoked cigarettes... guess I have no business telling others to not do it and that it could lead to lung cancer.
COYOTE for me.
Where the smallest of deer species live, Id want bigger then 223.
Yeah
.223 dumps its' energy in to the vitals, not beyond it.
It is all about shot placement.
150 yds and less, no abstructions. Aim for the top of the heart, and use a monolithic or bonded expanding bullet.
A 130 grain .270 jacketed soft point against bone will shed 2 thirds of its' weight before the vitals, thus same weight as a mono .223 which retains 95% of its' weight through bone and through vitals.
Everyone compares FPS, energy, and calibre size.
Realistically there are only 3 things that bring down big game:
Lowering blood pressure,
Disruption of vital organs,
Central nervous system disruption.
A .223 can cut a heart in half, reduce the blood pressure instantaniously, and has enough speed to disrupt central nervous system if shot is high.
A deer is 10 times smaller than a moose, and .270 is good for moose.... so .223 is good for deer.
Wouldn't recommend .223 for game bigger than 300 lbs, only for the simple fact that the bones are larger.
A .223 is also more trustworthy than a broadhead.
😎👍👍👍😎
Thanks for watching Mike!
Thanks for having me on
Thanks for doing it!
Why do you care so much? If you dont like it thats fine. But to condemned and ignoring the facts posted about the 77tmk is disingenuous. 77tmk proven to be ethical time and time again. Wnat you should of argued against is match bullets being Too Good with their ballistic. That it takes out to much meat
Just sharing my opinion like you are... I never said it couldn't be done. I just think there are a lot better options to do the job.
@@ReloadingWeatherbyThat's fair and I respect it. My brother in Christ, this was interpretation of it. I could be wrong but you came off as a bit hostile and biased towards it. So thanks for replying
My uncle used to hunt with the 22-250 when it first came out and used it to take deer and elk doing head shots with solid bullets and he had more then a few that got away! He switched to the 308 and had a lot more success with elk even though he hated recoil! I haven’t checked but I the 22-250 is illegal to hunt elk in most states! Just my 2 cents from 60+ years of hunting and reloading
Yeah its dumb but I feel the same way about people who hunt big game with a 6.5 Creedmoor... but why?
Haha me and you both
You might wanna go watch the yt video of a young lady bringing down a big bull elk at 395yds with a 6.5 Grendel.
Bigger doesn’t always mean better, mate
GOD BLESS YOU ALL
I don’t have a .223, but I do have a pair of .222. I love them, for ground hogs and prairie dogs, and that’s it. Could I use them for deer? Yes. But I hardily agree with you when you ask why, when there’s so many better cartridges for that.
There’s plenty of reasons like recoil sensitivity, accuracy, capacity, and not everyone has a bunch of different rifles laying around costing thousands of dollars with ridiculously expensive ammo so they pick one that can do it all no matter what people feel about it because when you’ve gotta put food on the table all the other bs goes out the window.
It’s insane to me to hear people saying that it can’t be done because I can assure you it can, has, and will do it just fine.
Go to northern Alaska and see what the natives use to hunt everything from grizzly, polar bear, and even whale
They use .223/5.56 and they don’t ever have any issues because they don’t go online and listen to all these self proclaimed “professionals” telling them “It won’t work”
You’re all being fooled by marketing telling you that you need this new gun with this new caliber and anything else is just “inhumane” nevermind the hundreds of years of records proving different.
In the 1700’s the gun they used for EVERYTHING had the same energy as a modern 9mm at 100yds and it did the job just fine.
World record grizzly was killed with 22 long by a little old Indian woman
Put the round where it needs to go and it will do the job
Period
GOD BLESS YOU ALL
This reply is not meant to be argumentative. It’s just a friendly discussion.
1. Recoil sensitivity. Too sensitive for a .243 or 7mm-08? But perhaps the person has a bad shoulder, so okay.
2. Capacity. I hunt big game in PA, NY, and Canada. I’m not allowed to carry an AR in PA or NY. I’m not sure I can bring one into Canada.
3. Expensive rifles. In Canada, the .303 is still used for moose. They can be picked up for +/- $100.
4. More power. When I go to the Adirondacks for deer, or Canada for moose, I have limited time. Less than perfect shot scenarios often are my only choice. I want more power for a racking, or longer range shot.
All that being said, I understand your point. I’ve told my grandson that anything can kill anything. I wouldn’t want to be hit by a .22 short, let alone a .223. There’s a pile of dead NVA troops that would say the 5.56 is very effective.
Why?
Money.
Sad
@@ReloadingWeatherby In Argentina I saw a guy hunting guanaco with a .22lr
He also had a 308 but its ammo was too expensive due to Argentina's economic situation.
Im 24 years old I killed a cow elk an bull elk with a 223 dpms oracle ar 15 only take two bullets too kill a cow elk a bull elk u gotta shoot them 4 times with a 223 an they work good for grizzlies I got attacked by grizzlies multiple times an my 223 piece bone an shoot for the neck on animal I use army gradeFMJs that burn really hot too break bone I use match hollows points 223 hollow points they only go 12 inches of penetration an I shoot mule deer an white tail far out with a 223 Remington an I use a 7.62x39 ar 15 on elk u don’t even know u killed them elk when u shoot at them u gotta walk out there where u shot them than u find him dead
Right...
Definitely with a bolt gun
Agreed NO.
Unless grievest of situations. But "sporting use" No we OWE more to the animals we hunt.
Better be shots to the DOME
With the absolute minimum of a 16” Barrel, Using a 62-65 grain game bullet loaded to 5.56 specs, I’d be more then comfortable taking whitetail no further then 100 yards.
Anything else bigger? Nope. I can’t stand trailing game, If the animal isn’t down It bothers me when I need to trail, even with a more then adequate caliber for what I’m hunting.
I agree, thanks for commenting!
No.
Not even close.
What are the odds of killing an Elk with a 22 WMR? 😂
Make that perfect shot... haha
WASTE of air time
223 Rem? I think it has its purpose
Why would they try to use .223 on an elk or moose? Because they don't have the money to buy the proper equipment and are will to risk it. I mean come on guys, a savage 270 win is like $300. If you can't afford that, why are you hunting??
I have no idea why they would do it.
@@ReloadingWeatherby lack of funds. My wife and I have ARs, but we also spent the money for a suitable elk rifle. You also want to consider human kills.
@@ReloadingWeatherby it totally is laziness lol
If you were poor and it was your only gun and you were putting meat on the table and you got within 100 yards…….?????? Maybe. But a bad choice.
Yep
Is it April Fools again??
rokslide.com/forums/threads/223-for-bear-deer-elk-and-moose.130488/
Like digging a swimming pool with a spoon
That's a good analogy
For me, probably a coyote or a wolf, if I had to. I would only use it on deer in a survival situation. But, actually, I don’t have anything smaller than a 243 Win. in my collection. I’m not a proponent of the minimalist caliber and cartridge school for a given class of game.
Im the one that brought this forum to your attention for your opinion. I do agree, can it be done, yes, should it be?, only last resort. I beleive the animal deserves a more ethical death than a slow one. This is a great yote, fox, med small game caliber, not intended for large heavy boned game. Yes the pictures were impressive on the forum, but thats only when the bullet performs properly and great shot placement. Their is a reason why their are cartridge/caliber minimums in hunting. Same goes for hunting with larger for caliber than what you are hunting. Solo hunters like myself would rather carry more than a 6mm or 6.5 in the woods. Why you ask, because theres other things in the woods besides deer, like protective moma bears that you may stumble across like i have a few times. Not a fun experience. Did i have to shoot it, no, but im glad i had what i had if i needed it.
Cool learn how bullets kill
@@lycheeznuts haha exactly
GOD BLESS YOU ALL
What would make you believe a 30 cal could do something a .264 cal couldn’t?
You need more experience, mate
Stop believing the things you read
6mm and 6.5 are more than capable and hearing what you just wrote is always a dead giveaway that someone is a greenhorn.
GOD BLESS YOU ALL
Wow some butt hurt people over the 223/556 use for 🦌 coyotes small and some medium game ok. But would not be first choice for 🦌 for that matter. Long live the 270 win good video guys
Wow, that thread is ridiculous. Unless you’re in a survival situation and have nothing else available there is no reason to hunt anything bigger than small whitetail with a .223.
Based off what? Something your grandpappy told you when you were 14?
Did you actually read it and look at the photos?
@@lycheeznutsBased off of a lifetime of hunting experience.
@@NCWoodlandRoamerHunters in NZ been using 222 amd 223 for years on red deer, much bigger than that little whitetail
@@egrootveldyes, I did. I saw a lot of deer with massive amounts of meat damage and a handful of elk and a couple moose and black bear. Why doesn’t someone in that thread go up to Kodiak for a brown bear or what the heck, head over to Africa and pop a Cape buffalo or rino with one?
Just because you have a gun doesn’t mean your smart enough to be using it! 🤔😳 it’s illegal in my state to hunt elk with a 223!
Lord Jesus Christ loves you!❤
I know