Anti-villains are so great because they can so easily be us. We can be the enemy soldier who was drafted to fight in a war against the protagonist's country. We can be the bank employee whose job is to foreclose on the protagonist's house. We can be the second guy in the love triangle opposing the protagonist.
We could be the insurance agent whose job it is to inform a cancer patient that their treatment isn't covered by the policy they have, or in this messed up world, we could end up killing someone's sibling, parent, or child in self defense when we're attacked during a mental health episode. Sometimes circumstances out of our control that we have no power over can make us someone's most hated villain, when really there may be no right place to put blame for the things that happen.
Favorite anti hero’s John and Jane smith ( mr and mrs smith dvd) John wick ( I will agree with you there ) Lorraine from Atomic blonde ( not quite sure she fits anti hero but her ways in the spy world seems like a lovable anti hero to me at least.)
Inspector Javert from Les Miserables is a great anti-villain. He only does what he does because he's sure God, the law, and the entire hierarchy of justice are on his side. As soon as he can't resolve the world into clean black and white anymore, it destroys him. For a great anti-hero: Riddick.
Scar from the Full Metal Alchemist anime is a well written anti-villian. Scar survives the Ishvalian war and goes on a holy war against the state alchemists, the "magic" wielding super soldiers who slaughtered his people. He is so blinded by his hatred he attacks alchemists that had nothing to do with the war. Even by his own admission his acts of vengeance to against the religious teachings of his people. This causes Scar to abandon his birth name which his people view as a gift from God. Despite his wrathful nature, Scar is an ethical man who gives his victims time to pray to their Gods before their death. He even shows mercy to alchemists who repent in their final moments by ensuring their final wishes/messages are passed on and giving them a painless death. In one episode an alchemist fused his dog and young daughter together in order to keep his state funding. Upon killing the alchemist and finding the abhorrent fusion, he laments the young girls fate offering her peace through a painless death and reassuring her she will be reunited her with her father soon. Over time he transitions into a full on anti-hero when the big baddies who ordered the whole sale slaughter of his people try do to the same to to their own.
Darth Bane is a perfect example of a compelling villain who is also the main protagonist of the story. You want him to succeed against the Jedi and his enemies among the Sith because of how his character is written. He respects only one thing: strength and his creed is survival of the fittest.
Tom Hiddleston does a great job of Loki, who I would identify as an anti-villain. His charm and charisma is so important. You like to see his comeuppance, but you like it even more when he unexpectedly does good, the tragedy is that you know it won't last.
I will agree that Killmonger is the better villain but I will knife fight anyone who says he's a better character then Lowki. In the first Thor, Avengers, and Thor 3 you can see he is a good person deep down but Lowki feels he's to far gone until the end of Thor 3. Killmonger is so consumed by his pain, anger and hate, he has no where to go. He's never going to forgive, and is only going try his genocidal plan again.
The Elric Saga is unmined cinematic gold. As for Elric the character, as a Melnibonean, he isn't human, so his sometimes alien point of view informs his actions. Examine him as part of his own culture, and his actions and motivations become less apparently aberrant, though even his fellow Melniboneans held him apart as an outsider, especially after he earned the epithet "womanslayer." =^[.]^=
Lelouch vi Britannia from Code Geass is my favorite antihero. He had a strong sense of ethics and the power he receives goes against it. He firmly believes that the will of humanity should not be dominated by the strong, that he should take care of those such as his crippled younger sister, more powerful people should not be able to control them. However, the power he receives allows him to force people to obey one command from him. With that power he does several vile things that he regrets, and the execution in the story really sells it. He's also pretty good with rhetoric, for an anime.
(Spoilers for the second season) Since his end game results in him being seen by the world as embodying all the sins, hate, and evil of mankind before he voluntarily sacrifices his own life, is he an antihero? I’ve always viewed him as a highly pragmatic, maverick hero
One of my favorite anti-hero is Jorg Ancarth from "Prince of Thorns". What makes an anti-hero enjoyable for me is the fact that while their motives and end goals might be virtuous, they aren't limited in their methods and tend to do whatever necessary to achieve victory, as opposed to a regular hero who is often defeated due to their clinginess to remaining 'good'.
Mike Ehrmantraut from Breaking Bad is a great example of an anti-villain in more than one way. First his role as an enforcer for a drug kingpin clearly puts him in the villains camp, secondly he is antagonistic to the main character; therefore he's not only bad (and in a place usually reserved for at best two-dimensional goon type characters) but opposed to the main point of view character. However, this is all flipped on its head as while we don't get internal monologues his actions conform to a strong code of ethics, and he's shown not so much as a good person as the closest to a good and ethical person as you'll find so deep in the drug trade. Even when he works with Walter White he shows disgust at the main character's hypocrisy and ruthlessness, thus providing a clear moral compass to the series which most of the other classic anti-hero stories lack which allows too many audience members license to unreservedly root for main characters who are objectively evil. Most of Walter White's enemies are worse than himself, but characters like Mike flip things around by providing an antagonist who the protagonist cannot simply destroy while remaining even remotely sympathetic. Mike is also a phenomenal example of a breakout character, but that's a story for another day.
Falling Down comes to my mind. Michael Douglas plays a guy who is clearly in the midst of a psychological breakdown and becomes obsessed with seeing his daughter and estranged wife, and meanwhile kills anyone obstructing his path. Then on the flip side it shows how the daily frustration of modern society can possibly exacerbate the internal issues we all have. Like, anyone could be one bad day away from being his character.
BJ Chester - I kinda liked that movie and disliked it. It's a parable for liberals in trying to say this is what conservatives are - in other words if you're a conservative eventually you're going to go nuts and shoot up people in a McDonald's. I remember watching it and thinking I actually agree with this guy. Keep in mind I haven't seen it in years so I don't remember a lot accept the feeling I got.
He actually takes his rage out on a lot of people that have it coming, though not all equally or necessarily deserving of his rage. He defends himself from thugs (that happen to be Hispanic), he kills a Nazi scumbag, he scares a Vietnamese store owner who is selling overpriced pop, he frightens some rich pompous white guys. Basically everyone from every conceivable background is on the receiving end of his breakdown, be they racists, minorities, average working schmoes, rich privileged old farts; no one is safe from him, least of all his family who he is ultimately after. Also, he doesn't shoot up the McDonald's, at least not any person in that scene that I recall. He just snaps when he's told he can't order breakfast anymore and gets even more pissed when he sees the sloppy, pathetic burger they give him. It's funny because of how it points out the false advertising fast food chains take part in every single day. Burger joints are especially guilty of this.
Elric was a great example of an anti-hero in fantasy literature. Michael Moorcock is a genius. Some of the works of Piers Anthony -- Zane as Death in On A Pale Horse, might be another. In cinema, Clint Eastwood's vintage movies like Dirty Harry, the Dollars Trilogy (Man with No Name) and Unforgiven are great anti-heroic characters. Some of my favorites of all time.
I like to write (or should I say, happen to write) anti-heroes because it's one way to help you avoid writing a Marry Sue. Or other times, their indifference is one of their strengths (emotional detachment gives them ability to plan their actions more rationally). Moreover, breaking out of their assoholines (at least sometimes) can provide tension and such (though I admit that one is rather cliche). However, when I do that, then I usually include a side character to provide a moral angle.
That's interesting, because I often find that the more 'sue-like' characters are supposed to be anti-heroes. The idea that most people have is that being an 'anti-hero' is your ticket to write a cool character who can get away with anything. I personally don't see anything wrong with paragons as long as you show them struggling with some thing, although for them, it's often external as internally they're usually calm or at least more in control. I dunno, I guess its how you write, but I often find anti-heroes to be written just to be edge lords which, in my opinion defeats the purpose.
Hero : do good in purpose for good Villain : do bad in purpose for bad Anti hero : do bad in purpose for good Anti villain : do good in purpose for bad
I like Anti-Hero’s because they are realistic, instead doing something virtuous like letting a dangerous criminal live and go to prison, many people would interoperate someone doing that just to look good in real life, in other words, being “fake”. Anti Hero’s actually seem to have a grip on reality which ties us in or helps us understand their universe a little bit better
To put simple : Hero : He will save the day. Anti Hero : He will save the day but he will open some skulls. Villain : He will make the day dark and gloomy. Anti Villain : He will make the day dark and gloomy but he will give some good to the peopole.
One of my favorite examples is Arthas from Warcraft 3. Arthas starts a Lawful-Good/Lawful-Neutral hero, into a Chaotic-Good anti-hero. He then continues his fall and ends up fully Neutral-Evil when he becomes the Lich King.
Blonde in “The Good, The Bad, and The Ugly”. I also always liked Bud from “LA Confidential” a lot. He was genuinely a good guy, but would ignore rules and even break the law to uphold his moral code.
I see Bud White as more of just a dark hero since he never really takes action for personal gain. He might break the law but it is actually to enforce objective standards of justice.
Magneto is the ultimate antihero I think. Because depending on your viewpoint, he can so easily be the hero of a story from his POV. Prof X and Magneto at first glance seem like the classic hero v villain but in actual fact their goals are aligned- safety for mutant kind- but their method/ideology to achieve that goal are polar opposites. Depending on what you believe in terms of passivity vs action, non-violent protest vs rebellion either character could be the villainous one (though of course Magneto is coded as the one we probably shouldn't root for). Which is why the X Men/mutantkind issues resonates with so many movements/cultures, because its about an oppressed people looking for a method with which to prove their humanity/worth, and asks us if their heinous acts can ever be justified. It works so well in the movies, especially in First Class when we see Magneto hunting down Nazis, something most people agree with, despite the fact its essentially serial killing.
Raskolnikov from Dostoevsky's Crime and Punishment is probably one of the best 'anti-heroes I've read so far. Dostoevsky does an incredible job of exploring Raskolnikov's psyche. It's hard to not to sympathize with him on some level, even though he's done something terrible. As an interesting villain I also enjoy Tywin Lannister from ASOIAF.
Good distinctions. I may have misappropriated the term anti-hero in the past. I like interesting anti-heroes, but extremely flawed characters beyond the realm of realism seems to be an ubiquitous concept in today’s media. I would consider Han Solo and Lando middle of the road anti-heroes.
Aren't they too charismatic and good natured to fall into that category? I mean when did eighter of them killed innocents because it was "necessary", or any other type of dispicable things.
Dr. Doom from Marvel comics. A close runner up is David Xanatos from Gargoyles. Both exhibit patience, planning, and even ways to succeed even if they fail.
Dr Doom is more of an antivillain though. He constantly tries to conquer lands and doesn't hesitate killing and threatening heroes to achieve his goals, but he actually cares about his very own people, which make him a genuinely kind ruler but an rather evil opponent. I do admit, however, that in some instances he is antiheroic, but let's face it, he is mostly bad. Mostly. I don't know about Xanatos.
@@OddSifr Xanatos was a villain, he shifted to a more heroic stance over the course of the series for the sake of his family. Which is a damn great arc in and of itself. Dude tries to set up a purely utilitarian marriage, ends up legitimately falling in love with her, swallows his pride for her sake and risks everything to defy a near physical god for their child's sake. It's well executed and took enough time to make it fit.
@@OddSifr It's one of the best written and produced works I've had the pleasure of enjoying. Only a few others (Samurai Jack, and Batman Beyond among them.) have made me appreciate the art within animated shows as much.
Favorite anti-hero/villain: Alejandro from Sicario. It’s sort of conflicting though because of what he does toward the end. Maybe this would be considered a transition from anti to full villain
Red Hood would be my favorite: there is a sympathetic quality to what he does and I find it easy to cheer for. He has a similar goal to Batman only with less restriction.
4:00 when it comes to Vito Corleone's refusal to sell drugs to white kids, I always got the idea it was more a strategic calculation than any kind of 'moral standard'. His logic seemed to be that nobody important would really care if black people got hooked on drugs, but as soon as word got out that white kids were getting hooked on the stuff all hell would break loose, you couldn't possibly bribe the cops or the lawmakers enough to look the other way after that.
I haven’t watched it but I assumed it was so the amount of people on drugs was limited instead of spreading them to more people, but this makes more sense
I thought anti-villains was simply villains with sympathetic traits but still evil. Your definition sound more like what I think of as a hero antagonist.
Something modern that really blurs the line between anti-hero and sympathetic villain is Attack on Titan. As the narrative has progressed the characters that were presented as the villains all have revealed tragic and sympathetic backstories and you really come to understand them as people and why they made the decisions they did. That doesn't erase the atrocities they've committed, but when you take their environment into account it sadly seems almost inevitable. To complement the growing sympathy we have for these characters, the main character, who we've followed for the entire series thus far, reveals more and more of his monstrous nature and it becomes harder and harder to support his horrific actions, even though you know exactly why he's doing it all. We're left at a point where no character feels totally in the wrong, but no options feel right either. It rides the line of gray morality in a really impressive way.
Your description of Vito Corleone connected some dots for me. It seems to me that the modern antihero is a character that possesses all the practical virtues required for the situation he is in, but lacks the right morals. He might be clever and brave and disciplined, diligent and hardworking, but his moral compass is slightly (or severely) off, so that he prioritizes revenge, personal gain or even his nation over that which is right. This makes him overshoot, at best, and taints most victories he gains over his foes.
The most interesting Anti-Heroes and Anti-Villians to me all come from Anime. Code Geass, Death Note, the Gundam franchise, Future Diary, Fate/Zero and Fate/Stay Night, shows like those.
Totally agree with Death Note, it's a masterpiece I've watched it a number of times and recently I rewatched it again and it was still fucking awesoem for me, even though I know what happens which is fucking sad, it's still so sad for me that he lost in the end
Wakfu The villain is Nox. villains.wikia.com/wiki/Nox He is fully driven to gathering energy called Wakfu that he will use to turn back time back to when his family was still alive and then save his wife and children. The problem is wakfu is in all living things and because of his reasoning that when he turns back time all people he killed will be alive and all his wrongs will be undone he is willing to kill any one and any thing including whole continent worth of people. This is in a animated adventurer show aimed at kids.
The first thought that came to me was Alan Rickman. His villains are always the most interesting characters, but because of his acting ability. On paper, Hans Gruber or the Sheriff of Nottingham have zero redeeming qualities. But as he brought them to life, we as the audience were fascinated. We did not want those characters to win, but we wanted to see more of them on screen because of the way he brought them to life. Let's face it, Kevin Costner's Robin was such a Mary Sue. And even Morgan Freeman was wasted as the paragon in that movie. But the villain! He was the only good thing in the entire movie! Just my thoughts. Enjoying the channel!
I came across your video because I wanted to see what the difference between anti hero’s and anti villains Because when I wanted to write a short story and the main character was a sort of Anti hero/anti villain but never knew how to draw that correct. But I was thankful for your input on this topic. It was very informative and interesting to hear. So thank you 😊. Take care everyone and stay safe out there.
My favorite kind of anti-hero is the powerless paragon. Typically this is a highly virtuous every man/man child, who genuinely possess everything one needs to be a great hero, except for the fact that they either have none of the skills or abilities necessary to be a hero, and if they do they have no control over them, though sometimes they can just have terrible luck. While this character typically either evolves into a more traditional hero with alusions to his past incompetence, or a more traditional anti-hero after having his idealistic nature subverted, and by extension finding a kind of power (This is less common). Though they could always just fail and/or die. They are just so relatable, someone who want's to do right but has no power to really do anything about it, only eventually they might just become the hero they always wanted to be, or at least die trying.
Btw, as Sarah Kerrigan from Starcraft became such an iconic anti-hero, Blizzard ent. made their next WarCraft 3 main character prince Arthas a 100% carbon copy of Sarah Kerrigan, but in a male form. Her whole arc, from light to darkness. Sadly, without that femme fatale element. But anyways...
I think its interesting in Goodfellas how Henry Hill is only shown to get actively violent when Karen's neighbor assaults her and we get to see him in a heroic light. Otherwise, he's usually for restraint (eg. he repeatedly tries to save Morris from endangering himself with Jimmy; he's the only one who's disturbed by the callousness of Batts's murder and rotting corpse).
There's a good documentary about the real Henry Hill called 'The Real Goodfellas' I think. The real guys were way worse so you can see exactly where and how it got romanticized. eg Henry Hill was kind of just a drunken wild kid in real life. And Uncle Paulie was a monster in real life, eg. he beat a waitress in public with a baseball bat for snitching, but in the film he's made into this kindly avuncular figure.
I love Goodfellas, but the thing is, the more you read about the actual events the more you realise how subjective the movie is. As it's essentially the real Henry Hill's highly romantic (and probably fairly exaggerated) view on things. The same can be said about Blow (starring Johnny Depp). Here you have a guy that ran, or at least was highly involved in, a very succesful drug operation. And throughout the entire movie he never does anything 'morally' wrong. It's like when something goes wrong and it has serious consequences, it's purely because of bad luck and not because of any ill intentions of George Jung.
That character actually has 4 cinematic incarnations: Mel Gibson, Lee Marvin, Chow Yun-fat and Jason Statham have all played versions of 'Parker' originating the Richard Stark novel The Hunter. He's a great example of a character that took on a life of its own. He was meant to be a one-off character in a standalone story, dying at the end, but the publisher liked the character so much he got the author to rewrite the ending and contracted him to write more books about him. He ended up starring in 20+ novels over half a century, not to mention multiple cinematic versions with various iconic 'tough guy' actors, across cultures and generations, wanting to portray him.
A few anti heroes I like: Alex and Tom (Frontier(s)), Kiritsugu Emiya (the Fate franchise), Akeno Himejima and Xenovia Quarta (High School DxD), Koko Hekmatyar (Jormungand), Alucard and Integra Hellsing (the Hellsing series), Accelator (the A Certain series), The Lagoon Company (Black Lagoon), Cornelia (W.I.T.C.H), and Zuko (Avatar: The Last Airbender) A few Villains who I like: Raoul Silva (Skyfall), Hansel and Gretel (Black Lagoon), David Xanatos (Gargoyles), Rampage and Harley Quinn (Justice League), and Cheshire (Young Justice). Anti-villains: Hanover Fiste from the Heavy Metal franchise, Louise, Charlotte, and Nora (We are the Night), Ahmed and Salim Majhayeff (Ahmed and Salim) and Vesper Lynd (Casino Royale).
Ozymandias is my favorite Antivillain. He killed millions of people and betrayed his closest friends in order to save the world from nuclear annihilation.
My personal favorite antihero/ anti-villain is from a video game called LISA: the painful rpg with the main character Brad Armstrong. See the kicker about the game is that the villians are actually a hell of a lot better then him, but in the end brad wins and dooms the world. It's a big and highly sad game where it kicks you repeatedly in the nuts, but god damn i love it.
Debatable... The world was already doomed and the villains plans to save it, no matter how much nobler they sound, still required a kid... Id say brad starts as an anti hero that undergoes a protagonists journey to villain...
I find that the protagonist in Law Abiding Citizen is a great example of an anti-hero, or maybe even sympathetic villain. He does evil, cruel, vile things to the men who killed his wife and child, but we accept that because who gives a damn about someone who killed a parent and their child during a robbery for no reason, right? It's when the protagonist starts killing police, judges, and attempting to bomb a government building that he's crossed a moral event horizon into becoming a truly contemptible villain. The investigators, the DA, the Judge, they were all bound to do what was required of them by rule of law, and his perspective was that those enforcing the law were powerless to dispense justice, and furthermore those creating the laws were incapable of even knowing what justice was, therefore they all needed to die so that he could send a message to the world about what justice really means. I found myself knowing he would ultimately end up hoist by his own petard, because he resorted to killing people who had no choice in what they did as far as the court case against his wife and child's killers, and even sent a graphic video of the brutal dismemberment of one of the killers to (I believe, though I could be wrong) a detective on the case labelled as if it was a video of his daughter's stage performance from school (Causing the excited young girl to go from excitement to likely traumatized for life as the tape started immediately with the protagonist using a powered saw to dismember the killer). Anyone would support a man getting vengeance on his partner and child's killers, but most people stopped rooting for him when he got the blood of innocent people on his hands.
3 - Major characters come to mind from western cinema 'Blondie (The Good the Bad & the Ugly), Tony Montana (Scarface) & Snake Plissken (Escape from New York) ~~~~~~~~~~ And one from Japanese cinema 'The Nameless Samurai (Yojimbo, & Sanjuro) Blondie = Quite simply > Wonderfully A-moral... As he already knows from growing up that good & bad are interchangeable (and intermixable) and will happily exploit others & their opinions of naivate in thinking things like, that of "good & evil being polar opposites" if he can use people to make some quick money and make his life easier, he'll happily come up with the ways to exploit both sides of the equation in the situations he comes across... Tony Montana = Born in a family trying to run away from Cuba and the possibility of dying back there, eventually realizes that being a hero gets you nothing but steamrolled by less scrupulous types out there, so he decides to go the evil route and out dogs the rest of the mad dogs on the field to become a great success at his chosen path, but not only still has the morale attitude to refuse to cause the death of a young child alongside of the child's father, but actually has the fortitude to kill the assassin he's been partnered with in order to save that child, even though he knows it will likely cause the deaths of many around him aswell as possibly himself in the backlash of his actions... Snake Plissken = A former special forces soldier who's former career not only causes him to lose his morale stance in life, but causes him to end up being on the opposite side of his own former government (and its manipulative ways), leaving Snake on the only path he still feels that he can take (a path in which he is a gun for hire with some very simple rules "that he is his own form of law as 'judge, jury & executioner' of anyone who wants to try and go head to head with him" snakes loyalties are to no one & no things (not even money) he is loyal only to himself... ~~~~~~~~~~~ The Nameless Samurai = (One of the most incredible characters that director Akira Kurasawa ever got to make movies on) Nameless was born & raised in a war torn era of Japan, where everything was basically dog eat dog (at the very least), after decades of constant nationwide clan warfare had just barely started to come to an end, and leaving not only him, himself, but also countless other bloodied samurai like himself masterless and constantly trying to hire themselves out to anyone who could afford them (even the Yakuza clans), Nameless while loyal to employers who were loyal to his own sworn oath to them, became sheer hell to anyone not worth of his respect, or someone who betrayed him and his oath he gave to them.. He was the ultimate anti-hero early on in samurai cinema, and the inspiration to pretty much half of all of the old Spaghetti western cinema scene back in the 60s & 70's, being that the Spanish director Sergio Leone so loved his storyline that Kurasawa did on him, aswell as other IP's Kuraswa did, that he practically stole the story, only to rewrite it into is own take of the original, in 'A Fistfull of Dollars"... 'Yojimbo', along with 'Seven Samurai' were the two greatest inspirations the Spaghetti westerns ever had, with 'Seven Samurai' showing the Honorable heroic way to fight the hords of evil, & 'Yojimbo' the anti-hero's dishonorable way to destroy those same forces...
*Warning this is a long but hopefully insightful read!* One of my favorite anti-heroes is Geralt of Rivia from the Witcher Book series by Andrzej Sapkowski. When he is first introduced, he seems a lot like an villain protagonist, in that he moves the plot forward but he's definitely not virtuous. He's part of highly skilled guild of Warriors, that take the Gallant knight's role of protecting people by defending them from monsters, but he does it for the monetary reward, so that he can eat, drink and enjoy himself. These monsterhunters are outcasts of society, because they are taken as orphans and then put to great trials, exercise and eventually dangerous mutations. Only 3/10 children survive to adulthood, and those that do are often changed mentally and physically, they appear to lack emotion, taking gold for protecting the innocent and being portrayed as devil's spawn by the godly. In the very first scene Geralt is picked upon by two drunkards because he is an outcast, they start a fight which ends abruptly when they are mutilated and their blood sprays the surrondings. Geralt is then summoned to the king, but isn't punished, and is instead offered a job to lift the King's daughter's curse. Geralt gets to show off how truly skilled he is as a professional and the King rewards him. You can see why Geralt is not a good guy at all, he murders two people and is rewarded by a biased King. But as the story progresses we see him deal with dilemmas, such as the one which gave him the title of Butcher of Blaviken. Blaviken was a small town and Geralt had just finished a contract there when 7 bandits showed up. They wanted to kill the sorcerer who had been hiding in the highest tower, for he had cursed their leader. If the sorcerer doesn't surrender they'll raze the town and everyone within. Geralt who had just gone and seen the sorcerer for the contract tried to tell him through a locked door that he had to come out so that they could settle their dispute elsewhere. The sorcerer wouldn't budge. After trying to convince the bandits that they could return later, when the sorcerer eventually had left the tower, they tell their story of how they are indeed morally correct on wanting the sorcerer dead (because the bandit gang leader is pretty much snowwhite and the sorcerer told a prophecy that the daughter would bring shame to the mother or something like that. So the queen sends a huntsman with her daugher into the woods where he rapes her before trying to cut out her heart, she escapes, finds these bandits and starts living as an outlaw, trying to get her revenge on the sorcerer that ruined her life). So Geralt being unable to solve the conflict with diplomacy has to choose between the lesser of two evils. Standing by and watching the hostage drama play out (remaining neutral, walking away) or defeating the bandits and saving the innocent villagers. He chooses the second alternative and after a brutal fight there are 7 corpses in the market square and the villagers chase Geralt from town calling him the Butcher of Blaviken (they had not realised he had just saved their lives from disguised bandits). I could go on much longer but I just want to finish off telling of how he accidentally comes to adopt a daughter when she has nowhere else to go, and decides to try to make her life better for her. Turns out she’s ”the chosen one” and bound by prophecy to save/destroy the world, but Geralt tries to protect from all the people who want to use the chosen one for their own gain, instead letting her chose on her own (in the later books she becomes the true protagonist and Geralt becomes a side character). Geralt finds the love of his life, which he didn’t think was possible, makes unlikely friends and starts to realise that life is bigger than he his, that there is more to it than just monsterkilling, drinking and surviving. By the end of the books he is no longer a Witcher, but instead goes on the path of ”righteousness” and tries to make the world a better place, thus truly changing our perspective of the character from a villain protagonist to a hero of sorts. People really should read The Witcher books and not just play the games, they are examples great storytelling and the first two especially tell a postmodern spin on old fairytales (such as Snowwhite and the Butcher of Blaviken) which is really interesting :)
Deadpool was my first exposure to the anti-hero archetype. He drew me in through Cable & Deadpool because he was funny and I got his pop-culture references. I tracked down every one of his prior issues, from old X-Force to his miniseries like The Circle Chase and of course his first solo run series. While I may have been hooked by the comedy, it was the tragedy I found that moved me. Deadpool wants so badly to be a hero, wants so badly to be loved, that he will do anything - or butt into any traditionally righteous team. But at his core - because of the things he’s done - he doesn’t believe that he is good or worthy of love, so he inevitably torches his own happiness or opens himself up to deeply wounding treachery. Hell, we end up ultimately unsure whether he’s even really Wade Wilson or not because his life is such a wreck. In the end, he’s not even really capable of love because all he wants to do is die. And the ultimate tragedy is that he can’t. So he flirts and teases with Death, pretends like he’s torn between living and dying, but when the chips are really down and he tries to throw himself into her arms, he literally can’t. So he’s consigned to continue living, to keep fumbling, trying to do the right things in the wrong ways and alienating everyone who could actually help him. It’s gut-wrenching and I can’t look away and I love it.
Greetings! Thank you for your video. Please, tell me: how, in your opinion, a true villain can be symphatethic? I mean, true villain - one who kills for his own amusement, deceiving and butchering? Especially if he is a main hero of the story? Is his backstory essential to symphatize? Thanks!
This was actually pretty helpful, considering my dark fantasy story surrounds morally grey characters. A character who'll start out some tragic hero ally, will inevitably go down the path of antagonist in the endgame act as an Ant-villain. What he wants isn't evil at all (he wants to save his daughter from some Anti-Christ prophecy that states she'll end the world if he doesn't kill her)- yet he's willing to sacrifice there entire world and everyone/everything on it, to accomplish that end. "There is no person or people I won't kill if it means she'll live!" Are his exact words. He's as despicably callous, self-centered, and delusional as it gets in my story. Yet he's so broken from pain and guilt he cannot break away form his mission to save her. However he's adeptly aware of the true evil he's committing, his self-awareness of the truth of what he's doing isn't loud enough. He's so jaded by a hatred of the world and a self-destructive desperation to save the only person he has left in it. His conscience is dead enough to let it burn instead of sacrifice her to save it.
I enjoy a story where people deal with extreme evil as it should be dealt with: violently and permanently. Stories where horribly depraved, wicked, and unbelievably dangerous people are slapped on the wrist or locked away in a far to comfortable jail they are certain to escape from, are totally unsatisfying and usually irritating. They smack of trying to re-use a villian, rather than good storytelling. DC superheroes, for example, frequently frustrate me. 1. You don't let The Joker live. You kill him until you're sure he's dead. No jail for such a character. No part 2. No "until next time." 2. Lex Luthor's body should have been consumed in the sun. There is zero reason to allow him to live. He won't be reformed and he's as treacherous and evil as they come. I am drawn to characters like Venom, Wolverine, John Wick, The Equalizer, etc. I love and hate Jason Bourne because he's slaying corrupt/bad dudes, but then he doesn't wanna kill the most evil people because his murdered girlfriend wouldn't want him to.
What if I said Conan was the greatest anti-hero of all time ...? The 70s comics presents a dark and menacing setting, and though Conan was bred to defeat it, you can tell Conan cares about people, until they violate what he considers his code. Not to mention he is prepared to instantly kill anyone who stands in his way. He often gives over to his role as a mercenary, or sometimes just works for the highest bidder. But he seems to pick his battles (or be pitted) against foes that would do more harm than good to the world, like giant man-eating beasts, evil magicians, or power-hungry generals.
From the top of my head there are two. A great sympathetic villain is Bat from the Ace Attorney series, a disabled orphaned man that accidentally murdered the circus boss he worked with. During the game it's presented how the circus boss gave him and his younger brother a home and they were deeply indebted to him so there was no reason for him to commit the murder. But he planned to murder the circus boss' daughter since she caused an accident that left him in a wheelchair and left his brother in a comma that he might never recover from. On the other hand a great anti villain is Leon from Leon the Professional. His phrase of "no women, no kids" sticks in the same way when he sees young Winona Ryder in front of his door and he has to take this decision of letting her in and save her life or leave her to die. And even later when he danger finds both of them and he decides to sacrifice for the only person that matters to him in the world.
Thanks for this, David. Took some good notes on it and got some good ideas from it. As for intriguing antiheroes, I find the Arbiter from Halo 2 to be of particular interest. Getting a strong window into both the Humans and Covenant was an interesting shake up for the franchise.
Night Lords by Aaron Dembski-Bowden is my favorite anti-hero story. It's a series of three novels in the Warhammer 40k universe from the traitor marine perspective. You get to hear the reason their particular Legion chose the side it did, see the sacrifices they made, and go through the doubt and struggles with them.
Great example. Talos also came to my mind when thinking about this. And the more I thought about it, the more I realised that there are no "true heroes" in WH40K. And I'm not even sure I subscribe to the idea of "true villains", not even for the Ruinous Powers. The Gods of Chaos are imo rather like feral beasts: they are created in a certain way, unable to change, even if they wanted to try. And all the glorious characters in service of the Empire of Man aren't truly heroic in a classical sense, are they? Which makes the Space Marines even more fascinating. Especially Leman Russ and Magnus: full of virtue, convinced of their own righteousness, and therefore blinded by their respective sense of "right".
George R.R. Martin had a minor character in the Wild Cards series called Billy Ray AKA Carnifex who, over the course of his appearances has been Anti-hero, bad boy, minor hero ect. For some reason that character has stuck in my mind for years.
Umm.. The Corleones would easily fit under anti-villain category, not anti-heroes. They never were. After all, The Godfather movie plots are told in a villain-protagonist point of view. On the contrary, anti-heroes are basically heroes with bad attitudes. They can be very selfish, careless, manipulative, rude, and tend to torture or kill his opponents (mostly, but not all of them do this). Here is a quick comparison: Batman is an anti-hero, while Superman is a traditional hero.
How would you classify Vic Mackey from The Shield. He was one of my favorite characters growing up. He did so many bad things but in his mind he was the only virtuous cop left.
Have you ever read broken empire trilogy by Mark Lawrence? Cause the protagonist is not a good person but he is such a great character. I remember one time where one of his friends was shot by a few guys so the main character goes on to absolutely butcher these guys. It was horrific but amazing at the same time. It's a great read if you haven't read it yet. Also red Queens war by Mark Lawrence is also amazing. The main character is a cowardly womanizer but you can't help but love him. It works so well cause his compainian on his quest is the cliche good guy type and the interactions between the two are so interesting because of it
One of my favorite characters from gaming. "Kain has been greatly praised by both video game critics and players, frequently making it on to top video game villains lists for his portrayal as an antagonist in Soul Reaver and high on many other lists such as #2 on 1UP.com’s Top 5 Video Game characters named Kain/Kane and #2 on Joystick Division’s Top 10 Vampires in Video Game History." Kain from Legacy of Kain is one of those characters who wades between full on villain and anti-villain and questionably anti-hero. hero.wikia.com/wiki/Kain_(Legacy_of_Kain) villains.wikia.com/wiki/Kain_(Legacy_of_Kain) th-cam.com/video/smOaoTDfRzw/w-d-xo.html Spoilers: Kain has been many things. An alleged savior. A king. A warmonger. Cruel. Vain. Arrogant. Prideful. He refused to sacrifice himself to heal the pillars(Which later on goes to become an actually good decision though he had no idea it would be) He "betrayed" his lieutenant Raziel for simply surpassing him. He's attempted to conquer all of Nosgoth. He time travels to get what he wants. All of this would make Kain a vile bastard, yet...if only there wasn't a central theme occurring in the series. Fate. "One can only match move by move, and thus defy the tyrannous stars." All of Kain's actions in the series were preordained. Obtaining power later in the series gave him the ability to see "fate" making him no longer believe in free will and becoming self aware of being a prisoner of fate. (Think of Dr.Manhatten's crying scene. How can a completely emotionless being cry? He had to. He was per-ordained to cry and he knew he was fated to do so. He has the power to see he has no power over fate.) Time travel in the series is used to slightly alter history via Paradoxes. The Time-stream will not allow the introduction of a paradox. If a paradox occurs, time reshuffles and alters around the paradox or worse the "irritant" may be expelled from the timeline. The moment Raziel dared to attack Kain and it was preordained in the timeline, he then found himself being forcefully being drawn to Kain. Kain warning him of being manipulated, Raziel manages to redirect his blade that would have killed Kain. Causing a paradox on the spot. This was only possible since Kain can see into the future and knew Raziel would slay him there. Kain throughout the series causes various paradoxes. With the "aid" of Mobius, Raziel obtains true free will within the Legacy of Kain. SPOILER!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!: In the end SPOILER!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!: sacrificing himself, to aid Kain in his battle against the elder god. "Conscience...? You dare to speak to me of conscience? Only when you have felt the full gravity of choice should you dare question my judgment! Your life's span is a flicker compared to the mass of doubt and regret that I have borne since Mortanius first turned me from the light... To know that the fate of the world hangs dependent on the advisedness of my every deed -- can you even begin to conceive what action you would take, in my position?" ~ Kain, Soul Reaver "Given the choice - whether to rule rule a corrupt and failing empire, or to challenge the fates for another throw, a better throw, against destiny - what was a king to do? But, does one truly have a choice? One can only match, move by move, the machinations of fate, and thus, defy the tyrannous stars." ~ Kain, Defiance
In the series called the "Chylde Cycle" by Gordon R Dickson there is a character named Bleys Ahren. There is a trilogy of books from his perspective, and a trilogy from the perspective of his philosophical opponent Hal Mayne. It's particularly interesting because I read the Hal Mayne books first and consider Bleys an anti-villain, but one of my close friends read the Bleys books first and considers him the anti-hero of the series.
As I’m watching this, I’m thinking of the movie falling down and am wondering if a movie such as this would be acceptable in today’s mindset. Even those typical 80s or 90s cop movie, would probably be equally rejected for the same narrative issues. I like the different types of ideas that you bring up.
A quick rundown using marvel heroes as examples. Hero: Saves people or cares for his moral compass. Usually focused more on the greater good and on others rather than themselves. (Example: Captain America, Thor, Falcon) Anti-Hero: Saves people and cares but breaks his morals to achieve his goals. Anti-Heroes may save an old lady from a car but then shoot up the very car that almost hit her because its filled with gang members. We see them as heroes because they oppose other villains. If the anti hero was shooting a hero however, he'd either be a villain or the story would evolve him to be an anti-villain. (Example: Punisher, Deadpool, Ghost Rider) Villain: Has a negative moral compass that usually revolves around themselves and goals. Villains are pretty standard. You get in their way, they will find a way to move you. Villains are there to foil whatever the hero has, to mess up plans or to cause chaos. In some cases, villains aren't even that bad, they just go against the hero. Like the principal in breakfast club. Hes not really a villain, since hes just doing his job. However, because hes an issue to the kids, and he opposed them, hes a villain. (Examples: Green Goblin, Red Skull, Galactus) Anti-Villain: is probably the most complex. They have a moral compass that they break much like anti-heroes, however they push past the boundaries of what is ok. Their intentions mean well but they require sacrifices and broken rules to achieve them. Most of the time 50% of people can relate to this persons goal. They are not a villain because they are evil. They are a villain because they are opposing another hero. Usually an Anti-villain is known to spare a heroes life or try to talk rather than fight. They are more motivated by their goal than to harm anyone. (Examples: Magneto, Dr. Doom, Thanos) I personally LOVE anti-villains because they are so hard to write and get good. Iron Man technically was an anti-villain in Civil war due to having to attack his own friends and place laws on them for the greater good in his eyes. He means well but he apposes a hero with Captain America.
One of the characters I thought of when watching this video is Keller Dover which Hugh Jackman’s character in Prisoners. I don’t want to spoil the movie but it’s interesting how he shifts from being somewhat of a hero to a villain/ antihero at the end of the film.
Javert! Now, I've only seen two movies and the live musical, but haven't read the book yet. I do however feel that he's kind of a villain that progresses to an anti-villain. In his perspective, he's the hero of course. And in some sense he's not really evil although his sympathies are without exception governed by the law.
I think an analysis of the movie Troy or Gladiator would be interesting. It might be a nice change to take a look at something from the "sword and sandals" genre, and although I really like Gladiator, I thought Troy's general effect was pretty banal despite its heroic source material and stunning design. I'd like to hear your thoughts on it.
My favorite anti-hero is the Shadow. The version from the pulp novels rather than the radio show or the Alec Baldwin movie. He was in WWI. This was supposed to be a war to end all wars and make the world a better place. When that did not happen he basically declared war on criminals. The pulp Shadow kills unless his enemies surrender. It is never explicitly stated, but I think it's implied that he sees the war on crime as the natural outgrowth of the World War - making the world better through violence by getting rid of the bad guys.
I don't feel much sympathy for, but Negan (the Walking Dead) is an interesting antagonist. This morally corrupt individual with some very slight degree of empathy given correct circumstance, but incredibly effective leader if you believe in certain theories of leadership (trait and power/influence). He's almost the stereotypical CEO, with this very demanding and charismatic presentation. But, ready to gut someone who gets in his way. A very ideal foil to the more morally aligned Rick Grimes. Loyalty obtained through coercion versus loyalty earned through trust and mutual experience.
Hannibal Lecter in the TV Series (the ones in the books or the films are slightly different from the series version and from each other). This is a very dark version of a Byronic Hero (definitely darker than anything Byron himself came up with). He is not so much sympathetic but rather interesting: a highly able, extremely high IQ person that is uniquely in touch with even the darkest sides of his soul. Although he is a serial killer, he is very different from other such people in that he does everything utterly deliberately, not forced by a compulsion. He always knows what he is doing and why he is doing it. Another way to describe him would be as a kind of Nitzschean Übermensch - again a very dark version of one.
Deadpool (not so much now) is quite a good antihero: He is a mercenary who heartlessly murders people for money, but sometimes he has lines of decency he will not cross or allow others to cross. He is also visibly extremely capable which makes him impressive, and he is very funny and sympathetic- hard life, disfigured, misguided. Good video, really enjoyed it, very helpful for writing.
Walter White and Tony Soprano, also Pinky Brown, Phillip Marlowe, Jaime Lannister, Tyrion Lannister, The Punisher, and the afore mentioned Elric of Melnibone are some of my favorite antiheroes.
@@Gadget-Walkmen he still killed people bro even when he was not supposed to too and did not care about it at all & still disobeyed some rules … he’s definitely a Anti-Hero and turned into an Villian or Anti-Villian. Now a hero would be Obi-Wan… Mace and Anakin were one of the darker Jedis they were definitely anti-hero’s (more so Anakin)
@@wishsuccess5995 Mace Windu isn’t a antihero at all. He hasn’t done anything to be one. And breaking the rules doesn’t make you a antihero since Batman breaks the rules and law all the time and no one would call him a antihero as he’s not one. But sure you can call anakin an antihero because of the whole sand people massacre so I don’t play you for that one but everything else isn’t right. And simply killing someone doesn’t make you and antihero either because the entire avengers ends up killing people and they don’t really about having this “no kill” rule and their still heroes at the end of the day.
One of my all time favorite anti heroes is the character of Paul Kearsey from Death Wish. Let me be clear that I mean the Charles Bronson version and NOT Bruce Willis. I also like Michael Douglas’s character in Falling Down but not as much because we all deal with the type of problems he has but we don’t start robbing folks.
My personal favorite is Ansurimbor Khellus from the prince of nothing series by R. Scott Bakker and strangely his main counterpoint in the books Drusas Achaimian. The dynamic between these characters is amazing with both of them constantly trying to place what they truly are. Khellus particularly moves between what we know he is and what the characters see him as, somehow Bakker can tell you as a reader what he is yet throughout the story twist your perception of him until your left unsure at every turn. With Achamian you are given a man driven by desperation, exhaustion, fear, and a eventually amazement and hope. He commits unthinkable acts in the name of a greater calling that even he questions, he’s forced to make sacrifices, he struggles with questions and revelations. Throughout all of it you have an amazing dynamic of student and teacher, prophet and skeptic, and in the end your left wondering at the nature of morals, good/evil, religions, collectivism, and humanities darker sides. Seriously if anybody wants epic fantasy on a deeper philosophical, metaphysical, and so deeply thought provoking read the series. Bakkers world is of Tolkien depth and beauty but filled with horrors that would make Martin hesitate plus characters that are able to trigger thoughts and emotions I’ve never had from a book.
Personally I'm a big fan of The Blacklist. The scoundrel is the guy I'm always rooting for. As for the pursuit based on a misunderstanding. That keeps me on the edge of my seat..
As much as i have disliked the current star wars movies, i have to admit Kylo Ren makes for an interesting anti-villain. For the entire series we have seen heroes being tempted by the darkside. Now we have a somewhat sympathetic villain that is tempted by the pull of the light side. Its a neat twist. I just wish Rey was a better developed character so she could be a foil allowing this idea to be explored more. Similarly it would have been nice to see the 2 paragon characters of Snoke and Luke to have stuck around longer to see the proverbial battle for his soul.
A shining example of strong multi layered character writing that comes to my mind is the protagonist and antagonist of Berserk (the manga, to be precise) Guts and Griffith. Some people know the series for superficial reasons like scenes of gore, rape, demonic ritual sacrifices, etc but what makes the series truly great is how well developed Guts is as an anti-hero and Griffith as a sympathetic antagonist turned anti christ super villain.
An anti-hero that I really like is Jared Kincaid from the Dresden Files. He often acts as an ally to Harry Dresden, though he is not what many in the magical community would call a "good guy."
For me the best antihero in Star Wats is Kir Kanos. A former Imperial Royal Guard who goes on a path of retribution against those that sabotaged Palpatine’s cloning chambers. In the end (spoiler) he abandons his chance for redemption and for acceptance in order to assert his implacable vengeance, slaughtering an ally who stands in justice’s way.
Magneto is the best antivillain. He has a noble goal he just wants to protect his species but his methods are too extreme. We could sympathize for him because he was a holocaust survivor and saw his family murdered which made him want to protect his species
Anti-villains are so great because they can so easily be us. We can be the enemy soldier who was drafted to fight in a war against the protagonist's country. We can be the bank employee whose job is to foreclose on the protagonist's house. We can be the second guy in the love triangle opposing the protagonist.
We could be the insurance agent whose job it is to inform a cancer patient that their treatment isn't covered by the policy they have, or in this messed up world, we could end up killing someone's sibling, parent, or child in self defense when we're attacked during a mental health episode.
Sometimes circumstances out of our control that we have no power over can make us someone's most hated villain, when really there may be no right place to put blame for the things that happen.
Anti-Hero: John Wick, Anti-Villain: Magneto
xcom54 Anti-Hero: Tyler Durden Anti-Villain: Manchester Black (probably? Correct me if I’m wrong)
@@ThatRandomEncounterGuy Who is Tyler Durdan?
@@andrewforte3852 Fight Club
Is it Brad Pitt, Ed Norton, or Jared Leto?
Favorite anti hero’s
John and Jane smith ( mr and mrs smith dvd)
John wick ( I will agree with you there )
Lorraine from Atomic blonde ( not quite sure she fits anti hero but her ways in the spy world seems like a lovable anti hero to me at least.)
Inspector Javert from Les Miserables is a great anti-villain. He only does what he does because he's sure God, the law, and the entire hierarchy of justice are on his side. As soon as he can't resolve the world into clean black and white anymore, it destroys him.
For a great anti-hero: Riddick.
David Stewart is my favorite anti hero because all of his thought crime.
Dimitri Swords He's a smooth thought criminal. Bum Bum, Bada-Bupm Bum. Bada-Bupm Bum. Bada-Bupm Bum Bum.
So true. An extremely diabolical mind
Scar from the Full Metal Alchemist anime is a well written anti-villian. Scar survives the Ishvalian war and goes on a holy war against the state alchemists, the "magic" wielding super soldiers who slaughtered his people. He is so blinded by his hatred he attacks alchemists that had nothing to do with the war. Even by his own admission his acts of vengeance to against the religious teachings of his people. This causes Scar to abandon his birth name which his people view as a gift from God. Despite his wrathful nature, Scar is an ethical man who gives his victims time to pray to their Gods before their death. He even shows mercy to alchemists who repent in their final moments by ensuring their final wishes/messages are passed on and giving them a painless death. In one episode an alchemist fused his dog and young daughter together in order to keep his state funding. Upon killing the alchemist and finding the abhorrent fusion, he laments the young girls fate offering her peace through a painless death and reassuring her she will be reunited her with her father soon. Over time he transitions into a full on anti-hero when the big baddies who ordered the whole sale slaughter of his people try do to the same to to their own.
john smith Great character.
Good example
Gotta rewatch soon, thanks to you.
Wonder if the brothers are named after the he mentions at the beginning
So I guess Zuko from Avatar: The Last Airbender would be an anti-villain.
Charity Diary actually his progression is antivillain to antihero to hero
Zuko storyline is better than Aang side tbh. His character is well-developed
@@cypherusuh I agree and most certainly would like to know more.
Yeah
Guts from Berserk is my favourite Anti-Hero, while Griffith is my favourite villain.
Darth Bane is a perfect example of a compelling villain who is also the main protagonist of the story. You want him to succeed against the Jedi and his enemies among the Sith because of how his character is written. He respects only one thing: strength and his creed is survival of the fittest.
Tom Hiddleston does a great job of Loki, who I would identify as an anti-villain. His charm and charisma is so important.
You like to see his comeuppance, but you like it even more when he unexpectedly does good, the tragedy is that you know it won't last.
I will agree that Killmonger is the better villain but I will knife fight anyone who says he's a better character then Lowki.
In the first Thor, Avengers, and Thor 3 you can see he is a good person deep down but Lowki feels he's to far gone until the end of Thor 3.
Killmonger is so consumed by his pain, anger and hate, he has no where to go. He's never going to forgive, and is only going try his genocidal plan again.
The Elric Saga is unmined cinematic gold. As for Elric the character, as a Melnibonean, he isn't human, so his sometimes alien point of view informs his actions. Examine him as part of his own culture, and his actions and motivations become less apparently aberrant, though even his fellow Melniboneans held him apart as an outsider, especially after he earned the epithet "womanslayer." =^[.]^=
Lelouch vi Britannia from Code Geass is my favorite antihero. He had a strong sense of ethics and the power he receives goes against it. He firmly believes that the will of humanity should not be dominated by the strong, that he should take care of those such as his crippled younger sister, more powerful people should not be able to control them. However, the power he receives allows him to force people to obey one command from him. With that power he does several vile things that he regrets, and the execution in the story really sells it. He's also pretty good with rhetoric, for an anime.
(Spoilers for the second season) Since his end game results in him being seen by the world as embodying all the sins, hate, and evil of mankind before he voluntarily sacrifices his own life, is he an antihero? I’ve always viewed him as a highly pragmatic, maverick hero
Why 'was' he isn't dead.
Xander he is
@@Rudi361 No.
Xander have you seen the second season?
One of my favorite anti-hero is Jorg Ancarth from "Prince of Thorns". What makes an anti-hero enjoyable for me is the fact that while their motives and end goals might be virtuous, they aren't limited in their methods and tend to do whatever necessary to achieve victory, as opposed to a regular hero who is often defeated due to their clinginess to remaining 'good'.
Mike Ehrmantraut from Breaking Bad is a great example of an anti-villain in more than one way. First his role as an enforcer for a drug kingpin clearly puts him in the villains camp, secondly he is antagonistic to the main character; therefore he's not only bad (and in a place usually reserved for at best two-dimensional goon type characters) but opposed to the main point of view character. However, this is all flipped on its head as while we don't get internal monologues his actions conform to a strong code of ethics, and he's shown not so much as a good person as the closest to a good and ethical person as you'll find so deep in the drug trade. Even when he works with Walter White he shows disgust at the main character's hypocrisy and ruthlessness, thus providing a clear moral compass to the series which most of the other classic anti-hero stories lack which allows too many audience members license to unreservedly root for main characters who are objectively evil.
Most of Walter White's enemies are worse than himself, but characters like Mike flip things around by providing an antagonist who the protagonist cannot simply destroy while remaining even remotely sympathetic.
Mike is also a phenomenal example of a breakout character, but that's a story for another day.
If you saw death note (tv show not movie), I liked the character of light, who starts out good and turns bad as the series progresses.
Sh*tILike He was never good.
@@TheAutistWhisperer He begins by killing only people who deserve to die and slowly falls into the trap of power.
By the end of it I was glad about what ended up happening I wasn’t rooting for him for a decent amount of the series
Falling Down comes to my mind. Michael Douglas plays a guy who is clearly in the midst of a psychological breakdown and becomes obsessed with seeing his daughter and estranged wife, and meanwhile kills anyone obstructing his path. Then on the flip side it shows how the daily frustration of modern society can possibly exacerbate the internal issues we all have. Like, anyone could be one bad day away from being his character.
BJ Chester - I kinda liked that movie and disliked it. It's a parable for liberals in trying to say this is what conservatives are - in other words if you're a conservative eventually you're going to go nuts and shoot up people in a McDonald's.
I remember watching it and thinking I actually agree with this guy.
Keep in mind I haven't seen it in years so I don't remember a lot accept the feeling I got.
He actually takes his rage out on a lot of people that have it coming, though not all equally or necessarily deserving of his rage. He defends himself from thugs (that happen to be Hispanic), he kills a Nazi scumbag, he scares a Vietnamese store owner who is selling overpriced pop, he frightens some rich pompous white guys. Basically everyone from every conceivable background is on the receiving end of his breakdown, be they racists, minorities, average working schmoes, rich privileged old farts; no one is safe from him, least of all his family who he is ultimately after.
Also, he doesn't shoot up the McDonald's, at least not any person in that scene that I recall. He just snaps when he's told he can't order breakfast anymore and gets even more pissed when he sees the sloppy, pathetic burger they give him. It's funny because of how it points out the false advertising fast food chains take part in every single day. Burger joints are especially guilty of this.
Great movie!
One of the reasons I love the Saga of Dune so much is the progression from hero to anti-hero to villain of the Atreides line.
Guess I need to read those books.
Cause they keep popping up more often.
@@elijahbutterfield4869 first good
Elric was a great example of an anti-hero in fantasy literature. Michael Moorcock is a genius. Some of the works of Piers Anthony -- Zane as Death in On A Pale Horse, might be another.
In cinema, Clint Eastwood's vintage movies like Dirty Harry, the Dollars Trilogy (Man with No Name) and Unforgiven are great anti-heroic characters. Some of my favorites of all time.
Elric is my favorite anti-hero of all time!
I like to write (or should I say, happen to write) anti-heroes because it's one way to help you avoid writing a Marry Sue. Or other times, their indifference is one of their strengths (emotional detachment gives them ability to plan their actions more rationally). Moreover, breaking out of their assoholines (at least sometimes) can provide tension and such (though I admit that one is rather cliche).
However, when I do that, then I usually include a side character to provide a moral angle.
That's interesting, because I often find that the more 'sue-like' characters are supposed to be anti-heroes. The idea that most people have is that being an 'anti-hero' is your ticket to write a cool character who can get away with anything. I personally don't see anything wrong with paragons as long as you show them struggling with some thing, although for them, it's often external as internally they're usually calm or at least more in control. I dunno, I guess its how you write, but I often find anti-heroes to be written just to be edge lords which, in my opinion defeats the purpose.
Hero : do good in purpose for good
Villain : do bad in purpose for bad
Anti hero : do bad in purpose for good
Anti villain : do good in purpose for bad
Some anti-heroes even do good for good. They are just typically ruthless.
Some anti-villains even do bad for bad. They are just typically remorseful.
I like Anti-Hero’s because they are realistic, instead doing something virtuous like letting a dangerous criminal live and go to prison, many people would interoperate someone doing that just to look good in real life, in other words, being “fake”.
Anti Hero’s actually seem to have a grip on reality which ties us in or helps us understand their universe a little bit better
To put simple :
Hero : He will save the day.
Anti Hero : He will save the day but he will open some skulls.
Villain : He will make the day dark and gloomy.
Anti Villain : He will make the day dark and gloomy but he will give some good to the peopole.
John Wick. Bro they killed his dog.
One of my favorite examples is Arthas from Warcraft 3. Arthas starts a Lawful-Good/Lawful-Neutral hero, into a Chaotic-Good anti-hero. He then continues his fall and ends up fully Neutral-Evil when he becomes the Lich King.
Banana Zach Arthas is awsome
Blonde in “The Good, The Bad, and The Ugly”.
I also always liked Bud from “LA Confidential” a lot. He was genuinely a good guy, but would ignore rules and even break the law to uphold his moral code.
I see Bud White as more of just a dark hero since he never really takes action for personal gain. He might break the law but it is actually to enforce objective standards of justice.
Magneto is the ultimate antihero I think. Because depending on your viewpoint, he can so easily be the hero of a story from his POV. Prof X and Magneto at first glance seem like the classic hero v villain but in actual fact their goals are aligned- safety for mutant kind- but their method/ideology to achieve that goal are polar opposites. Depending on what you believe in terms of passivity vs action, non-violent protest vs rebellion either character could be the villainous one (though of course Magneto is coded as the one we probably shouldn't root for). Which is why the X Men/mutantkind issues resonates with so many movements/cultures, because its about an oppressed people looking for a method with which to prove their humanity/worth, and asks us if their heinous acts can ever be justified. It works so well in the movies, especially in First Class when we see Magneto hunting down Nazis, something most people agree with, despite the fact its essentially serial killing.
Raskolnikov from Dostoevsky's Crime and Punishment is probably one of the best 'anti-heroes I've read so far. Dostoevsky does an incredible job of exploring Raskolnikov's psyche. It's hard to not to sympathize with him on some level, even though he's done something terrible. As an interesting villain I also enjoy Tywin Lannister from ASOIAF.
Good distinctions. I may have misappropriated the term anti-hero in the past. I like interesting anti-heroes, but extremely flawed characters beyond the realm of realism seems to be an ubiquitous concept in today’s media. I would consider Han Solo and Lando middle of the road anti-heroes.
Aren't they too charismatic and good natured to fall into that category? I mean when did eighter of them killed innocents because it was "necessary", or any other type of dispicable things.
Dr. Doom from Marvel comics. A close runner up is David Xanatos from Gargoyles. Both exhibit patience, planning, and even ways to succeed even if they fail.
Dr Doom is more of an antivillain though. He constantly tries to conquer lands and doesn't hesitate killing and threatening heroes to achieve his goals, but he actually cares about his very own people, which make him a genuinely kind ruler but an rather evil opponent. I do admit, however, that in some instances he is antiheroic, but let's face it, he is mostly bad. Mostly.
I don't know about Xanatos.
Xanatos is a genius. He airlifted a castle onto a skyscraper. Even if it hadn't broken the gargoyles' curse, it was a solid use of his fortune.
@@OddSifr Xanatos was a villain, he shifted to a more heroic stance over the course of the series for the sake of his family. Which is a damn great arc in and of itself. Dude tries to set up a purely utilitarian marriage, ends up legitimately falling in love with her, swallows his pride for her sake and risks everything to defy a near physical god for their child's sake. It's well executed and took enough time to make it fit.
Thank you mates, I've begun watching the series and I'm loving it, its ost and characters especially
@@OddSifr It's one of the best written and produced works I've had the pleasure of enjoying. Only a few others (Samurai Jack, and Batman Beyond among them.) have made me appreciate the art within animated shows as much.
Favorite anti-hero/villain: Alejandro from Sicario. It’s sort of conflicting though because of what he does toward the end. Maybe this would be considered a transition from anti to full villain
Red Hood would be my favorite: there is a sympathetic quality to what he does and I find it easy to cheer for. He has a similar goal to Batman only with less restriction.
He is,theoretically, an anti villain in the batman under the red hood if I am not mistaken... Right?
@@knightsotl796 Most likely. But later later on he became more anti-heroic.
4:00 when it comes to Vito Corleone's refusal to sell drugs to white kids, I always got the idea it was more a strategic calculation than any kind of 'moral standard'. His logic seemed to be that nobody important would really care if black people got hooked on drugs, but as soon as word got out that white kids were getting hooked on the stuff all hell would break loose, you couldn't possibly bribe the cops or the lawmakers enough to look the other way after that.
I haven’t watched it but I assumed it was so the amount of people on drugs was limited instead of spreading them to more people, but this makes more sense
I thought anti-villains was simply villains with sympathetic traits but still evil.
Your definition sound more like what I think of as a hero antagonist.
Kurtz from Apocalypse Now. Not sure where he falls on the anti-hero spectrum but I've always been very sympathetic with his character
Something modern that really blurs the line between anti-hero and sympathetic villain is Attack on Titan. As the narrative has progressed the characters that were presented as the villains all have revealed tragic and sympathetic backstories and you really come to understand them as people and why they made the decisions they did. That doesn't erase the atrocities they've committed, but when you take their environment into account it sadly seems almost inevitable. To complement the growing sympathy we have for these characters, the main character, who we've followed for the entire series thus far, reveals more and more of his monstrous nature and it becomes harder and harder to support his horrific actions, even though you know exactly why he's doing it all. We're left at a point where no character feels totally in the wrong, but no options feel right either. It rides the line of gray morality in a really impressive way.
Your description of Vito Corleone connected some dots for me. It seems to me that the modern antihero is a character that possesses all the practical virtues required for the situation he is in, but lacks the right morals. He might be clever and brave and disciplined, diligent and hardworking, but his moral compass is slightly (or severely) off, so that he prioritizes revenge, personal gain or even his nation over that which is right.
This makes him overshoot, at best, and taints most victories he gains over his foes.
Hmm a good antihero that comes to mind is Reinhard from LoGH, and a really good sympathetic villain Lady Eboshi from Princess Mononoke.
The most interesting Anti-Heroes and Anti-Villians to me all come from Anime. Code Geass, Death Note, the Gundam franchise, Future Diary, Fate/Zero and Fate/Stay Night, shows like those.
Totally agree with Death Note, it's a masterpiece I've watched it a number of times and recently I rewatched it again and it was still fucking awesoem for me, even though I know what happens which is fucking sad, it's still so sad for me that he lost in the end
Wakfu
The villain is Nox. villains.wikia.com/wiki/Nox
He is fully driven to gathering energy called Wakfu that he will use to turn back time back to when his family was still alive and then save his wife and children.
The problem is wakfu is in all living things and because of his reasoning that when he turns back time all people he killed will be alive and all his wrongs will be undone he is willing to kill any one and any thing including whole continent worth of people.
This is in a animated adventurer show aimed at kids.
The first thought that came to me was Alan Rickman. His villains are always the most interesting characters, but because of his acting ability. On paper, Hans Gruber or the Sheriff of Nottingham have zero redeeming qualities. But as he brought them to life, we as the audience were fascinated. We did not want those characters to win, but we wanted to see more of them on screen because of the way he brought them to life. Let's face it, Kevin Costner's Robin was such a Mary Sue. And even Morgan Freeman was wasted as the paragon in that movie. But the villain! He was the only good thing in the entire movie! Just my thoughts. Enjoying the channel!
Clint Eastwood in High Plains Drifter.
I came across your video because I wanted to see what the difference between anti hero’s and anti villains
Because when I wanted to write a short story and the main character was a sort of Anti hero/anti villain but never knew how to draw that correct.
But I was thankful for your input on this topic. It was very informative and interesting to hear.
So thank you 😊.
Take care everyone and stay safe out there.
My favorite kind of anti-hero is the powerless paragon. Typically this is a highly virtuous every man/man child, who genuinely possess everything one needs to be a great hero, except for the fact that they either have none of the skills or abilities necessary to be a hero, and if they do they have no control over them, though sometimes they can just have terrible luck.
While this character typically either evolves into a more traditional hero with alusions to his past incompetence, or a more traditional anti-hero after having his idealistic nature subverted, and by extension finding a kind of power (This is less common). Though they could always just fail and/or die.
They are just so relatable, someone who want's to do right but has no power to really do anything about it, only eventually they might just become the hero they always wanted to be, or at least die trying.
Btw, as Sarah Kerrigan from Starcraft became such an iconic anti-hero, Blizzard ent. made their next WarCraft 3 main character prince Arthas a 100% carbon copy of Sarah Kerrigan, but in a male form. Her whole arc, from light to darkness. Sadly, without that femme fatale element. But anyways...
in the first one she was a villian or anti-villian until Blizzard retconned it.
I think its interesting in Goodfellas how Henry Hill is only shown to get actively violent when Karen's neighbor assaults her and we get to see him in a heroic light. Otherwise, he's usually for restraint (eg. he repeatedly tries to save Morris from endangering himself with Jimmy; he's the only one who's disturbed by the callousness of Batts's murder and rotting corpse).
There's a good documentary about the real Henry Hill called 'The Real Goodfellas' I think. The real guys were way worse so you can see exactly where and how it got romanticized. eg Henry Hill was kind of just a drunken wild kid in real life. And Uncle Paulie was a monster in real life, eg. he beat a waitress in public with a baseball bat for snitching, but in the film he's made into this kindly avuncular figure.
I love Goodfellas, but the thing is, the more you read about the actual events the more you realise how subjective the movie is. As it's essentially the real Henry Hill's highly romantic (and probably fairly exaggerated) view on things.
The same can be said about Blow (starring Johnny Depp). Here you have a guy that ran, or at least was highly involved in, a very succesful drug operation. And throughout the entire movie he never does anything 'morally' wrong. It's like when something goes wrong and it has serious consequences, it's purely because of bad luck and not because of any ill intentions of George Jung.
The best anti villian that comes to mind is Mel Gibson's character Porter in Payback.
That character actually has 4 cinematic incarnations: Mel Gibson, Lee Marvin, Chow Yun-fat and Jason Statham have all played versions of 'Parker' originating the Richard Stark novel The Hunter. He's a great example of a character that took on a life of its own. He was meant to be a one-off character in a standalone story, dying at the end, but the publisher liked the character so much he got the author to rewrite the ending and contracted him to write more books about him. He ended up starring in 20+ novels over half a century, not to mention multiple cinematic versions with various iconic 'tough guy' actors, across cultures and generations, wanting to portray him.
A few anti heroes I like: Alex and Tom (Frontier(s)), Kiritsugu Emiya (the Fate franchise), Akeno Himejima and Xenovia Quarta (High School DxD), Koko Hekmatyar (Jormungand), Alucard and Integra Hellsing (the Hellsing series), Accelator (the A Certain series), The Lagoon Company (Black Lagoon), Cornelia (W.I.T.C.H), and Zuko (Avatar: The Last Airbender)
A few Villains who I like: Raoul Silva (Skyfall), Hansel and Gretel (Black Lagoon), David Xanatos (Gargoyles), Rampage and Harley Quinn (Justice League), and Cheshire (Young Justice).
Anti-villains: Hanover Fiste from the Heavy Metal franchise, Louise, Charlotte, and Nora (We are the Night), Ahmed and Salim Majhayeff (Ahmed and Salim) and Vesper Lynd (Casino Royale).
Ozymandias is my favorite Antivillain. He killed millions of people and betrayed his closest friends in order to save the world from nuclear annihilation.
My personal favorite antihero/ anti-villain is from a video game called LISA: the painful rpg with the main character Brad Armstrong.
See the kicker about the game is that the villians are actually a hell of a lot better then him, but in the end brad wins and dooms the world.
It's a big and highly sad game where it kicks you repeatedly in the nuts, but god damn i love it.
Debatable... The world was already doomed and the villains plans to save it, no matter how much nobler they sound, still required a kid...
Id say brad starts as an anti hero that undergoes a protagonists journey to villain...
Lelouch Vi Britannia from Code Geass is a popular anti-hero and my favorite.
I find that the protagonist in Law Abiding Citizen is a great example of an anti-hero, or maybe even sympathetic villain. He does evil, cruel, vile things to the men who killed his wife and child, but we accept that because who gives a damn about someone who killed a parent and their child during a robbery for no reason, right?
It's when the protagonist starts killing police, judges, and attempting to bomb a government building that he's crossed a moral event horizon into becoming a truly contemptible villain. The investigators, the DA, the Judge, they were all bound to do what was required of them by rule of law, and his perspective was that those enforcing the law were powerless to dispense justice, and furthermore those creating the laws were incapable of even knowing what justice was, therefore they all needed to die so that he could send a message to the world about what justice really means.
I found myself knowing he would ultimately end up hoist by his own petard, because he resorted to killing people who had no choice in what they did as far as the court case against his wife and child's killers, and even sent a graphic video of the brutal dismemberment of one of the killers to (I believe, though I could be wrong) a detective on the case labelled as if it was a video of his daughter's stage performance from school (Causing the excited young girl to go from excitement to likely traumatized for life as the tape started immediately with the protagonist using a powered saw to dismember the killer).
Anyone would support a man getting vengeance on his partner and child's killers, but most people stopped rooting for him when he got the blood of innocent people on his hands.
3 - Major characters come to mind from western cinema 'Blondie (The Good the Bad & the Ugly), Tony Montana (Scarface) & Snake Plissken (Escape from New York)
~~~~~~~~~~
And one from Japanese cinema 'The Nameless Samurai (Yojimbo, & Sanjuro)
Blondie = Quite simply > Wonderfully A-moral... As he already knows from growing up that good & bad are interchangeable (and intermixable) and will happily exploit others & their opinions of naivate in thinking things like, that of "good & evil being polar opposites" if he can use people to make some quick money and make his life easier, he'll happily come up with the ways to exploit both sides of the equation in the situations he comes across...
Tony Montana = Born in a family trying to run away from Cuba and the possibility of dying back there, eventually realizes that being a hero gets you nothing but steamrolled by less scrupulous types out there, so he decides to go the evil route and out dogs the rest of the mad dogs on the field to become a great success at his chosen path, but not only still has the morale attitude to refuse to cause the death of a young child alongside of the child's father, but actually has the fortitude to kill the assassin he's been partnered with in order to save that child, even though he knows it will likely cause the deaths of many around him aswell as possibly himself in the backlash of his actions...
Snake Plissken = A former special forces soldier who's former career not only causes him to lose his morale stance in life, but causes him to end up being on the opposite side of his own former government (and its manipulative ways), leaving Snake on the only path he still feels that he can take (a path in which he is a gun for hire with some very simple rules "that he is his own form of law as 'judge, jury & executioner' of anyone who wants to try and go head to head with him" snakes loyalties are to no one & no things (not even money) he is loyal only to himself...
~~~~~~~~~~~
The Nameless Samurai = (One of the most incredible characters that director Akira Kurasawa ever got to make movies on) Nameless was born & raised in a war torn era of Japan, where everything was basically dog eat dog (at the very least), after decades of constant nationwide clan warfare had just barely started to come to an end, and leaving not only him, himself, but also countless other bloodied samurai like himself masterless and constantly trying to hire themselves out to anyone who could afford them (even the Yakuza clans), Nameless while loyal to employers who were loyal to his own sworn oath to them, became sheer hell to anyone not worth of his respect, or someone who betrayed him and his oath he gave to them.. He was the ultimate anti-hero early on in samurai cinema, and the inspiration to pretty much half of all of the old Spaghetti western cinema scene back in the 60s & 70's, being that the Spanish director Sergio Leone so loved his storyline that Kurasawa did on him, aswell as other IP's Kuraswa did, that he practically stole the story, only to rewrite it into is own take of the original, in 'A Fistfull of Dollars"...
'Yojimbo', along with 'Seven Samurai' were the two greatest inspirations the Spaghetti westerns ever had, with 'Seven Samurai' showing the Honorable heroic way to fight the hords of evil, & 'Yojimbo' the anti-hero's dishonorable way to destroy those same forces...
*Warning this is a long but hopefully insightful read!* One of my favorite anti-heroes is Geralt of Rivia from the Witcher Book series by Andrzej Sapkowski. When he is first introduced, he seems a lot like an villain protagonist, in that he moves the plot forward but he's definitely not virtuous. He's part of highly skilled guild of Warriors, that take the Gallant knight's role of protecting people by defending them from monsters, but he does it for the monetary reward, so that he can eat, drink and enjoy himself. These monsterhunters are outcasts of society, because they are taken as orphans and then put to great trials, exercise and eventually dangerous mutations. Only 3/10 children survive to adulthood, and those that do are often changed mentally and physically, they appear to lack emotion, taking gold for protecting the innocent and being portrayed as devil's spawn by the godly.
In the very first scene Geralt is picked upon by two drunkards because he is an outcast, they start a fight which ends abruptly when they are mutilated and their blood sprays the surrondings. Geralt is then summoned to the king, but isn't punished, and is instead offered a job to lift the King's daughter's curse. Geralt gets to show off how truly skilled he is as a professional and the King rewards him. You can see why Geralt is not a good guy at all, he murders two people and is rewarded by a biased King.
But as the story progresses we see him deal with dilemmas, such as the one which gave him the title of Butcher of Blaviken. Blaviken was a small town and Geralt had just finished a contract there when 7 bandits showed up. They wanted to kill the sorcerer who had been hiding in the highest tower, for he had cursed their leader. If the sorcerer doesn't surrender they'll raze the town and everyone within. Geralt who had just gone and seen the sorcerer for the contract tried to tell him through a locked door that he had to come out so that they could settle their dispute elsewhere. The sorcerer wouldn't budge. After trying to convince the bandits that they could return later, when the sorcerer eventually had left the tower, they tell their story of how they are indeed morally correct on wanting the sorcerer dead (because the bandit gang leader is pretty much snowwhite and the sorcerer told a prophecy that the daughter would bring shame to the mother or something like that. So the queen sends a huntsman with her daugher into the woods where he rapes her before trying to cut out her heart, she escapes, finds these bandits and starts living as an outlaw, trying to get her revenge on the sorcerer that ruined her life).
So Geralt being unable to solve the conflict with diplomacy has to choose between the lesser of two evils. Standing by and watching the hostage drama play out (remaining neutral, walking away) or defeating the bandits and saving the innocent villagers. He chooses the second alternative and after a brutal fight there are 7 corpses in the market square and the villagers chase Geralt from town calling him the Butcher of Blaviken (they had not realised he had just saved their lives from disguised bandits).
I could go on much longer but I just want to finish off telling of how he accidentally comes to adopt a daughter when she has nowhere else to go, and decides to try to make her life better for her. Turns out she’s ”the chosen one” and bound by prophecy to save/destroy the world, but Geralt tries to protect from all the people who want to use the chosen one for their own gain, instead letting her chose on her own (in the later books she becomes the true protagonist and Geralt becomes a side character). Geralt finds the love of his life, which he didn’t think was possible, makes unlikely friends and starts to realise that life is bigger than he his, that there is more to it than just monsterkilling, drinking and surviving. By the end of the books he is no longer a Witcher, but instead goes on the path of ”righteousness” and tries to make the world a better place, thus truly changing our perspective of the character from a villain protagonist to a hero of sorts.
People really should read The Witcher books and not just play the games, they are examples great storytelling and the first two especially tell a postmodern spin on old fairytales (such as Snowwhite and the Butcher of Blaviken) which is really interesting :)
I know this is a super old comment, but have you read Elric?
@@r4ngerr4ge32 I'm still here :)
No I haven't read it, would you recommend it?
@@henrikh3089 Let’s just say: if you’re into the Witcher, you’re into Elric
@@r4ngerr4ge32 Ok, thanks, I'll check it out. Currently reading Wheel of Time, but almost finished with series. Then I can read it :)
@@henrikh3089 you have good taste, my friend..
God, this is so open that I could give a double digit list of characters...
Avon Bocksdale from the show The Wire is one of my favorite anti-hero
Lelouch Britannia from Code Geasse is another one and Light from Deathnote
Deadpool was my first exposure to the anti-hero archetype. He drew me in through Cable & Deadpool because he was funny and I got his pop-culture references. I tracked down every one of his prior issues, from old X-Force to his miniseries like The Circle Chase and of course his first solo run series.
While I may have been hooked by the comedy, it was the tragedy I found that moved me. Deadpool wants so badly to be a hero, wants so badly to be loved, that he will do anything - or butt into any traditionally righteous team. But at his core - because of the things he’s done - he doesn’t believe that he is good or worthy of love, so he inevitably torches his own happiness or opens himself up to deeply wounding treachery. Hell, we end up ultimately unsure whether he’s even really Wade Wilson or not because his life is such a wreck.
In the end, he’s not even really capable of love because all he wants to do is die. And the ultimate tragedy is that he can’t. So he flirts and teases with Death, pretends like he’s torn between living and dying, but when the chips are really down and he tries to throw himself into her arms, he literally can’t. So he’s consigned to continue living, to keep fumbling, trying to do the right things in the wrong ways and alienating everyone who could actually help him. It’s gut-wrenching and I can’t look away and I love it.
Greetings! Thank you for your video. Please, tell me: how, in your opinion, a true villain can be symphatethic? I mean, true villain - one who kills for his own amusement, deceiving and butchering? Especially if he is a main hero of the story? Is his backstory essential to symphatize? Thanks!
Why everyone hating on Godfather 3, too emotional? I loved it.
This was actually pretty helpful, considering my dark fantasy story surrounds morally grey characters. A character who'll start out some tragic hero ally, will inevitably go down the path of antagonist in the endgame act as an Ant-villain. What he wants isn't evil at all (he wants to save his daughter from some Anti-Christ prophecy that states she'll end the world if he doesn't kill her)- yet he's willing to sacrifice there entire world and everyone/everything on it, to accomplish that end. "There is no person or people I won't kill if it means she'll live!" Are his exact words. He's as despicably callous, self-centered, and delusional as it gets in my story. Yet he's so broken from pain and guilt he cannot break away form his mission to save her. However he's adeptly aware of the true evil he's committing, his self-awareness of the truth of what he's doing isn't loud enough. He's so jaded by a hatred of the world and a self-destructive desperation to save the only person he has left in it. His conscience is dead enough to let it burn instead of sacrifice her to save it.
Well that was sad as hell
Good writing material tho
I enjoy a story where people deal with extreme evil as it should be dealt with: violently and permanently. Stories where horribly depraved, wicked, and unbelievably dangerous people are slapped on the wrist or locked away in a far to comfortable jail they are certain to escape from, are totally unsatisfying and usually irritating. They smack of trying to re-use a villian, rather than good storytelling.
DC superheroes, for example, frequently frustrate me.
1. You don't let The Joker live. You kill him until you're sure he's dead. No jail for such a character. No part 2. No "until next time."
2. Lex Luthor's body should have been consumed in the sun. There is zero reason to allow him to live. He won't be reformed and he's as treacherous and evil as they come.
I am drawn to characters like Venom, Wolverine, John Wick, The Equalizer, etc. I love and hate Jason Bourne because he's slaying corrupt/bad dudes, but then he doesn't wanna kill the most evil people because his murdered girlfriend wouldn't want him to.
What if I said Conan was the greatest anti-hero of all time ...? The 70s comics presents a dark and menacing setting, and though Conan was bred to defeat it, you can tell Conan cares about people, until they violate what he considers his code. Not to mention he is prepared to instantly kill anyone who stands in his way. He often gives over to his role as a mercenary, or sometimes just works for the highest bidder. But he seems to pick his battles (or be pitted) against foes that would do more harm than good to the world, like giant man-eating beasts, evil magicians, or power-hungry generals.
From the top of my head there are two.
A great sympathetic villain is Bat from the Ace Attorney series, a disabled orphaned man that accidentally murdered the circus boss he worked with. During the game it's presented how the circus boss gave him and his younger brother a home and they were deeply indebted to him so there was no reason for him to commit the murder. But he planned to murder the circus boss' daughter since she caused an accident that left him in a wheelchair and left his brother in a comma that he might never recover from.
On the other hand a great anti villain is Leon from Leon the Professional. His phrase of "no women, no kids" sticks in the same way when he sees young Winona Ryder in front of his door and he has to take this decision of letting her in and save her life or leave her to die. And even later when he danger finds both of them and he decides to sacrifice for the only person that matters to him in the world.
Thanks for this, David. Took some good notes on it and got some good ideas from it. As for intriguing antiheroes, I find the Arbiter from Halo 2 to be of particular interest. Getting a strong window into both the Humans and Covenant was an interesting shake up for the franchise.
Halo 2 is one of my favourite games.
Night Lords by Aaron Dembski-Bowden is my favorite anti-hero story. It's a series of three novels in the Warhammer 40k universe from the traitor marine perspective. You get to hear the reason their particular Legion chose the side it did, see the sacrifices they made, and go through the doubt and struggles with them.
Great example. Talos also came to my mind when thinking about this. And the more I thought about it, the more I realised that there are no "true heroes" in WH40K. And I'm not even sure I subscribe to the idea of "true villains", not even for the Ruinous Powers. The Gods of Chaos are imo rather like feral beasts: they are created in a certain way, unable to change, even if they wanted to try. And all the glorious characters in service of the Empire of Man aren't truly heroic in a classical sense, are they? Which makes the Space Marines even more fascinating. Especially Leman Russ and Magnus: full of virtue, convinced of their own righteousness, and therefore blinded by their respective sense of "right".
The Punisher is a good anti-hero.
One of my favorites :)
George R.R. Martin had a minor character in the Wild Cards series called Billy Ray AKA Carnifex who, over the course of his appearances has been Anti-hero, bad boy, minor hero ect. For some reason that character has stuck in my mind for years.
Umm.. The Corleones would easily fit under anti-villain category, not anti-heroes. They never were. After all, The Godfather movie plots are told in a villain-protagonist point of view. On the contrary, anti-heroes are basically heroes with bad attitudes. They can be very selfish, careless, manipulative, rude, and tend to torture or kill his opponents (mostly, but not all of them do this). Here is a quick comparison: Batman is an anti-hero, while Superman is a traditional hero.
Thank you. I'm a dm/gm and your videos have helped me craft more believable characters.
Elric of Melniboné! It's been years since the last time I read any of the novels. I need to find where I put them now :)
How would you classify Vic Mackey from The Shield. He was one of my favorite characters growing up. He did so many bad things but in his mind he was the only virtuous cop left.
Have you ever read broken empire trilogy by Mark Lawrence? Cause the protagonist is not a good person but he is such a great character. I remember one time where one of his friends was shot by a few guys so the main character goes on to absolutely butcher these guys. It was horrific but amazing at the same time. It's a great read if you haven't read it yet.
Also red Queens war by Mark Lawrence is also amazing. The main character is a cowardly womanizer but you can't help but love him. It works so well cause his compainian on his quest is the cliche good guy type and the interactions between the two are so interesting because of it
One of my favorite characters from gaming. "Kain has been greatly praised by both video game critics and players, frequently making it on to top video game villains lists for his portrayal as an antagonist in Soul Reaver and high on many other lists such as #2 on 1UP.com’s Top 5 Video Game characters named Kain/Kane and #2 on Joystick Division’s Top 10 Vampires in Video Game History."
Kain from Legacy of Kain is one of those characters who wades between full on villain and anti-villain and questionably anti-hero.
hero.wikia.com/wiki/Kain_(Legacy_of_Kain)
villains.wikia.com/wiki/Kain_(Legacy_of_Kain)
th-cam.com/video/smOaoTDfRzw/w-d-xo.html
Spoilers: Kain has been many things. An alleged savior. A king. A warmonger. Cruel. Vain. Arrogant. Prideful. He refused to sacrifice himself to heal the pillars(Which later on goes to become an actually good decision though he had no idea it would be) He "betrayed" his lieutenant Raziel for simply surpassing him. He's attempted to conquer all of Nosgoth. He time travels to get what he wants. All of this would make Kain a vile bastard, yet...if only there wasn't a central theme occurring in the series. Fate.
"One can only match move by move, and thus defy the tyrannous stars." All of Kain's actions in the series were preordained. Obtaining power later in the series gave him the ability to see "fate" making him no longer believe in free will and becoming self aware of being a prisoner of fate. (Think of Dr.Manhatten's crying scene. How can a completely emotionless being cry? He had to. He was per-ordained to cry and he knew he was fated to do so. He has the power to see he has no power over fate.)
Time travel in the series is used to slightly alter history via Paradoxes. The Time-stream will not allow the introduction of a paradox. If a paradox occurs, time reshuffles and alters around the paradox or worse the "irritant" may be expelled from the timeline. The moment Raziel dared to attack Kain and it was preordained in the timeline, he then found himself being forcefully being drawn to Kain. Kain warning him of being manipulated, Raziel manages to redirect his blade that would have killed Kain. Causing a paradox on the spot. This was only possible since Kain can see into the future and knew Raziel would slay him there. Kain throughout the series causes various paradoxes. With the "aid" of Mobius, Raziel obtains true free will within the Legacy of Kain. SPOILER!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!: In the end SPOILER!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!: sacrificing himself, to aid Kain in his battle against the elder god.
"Conscience...? You dare to speak to me of conscience? Only when you have felt the full gravity of choice should you dare question my judgment! Your life's span is a flicker compared to the mass of doubt and regret that I have borne since Mortanius first turned me from the light... To know that the fate of the world hangs dependent on the advisedness of my every deed -- can you even begin to conceive what action you would take, in my position?"
~ Kain, Soul Reaver
"Given the choice - whether to rule rule a corrupt and failing empire, or to challenge the fates for another throw, a better throw, against destiny - what was a king to do? But, does one truly have a choice? One can only match, move by move, the machinations of fate, and thus, defy the tyrannous stars."
~ Kain, Defiance
In the series called the "Chylde Cycle" by Gordon R Dickson there is a character named Bleys Ahren. There is a trilogy of books from his perspective, and a trilogy from the perspective of his philosophical opponent Hal Mayne. It's particularly interesting because I read the Hal Mayne books first and consider Bleys an anti-villain, but one of my close friends read the Bleys books first and considers him the anti-hero of the series.
As I’m watching this, I’m thinking of the movie falling down and am wondering if a movie such as this would be acceptable in today’s mindset. Even those typical 80s or 90s cop movie, would probably be equally rejected for the same narrative issues. I like the different types of ideas that you bring up.
That movie discusses a lot of issues that in today’s feelings based PC culture would be automatically shouted down as racist and misogynystic.
A quick rundown using marvel heroes as examples.
Hero: Saves people or cares for his moral compass. Usually focused more on the greater good and on others rather than themselves.
(Example: Captain America, Thor, Falcon)
Anti-Hero: Saves people and cares but breaks his morals to achieve his goals. Anti-Heroes may save an old lady from a car but then shoot up the very car that almost hit her because its filled with gang members. We see them as heroes because they oppose other villains. If the anti hero was shooting a hero however, he'd either be a villain or the story would evolve him to be an anti-villain.
(Example: Punisher, Deadpool, Ghost Rider)
Villain: Has a negative moral compass that usually revolves around themselves and goals. Villains are pretty standard. You get in their way, they will find a way to move you. Villains are there to foil whatever the hero has, to mess up plans or to cause chaos. In some cases, villains aren't even that bad, they just go against the hero. Like the principal in breakfast club. Hes not really a villain, since hes just doing his job. However, because hes an issue to the kids, and he opposed them, hes a villain.
(Examples: Green Goblin, Red Skull, Galactus)
Anti-Villain: is probably the most complex. They have a moral compass that they break much like anti-heroes, however they push past the boundaries of what is ok. Their intentions mean well but they require sacrifices and broken rules to achieve them. Most of the time 50% of people can relate to this persons goal. They are not a villain because they are evil. They are a villain because they are opposing another hero. Usually an Anti-villain is known to spare a heroes life or try to talk rather than fight. They are more motivated by their goal than to harm anyone.
(Examples: Magneto, Dr. Doom, Thanos)
I personally LOVE anti-villains because they are so hard to write and get good.
Iron Man technically was an anti-villain in Civil war due to having to attack his own friends and place laws on them for the greater good in his eyes. He means well but he apposes a hero with Captain America.
One of the characters I thought of when watching this video is Keller Dover which Hugh Jackman’s character in Prisoners. I don’t want to spoil the movie but it’s interesting how he shifts from being somewhat of a hero to a villain/ antihero at the end of the film.
Javert!
Now, I've only seen two movies and the live musical, but haven't read the book yet.
I do however feel that he's kind of a villain that progresses to an anti-villain.
In his perspective, he's the hero of course. And in some sense he's not really evil although his sympathies are without exception governed by the law.
I think an analysis of the movie Troy or Gladiator would be interesting. It might be a nice change to take a look at something from the "sword and sandals" genre, and although I really like Gladiator, I thought Troy's general effect was pretty banal despite its heroic source material and stunning design. I'd like to hear your thoughts on it.
My favorite anti-hero is the Shadow. The version from the pulp novels rather than the radio show or the Alec Baldwin movie. He was in WWI. This was supposed to be a war to end all wars and make the world a better place. When that did not happen he basically declared war on criminals. The pulp Shadow kills unless his enemies surrender. It is never explicitly stated, but I think it's implied that he sees the war on crime as the natural outgrowth of the World War - making the world better through violence by getting rid of the bad guys.
I don't feel much sympathy for, but Negan (the Walking Dead) is an interesting antagonist. This morally corrupt individual with some very slight degree of empathy given correct circumstance, but incredibly effective leader if you believe in certain theories of leadership (trait and power/influence). He's almost the stereotypical CEO, with this very demanding and charismatic presentation. But, ready to gut someone who gets in his way. A very ideal foil to the more morally aligned Rick Grimes. Loyalty obtained through coercion versus loyalty earned through trust and mutual experience.
Hannibal Lecter in the TV Series (the ones in the books or the films are slightly different from the series version and from each other). This is a very dark version of a Byronic Hero (definitely darker than anything Byron himself came up with). He is not so much sympathetic but rather interesting: a highly able, extremely high IQ person that is uniquely in touch with even the darkest sides of his soul. Although he is a serial killer, he is very different from other such people in that he does everything utterly deliberately, not forced by a compulsion. He always knows what he is doing and why he is doing it. Another way to describe him would be as a kind of Nitzschean Übermensch - again a very dark version of one.
Deadpool (not so much now) is quite a good antihero: He is a mercenary who heartlessly murders people for money, but sometimes he has lines of decency he will not cross or allow others to cross. He is also visibly extremely capable which makes him impressive, and he is very funny and sympathetic- hard life, disfigured, misguided.
Good video, really enjoyed it, very helpful for writing.
Hey David I was wondering if you had any videos on how to keep dialogue from sounding cliche or dry
Not yet.
Walter White and Tony Soprano, also Pinky Brown, Phillip Marlowe, Jaime Lannister, Tyrion Lannister, The Punisher, and the afore mentioned Elric of Melnibone are some of my favorite antiheroes.
Regarding The Godfather, it's not Vito Corleone who says that drugs should only be sold to non-whites; one of the other bosses says that.
My favourite anti-heroes are Anakin Skywalker, the unnamed prince from Prince of Persia PS2, and Sly Cooper.
I wouldn’t call anakin an antihero at all. He’s rebellious at times and he’s flawed but he still follows the rules for the most part.
Anakin became the anti-villain.
@@Gadget-Walkmen he still killed people bro even when he was not supposed to too and did not care about it at all & still disobeyed some rules … he’s definitely a Anti-Hero and turned into an Villian or Anti-Villian. Now a hero would be Obi-Wan… Mace and Anakin were one of the darker Jedis they were definitely anti-hero’s (more so Anakin)
@@wishsuccess5995 Mace Windu isn’t a antihero at all. He hasn’t done anything to be one.
And breaking the rules doesn’t make you a antihero since Batman breaks the rules and law all the time and no one would call him a antihero as he’s not one.
But sure you can call anakin an antihero because of the whole sand people massacre so I don’t play you for that one but everything else isn’t right.
And simply killing someone doesn’t make you and antihero either because the entire avengers ends up killing people and they don’t really about having this “no kill” rule and their still heroes at the end of the day.
@@Gadget-Walkmen I’m not going to read all of that but hope you have a nice day 😂
One of my all time favorite anti heroes is the character of Paul Kearsey from Death Wish. Let me be clear that I mean the Charles Bronson version and NOT Bruce Willis. I also like Michael Douglas’s character in Falling Down but not as much because we all deal with the type of problems he has but we don’t start robbing folks.
Tom Hanks character in "Catch me If you can" is a anti-villain.
My personal favorite is Ansurimbor Khellus from the prince of nothing series by R. Scott Bakker and strangely his main counterpoint in the books Drusas Achaimian. The dynamic between these characters is amazing with both of them constantly trying to place what they truly are. Khellus particularly moves between what we know he is and what the characters see him as, somehow Bakker can tell you as a reader what he is yet throughout the story twist your perception of him until your left unsure at every turn. With Achamian you are given a man driven by desperation, exhaustion, fear, and a eventually amazement and hope. He commits unthinkable acts in the name of a greater calling that even he questions, he’s forced to make sacrifices, he struggles with questions and revelations. Throughout all of it you have an amazing dynamic of student and teacher, prophet and skeptic, and in the end your left wondering at the nature of morals, good/evil, religions, collectivism, and humanities darker sides.
Seriously if anybody wants epic fantasy on a deeper philosophical, metaphysical, and so deeply thought provoking read the series. Bakkers world is of Tolkien depth and beauty but filled with horrors that would make Martin hesitate plus characters that are able to trigger thoughts and emotions I’ve never had from a book.
God on re read of that I realize how bad my habit of rambling when I write is
Personally I'm a big fan of The Blacklist. The scoundrel is the guy I'm always rooting for. As for the pursuit based on a misunderstanding. That keeps me on the edge of my seat..
The Punisher
Ghost Rider :)
Moon Knight
Little Bill by Gene Hackman in Unforgiven. "I don't deserve this-- to die like this. I was building a house."
I've just discovered your channel, and I LOVE it! You're super helpful. You've got a new subscriber 😁
As much as i have disliked the current star wars movies, i have to admit Kylo Ren makes for an interesting anti-villain. For the entire series we have seen heroes being tempted by the darkside. Now we have a somewhat sympathetic villain that is tempted by the pull of the light side. Its a neat twist. I just wish Rey was a better developed character so she could be a foil allowing this idea to be explored more. Similarly it would have been nice to see the 2 paragon characters of Snoke and Luke to have stuck around longer to see the proverbial battle for his soul.
A shining example of strong multi layered character writing that comes to my mind is the protagonist and antagonist of Berserk (the manga, to be precise) Guts and Griffith. Some people know the series for superficial reasons like scenes of gore, rape, demonic ritual sacrifices, etc but what makes the series truly great is how well developed Guts is as an anti-hero and Griffith as a sympathetic antagonist turned anti christ super villain.
Snape, Snape, Severus Snape
An anti-hero that I really like is Jared Kincaid from the Dresden Files. He often acts as an ally to Harry Dresden, though he is not what many in the magical community would call a "good guy."
I was waiting for the breakdown of Villains and Anti-villains....
For me the best antihero in Star Wats is Kir Kanos. A former Imperial Royal Guard who goes on a path of retribution against those that sabotaged Palpatine’s cloning chambers. In the end (spoiler) he abandons his chance for redemption and for acceptance in order to assert his implacable vengeance, slaughtering an ally who stands in justice’s way.
Magneto is the best antivillain. He has a noble goal he just wants to protect his species but his methods are too extreme. We could sympathize for him because he was a holocaust survivor and saw his family murdered which made him want to protect his species