Very well done video. Thanks for the effort. I am often shocked just a little bit at how often we CFIs have to remind pilots that some "homework" must be done before taking off in IMC or on a dark night - especially at airports with which we are not familiar. I guess my favorite utterence is: "Nooo! You don't simply jump in and go."
Just completed my first solo departure into IMC. TOTALLY terrifying. I now see I was so focused on the procedure outbound that I gave zero attention to the idea of having to return. I didn’t even look at the plate or save it to ForeFlight map. That’s after an hour of briefing on the ground with two CFI ‘s
Consider a takeoff alternate if you depart in IMC from airports without an approach. Load that approach into your navigator prior to departure. If you need to return in an emergency you have it available right away.
Also a reminder that radar vectors can have minimum climb gradients as well! Look out for Diverse Vector Areas, and if you can't comply, don't accept radar vectors in your initial clearance!
Thanks Dan!!! I’m a flat lander, but I’ve recently started finding challenging ODPs in MSFS just to keep my head in the game in case I need to fly one some day
A few that come to mind: KBDG rwy 35, KDRO rwy 3, KGUP rwy 6. Those all depart directly toward mountains and the climb gradients should be achievable in the stock MSFS 172 (assuming you lean properly before takeoff). Once you've figured those out try the ODP for KTUS 11R, which includes several turns and a hold. Remember to climb on the runway heading to 400 ft AGL before starting any turns.
Flat area, but took off in a light twin with less than 1/4 and 200VV. The runway was gone seconds after liftoff. I only went because the nearby airport was VFR and I had two engines with performance to get to the OROCA + some on one. I knew what to expect, but it was still quite surprising. We don't teach departures enough.
Episode 32 of the Opposing Bases podcast talks in length about ODPs. It's a good listen. Many a pilot has lost their lives and taken passengers with them by not taking ODPs into account on departure-especially in unfamiliar airports. Do your due diligence and never forget about density altitude in mountainous regions.
The biggest revelation here for me was that climb in visual conditions is different than a VCOA. Never heard of the former. Here we have both. The climb in visual conditions requires meeting a stated ceiling and visibility and you can fly VMC away from the airport if you meet them (scud running though?). With the VCOA you are staying above the airport and climbing IN VMC until the stated altitude. If you get into the clouds (or 500' below) while climbing to that altitude you'll know it but you won't have to worry about obstacles, though you're not legal to go in to IMC.
I'll add a layer to that. Obviously if the airport is below minimums it's not a good idea to depart, in case of a problem. But if you have a problem, do you really want to shoot an approach at minimums? My additional layer would be to adjust those minimums by a comfortable "x" multiplier.
One thing that gets missed all too often is a runway inspection. If you are departing early morning from a non towered airport in reduced visibility, a back track of the intended departure runway will mitigate the risk of meeting a herd of deer just as you crest the runway crown at 80 knots. Also, if you can’t meet the required minimum climb gradient for the intended runway due to an obstacle, there is nothing wrong with choosing another runway without an obstacle. It may even be the reciprocal with an allowable tailwind.
The video is not quite consistent with the TRI3 ODP plate. The plate says to intercept and stay on the radials, climb to the specified altitudes, before "proceeding on course". The video is stating it backward.
Agreed. I just looked at the plate and you’re right, Dan has it backwards. It’s intercept the radial, climb to the specified altitude, and then proceed on course. Most aircraft will probably make the altitude way before the Glade Spring VOR and will be able to turn accordingly.
Should be 35ft above departure end of the runway, unless the runway is above a certain length (I'm blanking on it right now), then it begins 0ft above departure end of the runway.
Unless you’re flying a TBM or Meridian, other single engine turbo prop, and have aircraft specific training, single engine IFR flying is, to me, not worth the risk. To have pilots that barely fly enough to maintain VFR currency flying in low IFR weather is crazy. Just because it’s legal, doesn’t mean it’s safe. Don’t become a story, leave the low IFR flying to the pro’s.
Why would you even fly IFR in a single engine airplane most of these are 30 to 50 years old pieces of crap, I should know I'm a mechanic and I have to work on them their total junk I certainly would want to go IFR That's for sure. And there is absolutely no FAA oversight on the maintenance of these aircraft.
@@j_taylor I wouldn't sign something off that I didn't think was airworthy. But you have to remember, it might be airworthy today but not in 2 weeks. And parts and labor are so expensive most owners don't have a clue with regards to the condition of their aircraft. My experience comes from working at a flight school in Texas and also doing part-time maintenance for a flying club, where everybody is trying to save a buck. Have you seen that show rebuild rescue where they're trying to get Cessna 401 back in the air. Two of the mechanics are supposed to be supervised by licensed mechanic but guess what, more than half the time these two guys aren't being supervised by anybody. They don't even know how to drill out a rivet or tighten a nut/bolt combination. And I bet they're not the only yahoos out there not doing it right. For God's sake they painted a firewall on a Piper 235, yeah that's right they put flammable material on the firewall of course they don't have any approved data to do that but I guarantee you the FAA does not care about general aviation maintenance.
Very well done video. Thanks for the effort. I am often shocked just a little bit at how often we CFIs have to remind pilots that some "homework" must be done before taking off in IMC or on a dark night - especially at airports with which we are not familiar. I guess my favorite utterence is: "Nooo! You don't simply jump in and go."
Just completed my first solo departure into IMC. TOTALLY terrifying. I now see I was so focused on the procedure outbound that I gave zero attention to the idea of having to return. I didn’t even look at the plate or save it to ForeFlight map. That’s after an hour of briefing on the ground with two CFI ‘s
Yeah, that never goes away, but as a 20000 hour airline. Captain we just don't talk about it.
Shouldn’t one of the CFIs have reminded you to consider a possible return during the briefing.
@@mebeingU2 I think that was the point he was making.
Consider a takeoff alternate if you depart in IMC from airports without an approach. Load that approach into your navigator prior to departure. If you need to return in an emergency you have it available right away.
Excellent tip! If I’m taking off on a runway where its reciprocal has an ILS, I tune that in to the NAV, as well
Also a reminder that radar vectors can have minimum climb gradients as well! Look out for Diverse Vector Areas, and if you can't comply, don't accept radar vectors in your initial clearance!
Thanks Dan!!! I’m a flat lander, but I’ve recently started finding challenging ODPs in MSFS just to keep my head in the game in case I need to fly one some day
A few that come to mind: KBDG rwy 35, KDRO rwy 3, KGUP rwy 6. Those all depart directly toward mountains and the climb gradients should be achievable in the stock MSFS 172 (assuming you lean properly before takeoff). Once you've figured those out try the ODP for KTUS 11R, which includes several turns and a hold.
Remember to climb on the runway heading to 400 ft AGL before starting any turns.
@@jeffhiner Awesome! Thanks!
Flat area, but took off in a light twin with less than 1/4 and 200VV. The runway was gone seconds after liftoff. I only went because the nearby airport was VFR and I had two engines with performance to get to the OROCA + some on one. I knew what to expect, but it was still quite surprising. We don't teach departures enough.
Seems like the best practice is that if conditions are IFR, don't fly until the weather clears. What happens if engine quits?
Thanks for making this kind of videos. It means a lot to the aviation community may God almighty continue to bless you all.
Great video, explanation and reminders. Thanks!
Episode 32 of the Opposing Bases podcast talks in length about ODPs. It's a good listen. Many a pilot has lost their lives and taken passengers with them by not taking ODPs into account on departure-especially in unfamiliar airports. Do your due diligence and never forget about density altitude in mountainous regions.
The biggest revelation here for me was that climb in visual conditions is different than a VCOA. Never heard of the former. Here we have both. The climb in visual conditions requires meeting a stated ceiling and visibility and you can fly VMC away from the airport if you meet them (scud running though?). With the VCOA you are staying above the airport and climbing IN VMC until the stated altitude. If you get into the clouds (or 500' below) while climbing to that altitude you'll know it but you won't have to worry about obstacles, though you're not legal to go in to IMC.
If you're unable to turn right back around and land, don't take off.
I'll add a layer to that. Obviously if the airport is below minimums it's not a good idea to depart, in case of a problem. But if you have a problem, do you really want to shoot an approach at minimums? My additional layer would be to adjust those minimums by a comfortable "x" multiplier.
One thing that gets missed all too often is a runway inspection. If you are departing early morning from a non towered airport in reduced visibility, a back track of the intended departure runway will mitigate the risk of meeting a herd of deer just as you crest the runway crown at 80 knots. Also, if you can’t meet the required minimum climb gradient for the intended runway due to an obstacle, there is nothing wrong with choosing another runway without an obstacle. It may even be the reciprocal with an allowable tailwind.
Like the single video format. Sorry it took 3 weeks to watch it. My bad.
The video is not quite consistent with the TRI3 ODP plate. The plate says to intercept and stay on the radials, climb to the specified altitudes, before "proceeding on course". The video is stating it backward.
Agreed. I just looked at the plate and you’re right, Dan has it backwards. It’s intercept the radial, climb to the specified altitude, and then proceed on course. Most aircraft will probably make the altitude way before the Glade Spring VOR and will be able to turn accordingly.
Thank you for video.
Does the obstacle clearance line start from the center (as depicted) or the departure end of the runway?
Should be 35ft above departure end of the runway, unless the runway is above a certain length (I'm blanking on it right now), then it begins 0ft above departure end of the runway.
👍
I thought I knew that voice :D
I don't know, you depart like that - you're basically hoping you won't have an engine out soon after takeoff. If you get it - you're dead.
Flightinsight guy?
Unless you’re flying a TBM or Meridian, other single engine turbo prop, and have aircraft specific training, single engine IFR flying is, to me, not worth the risk. To have pilots that barely fly enough to maintain VFR currency flying in low IFR weather is crazy.
Just because it’s legal, doesn’t mean it’s safe.
Don’t become a story, leave the low IFR flying to the pro’s.
As a delivery driver with 10,000 hours of driving I want everyone to know driving in fog sucks balls.
Apropros
Why would you even fly IFR in a single engine airplane most of these are 30 to 50 years old pieces of crap, I should know I'm a mechanic and I have to work on them their total junk I certainly would want to go IFR That's for sure. And there is absolutely no FAA oversight on the maintenance of these aircraft.
Just to be clear. You're an AME and you sign off on aircraft that you think are total junk?
@@j_taylor I wouldn't sign something off that I didn't think was airworthy. But you have to remember, it might be airworthy today but not in 2 weeks. And parts and labor are so expensive most owners don't have a clue with regards to the condition of their aircraft.
My experience comes from working at a flight school in Texas and also doing part-time maintenance for a flying club, where everybody is trying to save a buck.
Have you seen that show rebuild rescue where they're trying to get Cessna 401 back in the air. Two of the mechanics are supposed to be supervised by licensed mechanic but guess what, more than half the time these two guys aren't being supervised by anybody. They don't even know how to drill out a rivet or tighten a nut/bolt combination. And I bet they're not the only yahoos out there not doing it right.
For God's sake they painted a firewall on a Piper 235, yeah that's right they put flammable material on the firewall of course they don't have any approved data to do that but I guarantee you the FAA does not care about general aviation maintenance.