0:00 Introduction 5:54 Interview begins: What is a Delusion? 17:15 Evolution & Perception 27:00 Illusions and their uses 46:23 The William James & William Clifford Debate on Truths (and Feel-Good Delusions) 55:57 Atheism, Life After Death, & Aliens 1:01:03 Fear of Death (Fear Management Theory) 1:02:51 Free Will & Determinism (is Free Will a useful delusion? / Crime & Punishment) 1:23:06 Rapping up the interview / The Future of Delusions
Belief in God can be inspiring and comforting and can motivate people to maintain the hard work needed to survive and thrive. However that belief can cripple some people with guilt and self-hatred or hatred of others. Many people succeed in quietly selecting helpful aspects of their religion but ignoring the extreme aspects, thus creating a better version of the religion than the founder may have envisioned.
@@jeffersonianideal I think all good deeds and moral actions can be achieved whether you believe in God or mysticism or not. Some people find their religious beliefs very motivating but other people can work to make the world a better place without any religious belief at all.
56:12 Let’s say there is a God. Is it easier to substantiate a God that is perfectly omniscient and omnipotent, or a minimalist God that has no such power?
I wonder if part of the problem in asking whether certain 'delusions' are rational is that 'rational' most often means doing in a way that is calibrated to and achieves the goal. And the problem there is twofold: (a) one can't know AT THE TIME ONE IS TRYING TO BE RATIONAL whether the attempt will actually get to the goal (you can only judge that in retrospect; and (b) there are probably many different sets of decisions and actions that could get one to a particular goal, and if rational is defined instrumentally, one can't say that one of these is any more rational than the other if all of them work. (There is also a (c) which is that whether one's attempts get to the goal will often hinge at least a bit on luck and circumstance rather than rationality.)
"No persisting behavior exists without specific benefit"-- David Sloan Wilson, Harvard Evolutionary Biologist 'Telling oneself that a lion won't hurt you' (Dawkins) or that Kim Jong-un won't murder you for criticizing him is not even close to the "infinite capacity for self-deception". But either would forever end your life & reproductive lineage. Human's self-deception ENDS when it no longer has specific benefit. Richard Dawkins believes "in my lifetime we'll know the origin of life". How close to infinite capacity is that? Pretty fn close: th-cam.com/video/xIHMnD2FDeY/w-d-xo.html ACTUAL BIOLOGISTS, Craig Venter, Nobel laureates in biology Leland Hartwell & Sydney Altman ALL say to Dawkins' face: "it's IMPOSSIBLE humans will EVER know life's origin". Dawkins knowing better than to challenge REAL biologists; SITS MUTE/SUBMORONIC/"SELF-DECEPTIVE". Shermer has hoked up his scam based upon preferences & biases. NOTHING of course re Robert Lawrence Kuhn's far away greatest & overarching question: 'why is there something rather than nothing?" Or of course "life from non-life" Or do you self-deceive and imagine those phenomena don't really exists--- PRETTY FN CLOSE TO INFINITE SELF-DECEPTION!!
I think of it more as an infinite capacity for creating selves. The new self is born with the delusion fully embedded, as though the former self with its alternate beliefs can't even be conceived to have existed. The procession of selves is resilient in the face of new, conflicting input and self-contradictions over time.
The concept of a "nation" is an illusory notion which we have created in more recent history. It's a concept that can be reassuring, inspiring and motivating. It can also be used destructively to motivate people to fight wars and commit horrendous crimes against others.
@@davethebrahman9870 That's true, Dave. However, even in days when most people on earth were organised into quite small tribes, people could draw a sense of identity from those tribes. As time went on, people became able to identify with larger groupings such as nations.
Natural selection works in the immediate context, whether its social or a jungle. We act to survive socially and physically. Deception is a great survival strategy within the animal kingdom. And why not within ourselves. There are times I wish I could convince myself that I'm a genius :)
Your wish to be a genius may come from a habit of exaggerating the importance of those times when you're not as intelligent as you want to be. No one can be fully intelligent all the time, given that emotional intelligence and social intelligence are as vital as intellectual intelligence. Moral intelligence is also valuable. We humans have created a very complex set of communities to live in so we can never be as intelligent as we need to be.
Two bits stood out to me. The first is the idea that it's really useful to know whether an effect is associated with your own body as opposed to an outside influence. A simple stimulus-response machine wouldn't know or care about the difference. I don't think that speaks to determinism either way; but perhaps it hints at the nature of consciousness. The other thing that caught my attention is the bit about entrepreneurs, and how their delusional optimism is prosocial. To me that suggests that society could consider that there will always be damage to some individuals who martyr themselves to critical systems (not only entrepreneurs, but all those who follow pursuits with high social utility but low likelihood for individual success). It may make sense to supplement the delusional carrot with a social safety net that compensates the losers in the system.
Great episode! When it comes to free will though Michael is still repeating the same wishful thinking notions of volition and conscious change avoiding the rather straightforward fact that all ideas, motivations and decisions are based on, complex, unconscious brain processes: including his urge to prepare for a better behavior tomorrow. If thoughts are not products of brain processes (which btw we are becoming better in decoding and predicting), then what are they?
Determinism does not imply, despite what was lurking in the background of Michael's thinking here (and in many other videos), that whatever happens was guaranteed to happen NO MATTER THE PRECEDING FACTORS. That is something more like fatalism. If a person makes more society-friendly decisions after being punished for, say, cheating on a spouse (to use an example from the video), that does not entail that determinism is false. The punishment was one of the factors relevant to shaping the future.
Great talk - excellent guest. Though... I don't smoke anymore but when I did I was annoyed by people who get nothing from nicotine ragging on smokers. I've never drunk but I don't harsh on people who do. 'Calorie Reduction ("CR") has been pretty much debunked. D.A., J.D., NYC
Sounds like Shermer needs to watch 2000 Mules and read the book Rigged and interview those creators rather than just indulge his own bias with snarky insults.
Dr S Hola, Stop eating and drinking everything for 36 to 48 hrs. Read if youve not about metabolic water, Angus Barbieri, Jason Fung, Fung and Taubes chat.. So easy to drop that fat. Think enviro of evolutionary adaptedness, watch the FrancoGerman with Engi subtitles The Science of Fasting too.
Seems like two different definitions of rationality. Spock rationality for mathematics engineering physics science problems. And then Capt Kirk emotional rationality for political problem solving.
Magic, itself, is an aspect of Consciousness, being a fundamental of Reality of which the advancing Paradigm of Consciousness makes clear. Those who are yet to learn how Consciousness is responsible for may have a loooooong learning path ahead of them. That learning path may even extend beyond this life, as reincarnation is an evolutionary solution to the complexity and amount there is to learn in this Reality. Keep Digging, Host Shermer and you will make rational sense assuming you are honest in your intent to Learn the Truth !
Great episode. Michael, you can shed very interesting lights on this issue if you talk with Iain McGilchrist on his new book The Matter With Things. He recently published 1500-pages (truly impressive 3-volume book in two parts). He is taking his ideas from The Master and His Emissary (the issue of the divided brain and its implication for society, civilisation and human nature) into a much higher and richer level.
59:00 simple ....... worried about their sick irrational realm, they think that this existence must be so simple to suit their little sick irrational minds (Benefits of Delusion).
So disappointing that both speakers needed President Trump to make their initial points. Let's suppose Trump neverf existed, then what? Additionally, finding "no evidence" doesn't mean there is "no evidence".
@@christopherhamilton3621 I definitely can entertain the points, but I doubt Shermer s personal politics is what most of us tune in for. Also, I'm sure it is not important in regards to the GUEST that he is interviewing. He could easily choose something else to focus on. I'm a fan of MS and this channel. I'm trying to provide feedback. It's just my opinion. Why do you reactively assume I'm not intelligent or ignorant without a clear reason?
Me on the right, watching multiple sources from the left, a genuine fan of Schermer, listening to yet another podcast that would have been far better had they left Trump out of the conversation. unironically happy Trump is out of office and Biden is in, while we rocket towards double digit inflation, and gas prices. Food Shortages already starting, and rolling my eyes. If you dont like what the man said, welcome to the club, but how about comparing what he did (and more importantly didn't do) Lower taxes for all, record low unemployment, NO NEW WARS, peace deals in the middle east, Putin stayed the hell out of Ukraine, You guys could at least pretend you are aware that the current President is on course for being the worst in American history. Great Talk, please keep up the good work.
Hey Michael, HOW THE FUCK do you know your elections wasn't rigged? Do you have insider information? Are you responsible for counting the votes? Did you oversee the process? I tell you what, a real skeptic would at least admit epistemological humility in regards to complex things that involve people, money, power and interests. You are in NO POSITION to say your elections wasn't rigged, or to mock Donald Trump or anyone else for suspecting it was the case. We are going through the same shit here in Brazil, people that question things, that suspect the authorities and don't trust them are being mocked and ostracized. And in your position, it's ironic, isn't it? I expected more from you.
0:00 Introduction
5:54 Interview begins: What is a Delusion?
17:15 Evolution & Perception
27:00 Illusions and their uses
46:23 The William James & William Clifford Debate on Truths (and Feel-Good Delusions)
55:57 Atheism, Life After Death, & Aliens
1:01:03 Fear of Death (Fear Management Theory)
1:02:51 Free Will & Determinism (is Free Will a useful delusion? / Crime & Punishment)
1:23:06 Rapping up the interview / The Future of Delusions
53:55 - 54:17
Those who are more capable of accepting life as it truly is may benefit from a decreased reliance on irrational supernatural beliefs.
Beliefs have consequences, even if the believer isn't altogether aware of the ramifications at the time.
Belief in God can be inspiring and comforting and can motivate people to maintain the hard work needed to survive and thrive. However that belief can cripple some people with guilt and self-hatred or hatred of others. Many people succeed in quietly selecting helpful aspects of their religion but ignoring the extreme aspects, thus creating a better version of the religion than the founder may have envisioned.
@@tracesprite6078
Identify a good deed or moral act that can only be carried out with an accompanying belief in a supernatural dimension or mysticism.
@@jeffersonianideal I think all good deeds and moral actions can be achieved whether you believe in God or mysticism or not. Some people find their religious beliefs very motivating but other people can work to make the world a better place without any religious belief at all.
@@tracesprite6078
We find common ground. Finally, a well-reasoned comment.
@@tracesprite6078
Human existence is also replete with examples of how belief in mysticism has done harm.
What are the detriments to religious belief? Did the show sufficiently address this?
No one is free of biases. Our bias influences our perceptions.
56:12
Let’s say there is a God. Is it easier to substantiate a God that is perfectly omniscient and omnipotent, or a minimalist God that has no such power?
Human-created Gods are entirely impotent. Haven't you noted that God's will is always carried out by human actors?
@@homewall744
What is your example of a God that is not "human-created"?
Such a fascinating discussion, as is so often the case with Shermer and the Skeptic podcast. Thanks for all your amazing work!
51:09
If Martin Gardner believed in prayer, how much of a devout deist could he have been?
This is one of the best episodes of this year..
I wonder if part of the problem in asking whether certain 'delusions' are rational is that 'rational' most often means doing in a way that is calibrated to and achieves the goal. And the problem there is twofold: (a) one can't know AT THE TIME ONE IS TRYING TO BE RATIONAL whether the attempt will actually get to the goal (you can only judge that in retrospect; and (b) there are probably many different sets of decisions and actions that could get one to a particular goal, and if rational is defined instrumentally, one can't say that one of these is any more rational than the other if all of them work. (There is also a (c) which is that whether one's attempts get to the goal will often hinge at least a bit on luck and circumstance rather than rationality.)
Humankind has an infinite capacity for self-deception.
"No persisting behavior exists without specific benefit"--
David Sloan Wilson, Harvard Evolutionary Biologist
'Telling oneself that a lion won't hurt you' (Dawkins) or that
Kim Jong-un won't murder you for criticizing him is not even close
to the "infinite capacity for self-deception". But either would forever end your
life & reproductive lineage. Human's self-deception ENDS when it no longer has specific benefit. Richard Dawkins believes "in my lifetime we'll know the origin of
life". How close to infinite capacity is that? Pretty fn close:
th-cam.com/video/xIHMnD2FDeY/w-d-xo.html
ACTUAL BIOLOGISTS, Craig Venter, Nobel laureates in biology Leland Hartwell & Sydney Altman ALL say to Dawkins' face: "it's IMPOSSIBLE humans will EVER know life's origin". Dawkins knowing better than to challenge REAL biologists; SITS MUTE/SUBMORONIC/"SELF-DECEPTIVE".
Shermer has hoked up his scam based upon preferences & biases. NOTHING
of course re Robert Lawrence Kuhn's far away greatest & overarching question:
'why is there something rather than nothing?"
Or of course "life from non-life"
Or do you self-deceive and imagine those phenomena don't really exists---
PRETTY FN CLOSE TO INFINITE SELF-DECEPTION!!
True, and an even bigger capacity to deceive others.
I think of it more as an infinite capacity for creating selves. The new self is born with the delusion fully embedded, as though the former self with its alternate beliefs can't even be conceived to have existed. The procession of selves is resilient in the face of new, conflicting input and self-contradictions over time.
@@homewall744
I respectfully disagree. The proclivity for self-deception is almost always devoid of pushback.
The concept of a "nation" is an illusory notion which we have created in more recent history. It's a concept that can be reassuring, inspiring and motivating. It can also be used destructively to motivate people to fight wars and commit horrendous crimes against others.
Utter rubbish. The Romans thought of themselves as a nation, as did the ancient Jews.
@@davethebrahman9870 That's true, Dave. However, even in days when most people on earth were organised into quite small tribes, people could draw a sense of identity from those tribes. As time went on, people became able to identify with larger groupings such as nations.
@@tracesprite6078 I don’t see that as a bad thing. People kill each other when tribal just as they do when national.
@@davethebrahman9870 Yep, that's true.
Natural selection works in the immediate context, whether its social or a jungle. We act to survive socially and physically. Deception is a great survival strategy within the animal kingdom. And why not within ourselves. There are times I wish I could convince myself that I'm a genius :)
Your wish to be a genius may come from a habit of exaggerating the importance of those times when you're not as intelligent as you want to be. No one can be fully intelligent all the time, given that emotional intelligence and social intelligence are as vital as intellectual intelligence. Moral intelligence is also valuable. We humans have created a very complex set of communities to live in so we can never be as intelligent as we need to be.
Two bits stood out to me. The first is the idea that it's really useful to know whether an effect is associated with your own body as opposed to an outside influence. A simple stimulus-response machine wouldn't know or care about the difference. I don't think that speaks to determinism either way; but perhaps it hints at the nature of consciousness.
The other thing that caught my attention is the bit about entrepreneurs, and how their delusional optimism is prosocial. To me that suggests that society could consider that there will always be damage to some individuals who martyr themselves to critical systems (not only entrepreneurs, but all those who follow pursuits with high social utility but low likelihood for individual success). It may make sense to supplement the delusional carrot with a social safety net that compensates the losers in the system.
Always thought of this concept
Great episode! When it comes to free will though Michael is still repeating the same wishful thinking notions of volition and conscious change avoiding the rather straightforward fact that all ideas, motivations and decisions are based on, complex, unconscious brain processes: including his urge to prepare for a better behavior tomorrow. If thoughts are not products of brain processes (which btw we are becoming better in decoding and predicting), then what are they?
Thought food, thanks .
Determinism does not imply, despite what was lurking in the background of Michael's thinking here (and in many other videos), that whatever happens was guaranteed to happen NO MATTER THE PRECEDING FACTORS. That is something more like fatalism. If a person makes more society-friendly decisions after being punished for, say, cheating on a spouse (to use an example from the video), that does not entail that determinism is false. The punishment was one of the factors relevant to shaping the future.
Great talk - excellent guest. Though... I don't smoke anymore but when I did I was annoyed by people who get nothing from nicotine ragging on smokers. I've never drunk but I don't harsh on people who do.
'Calorie Reduction ("CR") has been pretty much debunked. D.A., J.D., NYC
You can think your viewpoint superior to others.
That's not the same as contempt or hostility.
Keep avenues of inquiry open.
Sounds like Shermer needs to watch 2000 Mules and read the book Rigged and interview those creators rather than just indulge his own bias with snarky insults.
Shermer you are no skeptic
The $50.00 thing isn't about the dollars it's about the percentage.
Dr S Hola, Stop eating and drinking everything for 36 to 48 hrs. Read if youve not about metabolic water, Angus Barbieri, Jason Fung, Fung and Taubes chat.. So easy to drop that fat. Think enviro of evolutionary adaptedness, watch the FrancoGerman with Engi subtitles The Science of Fasting too.
Seems like two different definitions of rationality.
Spock rationality for mathematics engineering physics science problems.
And then Capt Kirk emotional rationality for political problem solving.
Magic, itself, is an aspect of Consciousness, being a fundamental of Reality of which the advancing Paradigm of Consciousness makes clear. Those who are yet to learn how Consciousness is responsible for may have a loooooong learning path ahead of them. That learning path may even extend beyond this life, as reincarnation is an evolutionary solution to the complexity and amount there is to learn in this Reality.
Keep Digging, Host Shermer and you will make rational sense assuming you are honest in your intent to Learn the Truth !
This might be the best book of 2022.
Great episode. Michael, you can shed very interesting lights on this issue if you talk with Iain McGilchrist on his new book The Matter With Things. He recently published 1500-pages (truly impressive 3-volume book in two parts). He is taking his ideas from The Master and His Emissary (the issue of the divided brain and its implication for society, civilisation and human nature) into a much higher and richer level.
they talk about enlightenment too !
59:00 simple ....... worried about their sick irrational realm, they think that this existence must be so simple to suit their little sick irrational minds (Benefits of Delusion).
"Skeptical inquiry " sounds like a "Conspiracy theory"
Interestingly. Elvis was born on 8th jan. Literally 2 days after the 6th. So....there you go. Not spooky
Mike still looks good for 80!
So disappointing that both speakers needed President Trump to make their initial points. Let's suppose Trump neverf existed, then what? Additionally, finding "no evidence" doesn't mean there is "no evidence".
Both the host and his guest are biased in favor of the left, and they are NOT aware of that fact!
irrationals talk about irrationality !
they give each other titles too ! lucky ...... !
Your politics are boring Michael.
You can’t see/get the points made despite his politics?
@@christopherhamilton3621 I definitely can entertain the points, but I doubt Shermer s personal politics is what most of us tune in for. Also, I'm sure it is not important in regards to the GUEST that he is interviewing. He could easily choose something else to focus on. I'm a fan of MS and this channel. I'm trying to provide feedback. It's just my opinion. Why do you reactively assume I'm not intelligent or ignorant without a clear reason?
@@S.G.Wallner Thanks for answering my question.
Me on the right, watching multiple sources from the left, a genuine fan of Schermer, listening to yet another podcast that would have been far better had they left Trump out of the conversation. unironically happy Trump is out of office and Biden is in, while we rocket towards double digit inflation, and gas prices. Food Shortages already starting, and rolling my eyes. If you dont like what the man said, welcome to the club, but how about comparing what he did (and more importantly didn't do) Lower taxes for all, record low unemployment, NO NEW WARS, peace deals in the middle east, Putin stayed the hell out of Ukraine, You guys could at least pretend you are aware that the current President is on course for being the worst in American history. Great Talk, please keep up the good work.
tell me you listen to Fox News without saying so...
@@gao123_89 tell me you listen to nothing but left wing media without telling me you listen to nothing but left wing media.
Shermer and his guests are both psychologists and not aware of their left-wing biases!
Lack of evidence does not prove it never happened.
been getting a bunch of these books and people aer wondering what the fuck am i reading. Lol this is one of those things to figure out for themselves.
Hey Michael, HOW THE FUCK do you know your elections wasn't rigged? Do you have insider information?
Are you responsible for counting the votes? Did you oversee the process?
I tell you what, a real skeptic would at least admit epistemological humility in regards to complex things that involve people, money, power and interests.
You are in NO POSITION to say your elections wasn't rigged, or to mock Donald Trump or anyone else for suspecting it was the case.
We are going through the same shit here in Brazil, people that question things, that suspect the authorities and don't trust them are being mocked and ostracized.
And in your position, it's ironic, isn't it? I expected more from you.
of course it's OK to laugh at D. Trump, because he's a clown.
The thing about shermer is he believes absolutely nothing i reckon he goes to the registration office to check whose moms on his birth certificate
What a typically idiotic ad hominem… Tells me more about you…
What I don't understand is someone as intelligent as Jordan Peterson believing in god.