My mono white deck runs no ramp spells other than Sol Ring, however it does run a bunch of “find Plains” cards because I never want to miss a land drop. It works because I have a very low curve - it’s Sram, Senior Edificer with a ton of 0-2 cmc equipment and auras.
I think you have to be careful here. There are different kinds of rocks. Fast mana is a whole other category.) 0 and 1 mana rocks break some of the precepts talked about here. This is why you see cEDH decks with lower land counts - they have the moxes and mana crypts that allow them to be playing all out turn 1 or 2. The other key variables are card draw - if you are drawing a lot of cards, your percentage of hitting changes - and commander. If you have a commander that can ramp or draw and have low cmc, it totally changes the probabilities.
The only thing you should ever replace lands with is card draw, specifically draw that will draw you at least three cards. This works because you can reasonably expect that card to net you at least one land when played. However, this needs to be balanced as it's only effective if you can guarantee to play that card draw with the mana you expect to have when you first miss a land drop. Another point: You state that the player who spends the most mana usually wins. However it's worth highlighting that this should exclude mana spent on further mana generation. For instance, if I cast a Sol Ring, a Cluestone and a Thran Dynamo then I need to have cards in hand to cast and sufficient turns to cast them. I've spent 8 mana so far allowing me to generate 10 on turn 4 (6 from rocks, three from lands). However my opponent has feasibly spent 6 mana already on board and is ready to spend another 4 on their fourth turn - bringing them to a total of 10 (matching mine). Meanwhile I'm three cards down. If I don't use all of my 10 mana on turn 4, they're still ahead on board and on card advantage. Of course, my increased mana production should help me in the long game. However it's important to recognise the detrimental effects of taking turns out to ramp and thereby make informed decisions when deck building.
Card draw replacing lands is a much better argument than replacing lands with mana rocks, for the reasons stated in the video. I run a few decks with so many cantrips or enough large amount of card draw that I naturally flood out even with 30-32 lands in said decks. They still have the normal amount of ramp. It helps even more with a low, low top end.
Same, But the draw back I noticed is that sometime I have a cheap cantrip that I must cast uselessly in early game to draw (hoping for a land) because I didn't drop one that turn.
@@maxpelletier2237 I’ve been phasing some cards out for the MDFCs. Either turn 1 or 2 tapped land (untapped for some now with MH3) or late game utility when the above rate cost doesn’t matter much. Most of my decks are now 34-35 lands + 4-5 MDFCs and I’m doing great.
I've found that, with the way I build my decks, I usually only need get to a certain amount of Mana and can generally work from there, rather than needing to hit my land drops every single turn. For instance, I have a Marisi, Breaker of the Coil deck filled with a bunch of cheap, evasive creatures to make my opponents whittle each other down through Goading. Since those creatures usually only clock in at around 2-3 mana, and the fact that it doesn't need to commit super hard to board (needing only 1 nigh-unblockable creatures per opponent, plus Commander), it can actually operate really well at around 4-5 Mana for a while until I draw one of my finishers, like Gisela, Blade of Goldnight. I also have a Xenagos Deck focused on stacking Damage Multipliers on large Trample creatures to do massive lethal damage that really only needs to hit 5-6 Mana to be able to cast most of what it needs. Most the Trample creatures and Multipliers fall on either 5 or 6, with some of those being instant one-shots on a player, like a Bloodthirster in a 4-player pod, or Godo searching out Embercleave. All that being said, I still like upping my consistency to avoid having to mulligan constantly, and still run around 35-36 lands and 12-14 Ramp, so I think your advice here is sound. Heck, my aforementioned Xenagos Deck does indeed run 20 Ramp spells (10 1-mana ramp, 10 3-mana), which felt... extremely validating when you got to that part! So yeah, great work you're doing here, and I love how clearly and concisely you lay out these things in these videos. Makes it real easy to understand!
I disagree. You CAN cut lands for rocks IF your deck has enough draw to still ensure to hit your landdrop each turn. In general you want to draw a single land per turn, not zero, not two. This is why people reduce their land count in favor for ramp - because you can play multiple rocks per turn but normally you can only make a single land drop. Some people however make the mistake to forget that their deck doesn't draw enough cards for such a low land count.
I personally find my decks with 32 lands and 12 rocks/ramp cards works pretty well for me I also only run 2 cmc mana rocks unless the rock does something else Like basalt monument because it's part of a combo win Or coveted jewel witch is -3 mana for 1 turn but draws 3
I run 38 lands plus 10+ ramp. I don’t know how people do it otherwise unless they’re playing fast mana. Even with a low curve, I want to ramp to play 2-3+ spells a turn.
2:24 correct but white decks can and usually should cut lands for things like land tax. It really depends on what exactly you wanna do too some decks don't benefit from curving out in the late game and some decks care more about specific cmcs also card draw can take the place of lands
My main commmander deck has 36 lands and 8 or 9 rocks. Plus an Ashnod’s Altar. It is a token deck after all. I can usually afford to sac a creature for 2 mana.
Love the maths, personally I want to customize my ramp to the deck itself also my sons use the inter webs I’m old school pen and paper and maths to make my mana base. But let’s compare K’rik to Chulane for instance totally different ideas for ramp here. I use dorks in chulane and rituals and K’rik himself in K’rik.
Greetings , for me, mana dorks, some 2 mana ramp and 2 mana rocks are the only ramp I need in my casual EDH decks ,( excluding those cedh rocks) ahahahaha , thxs for this informative video Man
My thought process is as the game continues you get more card draw, and with it higher chances of land. So I tend to run low on land with 34-36 in the deck. However I'll run 3 search for land cards like Kodama's reach and a last March Of The Ents. Not for the lands drops as much as it is to remove the lands from what I'll be drawing. My group usually pops between turn 6 and 8 so drawing more lands than you can play are pseudo dead draws. Lands are a crucial mechanic of the game obviously but getting flooded when all you need is 1 or 2 pieces to win is maddening.
Do you consider cost reduction as ramp/mana rocks? The problem I have with many mana reduction cards is that they are conditional. Urza's Incubator is only for creatures, so it doesn't help with a significant portion of the deck.
it depends on exactly that - how much of the deck does it provide a discount for? The medallions in a mono color deck? Yes I'd count it towards ramp. Urza's Incubator in a deck with 15 tribal creatures? probably not.
Due to how consistency works with lands, then you can probably cut a little bit of lands if you add a significant amount of ramp, assuming you are still moving around in the decent territory of lands. For a normal deck this might mean running 24 lands and 8-12 ramp cards instead of running 26-28 lands. This in a way has to do with consistency of getting enough mana, and while it does not bring you ahead, it does help with consistency around your normal targeted areas.
I was talking about a normal 60 card constructed deck. We use normal decks for our casual games. A lot of the balance comes from a few people (me included) having multiple decks that we loan out, and those decks are roughly on similar casual power level. A lot of the things about how casual games are run are similar to how normal commander games are run, it is just that it has somehow become common for people to make commander decks as their casual deck.
i think its fine to take out lands for certain rocks. if the rock is free like chrome mox or mana crypt then you can use them interchangeably. often its better to draw chrome mox or mana crypt than it is to draw a land because it means you can use them in tandem with dropping your land so you've effectively played two lands that turn
I agree, I run a 5 color deck in commander. I run a 35 lands an 10 mana rock, with 3 ramp spells, I got mana screw but ended up winning still because I had an equipment that made treasure tokens to help cover any unfortunate card draws. At the end, I only played 6 lands at the end with no mana rocks or ramp.
I'd say that is pretty low. I'd go with 38+ lands on three or more colors. The rocks could be less too, 6 or 7 is just fine and the 3 ramp is good too. Treasure creation is key of course, but should not be a replacement for lands.
@@jonathanblaqk sounds like a good idea, only thing is Domain is also part of the lands, ramp spells I have is land type rather than basic land card. Otherwise all my basic forests would be played too soon. With that said, should I add more cards on names, or just Land that taps for multiple mana, but can't search it normally?
Some players watching this might be sighing because they're wprking on a deck with a companion like Keruga and know that ramping sooner than turn 3 is not feasible...except that it is. Just run a bunch of lands that net more than 1 mana each time they tap and you'll be shocked how fast the deck runs. There's a ton of options in mono green and keruga is a Simic creature. Choosing a commander for him that also ramps and/or fixes mana is also a huge help.
I usually do now days 35-33 lands and 15 ramp cards only like 8 or less Mana rocks/dorks with 2 or 3 Mana cost the rest are cheap ramp spells that are 3 or less to cast. Alot better then what I use to do like 40 lands with almost 3 or 5 ramps 🤣🤣🤣 I never could get anything done bc everyone is ahead of me but glad I seen my bad errors of my ways a year ago
lol those people who say 30 lands because they have lots of mana rocks is not a misinformation. i been playing 30-32 lands and i dont get mana screwed often, actually i ramp more and cast more spells. but this always depends on ur mana curve. dont expect to run 30 land and some ramp with a 5 mana curve decks.
For me it’s more the average cmc or what I’d like to be doing with the mana. Tetsuko for instance I run more mana dorks in than land cause when I don’t need the mana I can push them through for damage.
Osgir is great for running mana rocks and ramp is better than lands objectively speaking at least to a certain extent however I recommend anywhere from 30-37 lands heavily dependent on the specific deck my osgir deck which is a greedy big mana deck with 17 mana rocks ontop of other stuff runs 33 lands which is arguably excessive I could definitely cut a land or 2 for a rock or something that fetches lands
So if I’m running 40 lands, 20 ramp spells/rocks, 10 sources of draw, 10 removal spells, and a few tutors, that leaves about 15 cards to synergize with my commander. Obviously this is an exaggeration, but it doesn’t seem too far off from what you’re suggesting here. Am I missing something? This way of deck building seems like a good way to spend the entire game durdling and not actually doing anything fun.
It's all dependent on what your deck does. The emphasis on what your deck NEEDS to do is important here - I just want people to ensure they have statistics in mind when deck building. "don't drive a car on flat tires"
That is a bit of a sentiment I have too. I usually only build a deck when that synergy I so crave *is* part of the utility I need. Tribal deck? I’m running some tribal-based card draw and boardwipes. Artifacts? Mana rocks, need I say more? But yes, sadly not every strategy allows for this, so personally when I build a deck who’s synergy doesn’t help with the “vegetables” I should have in a deck, I usually suck it up and call the deck janky, because otherwise I make something in cookie cutter fashion, and I want to avoid that in commander. It really isn’t that bad though, because all levels of play are pretty good, plus you never know if your deck gets proper support printed in the future. That’s my take, anyways.
duuuuuuude. Thank you! I've been playing mtg for about 3 years now and I am...average. But I've been trying to understand the math behind it for a while and no videos seems explain it. You've done a great job. Thank you! I now...semi understand what I'm doing 😂
The trap I fall into is that my opening hand only has 2 mana, but I have a Sol Ring or Signet, so I keep the hand. Then I miss my turn 3 land drop and maybe even 4 and 5. Game over.😢
This video is indeed good info for the normal commder deck but since commander is very diverse format this won't work with every deck. Like my deck is more than fine with 30 lands (I often actually end up flooding) and the critical turn things doesn't really work since my deck has a lot of cards on the more expensive side but I'm not planning to hard cast them
He says your critical turn is when you start to do synergistic things in your deck. So if that's cheating out big spells, it would just be what turn is that and how much mana will it require
I still disagree in most circumstances. If I play a ramp spell on turn 2 and 3, but then I miss my 6th land drop and those ramp spells are not 'just lands I had to pay mana for' because I got to use them and be ahead of the curve for a period of time, too. When the 'lose case' for running less lands and more rocks is '6 mana on turn 4, 5 and 6' and the 'lose case' for running too many lands is 4,5,6 mana but 3 dead cards in my hand... I'd rather have the chance for explosiveness and higher card quality, but miss a land drop sometimes in the mid-late game than hit all my land drops, but be slower or flood more frequently. I am interested to see your take including card draw, but i think it's key here. I also often find low cost card draw to be controversial, surprisingly
Im building a reanimator deck and im having issues determining the correct amount of lands and ramp. I believe reaniamtor is a very unique deck in the sense that 1) the average mana cost is not "real" cause it considers the cost of several fatties you dont wanna ever cast 2) it loots significantly so it sees more cards than the average deck....anyone can help?
Look at the deck w/o reanimate on targets in versus with them in then take the average. That’s what you should be basing your counts on. You won’t always need to hard cast reanimated targets but you need the ability to eventually
@@CommanderMechanic i just calculated the average and the average mana value without lands is 1.9 so lets say its 2 to be on the safe side. So my critical turn is 4 so I wanna ramp between turns 1-2 so I can double spell on turn 3. Correct? Another question regarding the number of lands: im running 35 but because this deck loots so much would you suggest going to 34?
if you're running fast mana you should be well on your way, but I wouldn't stop short of 38 lands. In green you can run all the best land ramp too - but if your commander is your core game plan you need to make sure you get there as fast as possible.
I can't really argue here lol. Like the narrator in Darkest Dungeon says--- "Overconfidence is a slow and insidious killer." I don't usually play many, but I tend to run specific rocks, some of which are sacrificed for deck-thinning, be it for draw or land tutoring, and Sol Ring is one of those more-bang-for-your-buck rocks, so I can supplement my addiction to jank strategies. I think of it like I'm a reckless motorcycle stunt driver. I'm here for a good time, not a long time, but I do supplement my brews with about 6 to 8 big mana value bombs, which can include some boardwipes and ways to capitalize on them. I have definitely played for goober-town levels of greed and fun interactions, like when (in my Lulu//Veteran Soldier vehicles brew) I run The Weatherlight, Board the Weatherlight, Bennie Bracks, Sram, Ellyn Harbreeze, Skullclamp, and other fun bits of repeatable draw, ramp, and synergy. I like playing mind-games with my opponents, and I'll build to let my cards do the bamboozling for me. I enjoy being the class clown at the table.
I have a tendency to run a lower land count, but my decks tend to cover that. Raggadragga running 33 lands but 25 mana dorks has been fine. Malcolm/Kediss running about 35 lands but producing 3+ treasures a turn, also fine. Brewing a landfall deck tho, and planning 40ish lands
Ok so if i wanna play 5 mana commander on turn 4, i need 10 ramps spells, under 4 mana. And if i want the commander on turn 3, i need 20 ramps. Is that right?
I run 36 or 37 lands + 8 rock/ramp cards. And my deck is high mana cost, but I haven't been having mana issues since most of my cards hit big. My commander (Kaalia) is low cmc but everything else is chonky.
@@CommanderMechanic Of course. But she often dies before I get to attack unless I got haste on the same turn. But if she stays, that's 2 big drops per turn.
I know I'm way late to this video but is running tons of mana rocks inherently wrong? I have a Ur Dragon deck with about 34 lands and a ton of those dragon specific rocks plus the usual rocks you most commonly see as well as a diamond lotus and chromatic Lantern.
@@CommanderMechanic 35* For rocks I have Arcane Signet, Carnelian Orb of Dragonkind, Chromatic Lantern,Commander Sphere, Dragon Hoard, Everflowing Chalice, Glittering Stockpile, Jade Orb of Dragonkind, Jeweled Lotus, Lapis Orb of Dragonkind Manalith, Orb of Dragonkind and Sol Ring. I also have Rivaz of the Claw which gives me mana. The deck also contains many ways to cheat things out such as Tamiyo's Journal, Dragon Arch, several of the Planeswalkers, Maelstrom Nexus, Sunbird Invocation and even Ur Dragon himself. Plus some enchantment that make me more mana like Bounty of Luxa combined with all the treasures I make. Plus all my token generation allows me to establish a strong board state early on.
I only play 30 lands cause of the deck I play I play meren combo and my mana curve is low it also seems to work pretty well for my deck cause I win consistently
How do you determine how much mana you NEED to be ahead by on which turn? For example, the latest deck I built has an average mana cost of 3.3. By your formula my critical turn is the turn I can generate 6 plus mana, which theoretically is turn 6. Do I need to scale ramp/lands to be at the critical turn on turn 5? Turn 4? That's the determination I don't understand (to simplify, I have 39 lands 37 excluding MDFCs and 7 ramp/rock spells)
that's up to you to determine based on the cards in your deck, your commander, and what your strategy is. I cover critical turns a bit more in last week's video about lands!
That depends on the powerlevel you need to achieve. Do you want to cast a 6 cmc commander on turn 3? Or is it ok to cast him on turn 5? Is your commander the engine of the deck and expensive ala Brudiclad? Or is he how you win ala Thromok? Is casting your 4 cmc commander on turn 3 ok? Or is the table too quick and you need to be faster? That’s how you know what your critical turns are.
I am similar, often with another 3-5 cards that aren't necessarily traditional early ramp spells, but do help with mana production, like crucible of worlds or Oracle of mul daya for example.
0 mana rocks are mostly equal to land, in a low cmc deck rocks do allow you to play 30 or less lands but it is really about cmc and top end. However is this super important for a casual deck? I tend to worry about hitting my land drops (35-37ish land) along side a handful of rocks (8-12) to accellerate my gameplan in casual, if my ave cmc is 3-4 this is normally fine.
Meh. In causal edh I guess this makes sense. But for competitive all that matters is how much Mana can you produce on turn 1 or 2. Most competitive decks can tap for 4-6 Mana on turn 2 on aversge with 28-32 lands
@@stevo8908 38 with several mana rocks works great. I wind up running 39 lands in a lot of my decks. It just depends on how many mana rocks you feel like you need. I also usually add black to most of my commander decks because tutors are so important in the format.
I got my own lil formula 1 color deck: 33-35 lands 2 color deck: 34-36 lands 3 color: 35-37 4 color: 36-38 5 color: 37-39 Ramp ranges anywhere from 6-18, it's highly dependent on the decks CMC, commanders CMC, and what the purpose of the deck is. (My yuriko deck has 34 land and 6 ramp, cause the CMC is super low and operates fine at 4 mana) I'll go outside my land count depending on the purpose of the deck aswell, but that's rare. Landfall is a good example or if my CMC is super low.
Theres three pop ups in the video to subscribe, two before it's even halfway done! I liked the content of the video, but that's just obnoxious. Yes, I know I can subscribe and like.
@@CommanderMechanic Don't worry, I clicked the buttons twice for the first two! In all seriousness, though, I left a like but didn't subscribble. I enjoyed the video, but I probably wouldn't look at new uploads, and I'd rather be an active subscriber.
The 2 rules my group like to break in Commander are having more than 100 card decks and not playing with lands that aren't for utility. Manabases are among the most expensive parts of deck building. If you eliminate that it allows you to put all the cards you actually want in your deck that do something. Lands don't do anything really. In Landless you draw 2 less cards and discard at 9 instead of eight since you aren't making land drops every turn. This provides every Deck with more gas, no flooding, no mana screws, and you simply use a die for the mana color of your choice when you would make a land drop. You can still ramp and track everything normally. We've been doing this for a few years now and that is exclusively how we build decks at this point. It's so much more fun :)
I like to start with 14 ramp pieces or 14 of any effect I want to see in my opening hand because that's a 1/7 chance. I like to start with 40 lands in any deck but have gone a little higher in green. People tell me that's high, but I don't think so, a lot of really good lands enter tapped and you can't count on them, some of them have effects you'd rather use instead of its land side, and fetch lands don't add mana so they are also not really lands, and colorless lands often bring problems. So 40 isn't all that high if you properly assume these cards aren't helping you get your gameplan online. Also, realistically I want to play a land for every turn of the 10/12 turns of the game. I do think ramp is over rated though and not every deck needs to go a turn or two faster. The card slots you use for ramp are often better used for more threats rather than better threats in a proactive aggro deck, more card draw and interaction in control decks, or more tutors and higher variance tools in combo decks. I like ramping out for decks where most of my cards land on a certain spot on the curve or in decks with powerful commanders that are going to be targeted down. Other than that, more basics and redundant game pieces are the way I like to go. Related to the point in this video, I see players treat draw spells the way they treat ramp, thinking they can cut lands to play a 2mana draw spell, but the argument against that is even dodgier that a mana rock; instead of playing a 0 mana add 1 mana using 1 card slot, you're paying 2 mana to 'maybe' play a land across 2 or 3 card slots, and the 'maybe' caveat makes it strictly worse than a mana rock. When designing a ramp package, I like the suggestion to consider why you're ramping. Sometimes what you're looking for is to go from 5 to 10 mana and you might consider a mana dounbler over a signet. Or 4 to 7 where you might want a suite or 14 signet style ramp slots and 8 thran dynamo style ramp pieces. Or maybe its really about casting more 2 mana spells more often, in which case your ramp package should probably be cost reduction cards and ramp pieces you can trade to draw a card later. This is a great topic, thanks for putting it out there
I'm not convinced that playing fast and on curve is actually a good thing, outside of cedh or a very tuned deck If you're not able to close the game right away you're just putting a target on your back and getting focused
I run 30 lands, average cmc is 1.8. Combo heavy, mana crypt, mox amber, talismans signets. I honestly dont care about lands at all in that deck. Even if i fall behind bad. Everything is still castable and i probably have the game in the bag by turn 5
OK bro. Play your 40 lands 20 rocks deck. Mana generation is mana generation. Card advantage is card advantage. Lands and rocks don't win on their own spells abilities and creatures do. The player who spends the most mana generally wins not the player who plays the most lands. The question then is how to spend the most on relevant spells. Assuming card draw is equal in your scenario you average 4 land hand with at least 1 rock, So 2 spells or creatures in hand. You may be less mana screwed overall but this is the recipe to run out of gas in more games than not. You may have optimized the mana but I bet you'd win less games overall using this kinda strategy
i'm sorry i lost interest halfway through the video. you don't mention fetch lands and why people don't run Evolving Wilds/Terramorphic Expanse and would maybe run Fabled Passage but would run Prismatic Vista or any of the well known "fetch lands" they get you "ramp" and one less potential "dead draw".
"deck thinning" as people call it, of the magnitude of a fetch or two or evolving wilds, makes no appreciable impact on probability as you still run the same probability of drawing any of those specific lands as you do any card in your library. Next week's video is card draw, which may hold your interest.
Personally I both agree and disagree. There's a balance between the two. If ramp didn't at least kind of replace lands I wouldn't be able to win a game without having any lands in play but I can and I have.
My inner engineer is happy with the mathemartic approach you took with this land count explanations
A mechanic needs math, believe it or not! Stay tuned for next week's video on card draw!
4:30 For anyone who cares, with the 10 mana rocks setup you have exactly a 67.360374217 percent chance of drawing one in your first ten cards.
Would recommend hypergeometric calculations for finding the right ramp density/any card type density. They're made for this kind of issue
My mono white deck runs no ramp spells other than Sol Ring, however it does run a bunch of “find Plains” cards because I never want to miss a land drop. It works because I have a very low curve - it’s Sram, Senior Edificer with a ton of 0-2 cmc equipment and auras.
I think people running tons of cheap card draw is why they cut lands honestly. I run 35 lands in my decks with 10-15 ramp and 10-15 card draw.
I think you have to be careful here. There are different kinds of rocks. Fast mana is a whole other category.) 0 and 1 mana rocks break some of the precepts talked about here. This is why you see cEDH decks with lower land counts - they have the moxes and mana crypts that allow them to be playing all out turn 1 or 2. The other key variables are card draw - if you are drawing a lot of cards, your percentage of hitting changes - and commander. If you have a commander that can ramp or draw and have low cmc, it totally changes the probabilities.
Prime example... veyran cantrip. Turn 3 dead 21 mander unblockable
thanks for commenting what i was going to 🙏
Another things is not everyone has money to get a mana crypt or a jeweled lotus 💀
@@moichamoy2274 i agree. Thats y you trade. Get rid of stupid expensive tutors and get good cards. Tutors r the worst
@@moichamoy2274 PROXIESSS BABEEEY
The only thing you should ever replace lands with is card draw, specifically draw that will draw you at least three cards. This works because you can reasonably expect that card to net you at least one land when played.
However, this needs to be balanced as it's only effective if you can guarantee to play that card draw with the mana you expect to have when you first miss a land drop.
Another point: You state that the player who spends the most mana usually wins. However it's worth highlighting that this should exclude mana spent on further mana generation. For instance, if I cast a Sol Ring, a Cluestone and a Thran Dynamo then I need to have cards in hand to cast and sufficient turns to cast them. I've spent 8 mana so far allowing me to generate 10 on turn 4 (6 from rocks, three from lands). However my opponent has feasibly spent 6 mana already on board and is ready to spend another 4 on their fourth turn - bringing them to a total of 10 (matching mine). Meanwhile I'm three cards down. If I don't use all of my 10 mana on turn 4, they're still ahead on board and on card advantage.
Of course, my increased mana production should help me in the long game. However it's important to recognise the detrimental effects of taking turns out to ramp and thereby make informed decisions when deck building.
check out the following video in the series - available on the channel - about card draw specifically!
Card draw replacing lands is a much better argument than replacing lands with mana rocks, for the reasons stated in the video. I run a few decks with so many cantrips or enough large amount of card draw that I naturally flood out even with 30-32 lands in said decks. They still have the normal amount of ramp. It helps even more with a low, low top end.
we look at card draw in next week's video ;)
Same, But the draw back I noticed is that sometime I have a cheap cantrip that I must cast uselessly in early game to draw (hoping for a land) because I didn't drop one that turn.
@@maxpelletier2237 I’ve been phasing some cards out for the MDFCs. Either turn 1 or 2 tapped land (untapped for some now with MH3) or late game utility when the above rate cost doesn’t matter much. Most of my decks are now 34-35 lands + 4-5 MDFCs and I’m doing great.
I've been brewing more and more with 40 lands especially after reading Bennie Smiths articles, 4-5 are mdfc, haven't looked back.
What is the name of the article?
can you tell us where to find that article?
Definitely my favourite type of video you produce!
Glad to hear it! More to come next week!
I've found that, with the way I build my decks, I usually only need get to a certain amount of Mana and can generally work from there, rather than needing to hit my land drops every single turn.
For instance, I have a Marisi, Breaker of the Coil deck filled with a bunch of cheap, evasive creatures to make my opponents whittle each other down through Goading. Since those creatures usually only clock in at around 2-3 mana, and the fact that it doesn't need to commit super hard to board (needing only 1 nigh-unblockable creatures per opponent, plus Commander), it can actually operate really well at around 4-5 Mana for a while until I draw one of my finishers, like Gisela, Blade of Goldnight.
I also have a Xenagos Deck focused on stacking Damage Multipliers on large Trample creatures to do massive lethal damage that really only needs to hit 5-6 Mana to be able to cast most of what it needs. Most the Trample creatures and Multipliers fall on either 5 or 6, with some of those being instant one-shots on a player, like a Bloodthirster in a 4-player pod, or Godo searching out Embercleave.
All that being said, I still like upping my consistency to avoid having to mulligan constantly, and still run around 35-36 lands and 12-14 Ramp, so I think your advice here is sound. Heck, my aforementioned Xenagos Deck does indeed run 20 Ramp spells (10 1-mana ramp, 10 3-mana), which felt... extremely validating when you got to that part!
So yeah, great work you're doing here, and I love how clearly and concisely you lay out these things in these videos. Makes it real easy to understand!
Im a new player and this is exactly the type of content I need.
I disagree. You CAN cut lands for rocks IF your deck has enough draw to still ensure to hit your landdrop each turn.
In general you want to draw a single land per turn, not zero, not two. This is why people reduce their land count in favor for ramp - because you can play multiple rocks per turn but normally you can only make a single land drop.
Some people however make the mistake to forget that their deck doesn't draw enough cards for such a low land count.
we get into draw (and the card draw paradox) next week!
I personally find my decks with 32 lands and 12 rocks/ramp cards works pretty well for me
I also only run 2 cmc mana rocks unless the rock does something else
Like basalt monument because it's part of a combo win
Or coveted jewel witch is -3 mana for 1 turn but draws 3
I run 38 lands plus 10+ ramp. I don’t know how people do it otherwise unless they’re playing fast mana. Even with a low curve, I want to ramp to play 2-3+ spells a turn.
What do you call a low curve though? That's different for everyone, in a low curve you don't run 38 lands
Ramp spells are superior mana rocks… bc most pods don’t like mass land removal. But vandalblasting all the mana rocks is no problem
2:24 correct but white decks can and usually should cut lands for things like land tax. It really depends on what exactly you wanna do too some decks don't benefit from curving out in the late game and some decks care more about specific cmcs also card draw can take the place of lands
Great video! Thanks for the breakdown
My main commmander deck has 36 lands and 8 or 9 rocks. Plus an Ashnod’s Altar. It is a token deck after all. I can usually afford to sac a creature for 2 mana.
Love the maths, personally I want to customize my ramp to the deck itself also my sons use the inter webs I’m old school pen and paper and maths to make my mana base. But let’s compare K’rik to Chulane for instance totally different ideas for ramp here. I use dorks in chulane and rituals and K’rik himself in K’rik.
Greetings , for me, mana dorks, some 2 mana ramp and 2 mana rocks are the only ramp I need in my casual EDH decks ,( excluding those cedh rocks) ahahahaha , thxs for this informative video Man
My thought process is as the game continues you get more card draw, and with it higher chances of land. So I tend to run low on land with 34-36 in the deck. However I'll run 3 search for land cards like Kodama's reach and a last March Of The Ents. Not for the lands drops as much as it is to remove the lands from what I'll be drawing. My group usually pops between turn 6 and 8 so drawing more lands than you can play are pseudo dead draws. Lands are a crucial mechanic of the game obviously but getting flooded when all you need is 1 or 2 pieces to win is maddening.
Do you consider cost reduction as ramp/mana rocks? The problem I have with many mana reduction cards is that they are conditional. Urza's Incubator is only for creatures, so it doesn't help with a significant portion of the deck.
it depends on exactly that - how much of the deck does it provide a discount for? The medallions in a mono color deck? Yes I'd count it towards ramp. Urza's Incubator in a deck with 15 tribal creatures? probably not.
Why wouldn't the significant portion of your deck can be creatures is the real question?
@@blaze556922what the hell does your sentence mean is the real question?
@@danacoleman4007 had no idea it had put Dad instead of deck... Voice text
Due to how consistency works with lands, then you can probably cut a little bit of lands if you add a significant amount of ramp, assuming you are still moving around in the decent territory of lands. For a normal deck this might mean running 24 lands and 8-12 ramp cards instead of running 26-28 lands. This in a way has to do with consistency of getting enough mana, and while it does not bring you ahead, it does help with consistency around your normal targeted areas.
if you're running less than 30 lands in a commander deck you've made a devastating mistake in deck building
I was talking about a normal 60 card constructed deck. We use normal decks for our casual games. A lot of the balance comes from a few people (me included) having multiple decks that we loan out, and those decks are roughly on similar casual power level.
A lot of the things about how casual games are run are similar to how normal commander games are run, it is just that it has somehow become common for people to make commander decks as their casual deck.
Land count is really depend on the decks them selve. My decks range from 29 lands in my yuriko deck to 40 in my landfall deck.
i think its fine to take out lands for certain rocks. if the rock is free like chrome mox or mana crypt then you can use them interchangeably. often its better to draw chrome mox or mana crypt than it is to draw a land because it means you can use them in tandem with dropping your land so you've effectively played two lands that turn
hey, thank you! this helps tons.
Glad to hear it!
I agree, I run a 5 color deck in commander. I run a 35 lands an 10 mana rock, with 3 ramp spells, I got mana screw but ended up winning still because I had an equipment that made treasure tokens to help cover any unfortunate card draws. At the end, I only played 6 lands at the end with no mana rocks or ramp.
I'd say that is pretty low. I'd go with 38+ lands on three or more colors. The rocks could be less too, 6 or 7 is just fine and the 3 ramp is good too.
Treasure creation is key of course, but should not be a replacement for lands.
@@jonathanblaqk sounds like a good idea, only thing is Domain is also part of the lands, ramp spells I have is land type rather than basic land card. Otherwise all my basic forests would be played too soon. With that said, should I add more cards on names, or just Land that taps for multiple mana, but can't search it normally?
As an Aesi player I laugh in lands, ramps and card draw
Some players watching this might be sighing because they're wprking on a deck with a companion like Keruga and know that ramping sooner than turn 3 is not feasible...except that it is. Just run a bunch of lands that net more than 1 mana each time they tap and you'll be shocked how fast the deck runs. There's a ton of options in mono green and keruga is a Simic creature. Choosing a commander for him that also ramps and/or fixes mana is also a huge help.
I usually do now days 35-33 lands and 15 ramp cards only like 8 or less Mana rocks/dorks with 2 or 3 Mana cost the rest are cheap ramp spells that are 3 or less to cast. Alot better then what I use to do like 40 lands with almost 3 or 5 ramps 🤣🤣🤣 I never could get anything done bc everyone is ahead of me but glad I seen my bad errors of my ways a year ago
lol those people who say 30 lands because they have lots of mana rocks is not a misinformation. i been playing 30-32 lands and i dont get mana screwed often, actually i ramp more and cast more spells. but this always depends on ur mana curve. dont expect to run 30 land and some ramp with a 5 mana curve decks.
Well this was a fantastic video. Love it.
For me it’s more the average cmc or what I’d like to be doing with the mana. Tetsuko for instance I run more mana dorks in than land cause when I don’t need the mana I can push them through for damage.
"not needing the mana" is because of your average CMC tho! it's all connected!
Osgir is great for running mana rocks and ramp is better than lands objectively speaking at least to a certain extent however I recommend anywhere from 30-37 lands heavily dependent on the specific deck my osgir deck which is a greedy big mana deck with 17 mana rocks ontop of other stuff runs 33 lands which is arguably excessive I could definitely cut a land or 2 for a rock or something that fetches lands
So if I’m running 40 lands, 20 ramp spells/rocks, 10 sources of draw, 10 removal spells, and a few tutors, that leaves about 15 cards to synergize with my commander. Obviously this is an exaggeration, but it doesn’t seem too far off from what you’re suggesting here. Am I missing something? This way of deck building seems like a good way to spend the entire game durdling and not actually doing anything fun.
It's all dependent on what your deck does. The emphasis on what your deck NEEDS to do is important here - I just want people to ensure they have statistics in mind when deck building. "don't drive a car on flat tires"
That is a bit of a sentiment I have too. I usually only build a deck when that synergy I so crave *is* part of the utility I need. Tribal deck? I’m running some tribal-based card draw and boardwipes. Artifacts? Mana rocks, need I say more? But yes, sadly not every strategy allows for this, so personally when I build a deck who’s synergy doesn’t help with the “vegetables” I should have in a deck, I usually suck it up and call the deck janky, because otherwise I make something in cookie cutter fashion, and I want to avoid that in commander. It really isn’t that bad though, because all levels of play are pretty good, plus you never know if your deck gets proper support printed in the future. That’s my take, anyways.
duuuuuuude.
Thank you!
I've been playing mtg for about 3 years now and I am...average. But I've been trying to understand the math behind it for a while and no videos seems explain it. You've done a great job. Thank you! I now...semi understand what I'm doing 😂
The trap I fall into is that my opening hand only has 2 mana, but I have a Sol Ring or Signet, so I keep the hand. Then I miss my turn 3 land drop and maybe even 4 and 5. Game over.😢
Now I think that fetches are only good in 3+ color decks, because cutting the number of lands during game makes chance of landdrop less
Anyone will talk about the 6 pips in the back of the cards?
This video is indeed good info for the normal commder deck but since commander is very diverse format this won't work with every deck. Like my deck is more than fine with 30 lands (I often actually end up flooding) and the critical turn things doesn't really work since my deck has a lot of cards on the more expensive side but I'm not planning to hard cast them
He says your critical turn is when you start to do synergistic things in your deck. So if that's cheating out big spells, it would just be what turn is that and how much mana will it require
@@mrstizzle9049 I meant the part about the average mana curve
I still disagree in most circumstances. If I play a ramp spell on turn 2 and 3, but then I miss my 6th land drop and those ramp spells are not 'just lands I had to pay mana for' because I got to use them and be ahead of the curve for a period of time, too.
When the 'lose case' for running less lands and more rocks is '6 mana on turn 4, 5 and 6' and the 'lose case' for running too many lands is 4,5,6 mana but 3 dead cards in my hand...
I'd rather have the chance for explosiveness and higher card quality, but miss a land drop sometimes in the mid-late game than hit all my land drops, but be slower or flood more frequently.
I am interested to see your take including card draw, but i think it's key here. I also often find low cost card draw to be controversial, surprisingly
Im building a reanimator deck and im having issues determining the correct amount of lands and ramp. I believe reaniamtor is a very unique deck in the sense that 1) the average mana cost is not "real" cause it considers the cost of several fatties you dont wanna ever cast 2) it loots significantly so it sees more cards than the average deck....anyone can help?
Look at the deck w/o reanimate on targets in versus with them in then take the average. That’s what you should be basing your counts on. You won’t always need to hard cast reanimated targets but you need the ability to eventually
@@CommanderMechanic i just calculated the average and the average mana value without lands is 1.9 so lets say its 2 to be on the safe side. So my critical turn is 4 so I wanna ramp between turns 1-2 so I can double spell on turn 3. Correct?
Another question regarding the number of lands: im running 35 but because this deck loots so much would you suggest going to 34?
My rule of thumb is 38 lands and 10 or more ramp - I basically want half the deck to be mana
Can I ask how much ramp/lands for a 9 commander cost in mono green? I’m running mana vault , crypt, mox opal as well
if you're running fast mana you should be well on your way, but I wouldn't stop short of 38 lands. In green you can run all the best land ramp too - but if your commander is your core game plan you need to make sure you get there as fast as possible.
I can't really argue here lol. Like the narrator in Darkest Dungeon says--- "Overconfidence is a slow and insidious killer."
I don't usually play many, but I tend to run specific rocks, some of which are sacrificed for deck-thinning, be it for draw or land tutoring, and Sol Ring is one of those more-bang-for-your-buck rocks, so I can supplement my addiction to jank strategies.
I think of it like I'm a reckless motorcycle stunt driver. I'm here for a good time, not a long time, but I do supplement my brews with about 6 to 8 big mana value bombs, which can include some boardwipes and ways to capitalize on them.
I have definitely played for goober-town levels of greed and fun interactions, like when (in my Lulu//Veteran Soldier vehicles brew) I run The Weatherlight, Board the Weatherlight, Bennie Bracks, Sram, Ellyn Harbreeze, Skullclamp, and other fun bits of repeatable draw, ramp, and synergy.
I like playing mind-games with my opponents, and I'll build to let my cards do the bamboozling for me. I enjoy being the class clown at the table.
I have a tendency to run a lower land count, but my decks tend to cover that. Raggadragga running 33 lands but 25 mana dorks has been fine. Malcolm/Kediss running about 35 lands but producing 3+ treasures a turn, also fine. Brewing a landfall deck tho, and planning 40ish lands
I'll sub two rocks for one land only if the deck has artifact synergy. Only at the 2:1 ratio.
Ok so if i wanna play 5 mana commander on turn 4, i need 10 ramps spells, under 4 mana. And if i want the commander on turn 3, i need 20 ramps. Is that right?
and/or the average mana value or your rocks has to come down, yes.
You can't play less lands with low colors, but you have to play more lands in multicolored decks)
I run 36 or 37 lands + 8 rock/ramp cards. And my deck is high mana cost, but I haven't been having mana issues since most of my cards hit big. My commander (Kaalia) is low cmc but everything else is chonky.
it also helps that your commander cheats cards into play so you typically don't have to cast them! >_
@@CommanderMechanic Of course. But she often dies before I get to attack unless I got haste on the same turn. But if she stays, that's 2 big drops per turn.
I know I'm way late to this video but is running tons of mana rocks inherently wrong? I have a Ur Dragon deck with about 34 lands and a ton of those dragon specific rocks plus the usual rocks you most commonly see as well as a diamond lotus and chromatic Lantern.
34 lands?!
@@CommanderMechanic 35*
For rocks I have Arcane Signet, Carnelian Orb of Dragonkind, Chromatic Lantern,Commander Sphere, Dragon Hoard, Everflowing Chalice, Glittering Stockpile, Jade Orb of Dragonkind, Jeweled Lotus, Lapis Orb of Dragonkind Manalith, Orb of Dragonkind and Sol Ring. I also have Rivaz of the Claw which gives me mana. The deck also contains many ways to cheat things out such as Tamiyo's Journal, Dragon Arch, several of the Planeswalkers, Maelstrom Nexus, Sunbird Invocation and even Ur Dragon himself. Plus some enchantment that make me more mana like Bounty of Luxa combined with all the treasures I make. Plus all my token generation allows me to establish a strong board state early on.
@@tylertesla3678
What is your average mana value, and how many dragons are affected by urdragons discount?
This is an instant favorite
I only play 30 lands cause of the deck I play I play meren combo and my mana curve is low it also seems to work pretty well for my deck cause I win consistently
How do you determine how much mana you NEED to be ahead by on which turn? For example, the latest deck I built has an average mana cost of 3.3. By your formula my critical turn is the turn I can generate 6 plus mana, which theoretically is turn 6. Do I need to scale ramp/lands to be at the critical turn on turn 5? Turn 4? That's the determination I don't understand (to simplify, I have 39 lands 37 excluding MDFCs and 7 ramp/rock spells)
that's up to you to determine based on the cards in your deck, your commander, and what your strategy is. I cover critical turns a bit more in last week's video about lands!
That depends on the powerlevel you need to achieve. Do you want to cast a 6 cmc commander on turn 3? Or is it ok to cast him on turn 5? Is your commander the engine of the deck and expensive ala Brudiclad? Or is he how you win ala Thromok? Is casting your 4 cmc commander on turn 3 ok? Or is the table too quick and you need to be faster?
That’s how you know what your critical turns are.
Why subtract when you can add.
i run arpund 12-15 ramp spells and 33-35 lands. that has been my sweet spot
I am similar, often with another 3-5 cards that aren't necessarily traditional early ramp spells, but do help with mana production, like crucible of worlds or Oracle of mul daya for example.
0 mana rocks are mostly equal to land, in a low cmc deck rocks do allow you to play 30 or less lands but it is really about cmc and top end.
However is this super important for a casual deck? I tend to worry about hitting my land drops (35-37ish land) along side a handful of rocks (8-12) to accellerate my gameplan in casual, if my ave cmc is 3-4 this is normally fine.
Meh. In causal edh I guess this makes sense. But for competitive all that matters is how much Mana can you produce on turn 1 or 2. Most competitive decks can tap for 4-6 Mana on turn 2 on aversge with 28-32 lands
i specifically say as much in the video
I'm here for the Kitties, and the content.
I never play less than 38 lands in Commander. No exceptions.
I usually run 36. Thinking I might add another one or two to my decks. Though I definitely see some exceptions like elves and slivers. How did 38 do?
@@stevo8908 38 with several mana rocks works great. I wind up running 39 lands in a lot of my decks. It just depends on how many mana rocks you feel like you need. I also usually add black to most of my commander decks because tutors are so important in the format.
I got my own lil formula
1 color deck: 33-35 lands
2 color deck: 34-36 lands
3 color: 35-37
4 color: 36-38
5 color: 37-39
Ramp ranges anywhere from 6-18, it's highly dependent on the decks CMC, commanders CMC, and what the purpose of the deck is. (My yuriko deck has 34 land and 6 ramp, cause the CMC is super low and operates fine at 4 mana)
I'll go outside my land count depending on the purpose of the deck aswell, but that's rare. Landfall is a good example or if my CMC is super low.
Theres three pop ups in the video to subscribe, two before it's even halfway done! I liked the content of the video, but that's just obnoxious. Yes, I know I can subscribe and like.
But did you?
@@CommanderMechanic Don't worry, I clicked the buttons twice for the first two!
In all seriousness, though, I left a like but didn't subscribble. I enjoyed the video, but I probably wouldn't look at new uploads, and I'd rather be an active subscriber.
The 2 rules my group like to break in Commander are having more than 100 card decks and not playing with lands that aren't for utility. Manabases are among the most expensive parts of deck building. If you eliminate that it allows you to put all the cards you actually want in your deck that do something. Lands don't do anything really. In Landless you draw 2 less cards and discard at 9 instead of eight since you aren't making land drops every turn. This provides every Deck with more gas, no flooding, no mana screws, and you simply use a die for the mana color of your choice when you would make a land drop. You can still ramp and track everything normally. We've been doing this for a few years now and that is exclusively how we build decks at this point. It's so much more fun :)
i feel like 30 lands is fine with decks that have extremely low cmv.
yes, you should check out my video dedicated to lands - on the channel from just last week
I could not pay attention, because i got distracted by the card backs shown in this video. What is that?
That is the legally distinct, content usable card back image that must be used
I like to start with 14 ramp pieces or 14 of any effect I want to see in my opening hand because that's a 1/7 chance. I like to start with 40 lands in any deck but have gone a little higher in green. People tell me that's high, but I don't think so, a lot of really good lands enter tapped and you can't count on them, some of them have effects you'd rather use instead of its land side, and fetch lands don't add mana so they are also not really lands, and colorless lands often bring problems. So 40 isn't all that high if you properly assume these cards aren't helping you get your gameplan online. Also, realistically I want to play a land for every turn of the 10/12 turns of the game. I do think ramp is over rated though and not every deck needs to go a turn or two faster. The card slots you use for ramp are often better used for more threats rather than better threats in a proactive aggro deck, more card draw and interaction in control decks, or more tutors and higher variance tools in combo decks. I like ramping out for decks where most of my cards land on a certain spot on the curve or in decks with powerful commanders that are going to be targeted down. Other than that, more basics and redundant game pieces are the way I like to go. Related to the point in this video, I see players treat draw spells the way they treat ramp, thinking they can cut lands to play a 2mana draw spell, but the argument against that is even dodgier that a mana rock; instead of playing a 0 mana add 1 mana using 1 card slot, you're paying 2 mana to 'maybe' play a land across 2 or 3 card slots, and the 'maybe' caveat makes it strictly worse than a mana rock. When designing a ramp package, I like the suggestion to consider why you're ramping. Sometimes what you're looking for is to go from 5 to 10 mana and you might consider a mana dounbler over a signet. Or 4 to 7 where you might want a suite or 14 signet style ramp slots and 8 thran dynamo style ramp pieces. Or maybe its really about casting more 2 mana spells more often, in which case your ramp package should probably be cost reduction cards and ramp pieces you can trade to draw a card later. This is a great topic, thanks for putting it out there
I'm not convinced that playing fast and on curve is actually a good thing, outside of cedh or a very tuned deck
If you're not able to close the game right away you're just putting a target on your back and getting focused
But who actually says "ramp spells are *better* than lands"? Ramp spells GET you lands, that's why they're often preferable to mana rocks.
you would be SHOCKED at how many players think this way
I run 30 lands, average cmc is 1.8. Combo heavy, mana crypt, mox amber, talismans signets. I honestly dont care about lands at all in that deck. Even if i fall behind bad. Everything is still castable and i probably have the game in the bag by turn 5
OK bro. Play your 40 lands 20 rocks deck.
Mana generation is mana generation. Card advantage is card advantage.
Lands and rocks don't win on their own spells abilities and creatures do.
The player who spends the most mana generally wins not the player who plays the most lands.
The question then is how to spend the most on relevant spells.
Assuming card draw is equal in your scenario you average 4 land hand with at least 1 rock,
So 2 spells or creatures in hand.
You may be less mana screwed overall but this is the recipe to run out of gas in more games than not.
You may have optimized the mana but I bet you'd win less games overall using this kinda strategy
Strong take.
Here for the kitties! 🐱
arbor elf...learn it, love it.
can somebody tell me what game is this?
Yugioh
soccer
thos checks out.
who?
turn 6 most of the games are already over, I still rather have rocks/ramps/dorks with low cost instead of more lands
i'm sorry i lost interest halfway through the video. you don't mention fetch lands and why people don't run Evolving Wilds/Terramorphic Expanse and would maybe run Fabled Passage but would run Prismatic Vista or any of the well known "fetch lands" they get you "ramp" and one less potential "dead draw".
"deck thinning" as people call it, of the magnitude of a fetch or two or evolving wilds, makes no appreciable impact on probability as you still run the same probability of drawing any of those specific lands as you do any card in your library.
Next week's video is card draw, which may hold your interest.
Personally I both agree and disagree. There's a balance between the two. If ramp didn't at least kind of replace lands I wouldn't be able to win a game without having any lands in play but I can and I have.
I love that people run low lands and rely on artifact mana ramps so their deck gets crippled against my land/artifact destruction deck.
dooo youuuu????
10? Laughs in 22 ramp/mana rocks/ treasure token makers each attack
And 34 lands 💪
You absolutely can cut lands my cedh deck runs 26 lands and its the most consistent deck I own.
..... It isn't an excuse for running less lands. No that's wrong. Heavy disagree in cedh deck listsm
Hmm I wonder what the critical turn for a cEDH deck with an average mana value of 1 is 🤔
you act ike eveyoe has a 200 dollar mana crypt...thats adorable