Are Structured Products Good Investments?
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 19 ก.ย. 2024
- Structured notes are complex investment products with returns linked to an underlying asset. They are often marketed based on high coupon yields, downside protection, or some combination.
The payoffs of structured notes can seem like a free lunch, but banks are not selling them to you because they’re your friend. When you’re having dinner with lions you have to make sure you’re at the table, not on the menu.
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That's the most academically structured synonym of "it's a scam" I've ever seen.
Not a scam. Just "buyer beware"
Thats why academiciain should keep their know how restricted to white papers only. Heavily used in industry
Yeah buddy, everything you don’t understand is a scam
Ben you keep making me afraid of free lunches, I’m afraid to go to my school’s cafeteria.
That's paid with tax dollars
There is a line item for payment of the cafeteria lunch on your payroll slip.
At a time of cyrpto bros and "income investors", Ben Felix is the hero we all need.
"If you're going to dinner with lions, you need to make sure you're at the table and not on the menu". I like this saying!
Here in Brazil these Structuted Notes are called 'COEs' (Certificado de Operações Estruturadas). These were sold like candies 2-3 years ago as they were promoted by most "Financial Influencers" some of them have millions of followers.
It would be interesting to know how well my comments in the video apply to the products in Brazil. I did not see any research focused there.
I'll be surprised if the results from COEs down here in Brazil would present any significant difference from the studies you've shown from othet markets. It's the same flim flam, downside protection, yada yada. In a country where the basic interest rate you can get from government bonds is 13,25% per anum, it's a steal for the brokers. They sell the average joe an option spread on some stock, cash the interest, and limit the upside (it's never unlimited). I tried to warn more than one friend of mine about it, but it's hard to make people listen.
It's basically a call and a a t-bill. They say, you invest R$100 and you won't lose R$100, but if the S&P 500 or whatever goes up, you make a bit of money. There are huge fees and the personal advisors (particularly those associated with XP Inc.) have significant incentives to sell them.
I think these structures wouldn't be possible in the developed world due to ZIRP, but I wouldn't be surprised if they were importing these by now.
(The scam, obviously, is that you would make 25% risk free if you were to just leave in cash)
Complex financial instruments prove that it is not in fact always better to be safe than sorry. Sometimes a hedge against downside risk is just paying someone else to make you paranoid.
I like that. Paying someone else to make you paranoid.
It also shows that more complex doesn't always mean better (higher expected return).
@@simonp6339 That too!
@@simonp6339in finance, I believe that more complex is pretty much always worse.
Such great content Ben. The complexity of this financial product is intentionally designed. It is to disguise the mean expected returns from inexperienced investors.
Raise awareness and keep raising financial literacy!
I agree with your interpretation. These things are generally terrible for investors, yet so many investors find them attractive.
You're absolutely right. Some financial products, particularly complex ones, can be intentionally designed to appear more sophisticated than they actually are. This complexity can indeed obscure the true nature of the product and its underlying risks, potentially leading inexperienced investors astray. Raising awareness about the importance of financial literacy is crucial in today's complex financial landscape. Empowering individuals with the knowledge and skills to understand various financial products and investments can help them make informed decisions that align with their goals and risk tolerance. By promoting financial literacy, we can work towards creating a more informed and responsible investor base. This not only safeguards individuals from falling into potentially risky investments but also contributes to a more transparent and trustworthy financial environment overall. Your call to keep raising financial literacy is essential, as it not only protects individuals from potential pitfalls but also fosters a healthier and more resilient financial ecosystem.
I agree! The content by Ben is excellent. The intentional complexity of certain financial products can indeed obscure the true expected returns, which is why raising awareness and promoting financial literacy are crucial endeavors. 📚💰🌟
Your insights are spot on, Ben! It's clear that the intricate nature of this financial product serves the purpose of camouflaging the true expected returns, especially for those new to investing.
On a lighter note, if you were to simplify one aspect of this complex financial product to make it more understandable for the general public, what would it be?
Fantastic content, Ben! Your explanation of the intentional complexity behind this financial product is eye-opening. 🌟 Now, here's a fun twist - if you could simplify a complex financial concept into an analogy that everyone could understand, what would it be? Your commitment to raising awareness and financial literacy is truly inspiring! 🚀
Thanks Ben! (That you cite these studies bolsters my faith in the aspiration of education and institutions working to deliver it. Thank you for the work you do sir! You exude value.)
Investment complexity always correlates to higher seller commission and recurring fees. Ben Felix is the man !!!
I have learned alot since I've started actively investing and doing alot of reading 📚. Ben's channel has aided me in developing, and grasping, the concepts, technical language used in finance. He uses facts and statistical analysis to convey his messages. My take on this ( KEEP IT SIMPLE) it is his use of financial vanacular, that gives investing a great deal of confusion. If you don't understand how an investment vehicle works, leave it alone for that moment in time. Do your own research until one can better understand it, what he is really saying is the statistical and technical analysis of structured notes are not in your favor depending on how they are structured. I can see why people can feel lost and confused, if not frightened to start investing. My suggestion to you ben is to use simple language to help others understand, so what you can speak on financial complexities, that's not impressive. If one doesn't understand a particular investment leave it alone end of story. (KEEP IT SIMPLE)
General rule: If someone wants to sell you something, they are making money off your buying.
Exactly. Lions inviting you to dinner.
Lol. I always get a kick out of Ben laughing at his own jokes. 😁 Also love the dining with lions analogy and making sure you're at the side of a table and not on the platter.
Thanks for the informative video! I recently met an independant advisor who advised me to expand my ETF portfolio to include structured notes. Honestly i couldnt understand anything, and that alone signaled to me that its better to opt-out.
I just invest (passively) in products i understand ✌🏼
Hi Ben - totally agree with your thoughts on this. I also think the same applies to a lot of so-called life insurance products that include an investment payoff. The investment offering is usually little more than a passive investment, just with huge relative fees and lack of transparency. So much so, I’m surprise regulators allow the selling of investment linked life assurance products.
Hi Ben, great video!
Would love to see content on:
-margin vs leveraged vs unleveraged index investments
-Teaching kids about money
Thanks!
Hey Ben! I have a video suggestion for you.
Can you talk about the idea of having a part of your portfolio dedicated to emergencies? About what assets make sense including in it and how large should it be.
This could be sized very differently based on whether a person lives in a country with free/cheap healthcare vs somewhere like the USA. Also dependent on what protection you have if you lose your job, etc.
Love your videos btw
Ah yes, my fortnightly dose of "this financial instrument is stupid, just buy ETFs". Lovely.
Please more videos.
You’re great to listen to.
We would all love to hear more about common index funds, dividend investments, and REITs. Please give us the views on the current market
One obvious question is, if these products are so bad, why is there still a market for them? I don't think the average retail investor even knows about structured products. So who's actually buying them? I don't think institutions would buy them either, since they know better.
Thanks a lot, Ben. You saved me from investing? 30% of my retirement funds into this trash. 🙏 Bless you.
Great starts and explanation. hope to see more detail or examples of structures notes and how the 🦁 eats. E.g BMO has structured notes which guarantees principles. My guess is the guarantee part attracts these investors. Hope to see more thoughts from you.
In Switzerland I received quite a bit of adds for these products.
The fact that they spend money to advertise them to retail investors alone says everything.
Never buy a financial product that you don't understand. That's one reason why a portfolio of index funds is the best approach.
I am not sure what is difficult to understand regarding the risk? The downsize protection is explained really well at structured notes documents (offered by Canadian banks) that I have seen lately. Typically, the principal is guaranteed as long as at the end of the term the decline is above certain level (20-50%).
Went to a CIBC appt to accompany my parents w/ an Investment Advisor for Gundy? and he had all these printouts and graphs and breezed through Structured Notes and other notes and all of these things I had never heard of before. I would say myself and my parents are not super financially literate, but my dad was entranced w/ his presentation. The guy never asked about my parents' financial goals and never asked about risk tolerance or anything else I would think is relevant. Anyway I'm going to follow up with my parents bc we weren't able to see this at that moment.
What is the expected return of an immediate annuity? Comparing structured notes vs annuities is perhaps the comparison most relevant to individual investors.
Thanks Ben for saving me time and money 💰 providing clear guidance to avoid structured notes
Excellent videos Ben it would be nice for you to do a video on what to look for how to determine which trade brokerage firm one should go with. i.e. costs, service, charts etc.
Hi Ben! This new hair tattoo looks amazing!💟
This suggests a joke: What's the difference between spending money on a structured note and spending money at the casino, since they are both negative expected value? Answer: The casino gives you free drinks.
Doesn’t the bank give you free iPads or something?
Fantastic video. Would you ever do a video on alternative asset management companies (like Blackstone, KKR, Brookfield)? I understand that could be a conflict of interest with your work, so it’s fair if not.
Thank you again for your continued wonderful content. This is yet another reminder for rational skepticism
Thanks! This video covers private equity.
The Private Equity Pitch
th-cam.com/video/Ik169Fd_G1E/w-d-xo.html
Can you please do a video on buffered annuity products next? And please do one specifically on managed futures regarding Alts.
Spot on ! I just released a video on the same topic on my channel, in french, and shared the same knowledge. I also based my video on a study from the french market authority that analysed 6200 products offered on the french market between 2001 and 2018 and coming to the same conclusions as all the studies you mentionned in your video. Buying a structured product is just buying expensive useless complexity.
I guess I'm not surprised that loss aversion bias can be exploited to this extent for profit. It's a powerful bias.
Great Videos ben,my advisor is using them in my portfolio . Do you have any videos on fixed indexed annuities or annuities in general I didn’t see any in the video playlist. Thank you.
Para você que está procurando o comentário brasileiro 🇧🇷, sim, ele está falando de COE. E, sim, melhor ficar longe.
Very informative video. May I suggest a topic for you to discuss? Recently there seem to be a lot of exotic ETF's that make use of derivatives in various ways to achieve a high distribution rate - QYLD, EVOL, JEPI and the like. They seem to have a lot of characteristics of structured notes - They're complicated, they rely on investor ignorance and they promise high, though unguaranteed, returns. I think they're capitalizing in investor reach for yield. But a more detailed analysis on your part would be much appreciated.
Thanks! I did look at covered calls in a recent video:
Covered Call ETFs
th-cam.com/video/YMLVdY8y8vM/w-d-xo.html
Those are junk stocks. Watch money guy now he goes in depth about them!!
Covered calls lol 😂
Hey Ben, I would really appreciate it if you did a video on Annuities at some point. I know it's a little off the beaten path but I'd really love to hear your thoughts. Especially in regards to Index Annuities and relevant Riders.
That is a topic that I plan to cover. Not sure I will get into index annuities and riders, but definitely the general concept.
the way I look at it: if they are aggressively trying to move this product via heavy advertising and offers for fancy steak dinners where they lock the doors to make their sales pitch, it's a bad deal. If the product they're trying to sell was such a hot bargain to begin with then there would already be people beating down their door to get a piece of that action.
There's something about offering high yields that makes people go crazy. Just like in case of dividends, doesn't matter that you are getting paid out of your own money to some it still sounds like "free" income.
This comment reminds me to do a video on participating whole life insurance.
@@BenFelixCSI Btw, thanks for great content, as usual.
Thanks for watching and commenting!
Don’t fall
For the dividend trap stock will always go down. Just look bns or bce 6/7% dividend look how much it fell n the last yr
This is interesting. As an advisor who is RIA only (no BD, no selling commissions) I've always viewed structured notes as (especially buffered total return notes) as bond and annuity alternatives for skitish investors. While I generally agree with your wisdom on investing in stocks, some investors just don't have the stomach for the volatility.
While other advisors out there would sell them annuities or IUL products weve tended toward introducing structured notes as more flexible, lower fee, more liquid and better yielding alternative to annuities and IUL's while fully educating clients on how they work and sticking to less complex more "vanilla" structured products.
This seems to be a win for my clients in that boat because they're achieving better returns as a result, not relative to stocks, but relative to what they would otherwise be willing to do with the cash.
What's your take?
I do think that there is a behavioural case for notes.
My opinion is that it is the role of the advisor to educate their client to a position of confidence for good decision making, but I understand that some clients just won’t get there.
An appropriate asset allocation might make more sense in that case. 40/60 stocks/bonds for example. And if even seeing the volatility of the individual components is too much, they can abstract it away with a fixed allocation fund like VSCGX.
Not gonna lie - I came here looking for tips and tricks for Cornell Note taking for school. What a rabbit hole I've found!
Sorry for the extremely niche click bait 😂. Glad to have you here!
Babe wake up, new Ben Felix is out.
Babe goes right back to sleep.
This is an extremely inaccurate description . But a great POV . I welcome ppl to learn the difference when making videos like this .
How do you feel about defined outcome or buffered ETFs?
Funny how in Germany standardized futures and options trading is restricted to the general public but structured notes are all tradable by two simple clicks...
Commenting for engagement; I dont even need to watch the video to know Ben Felix comes with the factual heat.
Can’t wait for your FelixCoin mint bro (/joking)
always love your videos - you got anything on direct index investing products?
Thanks to eu priip regulation we can get structured notes, but are not allowed to invest in us etfs.
Why do i never hear people talk about the msci factor etf’s? Seems nothing wrong with them
This dude's videos are nothing but jargon.
It’s ok to learn new words now and then.
Unfortunately an advisor sold me some notes at the beginning of the year...i was hesitant and didn't understand it but he really convinced me that it was a great product to have. Is there any way for me to get out of it...are there penalties? It's a long term note/investment unfortunately :(
Could you make a video on debt, QE, inflation and what problems we might experience in the future?
Yes. I have a video on what causes inflation kicking around in my head.
Great work👌👌
Thank you. You just persuaded my wife for me lol
I can't imagine a banker selling structured notes is going to want to see this video! Talk about cold water in the face! When can we get some legislation in Canada that sets up a class of investment advisor with a fiduciary duty to their clients?
The Portfolio Manager registration category is close, but I don’t think a fiduciary standard solves everything. There needs to be a higher bar on education for advisors, and consumers need to be somewhat informed.
In a rising market better to buy an index. The last few years I have made more money with these.
Hi Ben, what do you think about using 50% FDIC protected structured growth note and 50% CDs? This could protect more against inflation and be a more diversified approach to an FDIC protected portfolio. Just an example of how I see a use case here. Thank you!
If it fits for the specific payoffs that you want I guess that’s ok, but it’s not clear to me why a portfolio needs to be fully FDIC protected. I get why you want your deposits insured, but investments don’t usually have the same bank-specific risk as deposits.
@@BenFelixCSI Agreed. This is just an example. Assuming a higher level risk, equivalent to an investment grade bond portfolio, an investor could use 70% bonds and 30% issuer protected growth notes to gain exposure to both bonds and stocks at a risk level comparable to bonds only. This could make sense given a shorter time horizon for example. Thanks!
Isn't this argument also applicable to options?
Some of it applies to options. The biggest issue with structured notes is the over pricing, not the option-like behaviour. That aside notes would not be so bad. Retail options trading can sometimes be just as expensive.
I guess I haven't been to a Canadian bank in ages... I just thought they sold 2.5% MER mutual funds. I haven't come across structured notes.
It's not just Canada and it's not just banks. The first I heard of structured notes was in the context of cryptocurrency. So that's two strikes against.
I assume in Canada they are called market linked GICs. Correct me if I am wrong.
Another informative video! Thank you Ben
Structured notes can serve specific needs/payoff for sophisticated investors. For the retail investors, it is best to avoid. Banks will not want to sell structured products to retail investors due to strict regulations these days.
Spent my whole career dealing bonds - plain vanilla and structured. Never buy them. As Warren Buffet says - if you don't understand it you don't buy it.
Does that mean that it would Be a good Idea to Bet against These horrible securities?
I don’t think that would be easy to.
@@BenFelixCSI because of illiqudity, or aren't they traded on Public Exchanges?
They do not tend to be liquid and are not traded on exchanges.
@@BenFelixCSI then I understand what you mean...
I guess the only reason to Bet against Them then is by being one of the lions oneself...
By the way, thanks for taking the time to answer my questions.
Wait, what's Twitter? 😅😬
😂 “X”
𝕏 apparently... Can't figure out how to type it, so had to copy and paste 😂
thanks again
Can you make a video on A.I euphoria?
Yes. Good idea.
I sell market linked gics to clients. I'd rather put them in index funds, but many people don't want to take any risk, and just like the upside potential. When you're in a room with a client for an hour trying to educate them on investing, sometimes you just give up and accept that they're willing to accept worse returns in exchange for principal protection
I suppose some limited equity participation is better than none.
"Exploits their limited cognitive abilities" lmao the deep cut
Cognitive errors are normal! It’s not an insult.
😂 maybe I should have used different words. It’s probably my limited cognitive abilities to blame.
Hey Mr. Felix,
I am just commenting to ask about asset location for a US investor. My question is in regards to putting my full allocation of small cap value in my custodial Roth IRA vs, putting an even split across all accounts. I am just asking this because I want to make sure I am not overthinking this decision, or making the wrong one ( I have seen your video on asset location, but my question is does it apply to higher expected return as seats, especially since I am a 17 year old who will have higher taxes in the future)?
Thanks for all you do!
Joseph
Asset location is complex and too much to answer in a YT comment. You would need to model it based on your expected returns for the asset classes in your portfolio. Also keep in mind that small value will tend to be less tax efficient.
Ok, I hope you consider making a video in the future about assets location and factors. Finally, is there anyway you can consider making a video of what it is like being a portfolio manager (ie. day in the life if you will) as I am interested in the field.
Maybe. That doesn’t really fit with my usual content but I will consider it.
@@BenFelixCSI some channels have a “second channel” for the less polished/professional/in-theme content. Maybe there could be an alternative channel for the more miscellaneous and less tightly edited things?
@@michaeljamescollins6800 That's a good idea. I do have a podcast channel that is less polished and covers all sorts of stuff that I don't cover here. www.youtube.com/@rationalreminder
At the end of the day, bonds/notes are not complex. If there is something complex about them, don't buy them.
If you're engaging in business with a for-profit company, you're the profit.
Watching this at 0.75 speed is very good!
I thought this video was about how to take structured notes in college/university 😅😅😅
@Ben Felix
0:18 I need to write down that figure of speech...
[Mexicah intensifies]
Hey Ben. Were you once the narrator to How It's Made in a past life? Because you sure sound like it.
😂 no I have never narrated anything.
BEN SOUNDS MAD. HE SHOULD BE.
"limited cognitive abilities" :D
I love how Ben communicates the painful truth in a way that maybe such a person might not actually understand they're being offended.
All your fancy studies and sound arguments will never deter me from getting so much FOMO from predatory salespeople that I throw all my money away
😂
If investors stopped seeking financial advice that sells them what they WANT they would be better off. It’s unfortunate that selling investors what they NEED usually pays the financial advisor and financial institutions less commission. Integrity is rare in the financial world. It’s also unfortunate that confirmation bias is only human nature
So we can trust banks 🏦? My bank manager greets me with “hey buddy” 🤦🏼♂️
“I’m not your friend, buddy!”
return slightly below zero - ok.
So, it's a scam. Got it. Thanks Ben.
Lol...."This is the part when the lion eats you"....
"Structured notes appeal to investor biases that exploit their limited cognitive abilities.". Very nice way of saying "people are dumb, yo".
I should have chosen better words. Everyone has limited cognitive ability. It’s not supposed to be insulting.
@@BenFelixCSI Don't worry about it, Ben. You're doing everyone a service by protecting them from bad financial instruments. I wouldn't sweat the word choice too much.
Structured Products as indeed expensive in fees, but that doesnt mean they are always bad. As an informed investor, I ocassionally use them because they allow me to tap into OTC options that otherwise I wouldnt have access to. Also, sometimes my provider allows me to tweak some elements of the product such as the leverage on any leg, the strikes, etc, so I can decide my levels of risk within the product. I like to use them as hedges against other existing positions in my portfolio, so the OTC optionality becomes useful.
Ben, stating salomonically that structured products are bad because their engineer complexity preys on the investor's lack of knowledge is not fair nor accurately. If the investor is not educated, then ANY product outside of T-bills (including ETFs or coupon bonds) is inappropriate regardless of their fee structure.
As I said at the end of the video, I do not doubt that there are niche cases where these products make sense.
"Limited cognitive abilities"? Did he just call people who use those notes dumb? Lol I'll use that in an argument lol
I would like to see the comparison between buying and holding structured notes and what investors actually do, ie buy and sell single stocks and ETFs.
If you / your studies are comparing buying structured notes with some hypothetical ideal way of investing into low cost ETFs then yeah they wouldn’t make sense.
In the real world that’s not what investors, be they retail or institutional, are doing.
The general problem in this video is that it’s painting structured notes with a very large brush. Just like other instruments, they can be good or bad depending on how they’re designed, and they are not by design made to screw people. Structured notes do exactly what is stated on their termsheets. Saying that it’s hard to understand their risk reward is just plain wrong.
TLDR: there is more to gain not listening to finance TH-camrs than in avoiding structured notes
I like that point, but investor returns in asset allocation funds only underperform the funds themselves by about 50 bps annually. That is negligible compared to the costs of notes.
Sector funds have an investor return gap closer to the costs of notes, but that’s a weird benchmark.
A for the idea in this comment, but F for the evidence supporting it.
Financial obscurantism
This guy cares too much about theory and doesn’t really look at the notes in practice. In many cases, these products have a performance structure similar to short term annuities. If you want to get rid of the market risk, you must pay for someone(the bank) to take on that risk. The fact that you can get up to a 10% annualized return with 100% principal protection a great thing for retail investors, not a scam.
Banks love you 😍.
@@BenFelixCSI it’s all jokes until your S&P index funds are down 20% and all those who bought notes are getting back 100% of their money. Every product has its place, and your way is not the only way.
I do not doubt that you enjoy structured products. That does not make them good products. I do agree that they may have a place for some people.
@@BenFelixCSI I certainly wouldn’t purchase one, and I don’t think they are for most investors. However, I think it’s unfair that you are portraying them as some scheme the banks have to make money. These are very legitimate products (for the most part), and many investors have successfully used them to avoid risk or to protect their portfolios.
Investors feel that way, but they are typically paying a huge premium for the product. There are more effective ways to get a better outcome.
I have talked to a bunch of people who work or worked in banking, and they have universally agreed that these products are juicy money makers for banks.