I love this series! As a high school-educated working man with a passion for military & political history, I love your work and am very thankful that channels such as this exist for my continuing education on history.
Good for you, Jim. Great attitude. I sense that you bring true humility as part of your persona, which is terrific, but leave any sense of inferiority out in the cold, or heat, as it gets uncomfortably hot here in Arizona. The fact that you're here with us speaks loudly. Amen.
Great comment. I am in the same boat as you. I am a carpenter, and have never served. My grandfather was in the army in World War I. My father was in the Navy just after Korea. I have several uncles and cousins who have served. My fathers favorite uncle was on midway during World War II but I don’t know much about that. I am fascinated by World War II history and find videos like this interesting and enlightening.
@@frankvadnais3536I was a carpenter for ten years before I got my Ma in history. We like people like you three commenters; common people with an interest to learn. A rarity these days.
Bill's comment towards the end of the podcast is so on point and shows how history should be studied in relation to current events. Who's the sleeping giant now, is a perfect example 👌
Sadly I lost a two-volume bio of Yamamoto in a move years back (translated from the Japanese). He was a very colorful figure, there was really no one else like him in the Japanese military in this respect. Seth and Bill noted his wide public popularity and high profile; he was also famous in the Ginza, and in the gambling houses. He was probably what would be considered a gambling addict today. It was credibly claimed that he seriously considered resigning from the IJN and moving to the US to become a professional gambler at one point in his life. His travels in the US were extensive not just during his Harvard time but his later stint in the naval attache's office in Washington. As noted in the show, during these trips he saw the industrial and resource might of the US, and he was fairly awestruck by it all. At one point during his diplomatic assignment he traveled all the way to Mexico's Caribbean oil region (after seeing Texas's oil riches on the way). The Mexican foreign office advised the US embassy that there was a Japanese naval attache who lacked the funs to return to DC (he probably gambled the money away). The State Dept. fronted him the cash to get back to Washington. Not a great naval tactician, but a colorful one.
Knew he was considered a great poker player. The Pearl Harbor attack was a great gamble. so much could have gone wrong. I do agree that he had serious flaws as a naval tactician. He loved complicated plans and that was bad. Relying on surprise as much as he did will sooner or later destroy you and it did at Midway. He also refused to use his Battle Line when it could have really mattered; not so much at Guadalcanal- though he should have gone all in there as well; but at New Guinea. BUT he was so in love with the idea of the Decisive Battle that he never used enough force when it really mattered. Guadalcanal showed that; imagine if he had sent Nagato and Mutsu instead of battle cruisers. They were fast enough and had real armor belts. Not to mention 16" guns. Imagine if he had just sent Yamato. as good as Ching Lee and Washington was, that would have been seriously bad. Of course on Friday the 13th it would have wiped Callaghan and still been able to bombard Henderson field. Matter of fact send all three of his biggest Battleships to get it done. Henderson Field would have been a crater and the reinforcements and supplies would have landed safely. NOW in the end it would not have mattered because of pearl harbor but he could have bought so much time for the fortifications on the inner perimeter that it would have lengthened the war. I am shocked frankly that he did not read us correctly; even if the warning had been delivered on time the US people would still have been enraged about it all. but then the pearl harbor attack would not have been anywhere near as successful AND when you take the long view, why was attacking the old BBs so important? Only TWO of the US carriers were around to attack and we had three others ready to go and Hornet soon coming. Pearl Harbor really did not accomplish much as far as war fighting was concerned. we were already pretty weak in the Pacific.
@@johnhallett5846The problem with Nagato and Mutsu (and every other Japanese BB or BC save for the Kongos, and to some extent, Yamato and Musashi) was that they were too slow. They would have been just about fast enough to operate in the Med or the Atlantic, but they didn’t have the dine and dash speed of the Kongos or the ability to take hits like the Yamatos. They could only do about 24 1/2 knots at Guadalcanal. They didn’t have had the speed to race down the slot, bombard Henderson & get out before the run came up & the bombers came out to play. And like every other Japanese heavy, their AA suites were dreadful.
@@GrahamCStrouse Actually there are sources saying that they were capable of 26 knots. But still the Bombardment showed what could be done and that one was cut short. What I meant is they should have sent ALL the Kongos or upped the Ante with the Mutsu and Nagato. They could have made the dash at that speed. BOTTOM line is that Yamamoto by this time had decided this was the decisive battle but he did not act like it Sending a more powerful bombardment force would have quite likely both destroyed the USN cruiser force and then hit Henderson Field so bad that they could not have had flight operations until late in the day at best
So were civilians. I have a friend who as a young girl survived the Nazi bombing of Liverpool in which she whitnessed the death of childhood friends, and I had in-laws who survived in Hiroshima atomic bombing. In addition, the Nazis murdered members of both sides of my family, one great uncle in Holland and numerous cousins, uncles, and aunts in Estonia.
Very well made and very accurate. Therebarebtwo minor corrections. 1) Lanphere, Barbara and Mitchell were initially recommended for the MoH but had it reduced to Navy Cross by Halsey when Halsey found out the pilots talked to a reporter about the mission and broken code JN25. 2) pilot Hine was seen by a PBY near the Russell Islands trailing smoke. The PBY communicated with Hine who indicated he thought he could make it back to base. He didn't make it. See Jeffery Cox Dark Water Starry Sky and Dan Hampton Operation Vengeance
@@davidkoss1304 Halsey was not happy with Lamphier's tendency to tout his own horn and gave all the pilots a stern warning to maintain secrecy about missions due to the code breakers
This was an amazing operation done on such short notice. It was done with such precision without all the technology we take for granted today. As a USAF veteran, I take a touch of pride in both this and the Doolittle mission to Japan. In 2006, I was at the Doolittle Raider reunion at the USAF Museum in Dayton, OH. I got all 8 Raider autographs including Lt. Col Cole, Doolittle's copilot. Sadly, all are gone now. The men of both missions are heroes. Both did what many thought couldn't be done. Both at extreme range for the aircraft involved. Both missions did far greater harm to the Japanese than we had any right to expect. Neither were turning points in the war. Both had a much greater impact than the numbers of people involved. Keep up the good work. These videos should be standards for our kids to learn about WWII in the Pacific.
I'm never disappointed with your Podcasts. This particular one dives into depths that I've never seen discussed, such as the moral questions brought on by this mission, and just how high up the chain of command it had to go to get approval. Of course, it also includes the common misconceptions, personal thoughts and contributions of the people involved, and myths associated with this operation. As usual, it was very educational, entertaining, and insightful. Thanks guys!
Speaking of moral issues, the only use of the fruit of the Manhattan Project would be a fine part of the wrap up episodes of this war in the Pacific. It is good to know that the men involved with the punctuation that brought this chapter in the horror of man's relationship to one another were at least as concerned and ambivalent as all the Monday morning quarterbackers who have criticized the use of Fat Man and Little Boy to stop the Madness.
Incredibly accurate planning is a wonderful disguise for extraordinary luck. Often plagued by technological problems, the Japanese planning and scheduling seems to have been faultless and we lucked out by depending on that planning and scheduling. I have read that Yamamoto and Billy Mitchell used to play poker at the Naval Officers Club in Washington and that one of the favored topics of discussion was a hypothetical air attack on Pearl Harbor. However, not having been there to overhead, I can't swear to it.
If you're talking about the 1930's, I don't think Pearl Harbor was much of a thing at that time. Wasn't it only '39 or '40 when the U.S. Naval presence at Pearl was supplemented by moving assets from the West coast of the U.S. as a show of commitment to their Pacific holdings?
@@hurch1915 Actually talking about the 1920's. The curious thing about wars is that there are always some people with the foresight to understand how it is they will most likely happen. The trick is to then avoid them, but once the big ball starts rolling, there is usually no one that can stop it. Pearl Harbor was a wonderful harbor fully adequate for a large fleet. Anyone with half a brain would have had to admit it if confronted with the facts about the harbor. The Japanese, as well as the Americans, were well aware that any major war in future in the Pacific was going to be primarily fought by two major powers, and there for all intents and purposes, there were only two available. If the next war was to involve airplanes, as both Mitchell and Yamamoto certainly believed, then the best harbor in the middle of the Pacific was a logical point of discussion in terms of both harboring a fleet there and also logically thereafter, attacking it.
@@thomasjamison2050 I cant' argue with that. It's undeniable that these guys were "visionary", and indeed, most likely discussed the future roles of naval air power. I can easily imagine a discussion where air power might be used against an anchored fleet. The IJN had plans for just such an operation even prior to the infamous Taranto raid of November 1940.
Excellent story. I had no idea how time-fixed this thing was. I always assumed they had some time to look around and prepare. Some time margin. Yet they had mere minutes to pull this off. Astounding.
Seth & Bill: Thanks for dispelling the popular myths about Yamamoto, and especially for placing the entire affair in perspective. I've always been somewhat morally conflicted about the hit on Yamamoto. The observation that the Japanese wouldn't have been the least bit hesitant to take out any of the U.S. commanders is spot on. That's what happens in war. It sucks, but reality is what it is.
Once again; you two gentlemen have given us valuable insight on the shared humanity of INhumanity. WAR. As a Cold War submarine veteran; we saw Eastern Bloc ships as targets; never realizing that they were just as human as we were.
I try to comment every episode! This is the only channel I try and do so for because I appreciate every episode so very much. The operational genius those Lightning Pilots had was truly impressive! 1000 mile missions back in the day are more than stunning and to arrive on scene 1 minute early is just unbelievable. Thanks again guys and glad to see the youngster Bill back and excited to see what next week has in store! 🤟
Mission complete on this episode. Well done, gentlemen! I have to note a really good read on this subject, Lightning Strike by Donald Davis. A really fine portrayal of the American pilots and planners - Mitchell, Barber, Holmes, and Lanphier, among others. Simply incredible planning and meticulous execution. Literally. I look forward to every Tuesday. Can't wait until Leyte (I know, we have a long way to go yet). I imagine that will be at least four episodes. Keep up the great work. This series is all headed Library of Congress someday.
Seth and Bill, once again a great show. I seem to recollect there was some nasty backwash soon after the conclusion of the mission regarding violation of opsec, specifically the continued maintenance of the mission’s intentionally fabricated cover story. I can’t remember where I read about this, but it went into great detail about how days or weeks after the successful mission, certain participating pilots couldn’t keep their mouths shut off duty about the true target and foreknowledge of the Admiral’s itinerary. I understand these alleged alcohol-fueled violations of security eventually drew the ire Admiral Halsey and Admiral Nimitz. Supposedly there was talk of withdrawing proposed military decorations and possible punitive actions, e.g. non-judicial punishments, special courts martial, etc. I recall Capt. Lanphier was front and center in this sh*tstorm. Apparently the continued violations were fueled by Lanphier’s questionable shoot down claim. Supposedly it reached a point to where they thought the cover story was blown and it might have leaked by now to the Japanese military that we’d been reading their mail all along and presently still were reading their message traffic. You guys know anything about this stain on the mission as it relates to possible UCMJ violations and intentionally damaging our code breaking efforts?
Absolutely blown away- I have never found a podcast one day and then binged episode to episode non stop- to the level I have with yours! Both of you- and your guests- are amazing broadcasters and speakers. I love every minute of this! Thank you so much!
Seth and Bill, another fantastic episode. Every time, you guys add in all those awesome little details that we just_don't_get anywhere else. Incredible work! You guys are appreciated immensely.
Hi, I saw the Captain's new background, and I had to make my first comment to say, wow, that is an amazing shot! Thank you all for doing these podcasts, because, as has been said in previous episodes, we all need to remember the sacrifices, hardships, and lessons of WWII as they are poorly taught, at best, if at all anymore. especially the PTO side of the war. I really like the format, it is serious, but relaxed, formal yet informal, so to say. and and I always feel as if we are all friends sitting in the same place together discussing Naval History, so, a big Well Done! The Night the Giants Rode was the best overview of the 2nd Naval battle off Guadalcanal I have seen, Adm. Lee most definitely got the drop on Kirashima. I would have loved to have been on the radio net when he said " This is Ching Lee Stand clear we are coming through chop chop" or something close to that. That good old Kentucky Windage
Thanks again for another great video. I get notified every time you have a new video, since I have the All Bell selected, I don't want to miss a single episode.
Bill, as a former sub driver, your thoughts on Hunt for Red October and Crimson Tide. Great stuff, I would like to point out that the raid on Pearl Harbor was a brilliant plan and executed to perfection. Yamamoto was quite capable of planning other successful strikes using his knowledge of the US and his leadership abilities to accomplish that. Therefore he was a legitimate military target of high importance, just like any other command or control persons/places. The same goes for MacArthur being a legitimate target for the Japanese, of course, they might have chosen not to 🙂 My father fought with the 32nd.
I agree. Another great episode! But I must take issue with the depiction of the Yamamoto shoot down as an assassination. The Oxford dictionary (and common sense) defines assassination as "murder (an important person) in a surprise attack for political or religious reasons." Yamamoto was as ENEMY COMBATANT thus this was NOT as assassination.
I agree. I think Seth and Bill were a little hard on Yamamoto as a strategist. It is true that, after Pearl Harbor, he failed to commit overwhelming forces needed for various operations. However, he had no idea the extent to which Allied intel had compromised some of his strikes, with Midway being the biggest example of that. Four carriers seemed enough against an enemy he thought had two at the most and he had no reason to believe that the US would be positioned for an ambush of his forces. The strategy of Midway was to draw the US into a decisive battle, but a sub-text was to establish a base close to Hawaii that would require his enemies attention - something like a boxer's jab to keep his opponent at a distance. With his prediction that Japan would run wild for six months after Pearl Harbor before the the Allies would begin to turn the tide, Midway must have seemed like a fair play to him to buy Japan more time, if falling short of an overwhelming victory.
Just discovered this channel a couple days ago and it is fantastic: The best videos on WWII I have ever seen. Doug Canning was on of the pilots on this mission and was my middle school science teacher. I knew back then he was part of the mission but was too shy to ask him about it, even though I was a WWII aviation nut. One of my regrets was not talking to him about his experiences.
In the 70s I read about the conflicting claims between Barber and Lanphier and there was no settled result. That confused me. Didn't each plane have gun camera footage? Seth and Bill finally gave a logical answer to this question. Well done guys.
That celluloid film degraded quickly. Also, if you are pulling lead on a target it may not be in frame. The camera itself may not be aligned with the guns on an aircraft that has done some yanking and banking.
April 18th, an important date in the military history of this country. 18 April 1775 General Gage's Regulars begin preparing to march on Lexington and Concord. 18 April 1942, The Doolittle Raiders launch from the carrier HORNET for the raid on Japan. All of these briefs on the nitty gritty of WWII events and personalities are fabulous. BRAVO ZULU 💯🇺🇸🇺🇸🇺🇸🇺🇸👍MERICA'!!
Just an outstanding commentary to accompany some video I've never seen. Seth and Captain Toti, you are becoming downright professional. Your regular guests are really enjoying themselves, and are LEARNING from YOU both. Seeing you all evolve and meld is as engrossing as the content. We'll played, Men.
Great episode. Bill, I hope your feeling well and good luck in you’re new house. Awesome job Seth and Bill on this. Yamamoto was a fascinating person in many ways, good and bad.
I read the comments about how great you guys are. Every one of them is spot on. Such fine preparations. Thank you. I am learning so much I can't believe it.
Excellent. I read a book on Adm Yamamoto the detailed his career from about 1918 to 1940 and his advice not to war with the US. It addressed the changes that cornered him into the Pacific war. Excellent book, from the library in the 70s. I do not remember the title. Great presentation..... very much appreciate this series, and every episode.
Please know that I recognize my coming late to this discussion. Thank you, Captain Toti, for recognizing that China is the preeminent manufacturer these days. That was our strength in WW2, and it will be their strength in any upcoming military conflict. I have wondered how long it would take for that to be seen for what it is. Having visited China in depth twice, and having had a close relative work there more than once for several years each time, my perspective has matured into a berlief that it is time that we wake to their prodigious work ethic and to their innovation, especially in efficient, rapid, volume manufacturing. And we need to recognize that they bear a grudge against us for participating in militarily forcing trade upon them in the early to mid nineteenth century. They still have destroyed monuments dating back to that time, while we have let ourselves become ignorant of it at all levels and sectors of society.
There is nothing like listening in on a conversation between two intelligent people who like and respect one another on an interesting topic. Thanks, gentlemen.
I really love these podcast. I cannot get enough history about the Pacific War. Bill I really hope your move is successful. I hope I never have to move again. Also, WTH, Godzilla movie!!! I cannot see why you don't have this in your bio. Really you should be introduced as a naval Godzilla technical advisor.😂 Keep up the great work.
I am a Japanese aficionado of the Pacific War who enjoys watching these videos. I'd like to share an episode in the memoir by his son that defines the kind of person Admiral Yamamoto was. On the last day before moving to his new command as chief of the combined fleet, the admiral came home. Being ill, his wife was unable to come to the dinner table. Together with his children, Yamamoto carried the dinner table to his wife’s bedroom where they ate together. On the center of table was whole roasted red snapper (think Thanksgiving turkey). At the end of the meal no one had touched the fish. The family must have had premonitions. The next day when the son left home for school, Yamamoto for the first (and last time) saw his son off. This was the last time the son would see him. According to what I have read, the base Yamamoto was to inspect was to serve as the rear guards as Japan shrank its defense perimeter. Yamamoto knew the men at the base would be left behind. This was the reason for his risking the trip. Even though it was war, to me the whole course of events was tragic for a man who had opposed the War, but was a patriotic Naval Officer.
Another great episode! Wish you two were able to do more than one a week, but I understand you both pack this project into your otherwise full schedules. It is just so interesting to learn something new every week.
The idea you have left me to puzzle about relates to whether or not all the flyers involved knew the real purpose of the mission. If any of them had ended up in Japanese hands it would likely have blown the cover for our decoding efforts. Telling the flyers had the advantage of letting them know that it was vitally important that they get out of dodge right after the shoot down, so that's a plus. Were they also perhaps instructed to shoot themselves if they got shot down, or at least fight to the death to protect this secret? By the same token, a flyer captured alive who didn't know about the code side of the issue might well have been coerced under torture to confess to lie about the truth, and the net result could have been the same. It's an intriguing proposition and I am sure the best choice was to tell them all, which was a huge violation of the code 'need to know' restrictions.
This is very true. They were most definitely told of their target before they took off, by none other than ADM Mitscher. So the security risk was extremely significant. While an excellent work of decryption and practice, the slips made by senior commanders (Mitscher) and later the pilots themselves, almost blew our cover.
@@UnauthorizedHistoryPacificWar My take is that this was never a real risk IJN as a whole just couldn't bare the truth that their code was wide open in front of the enemy It would inevitably lead to the conclusion that the war was doomed, and the notion of Japan losing the war was not allowed to be touched. So the only option was to pretend the problem never existed 😢😢
What a pleasant surprise! I have exactly 1 hour and 30 minutes left on my shift and needed something (interesting) to keep my mind occupied. This should do just fine 😎
New subscriber here, liked & subscribed (twice stated now), great content! You two have great chemistry and do an amazing job bringing history to the present! 🍻
You guys are doing an amazing job! When I see y’all the 2 words that come to mind are knowledge and respect. Love the channel and wish you both the very best.
Admiral Yamamoto was a captive of his culture. IJN with or without him, the IJN habitually relied on overly complicated plans. The Admiral while looking for the Kantai Kessen, when it presented he didn't see it, Guadalcanal. Japan habitually conserved their forces for the much the war until the Sho plan. This was probably a carryover from Yamamoto, he new they could not replace their ships as quickly. So they lost the war.
This is such an excellent series! I finally got caught up after discovering you guys a couple of months ago. I have learned so much. Your coverage of Savo Island was especially meaningful as my Great Uncle Charlie survived the sinking of the Chicago, and went on the finish the war on the same ship as his brother (my grandfather). Bill, your background is outstanding. Jon will most likely strip his wallpaper when he sees it😂 Congrats on your move.
I have always been interested in Japanese culture, and cult of personality that surrounded Admiral Yamamoto during his life was pretty astounding for that period of time. Beginning in the mid 1920's, the militarist factions had really whipped up an anti-western frenzy to drag the Japanese people back from the influences of the Western culture of the Roaring Twenties. It became anathema for the Japanese to show any Western characteristics, in dress, entertainment, movies and the like. Women were required at some points to drop Western dress and dress in the more traditional kimono. And it is significant because there weren't many people in Japan who were aware of and enjoyed Western culture like Yamamoto did, which I'm sure that the firebrands in the Japanese Army did not like at all. Add to that Yamamoto's point that war with the United States could only be won with a quick lightning strike to demoralize the "weak and cowardly" Americans into a peace favorable to Japan's aims. These firebrands were wrong in SO many ways, as we will see. But on a personal level, Yamamoto was, as you said, a legendary person to the Japanese people. He was very involved in the geisha culture and was considered and honored patron, to the point of different geisha house vying for his favor. When he went to get a manicure, his nickname was "80 sen", because a manicure price was 100 sen. But Yamamoto had lost two fingers at Tsushima and only had 8 fingers. There have been a lot of misconceptions about the geisha culture over the years. Traditional geishas were primarily entertainers and provided an area of comfort and repose for their clients. They played traditional Japanese instruments like the Koto (a horizontal harp), Shamisen (a three-stringed instrument that is sometimes compared in the West to a banjo) and the Shakuhachi (a wooden flute), and performed Traditional Japanese dances, such as the Shi (fan) and Ken (sword). They were experts in the Japanese tea ceremonies and other similar things. They also played games of chance, such as Shogi, Go and Western card games like bridge. They were not out-and-out prostitutes, though some geisha had arrangements with favored customers. The prostitutes were known as Oiran and were an entirely different operation. Admiral Yamamoto was married and fathered four children with his wife Reizo, but it was not a loving match. He had a favored geisha named Kawaii Chiyoko, who in a lot of respects, acted as a surrogate mother rather than a girlfriend. When he was having his issues in opposition with the Army militarists, he lived on his flagship under the protection of his sailors, first on the Nagato and then the Yamato after it was put into service. When he had issues that depressed him, Kawaii Chiyoko would come to see him on his flagship and acted as a combination psychologist and therapist. She had a very prominent part in getting his head straight after the crushing defeat at Midway. Admiral Yamamoto was both very Japanese and very Western at the same time. As far as Operation Vengeance is concerned, it was something that had to be done, and there should be no qualms or regret about it. His successors, Mineichi Koga and Soemu Toyoda, were not as talented or aggressive as Yamamoto, but if he hadn't been killed, the war would have ended in a similar fashion. But he still is a very interesting person to know about, enemy or not.
My fathers youngest brother, uncle Mike married one of Yamamotos granddaughters , true to the chagrin of my mother whose father was US Navy vet 1930-1950…
Thank you for (another) superb show. I really appreciated the discussion about the human side of this event, the decision making, reflecting on how we might view it (ie an assassination) today, the impact, and the portrayal of it. Episode review ⭐⭐⭐⭐⭐/⭐⭐⭐⭐⭐ Series/show review ⭐⭐⭐⭐⭐/⭐⭐⭐⭐⭐ The show as a whole is not attempting to be "balanced" in terms of US versus other points of view (this is not a criticism!), but it is clearly approaching this from an academically appropriate and balanced objective and subjective viewpoint but then adding an approachability to the material and analysis that is often missing from such academic assessments. This is not easy and is done really really well 🙂. I am also hugely appreciating the output rate 😁
I’m going to have to read Bill’s article. I’ve been talking for 10 years about the very thing he briefly mentioned and our lack of preparedness for the fight we are actively trying to pick with China.
Side Note: DH98 Mosquito V’s P38 Lightning - The DH98 was designed as a light fast bomber and it excelled in this roll. The P38 was designed as a fast interceptor and it excelled in this roll. The issue between the two aircraft is how well they adapted to roles outside their design parameters and they both converge from separate directions to be applied in the same rolls (fighter Bomber). Both multi-role aircraft have different strengths and weaknesses that can be applied to the mission profile. The Westland Whirlwind is a better comparison to the P38 Lightning except the Whirlwind concept wasn’t properly realised.
The USAAF asked American aircraft manufacturers about building the Mosquito under license. They all said that they weren’t interested in building a wooden aircraft.
The Whirlwind was a fairly silly idea small twin using two of an updated version of the small inter-war Kestrel engine. It was dropped as the introduced 37 litre Griffon engine had more than twice the power of the 21 litre Whirlwind engines and it made no sense to further develop that engine. The Griffon ended up with two stage intercooled superchargers and contra-rotating propellers in the naval Seafire 47.
Wow 16 moves in 40 years. That's low for a navy family. Mom said, they moved 30 time in 20 years. Only two of her kids was born in the same state. Happy is the man who finds a good wife
I live in the small farming community of Culver Oregon home to Rex Barber. I know members of his family. They say Rex was just a small town farm boy. I love your channel.
Excellent podcast. One thing Ii think deserves mention when evaluating Yamamoto as a commander, which was mentioned by Ian Toll in a detailed character sketch from his trilogy, was that Yamamoto was vehemently opposed to the practice of Japanese captains insisting on committing suicide by going down with their ships - he believed it was stupid and wasteful.
What makes you guys so phenomenal is how you make us listeners really THINK about this stuff, and put ourselves in that time and place to do so. This episode prompts the “What If?…” the mission hadn’t been approved, or had failed, which it easily could have for all of the reasons you laid out. OK, Yamamoto is still in charge in June, 1944. He’s in command of Japanese forces at the Great Marianas Turkey Shoot. Does Yamamoto the Rock Star survive becoming Yamamoto the Guy Who Just Got Routed? Would he have the cache to go to the highest military leadership, PM, and Emperor himself and say “We have to fold, we’re done here. I told you we had to do this quickly, before it turned into a war of attrition against an enemy with vastly more industrial capacity than we have. That capacity is now at sea in the form of their Task Force 58. Essex-class carriers, Iowa-class battleships, so many cruisers, the Pacific isn’t big enough for them to all turn around in, so many that they converted some into Independence-class carriers. So many submarines, you could walk from Singapore to Tokyo on their periscopes. Seek peace.” Would he still have enough cache that they’d listen to him and surrender, before Iwo, Okinawa, and the incendiary & H-bombing of their home islands?
You guys give great insight and info on these battles. I'm actually surprised this mission was approved, mainly because the info on Yamamoto's planned route was so precise, I'm surprised that someone didn't think it was a fake transmission to check if we were intercepting their messages.
As I recall the book "Operation Vengeance" by Dan Hampton delved extensively into the Barber/Lamphier issue, resolving it the same way Seth and Bill did in this show.
Some people have taken great offense at the fact that we said that Barber shot down the airplane. The fact is that the strike pattern in the bird indicated the rounds were fired from behind, which was Barber’s position. Lanphier’s own flight mates even called him out on his false claim. As did the Japanese. History isn’t always what people have been told for years.
@@UnauthorizedHistoryPacificWar I was unaware of the controversy before reading the aforementioned book. As I recall it pretty clearly established the case as you state it.
Still at the beginning of y'all's presentation, but just wanted to say: 1) Yes, it was indeed an assassination. Bear in mind that at least down here in Texas, for a long time "he needed killin'" was a valid legal defense if it could be proven. Seems to be the case here. 2) IIRC, after Pearl Harbor, the Admiral commented to a colleague, "I am afraid we have awakened a sleeping giant," precisely due to his tours through the US while attending Harvard.. [ETA3: Thanks for the correction, Capt Bill.] ETA: 18 Apr is a signal date in American history: 1775, the Battle of Lexington, 1942, Doolittle's Raid, and then this. ETA2: as for the morality aspect, the man wore the uniform of his country. He was fair game.
Gentlemen, long time listener, first time commenter. You Say Admiral Isoroku Yamamoto had made numerous blunders that helped the allies, 19:00 I'd like to ask, what Japanese Admiral or General in that time period, under those ideological national circumstances could have done any better? I say this not necessarily as an IJN enthusiast, I've read countless books on the WitP and thoroughly enjoy your take on everything that has happened thus far in the war, but who could have produced better results from the Japanese stand point with their existing national resources and strategic war plan? As you said, he was a very popular national figure, and the chosen leader of the IJN, I just don't agree that he was the direct cause of the failures up until this part of the war. Great episode, I will keep listening for sure.
I think we said that he did not have an equal within the Navy. However, all tactical and strategic plans executed by the Navy to that point were all his call. He is the one that issued the orders he is the one that came up with the plans. He is the one to blame.
@@UnauthorizedHistoryPacificWar Thank you so much for the reply. I don't want to split hairs here, BUT, your first and third points are spot on. He did issue the orders, and when in management, "everything is your fault". However, he did not have tactical command in any encounter that I am aware of that resulted in either A: an Allies tactical victory, or B: an Allies Strategic victory, therefor his orders may not have been carried out to his determination. He brought to the table his best strategic plan according to IJN doctrine, based on the current information and resources available. I truly believe you need to throw the entire high command under the bus, not just Isoroku Yamamoto. It was a failed decision from the start of the WitP by the Empire of Japan, it seems to me that he is at best a scape-goat for all things IJN during the early period of the war. Thanks again for the comment, looking forward to the next episode!
@@stevehengy2539 you are correct. He did not have tactical. My bad. However, again, he was the boss. Midway was his plan. The piecemeal attacks at Guadalcanal were his ideas (except Savo)
I loved this show! I do think Yamamoto would have gambled the fleet more hoping for a miraculous victory and anything can happen in war. But the US Navy and other forces grew stronger everyday. While the Japanese grew weaker. Nimitz gambled at Midway and it paid off. Preserving the fleet. You have to ask for what? For example: They ended up sending Yamato on a one way suicide mission to beach itself. And simply maintaining and supplying it without using it but still sucking up resources. The war was obviously lost for Japan but a major naval victory might have delayed the Allied victory as well. And that was the whole Japanese strategy from the beginning of the war until the end. To make it costly to the Americans and hope they'd give up and offer peace terms allowing Japan to keep at least some of what they'd taken. So I think Yamamoto's death was a huge win for the US. It had a Doolittle Raid effect upon Japanese morale and confidence in and within the IJN as well. 'Our greatest admiral and we can't even keep him safe. We must be weaker than the government is telling us. And do we trust the new guy?' That's just my two cents. Brilliant show I really learned a lot and enjoyed it.
I have read accounts by credentialed historians that suggest FDR was not consulted in the attack. I would not call the attack an assassination. Yamamoto was in uniform, in a military aircraft and conducting military operations when he was shot down. All of Japan's WWII leaders (including the emperor) had no problem with murdering millions of Chinese civilians.
Yes, I agree. Another great episode! But I must take issue with the depiction of the Yamamoto shoot down as an assassination. The Oxford dictionary (and common sense) defines assassination as "murder (an important person) in a surprise attack for political or religious reasons." Yamamoto was as ENEMY COMBATANT thus this was NOT as assassination.
FDR was most certainly consulted before the strike. As a matter of fact, as I stated earlier in another comment, FDR had serious moral issues about killing Yamamoto. We're not making this stuff up...merely reporting it.
@@UnauthorizedHistoryPacificWar I've read this, and always been puzzled by it? Why would FDR have had moral issues about striking Yamamoto? he wasn't political leadership. he was a high ranking combatant military officer, present on all of the battlefields. Would FDR have had issues sinking Rommel if intelligence said he was crossing the Mediterranean? Or Doenitz? Would the US show such restraint to Nagumo?
The Admiral was a completely legitimate target even back then, the more interesting hypothetical would be: what if it had been the Emperor for whatever unlikely event...
You could argue the Emperor was not a military asset. Yamamoto was. Killing the Emperor would not hamper japanese military operations and the japanese would probably have hidden everything.
Yesterday, the National Museum of the Pacific replayed parts of a symposium it held in 1988 with 8 of the American pilots involved in Operation Vengeance, as well as the only escorting Zero pilot that survived the war. It's quite interesting and another insight to the action and subsequent events. There were poignant moments where, as one example, one of the pilots related his interviewing in 1949 one of the high ranking Japanese who was involved with planning and sending the coded itinerary for Yamamoto. After the pilot had, at great length, interviewed the Japanese officer the officer had pulled his handwritten notes used to send the encoded message. The pilot made a silent observation to himself at that time in 1949 on the information there and the confidential and still classified interpretation by our intelligence of the message the Japanese transmitted in 1943 as to Yamamoto's itinerary. The Japanese officer also asked if he could ask one and only one question and that was how we knew Yamamoto's itinerary. Well, the pilot had an explanation but a fabricated one. He couldn't lawfully answer the Japanese officer as the information was still classified at that time. Somewhat hilariously, one of the pilots tells of an official navy historian who wrote a book on the downing of Yamamoto's plane. Problem was the author didn't know we had broken the Japanese code and no one could correct his bad information without revealing still classified secrets, secrets which even if the author knew, he couldn't use!
Seth noted that Yamamoto was a proponent of airpower, and that is true to an extent. Like most officers of his time, appreciated airpower, but still looked to the battleship too. Yamamoto dd maintain his HQ aboard battleships.
I love this series! As a high school-educated working man with a passion for military & political history, I love your work and am very thankful that channels such as this exist for my continuing education on history.
I hope you guys are making real money with your podcasts... Best on boobtube 😂❤😅😊😮😢
Good for you, Jim. Great attitude. I sense that you bring true humility as part of your persona, which is terrific, but leave any sense of inferiority out in the cold, or heat, as it gets uncomfortably hot here in Arizona. The fact that you're here with us speaks loudly. Amen.
Great comment. I am in the same boat as you. I am a carpenter, and have never served. My grandfather was in the army in World War I. My father was in the Navy just after Korea. I have several uncles and cousins who have served. My fathers favorite uncle was on midway during World War II but I don’t know much about that. I am fascinated by World War II history and find videos like this interesting and enlightening.
@@frankvadnais3536I was a carpenter for ten years before I got my Ma in history.
We like people like you three commenters; common people with an interest to learn. A rarity these days.
Bill's comment towards the end of the podcast is so on point and shows how history should be studied in relation to current events. Who's the sleeping giant now, is a perfect example 👌
I am surprised China has not attempted to take Taiwan recently with the war material and distractions Ukraine has caused. We better wake up.
Thanks
Sadly I lost a two-volume bio of Yamamoto in a move years back (translated from the Japanese). He was a very colorful figure, there was really no one else like him in the Japanese military in this respect. Seth and Bill noted his wide public popularity and high profile; he was also famous in the Ginza, and in the gambling houses. He was probably what would be considered a gambling addict today. It was credibly claimed that he seriously considered resigning from the IJN and moving to the US to become a professional gambler at one point in his life.
His travels in the US were extensive not just during his Harvard time but his later stint in the naval attache's office in Washington. As noted in the show, during these trips he saw the industrial and resource might of the US, and he was fairly awestruck by it all. At one point during his diplomatic assignment he traveled all the way to Mexico's Caribbean oil region (after seeing Texas's oil riches on the way). The Mexican foreign office advised the US embassy that there was a Japanese naval attache who lacked the funs to return to DC (he probably gambled the money away). The State Dept. fronted him the cash to get back to Washington. Not a great naval tactician, but a colorful one.
Knew he was considered a great poker player. The Pearl Harbor attack was a great gamble. so much could have gone wrong.
I do agree that he had serious flaws as a naval tactician. He loved complicated plans and that was bad. Relying on surprise as much as he did will sooner or later destroy you and it did at Midway. He also refused to use his Battle Line when it could have really mattered; not so much at Guadalcanal- though he should have gone all in there as well; but at New Guinea. BUT he was so in love with the idea of the Decisive Battle that he never used enough force when it really mattered. Guadalcanal showed that; imagine if he had sent Nagato and Mutsu instead of battle cruisers. They were fast enough and had real armor belts. Not to mention 16" guns. Imagine if he had just sent Yamato. as good as Ching Lee and Washington was, that would have been seriously bad. Of course on Friday the 13th it would have wiped Callaghan and still been able to bombard Henderson field. Matter of fact send all three of his biggest Battleships to get it done. Henderson Field would have been a crater and the reinforcements and supplies would have landed safely. NOW in the end it would not have mattered because of pearl harbor but he could have bought so much time for the fortifications on the inner perimeter that it would have lengthened the war.
I am shocked frankly that he did not read us correctly; even if the warning had been delivered on time the US people would still have been enraged about it all.
but then the pearl harbor attack would not have been anywhere near as successful
AND when you take the long view, why was attacking the old BBs so important? Only TWO of the US carriers were around to attack and we had three others ready to go and Hornet soon coming. Pearl Harbor really did not accomplish much as far as war fighting was concerned. we were already pretty weak in the Pacific.
@@johnhallett5846The problem with Nagato and Mutsu (and every other Japanese BB or BC save for the Kongos, and to some extent, Yamato and Musashi) was that they were too slow. They would have been just about fast enough to operate in the Med or the Atlantic, but they didn’t have the dine and dash speed of the Kongos or the ability to take hits like the Yamatos. They could only do about 24 1/2 knots at Guadalcanal.
They didn’t have had the speed to race down the slot, bombard Henderson & get out before the run came up & the bombers came out to play. And like every other Japanese heavy, their AA suites were dreadful.
@@GrahamCStrouse Actually there are sources saying that they were capable of 26 knots. But still the Bombardment showed what could be done and that one was cut short. What I meant is they should have sent ALL the Kongos or upped the Ante with the Mutsu and Nagato. They could have made the dash at that speed.
BOTTOM line is that Yamamoto by this time had decided this was the decisive battle but he did not act like it
Sending a more powerful bombardment force would have quite likely both destroyed the USN cruiser force and then hit Henderson Field so bad that they could not have had flight operations until late in the day at best
Senior military officers are all legitimate targets.
When you fight the US, all targets are legitimate targets (hospitals, schools, civilians, etc.)
So were civilians. I have a friend who as a young girl survived the Nazi bombing of Liverpool in which she whitnessed the death of childhood friends, and I had in-laws who survived in Hiroshima atomic bombing. In addition, the Nazis murdered members of both sides of my family, one great uncle in Holland and numerous cousins, uncles, and aunts in Estonia.
@@georgegeller1902 aren't you awesome
@@robleahy5759 : My dog thinks so. My wife not so much anymore.
Depends. If the enemy leader is stupid; why kill him. He's an asset😅
Bill's point regarding China was an important one.
Thanks! TV is trash today, haven't watched in years except for Sports, I feel a need to give support for programs I enjoy of some sort, Do'N my Part.
Many thanks
The military makes you a professional mover.
Very well made and very accurate. Therebarebtwo minor corrections. 1) Lanphere, Barbara and Mitchell were initially recommended for the MoH but had it reduced to Navy Cross by Halsey when Halsey found out the pilots talked to a reporter about the mission and broken code JN25. 2) pilot Hine was seen by a PBY near the Russell Islands trailing smoke. The PBY communicated with Hine who indicated he thought he could make it back to base. He didn't make it. See Jeffery Cox Dark Water Starry Sky and Dan Hampton Operation Vengeance
@@davidkoss1304 Halsey was not happy with Lamphier's tendency to tout his own horn and gave all the pilots a stern warning to maintain secrecy about missions due to the code breakers
This was an amazing operation done on such short notice. It was done with such precision without all the technology we take for granted today. As a USAF veteran, I take a touch of pride in both this and the Doolittle mission to Japan.
In 2006, I was at the Doolittle Raider reunion at the USAF Museum in Dayton, OH. I got all 8 Raider autographs including Lt. Col Cole, Doolittle's copilot. Sadly, all are gone now.
The men of both missions are heroes. Both did what many thought couldn't be done. Both at extreme range for the aircraft involved. Both missions did far greater harm to the Japanese than we had any right to expect.
Neither were turning points in the war. Both had a much greater impact than the numbers of people involved.
Keep up the good work. These videos should be standards for our kids to learn about WWII in the Pacific.
Another, simply flawless episode in this unmatched history of the Pacific in WWII.
I'm never disappointed with your Podcasts. This particular one dives into depths that I've never seen discussed, such as the moral questions brought on by this mission, and just how high up the chain of command it had to go to get approval. Of course, it also includes the common misconceptions, personal thoughts and contributions of the people involved, and myths associated with this operation. As usual, it was very educational, entertaining, and insightful. Thanks guys!
Right... Every episode is just so much fun.. and cool.. and idk.. just interesting...
Definitely my favorite thing right now
Speaking of moral issues, the only use of the fruit of the Manhattan Project would be a fine part of the wrap up episodes of this war in the Pacific. It is good to know that the men involved with the punctuation that brought this chapter in the horror of man's relationship to one another were at least as concerned and ambivalent as all the Monday morning quarterbackers who have criticized the use of Fat Man and Little Boy to stop the Madness.
A truly wonderful series of investigations, presented by two awesome men and their guests. Many thanks for your work, which I look forward to always.
No. This was not an assassination. This was the execution of a war criminal.
Great job guys, I never miss an episode. Glad to see Bill back!
You guys are awesome. This podcast is the highlight of my Tuesday mornings ❤🎉
Happy to have another episode to listen to, and lose myself for an hour or so…. Thanks Seth and Bill….
Incredibly accurate planning is a wonderful disguise for extraordinary luck. Often plagued by technological problems, the Japanese planning and scheduling seems to have been faultless and we lucked out by depending on that planning and scheduling.
I have read that Yamamoto and Billy Mitchell used to play poker at the Naval Officers Club in Washington and that one of the favored topics of discussion was a hypothetical air attack on Pearl Harbor. However, not having been there to overhead, I can't swear to it.
If you're talking about the 1930's, I don't think Pearl Harbor was much of a thing at that time. Wasn't it only '39 or '40 when the U.S. Naval presence at Pearl was supplemented by moving assets from the West coast of the U.S. as a show of commitment to their Pacific holdings?
@@hurch1915 Actually talking about the 1920's. The curious thing about wars is that there are always some people with the foresight to understand how it is they will most likely happen. The trick is to then avoid them, but once the big ball starts rolling, there is usually no one that can stop it. Pearl Harbor was a wonderful harbor fully adequate for a large fleet. Anyone with half a brain would have had to admit it if confronted with the facts about the harbor. The Japanese, as well as the Americans, were well aware that any major war in future in the Pacific was going to be primarily fought by two major powers, and there for all intents and purposes, there were only two available. If the next war was to involve airplanes, as both Mitchell and Yamamoto certainly believed, then the best harbor in the middle of the Pacific was a logical point of discussion in terms of both harboring a fleet there and also logically thereafter, attacking it.
@@thomasjamison2050 I cant' argue with that. It's undeniable that these guys were "visionary", and indeed, most likely discussed the future roles of naval air power. I can easily imagine a discussion where air power might be used against an anchored fleet. The IJN had plans for just such an operation even prior to the infamous Taranto raid of November 1940.
@@hurch1915😮
Excellent story. I had no idea how time-fixed this thing was. I always assumed they had some time to look around and prepare. Some time margin.
Yet they had mere minutes to pull this off. Astounding.
Seth & Bill: Thanks for dispelling the popular myths about Yamamoto, and especially for placing the entire affair in perspective. I've always been somewhat morally conflicted about the hit on Yamamoto. The observation that the Japanese wouldn't have been the least bit hesitant to take out any of the U.S. commanders is spot on. That's what happens in war. It sucks, but reality is what it is.
Once again; you two gentlemen have given us valuable insight on the shared humanity of INhumanity. WAR. As a Cold War submarine veteran; we saw Eastern Bloc ships as targets; never realizing that they were just as human as we were.
I try to comment every episode! This is the only channel I try and do so for because I appreciate every episode so very much. The operational genius those Lightning Pilots had was truly impressive! 1000 mile missions back in the day are more than stunning and to arrive on scene 1 minute early is just unbelievable. Thanks again guys and glad to see the youngster Bill back and excited to see what next week has in store! 🤟
Mission complete on this episode. Well done, gentlemen! I have to note a really good read on this subject, Lightning Strike by Donald Davis. A really fine portrayal of the American pilots and planners - Mitchell, Barber, Holmes, and Lanphier, among others. Simply incredible planning and meticulous execution. Literally.
I look forward to every Tuesday. Can't wait until Leyte (I know, we have a long way to go yet). I imagine that will be at least four episodes. Keep up the great work. This series is all headed Library of Congress someday.
Hear, hear on the Lib. of Congress suggestion!
dig that sub behind bill
Seth and Bill, once again a great show.
I seem to recollect there was some nasty backwash soon after the conclusion of the mission regarding violation of opsec, specifically the continued maintenance of the mission’s intentionally fabricated cover story.
I can’t remember where I read about this, but it went into great detail about how days or weeks after the successful mission, certain participating pilots couldn’t keep their mouths shut off duty about the true target and foreknowledge of the Admiral’s itinerary.
I understand these alleged alcohol-fueled violations of security eventually drew the ire Admiral Halsey and Admiral Nimitz.
Supposedly there was talk of withdrawing proposed military decorations and possible punitive actions, e.g. non-judicial punishments, special courts martial, etc.
I recall Capt. Lanphier was front and center in this sh*tstorm. Apparently the continued violations were fueled by Lanphier’s questionable shoot down claim.
Supposedly it reached a point to where they thought the cover story was blown and it might have leaked by now to the Japanese military that we’d been reading their mail all along and presently still were reading their message traffic.
You guys know anything about this stain on the mission as it relates to possible UCMJ violations and intentionally damaging our code breaking efforts?
Absolutely blown away- I have never found a podcast one day and then binged episode to episode non stop- to the level I have with yours! Both of you- and your guests- are amazing broadcasters and speakers. I love every minute of this! Thank you so much!
Seth and Bill, another fantastic episode. Every time, you guys add in all those awesome little details that we just_don't_get anywhere else. Incredible work! You guys are appreciated immensely.
Hear, hear!!!!!!!
Top show chaps. The scope, detail and balance of this neglected theatre are appreciated.
Hi, I saw the Captain's new background, and I had to make my first comment to say, wow, that is an amazing shot!
Thank you all for doing these podcasts, because, as has been said in previous episodes, we all need to remember the sacrifices, hardships, and lessons of WWII as they are poorly taught, at best, if at all anymore. especially the PTO side of the war. I really like the format, it is serious, but relaxed, formal yet informal, so to say. and and I always feel as if we are all friends sitting in the same place together discussing Naval History, so, a big Well Done!
The Night the Giants Rode was the best overview of the 2nd Naval battle off Guadalcanal I have seen, Adm. Lee most definitely got the drop on Kirashima. I would have loved to have been on the radio net when he said " This is Ching Lee Stand clear we are coming through chop chop" or something close to that. That good old Kentucky Windage
Thanks again for another great video. I get notified every time you have a new video, since I have the All Bell selected, I don't want to miss a single episode.
Bill, as a former sub driver, your thoughts on Hunt for Red October and Crimson Tide. Great stuff, I would like to point out that the raid on Pearl Harbor was a brilliant plan and executed to perfection. Yamamoto was quite capable of planning other successful strikes using his knowledge of the US and his leadership abilities to accomplish that. Therefore he was a legitimate military target of high importance, just like any other command or control persons/places. The same goes for MacArthur being a legitimate target for the Japanese, of course, they might have chosen not to 🙂 My father fought with the 32nd.
I agree. Another great episode! But I must take issue with the depiction of the Yamamoto shoot down as an assassination. The Oxford dictionary (and common sense) defines assassination as "murder (an important person) in a surprise attack for political or religious reasons." Yamamoto was as ENEMY COMBATANT thus this was NOT as assassination.
I agree. I think Seth and Bill were a little hard on Yamamoto as a strategist. It is true that, after Pearl Harbor, he failed to commit overwhelming forces needed for various operations. However, he had no idea the extent to which Allied intel had compromised some of his strikes, with Midway being the biggest example of that. Four carriers seemed enough against an enemy he thought had two at the most and he had no reason to believe that the US would be positioned for an ambush of his forces. The strategy of Midway was to draw the US into a decisive battle, but a sub-text was to establish a base close to Hawaii that would require his enemies attention - something like a boxer's jab to keep his opponent at a distance. With his prediction that Japan would run wild for six months after Pearl Harbor before the the Allies would begin to turn the tide, Midway must have seemed like a fair play to him to buy Japan more time, if falling short of an overwhelming victory.
@@peterabair1882 He thought Yorktown was sunk so he believed at the most he would face two carriers. So a two to one advantage was comfortable.
Just discovered this channel a couple days ago and it is fantastic: The best videos on WWII I have ever seen.
Doug Canning was on of the pilots on this mission and was my middle school science teacher. I knew back then he was part of the mission but was too shy to ask him about it, even though I was a WWII aviation nut. One of my regrets was not talking to him about his experiences.
In the 70s I read about the conflicting claims between Barber and Lanphier and there was no settled result. That confused me. Didn't each plane have gun camera footage? Seth and Bill finally gave a logical answer to this question.
Well done guys.
That celluloid film degraded quickly. Also, if you are pulling lead on a target it may not be in frame. The camera itself may not be aligned with the guns on an aircraft that has done some yanking and banking.
Good to have Capt Toti back. Love the background !!!
April 18th, an important date in the military history of this country. 18 April 1775 General Gage's Regulars begin preparing to march on Lexington and Concord. 18 April 1942, The Doolittle Raiders launch from the carrier HORNET for the raid on Japan. All of these briefs on the nitty gritty of WWII events and personalities are fabulous. BRAVO ZULU 💯🇺🇸🇺🇸🇺🇸🇺🇸👍MERICA'!!
Just an outstanding commentary to accompany some video I've never seen. Seth and Captain Toti, you are becoming downright professional. Your regular guests are really enjoying themselves, and are LEARNING from YOU both. Seeing you all evolve and meld is as engrossing as the content. We'll played, Men.
Great episode. Bill, I hope your feeling well and good luck in you’re new house. Awesome job Seth and Bill on this. Yamamoto was a fascinating person in many ways, good and bad.
Thanks!
Another great discussion of history, thank you gentlemen.
Another masterpiece! Thank yall so very much.
What a great conversation
I read the comments about how great you guys are. Every one of them is spot on. Such fine preparations. Thank you. I am learning so much I can't believe it.
Excellent. I read a book on Adm Yamamoto the detailed his career from about 1918 to 1940 and his advice not to war with the US. It addressed the changes that cornered him into the Pacific war. Excellent book, from the library in the 70s. I do not remember the title. Great presentation..... very much appreciate this series, and every episode.
Moving! No Joke, I hate it with passion, Good to have you back Bill.
Thanks!
@@william_toti
@@Titus-as-the-Roman "Move" is a four-letter word to me too.
Thank you Gentlemen! Nice background Captain!
This was an incredible episode. Thank you for doing all the research. Keep it comin' boys
Seth and Bill do a great job with this podcast!! Thanks guys!!
Please know that I recognize my coming late to this discussion.
Thank you, Captain Toti, for recognizing that China is the preeminent manufacturer these days. That was our strength in WW2, and it will be their strength in any upcoming military conflict. I have wondered how long it would take for that to be seen for what it is. Having visited China in depth twice, and having had a close relative work there more than once for several years each time, my perspective has matured into a berlief that it is time that we wake to their prodigious work ethic and to their innovation, especially in efficient, rapid, volume manufacturing. And we need to recognize that they bear a grudge against us for participating in militarily forcing trade upon them in the early to mid nineteenth century. They still have destroyed monuments dating back to that time, while we have let ourselves become ignorant of it at all levels and sectors of society.
There is nothing like listening in on a conversation between two intelligent people who like and respect one another on an interesting topic. Thanks, gentlemen.
I really love these podcast. I cannot get enough history about the Pacific War. Bill I really hope your move is successful. I hope I never have to move again. Also, WTH, Godzilla movie!!! I cannot see why you don't have this in your bio. Really you should be introduced as a naval Godzilla technical advisor.😂 Keep up the great work.
Bill responding-- haha. It was fun, but I hope it's not the highlight of my bio!
I am a Japanese aficionado of the Pacific War who enjoys watching these videos. I'd like to share an episode in the memoir by his son that defines the kind of person Admiral Yamamoto was. On the last day before moving to his new command as chief of the combined fleet, the admiral came home. Being ill, his wife was unable to come to the dinner table. Together with his children, Yamamoto carried the dinner table to his wife’s bedroom where they ate together. On the center of table was whole roasted red snapper (think Thanksgiving turkey). At the end of the meal no one had touched the fish. The family must have had premonitions. The next day when the son left home for school, Yamamoto for the first (and last time) saw his son off. This was the last time the son would see him. According to what I have read, the base Yamamoto was to inspect was to serve as the rear guards as Japan shrank its defense perimeter. Yamamoto knew the men at the base would be left behind. This was the reason for his risking the trip. Even though it was war, to me the whole course of events was tragic for a man who had opposed the War, but was a patriotic Naval Officer.
Another great episode gentlemen. Time went quickly but the details presented up to this operation was appreciated.
Another great episode! Wish you two were able to do more than one a week, but I understand you both pack this project into your otherwise full schedules. It is just so interesting to learn something new every week.
The idea you have left me to puzzle about relates to whether or not all the flyers involved knew the real purpose of the mission. If any of them had ended up in Japanese hands it would likely have blown the cover for our decoding efforts. Telling the flyers had the advantage of letting them know that it was vitally important that they get out of dodge right after the shoot down, so that's a plus. Were they also perhaps instructed to shoot themselves if they got shot down, or at least fight to the death to protect this secret? By the same token, a flyer captured alive who didn't know about the code side of the issue might well have been coerced under torture to confess to lie about the truth, and the net result could have been the same. It's an intriguing proposition and I am sure the best choice was to tell them all, which was a huge violation of the code 'need to know' restrictions.
This is very true. They were most definitely told of their target before they took off, by none other than ADM Mitscher. So the security risk was extremely significant. While an excellent work of decryption and practice, the slips made by senior commanders (Mitscher) and later the pilots themselves, almost blew our cover.
@@UnauthorizedHistoryPacificWar
My take is that this was never a real risk
IJN as a whole just couldn't bare the truth that their code was wide open in front of the enemy
It would inevitably lead to the conclusion that the war was doomed, and the notion of Japan losing the war was not allowed to be touched. So the only option was to pretend the problem never existed 😢😢
What a pleasant surprise! I have exactly 1 hour and 30 minutes left on my shift and needed something (interesting) to keep my mind occupied. This should do just fine 😎
Enjoy!
@@UnauthorizedHistoryPacificWar I did, thoroughly!
New subscriber here, liked & subscribed (twice stated now), great content! You two have great chemistry and do an amazing job bringing history to the present! 🍻
By far the most riveting episode of the podcast so far. Thanks.
Thank-You!
Thank you, guys! One of the very few TH-cam channels I watch at "Normal" speed!
Thank you, wondered this out loud. His terrible battle plans saved hundreds of American lives.
You guys are doing an amazing job! When I see y’all the 2 words that come to mind are knowledge and respect. Love the channel and wish you both the very best.
Admiral Yamamoto was a captive of his culture. IJN with or without him, the IJN habitually relied on overly complicated plans. The Admiral while looking for the Kantai Kessen, when it presented he didn't see it, Guadalcanal. Japan habitually conserved their forces for the much the war until the Sho plan. This was probably a carryover from Yamamoto, he new they could not replace their ships as quickly. So they lost the war.
This is such an excellent series! I finally got caught up after discovering you guys a couple of months ago. I have learned so much. Your coverage of Savo Island was especially meaningful as my Great Uncle Charlie survived the sinking of the Chicago, and went on the finish the war on the same ship as his brother (my grandfather).
Bill, your background is outstanding. Jon will most likely strip his wallpaper when he sees it😂
Congrats on your move.
Very well done gentlemen.
Thank you! So looking forward to more!♥
I have always been interested in Japanese culture, and cult of personality that surrounded Admiral Yamamoto during his life was pretty astounding for that period of time. Beginning in the mid 1920's, the militarist factions had really whipped up an anti-western frenzy to drag the Japanese people back from the influences of the Western culture of the Roaring Twenties. It became anathema for the Japanese to show any Western characteristics, in dress, entertainment, movies and the like. Women were required at some points to drop Western dress and dress in the more traditional kimono. And it is significant because there weren't many people in Japan who were aware of and enjoyed Western culture like Yamamoto did, which I'm sure that the firebrands in the Japanese Army did not like at all. Add to that Yamamoto's point that war with the United States could only be won with a quick lightning strike to demoralize the "weak and cowardly" Americans into a peace favorable to Japan's aims. These firebrands were wrong in SO many ways, as we will see.
But on a personal level, Yamamoto was, as you said, a legendary person to the Japanese people. He was very involved in the geisha culture and was considered and honored patron, to the point of different geisha house vying for his favor. When he went to get a manicure, his nickname was "80 sen", because a manicure price was 100 sen. But Yamamoto had lost two fingers at Tsushima and only had 8 fingers. There have been a lot of misconceptions about the geisha culture over the years. Traditional geishas were primarily entertainers and provided an area of comfort and repose for their clients. They played traditional Japanese instruments like the Koto (a horizontal harp), Shamisen (a three-stringed instrument that is sometimes compared in the West to a banjo) and the Shakuhachi (a wooden flute), and performed Traditional Japanese dances, such as the Shi (fan) and Ken (sword). They were experts in the Japanese tea ceremonies and other similar things. They also played games of chance, such as Shogi, Go and Western card games like bridge. They were not out-and-out prostitutes, though some geisha had arrangements with favored customers. The prostitutes were known as Oiran and were an entirely different operation.
Admiral Yamamoto was married and fathered four children with his wife Reizo, but it was not a loving match. He had a favored geisha named Kawaii Chiyoko, who in a lot of respects, acted as a surrogate mother rather than a girlfriend. When he was having his issues in opposition with the Army militarists, he lived on his flagship under the protection of his sailors, first on the Nagato and then the Yamato after it was put into service. When he had issues that depressed him, Kawaii Chiyoko would come to see him on his flagship and acted as a combination psychologist and therapist. She had a very prominent part in getting his head straight after the crushing defeat at Midway. Admiral Yamamoto was both very Japanese and very Western at the same time. As far as Operation Vengeance is concerned, it was something that had to be done, and there should be no qualms or regret about it. His successors, Mineichi Koga and Soemu Toyoda, were not as talented or aggressive as Yamamoto, but if he hadn't been killed, the war would have ended in a similar fashion. But he still is a very interesting person to know about, enemy or not.
My fathers youngest brother, uncle Mike married one of Yamamotos granddaughters , true to the chagrin of my mother whose father was US Navy vet 1930-1950…
"I fear we have awakened a sleeping giant ... and filled him with a terrible resolve"
Thank you for (another) superb show. I really appreciated the discussion about the human side of this event, the decision making, reflecting on how we might view it (ie an assassination) today, the impact, and the portrayal of it.
Episode review ⭐⭐⭐⭐⭐/⭐⭐⭐⭐⭐
Series/show review ⭐⭐⭐⭐⭐/⭐⭐⭐⭐⭐
The show as a whole is not attempting to be "balanced" in terms of US versus other points of view (this is not a criticism!), but it is clearly approaching this from an academically appropriate and balanced objective and subjective viewpoint but then adding an approachability to the material and analysis that is often missing from such academic assessments. This is not easy and is done really really well 🙂.
I am also hugely appreciating the output rate 😁
I’m going to have to read Bill’s article. I’ve been talking for 10 years about the very thing he briefly mentioned and our lack of preparedness for the fight we are actively trying to pick with China.
Side Note: DH98 Mosquito V’s P38 Lightning - The DH98 was designed as a light fast bomber and it excelled in this roll. The P38 was designed as a fast interceptor and it excelled in this roll. The issue between the two aircraft is how well they adapted to roles outside their design parameters and they both converge from separate directions to be applied in the same rolls (fighter Bomber). Both multi-role aircraft have different strengths and weaknesses that can be applied to the mission profile. The Westland Whirlwind is a better comparison to the P38 Lightning except the Whirlwind concept wasn’t properly realised.
The USAAF asked American aircraft manufacturers about building the Mosquito under license. They all said that they weren’t interested in building a wooden aircraft.
The Whirlwind was a fairly silly idea small twin using two of an updated version of the small inter-war Kestrel engine. It was dropped as the introduced 37 litre Griffon engine had more than twice the power of the 21 litre Whirlwind engines and it made no sense to further develop that engine.
The Griffon ended up with two stage intercooled superchargers and contra-rotating propellers in the naval Seafire 47.
I knew one of the pilots on this mission, Larry Graebner. I wish I got more details from him. What an impressive feat of airmanship and luck.
Wow 16 moves in 40 years. That's low for a navy family. Mom said, they moved 30 time in 20 years. Only two of her kids was born in the same state. Happy is the man who finds a good wife
Great show gentlemen.
I live in the small farming community of Culver Oregon home to Rex Barber. I know members of his family. They say Rex was just a small town farm boy. I love your channel.
Excellent podcast. One thing Ii think deserves mention when evaluating Yamamoto as a commander, which was mentioned by Ian Toll in a detailed character sketch from his trilogy, was that Yamamoto was vehemently opposed to the practice of Japanese captains insisting on committing suicide by going down with their ships - he believed it was stupid and wasteful.
keep these coming fellas 👏
What makes you guys so phenomenal is how you make us listeners really THINK about this stuff, and put ourselves in that time and place to do so.
This episode prompts the “What If?…” the mission hadn’t been approved, or had failed, which it easily could have for all of the reasons you laid out.
OK, Yamamoto is still in charge in June, 1944. He’s in command of Japanese forces at the Great Marianas Turkey Shoot. Does Yamamoto the Rock Star survive becoming Yamamoto the Guy Who Just Got Routed? Would he have the cache to go to the highest military leadership, PM, and Emperor himself and say “We have to fold, we’re done here. I told you we had to do this quickly, before it turned into a war of attrition against an enemy with vastly more industrial capacity than we have. That capacity is now at sea in the form of their Task Force 58. Essex-class carriers, Iowa-class battleships, so many cruisers, the Pacific isn’t big enough for them to all turn around in, so many that they converted some into Independence-class carriers. So many submarines, you could walk from Singapore to Tokyo on their periscopes. Seek peace.”
Would he still have enough cache that they’d listen to him and surrender, before Iwo, Okinawa, and the incendiary & H-bombing of their home islands?
I need to hear more about Bill advising about naval matters in a Godzilla movie!
Ha!
This just keeps getting better and better I hope people appreciate all your hard work.
Good stuff guys. Thankyou. Liked and subscribed.
Wonderful podcast as always. What a terrific series.
You guys give great insight and info on these battles. I'm actually surprised this mission was approved, mainly because the info on Yamamoto's planned route was so precise, I'm surprised that someone didn't think it was a fake transmission to check if we were intercepting their messages.
This is the best description and analysis that the battle.
Thank you!
As I recall the book "Operation Vengeance" by Dan Hampton delved extensively into the Barber/Lamphier issue, resolving it the same way Seth and Bill did in this show.
Some people have taken great offense at the fact that we said that Barber shot down the airplane. The fact is that the strike pattern in the bird indicated the rounds were fired from behind, which was Barber’s position. Lanphier’s own flight mates even called him out on his false claim. As did the Japanese. History isn’t always what people have been told for years.
@@UnauthorizedHistoryPacificWar I was unaware of the controversy before reading the aforementioned book. As I recall it pretty clearly established the case as you state it.
Still at the beginning of y'all's presentation, but just wanted to say:
1) Yes, it was indeed an assassination. Bear in mind that at least down here in Texas, for a long time "he needed killin'" was a valid legal defense if it could be proven. Seems to be the case here.
2) IIRC, after Pearl Harbor, the Admiral commented to a colleague, "I am afraid we have awakened a sleeping giant," precisely due to his tours through the US while attending Harvard.. [ETA3: Thanks for the correction, Capt Bill.]
ETA: 18 Apr is a signal date in American history: 1775, the Battle of Lexington, 1942, Doolittle's Raid, and then this.
ETA2: as for the morality aspect, the man wore the uniform of his country. He was fair game.
Best channel period!!
There was a story that Lindbergh assisted the P38 pilots
By giving them the best fuel mix and propellor pitch for maximum distance.
yea he did but later and he went with them as a non military flyer.
Camp Shelby? You mean: Federally Occupied Mississippi...hey, great broadcast. One of the most remarkable stories to come out of WWII.
Gentlemen, long time listener, first time commenter. You Say Admiral Isoroku Yamamoto had made numerous blunders that helped the allies, 19:00 I'd like to ask, what Japanese Admiral or General in that time period, under those ideological national circumstances could have done any better? I say this not necessarily as an IJN enthusiast, I've read countless books on the WitP and thoroughly enjoy your take on everything that has happened thus far in the war, but who could have produced better results from the Japanese stand point with their existing national resources and strategic war plan? As you said, he was a very popular national figure, and the chosen leader of the IJN, I just don't agree that he was the direct cause of the failures up until this part of the war. Great episode, I will keep listening for sure.
I think we said that he did not have an equal within the Navy. However, all tactical and strategic plans executed by the Navy to that point were all his call. He is the one that issued the orders he is the one that came up with the plans. He is the one to blame.
@@UnauthorizedHistoryPacificWar Thank you so much for the reply. I don't want to split hairs here, BUT, your first and third points are spot on. He did issue the orders, and when in management, "everything is your fault". However, he did not have tactical command in any encounter that I am aware of that resulted in either A: an Allies tactical victory, or B: an Allies Strategic victory, therefor his orders may not have been carried out to his determination. He brought to the table his best strategic plan according to IJN doctrine, based on the current information and resources available. I truly believe you need to throw the entire high command under the bus, not just Isoroku Yamamoto. It was a failed decision from the start of the WitP by the Empire of Japan, it seems to me that he is at best a scape-goat for all things IJN during the early period of the war. Thanks again for the comment, looking forward to the next episode!
@@stevehengy2539 you are correct. He did not have tactical. My bad. However, again, he was the boss. Midway was his plan. The piecemeal attacks at Guadalcanal were his ideas (except Savo)
@@UnauthorizedHistoryPacificWar 👍
@@stevehengy2539 Regardless, thanks for watching AND commenting. I like an intelligent debate.
I loved this show! I do think Yamamoto would have gambled the fleet more hoping for a miraculous victory and anything can happen in war. But the US Navy and other forces grew stronger everyday. While the Japanese grew weaker. Nimitz gambled at Midway and it paid off. Preserving the fleet. You have to ask for what?
For example: They ended up sending Yamato on a one way suicide mission to beach itself. And simply maintaining and supplying it without using it but still sucking up resources. The war was obviously lost for Japan but a major naval victory might have delayed the Allied victory as well. And that was the whole Japanese strategy from the beginning of the war until the end. To make it costly to the Americans and hope they'd give up and offer peace terms allowing Japan to keep at least some of what they'd taken.
So I think Yamamoto's death was a huge win for the US. It had a Doolittle Raid effect upon Japanese morale and confidence in and within the IJN as well. 'Our greatest admiral and we can't even keep him safe. We must be weaker than the government is telling us. And do we trust the new guy?'
That's just my two cents. Brilliant show I really learned a lot and enjoyed it.
I have read accounts by credentialed historians that suggest FDR was not consulted in the attack. I would not call the attack an assassination. Yamamoto was in uniform, in a military aircraft and conducting military operations when he was shot down. All of Japan's WWII leaders (including the emperor) had no problem with murdering millions of Chinese civilians.
Yes, I agree. Another great episode! But I must take issue with the depiction of the Yamamoto shoot down as an assassination. The Oxford dictionary (and common sense) defines assassination as "murder (an important person) in a surprise attack for political or religious reasons." Yamamoto was as ENEMY COMBATANT thus this was NOT as assassination.
FDR was most certainly consulted before the strike. As a matter of fact, as I stated earlier in another comment, FDR had serious moral issues about killing Yamamoto. We're not making this stuff up...merely reporting it.
@@UnauthorizedHistoryPacificWar I've read this, and always been puzzled by it? Why would FDR have had moral issues about striking Yamamoto? he wasn't political leadership. he was a high ranking combatant military officer, present on all of the battlefields. Would FDR have had issues sinking Rommel if intelligence said he was crossing the Mediterranean? Or Doenitz? Would the US show such restraint to Nagumo?
Love the wall!!!!
I love your podcasts, thanks for your insights.
Congrats on the upcoming anniversary! And thanks for the dedication to the podcast. Really enjoying you guys
Love these podcasts. Great work, as always guys. Thanks so much.
I call him the reluctant warrior. Everything I have read indicates he felt it was the wrong war at the wrong time.
I love ❤️ Bill’s background in his new Studio!
Thank you
The Admiral was a completely legitimate target even back then, the more interesting hypothetical would be: what if it had been the Emperor for whatever unlikely event...
You could argue the Emperor was not a military asset. Yamamoto was. Killing the Emperor would not hamper japanese military operations and the japanese would probably have hidden everything.
Best overview of that mission I’ve ever heard, seen, or read. Well done.
Yesterday, the National Museum of the Pacific replayed parts of a symposium it held in 1988 with 8 of the American pilots involved in Operation Vengeance, as well as the only escorting Zero pilot that survived the war. It's quite interesting and another insight to the action and subsequent events. There were poignant moments where, as one example, one of the pilots related his interviewing in 1949 one of the high ranking Japanese who was involved with planning and sending the coded itinerary for Yamamoto. After the pilot had, at great length, interviewed the Japanese officer the officer had pulled his handwritten notes used to send the encoded message. The pilot made a silent observation to himself at that time in 1949 on the information there and the confidential and still classified interpretation by our intelligence of the message the Japanese transmitted in 1943 as to Yamamoto's itinerary. The Japanese officer also asked if he could ask one and only one question and that was how we knew Yamamoto's itinerary. Well, the pilot had an explanation but a fabricated one. He couldn't lawfully answer the Japanese officer as the information was still classified at that time. Somewhat hilariously, one of the pilots tells of an official navy historian who wrote a book on the downing of Yamamoto's plane. Problem was the author didn't know we had broken the Japanese code and no one could correct his bad information without revealing still classified secrets, secrets which even if the author knew, he couldn't use!
Seth noted that Yamamoto was a proponent of airpower, and that is true to an extent. Like most officers of his time, appreciated airpower, but still looked to the battleship too. Yamamoto dd maintain his HQ aboard battleships.
Keep up the excellent content!