Phew... I ended up showing a ton of different books in this one! I think one of the most interesting ideas here is despite the vastly different looks and styles of storytelling... each take on the medium of sequential art draws readers in. People across the world (in English and French speaking markets) are often more engaged with Manga despite the B+W style, and despite the faster art styles. It says a lot about how important character and story is!
I was always amazed with the BD and most of my comic collection is Franco-Belgian. As a kid I really liked TinTin. And my ambition is to make a more realistic looking and dystopian comic, but to keep the coloring in line with TinTin. A cheerfully depressing world. My first Webtoon was on a weekly production scheme. And I had to rush so many panels, it made me look and feel bad. Usually real life was interfering and cut out days of my weekly release, so I had to make up for it on others. And in the end it gave my work a pretty weird feel, because some panels were very elaborate and close to my vision, while others were on the level of sketches. Yet, I colored them all. I didn't like how non-uniform that looked. With my current project Sycophant, I realized during the Prologue that I was running into the same issues, even though I gave myself 2 week production schedules for each "page" (Webtoon pages are 10-20k pixels long). And that really bothered me. So after the first part of the prologue I hunkered down and practiced what I needed to and spent more time than before, but doing it all right. Thumbnail, construction, sketch, vector outline, gs, color, shadows and light. And wow - what a difference! I can't wait to start releasing this first true update. I really understand how much the production method is influenced by the schedule. And on the long run I think this new method doesn't even cost much more time; maybe 1/3rd longer than before. But it's all clean and it elevates my style beyond what I thought possible. Simply by taking more time on each panel I am creating a much more satisfying end result. And have a tighter workflow as a result, too.
there are a bunch of factors. I think the black and white is part of it. Colouring choices are often divisive and if you make it black and white then you're removing that and focusing on pure tonal contrast. alot of small imperfections becomes less obvious than they would otherwise. I have seen a number of works both of manga and manga-styled stuff where they were colourised and lost alot of their visual appeal because the colour version was just not very good. one of the major issues being the shading techniques were not suited for colour so the colourised version looked weird where the original looked fine. I imagine if you had them do colour on the original mangas in the timeframes they were working with it would probably not be very good colouring. Although if they were colouring them from the start I'm sure the shading problem would be less so because they would be using techniques better suited. I also think(for the young audience) it helps to differentiate it from western comics which can feel more kid-orientated. I was never really able to get into western comics beyond a few exceptions because the colourful style reminded me too much of stuff i read as a kid. The black and white style and foreignness(this might be different now that anime is super popular) of manga helped to get past that barrier to take the stories seriously even though in retrospect some of them were absolutely as silly as western comics are. I also think the focus they have on making fairly middle/high quality anime adaptations helps because it helps to get a foot in the door. I remember watching fullmetal alchemist and then reading the manga after. Alot of western comics stay comics and never get adapted and that creates a barrier to entry because quite frankly reading is harder than watching. I think it also helps that japanese companies don't really have a very strong legal presence in the west so there are a ton of non-licensed sites that let you read and watch japanese stuff for free, ethically/legally dubious, but it does attract a young fanbase who might not have the money to throw down on stuff *right now* but will in the near future. I remember being much more adventurous with watching and reading habits with japanese stuff because in practical terms it was free. There are alot of those site for marvel comics and others as well so I won't credit that alone, but I do think it's noteworthy that the comics tend to stay up longer but illegal uploads of the cartoon series tend to go down faster than their anime counterparts. Maybe if I had had easier access to something like Batman-T.A.S. or something in the same way I had free access to anime i would have been more interested in western comics. Also I suspect childhood exposure to studio Ghibli is at play somewhere in this equation.
@@ezequielrivera5480TBF it's just as arguably as bad for both because those big mangakas have to deal with even more criticism and not being able to write the story what they truly want but rather what others want and kind of loose their manga's story look at JJK and it's ending some don't even get to choose when they end
I love hearing you go deep on comics! Especially this topic of quality vs quantity. I had so many thoughts while listening to this. One of my biggest problems with some beautiful French comics is the art is so well done it actually detracts from the pace of the storytelling. I find myself so caught up with the visuals I forget what is actually happening on the page. That's not an indictment though, I still want beautiful Bandes dessinées in my collection. It's unbelievable that Otomo and his assistants where cranking out 40 Akira pages a week! Part of that was while he was also directing the film!! I read somewhere that he just skipped the sketching phase and straight to final pencils then inks. I think with Nausicaa Miyazaki nailed the balance of manga and French styles with beautiful designs that don't look too labored over. It's a phenomenal work, and no surprise he would go on to become the *Miyazaki* with a capital M that we know today. Two American artists that are really pushing the medium forward today are James Harren and Daniel Warren Johnson. They are combining Japanese energy with French compositions, all the while giving it a grungy application of ink that reminds me of bronze age comics. Would love to see you break down one of their books. Lastly, your work on Star Atlas: Core strikes a nice balance like Miyazaki did with Nausicaa. It's beautiful, yet looks efficiently done. Big fan of it.
Great points! James Harren is indeed a composition master. I sometimes look at his work for inspiration even though I’m in a totally different field (preproduction concept design) than comics
Hey Jake! Thanks for checking this one out and leaving your thoughts. I really appreciate it. I feel like I could talk/geek out about comic style forever. I'm sure you can relate to a lot of these ideas with your experience. I agree that often the detail in some french books makes the reader look at the art vs the story sometimes. Perhaps there is something in the cultural divide there... to stop and breath in the environment a bit. Hard to say. It often lacks the immediacy of something like Manga where you get sucked into the story and really get to live with the characters. I do tend to re-read BD more than Manga though! I find that I appreciate different things about the story the more I read it. Little bits in the background. Sometimes it feels like there is a tension between reading the story and finding out what happens vs taking in the art and thinking. Alan Moore had said that comics are a unique medium in the way a reader can go back to pages or chapters they have already read and notice new ideas... or they can pause on a panel and think. Gaining new meaning by reading it at their own page. It's possible this way to add layers of meaning (like he did with Watchmen). Otomo's output was amazing. And it's crazy to think that he was working on the Animated movie for some of that timeline too... Part of me wants to somehow find a way to crank out 20 pages a week without dying from the effort. The idea of drawing a syndicated story like that sounds like so much fun. I'll check out what James Harren and Daniel Warren Johnson have been up to lately. I remember looking at their work a while back. Thanks for the kind words about CORE! It is definitely a style focused on efficiency. My goal for a long time has been to try and get something that could work with a monthly 22 page schedule where I am doing absolutely everything. Which doesn't leave that much time for art. CORE is still a lot slower than that but it's getting there.
Often the panels with details are not action scenes. There are details so you can take your time, it's a moment of rest in the story. In Blacksad that we see in the video we see very clearly that the details are there to slow down the sneak around action. When there is "real" action the details disappear to give a greater feeling of dynamism and not delay the reading. Blacksad takes his time so Juanjo Guarnido draws more detail. If he starts running there will be less detail for more dynamism. The two are linked. The panels will also be thought of differently. That’s the art of comics.
And I would add that in Franco-Belgian comics there are lots of different styles. The “Ligne Claire” (Like Tintin or "I Killed Ad*lf H*tl*r" by Jason), on the contrary, doesn't seek details or realism. There is no shadow or play of light to highlight what is important or the emotions, a bit like expressionism.
I loved Asgard!!!! Now I completely understand why were you recommending me French Albums for my comic (I'm Chuck Siger, just not logged in with that account this time).
As someone who has a manga serialization and has worked on comics in the west, I think there are a few things that are missing to understand scheduling better: Many mainstream manga serializations are weekly, BUT it's possible only because there are multiple assistants working alongside the mangaka. For example, Oda (One Piece) has an average of 5 assistants to be able to do weekly releases, and the schedules are connected with a weekly magazine being printed. There are bi-weekly and monthly magazines with different schedules, and such creators tend to have fewer assistants OR, if popular enough, can spend more time creating each page. Also, many times when a volume is released, the art is polished up (Togashi from HxH is famous for that). I might have missed it, but there is also a major factor to consider when it comes to domestic markets and pricing. A manga volume in Japan is very affordable at around 4-5 USD for 200+ pages, while a 50-page French comic in hardcover costs 30+ euros. On the other hand, an issue of a superhero comic book may cost 5 USD for 20+ pages and 20 USD for 100 pages. It's crucial because if there's more money per unit, more people can get involved, or more time can be allocated to a project. In Japan, a new serialized publication needs to sell 20,000 copies to avoid cancellation. In the West, selling 20,000 units of a trade is considered a great achievement. Another thing is that most projects right now are not made in real-time - in Japan, you need to "bank" several chapters before you start publication to account for sickness, holidays, etc.; if there is a major success, most creators "eat" what they banked over the years. In the West, when you are not doing a single-issue comic, you can take a lot of time to create for the graphic novel format.
Great video Tim. Really great set of books which I need to get onto asap, I could have watched you go through your collection for hours :). Hopefully can get English translations of the BD? I'm not too familiar with it so looking forward to discovering and experiencing them. It just shows that having a diverse collection/interest in different genres/styles can really open up the imagination and open doors for your own creativity. Even if you don't like the look of it at first, things can change your mind.
Yeah you can often get english translations of French books digitally. Or at least they were often available through the old comixology which is now folded into Amazon Kindle... I haven't checked what is on there lately (sometimes those publishing deals can be tricky and stuff disappears from sale). Thanks for the kind words! I'm glad this video was entertaining :)
Thank you Tim! I've been waiting for you to tackle differences between formats-between different countries. I'm most especially interested in French/European comics as they are bigger and have much more panel-to-page ratio than your average comic. Plus the art is painstakenly gooood
@rockon8174 same is also true for less panels and smaller pages. One if the things I appreciate about good Franco Belgian comics is that the size of the page means that the artist and writer are able to fully explore a story through storytelling, word balloons and captions, and artistic detail without having to stretch what could be a 64 page book into a tankobon with potentially worse art
There's something about the black and white pen and ink style of Manga that has always appealed to me. I never got into western comics because super heros never appealed to me and the colored comics just sort of turned me off. European ones were a bit better, but something about Manga specifically called to me. Also, regarding the (false) belief that Manga artists can't do detailed art and so are drawn to weekly manga work is easily debunked when looking at artists like Murata, whose work is stunning when judged by any comic standard, western or otherwise. Thanks again for an insightful video! The thought that comic style is influenced by production speed certainly makes sense, but had never occurred to me before.
This was so helpful! I’ve been struggling with my comic schedule for a while and didn’t even realize that it was because I was trying to tell a manga-inspired story (super long) but with a western art style slowing me down! I’ll definitely start studying some methods for prioritizing speed while still looking appealing from my favorite manga artists
I've been learning how to do picture books, and I definitely get what you mean about the speed of the drawing giving it a looser stylized look. Normally, I do more detailed slower drawings, but I'm really liking the feeling and organic look I can get drawing in this way--not to mention the faster output being a huge plus!
So proud of you, Tim! It's been a joy watching your art journey over the years. Love your channel! Always wished we would have worked on something (This is Marcus White).
This was brilliant - I've been thinking about this for years, how comic art, story and structures are shaped by commercial formats in a certain location. Once established, artists idea of what comics are/can be is framed by these industry conventions, and it becomes a self perpetuating system. Another category outside of printed comics is web comics - there both format and commercial considerations again shape content. Big fan of the new hybrid model touched on at the end (being from Adelaide - delighted to see Jason Pamment featured too!). These days creators have easier access to a far broader range of influences and formats than back in the day.
Your comment about losing a lot of energy when spending more time on an image has definitely rung true for me, for many reasons. Not only does the sketchy quality of simpler linework help with the "energy" and sense of motion, it takes a lot more effort to preserve the gestural quality imbued into art at the initial sketch. It can be done, but it is like that "extra 80% effort going towards 20% of product" problem. Also, I think that more "polished" artwork tends to look more like a snapshot in time, and takes more effort for the reader to imagine the figure in motion. When I am reading a comic or manga, It is easier for me to fill in the gaps with simpler designs and artwork (sometimes, not always). In manga, I find that it sometimes happens without me even noticing. More detail also causes me to slow down. I might have to read the artwork more carefully to understand what is going on, or it may be because I want to take the time to appreciate the effort.... either way, for me, it slows the pacing. TLDR certain, simpler art styles are better at preserving gestural quality, may be easier for readers to imagine in motion and may even encourage readers to automatically fill in the gaps themselves. It also effects pacing.
I don't fully buy that. With more detailed comics, you simply have to use different techniques to make the sense of motion come thru. For example using smaller close-up frames, or intercutting wider shots with a close up on a single panel, without edges between them. Eg. Monsters shown from one perspective in the upper and lower corners of a panel, while the center of the panel is divided by a detailed close-up of a pistol, drawn from it's own perspective, all In a single panel. It's tough for me to describe this by text, but yeah, detailed comics have their own methods of achieving an equal sense of momentum. And they do so while looking better (imo) than most simpler styles, by virtue of being more detailed and beautiful than a bunch of sketch lines with gradients or dotted patterns overlaid between them.
the orcs and goblins series from a bunch of French artist really blew me away. I want to make my own novel series, and I really wanted to make a blend between Joe Mads work, and something more detailed but I couldn't figure out how far I could go. Then when I found the Mage, Dwarves, Orcs and Goblins, etc. series from the French artist it really blew me away. I only wish they had printed English versions.
It’s vitally important to consider what you enjoy when doing art, & the timeframe you like to spend on each piece. Beginners may not know this. When I started out, I worked primarily in illustration, but the better I got, the higher paid & in depth the work got. For example if you’re painting splash, you have several phases for that illustration & it can go on for weeks. For me that was torture. I tried every trick in the book to make it bearable, eg, doing each part of an illustration semi-separately to treat it as a series of works rather than just 1; having multiple freelance illustrations going on & cycling through them, etc. But I felt so burned out that every time I finished one of these, I’d never want to see the subject again. 😂 Ultimately I gravitated to concept design where I do preproduction environments & characters. I still do some longer term works (for example I paint murals on the side) & occasionally take a freelance illustration if it’s a 1-off book or game cover where I want to maintain a relationship with the publisher. I don’t get burned out if I’m drawing different things. I’m not saying this is best for everyone, though. Many artists really love getting to dedicate a longtime on a piece, rendering multiple light sources on hair & scales for weeks. They take pride in knowing they painted a loading screen or marketing illustration for a popular character skin in a game. I just never felt the reward from that, I’m more the type who likes the act of drawing a design & composition
Well, there is really, really well known a time once you've been in the anime sphere for a while, but the real question here's when you will get another beserk
as much as I love manga art. I feel too many manga fans dismiss western art/artist or use their love of manga to sh*t on western art. Let's not act like western artists like Frank Frazzeta, Juan Guimenez, or Dan Mora never existed lol.
@@BRINGTHENERFHERDERS You forgot Moebius sir, but yea people forgot how great western artist were. But many of the modern western artist pale to their predecessors.
Found your channel a couple months ago and I love every one of your videos! I struggle a lot still with finding my style, especially since I want to do both comics and concept art, but I appreciate your insight and your videos are so inspiring:)
European comics are generally more interesting and versatile than their Pacific Ring counterparts. American and Asian comics are more present on social media, thus for someone outside it looks like Europe is lacking behind, when it isn't the case at all. We are less online active on that front l, because of the European tradition of community sharing in real life, rather than loudly announcing and talking about our comics and art everywhere.
@@Slawa_SaporogezI've seen plenty of European comic artists promote their works online. Mangaka and European comic artists have a lot in common in how they promote work. There have been a lot of cultural exchanges between the two. BD in particular has been heavily influenced by manga much like Manga was influenced by BD.
Really great insight, I love the emphasis on the time-frame having a big impact on the end product, even the style. This was a very thorough explanation of the core aesthetic diffrences of these markets. I learned a lot. As a side note of interest, as an outsider, I'm curious how you found work in the French market?
That's always been my issue with some western comics. The artwork is hyper detailed and extremely impressive from a technical and artistic viewpoint, however, the panels are so busy and there is so much visual information to process that it bogs the reader down with unnecessary detail and makes reading feel like a chore. Thankfully, not all western comics fit that stereotype. There are several successful western comics that use a simplified style. The Maxx, Hellboy, and Grendel are a few examples. Look at the Alien Vs Predator omnibus as another good example. Archie comics also has a house style that is very simple that flows extremely well. Of course, I can't forget about Tank Girl, lol!
That’s an interesting opinion to read. I think it’s all what you’re familiar with. In good western comics, all that detail is meant to be part of the storytelling. The backgrounds are meant for worldbuilding & even communicating relationships between side characters if you see them interacting for example. To absorb that, the reading process is indeed slower, but it’s bc you’re meant to be absorbing more info. Ofc empty/ pointless detail shouldn’t be included. In manga I often feel the panels are so empty & things are a bit… dragged out, for lack of a better term. They will often show the talking heads having dialogue which leaves me wondering why draw this? Archie’s do seem like the perfect medium. But the reason they’re able to be done that way is bc the worldbuilding is quite simple, the settings are repeated, & the stories are character-driven comedy/ slice-of-life. I do agree it’s the most accessible of Western comics, which is likely why it’s sold the most for the longest, in aggregate (along with Disney comics, IIRC)
Grear video, I noticed with alot of asian art not just in manga but also illustrations and concept art it seems to have this contained flowiness. Idek if im explaining it right but that's the thing that made me obsessed with Asian art as a kid and I'm still trying to figure how to do it in my own art lol.
This video also tell about speed/style relation: m.th-cam.com/video/OLsp_df9nrk/w-d-xo.html Say about 2 minutes in video Alex Toth, John Buscema, John Ramita create 2 or 3 US style superhero comics each month (but no tell how many pages).
Should've included your comics in I don't own them yet, but of the videos you've shown them in, they look gorgeous. Also I love that you made this video. You broke it down beautifully but simple, especially with how the speed makes the style what it is. I'm working on simpler comics with my incredibly limited skills myself in hopes to one day take on a project I've been building for years, and this is very inspiring and a video I'll definitely come back too. All your videos are interesting and your artwork is also inspiring. I very much appreciate these!
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Phew... I ended up showing a ton of different books in this one!
I think one of the most interesting ideas here is despite the vastly different looks and styles of storytelling... each take on the medium of sequential art draws readers in.
People across the world (in English and French speaking markets) are often more engaged with Manga despite the B+W style, and despite the faster art styles.
It says a lot about how important character and story is!
I was always amazed with the BD and most of my comic collection is Franco-Belgian. As a kid I really liked TinTin. And my ambition is to make a more realistic looking and dystopian comic, but to keep the coloring in line with TinTin. A cheerfully depressing world.
My first Webtoon was on a weekly production scheme. And I had to rush so many panels, it made me look and feel bad. Usually real life was interfering and cut out days of my weekly release, so I had to make up for it on others. And in the end it gave my work a pretty weird feel, because some panels were very elaborate and close to my vision, while others were on the level of sketches. Yet, I colored them all. I didn't like how non-uniform that looked.
With my current project Sycophant, I realized during the Prologue that I was running into the same issues, even though I gave myself 2 week production schedules for each "page" (Webtoon pages are 10-20k pixels long). And that really bothered me. So after the first part of the prologue I hunkered down and practiced what I needed to and spent more time than before, but doing it all right. Thumbnail, construction, sketch, vector outline, gs, color, shadows and light.
And wow - what a difference! I can't wait to start releasing this first true update. I really understand how much the production method is influenced by the schedule. And on the long run I think this new method doesn't even cost much more time; maybe 1/3rd longer than before. But it's all clean and it elevates my style beyond what I thought possible. Simply by taking more time on each panel I am creating a much more satisfying end result. And have a tighter workflow as a result, too.
there are a bunch of factors.
I think the black and white is part of it. Colouring choices are often divisive and if you make it black and white then you're removing that and focusing on pure tonal contrast. alot of small imperfections becomes less obvious than they would otherwise.
I have seen a number of works both of manga and manga-styled stuff where they were colourised and lost alot of their visual appeal because the colour version was just not very good. one of the major issues being the shading techniques were not suited for colour so the colourised version looked weird where the original looked fine. I imagine if you had them do colour on the original mangas in the timeframes they were working with it would probably not be very good colouring. Although if they were colouring them from the start I'm sure the shading problem would be less so because they would be using techniques better suited.
I also think(for the young audience) it helps to differentiate it from western comics which can feel more kid-orientated. I was never really able to get into western comics beyond a few exceptions because the colourful style reminded me too much of stuff i read as a kid. The black and white style and foreignness(this might be different now that anime is super popular) of manga helped to get past that barrier to take the stories seriously even though in retrospect some of them were absolutely as silly as western comics are.
I also think the focus they have on making fairly middle/high quality anime adaptations helps because it helps to get a foot in the door. I remember watching fullmetal alchemist and then reading the manga after. Alot of western comics stay comics and never get adapted and that creates a barrier to entry because quite frankly reading is harder than watching.
I think it also helps that japanese companies don't really have a very strong legal presence in the west so there are a ton of non-licensed sites that let you read and watch japanese stuff for free, ethically/legally dubious, but it does attract a young fanbase who might not have the money to throw down on stuff *right now* but will in the near future. I remember being much more adventurous with watching and reading habits with japanese stuff because in practical terms it was free. There are alot of those site for marvel comics and others as well so I won't credit that alone, but I do think it's noteworthy that the comics tend to stay up longer but illegal uploads of the cartoon series tend to go down faster than their anime counterparts. Maybe if I had had easier access to something like Batman-T.A.S. or something in the same way I had free access to anime i would have been more interested in western comics.
Also I suspect childhood exposure to studio Ghibli is at play somewhere in this equation.
My Favourite schedule for Japanese comics is monthly. The art is usually better and they have more time to focus on the writing
Also mangakas have a more human life
@@guilhermeferraz9954 Big name mangakas do. Your average mangakas are miserable. Some drop dead for overwork.
@@ezequielrivera5480TBF it's just as arguably as bad for both because those big mangakas have to deal with even more criticism and not being able to write the story what they truly want but rather what others want and kind of loose their manga's story look at JJK and it's ending some don't even get to choose when they end
I love hearing you go deep on comics! Especially this topic of quality vs quantity. I had so many thoughts while listening to this.
One of my biggest problems with some beautiful French comics is the art is so well done it actually detracts from the pace of the storytelling. I find myself so caught up with the visuals I forget what is actually happening on the page. That's not an indictment though, I still want beautiful Bandes dessinées in my collection.
It's unbelievable that Otomo and his assistants where cranking out 40 Akira pages a week! Part of that was while he was also directing the film!! I read somewhere that he just skipped the sketching phase and straight to final pencils then inks.
I think with Nausicaa Miyazaki nailed the balance of manga and French styles with beautiful designs that don't look too labored over. It's a phenomenal work, and no surprise he would go on to become the *Miyazaki* with a capital M that we know today.
Two American artists that are really pushing the medium forward today are James Harren and Daniel Warren Johnson. They are combining Japanese energy with French compositions, all the while giving it a grungy application of ink that reminds me of bronze age comics. Would love to see you break down one of their books.
Lastly, your work on Star Atlas: Core strikes a nice balance like Miyazaki did with Nausicaa. It's beautiful, yet looks efficiently done. Big fan of it.
Great points! James Harren is indeed a composition master. I sometimes look at his work for inspiration even though I’m in a totally different field (preproduction concept design) than comics
Hey Jake! Thanks for checking this one out and leaving your thoughts. I really appreciate it. I feel like I could talk/geek out about comic style forever. I'm sure you can relate to a lot of these ideas with your experience.
I agree that often the detail in some french books makes the reader look at the art vs the story sometimes. Perhaps there is something in the cultural divide there... to stop and breath in the environment a bit. Hard to say. It often lacks the immediacy of something like Manga where you get sucked into the story and really get to live with the characters.
I do tend to re-read BD more than Manga though! I find that I appreciate different things about the story the more I read it. Little bits in the background. Sometimes it feels like there is a tension between reading the story and finding out what happens vs taking in the art and thinking. Alan Moore had said that comics are a unique medium in the way a reader can go back to pages or chapters they have already read and notice new ideas... or they can pause on a panel and think. Gaining new meaning by reading it at their own page. It's possible this way to add layers of meaning (like he did with Watchmen).
Otomo's output was amazing. And it's crazy to think that he was working on the Animated movie for some of that timeline too... Part of me wants to somehow find a way to crank out 20 pages a week without dying from the effort. The idea of drawing a syndicated story like that sounds like so much fun.
I'll check out what James Harren and Daniel Warren Johnson have been up to lately. I remember looking at their work a while back.
Thanks for the kind words about CORE! It is definitely a style focused on efficiency. My goal for a long time has been to try and get something that could work with a monthly 22 page schedule where I am doing absolutely everything. Which doesn't leave that much time for art. CORE is still a lot slower than that but it's getting there.
Often the panels with details are not action scenes. There are details so you can take your time, it's a moment of rest in the story. In Blacksad that we see in the video we see very clearly that the details are there to slow down the sneak around action. When there is "real" action the details disappear to give a greater feeling of dynamism and not delay the reading.
Blacksad takes his time so Juanjo Guarnido draws more detail. If he starts running there will be less detail for more dynamism. The two are linked.
The panels will also be thought of differently. That’s the art of comics.
And I would add that in Franco-Belgian comics there are lots of different styles. The “Ligne Claire” (Like Tintin or "I Killed Ad*lf H*tl*r" by Jason), on the contrary, doesn't seek details or realism. There is no shadow or play of light to highlight what is important or the emotions, a bit like expressionism.
I loved Asgard!!!! Now I completely understand why were you recommending me French Albums for my comic (I'm Chuck Siger, just not logged in with that account this time).
As someone who has a manga serialization and has worked on comics in the west, I think there are a few things that are missing to understand scheduling better:
Many mainstream manga serializations are weekly, BUT it's possible only because there are multiple assistants working alongside the mangaka. For example, Oda (One Piece) has an average of 5 assistants to be able to do weekly releases, and the schedules are connected with a weekly magazine being printed. There are bi-weekly and monthly magazines with different schedules, and such creators tend to have fewer assistants OR, if popular enough, can spend more time creating each page. Also, many times when a volume is released, the art is polished up (Togashi from HxH is famous for that).
I might have missed it, but there is also a major factor to consider when it comes to domestic markets and pricing. A manga volume in Japan is very affordable at around 4-5 USD for 200+ pages, while a 50-page French comic in hardcover costs 30+ euros. On the other hand, an issue of a superhero comic book may cost 5 USD for 20+ pages and 20 USD for 100 pages. It's crucial because if there's more money per unit, more people can get involved, or more time can be allocated to a project. In Japan, a new serialized publication needs to sell 20,000 copies to avoid cancellation. In the West, selling 20,000 units of a trade is considered a great achievement.
Another thing is that most projects right now are not made in real-time - in Japan, you need to "bank" several chapters before you start publication to account for sickness, holidays, etc.; if there is a major success, most creators "eat" what they banked over the years. In the West, when you are not doing a single-issue comic, you can take a lot of time to create for the graphic novel format.
Great video Tim. Really great set of books which I need to get onto asap, I could have watched you go through your collection for hours :). Hopefully can get English translations of the BD? I'm not too familiar with it so looking forward to discovering and experiencing them. It just shows that having a diverse collection/interest in different genres/styles can really open up the imagination and open doors for your own creativity. Even if you don't like the look of it at first, things can change your mind.
Yeah you can often get english translations of French books digitally. Or at least they were often available through the old comixology which is now folded into Amazon Kindle... I haven't checked what is on there lately (sometimes those publishing deals can be tricky and stuff disappears from sale). Thanks for the kind words! I'm glad this video was entertaining :)
THANK YOU for making videos about this kind of thing, it's hard to find good in depth discussion of comic art making beyond basic stuff
Thank you Tim! I've been waiting for you to tackle differences between formats-between different countries. I'm most especially interested in French/European comics as they are bigger and have much more panel-to-page ratio than your average comic. Plus the art is painstakenly gooood
More panels do not make for better storytelling.
@rockon8174 same is also true for less panels and smaller pages. One if the things I appreciate about good Franco Belgian comics is that the size of the page means that the artist and writer are able to fully explore a story through storytelling, word balloons and captions, and artistic detail without having to stretch what could be a 64 page book into a tankobon with potentially worse art
@@rockon8174 nowhere in my comment said that more panels are better for storytelling. im just stating my interest
This video is everything that I love about this channel. Long form content, in depth look and nerding out about comics.
God bless you Tim!
There's something about the black and white pen and ink style of Manga that has always appealed to me. I never got into western comics because super heros never appealed to me and the colored comics just sort of turned me off. European ones were a bit better, but something about Manga specifically called to me.
Also, regarding the (false) belief that Manga artists can't do detailed art and so are drawn to weekly manga work is easily debunked when looking at artists like Murata, whose work is stunning when judged by any comic standard, western or otherwise.
Thanks again for an insightful video! The thought that comic style is influenced by production speed certainly makes sense, but had never occurred to me before.
This was so helpful! I’ve been struggling with my comic schedule for a while and didn’t even realize that it was because I was trying to tell a manga-inspired story (super long) but with a western art style slowing me down! I’ll definitely start studying some methods for prioritizing speed while still looking appealing from my favorite manga artists
I've been learning how to do picture books, and I definitely get what you mean about the speed of the drawing giving it a looser stylized look. Normally, I do more detailed slower drawings, but I'm really liking the feeling and organic look I can get drawing in this way--not to mention the faster output being a huge plus!
So proud of you, Tim! It's been a joy watching your art journey over the years. Love your channel! Always wished we would have worked on something (This is Marcus White).
This was brilliant - I've been thinking about this for years, how comic art, story and structures are shaped by commercial formats in a certain location. Once established, artists idea of what comics are/can be is framed by these industry conventions, and it becomes a self perpetuating system. Another category outside of printed comics is web comics - there both format and commercial considerations again shape content.
Big fan of the new hybrid model touched on at the end (being from Adelaide - delighted to see Jason Pamment featured too!). These days creators have easier access to a far broader range of influences and formats than back in the day.
Your comment about losing a lot of energy when spending more time on an image has definitely rung true for me, for many reasons.
Not only does the sketchy quality of simpler linework help with the "energy" and sense of motion, it takes a lot more effort to preserve the gestural quality imbued into art at the initial sketch. It can be done, but it is like that "extra 80% effort going towards 20% of product" problem.
Also, I think that more "polished" artwork tends to look more like a snapshot in time, and takes more effort for the reader to imagine the figure in motion. When I am reading a comic or manga, It is easier for me to fill in the gaps with simpler designs and artwork (sometimes, not always). In manga, I find that it sometimes happens without me even noticing.
More detail also causes me to slow down. I might have to read the artwork more carefully to understand what is going on, or it may be because I want to take the time to appreciate the effort.... either way, for me, it slows the pacing.
TLDR certain, simpler art styles are better at preserving gestural quality, may be easier for readers to imagine in motion and may even encourage readers to automatically fill in the gaps themselves. It also effects pacing.
I don't fully buy that. With more detailed comics, you simply have to use different techniques to make the sense of motion come thru. For example using smaller close-up frames, or intercutting wider shots with a close up on a single panel, without edges between them. Eg. Monsters shown from one perspective in the upper and lower corners of a panel, while the center of the panel is divided by a detailed close-up of a pistol, drawn from it's own perspective, all In a single panel.
It's tough for me to describe this by text, but yeah, detailed comics have their own methods of achieving an equal sense of momentum. And they do so while looking better (imo) than most simpler styles, by virtue of being more detailed and beautiful than a bunch of sketch lines with gradients or dotted patterns overlaid between them.
I have all Blueberry as CBR files!!! I'm taking a look at "dust" right now! I will look for Asgard as well
Talking about Blueberry....the difference in style from "Chihuahua Pearl" to "Ok Corral" or "Dust" is remarkable
the orcs and goblins series from a bunch of French artist really blew me away. I want to make my own novel series, and I really wanted to make a blend between Joe Mads work, and something more detailed but I couldn't figure out how far I could go. Then when I found the Mage, Dwarves, Orcs and Goblins, etc. series from the French artist it really blew me away. I only wish they had printed English versions.
It’s vitally important to consider what you enjoy when doing art, & the timeframe you like to spend on each piece. Beginners may not know this. When I started out, I worked primarily in illustration, but the better I got, the higher paid & in depth the work got. For example if you’re painting splash, you have several phases for that illustration & it can go on for weeks. For me that was torture. I tried every trick in the book to make it bearable, eg, doing each part of an illustration semi-separately to treat it as a series of works rather than just 1; having multiple freelance illustrations going on & cycling through them, etc. But I felt so burned out that every time I finished one of these, I’d never want to see the subject again. 😂
Ultimately I gravitated to concept design where I do preproduction environments & characters. I still do some longer term works (for example I paint murals on the side) & occasionally take a freelance illustration if it’s a 1-off book or game cover where I want to maintain a relationship with the publisher. I don’t get burned out if I’m drawing different things. I’m not saying this is best for everyone, though. Many artists really love getting to dedicate a longtime on a piece, rendering multiple light sources on hair & scales for weeks. They take pride in knowing they painted a loading screen or marketing illustration for a popular character skin in a game. I just never felt the reward from that, I’m more the type who likes the act of drawing a design & composition
Thanks for this eye opening video.
If you want manga art that triumphs western or French comics. Check out Vagabond , Sunken rock or One punch man.
There are a lot of manga beyond those that have spectacular art. Berserk has some of the best art of any comic.
@@4566Iggy Sure thing
Well, there is really, really well known a time once you've been in the anime sphere for a while, but the real question here's when you will get another beserk
as much as I love manga art. I feel too many manga fans dismiss western art/artist or use their love of manga to sh*t on western art. Let's not act like western artists like Frank Frazzeta, Juan Guimenez, or Dan Mora never existed lol.
@@BRINGTHENERFHERDERS You forgot Moebius sir, but yea people forgot how great western artist were. But many of the modern western artist pale to their predecessors.
Found your channel a couple months ago and I love every one of your videos! I struggle a lot still with finding my style, especially since I want to do both comics and concept art, but I appreciate your insight and your videos are so inspiring:)
Amazing video comparing different comic book styles
Good discussion Tim, I appreciate the insight. It’s something I hadn’t fully considered with comics, but it makes sense. Thank you for the video
Thanks, Tim. It is interesting to learn about the conditions that have shaped the visual styles. I'm waiting for more videos like this.
Very interesting video and great examples for comparison 💪
Italian comics are an interesting middle ground between all of these.
European comics are generally more interesting and versatile than their Pacific Ring counterparts. American and Asian comics are more present on social media, thus for someone outside it looks like Europe is lacking behind, when it isn't the case at all. We are less online active on that front l, because of the European tradition of community sharing in real life, rather than loudly announcing and talking about our comics and art everywhere.
@@Slawa_SaporogezI've seen plenty of European comic artists promote their works online. Mangaka and European comic artists have a lot in common in how they promote work. There have been a lot of cultural exchanges between the two. BD in particular has been heavily influenced by manga much like Manga was influenced by BD.
@@4566Iggy Any idea were to buy European comics online?
@@ezequielrivera5480 Darkhorse publishes several.
Really great insight, I love the emphasis on the time-frame having a big impact on the end product, even the style. This was a very thorough explanation of the core aesthetic diffrences of these markets. I learned a lot.
As a side note of interest, as an outsider, I'm curious how you found work in the French market?
great video, as always
That's always been my issue with some western comics. The artwork is hyper detailed and extremely impressive from a technical and artistic viewpoint, however, the panels are so busy and there is so much visual information to process that it bogs the reader down with unnecessary detail and makes reading feel like a chore. Thankfully, not all western comics fit that stereotype. There are several successful western comics that use a simplified style. The Maxx, Hellboy, and Grendel are a few examples. Look at the Alien Vs Predator omnibus as another good example. Archie comics also has a house style that is very simple that flows extremely well. Of course, I can't forget about Tank Girl, lol!
That’s an interesting opinion to read. I think it’s all what you’re familiar with. In good western comics, all that detail is meant to be part of the storytelling. The backgrounds are meant for worldbuilding & even communicating relationships between side characters if you see them interacting for example. To absorb that, the reading process is indeed slower, but it’s bc you’re meant to be absorbing more info. Ofc empty/ pointless detail shouldn’t be included.
In manga I often feel the panels are so empty & things are a bit… dragged out, for lack of a better term. They will often show the talking heads having dialogue which leaves me wondering why draw this?
Archie’s do seem like the perfect medium. But the reason they’re able to be done that way is bc the worldbuilding is quite simple, the settings are repeated, & the stories are character-driven comedy/ slice-of-life. I do agree it’s the most accessible of Western comics, which is likely why it’s sold the most for the longest, in aggregate (along with Disney comics, IIRC)
thanks!
Hiroaki Samura doesn't publish weekly. He has a monthly schedule. Weekly would be something like Naruto, which has more simple artstyle.
That's good to know! Thanks!
Grear video, I noticed with alot of asian art not just in manga but also illustrations and concept art it seems to have this contained flowiness. Idek if im explaining it right but that's the thing that made me obsessed with Asian art as a kid and I'm still trying to figure how to do it in my own art lol.
thanks
This video also tell about speed/style relation:
m.th-cam.com/video/OLsp_df9nrk/w-d-xo.html
Say about 2 minutes in video Alex Toth, John Buscema, John Ramita create 2 or 3 US style superhero comics each month (but no tell how many pages).
👍
Should've included your comics in I don't own them yet, but of the videos you've shown them in, they look gorgeous. Also I love that you made this video. You broke it down beautifully but simple, especially with how the speed makes the style what it is. I'm working on simpler comics with my incredibly limited skills myself in hopes to one day take on a project I've been building for years, and this is very inspiring and a video I'll definitely come back too. All your videos are interesting and your artwork is also inspiring. I very much appreciate these!