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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 22 มิ.ย. 2024
- Final day at the dyno went amazing and we ended of making the most horsepower the Sorceress has ever made... until we hurt a head gasket on the final pull right before it made 4756HP!!!
Shoutout to everyone involved the amount we have learned in the last couple dyno sessions has been absolutely amazing!!!
Thank you to:
The Sorceress team
Shane Tecklenburg
Ben with @EFIUniversity1
ARP
Manton
M&M Transmissions
Harts Turbo
Jesel
Larry Larson
DSX Tuning
and many more!
We've logged hundreds of high boost dyno pulls using water injection, we found putting the water pre-turbo tremendously limits compressor flow by displacing air molecules with water plus slowing down the turbo rotor speed as the compressor crashes into heavy water particles. We understand that the water in this session was an after thought and the data is great, but next time put the water into a nitrous tank and use nitrous or CO2 to pressurize the tank and regular nitrous solenoids and nozzles to inject it post turbo. You'll still incure some airflow penalties displacing intake air charge with water, as the exhaust will go richer when water activates, but you'll get way more out of your turbo system injecting all water post turbo. Great video, thanks for sharing data and educating everyone!!
EXCELLENT input!!! Thank you for sharing that
Really good explanation of what's happening inside the cold-side of the engine
I love that one of my favorite channels just replied to one of my other favorite channels.
18 inches post the Turbo.
Love both what this video has shared, but also what you've added here - definitely stuff that got me head scratching about it.
Something I've wondered about in addition to what you've mentioned here, I've often wondered how much benefit there would be to actually just venting some "unneeded" intercooled boost air back into the compressor in the same way the water is being done here by way of that exact same boost - just without water in the way.
In my head if a small amount of 60psi+ air that has been cooled from hundreds of degrees down to closer to ambient temperature is then allowed to expand to ambient at the compressor inlet, the resulting speed and temperature would potentially give a bit of air-entrainment effect but at the least possibly do a slight bit to drop the pre-turbo air temperature while not putting more load on the compressor by offsetting useful air.
Has this ever been considered or tried? I feel like anti-surge ports are a bit like a passive version of this but with some strategy to it when the compressor is operating in an efficient area there *COULD* be some benefit. Tho on that note, I'm not sure if this car actually is intercooled
I am just a basic truck guy trying to build a 49 Chevy with 1200 horsepower. I'm still short a turbo. All I keep saying is, man you spend more time on the dyno than the track or the street. But now I get it. You are all about r&d. And by doing so you have gained major horsepower with less boost. I have followed you from day one when you powered up your windows at the track. I f****** love it guys. Thanks for sharing.
So much knowldge and wisdom in one room, fascinating to hear all the real intricate details about tuning!
Very , very impressive !! My hat is off to all of your team ( I have always believed in water injection ). Many thanks for this video.
All you guys are amazing in your explanations and effort, this car is such an animal and cant wait to see its new times at the track
Awesome, thanks for sharing, I can't wait to see more!
Wow! Truly inspiring. Thanks for all the sharing y'all do. Y'all take care.
So much information in this video. Big thanks for that!
Fair play ❤ I love watching your open door attitude to sharing information on the very high end of drag engines, it's refreshing to see the honesty in the success and failure of a project reaching for the moon!! Very cool and so amazing to be on the journey with you thankyou team sorceress!!! Best TH-cam out there from a humble engine builder in the UK 😂
So good. $500k worth of equipment and checking plugs/drilling jets... 😄 Back in the 80s, I was using stock Toyota mechanical secondary carburetors on turbo engines. No jets were available, so...yep. Bigger drill bit. Loving the logarithmic combustion analysis.
Love these videos. The car and total team are amazing.
Grats! Very interesting journey. Good luck in the future.
its awesome seeing a hub hold that thing
Thats pretty interesting to hear about that water injection definitely different
Your water nozzle is dribbling after you let off the throttle. Tank needs a small bleed hole drilled up top to allow the tank pressure too drop as boost drops. Exair makes an HVLP spray head that works well and zero compressor damage. I love this series of tuning videos! Hope to meet you gurus some day and chew the fat!
👍
So much knowledge
Check valve. 😉
@@user-eo9ht6li7g check valve as in - under a certain psi it won’t flow?
Or the check valve is doing the dribbling after off throttle?
certainly looks like a lot of dribble, maybe they're just at that age ? But dribbles onto the race track....some people may not be so happy about that. It either needs a more suitable system, or protection so that no water ever can hit the track. The check valve doesn't seem to be checking properly ?
@@idus yeah you always use a check valve. I use .05 psi .
So any thing over .05psi opens the check valve then closes with system shuts off . NO Dribble!
We use a 250htz high speed value connected to the number 1 fuel injector. So we can progress the water with the fuel.
Drag car not so much.
But you have to compasate for the volume of water going through your turbine housing.
Once back pressure gets higher than manifold pressure you have to have zero overlap on your cam timing. 😉
The check valve in the system turned out to have a higher pressure than the boost at which we wanted the water to be active. So I took it out of the system and moved the tank down to the front wheel so it wouldn’t gravity feed. The concept was to see if the water was a workable solution, and later we could address control and the leaks etc.
thanks for posting this - it means a lot
Ugh, Shane! When you pin the wastegates shut, you may get one good pull! It either comes out the top, or bottom! Maybe you should make those Shane T shirts will full send on them 😜😜😜😜! What did the cylinder pressure look like on the last pull? I would also be maging the crankshafts, especially with all the violence that engine has seen! Can’t wait to see him run again 👍🏻👍🏻👍🏻👍🏻! Rod, if you don’t have the best guys there now, I don’t know where you would find better! Good job Guys!
Magnaflux I think would be a must on something like this
The way the editing was done it makes it seem as though closing the wastegate is what made the engine fail the gaskets. But in reality the wastegates were shut several runs before. What made the engine fail was a massive jump in ignition timing to try and get the CA50 values in the cylinder pressure analysis to be at their optimum angle.
U guys r always helping move the sport forward tru education as in Detination in todays vid thanks guys awesome awesome vid, @ 21:10 thats the pure definition of efficiency 1000 more ponies at less boost fuck me thats so rarely happens wow great werk and the motor is still continuing to work boys class is in session
So interesting watching pros dial in tune and walk that razor love it
This car is incredible!
That turbo shot was insane
Can't wait to see it run on a track soon!
Nice work boys. Max love from New Zealand. Thanks for the wicked videos. Im off to slap a boost referenced water injection on my car :)
Absolutely fascinating, brilliant description of pre ignition and knock. 4700 hp! Not sure how you will get that to the track especially your now spraying water under the car. 👍👍👍
Boost entered the cooling system and blew the radiator part fn crazy
This is the style of nozzle I use on my evo 8.
Adjustable needle for water flow, works well.
Youll need a solenoid to control this one on the water inlet. Hope this helps. I believe i have a short vid on my channel of it operating
I'd love more info on your setup. I have a FP Black powered 92 GSX and I'm looking to do something similar
Wow, that is crazy power. Love the tech insights, learning a lot. Thanks for sharing! What's the plan for racing it with the water injection? It's crazy the amount of mist that is not sucked into the turbo or how it expels the mist when the throttle is shut.
That dancing fire extinguisher was a hoot.
What is amazing is we are a long ways off the limits of hp with engines like this, in 5 years we will be over 6k hp
Moran has already made over 6k
As a tuner, seeing the pressure graph of preignition vs detonation is very eye opening. I have very limited experience on Methanol, and I honestly didn't know that preignition wasn't always detectable on a knock sensor. One stupid question though...I'm guessing preignition is still audible through electronic det cans? Absolutely phenomenal work to everyone involved, what a badass project.
The water injection used like this is new to me. I think I have a grasp, you are using the water in a way to cool the overall combustion mixture to allow more boost which adds more heat. This is your way of cooling it. You were then able to keep adding boost without overheating. I really was impressed in the R&D done with the valve train with the cameras and actually seeing the components deflect under load. The Spin Tron is an incredible piece of equipment. It allows full load on components without using the combustion process as the power source saving money and much safer pull after pull. You guys are an intelligent group that function well together, I love all of it.
Yes, but not sharp like knock. It's a deep rumble. Problem is...if you get into it far enough where you can hear it, it usually ends in a hole in a piston before you can pull it back.
I really like the honesty in these videos.
I am a bit suprized that the radiator balooned. Are not all of these extreme hp engines dry decked?
What are your plans on addressing the water not making it into the turbo and onto the ground, great pulls by the way.👍
Pre turbo water injection is the best way to make a small turbo lag like a big turbo and make 80% of its rated max power. Watch the turbo speed when the water hits, and the EMAP climb when the water acts like a brake and slows down the back wheel. Need to do post turbo injection and you’ll see benefits without the losses.
Definitely some cylinder pressure to turn the radiator into a balloon. Hopefully the block and head aren’t too badly lanced.
Neither the Turbo Speed nor the exhaust manifold pressure are affected as you suggest.
@@TunedbyShaneT wild. Must be magical. I guess when it’s dribbling water basically immediately you’ll never see the speed drop. But on a proper system actually using a solenoid you can see a noticeable drop off. Like power driven diesel has also seen.
Possible that the capacity of the turbo has something to do with it. We ran it back to back at a lower boost and saw no change in turbo speed or emap.
@@TunedbyShaneT interesting, 106mm definitely shows a noticeable drop in speed and EMAP hump on activation.
Any idea what the coolant pressure went to when it turned that radiator into a balloon? Hopefully see a 5k number shortly all things going well.
@@alexmann3309 it’s not got coolant pressure sensor but yeah to ball park Frank that rad that way it obviously had some.
Maybe we just didn’t have enough water to make the impact that you have seen with your combination.
Anyway I’m fairly convinced the only right way is to cool the charge with an intercooler so I think that is the next test.
The misfire on the passenger side started a backfire that pushed a boost spike into the engine, again on the passenger side, blowing out #8, because the boost was a pressure spike from the backfire.
I recommend a New design head with dual spark plugs, double the coil size, and/or increase dwell.
That misfire and boost spike cost you an engine.
A pressure sensor at the compressor outlet with high enough response time to shut the engine down before the pressure wave reaches the TB could be a viable strategy to prevent boost spikes entering the engine.
Blew out the spark.
Shove a Gopro in the intake and see if the intake is puddling with water.
i love this channel! learn alot and very very impressive numbers!
My total wheel hp is your wheel hp gain. Good work fellas. Definetly did not see the water injection coming, im intrigued. Might have to go pick up a super soaker for this little s400. 😅
If theres a catch, maybe its what rpm to turn it on? Cooling is one benefit, but also the expansion rate of water to steam is phenomenal. I would think water off at idle allows moisture bake off from the crankcase, and maybe instead of jetting, a stepper motor & needle valve combo might be tunable with its own rpm curve?
I would have loved to have seen the cylinder pressure graph on one of the big pulls
Looks like a funny car 😀
You need proper air atomiser nozzles if you aren't going to run high pressure pumps for the water. Spray systems and many other do them, even some paint spray mixers would be a significant improvement.
Dyno Numbers are cool...
Winners circle pictures are ALOT cooler!
Is there a point where the static compression doesn't make a difference when you pass a certain boost threshold
love the knowledge your letting out
Bro, I don't think Ron Davis is going to warranty that radiator! I've seen a lot of things, but that radiator came apart in unexpected ways! And this not repeatable power......well if you have a "trailer full parts", I guess it is.
What combustion analysis software are you utilizing? Great videos! Tons of info!
Plex PCA 2000
bring it to Empire in NY, would love to see it compete against the Pro Mod,s here in August
Still doing the cylinder pressure analysis / logging?
Oops, should have waited to ask…
Fascinating stuff.
Great explanation of pre ignition v. detonation.
How accessible is this technology, as it would seem to be a game changer in engine development?
Would love for Ben to expound on this topic.
Plex Tuning PCA-2000, it's available to anyone. It's not cheap, but relatively speaking, not expensive either. The sensors can be quite fragile apparently though
It is accessible. The logging system (Plex PCA 2000) is available to anyone, the transducers and amplifiers to run them are not as easily accessed but they are available. All it takes is $$
any thoughts on whether any of that water could get under the rear slicks during a run? Especially some puddling during shutdown?
I would like to know what was the intake air temperature charge before the water injection. Verses after the water injection. How much did the water injection lower the air intake temperature. That is probably the problem you're having with the detonation. Is the air intake temperature is so hot. Due to not having an intercooler on this vehicle even though it is on alcohol or methanol whichever fuel you are running. You're already at the detonation threshold
Add some alcohol to the water. It more effectively cools the charge air!!!
Use a BANKS POWER SPIN water/alcohol injection nozzle (they work at supersonic injection speed; hence better atomized mist and better cooling!!!)!!!🌊💙💜😎
Water methanol does not have the ability to absorb as much heat as water itself. Thanks for checking out our video 👊🏻
Shane has the best explanations because he just knows.
what's the air density post compressor? it doesn't look like you use a charge air cooler- wouldn't that help with detonation/knock?
Hope the engine has a strong bottom end ...
Great! Take it to Bradenton, the Texas Mile, Bonneville or some such place, and Show us How much of that power is Usable. Thanks for sharing.
A true test will do like SICK WEEK, DRAG WEEK or Midwest Drags with it. See if it can take the stress of a Drag n Drive. The water isnt new. I did it on a car i raced to cool the fuel air mix going in and the little moisture raised my HP. Kind of like a water/Meth injection. Everyone knows cooling the air going in helps knock and hp. Thats what you are doing
Do yall not run a coolant pressure sensor with a safety set up? Seems like it started to pressurize coolant system early in the run and maybe could've saved some parts. Just my 2cents
No, we don’t run a sensor or a “safety” as we have found them to be ineffective at “saving” engines at this level when they cross the threshold by this amount.
🤯🤯🤯🤯🤯🤯🤯
Atomize the water with a "fogjet" ? What do you think?
how can you have detonation after the spark event? isn't everything in the cylinder burned after the spark event?
ONE PRO TIP!!!!...on these cars....add a pressure sensor on the radiator and an air pressure sensor in the sump..to cut the engin before major damage occurs.. broken head gasket = excessive radiator pressure... boom cut out... broken piston rings = excessive blow by....excessive air pressure in sump from head gasket to oil ports.. boom cut out before major damage.... HOPE YOU READ THIS.....PS Excellent progress..
At this power level, would those precautions even work?
Maybe lower power levels. I would like to think these guys are beyond silly engine blowing mistakes however we are only human and saving a 100k engine after all is tuned and running optimal is worth the insurance. Idk. I might implement your suggestions on my car. Good info I didn’t think of.
@idus oh yes, it'll help for sure.. replay the video again at the last run and focus on the radiator.. tell me how long before the pop do you see the squinting starts.😜
In nearly every case on an engine running under these conditions, the sensors do NOT save the damage from happening and merely make it easier to pinpoint in the data afterward, where the problem occurred.
@TunedbyShaneT How many cars do you have with pressure sensors in the radiator and sump? Please share your data.. and when the undesirable pressure level is trigger by the sensor does it completely cut ignition or feul or both? Or just pull back on timing?
@@RG-lq9de I don’t bother with it any more we used to use it in the sport compact stuff as it had water jackets but in every case it had the gasket out or the head lifted and the engine damaged even with the cut(we just turned the limiter on to shut it off)
The problem seems to be that when you have one running at this output level when it decides it’s done, it’s damaged itself already when you see the data in the trace.
It’s a functional solution as long as you are “tickling” the edge but when you run past it as we did here, you are not stopping it from getting hurt.
Great explanation on pre-ignition vs detonation. Shane just cracks me up. Love it.
If You can follow some actual accurate, technical, proper explanation, details about water injection, see David Vizard Power Tec 10 videos with a proper explanation.
David is a [er research, development, design engineer that was specifically involved with development with a production version water injections system for Chrysler/Mopar 50 years ago, along with use within racing engines,along with many other aspects still currently.
All The Best, Sincerely
Its not the only thing, but wave theory knowledge does enhance an understanding of detonation events. In the radio frequency world, a properly tuned & maintained system works. But, a damaged tuning coupler or waveguide and power is reflected back into the system. An engine cannot avoid reflected power of a sonic wave, only cope with it - its an exercise in much the same phenomenon of a standing [radio] wave. So lets pick the simplest example of what most of us have likely seen: waves on the water. Sometimes they are traveling different directions, and when swells intersect, the combined energy results in a high point. In an RF system this is called standing wave - as a ratio. So why the mention of RF? Because to test a system without broadcasting, a dummy load is used in place of the antenna. For a waveguide, that load has an internal pyramid like taper that will absorb/attenuate the energy and prevent big power reflection. The thing in modern head design that does much the same thing to sonic waves? Chamber "softening" - something between 1.5 and 3 degrees taper seems to be what works from what I can gather... but a designer I am not. Prior to this innovation, head porters/designers would adjust chamber shape if a design proved detonation prone, noting the sonic wave outruns the flame kernel and reflecting/recombining to the point where it, combined with other factors of heat & mixture, allow one or more extra & unwanted combustion points that cause peak cylinder pressure to happen too early vs crank position.
Fighting/fixing detonation can be a long battle... very long, or much of this would have been well sorted in 60's.
Every combo has its limits... you guys are doing great - love the tech.
Use o injetor de água, logo após a roda do compressor do turbo assim evita vibrações indesejadas no turbo...
That would then require some motive force to exceed the boost pressure in order to inject it. Far beyond the scope of our quick test on the dyno for viability. Thanks for watching our video.
What is the displacement of this sweet ass motor?
Red shoes?
Dyno queen....lmfao
What brand engine is this ?
Sorceress
I have to say amazing content but I’m really surprised this is not dry decked at this power level, it’s a serious safety issue, you lose a gasket on the track and dump water on the tires and you’re going for a ride
When you rev do a pull it's literally like it has lungs taking in a deep breath of fresh air and its lungs are expanding. It's ALIVE
Lean out at highest rpms
Again great stuff> the educational factor alone of the videos with all involved should not be taken lightly > Thanks
Love watching videos of stuff I'll never be able to afford 😂
Maybe you should get that gorilla a girlfriend make him really happy
Why aren’t other racers doing this kind of testing? Seems like most of the pro mod and NPK guys are just guessing in the blind. No one, that I am aware of is analyzing this kind of data.
4700 HP doesn't do you any good if you can't keep it together !!!!!
Cleetus needs this engine program in everyone of his race cars!!!
Why, his engines are dry deck and don't blow water under the tyre
Doesnt matter how much HP your car makes, if you cant get it down the track consistently...
Bad a$$ Chanel if you like how stuff works theses guys explain to the tee
Personally feel that stopping short of “Kill”, y’all will see more W’s for dependability. Seems most of y’all’s competitors will take themselves out…
To much back pressure and to much cam timing overlap. 😳
Seems kind of low it’s not even making 10,000 hp. I would start all over.
loan me some money so i can go make 1400 off of summit pistons and rods so i can go destroy my local racing community please lol
Substitute an SMX BLOCK FROM STEVE MORRIS!!!😎
wot was that that floated around or fell off under the headers in vid at 4.20sec
@oldmansgarage
Atomize the water with a "fogjet" ? What do you think?