Why does this musket have a strange spring lock? With firearms expert Jonathan Ferguson.
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 28 ก.ย. 2024
- Revolutionary France faced a problem: How could it mass produce cheap firearms with a shortage of heavy machinery and skilled gunsmiths? The answer: this thing.
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A weird, French firearm? I won't be suprised if Ian appears from offscreen and takes over the video while being extremely happy
Normally that's what I'd be waiting for so I could see how it works. Simplified for whitesmiths hmm what would a blacksmiths lock look like.
With the full demonstration of the mechanism included, this video is basically Extra Forgotten Weapons.
There are so many forgotten weapons 🤣
@@johnharris6589 you hit it with an hammer
Jokes aside, probably it would be a "matchlock"
Made by famed tinkerer Williard Aftonne no less!
I have a request for Mr. Ferguson, seeing as you are the keeper of firearms AND Artillery, do you guys have any interesting pieces of artillery in your collection we could see? I love these videos please keep them up, utterly fascinating to see all the different ideas that have been presented to the world.
I bet he can lay hands on a cannon, at least.
Fort Nelson, just north of Portsmouth, houses the Royal Armories collection of artillery and historic cannon. Been a while since I visited but it was fascinating. The website states over 700 pieces of artillery spanning 600 years.
@@gwtpictgwtpict4214 I went just before lockdown, they have some really nice decorated cannons as well as a very sad looking Achilles turret.
There is always a special place in my heart for fancy antique guns, that look like the baroque equivalent of something invented in a crackshag.
What's a crackshag? A drug-fueled orgy?
Thanks Jonathan and team - that design gives a whole new meaning to "coilgun" 😃
When Gun Jesus visits, I would lock that up or swap it for his soul
I figure they just give him a full cavity search before they let him leave. Then it doesn't really matter what he tries to pick up.
This looks like one of those weapons that are made by people who aren't soldiers
What can you tell of the rumored UK's SMG tests conducted during late 30's for UK military? I have heard that e.g. the Suomi m/31 with front legs you have there in IWM reference collection was one of the SMGs that were tested and evaluated with e.g. Thompson SMG.
I have experience as metal worker myself.
If i look at this spiral spring and how to make it.
Other types of spring are easier to make, in my opinion.
What could be the decisive factor is the heat treatment.
I just commented the same thing. I wonder if it isn't metallurgical - would a clock spring be more tolerant to inconsistencies in the steel vs a V spring?
@@chemistrykrang8065 It makes sense to focus on resistance against production inconsistencies when moving towards mass production, although I have no idea how spiral springs fare against other types. If the intention was that the gun could be made at a much larger number of local workshops than before, that would also make oversight over the production line and various forms of quality control much more difficult.
@@chemistrykrang8065 I don't know, sorry. Only a engineer can answer that.
My basic study in engineering was 15 years ago. Forgot to much.
Another explanation, although I don’t have any specific proof, is that it might have been a weird guild thing. The guild system had not yet been abolished in 1790, so it might just have been that the more numerous whitesmiths made spiral springs and locksmiths made other springs for some arcane, outdated reason.
@@johanmilde Possibly the thinking was that yes a separate guild would possess a considerable stock of already made clock springs therefore this Rube Goldberg ridiculosity would allow the use of people and product not normally associated with gunsmithing. At least this part of creating a musket.
Colonial Williamsburg has here on TH-cam a series from scrap metal to completed civilian hunting firearm. It is many many hours of one man performing a truly skilled trade of many individual steps. The lock mechanism takes only a small part of such steps,the traditional v-springs are much simpler to make than this coil,a precision manufacture that I doubt anyone modern could duplicate without years of experimentation.
So to me it makes no sense. There are so many different steps,which then are the steps that take the most time and effort ? Not this I would think.
Taking an already skilled master tradesman,requiring him to add and tinker with all the extra steps from clockspring to the flint dog striking the frizzen, makes absolutely no sense.
So was this desperation,even a few extra muskets being better than none,or was someone creating this as a statement of unusual master tradesman ability ? As in,"I can do this and no one else can" ? It is beautiful in its own way,but eccentric beyond belief.
How accurate and reproducible is the strike ? Surely the spring has wobble and give ,no ?
Beautiful but absolutely bizarre.
Due to the difficult cocking and priming this looks like something you'd use behind cover. When under siege or behind a barricade.
Royal Armouries needs to get this man a better mic set up. Cool video anyways though.
I'm sure I can hear faint music in the background on several of the videos in this series.
@@derekp2674 Yeah and or background noises. Its a functional and working museum so its bound to happen. But I think he is worth a microphone.
Even if it's a lapel microphone that'll sort out the audio issues
I think the "Royal" part of the Armouries should prove themselves noble and kick in the cash to get at least a room set up as a basic video studio. Not only would it give Jonathan's videos but also any interview-style or tabletop show-and-tell videos.
@@johnladuke6475 I see many TH-camrs seem to use RØDE microphones and other audio kit in a whole variety of environments. Personally, I enjoy seeing Jonathan and co filming from within their storerooms.
It has a spring lock to spring a surprise on the owners enemies.
Could we maybe sometime have demonstrations of you firing various firearms? Pretty please
Very unlikely with a museum piece. Although they have been known to loan out pieces for reenactment battles and proof test reproductions for reenactment societies. Rarely,
The piece I'm thinking of is a twelve pouinder called Barak, and this info is decades old, mind you.
what happened to the amanda show
Oh hell this came out on my birthday, happy late birthday to me for finding this I suppose. (Also thanks for the vid, always entertaining!)
Wonderful as always, interesting piece.
it would be cool to see if the spring was comparable to a commonly used size of clock spring at the time, especially if to the extent such springs could be canibalized, the reason it was so drastically simplified to the point of impracticality was probably to establish just how much you could remove, i'd imagine if they'd put the plan into use they'd have most likely opted to add a more conventional trigger, preferably with some kind of spring even if just a weak one to help the sear engage
A very-early French Revolution era last-ditch gun! I never knew these existed so early!
Actually many Japanese tanegashima matchlock musket uses windup springs.
Kept as an example of what not to make.
audio seems a little off on this video
Should have got the Swiss Cuckoo upgrade
Seems like a cheap wheel lock, which is unique in itself, they were usually expensive. But I don't think it is. Maybe for use with gloves. Maybe made with found parts.
Very french indeed.. An interesting piece, and unnesseserily complicated, even for its day.
Keep up the great work 💪
I very much prefer when you talk about these older, pre-20th century guns. I find them are far more interesting. There is much more experimentation involved. By the time WW1 is starting, everything has become much more standardized and manufactured.
There's a very artistic sense to this weapon. But gosh is it odd in form.
Would this really be simpler to make than a conventional mainspring?
Yo can I donate a microphone to this museum haha. I love your guys’s vids but the audio quality leaves a little to be desired. Also, I’m not kidding, can I send a microphone to you guys.
I have to wonder how many accidental discharges happened when using this thing under fire, fiddling about with that trigger system.
I was half expecting Ian to show up and push Johnathan off to side and take over filming the episode. But what an interesting gun nevertheless
How would that be any easier to make than a standard gun lock? Anyone who could make that should be able to duplicate flintlock parts.
" im here to explain why its like this ..............................its french " enough said thank you for the video 😁
I don't think that this lock, with its two spiral springs is simpler than a "de patilla" (miquelet) lock.
Frankly, if someone handed me that in the late 1700s, I think I'd just take my chances with a sabre
I know why. It goes off when coffee and cake are served! No?
“French clock spring musket” it’s a clock lock musket lol
better to stay with matchlock in this last ditch scenario
I wonder if ya have any afghan rifles those are some seriously good furniture at least the stock! But awesome french mosquet
Could this have been made for a disabled person, considering the strange trigger?
Is that a calculator watch? wernt they made about the same time as the gun lol
this is what happens when you put non gunmakers to make guns
🤯🤷♀️
Ian, what happened to your hair and why are you speaking in an English accent?
:)
“To start with this is French”…yeah, that makes perfect sense.
The french are good for three things! 🥖🍟🥖
Yeah it’s quite sensible. Clearly the gun was designed to be easily dropped so as to not hamper retreats.
It's a good job Lloyd from lindibeige wasn't doing this... "to start with, this is French. ( throws it over his shoulder, wipes his hands ) goodbye" ....
The french copy no one...and no one copies the french.
@@Strawberry92fs *stares intently at you in Chad*
Clock spring musket, jonathan?
Just call it by its street name: the Time Piece.
Touché
Of course, that's just the name for the musket on it's own .
When combined with an ammo pouch full of lead shot, it is more often called the "Clock and Balls."
Oh very good.
@@peterclarke7240 Very poetic lmao
I love these sort of last ditch type weapons, designed to be easy to produce in times of war. They always have such creative design.
The triger seems oddly similar to a crossbow.
It pretty much works the same way as a crossbow trigger, except that a crossbow would rely on the tension of the string to set it spinning and doesn't need any springs.
I have a particular one in mind with a very similar looking lock, and a sort of latchet system, with a delecate thumb trigger. It's from the late late 14th century I believe. That awkward time where early handgonne's were starting to compete with light crossbows.
It's been a while since I've looked much at crossbows. I'm probably mistaking a gear or pully type system for a lock.
I think we need a seriese on forgotten crossbows to shore things up.
"designed to be easy to produce in times of war."
Ve need more weapons for ze Volkstuurm.
No problem, we captured a certain design in a French arsenal.
Props to ya Jonathan for rocking that calculator watch. I haven't seen one of them in years.
Came here to comment on this...
The ease of making this thing is entirely outweighed by the difficulty involved in growing the extra hand needed to actually operate it. 😁
I would wager these were allocated to non-front line forces for the most part. Garrisons, rear area people, training, and militias that might be called up in an emergency, front line troops get the good muskets.
And, in the end, as awkward as this is, if you just get one round off in the battle, that is still likely better than no gun.
I'm always taken aback by how much variation there are in examples that I would've thought to have been relatively standardised.
Don't think you can really have "standards" if things are still made by hand (with the help of machines).
@@aborted4196 That's true for the time period, but that time period was relatively short. Interchangeable parts and industrial machining were on the way in during the 19th century.
@@ericsmith5919 Interchangeable parts started with the American versions of the French Charleville pistols in the late 1790’s.
@@allangibson2408 Yes, but the concept wasn't perfected or universally adopted at the time.
What strikes me about this design is that the hammer and the frizzen are both 'floating' on their clock springs, which would make me concerned for the consistency of their striking geometry.
So a whitesmith was like a machinist, before the machines?
there were absolutely metal shaping machines in that time (see the "machine thinking" channel here on yt) but yeah, they were metalworkers that had a hand in making components that didn't exactly require fire to make
Boing-fizzle-BANG! . . . #"It's springtime, for muskets, & Zebedee."# (So sorry; it's my age : )
First proper description of "whitesmith" that I have heard.
and, to complete the list: a redsmith works in copper and copper alloys, and goldsmith and siversmith are obvious. Note on V-springs: harder to make well, but much lighter and safer.
I can see no benefit to constructing that mechanism, rather than the conventional lock. The maker still has to create a spring ... coiled, rather than 'V-shaped'. I would not have thought that would be any easier to manufacture. Perhaps the idea was to pinch the springs from the clock mechanisms of the bourgeoisie, after having first sent the owners to the Guillotine.
The weird thing is that this is several years before the part of the revolution where a lot of the choices would make sense. In 1790, there’s still a king, now with limited power; there’s rising tensions in Europe, but war doesn’t break out until 1792; and the Terror and the mass mobilisation is 1793-1794.
So this was not a last ditch weapon, but it was made at a time where war looked quite likely. It might have been intended for the National Guard, which as a (initially) local/regionally based citizen militia would require a lot of cheap guns, especially given that they paid for their own gear.
@@johanmilde You're quite right, and the timings throw doubt onto the 'last-ditch' hypothesis.
I'm gonna take a wild guess that breakages of conventional main-springs were very common ... and someone figured that a coil-spring would be a much more reliable and durable alternative.
I suspect that this is a proof of concept rather than a ready for use musket. Thank you for showing us this and the oak stock with little apparent (?) chemical reaction between the oak tannin and iron parts.
Lol 'colonies' ha ha. Great video Jonathan, as ever!
“To start off, its French”
*Ian has entered the Chat
That was a little hard for me to watch - the camera was fighting something, I suspect the lighting in that store. the subject matter so interesting that I kept with it.
back in day
Government notice
All clock springs must be given to the local officials for weapon production
A last-ditch weapon was probably intended to be used by a last-ditch trooper. They may not have intended for that weapon to be fired more than once. It could be loaded ahead of time, fired once during the battle, and then used as a pike with a bayonet.
I'm not sure I understand why a clock type spring was considered easier to make - the heat treating principles are the same as a conventional V-spring, and a V-spring is a simpler thing to forge, surely?
I've done a tiny bit of forging and heat treating (making tools, chisels etc) and I'd be a lot more confident making a normal mainspring... what am I missing here? Is there a metallurgical reason why a long thin clock spring is easier to produce?
My surmise is a conventional lock spring needs to be closely fitted and tempered ~precisely for its size. An external spiral spring leaves a lot more room (in more than one sense) for variation.
I would very carefully hypothesise, that a large coil spring is under less tension and deformation, and more forgiving of heat treating errors, than a V spring. Every portion of the coil barely deforms. in a V spring, various areas are under very different amounts of tension and deformation
Make do with what you have, makes perfect sense in the context.
Someone had one of those 'I have an idea' moment, and actually went through with it. Then someone else, somehow, find enough value in it to preserve it in a museum? What a weird, useless, unusable contraption.
It is hard to imagine those elaborate coil springs being cheaper than the V springs in a normal flintlock. Just train your clock smiths and white smiths to make an ordinary flintlock I am sure it would not take too long most of their skills would be transferable.
Are you sure it wasn’t designed by an Irish POW in France? 🤣
Probably an attempt at a low maintenance lock mechanism. Nothing to take apart to clean .. the floating hammer might have been thought to increase the amount of spark by allowing it to strike more like a fire starting flint and Steel giving it bounce instead of just breaking the flint quickly like a typical flintlock
him: why does it have this?
me: i dint even know something like that existed
It is interesting to see why some of the smart inventions did not work out. It is also illustrative of the disappearance of occupations with industrialisation and mass production - simply the amount of hand fitting required to make this thing work - occationally.
You see something like that with Adolph Furrer, where gunsmithing got locked into the blind alley of the toggle lock. The Luger is a good example. Excellent pistol - only thing wrong with it is the degree of maintainance and the number of man-hours.
If you consider the modern day pistols with tilting barrels - well it is the solution, which means you get what economists call a natural monopoly.
Was the designer of this thing the ancestor of French automobile systems designers? I'm thinking of things like the Renault R5's gear shift, and almost any Citroen suspension.
Clockwork Rifle ?
Why wouldn't the maker fabricate a spring for the trigger? Certainly it couldn't of been too hard to add one on somewhere?
france would just like to distance ourselves from this early attempt at steampunk design..
The thing that always strikes me about muskets is how you've got this combination of precisely man made tool, with a rock clamped in to make it work, lol.
@4:45 maybe this is a British misunderstanding of America but here a blacksmith deals with iron and a whitesmith deals with tin or precious metals like silver.
Great channel and if you want this stuff to be less scary understand it is the way because WE ALL KNOW you fear what you don't understand more then not.
Ye olde last ditch weapon. Like the original Volksturmgewehr
hi !!!
how complicate the simple thing ...!!! 😉
i think how it is easy to reloading and firing it under a stress situation like in middle battle ... ?!? 😁
The French have always carried on with an idea, even after they realised it was ridiculous, but would they admit it, not likely !
Interesting, I had always heard that a whitesmith was a tinsmith but made that is an American thing. I really want to doubt the story I’d rather just make a v spring, it would use less metal and be simpler to make.
if you have one could you do a video on the TP-82 Cosmonaut survival pistol? most fascinating gun ive ever heard of
One hope that this did not go into serial production. Too much effort to make a gun that is janky to operate.
It is missing a trigger spring.
These need music. Like jazz or lo fi or something. Love the vids as always 🙌
They could have used flat springs just cut from spring steel strip, even simpler.
How to make a flintlock without top quality springs.
"To start off this is French..."
*GunJesus1 has entered the chat.
“..in America, the colonies…”
(Yankee Doodle intensifies)
The stock has wood worm. It needs looked at. It may have infected other weapons
so essentially a whitesmith is more what we'd know today as a machinist?
Makes me wonder if the trigger spring is installed wrong.
i was under the impression that a whitesmith worked with tin and pewter
I feel like these videos deserve a much better camera/mic setup
this is a work around for a V spring? seriously bad
Its so weird that i built a rubber band gun supper similar to this
Casio Calculator watch. You rule Jonathan!
Much much worse audio quality today.
Lets put some respect on my mans Casio DBC32
"This is French ..."
Of course it is.
Is that like an old school firerate mod?
Wait this isn’t five nights at Freddy’s