Oh hey, Neato! I'm surprised no one sent me this yet. So yeah, I do tend to play weird, relying on varieties of debuffs to sort of disable and subdue over being traditionally efficient. Part of that is obsessing over Tactics Ogre for a few decades. Whether the buffs or debuffs stick or not, they still take an action off another guy. If you can distract and disrupt, you can move for free. That's how I see it, anyway. It may take more turns, but I love a good positioning play. It's been a few years, but the Gunner was valued for range, and trained as a Moogle Knight. Their skills are iffy, but cross map Ultima Blade out of a gun is hilarious to me. Speed be damned, that mess works from a mile away. I believe Flintlock was half mixup with the Gunner, and half this bizarrely tanky Moogle I ran for a while..I forget what I did with the guy, but stuff just bounced off the little guy. I'm going to have to boot up the save file again and remember what that was about. Hell, a lot of units probably went to higher tiers just because they were fun. The way I saw it is that the Illusionist isn't what makes the Seer abilities good. The Seer is the cheater, Illusionist on people is, by itself, weaker than the cool dog version. Fencer is in A Tier for debuffs, I like my debuffs, especially using their moves on any bow user. I'll have to finish this up tomorrow. Fun disagreement list, good stuff!
With regards to Bishop: - 12 and 14 MP costs are different, and they both can be cast more than every other turn. - With 14 MP Aeros, you skip turn 1 (0/14 MP spent), cast turn 2 (14/20), cast turn 3 (28/30), skip turn 4 (28/40), cast turn 5 (42/50), cast turn 6 (56/60), and then cast turn 7 (70/70) in a 7 turn loop. Skip, Cast, Cast, Skip, Cast, Cast, Cast; 5 casts every 7 turns. That's around 70% efficacy, which is more than the 50% you'd expect if you were simply "dividing by two" - For 12 MP spells, after skipping turn 1 you get 5 turns in a row of spells before running dry for an 83.333% uptime, assuming no MP damage or restoration. For Bishop itself this pattern can apply to Halve MP Break spam, whereas non-Bishops have things like Blue Mage Quake spam, Green Mage Sleep spam, or certain Geomancy use. And yes, while it is a niche thing to consider, but if you have a unit who is unable to do anything on the first turn because of range issues anyways (ie. even if you started with 999 MP you still wouldn't meaningfully be able to cast any damaging spell) you're giving up a turn you would be giving up regardless and then effectively be casting a 10-MP spell for the next 5 turns (or 5 of the next 6 turns for 14 MP spells). - Bishop has atrocious Speed and single digit MA growth. But you know what job Bangaa has with 88% Speed and 10 MA growth? A straight 99 Bishop will have around 10 less speed than a straight 99 Black Mage. A straight 99 Trickster will have around 48 more speed than a straight 99 Black Mage. Even at level 30, Tricksters have about 20 more speed than Black Mages with comparable MA. I wouldn't consider Bishop A tier, but I also think D is underselling it a just little. I see it sort of like Spellblade; it's a "backpack" skillset that you put as the secondary for your "chassis" primary job that has better stats. Aero for consistant Fira-tier damage, Cura for healing, Dispel and Break for utility, and maybe you'll have an opportunity to throw out a Holy. With Halve MP all of those other than Break and Holy can be cast every single turn which gives more versatility than just "Do I have enough MP for Ultima? Use Ultima". I'd give it a small bump up to C so it's not sitting there with Moogle!Black Mage, Animist, Beastmaster, Tinker.
Good analysis for why Cruza is underselling 12/14 mana skills and just incorrectly rounding them to "2 turns to cast", when in reality they are online for much more than that (and assuming T1 range issues prevent a cast, it can be near constant uptime). C tier for Bishop seems more accurate than either the D from Cruza or the A from Coffee.
Your analysis of the efficiency of bishop turns is true but when you consider that, especially late game, battles dont take longer than 6 turns at worst, the one extra turn of spells starts to seem like a nothing burger. That and halve mp As for the ultima argument, ultima is cast at weapon range. Meaning 1 tile range on bishop. So thats fun. Lastly, As for bishop being secondary for something else, all i have to say is: secondary to what? baanga are not a magic race. Bishop and gladiator are the only jobs with magic skills. All of this does not mean bishops are bad. Quite the contrary. They stand quite well on their own and if you are worried about speed, thats what trickster levels are for.
aww man!! I'm Just about to make my own FFTA2 tier list video!!! so now I have to check this out and sorta include it in my own. but now really, thankyou very much this is a Great game and a very interesting subject.
Your two videos on FFTA2 got me excited and thinking about the jobs too. Im happy that there are still some people who play and care about this game. You offer a lot of insight and make me think about certain jobs in a different way. I do have some things I agree and disagree with you on. So i have decided to make my own tier list video. Thank you for the inspiration!
I paused this video in the beginning and watched Coffee's video before proceeding. It was interesting to see how you two measure the value of certain classes differently. It made me consider what kinds of things are included in a tier list discussion, as Coffee included the presentation of class mechanics and ease of gear/skill progression as matters of key consideration. Honestly in some places they seemed to be just going off vibes, which I don't dislike, but such subjective metrics make their tier list more of a personal story of how they prefer to play. Their reasoning was a bit chaotic and unorganized lol, not a big knock but bore mention, I still enjoyed their takes. It is clear that your list is a power based tier list, and your preference for a given playthrough is only lightly informed by placement on your tier list. It is interesting to consider how different concepts of value interact with unit power in a game that is fairly easy to break wide open. When looking through the lens of enriched, moderately challenging gameplay, do cheesy tactics hold much value? Could be interesting to rank classes by contribution to player enjoyment, which in and of itself begins discussions of types of players, modes of play, and sources of enjoyment. I enjoyed these videos, and I'm grateful for your continued contemplations on FFTA2. I didn't expect this to make me feel so philosophical.
I never liked ranking based on enjoying or types of players. It sounds interesting but it never is, it becomes a very predictable style list. It becomes less about the game and more about the person which you're trying to interpret instead of just straight asking them. when it becomes too personal it stops being a tier list and just a chat, those are nice but how do you rank player enjoyment. Something like that becomes way too subjective, you're mainly there to just see how people played the game. which isn't rank territory. I much prefer a power tier list, Story mode tier list, speedrun tier list, and a mission tier list.
I've played a lot this game since i was 8 years old and when I thought i knew everything, everytime i watch a video i learn about even more broken combinations or classes that I thought were shit are actually really good for things that I didn't realize. I love this game and I really enjoyed this video, I am definetively watching more of your channel.
Glad you like it! I have a few thousand hours in and I just recently realized Sonic Boom does damage based on weapon element, so it can be geomancy boosted.
Have just finished an FFTA run, going to make an attempt at finishing this game, I’ve started it half a dozen times but always put it down mid game/ soon after the second continent. I would love to see a ‘team build guide’, I loosely know which races and classes I want, but not sure which combination I’ll go for, so that’d be helpful I think
I think tierlisting classes in FFT as a whole provides more questions than answers, since dual-classing is a core mechanic that's highly encouraged in this game. Many of the stuff I find confusing between you and Potato's logic can be solved if you plot the classes in a cartesian plane instead of this, with the y axis determining if a class is strong or weak, and the x class determining if a class is a main or a sub. A number of classes in this game are just designed primarily as a side class, having abilities that can complement a lot of other classes(e.g. Fighter, White Monk, White Mage, Seer), while some are bad as a side class because their abilities do not synergize with other classes' equipment or intended play style (e.g. Cannoneer have some excellent abilities that are completely useless if you use the class as a sub-class to any other class, since it's the only Bangaa class with cannons).
@CruzaComplex maybe you should do a class combo video. Actually, it probably would be better as a series... Like, "Soldier sub-Ability Tier list", then "Archer sub-Ability Tier list".
I would give Flintlock D-tier over Al-Cid. Sure, their main skills are bafflingly bad, but they at LEAST have Reaction and Passive Abilities to one-up Al-Cid on the action economy. Bishop is undervalued here. I think D is a little too low - it's nowhere near as bad as Beastmaster or Soldier, especially since Trickster exists to supplement Bishop's growth. What is Ranger without Mirror Items? Its the Seeq's only access to ranged attacks (besides Thunder spells), and Sten Needle is pretty potent early in a fight since it deals % damage iirc.
I want to add my 2 cents here. Since your tier list talks about jobs on their own. I gave mine about coffee potato too. S tier: - Ranger is good early but falls off hard later to other jobs. Also not as useful for bright tor. High A for me. Strong start meh finish. - juggler S? No smile toss + 74% speed is S. I don't tnink a job should be S on one ability, then flintlock and canoneer should be S cuz they enable map wide spam combos from seers pumpin them full of MP. Shoot time mage could be A or B doing the same thing but slower while providing more offense. A tier: mainly agree. Id move moogle time mage up here. They are gonna provide the same function as nu mou and if we take stat growths from other classes as a factor it will gain more speed from faster job classes making it more useful for utility. Everything else I agree. But I'd move ninja up maybe to A. Dual wield good speed Ninja tabi.. ya you're gonna cut down weakned units much faster than other classes even parivir. Also haste is much more valuable on a ninja. Sometimes id get 3 turns in a row. As opposed to other classes getting 1 then another maybe after another unit moved. I'd move assasin up to a for this reason. It's less setup and it can kill units fast befor even illusion shenaningans.
I just want to pick apart your comment. Respectfully, Ranger: For like 80% of the missions in the game, Ranger will be one shotting basically everything. Thats 240 battles where ranger is S tier. And that might even be low balling it. Even if it cant one shot, 400 damage is 400 damage. But x-potion aside, mirror phoenix down, one shots. Mirror cheat items. Even traps are not useless. Yes, other jobs catch up and overtake ranger EVENTUALLY but I think S tier is justified. Juggler: You say that smile and 74% speed growth is S. So then Juggler is S. Cannoneer should also be S because ether shell is amazing. Not exactly sure what you were getting at for the second half of this argument but Seer can't give mp to other units, only itself. Only Cannoneer, Flintlock and Bard can give mp to other units. Moogle TM: They do not provide the same function as Nu Mou time mage. They do not get turn 1 quicken, turn 1 hastega or turn 1 anything EXCEPT haste. That is a HUGE deal and it makes the power gap between Nu Mou TM and Moogle TM an absolute chasm. I dont think D tier is right but A is also not right. Ninja: Cruza said he would re-evaluate Ninja to be C or B. He also said that he doesnt consider Dual Wield when evaluating ninja in his original video. With that said, I would also place Ninja in A or even S because if we ARE considering Dual Wield, it is just such a game changer that it rockets Ninja to S imo.
But even his tier list leans towards not the jobs themselves being taken into account. Parivir is not S tier without geomency nor is seer. What makes them broken is the combos they can pull. Seer on its own is trash. It's just a glorified black/white mage. 1. Ranger deals good single target damage but this is still not as valuable than being able to map wipe with illusion especially with geomency. Dealing 2-400 damage to all targets is just more efficient than having to walk up to a target to deal 400 which no longer one shots around level 40-50. I'm not using ranger in most mid to late battles when I can outfit a seer with magick frenzy dual wield or geomency and one shot almost a whole squad. Also the same Can be done with illusionist just without frenzy. Geomency illusion does ridiculous damage. All you need is a MP bot like flintlock and juggler to quicken. Everyone down in 3 turns. I tested it with black magic and it's faster than one ranger cuz I can group wipe with geo spells and quicken. Why hit 1 target when I can blast 3 and deal comparable damage. 2. Time mages are pretty useless in the face of jugglers. Most broken setups only need quicken to be used on desires targets. 2 jugglers are enough to quicken the right units to team wipe or nearly get there which then ninja or assasin Can pick off stragglers more effectively or soften them up before the team wipe. 3. Yes canoneers and flintlocks are just MP bots for team wipers. Since moogles have thief and bangaas have trickster they are bound to restore team wiper MP very fast due to speed growth after switching.This is also why I said moogle time Mage is arguably better. They will get a quicken off faster than any nu mou if you invest in some speed...which is all that's needed. TM are just quicken bots. They don't even haste. Edit: I see why you were confused I thought I mentioned mp channelling which lets moogle get turn 1 quicken my B. MP channelling is much more efficient than Halve MP for setup as you can afford other support abilities not that moogles needs it but it effectively can be a faster caster so my point still stands. Either way juggler invalidates them both. And before you bring up gear, you can get bloody fallen angel through wiping the auction board and you can win every auction without the token imperium. So getting late game Gear can happen as early are moorabella. Have fun having dual wield by like story mission 5 or 6. This game heavily favors map clearing moves and group moves. Single target attacks just become useles. I don't even use parivir cuz why kill one unit well when my mages can wipe all units well even with halve MP I can still blast half them and assassins can pick ppl off. I have no damage missions frequently even before unlocking parivir or seer.
Small wall of text :) - Assassin: the debuffs are some of the most directly brutal in the game, Stone is an instant KO, Last Breath is a PERMANENT KO on enemies. And the effects cannot be prevented outside of debuff immunity. So no stats or critical: haste is going to salvage it. There's few jobs that can instakill ignoring all armor, defenses, etc AND have such good stats to boot (which include good speed). The fact that they just need an extra turn from an ally to get the guaranteed effect but don't even need that boost is really strong. (Yes, it is not guaranteed, but few things in this game are, you're always in the context of chances) - Flinlock: i think they where joking with that one tbh. EVEN without the need for priming they are still just decent. - Gria overall: All their jobs have bad stats in general, the abilities are better over other race's jobs to compensate, but their real strength is the flight. That flight generally puts Gria's, regardless of job, above other jobs. Not S worth. But good. With that said, i think he swapped Ravager and Raptor by mistake. - Moogle Knight: I think that the whole reason for that job to exist is to grant access to heavy equipment. S just because of what it offers to the whole race i guess. - Illusionist: Magick Frenzy is not that amazing unless you do some excellent stat growth to also raise physical damage (and idk what options give good physical and magic damage). Maybe i am missing some specialy synergy with physical attacks? But Nu Mou's better sources of magic growth just make the stronger casts better. - Gladiator: Beat down takes little to guarantee and can deal some of the highest physical damage. Paired with their excelletn Atk growth it just makes them an easy late-game damage dealer. I'd say it AT LEAST deserves a B, if not an A. - Ranger: the inverted items can literally instakill enemies every single turn. That is their only real use, but it is incredibly strong if you can afford the gold cost. Traps literally cancel enemy turns, if you know enemy AI, you have heavy, guaranteed effects + action economy. Even if you aren't willing to spend that amount of gold on X potions and phoenix downs, you still have a great variety of skills by inverting a chosen item for a guaranteed effect. - Beastmaster: It is a good stat grower. Excellent HP and highest speed for Nu Mous. But yeah, doo doo otherwise. - Animist: It is actually a great debuffer. Charm is great, area Sleep is amazing since it eats turns AND drops evasion. Green mage may be better. But green mage is absolutely overtuned, so i don't feel like that invalidates animist's abilities. By that logic then all other physical jobs that aren't Parivir would also drop to D. - Ninja: Speed may be high, but they have nothing to do with it, i am with you on them not belonging in A. You only ever take it to transfer dual wield or some very specific setup. Skills have mediocre damage and terrible debuff chances. The physical damage is def. not high enough to warrant their low survivability. - Master monk/White monk: White monk has more utility than master monk, and master monk doesn't do that well at its designated job. It deals decent damage if ADJACENT, but that's it. If anything, i feel white monk should be higher than master monk. Free revives, free purges and free versatile damage make for a nice generalist. Altho you probably want those in a Defender if anything.
Blue Mage and Seer are the hybrid options. To be fair though with Magick Frenzy, you do not need to have both stats be amazing. Just the fact that you're smacking every enemy with a powerful spell AND 1-2 big stick(s) is enough value by itself.
@@hv433 idk if dual wield is a good trade for any of the other great support abilities. Specially not if you're going to wield a rod. And having 2 average stats is worse than having 1 good one. Defense applies both times, so a bigger attack gets trough more of it in one go. It looks good, but unless you have some cool bonus like elemental damage or maybe even a healing staff for a turbo healer, it doesn't do anything major.
@rompevuevitos222 for Dual Wield, that's fair - I wanted to mention it as an option and made it seem like the best option. The best options are Turbo MP and Geomancy. With the hybrid leveling, you don't have to have 100% of the levels in one class. Blue Mage has good growths in both, but you're also absolutely free to have a mix of levels in Parivir, Ninja, and/or Black Mage to get more in certain stats. You're also forgetting that the Fire/Lightning/Ice/Terre rods are elemental. So you CAN get a cool bonus of extra elemental damage.
Physical but are not subject to back/side modifiers from what I see so angle of attack doesn't matter. Even if....you wouldn't level her as magic class anyways. Heritor/ninja gives enough growth anyways for what she needs to do.
@@Thedarkniterises I actually leveled her as a blue mage a couple times, intending her as an all purpose mage. I had suspicions heritor was physical so I made her a parivir the other times. My usual job choices setup for unique humes in the party are like this (First is primary job, the other the secondary set of abilities): -Luso: Seer + blue mage -Adelle: Parivir + heritor -Frimelda: Fighter + paladin -Vaan: Ninja + sky pirate -Al Cid: Agent + items (No other choice, really)
@@user-unos111interestingly enough levelling her as blue mage gives her better growth than heritor albeit 12% speed difference which imo isnt huge especially if she gets some ninja levels in. Also her attacks while not strong are so debilitating I like your setups and tbh leveling as paladin or blue mage I find is the way to go for uniques. then switching to your setups are fine. Never thought to ninja vaan for speed tho! If you want or anyone wants I have a sick mod that rebalances things. I'd love people opinion on it.
@@Thedarkniterises The problem with ninja is that you have to advance a bit until you get enough thief abilities to unlock it. Regarding Vaan, I choose it mainly because the other jobs are usually given to other characters already. Plus, it fits given he is made to be a rogue like character, useful to get treasures above all else (Or so it was for me). Regarding Frimelda, is complicated to build her into something that isn't "strong & though physical attacker to send to the frontlines". The mod you are talking about is one where phoenix downs give regeneration instead of resurrection, by any chance? P.D.: If you are curious, my usual class choices for the other uniques are: -Cid: Dragoon (Main) + high monk (Previously, white monk); he is the one who tends to vary the most, but he is always a mainline fighter. High monk (Main) + white monk is a good one, too. -Hurdy: Flintlock (Main) + bard. Bard abilities are more than enough, so I usually give him flintlock only so he can attack from far away -Penelo: Assasin (Main) + dancer. Dance blade is too good. Either that or some status focused job as the main. Nothing too special. -Montblanc: Black mage (Main) + animist/time mage. Usually I have a generic to hold his place. By the way, animist use magic for his abilities, right?
Coffee Potato has replied to me and it seems that they thought that some of Flintlock's abilities worked without Prime, mainly Ether Cannon. That's why it was in S-tier.
Oh, heck. If I knew what their skills were I might think they'd be worth it without prime too. He seemed like it was his favorite class so I thought he must've known what he was talking about
@CruzaComplex their best move is Ether Cannon, which is like the Cannoneer's Ether Shell, but restores 40 MP and requires Prime. Which is odd considering Ether Shell restores 60. :/ They mainly support with Protect+Regen or Shell+Regen, cure debuffs and HP at the same time, teleport, and they have an increased damage move from Prime and a self-inflicted damage move that idk if it needs Prime. In fights without Roar, it could be okay considering you can use Ether Cannon early in a match and then use Stopshot, but if Roar is on the field, they're useless.
@@hv433 Yeh the disconnect is that the S rating of Flintlock (He had it at A initially before he moved it up) is based on an imaginary world where Prime requirement doesn't exist (which more than halves the unit efficacy, in this case into Unplayability). No doubt it would be drastically stronger if it didn't need to waste a turn with Prime, maybe it would be deserving of even an S rating (Ether Cannon alone would w/o Prime restriction could earn it an A), but since that isn't reality, it being closer to F rating like the one that Cruza advocates for, is likely much closer to the objective truth. It has 3/3 move/jump (not the 3/2 mentioned @10:05 mark) and unimpressive stat growths and everything else, so even w/o the crippling Prime restriction its not impressive in any other way. Besides the major whiff on Flintlock, most of the other disparities in ratings can be explained or debated, with often times a middle ground of both ratings being probably closer to the most accurate (i.e starting with the first difference of Assassin, with Coffee at S and Cruza at B, it being on average something like an A rating is most likely accurate).
@@slickrounder6045 A-tier Prime-less Flintlock I could see, but I don't think its S-tier if Cannoneer is A-tier. Cannoneer has Ether Cannon but better in Ether Shell (60 MP vs 40 MP). You can fire off two Ultimas, two Illusions, etc. with a single Ether Shell vs the single one you get from Ether Cannon. This means a Cannoneer can manage two mage units rather than the Flintlock's one.
@@hv433 Yeh i realize that Ether Cannon is only 40mp restoration relative to 60 from Ether Shell. Hence I said that just by dint of Ether Cannon alone I could see Flintlock being an A tier (but not S tier just from that). Perhaps all the rest of its skills if they didn't require Prime to be used in the first place would maybe justify an S rating overall for Flintlock, but one would still have to overcome its poor stat growths and the like. So even then it would be a discussion of whether it would be an A or an S class unit (i'm not decided). Regardless its all completely Moot since it does have the devastating Prime restriction which completely blows up Coffee's rating of it and makes it unplayable.
Oh hey, Neato! I'm surprised no one sent me this yet.
So yeah, I do tend to play weird, relying on varieties of debuffs to sort of disable and subdue over being traditionally efficient.
Part of that is obsessing over Tactics Ogre for a few decades. Whether the buffs or debuffs stick or not, they still take an action off another guy. If you can distract and disrupt, you can move for free.
That's how I see it, anyway. It may take more turns, but I love a good positioning play.
It's been a few years, but the Gunner was valued for range, and trained as a Moogle Knight. Their skills are iffy, but cross map Ultima Blade out of a gun is hilarious to me. Speed be damned, that mess works from a mile away.
I believe Flintlock was half mixup with the Gunner, and half this bizarrely tanky Moogle I ran for a while..I forget what I did with the guy, but stuff just bounced off the little guy.
I'm going to have to boot up the save file again and remember what that was about.
Hell, a lot of units probably went to higher tiers just because they were fun.
The way I saw it is that the Illusionist isn't what makes the Seer abilities good. The Seer is the cheater, Illusionist on people is, by itself, weaker than the cool dog version.
Fencer is in A Tier for debuffs, I like my debuffs, especially using their moves on any bow user.
I'll have to finish this up tomorrow. Fun disagreement list, good stuff!
With regards to Bishop:
- 12 and 14 MP costs are different, and they both can be cast more than every other turn.
- With 14 MP Aeros, you skip turn 1 (0/14 MP spent), cast turn 2 (14/20), cast turn 3 (28/30), skip turn 4 (28/40), cast turn 5 (42/50), cast turn 6 (56/60), and then cast turn 7 (70/70) in a 7 turn loop. Skip, Cast, Cast, Skip, Cast, Cast, Cast; 5 casts every 7 turns.
That's around 70% efficacy, which is more than the 50% you'd expect if you were simply "dividing by two"
- For 12 MP spells, after skipping turn 1 you get 5 turns in a row of spells before running dry for an 83.333% uptime, assuming no MP damage or restoration. For Bishop itself this pattern can apply to Halve MP Break spam, whereas non-Bishops have things like Blue Mage Quake spam, Green Mage Sleep spam, or certain Geomancy use.
And yes, while it is a niche thing to consider, but if you have a unit who is unable to do anything on the first turn because of range issues anyways (ie. even if you started with 999 MP you still wouldn't meaningfully be able to cast any damaging spell) you're giving up a turn you would be giving up regardless and then effectively be casting a 10-MP spell for the next 5 turns (or 5 of the next 6 turns for 14 MP spells).
- Bishop has atrocious Speed and single digit MA growth. But you know what job Bangaa has with 88% Speed and 10 MA growth?
A straight 99 Bishop will have around 10 less speed than a straight 99 Black Mage.
A straight 99 Trickster will have around 48 more speed than a straight 99 Black Mage.
Even at level 30, Tricksters have about 20 more speed than Black Mages with comparable MA.
I wouldn't consider Bishop A tier, but I also think D is underselling it a just little.
I see it sort of like Spellblade; it's a "backpack" skillset that you put as the secondary for your "chassis" primary job that has better stats. Aero for consistant Fira-tier damage, Cura for healing, Dispel and Break for utility, and maybe you'll have an opportunity to throw out a Holy.
With Halve MP all of those other than Break and Holy can be cast every single turn which gives more versatility than just "Do I have enough MP for Ultima? Use Ultima".
I'd give it a small bump up to C so it's not sitting there with Moogle!Black Mage, Animist, Beastmaster, Tinker.
Good analysis for why Cruza is underselling 12/14 mana skills and just incorrectly rounding them to "2 turns to cast", when in reality they are online for much more than that (and assuming T1 range issues prevent a cast, it can be near constant uptime). C tier for Bishop seems more accurate than either the D from Cruza or the A from Coffee.
Your analysis of the efficiency of bishop turns is true but when you consider that, especially late game, battles dont take longer than 6 turns at worst, the one extra turn of spells starts to seem like a nothing burger. That and halve mp
As for the ultima argument, ultima is cast at weapon range. Meaning 1 tile range on bishop. So thats fun.
Lastly, As for bishop being secondary for something else, all i have to say is: secondary to what? baanga are not a magic race. Bishop and gladiator are the only jobs with magic skills.
All of this does not mean bishops are bad. Quite the contrary. They stand quite well on their own and if you are worried about speed, thats what trickster levels are for.
aww man!! I'm Just about to make my own FFTA2 tier list video!!! so now I have to check this out and sorta include it in my own. but now really, thankyou very much this is a Great game and a very interesting subject.
Your two videos on FFTA2 got me excited and thinking about the jobs too. Im happy that there are still some people who play and care about this game. You offer a lot of insight and make me think about certain jobs in a different way. I do have some things I agree and disagree with you on. So i have decided to make my own tier list video. Thank you for the inspiration!
Your original video was already one of my favorite videos about this game so I'm glad it got an unexpected follow-up!
I paused this video in the beginning and watched Coffee's video before proceeding.
It was interesting to see how you two measure the value of certain classes differently. It made me consider what kinds of things are included in a tier list discussion, as Coffee included the presentation of class mechanics and ease of gear/skill progression as matters of key consideration. Honestly in some places they seemed to be just going off vibes, which I don't dislike, but such subjective metrics make their tier list more of a personal story of how they prefer to play. Their reasoning was a bit chaotic and unorganized lol, not a big knock but bore mention, I still enjoyed their takes.
It is clear that your list is a power based tier list, and your preference for a given playthrough is only lightly informed by placement on your tier list.
It is interesting to consider how different concepts of value interact with unit power in a game that is fairly easy to break wide open. When looking through the lens of enriched, moderately challenging gameplay, do cheesy tactics hold much value? Could be interesting to rank classes by contribution to player enjoyment, which in and of itself begins discussions of types of players, modes of play, and sources of enjoyment.
I enjoyed these videos, and I'm grateful for your continued contemplations on FFTA2. I didn't expect this to make me feel so philosophical.
These are the comments I live for
I never liked ranking based on enjoying or types of players. It sounds interesting but it never is, it becomes a very predictable style list. It becomes less about the game and more about the person which you're trying to interpret instead of just straight asking them. when it becomes too personal it stops being a tier list and just a chat, those are nice but how do you rank player enjoyment. Something like that becomes way too subjective, you're mainly there to just see how people played the game. which isn't rank territory.
I much prefer a power tier list, Story mode tier list, speedrun tier list, and a mission tier list.
I feel like this video was made for me. I watched both of your videos while playing through ffta2 last month and was surprised at the differences.
I've played a lot this game since i was 8 years old and when I thought i knew everything, everytime i watch a video i learn about even more broken combinations or classes that I thought were shit are actually really good for things that I didn't realize. I love this game and I really enjoyed this video, I am definetively watching more of your channel.
Glad you like it! I have a few thousand hours in and I just recently realized Sonic Boom does damage based on weapon element, so it can be geomancy boosted.
Kizzy King dropped a tier list as well last month!
Have just finished an FFTA run, going to make an attempt at finishing this game, I’ve started it half a dozen times but always put it down mid game/ soon after the second continent.
I would love to see a ‘team build guide’, I loosely know which races and classes I want, but not sure which combination I’ll go for, so that’d be helpful I think
That could be something I throw together. Enjoy your run!
Errata: 8 MAG growth for Raptors is fine, it was incorrect to say it's a bad stat but I stand by Raptors being lackluster mage units.
Both of your ffta2 videos are incredible.
oooohhh neat, always love a video talking about my favorite video game!
I think tierlisting classes in FFT as a whole provides more questions than answers, since dual-classing is a core mechanic that's highly encouraged in this game. Many of the stuff I find confusing between you and Potato's logic can be solved if you plot the classes in a cartesian plane instead of this, with the y axis determining if a class is strong or weak, and the x class determining if a class is a main or a sub. A number of classes in this game are just designed primarily as a side class, having abilities that can complement a lot of other classes(e.g. Fighter, White Monk, White Mage, Seer), while some are bad as a side class because their abilities do not synergize with other classes' equipment or intended play style (e.g. Cannoneer have some excellent abilities that are completely useless if you use the class as a sub-class to any other class, since it's the only Bangaa class with cannons).
That is an interesting thought experiment
@CruzaComplex maybe you should do a class combo video. Actually, it probably would be better as a series... Like, "Soldier sub-Ability Tier list", then "Archer sub-Ability Tier list".
@@hv433 Hm....that's a thinker. I might be able to do something with that.
I have never seen anyone talk so much about action economy
I would give Flintlock D-tier over Al-Cid. Sure, their main skills are bafflingly bad, but they at LEAST have Reaction and Passive Abilities to one-up Al-Cid on the action economy.
Bishop is undervalued here. I think D is a little too low - it's nowhere near as bad as Beastmaster or Soldier, especially since Trickster exists to supplement Bishop's growth.
What is Ranger without Mirror Items? Its the Seeq's only access to ranged attacks (besides Thunder spells), and Sten Needle is pretty potent early in a fight since it deals % damage iirc.
I want to add my 2 cents here. Since your tier list talks about jobs on their own. I gave mine about coffee potato too.
S tier:
- Ranger is good early but falls off hard later to other jobs. Also not as useful for bright tor. High A for me. Strong start meh finish.
- juggler S? No smile toss + 74% speed is S. I don't tnink a job should be S on one ability, then flintlock and canoneer should be S cuz they enable map wide spam combos from seers pumpin them full of MP. Shoot time mage could be A or B doing the same thing but slower while providing more offense.
A tier: mainly agree. Id move moogle time mage up here. They are gonna provide the same function as nu mou and if we take stat growths from other classes as a factor it will gain more speed from faster job classes making it more useful for utility.
Everything else I agree. But I'd move ninja up maybe to A. Dual wield good speed Ninja tabi.. ya you're gonna cut down weakned units much faster than other classes even parivir. Also haste is much more valuable on a ninja. Sometimes id get 3 turns in a row. As opposed to other classes getting 1 then another maybe after another unit moved. I'd move assasin up to a for this reason. It's less setup and it can kill units fast befor even illusion shenaningans.
I just want to pick apart your comment. Respectfully,
Ranger: For like 80% of the missions in the game, Ranger will be one shotting basically everything. Thats 240 battles where ranger is S tier. And that might even be low balling it. Even if it cant one shot, 400 damage is 400 damage. But x-potion aside, mirror phoenix down, one shots. Mirror cheat items. Even traps are not useless. Yes, other jobs catch up and overtake ranger EVENTUALLY but I think S tier is justified.
Juggler: You say that smile and 74% speed growth is S. So then Juggler is S. Cannoneer should also be S because ether shell is amazing. Not exactly sure what you were getting at for the second half of this argument but Seer can't give mp to other units, only itself. Only Cannoneer, Flintlock and Bard can give mp to other units.
Moogle TM: They do not provide the same function as Nu Mou time mage. They do not get turn 1 quicken, turn 1 hastega or turn 1 anything EXCEPT haste. That is a HUGE deal and it makes the power gap between Nu Mou TM and Moogle TM an absolute chasm. I dont think D tier is right but A is also not right.
Ninja: Cruza said he would re-evaluate Ninja to be C or B. He also said that he doesnt consider Dual Wield when evaluating ninja in his original video. With that said, I would also place Ninja in A or even S because if we ARE considering Dual Wield, it is just such a game changer that it rockets Ninja to S imo.
But even his tier list leans towards not the jobs themselves being taken into account. Parivir is not S tier without geomency nor is seer. What makes them broken is the combos they can pull. Seer on its own is trash. It's just a glorified black/white mage.
1. Ranger deals good single target damage but this is still not as valuable than being able to map wipe with illusion especially with geomency. Dealing 2-400 damage to all targets is just more efficient than having to walk up to a target to deal 400 which no longer one shots around level 40-50. I'm not using ranger in most mid to late battles when I can outfit a seer with magick frenzy dual wield or geomency and one shot almost a whole squad. Also the same Can be done with illusionist just without frenzy. Geomency illusion does ridiculous damage. All you need is a MP bot like flintlock and juggler to quicken. Everyone down in 3 turns. I tested it with black magic and it's faster than one ranger cuz I can group wipe with geo spells and quicken. Why hit 1 target when I can blast 3 and deal comparable damage.
2. Time mages are pretty useless in the face of jugglers. Most broken setups only need quicken to be used on desires targets. 2 jugglers are enough to quicken the right units to team wipe or nearly get there which then ninja or assasin Can pick off stragglers more effectively or soften them up before the team wipe.
3. Yes canoneers and flintlocks are just MP bots for team wipers. Since moogles have thief and bangaas have trickster they are bound to restore team wiper MP very fast due to speed growth after switching.This is also why I said moogle time Mage is arguably better. They will get a quicken off faster than any nu mou if you invest in some speed...which is all that's needed. TM are just quicken bots. They don't even haste.
Edit: I see why you were confused I thought I mentioned mp channelling which lets moogle get turn 1 quicken my B. MP channelling is much more efficient than Halve MP for setup as you can afford other support abilities not that moogles needs it but it effectively can be a faster caster so my point still stands. Either way juggler invalidates them both.
And before you bring up gear, you can get bloody fallen angel through wiping the auction board and you can win every auction without the token imperium. So getting late game Gear can happen as early are moorabella. Have fun having dual wield by like story mission 5 or 6. This game heavily favors map clearing moves and group moves. Single target attacks just become useles. I don't even use parivir cuz why kill one unit well when my mages can wipe all units well even with halve MP I can still blast half them and assassins can pick ppl off. I have no damage missions frequently even before unlocking parivir or seer.
Small wall of text :)
- Assassin: the debuffs are some of the most directly brutal in the game, Stone is an instant KO, Last Breath is a PERMANENT KO on enemies. And the effects cannot be prevented outside of debuff immunity. So no stats or critical: haste is going to salvage it.
There's few jobs that can instakill ignoring all armor, defenses, etc AND have such good stats to boot (which include good speed).
The fact that they just need an extra turn from an ally to get the guaranteed effect but don't even need that boost is really strong.
(Yes, it is not guaranteed, but few things in this game are, you're always in the context of chances)
- Flinlock: i think they where joking with that one tbh. EVEN without the need for priming they are still just decent.
- Gria overall: All their jobs have bad stats in general, the abilities are better over other race's jobs to compensate, but their real strength is the flight.
That flight generally puts Gria's, regardless of job, above other jobs. Not S worth. But good.
With that said, i think he swapped Ravager and Raptor by mistake.
- Moogle Knight: I think that the whole reason for that job to exist is to grant access to heavy equipment. S just because of what it offers to the whole race i guess.
- Illusionist: Magick Frenzy is not that amazing unless you do some excellent stat growth to also raise physical damage (and idk what options give good physical and magic damage).
Maybe i am missing some specialy synergy with physical attacks? But Nu Mou's better sources of magic growth just make the stronger casts better.
- Gladiator: Beat down takes little to guarantee and can deal some of the highest physical damage. Paired with their excelletn Atk growth it just makes them an easy late-game damage dealer.
I'd say it AT LEAST deserves a B, if not an A.
- Ranger: the inverted items can literally instakill enemies every single turn. That is their only real use, but it is incredibly strong if you can afford the gold cost. Traps literally cancel enemy turns, if you know enemy AI, you have heavy, guaranteed effects + action economy.
Even if you aren't willing to spend that amount of gold on X potions and phoenix downs, you still have a great variety of skills by inverting a chosen item for a guaranteed effect.
- Beastmaster: It is a good stat grower. Excellent HP and highest speed for Nu Mous. But yeah, doo doo otherwise.
- Animist: It is actually a great debuffer. Charm is great, area Sleep is amazing since it eats turns AND drops evasion.
Green mage may be better. But green mage is absolutely overtuned, so i don't feel like that invalidates animist's abilities.
By that logic then all other physical jobs that aren't Parivir would also drop to D.
- Ninja: Speed may be high, but they have nothing to do with it, i am with you on them not belonging in A. You only ever take it to transfer dual wield or some very specific setup.
Skills have mediocre damage and terrible debuff chances. The physical damage is def. not high enough to warrant their low survivability.
- Master monk/White monk: White monk has more utility than master monk, and master monk doesn't do that well at its designated job. It deals decent damage if ADJACENT, but that's it.
If anything, i feel white monk should be higher than master monk. Free revives, free purges and free versatile damage make for a nice generalist. Altho you probably want those in a Defender if anything.
Blue Mage and Seer are the hybrid options.
To be fair though with Magick Frenzy, you do not need to have both stats be amazing. Just the fact that you're smacking every enemy with a powerful spell AND 1-2 big stick(s) is enough value by itself.
@@hv433 idk if dual wield is a good trade for any of the other great support abilities. Specially not if you're going to wield a rod.
And having 2 average stats is worse than having 1 good one. Defense applies both times, so a bigger attack gets trough more of it in one go.
It looks good, but unless you have some cool bonus like elemental damage or maybe even a healing staff for a turbo healer, it doesn't do anything major.
@rompevuevitos222 for Dual Wield, that's fair - I wanted to mention it as an option and made it seem like the best option. The best options are Turbo MP and Geomancy.
With the hybrid leveling, you don't have to have 100% of the levels in one class. Blue Mage has good growths in both, but you're also absolutely free to have a mix of levels in Parivir, Ninja, and/or Black Mage to get more in certain stats.
You're also forgetting that the Fire/Lightning/Ice/Terre rods are elemental. So you CAN get a cool bonus of extra elemental damage.
A thing I still don't understand. Which stat do heritor abilities use for damage? Physical or magic like ultima?
Who knows dude
Physical but are not subject to back/side modifiers from what I see so angle of attack doesn't matter. Even if....you wouldn't level her as magic class anyways. Heritor/ninja gives enough growth anyways for what she needs to do.
@@Thedarkniterises
I actually leveled her as a blue mage a couple times, intending her as an all purpose mage. I had suspicions heritor was physical so I made her a parivir the other times.
My usual job choices setup for unique humes in the party are like this (First is primary job, the other the secondary set of abilities):
-Luso: Seer + blue mage
-Adelle: Parivir + heritor
-Frimelda: Fighter + paladin
-Vaan: Ninja + sky pirate
-Al Cid: Agent + items (No other choice, really)
@@user-unos111interestingly enough levelling her as blue mage gives her better growth than heritor albeit 12% speed difference which imo isnt huge especially if she gets some ninja levels in. Also her attacks while not strong are so debilitating
I like your setups and tbh leveling as paladin or blue mage I find is the way to go for uniques. then switching to your setups are fine. Never thought to ninja vaan for speed tho!
If you want or anyone wants I have a sick mod that rebalances things. I'd love people opinion on it.
@@Thedarkniterises
The problem with ninja is that you have to advance a bit until you get enough thief abilities to unlock it. Regarding Vaan, I choose it mainly because the other jobs are usually given to other characters already. Plus, it fits given he is made to be a rogue like character, useful to get treasures above all else (Or so it was for me).
Regarding Frimelda, is complicated to build her into something that isn't "strong & though physical attacker to send to the frontlines".
The mod you are talking about is one where phoenix downs give regeneration instead of resurrection, by any chance?
P.D.: If you are curious, my usual class choices for the other uniques are:
-Cid: Dragoon (Main) + high monk (Previously, white monk); he is the one who tends to vary the most, but he is always a mainline fighter. High monk (Main) + white monk is a good one, too.
-Hurdy: Flintlock (Main) + bard. Bard abilities are more than enough, so I usually give him flintlock only so he can attack from far away
-Penelo: Assasin (Main) + dancer. Dance blade is too good. Either that or some status focused job as the main. Nothing too special.
-Montblanc: Black mage (Main) + animist/time mage. Usually I have a generic to hold his place. By the way, animist use magic for his abilities, right?
Hell to the yeah
Coffee Potato has replied to me and it seems that they thought that some of Flintlock's abilities worked without Prime, mainly Ether Cannon. That's why it was in S-tier.
Oh, heck. If I knew what their skills were I might think they'd be worth it without prime too. He seemed like it was his favorite class so I thought he must've known what he was talking about
@CruzaComplex their best move is Ether Cannon, which is like the Cannoneer's Ether Shell, but restores 40 MP and requires Prime. Which is odd considering Ether Shell restores 60. :/
They mainly support with Protect+Regen or Shell+Regen, cure debuffs and HP at the same time, teleport, and they have an increased damage move from Prime and a self-inflicted damage move that idk if it needs Prime.
In fights without Roar, it could be okay considering you can use Ether Cannon early in a match and then use Stopshot, but if Roar is on the field, they're useless.
@@hv433 Yeh the disconnect is that the S rating of Flintlock (He had it at A initially before he moved it up) is based on an imaginary world where Prime requirement doesn't exist (which more than halves the unit efficacy, in this case into Unplayability). No doubt it would be drastically stronger if it didn't need to waste a turn with Prime, maybe it would be deserving of even an S rating (Ether Cannon alone would w/o Prime restriction could earn it an A), but since that isn't reality, it being closer to F rating like the one that Cruza advocates for, is likely much closer to the objective truth. It has 3/3 move/jump (not the 3/2 mentioned @10:05 mark) and unimpressive stat growths and everything else, so even w/o the crippling Prime restriction its not impressive in any other way.
Besides the major whiff on Flintlock, most of the other disparities in ratings can be explained or debated, with often times a middle ground of both ratings being probably closer to the most accurate (i.e starting with the first difference of Assassin, with Coffee at S and Cruza at B, it being on average something like an A rating is most likely accurate).
@@slickrounder6045 A-tier Prime-less Flintlock I could see, but I don't think its S-tier if Cannoneer is A-tier.
Cannoneer has Ether Cannon but better in Ether Shell (60 MP vs 40 MP). You can fire off two Ultimas, two Illusions, etc. with a single Ether Shell vs the single one you get from Ether Cannon. This means a Cannoneer can manage two mage units rather than the Flintlock's one.
@@hv433 Yeh i realize that Ether Cannon is only 40mp restoration relative to 60 from Ether Shell. Hence I said that just by dint of Ether Cannon alone I could see Flintlock being an A tier (but not S tier just from that). Perhaps all the rest of its skills if they didn't require Prime to be used in the first place would maybe justify an S rating overall for Flintlock, but one would still have to overcome its poor stat growths and the like. So even then it would be a discussion of whether it would be an A or an S class unit (i'm not decided). Regardless its all completely Moot since it does have the devastating Prime restriction which completely blows up Coffee's rating of it and makes it unplayable.