Why do we have Kingston class vessels deployed Baltic Sea and Pacific, as "minsweepers" with only two WW2 machine guns for defensive armaments? Exact same arsenal of defence as USS Peublo captured off NK coast, without firing a shot 1968. It's crew imprisoned and tortured.
Before the refit, it was believed the navy was going to replace them with the 25 mil Bushmaster. But alas, looks like the cheep navy beancounters got thier own way instead. Earmarked the 25s for the newer AOPs instead. Not a huge fan of that 25. But it's better than no deck gun at all. Twelve Kingston vessels & 25s. Thats minimum, but a quantity "thing" in poorly defended maple leaf shores. And the AOPs could have had better armament too. And you can guarantee the NATO ministers are even more steamed as well. Disappointing.
600 yes but would they want to serve our military does not get the respect they deserve for what they do and they make do always with outdated equipment but are still expected to match all other countries military. My respect to those who serve.
If you get 12 ... that's 6 on each coast ... with the usual rotation of 1 in refit, 1 in training workups and 1 ready for action, 12 will give us 2 on each coast ready for battle. 5 gives you 1 on each coast ready to go some of the time and it does not change the current situation.
Interesting to see them kicking the tires on something Korean. However, I think they should take a look at the German-designed type 212/214 subs (German and Italian navy), powered by hydrogen fuel cells. Some upgraded & Canadianized version of it (216 or something?) , with more range capabilities might be an excellent choice. Reputation is, they are absurdly quiet and can do certain things the others can't. Just make sure to convince us the top of the line ones, not something less which they dumb-down for export. As for subs generally, the Canadian Navy may be looking at asking for 12, but it is a hard enough sell convincing the public (and therefore politicians) we need subs at all. So the RCN will ask for 12, and if they are really on the ball they might get 8, and then have to fight hard to not see it knocked down to 6 or less. Subs do not have that "soft power" function that surface ships do, showing the flag, doing search and rescue or disaster relief, making navy stuff look relevant to everyday life. They are just there to kill other ships and stay mostly unseen; maybe they get to spy or insert special forces somewhere. If you never need to do that, great, but if you need that and don't have that, you are fucked. So 8 is a decent number, being 2 active subs per ocean (arctic, yeah) and assuming 2 more are in the shop. 12? Okay, but then how many AOPS are going to be getting retired early or never built? Anyways, I wonder if those are considered the lifetime costs or cost as built ? As for the training, how many people are even qualified to do any job at sea? BC Ferries can't even find people, and they are civilian, so convincing people to join the Navy and become lifers would be even tougher. Whatever designs they choose, more automation and less crew will probably be considered desirable. (Hello, sea drones.)
We announced these ships in 2015-ish timeframe??/ I guess by now we have 3 on the water as we wanted to save money and build in Canada !! :):) If we had been serious about this, we would have purchased off the shelf, saved BILLIONS and gave the ship yard workers a small package from the savings and gave the rest to Stevie and Justin to pay for their pictures and jet setting AND the ships would be around now during this crisis. Instead Justin is talking about all the money we WILL spend in the future.. I bet the Russians and Chinese are worried about that.
Wrong if we are serious were will be building our own capaicity. Note also the costs while higher are not comparable since Canada cost ships over the life time of the unit and the proposed alternatives do not include all the weapon and sensor systems required. In addition we will have to have the repair capability in house. If war were to occur we would not be able to send ships off to a foreign country for maintenance. We found that out in the recent pandemic when our normal supplier of something comparatively simple as vaccines from the US, they looked after themselves and we had to go around the world begging and bribing. Buting submarines on the other hand makes sense because it is essentially a completely new technology for Canada, but ultimately repairs will be in the same yards as the Type 26s and in fact anyone tracking this would know it is already in the works. Cost 160 billion and you can through in a few extrra few billion for the Vigelence class not discussed in a 2 trillion economy spread over about 20 years. quite doable. Recruitment is a problem but put this in perspective, our current military is about 68,000 and each year 66,000 apply as stated in a recent interview by a Lieutenant-General. As the current Vice Admiral the percetage of theose applicants for the navy has been increasing. The point is we should be able to do this over the next 20 years. I'm glad to see the government addressing the military after 20 years of neglect even while at war in Afganistan. With global warming and newly aggressive states the future is going to be come much more dangerous. They will have to do more.
@@jonmce1 disagrees with you. If Canada was a waring nation, sure build it here. Let's face it, if it were up to our gov, we would have no military at all until the US got tired of supporting us, then whichever government was in power, would blame the previous one for no military might. We can't build here, it's 10 years and we have sent sailors to the US to help with a mock up. Our county is a joke on the global stage and Justin is making it worse.
Yeah, likely just getting hopes up! If they do follow through, I’d be shocked! Trudope lies through his teeth daily! Having said that, he did go out and purchase 8 or 9 Airbus A330s to replace our 5 A310s. Where are all the aircrew going to come from? As a former member of 437 Sqn I can tell you we were short staffed allot when I was on Sqn. Let alone to find the crews for double the aircraft and larger crew compliment! DND is desperate for members, they’re so low on staff that people are getting promoted well before they’re ready! Shit my son has a promotion PER with 6 years in. The only reason he’s not promoted to MCpl is he’s not even 5s Qualified yet! Mark my words, we’re going to lose some of our members because of the complete lack of readiness and ability to function at ranks!
1991 navy leadership: 4 commited navy vessels to the Gulf receive extensive refit for a hostile locality. Athabasca, Terra Nova, Protectuer and later the Huron. 2024, admirals send 4 minesweepers to 2 potential hot spots. With only WW2 machine guns, thier heaviest armaments. WTF
Anyone see the ARTIC partrol ship in Cuba assisting the US Navy with the Russian visitors?? The new CSC's were busy somewhere else, so we sent ARTIC ships to Cuba I wonder??? What a joke.
If you want to know the answer to all these questions you pose here you have to ask the Laurentian Elite (you know all those who pull the strings of power while sitting on boards and institutes while milking the government by way of fat salaries) You know who you are while you look at each other and say “He can’t be talking about me, so he must be talking about you).
This one of the dumbist claims sometimes repeated inn the news about manpower shortages for the new frigates. Has anyone with the math ability of a 5 year old really looked at this. When are the ships to be available right in about 8 years, that gives lots of time to recruit and train manpower. It is good to criticize failures in the military but to makes claims for 8 years from now when 1 new ship will be available is simply stupid. do a little more competent work.
I first met Scott Taylor, when you/he went to Cambodia. 🇨🇦 Veteran
RCN needs to seriously consider an AIP configuration.
Whats to figure out here? Big new shiny things attract all sorts of types. Sea foam painted rust doesn't. The end.
Why do we have Kingston class vessels deployed Baltic Sea and Pacific, as "minsweepers" with only two WW2 machine guns for defensive armaments?
Exact same arsenal of defence as USS Peublo captured off NK coast, without firing a shot 1968. It's crew imprisoned and tortured.
They removed those 40mm Bofors a while ago. Nice museum pieces, those old fashioned over-the--barrel aimed WWii guns.
Before the refit, it was believed the navy was going to replace them with the 25 mil Bushmaster. But alas, looks like the cheep navy beancounters got thier own way instead. Earmarked the 25s for the newer AOPs instead. Not a huge fan of that 25. But it's better than no deck gun at all. Twelve Kingston vessels & 25s. Thats minimum, but a quantity "thing" in poorly defended maple leaf shores. And the AOPs could have had better armament too. And you can guarantee the NATO ministers are even more steamed as well. Disappointing.
The Victoria class subs are NOT in service. Three out of the four have zero hours at sea and the fourth is NOT combat ready in any way shape or form.
600 yes but would they want to serve our military does not get the respect they deserve for what they do and they make do always with outdated equipment but are still expected to match all other countries military. My respect to those who serve.
If they could get 4 that would be a reasonable number. But 5 would be perfect 1 for training in our coastal water's.....
If you get 12 ... that's 6 on each coast ... with the usual rotation of 1 in refit, 1 in training workups and 1 ready for action, 12 will give us 2 on each coast ready for battle. 5 gives you 1 on each coast ready to go some of the time and it does not change the current situation.
They’re going to need more than 5, as now the Navy has to patrol Arctic waters also.
Interesting to see them kicking the tires on something Korean.
However, I think they should take a look at the German-designed type 212/214 subs (German and Italian navy), powered by hydrogen fuel cells. Some upgraded & Canadianized version of it (216 or something?) , with more range capabilities might be an excellent choice. Reputation is, they are absurdly quiet and can do certain things the others can't. Just make sure to convince us the top of the line ones, not something less which they dumb-down for export.
As for subs generally, the Canadian Navy may be looking at asking for 12, but it is a hard enough sell convincing the public (and therefore politicians) we need subs at all. So the RCN will ask for 12, and if they are really on the ball they might get 8, and then have to fight hard to not see it knocked down to 6 or less. Subs do not have that "soft power" function that surface ships do, showing the flag, doing search and rescue or disaster relief, making navy stuff look relevant to everyday life. They are just there to kill other ships and stay mostly unseen; maybe they get to spy or insert special forces somewhere. If you never need to do that, great, but if you need that and don't have that, you are fucked. So 8 is a decent number, being 2 active subs per ocean (arctic, yeah) and assuming 2 more are in the shop. 12? Okay, but then how many AOPS are going to be getting retired early or never built?
Anyways, I wonder if those are considered the lifetime costs or cost as built ? As for the training, how many people are even qualified to do any job at sea? BC Ferries can't even find people, and they are civilian, so convincing people to join the Navy and become lifers would be even tougher. Whatever designs they choose, more automation and less crew will probably be considered desirable. (Hello, sea drones.)
Hopefully getting some new equipment and getting rid of some of the old shit will also attract
We announced these ships in 2015-ish timeframe??/ I guess by now we have 3 on the water as we wanted to save money and build in Canada !! :):) If we had been serious about this, we would have purchased off the shelf, saved BILLIONS and gave the ship yard workers a small package from the savings and gave the rest to Stevie and Justin to pay for their pictures and jet setting AND the ships would be around now during this crisis. Instead Justin is talking about all the money we WILL spend in the future.. I bet the Russians and Chinese are worried about that.
Wrong if we are serious were will be building our own capaicity. Note also the costs while higher are not comparable since Canada cost ships over the life time of the unit and the proposed alternatives do not include all the weapon and sensor systems required. In addition we will have to have the repair capability in house. If war were to occur we would not be able to send ships off to a foreign country for maintenance. We found that out in the recent pandemic when our normal supplier of something comparatively simple as vaccines from the US, they looked after themselves and we had to go around the world begging and bribing. Buting submarines on the other hand makes sense because it is essentially a completely new technology for Canada, but ultimately repairs will be in the same yards as the Type 26s and in fact anyone tracking this would know it is already in the works.
Cost 160 billion and you can through in a few extrra few billion for the Vigelence class not discussed in a 2 trillion economy spread over about 20 years. quite doable. Recruitment is a problem but put this in perspective, our current military is about 68,000 and each year 66,000 apply as stated in a recent interview by a Lieutenant-General. As the current Vice Admiral the percetage of theose applicants for the navy has been increasing.
The point is we should be able to do this over the next 20 years.
I'm glad to see the government addressing the military after 20 years of neglect even while at war in Afganistan. With global warming and newly aggressive states the future is going to be come much more dangerous. They will have to do more.
@@jonmce1 disagrees with you. If Canada was a waring nation, sure build it here. Let's face it, if it were up to our gov, we would have no military at all until the US got tired of supporting us, then whichever government was in power, would blame the previous one for no military might. We can't build here, it's 10 years and we have sent sailors to the US to help with a mock up. Our county is a joke on the global stage and Justin is making it worse.
Yeah, likely just getting hopes up! If they do follow through, I’d be shocked! Trudope lies through his teeth daily! Having said that, he did go out and purchase 8 or 9 Airbus A330s to replace our 5 A310s. Where are all the aircrew going to come from? As a former member of 437 Sqn I can tell you we were short staffed allot when I was on Sqn. Let alone to find the crews for double the aircraft and larger crew compliment! DND is desperate for members, they’re so low on staff that people are getting promoted well before they’re ready! Shit my son has a promotion PER with 6 years in. The only reason he’s not promoted to MCpl is he’s not even 5s Qualified yet! Mark my words, we’re going to lose some of our members because of the complete lack of readiness and ability to function at ranks!
1991 navy leadership: 4 commited navy vessels to the Gulf receive extensive refit for a hostile locality.
Athabasca, Terra Nova, Protectuer and later the Huron.
2024, admirals send 4 minesweepers to 2 potential hot spots. With only WW2 machine guns, thier heaviest armaments. WTF
Try paying sailors more money. They can’t live on $43,000 a year. That may increase our NATO requirement to 2%
can we get an amphibious assault ship? but 12 submarines would be a credible and capable fleet
Anyone see the ARTIC partrol ship in Cuba assisting the US Navy with the Russian visitors?? The new CSC's were busy somewhere else, so we sent ARTIC ships to Cuba I wonder??? What a joke.
If you want to know the answer to all these questions you pose here you have to ask the Laurentian Elite (you know all those who pull the strings of power while sitting on boards and institutes while milking the government by way of fat salaries) You know who you are while you look at each other and say “He can’t be talking about me, so he must be talking about you).
The sad thing is you scoundrels can’t be voted out on election day.
Buy 8 subs save money.
Sure comrade.
This one of the dumbist claims sometimes repeated inn the news about manpower shortages for the new frigates. Has anyone with the math ability of a 5 year old really looked at this. When are the ships to be available right in about 8 years, that gives lots of time to recruit and train manpower. It is good to criticize failures in the military but to makes claims for 8 years from now when 1 new ship will be available is simply stupid. do a little more competent work.