*UPDATE: sold the ACB, bought the Getzen!* A couple notes: I know this isn’t a total one-to-one because I have played the ACB for three years and the Getzen for all of a few days. Additionally, recording the tests first on the ACB made me more fatigued while recording on the Getzen. However, I hope these tests are good enough that you can tell some key differences between the horns and let me know!
(1) Yes, you are conditioned to be comfortable on the ACB, which skews your results. (2) The Getzen is heavier and harder in temper vs the softer annealed higher copper thinner ACB. Beyond tonal issues (next line), this makes the ACB respond a little easier. (3) The ACB, with higher copper in the bell, can soak up a bit more highs if you don't control your tonal inputs as well. On the other hand, the Getzen will project your tone far better without going harsh if you do the work to control tone to start with, basically, through the deadening effect of mass. (4) The Getzen has a 4th valve, but you are comfortable with the ACB trigger. That made intonation a wash in these samples, but in a longer playing setting, 4th will cover for when you tire better. (5) The Getzen maintains a consistent sound across dynamics, while the ACB fluctuates with dynamic. The Getzen overall tends toward a more professional consistency. (6) Ultimately, even after allowing for your familiarity, the ACB will give you the tone you want easier, though not at every dynamic, while the Getzen will reward you if you work harder with a more consistent and superior overall capability. So, are you looking for status quo with ease, or more in return for harder work?
In typical RB fashion, this is the most thorough analysis I’ve seen so far. For the most part it lines up pretty closely with my own analysis. I think the Getzen is harder work to play, full stop. It takes a lot of energy to excite the air molecules in such a heavyweight horn, from that big bell to the 4th valve and slide. That’s a turn-off to be certain, but I am starting to wonder if the intonation and sound benefits are worth that sacrifice. I am also of the belief that the 4th valve (once I am used to it) will be a better solution than a 3rd trigger. If the ACB had *both* a 1 and 3 trigger, that might be a different story, as most of its bad notes involve the 1st valve and a 1 trigger would be incredibly useful. However, as you mentioned, when my hands are tired I’d much rather pop a quick 2+4 for a low C# than 1+2+3 *and* springing out the trigger all the way to the end of its reach. So, if I am reading this correctly, you believe the Getzen has a more complex but more consistent tone? That has been my observation thus far. I also like the slightly better projection of the large bell and bore. I usually don’t trust .460” bores on flugelhorn, but that big conical bell diffuses the sound pleasantly. I think I can also get it to sound soft and fluffy enough for jazz ballads, especially if I use an extra-cavernous Flip Oakes X1.5 mouthpiece. And to think I believed the Wick 2FL was deep… Anyway, thanks for all your thoughts, Ron. I think the Getzen is showing promise but ultimately I won’t know my decision for certain until the price haggling happens.
Hi Samuel, Very nice demo playing comparison between the two flugelhorns. To my ears on a Samsung tablet with Bluetooth ear buds, The two horns sound virtually identical. Very hard to hear a difference. Maybe, just maybe the Getzen sounded a tiny bit crisper. But for my taste the Flugelhorn is well Suited for a ballad with its melancholy natural sound. Both horns sounded great on I Remember Clifford. Maybe I will listen again with eyes shut. But on first go, I can't tell them apart.
I am a flugelhorn player for the local Brass Band. I have several flugelhorns anywhere from the Adams F5 to the ACB doubler. My personal favorite is the Getzen 4-valve model. The sound of the Getzen 4-valve is more mellow and a full bodied sound. I did notice on your video that you did use the 4th valve on several notes. That in itself is a dead giveaway as to the intonation advantage towards the Getzen 4-valve. I have no idea of the deal you are going to get for the Getzen but take the deal. You will thank yourself in the end.
Thanks for your comment, Thomas. Good to have your insight. I guess I never updated the pinned comment on this video, but I did indeed end up going for the Getzen. My preference up to that point had been for a smoky and diffuse flugelhorn tone, but I, too, ended up developing a liking for the Getzen’s broader tone. Even outside of use of the fourth valve, the Getzen’s intonation was also quite a bit better. I ended up paying little more for it than I sold my Doubler for, so the choice was pretty obvious in the end. Very happy with the new horn. I filmed videos of me on a Christmas gig with most of the same tunes in 2022 and 2023 and I could tell I was working less hard and playing more in tune in the more recent one thanks to the Getzen.
Good video! As a listener I couldn't tell a noticeable difference between the two. I'd say in the polka the Getzen had a much brighter tone but it's difficult to say if that was more due to differences in position of your bell in relation to the mic. I'd say whichever one is more comfortable to play is probably a better option. Good luck!
Thanks Luke! I think you’re right in your observation about the Getzen-it seems less “locked in” to a particular tone quality than the Doubler, which can be a good or very bad thing depending on the instance! Ease of playing definitely turns out to be an important factor in the decision making process, as you said. FWIW, the Doubler is crazy easy to play! Might still be winning between these two.
You can definitely tell that the Getzen is a better horn the sound is more focused it has kind of a dark sound with a bright aura if you can figure out what I mean. The ACB sounds more spread out not as focused kind of puffy not in a good way. Maybe the monster Wick 2 mouthpiece is to much for that horn? I think which ever horn plays in tune easier is the one to keep. Back in the day we sold our Getzens and bought Yamahas. The Getzen 4 valve I played was like wrestling an alligator the intonation wasn’t the greatest and the .460 bore Flugelhorn drained you. Keep the ACB and get an old Yamaha if one comes up for a good price. Your playing is great and I love your videos!!!!
First off, you could make a garden hose sound good! .... The ACB Doubler is a nice horn but won't retain it's resale value like the Getzen. If the Getzen is a good deal, I would jump on it. I spent several years looking for a 4 valve flugel. They don't seem to come up as often. You can do anything that a 3 valve can do and more with the 4 valve. The four valve flugels are a different animal than the three valve. It's a slightly different "blow" with the added mass to the instrument and slightly larger bell. But what I have found is that it gives me more mouthpiece options and color of sound. And probably just me.... The four valve flugels are harder to make sound like a trumpet and keep their flugel characteristics through out the registers. Also seems to slot better. And you can't beat the extended low register. I have been able to double up the bass line in a few ensembles because of it. Just my two cents.
So good to hear from you TL! How are things? You mirror my thoughts thus far almost exactly. I’m really leaning towards the Getzen. I was suspicious of how it would play with an ML trumpet bore because I’ve been pretty loyal to the French .413” bore and I firmly believed that the small bore at the valves allowed for a more conical apparatus overall. However, given the larger bell, the Getzen is plenty conical, and the added mass definitely helps ensure the horn doesn’t cross into “bright” territory. I’m really hoping I can get a good deal on it as I’ve been giddy for a four-valve for years. I still think one day I’ll have to graduate to a Courtois like Sergei Nakariakov, but for now, assuming it won’t break my bank (fingers crossed…), the Getzen is a GREAT horn.
@@SamuelPlaysBrass Things are going well. Really happy to see your channel growing. Sounds like we are on the same wave length.... or just have similar experience.😄
When a player cannot afford FL Professional, they must go ACB Doubler. Austin Custom Brass Doubler is the only PRC flugelhorn import operating in America that could ever stand up on this video. They do much more cleaning and tweaking than drop shipment alone. You almost never see an ACB Doubler FL pre owned in the market. They are the new wave in brass: vetted and upgraded PRC batch importing.
I play the flugelhorn. The ACB has the classic dark, rich, smoky sound as it should have. The Getzen is much brighter and sweeter. Very easy choice for me as a listener - ACB all the way. But I imagine you are struggling to decide because the Getzen is easier to play as it’s a professional model. I feel your pain. If the Getzen was in clear laquer like the ACB it would be the Getzen that would win.
Thanks for your comment, Gwen. Interesting observations. Mine are the polar opposite. I find the Getzen to have a darker and huskier sound than the ACB but I also find it harder to play. I frankly don’t think the silver vs. lacquer makes very much of a difference. I do wish the Getzen had a copper-enhanced bell flare like the ACB does as I would probably like its tone even more in that case.
I reckon the Getzen with its wider bore and darker sound is a clear winner. It is by a country mile different from the sound of the trumpet and cornet and while you can brighten the tone if needed, it offers far more differentiation of timbre. Needless to say, the 4th valve is a bonus, giving an extra boost to the low range. If it were me, I don’t think I’d hesitate.
Thank you for your feedback, Edward! You see exactly what I see in the Getzen. I have mixed feelings about it, but it has a very wide tonal palate ranging from darker than the ACB on one extreme to almost a perfect German polka band flugelhorn on the other. This, of course, means I need to be more timbre-conscious on the Getzen than my ACB, but it may be a change worth making. And yes, that fourth valve increases the usable range from 2.5 octaves to about four.
Getzen Eterna sounds like it's a bit easier to play, ACB Doubler's is a bit more brassy with bite (but in a good way). Getzen Eterna playing jazz was sublime. What a wonderfully difficult choice! Whatever you pick, I'm sure you'll always have that remorse of 'what if...?' But I'm sure you'll choose wisely.
I owned a Getzen 4 valve flugelhorn for several years. I sold it to my church when I found an Olds L-12 that was lighter by far. As an older player I appreciated the lighter horn that was more agile in my hands. The Olds is a bit bigger that the traditional French bore of .410-ish but MUch smaller than the Getzen .460. It adds up over a 4 hour gig.
Thanks for your comment, Cindi. The weight of the Getzen is certainly a consideration, but in several months of owning it, I have yet to find it more tiring to play on a gig than a French bore. What I wish the Getzen did have is (a) better ergonomics and (b) a 1st-slide trigger, but unfortunately the 1st slide doesn’t have much pull room.
Funnily enough, I own both of these models myself, but I actually went in the other direction (owned the Eterna first and then bought the doubler's horn with the intent to sell the Eterna). This actually makes me think I need to record some things on both and listen to that. Behind the bell, I like my sound on the ACB more, but in your video I couldn't tell a large difference. I'd personally say it should come down to your experience playing each and if you like the utility of the 4th valve.
Let me know of your observations if you end up recording each! At first I had no doubts from behind the bell that I preferred the ACB, and I planned to just borrow the Eterna long enough to film a review. Now, however, I am on the fence, because I’m starting to like them almost equally from behind and the Eterna perhaps ever so slightly more from in front.
@directcurrent5751 something like that. Eternas seem to be around $2700 new. I'm realizing I never recorded anything, but I do still like the sound of the ACB more behind the bell. It's in the shop, but I actually did buy an alto flugelhorn in F recently, so now I really don't have a reason to have a 4 valve.
True, I am all for the Sergei Nakariakov setup, but if I end up selling the ACB I want to be 100% certain that I’m not making any sacrifices in tone quality or ease of playing just for the sake of a low register gimmick.
@@cool_nation No worries, I actually haven’t addressed that topic. Imagine a three-valve can go down to a low F#, right? Well, the fourth valve more or less fills in the notes between that and the “pedal” C (a note that sounds like a trombone). Then once you get to the pedal C on an open fingering, you do it all over again. Down to pedal F#, then engage the fourth valve and you can get to a pedal D or C# reasonably. In concert pitches, that’s the 2nd lowest C or B natural on the piano keyboard, well below the bass clef staff!
Hello Sam. In my opinion, it all depends on the tasks. Depends on the music you want to play. For example, for jazz and pop, I would choose ABS Dubler in tandem with Marcinkiewicz Bobby Shew. And for performing classics or playing in brass groups - of course Getzen in the company Denis Wick 3BFL/4BFL (why B, “bright”? - yes, it has a smaller cup, but due to this it is easier to control intonation). Something like that. success
Thank you for your feedback. My preference is still for the 2FL over any ‘BFL’ cup almost regardless of genre, but I understand that for many, the smaller cup helps with pitch control.
Its interesting that you're not overly swayed by the Eterna - they're not highly rated at all in brass band circles... I'm not hearing the kind of difference I'd want to spend money on - I'd put it aside for something else (a different flugel or otherwise). These Chinese flugels with QC done by the dealer are solid utilitarian horns - they're better than the price tag suggests.
To be frank you never truly will hear a difference that match's the gap in prices unless it's a brighter or darker in sound. The true difference between horn levels is how well they hold up between maintaince, how easy it is to blow air and play the upper register without the use of lead mouthpieces and heavy valve caps, etc, the clarity of the sound, projection, and lastly the tuning certain notes so you do not need to rely on alternate fingerings to be in tune or using your lips to get it in tune. Honestly for me, the important aspects of this would be free blowing, easy upper register, and projection more than anything else. Lee Morgan for example recorded Cornbread on an olds ambassador. Honestly the most important upgrade is the mouthpiece you use. I've tested a Yamaha xeno to compare to my olds ambassador and Honestly the xeno didn't sound any better just brighter with an easier upper register however I still hand the same range both and I do not want a brighter tone, I've spent 4 years developing a dark tone for my jazz lol. Correctly I have a besson Brevete flugelhorn and will add the doubler to my batch.
@@kamikazehound3243 I wasn't talking about tonal differences - or at least not directly... It's more a question of how much manipulation is required to get around the tuning of the two. Tone matters to a point, yes, but only when everything else is right - sounding a million bucks on some notes is useless if you have to lip others so much there's no overtones left. Intonation is THE most important thing - if it's not in tune with itself, move on (fast!)... It'll be harder work than it's worth to play, restrict what you can even do with it and make life a misery. This might be a slightly elitist perspective in terms of why it matters to me, but I think it holds pretty well - and if your own playing isn't in a position to assess a given horn, take someone with you who is!
@@EnglishTMTB IF the QC and tweaking are applied to every horn. In the USA, the company run by Austin Trent ACB, seems the most comprehensive treatment of brass imports from PRC.
You do need to try a Courtois 154. Its small bore, large bell, steaight through valve block. Intonation fantastic. Maynard Ferguson played one for years. I bought one cheap a few years ago (a fifth of the new price as the plating was worn). Of the two you played, i prefered the ACB. The Getzen sounded too loose. My flugel sound concept is compact.
Thanks for your comment, Gordon. The 156R or 157R would be my dream flugelhorn, even having never tried one by Courtois. I can tell from the way it responds to Nakariakov's playing that it is likely bar none the best flugel on the market for my needs. I had no idea Maynard played a Courtois. Seems odd given his temperament as a player. I, too, got this Getzen for about 20% of anything resembling a 'new' price, which is what aided my decision in the end. In selling the ACB, I'll be losing very little and gaining better intonation as well as a fourth valve. I can understand where you're coming from as far as the fact goes that you prefer the ACB's sound. However, what I like about the Getzen is the broader gambit it can span. Firstly, it has a nice sort of 'omni-shank' receiver where small US Morse tapers fit best, but both Euro shanks and large US Morse fit reasonably well too. This means that if I want a similar intimacy of sound to the ACB/other Couesnon-style, small French bore flugelhorns, all I need to do (even on this honking large .460" bore) is use my Flip Oakes X1.5 mouthpiece. Quite a lot deeper even than the Wick 2FL that I use for general-purpose flugelhorn. Then, if I want more agility or projection, I can use the Wick or even something ever-so-slightly shallower, although I'm sure you know what sort of risks that involves. I also have a Courtois 1-1/2C flugel piece that I picked up for cheap that would probably be good for such situations. It's not quite dark/spacious enough for my daily driving.
@@SamuelPlaysBrass The Courtois has the same kind of receiver. I often use an old Phil Parker 1FL which was popular with London studio players in the 70s and 80s. I get where you are coming from. The Getzen is a great instrument. Maynard played the Courtois despite being a Holton endorsee. I saw him play it on the first Big Bop Nouveau tour, but there are videos of him playing it as far back as 1976.
On the first question... It depends how much of an advantage the better instrument gives combined with how much it matters. For just playing at home, utilitarian will do - I almost never play Bb cornet anymore, so my old Yamaha Maestro (that I've had for nearly 25 years) will do fine, but if I were playing Bb regularly with a high calibre band then how much better a Besson Prestige plays (for me!) would mean I'd need to find the money. Likewise I could get away with playing a secondhand ca. £500 Yamaha 6610 sop, but I find more than enough performance advantage from my Eclipses to justify how much more they cost!
Depends on the type of instrument too, I’d imagine-on F horn the reason I sold a perfectly decent Conn 6D in favor of an 8D is because tone quality is such a massive part of the equation for horn specifically. The 6D was massively easy to play (probably easier than the 8D) but I couldn’t sustain a good sound at fortissimo. The 8D immediately solved this issue. Soprano… yeah, you DEFINITELY want whatever is the easiest to tune and kills you the least after a long set, I’m realizing! As for your other comment, any idea why the Getzens aren’t widely used in UK BB? I hear a lot of USBB players use them, and if they’re good for anything, it would be BB, given their huge bore/bell construction that practically makes them soprano euphoniums compared to traditional flugelhorns.
@@SamuelPlaysBrass I'm not really sure why Getzens are unpopular in UK BB's. Flugels tend to be either Bach Strads, Yamaha's or Courtois... It shouldn't be anything to do with the popularity of other instruments of the same brand as near enough no other instruments are Bach or Courtois (except a few trombonists) and very few flugels are Besson. Getzens cornets I really like as instruments, very adaptable and easy to play - they can get bright easily at louder dynamics (but then so does the Besson Prestige compared to the older Sovereign, too!) but despite playing really well you'll see almost no bands/players using them... The Getzen sops I've never been particularly impressed with, though. The Flugel I'm not sure about - they play okay, perhaps the sound is more suited to section playing (holding fairly nicely at louder dynamics and giving nicer definition to notes) where the preference here is for flugel to be more of a soloists instrument, with an emphasis on quieter and lighter playing where your Bach/etc is a bit better suited?
I have a 4 valve flugelhorn from Blessing. I adore the 4th valve and I do use it a lot. Although, I want to upgrade and the best 4 valve flugelhorns are in my opinion Courtois 156(N)R or an Adams. Triggers on 3 and in fact also 1 are in my opinion still and always very necessary on flugelhorns. The water buttons are also not my favourite. It all depends on what sound you prefer and how intonation works out. The Bach mouthpiece is a huge no-go for me, it's a flugelhorn, not a warmish trumpet.
I agree-the Courtois is the standard, bar none! There is a reason Sergei Nakariakov uses it to play horn and cello solo literature (although I think his may be the 157R). I truly wish the ACB had a trigger on 1. The Getzen’s intonation is more manageable overall, but the ACB’s top F and any 12 combination is just plainly not right. I might actually look into building a 1st slide trigger for the Getzen if I do get it. And believe me, a 5CFL is usually a complete turn-off on flugelhorn in my opinion, but I purposely wanted to push both horns to the brightest extremes, and even here I found positive results from the Getzen-it didn’t stuff up too much in terms of feel, maintaining a cutesy sort of sound in excerpt 3 and a very balls-to-the-wall ideal German polka sound in excerpt 4. Listen to the original recording of that piece. Pretty nuts.
Just from personal experience but not the exact same control groups, I would stick with the doubler. I owned two Getzen eternas (old style squared off crook) A three valve and a four valve. Both gave me intonation problems, I'm sure the newer model improves that, but in a jazz ensemble setting I had trouble blending with my section. As a solo instrument I think it would be a solid choice, but definately not a one trick pony. I'm looking into having a fourth valve installed on a doublers to have the benefit of a more mainstream style horn, with the extra facilities of having a fourth valve.
I’ve noticed those square crooks, and I hate the look of them. Can’t imagine they feel good to play either. This one with the rounded bends has very consistent intonation. High G is sharp, yes, but the E partial is in tune and the F in between isn’t insurmountably sharp the way it is on my ACB. Blend is very much a valid concern. I could be mistaken, but it seems the Eterna is capable of spanning the full gambit from just about the darkest to basically the brightest sound possible on a flugehorn depending on mouthpiece choice. If I want it to retreat into a non-brass timbre, I can use a Flip Oakes X1.5 that’s even deeper than my Wick. If I want to blend in a jazz section, I think a Bobby Shew flugel piece would probably do the trick. But who knows? We shall see. EDIT: and FWIW, I thought about hacking my own 4th valve onto my Doubler! The trouble is finding enough cylindrical .413 stock inner and outer tubing to make it work…
The range of people’s perception here is kind of surprising! Not saying anyone’s opinion is wrong of course; it just seems we all perceive differently. I think the ACB is overall a tiny bit darker in sound, but I prefer the bigger, more diffused sound of the Getzen (but I think it would be difficult to tell them apart if they were not played side by side). That said, it seems like the Getzen is much much harder to play/control.
I personally believe that it’s up to the player. A 500€ trumpet may sound the same as a 2000 one, but it’s how the player feels when playing with the horn. That’s what we call in Greece whether the horn “listens well to you”.
That is the difficult part. Each horn “listens” to me very differently. The Getzen is more willing to convey the sound in my head, but also “backs up” on me a little in terms of response due to all that extra mass of the larger bell + extra valve and slide.
continued: On the ballad I Remember Clifford I listened with eyes half shut. It's not so much a dead heat. The Getzen seemed to have a fuller sound. It had a sweet edgy quality. If the price difference isn't huge I'd go for the Eferna. I'm in Thailand and there's a guy here selling an Eternal for 50,000 Thai baht ($1,400 USD) A stretch for me, You think it's a fair price?
Getzen is darker, and the 4th valve make more low register possibilities and tuning D and C#, for me the getzen sound warmer, how you feel the differences with response and intonation?
Thank you for your observations! That is a very good question to ask as well. My experience with response and intonation is unfortunately a little messy so far and has made it difficult to draw a definitive conclusion. The ACB has quicker response, to be completely honest. I have to “push” the Getzen a little more, given its increased mass due to the fourth valve/slide and the fact that I am used to the ACB’s quick, Yamaha-like response. The intonation of the ACB is idiosyncratic. Strange patterns of flat and sharp notes. The Getzen’s intonation is overall more consistent, but because I am so used to compensating in certain ways on the ACB, I find it a little hard to play in tune on the Getzen. It seems these two factors require a little more testing, but I am becoming very much drawn to the sound of the Getzen, contrary to my expectation.
@@SamuelPlaysBrass when I hear this video 2nd time, getzen seems like easier to control the sound, on a DW mouthpiece sound is warm and on bach is brighter, but not to bright, which is for me a very good thing. I like when on right mouthpiece we can better manage the sound, from warm sweetness, to brighter like german polka vibe
@@rafajarzynski5705 You make a very good point. This can be interpreted as both a strength and a weakness of the Getzen. It is easier to change tone quality based on the scenario, volume, and mouthpiece cup-this is a very good thing for example on trumpet, F horn, and trombone, but less so on an instrument like euphonium which is expected to maintain a very deep and rich sound regardless of dynamic level. If I can learn to control the Getzen, it will be unstoppable, and I will be able to use it in a huge variety of settings. If I cannot stay in practice and control it, however, then I run the risk of the tone quality getting out of my hands too easily (for instance, fading out in softer dynamics and especially getting harsh at louder dynamics).
From what I hear, the getzen horn has a darker flugel tone which especially noticeable in the 3rd excerpt compared to the doubler which almost sounded like a regular trumpet, but in the end it depends which horn feels better to play for you personally.
Thanks for your observations! The Getzen’s tone seems a little more flexible-not necessarily darker or brighter overall than the ACB in every scenario, but more willing to sit on whichever side of the fence I’d like it to. Take, for instance, the fourth excerpt. I would argue it actually sounded brighter than the ACB there, although I think it sounded 5-10% darker on excerpts 1 and 3. It just feels a little tiring to play for long periods unfortunately…
I couldn't really tell any difference in sound. Maybe I'm just not a good enough listener, or maybe it's the relatively inexpensive earbuds I have. That being said, looking at the specs, my personal preference would be the Getzen because it's larger bore is going to make it feel a lot more like the trumpets I'm accustomed to playing. But I know a lot of people prefer the smaller bore like the ACB, otherwise that bore size would not be so common in flugels. So the bore size probably boils down to a personal preference thing and which you are more comfortable playing. I tend to have champagne taste, but all too often I'm on a beer budget. If I were faced with that choice, I'd obviously love to have the Getzen over the ACB, but in the case of a flugelhorn, I'd really have to ask myself, "Self, how much to you really expect to play that flugelhorn? Am I really going to play it often enough to justify spending the extra money?" Several years ago, I was looking to buy a nice, used flugel, and was hoping to get one of the popular Yamaha models at a price my budget was comfortable with. I bid on several on eBay, but the bids always seemed to go higher than what I wanted to spend. I asked myself the question I posed above to decide whether to increase my bid or to let it go and bid on something else, and I ended up buying an old, very beat-up looking used Conn (made in Switzerland by Wilson) for about $300 which was about 1/3 of what I would have paid for a nice Yamaha back then. Turns out it was the right decision for me to go cheap because it turns out I have rarely played that flugel, and I can count the number of times I used it in any kind of public performance on the fingers on one hand, with more than just a couple of fingers left over. If you expect to keep it a long time and play it frequently, get the Getzen. Otherwise, that ACB is probably the way to go.
Thanks for your comment Richard. I do spend a pretty extensive amount of time on flugelhorn in a variety of settings. Where the ACB has frustrated me most is while playing with my violinist sister, because the pitch on some crucial middle-register notes is just not where it ought to be. The Getzen has a bigger and broader sound. It’s tough to resist. I guess what it will ultimately come down to is how low I can haggle with the current owner of the Getzen.
I don’t think it’s fair to assess intonation in that sense. The Getzen, objectively, has much more consistent intonation across its range. Playing the ACB for three years has left me with ingrained habits to compensate for all the weird notes. I’ve played the Eterna for all of a couple hours, so I have to learn a new set of habits.
I do think it is pretty remarkable how far these Chinese flugels have come tone-wise. With that said, beyond simply the tone aspect, I’m very glad that I got a good enough deal on the Getzen to justify selling the ACB for it, because the intonation improvements of a more reputable flugel over something like an ACB are no joke.
@@trumpetflix Oh, sorry. I wouldn’t know. What you see there is the inside of a practice room at Gonzaga University. However, my parents have some experience with acoustic panels, and I think they use something fairly similar to the Basstrap you mentioned.
I prefer the sound qualities of the doubler over the Eterna. Having that large trumpet bore makes it come across too "trumpetee" especially in the last example. The ACB had a nice warm sound and was just as capable.
Ordinarily, David, I am entirely in agreement with you. A larger valve section bore makes for a less conical bell section and decreases the natural impedance of the instrument, which may make it harder to produce a dark, contained sort of sound. Here's why I believe that's not exactly the case in this instance, though. and why I ultimately preferred the Getzen: 1) The Getzen has a larger bell to compensate. A 6.5" bell is able to provide a much more conical profile for the latter part of the instrument than the ACB's 6", whether the valve section bore is .413" or .460". 2) You're right that the Getzen is able to lean towards the trumpet side of the fence at ff more so than the ACB, but in my opinion it sounds every bit as flugel-ish under the forte line. I played comically harsh in the final sample to push each horn to its extreme - I don't play anything like that 99% of the time I spend with a flugel in my hands. 3) Whereas the ACB has that quintessential thinness and smokiness to its sound, it lacks a certain core that more professional instruments tend to have. The Getzen, while not the smokiest example in existence, is afforded more of that rich, thick center to the tone by its larger specs. Thusly it ended up spanning a wider range of what I wanted to accomplish with the flugel, from jazz ballads to classical solo work.
Honestly both sound great although there’s no reason to keep both. It’s a win either way. ACB would be better for concert and Getzen sounds better for marching
Haha, perhaps that’s a good rule to live by! It’s tough to justify financially as a college student, but I did end up getting the Eterna and selling the Doubler.
Haha, I love your use of the term “giddy up.” I realize I am sort of splitting hairs in terms of tone quality. Even a solid mic like my SM57 doesn’t do the best job of conveying the differences in sound that you can hear in person.
@@SamuelPlaysBrass you played it so you would know better and I saw in your other comment that the Getzen backed up on you but to my ears it felt like you were flowing into notes a touch faster on it.
@@jjschm20 I think it general it is a very open and free-blowing instrument, which is what you were able to discern from the recordings. It is a little bit of a change of pace from the more resistant but “easier” responding ACB.
Always hard to tell with the limits of youtube and your own sound overwhelms the physics of the instrument. But the Getzen has fuller sound while the ACB sounded more responsive. The fourth valve on the getzen seemed more of a hindrance than a benefit, seemed like a gimmick. What did you decide in then end?
Thanks for your comment, Martin. Our observations are largely in line with each other's. The only thing I disagree with is your statement about the fourth valve. I much prefer a 2+4 C# over a 1+2+3+springing out the trigger as far as it will go. Being able to warm up and cool down in the 4th valve register has also been extremely invaluable for my regular low register (which was historically been very poor), especially since on a flugelhorn, you have a useable pedal harmonic, so you can essentially train yourself to add an extra 1.5 octaves to your bottom range. I knew this was largely going to come down to cost. I was willing to lose a few hundred to keep the Getzen, but not much more than that. The seller was extremely generous, as he just wanted to make sure his horn got played (he no longer plays any high brass due to medical complications and instea dplays euphonium), so I ended up getting such a good deal for the Getzen that I couldn't turn it down. I sold the Doubler and the ACB signature mouthpiece I ordered with it to a good friend for most of what I paid for the Getzen. And I have yet to regret my decision. Performing on the Getzen in brass groups and recording situations has affirmed for me time and time again that I made the right choice for my desired sound concept and consistency of intonation.
Too close to call for me, both sound fantastic, the Getzen is the most likely choice for gigging, it all depends on where your heart is, any emotional attachment to the Adams? Had it awhile, that type of thing, can't decide, then just buy the Getzen and keep the Adams. I have a Thomann Jazz, and a Yamaha YFH 631G, same scenario. Horn collecting can get out-of-hand very quickly, as you well know....
Thanks for your comment, Mike. My horn is an Austin Custom Brass import from China, not in the same league as an Adams. I would be emotionally attached to the Adams if I had one. The ACB, I’m surprised to think that I might get rid of soon, but I’m not too attached. I don’t want to end up buying the Getzen unless I know I’m willing to sell the ACB, though. Financial reasons. I can’t afford to be a collector as a broke college student…
@@SamuelPlaysBrass When still studying the instrument, I think you'd better stick to only one instrument, not to get too confused... I just acquired an older than you (squared bell flare at the rear...) 4 valve Getzen, and I find it so sensitive to the mouthpiece you plug in, even for what matters the intonation... Usually better with not too deep a cup mpc... for the intonation... But I like the tone better with a deep cup mpc, like the DW 2BF... Waiting for a Bach 5A FL, and 5V FL, will see... What struck me the most with all your different music samples was the excerpt 3, so nicely rendered on the Getzen. You managed to make it sing softly even with the Bach 5 C FL mp !!! Really not as bright as the next excerpt... I don't play the low D with the 4th valve alone as I tune that one to get the F below the staff in tune with the first and four valve pushed, the E below, in tune with the third and four valve, and the D below with all valves pushed... I saw somewhere on the internet a new 4 valve Eterna with a third valve trigger... must have been a special order???
Ahh man, that 4th valve. Guess it comes down to money, at least it would for me; without financial considerations i would easily choose the getzen. I realize this comment doesn't help at all, sorry.
Any observations help! I also believe I’d choose the Getzen (or keep both) if there were no financial concerns. I suppose my decision will come down to how cheap of a deal I can get on the Getzen, bearing in mind I can expect to sell the ACB for around $500. The goal is to not lose a huge amount of money, seeing as I need to pay for tuition.
I have been playing on the four valve, getzen Eterna for several years. You are not going to get as much value from that fourth valve as you think you will. The third valve trigger on the Austin custom is much more useful. That being said, listening to the clips, I did not really detect any major differences. I think it is a bit hard to tell that level of nuance from recording. My opinion is stick with the acb.
Haha, I appreciate the honesty Greg. I’ve had to reckon with that fact in my decision making. I do a lot of unusual multitracking on my channel and could find ways to put it to use in the sub-F# range, though. Additionally, I think having that extra range is very helpful for “over-training” in the sense that if you can get a solid low D with four valves, a good low G won’t be a problem. I struggle with the low register on all high brass instruments, and this horn pushes me.
Food for thought the next time you are faced with choising equipment. You were simply focused on the financial aspect, however, in the big picture, the one major factor you left out is what type of group you are playing your flugelhorn in? As with all equipment choices, this has to be a major consideration in your decision! The ACB has more clarity and projection, where as the Getzen has a warmer, more intimate sound. There is no perfect equipment that covers all the genres possible. If you play in combos, brass quintet, or smaller type group, the more intimate sound of the Getzen is preferable. If you are using it for big band, a funk group, or brass band where you are playing outside, your main concern is projection over sound, otherwise you will be working harder than you need to, making your chops give out over a long gig. For these groups, you would want the ACB.
Thanks for your insight, Robert. On an unrelated note, I notice you share a surname with a historic maker of conical brass. Couturier brass are very interesting horns. I recently saw my first Couturier trombone (unfortunately a dud from a playability standpoint, but still an amazing piece of historical engineering). You raise a good point, but I will to some extent counter it-first off, my flugel sound concept is rooted in small ensemble work, so you were correct in that the Getzen ended up being a better fit for the sound I wanted to produce. But in the case of a larger ensemble or funk group, I can always plug in a slightly shallower and harsher-sounding mouthpiece that aids in projection, whereas on the other side of the tonal spectrum I wouldn’t want to go any deeper than, preferably, my Denis Wick 2B, or else no matter which flugelhorn I use, my upper register will be flat and liveless. In that sense I think the Getzen would perform as well/better for me than the ACB not only on average but in just about any setting.
@@SamuelPlaysBrass Sorry so late, but the acb had a more dramatic sound, much more. Super melancholic and very expressive. It spoke to me, I understood it's pain. The Getzen wasn't a slouch by anymeans though!
I understand the audio conditions are not ideal to tell the difference between the two, especially if you’re not listening via headphones, but they are still reasonably different in sound even if they are both flugelhorns.
![[MV] A leap of faith...ความเชื่อใจครั้งสุดท้าย (From "Petrichor the series")](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/U1piZH2CNXA/mqdefault.jpg)
*UPDATE: sold the ACB, bought the Getzen!*
A couple notes: I know this isn’t a total one-to-one because I have played the ACB for three years and the Getzen for all of a few days. Additionally, recording the tests first on the ACB made me more fatigued while recording on the Getzen. However, I hope these tests are good enough that you can tell some key differences between the horns and let me know!
@@SamuelPlaysBrass a year later...what is your conclusion?
(1) Yes, you are conditioned to be comfortable on the ACB, which skews your results.
(2) The Getzen is heavier and harder in temper vs the softer annealed higher copper thinner ACB. Beyond tonal issues (next line), this makes the ACB respond a little easier.
(3) The ACB, with higher copper in the bell, can soak up a bit more highs if you don't control your tonal inputs as well. On the other hand, the Getzen will project your tone far better without going harsh if you do the work to control tone to start with, basically, through the deadening effect of mass.
(4) The Getzen has a 4th valve, but you are comfortable with the ACB trigger. That made intonation a wash in these samples, but in a longer playing setting, 4th will cover for when you tire better.
(5) The Getzen maintains a consistent sound across dynamics, while the ACB fluctuates with dynamic. The Getzen overall tends toward a more professional consistency.
(6) Ultimately, even after allowing for your familiarity, the ACB will give you the tone you want easier, though not at every dynamic, while the Getzen will reward you if you work harder with a more consistent and superior overall capability.
So, are you looking for status quo with ease, or more in return for harder work?
In typical RB fashion, this is the most thorough analysis I’ve seen so far. For the most part it lines up pretty closely with my own analysis. I think the Getzen is harder work to play, full stop. It takes a lot of energy to excite the air molecules in such a heavyweight horn, from that big bell to the 4th valve and slide. That’s a turn-off to be certain, but I am starting to wonder if the intonation and sound benefits are worth that sacrifice.
I am also of the belief that the 4th valve (once I am used to it) will be a better solution than a 3rd trigger. If the ACB had *both* a 1 and 3 trigger, that might be a different story, as most of its bad notes involve the 1st valve and a 1 trigger would be incredibly useful. However, as you mentioned, when my hands are tired I’d much rather pop a quick 2+4 for a low C# than 1+2+3 *and* springing out the trigger all the way to the end of its reach.
So, if I am reading this correctly, you believe the Getzen has a more complex but more consistent tone? That has been my observation thus far. I also like the slightly better projection of the large bell and bore. I usually don’t trust .460” bores on flugelhorn, but that big conical bell diffuses the sound pleasantly. I think I can also get it to sound soft and fluffy enough for jazz ballads, especially if I use an extra-cavernous Flip Oakes X1.5 mouthpiece. And to think I believed the Wick 2FL was deep…
Anyway, thanks for all your thoughts, Ron. I think the Getzen is showing promise but ultimately I won’t know my decision for certain until the price haggling happens.
Hi Samuel,
Very nice demo playing comparison between the two flugelhorns.
To my ears on a Samsung tablet with Bluetooth ear buds,
The two horns sound virtually identical. Very hard to hear a difference. Maybe, just maybe the Getzen sounded a tiny bit crisper. But for my taste the Flugelhorn is well
Suited for a ballad with its melancholy natural sound. Both horns sounded great on I Remember Clifford. Maybe I will listen again with eyes shut. But on first go, I can't tell them apart.
I am a flugelhorn player for the local Brass Band. I have several flugelhorns anywhere from the Adams F5 to the ACB doubler. My personal favorite is the Getzen 4-valve model. The sound of the Getzen 4-valve is more mellow and a full bodied sound. I did notice on your video that you did use the 4th valve on several notes. That in itself is a dead giveaway as to the intonation advantage towards the Getzen 4-valve. I have no idea of the deal you are going to get for the Getzen but take the deal. You will thank yourself in the end.
Thanks for your comment, Thomas. Good to have your insight. I guess I never updated the pinned comment on this video, but I did indeed end up going for the Getzen. My preference up to that point had been for a smoky and diffuse flugelhorn tone, but I, too, ended up developing a liking for the Getzen’s broader tone. Even outside of use of the fourth valve, the Getzen’s intonation was also quite a bit better. I ended up paying little more for it than I sold my Doubler for, so the choice was pretty obvious in the end. Very happy with the new horn. I filmed videos of me on a Christmas gig with most of the same tunes in 2022 and 2023 and I could tell I was working less hard and playing more in tune in the more recent one thanks to the Getzen.
Good video! As a listener I couldn't tell a noticeable difference between the two. I'd say in the polka the Getzen had a much brighter tone but it's difficult to say if that was more due to differences in position of your bell in relation to the mic. I'd say whichever one is more comfortable to play is probably a better option. Good luck!
Thanks Luke! I think you’re right in your observation about the Getzen-it seems less “locked in” to a particular tone quality than the Doubler, which can be a good or very bad thing depending on the instance! Ease of playing definitely turns out to be an important factor in the decision making process, as you said. FWIW, the Doubler is crazy easy to play! Might still be winning between these two.
IMHO, the Bach mpc is a bad match to the Getzen, that otherwise deliver a smoother and fuller tone than the ACB flugel...
You can definitely tell that the Getzen is a better horn the sound is more focused it has kind of a dark sound with a bright aura if you can figure out what I mean. The ACB sounds more spread out not as focused kind of puffy not in a good way. Maybe the monster Wick 2 mouthpiece is to much for that horn?
I think which ever horn plays in tune easier is the one to keep. Back in the day we sold our Getzens and bought Yamahas. The Getzen 4 valve I played was like wrestling an alligator the intonation wasn’t the greatest and the .460 bore Flugelhorn drained you. Keep the ACB and get an old Yamaha if one comes up for a good price. Your playing is great and I love your videos!!!!
First off, you could make a garden hose sound good!
.... The ACB Doubler is a nice horn but won't retain it's resale value like the Getzen. If the Getzen is a good deal, I would jump on it. I spent several years looking for a 4 valve flugel. They don't seem to come up as often. You can do anything that a 3 valve can do and more with the 4 valve.
The four valve flugels are a different animal than the three valve. It's a slightly different "blow" with the added mass to the instrument and slightly larger bell. But what I have found is that it gives me more mouthpiece options and color of sound.
And probably just me.... The four valve flugels are harder to make sound like a trumpet and keep their flugel characteristics through out the registers. Also seems to slot better. And you can't beat the extended low register. I have been able to double up the bass line in a few ensembles because of it. Just my two cents.
So good to hear from you TL! How are things?
You mirror my thoughts thus far almost exactly. I’m really leaning towards the Getzen. I was suspicious of how it would play with an ML trumpet bore because I’ve been pretty loyal to the French .413” bore and I firmly believed that the small bore at the valves allowed for a more conical apparatus overall. However, given the larger bell, the Getzen is plenty conical, and the added mass definitely helps ensure the horn doesn’t cross into “bright” territory. I’m really hoping I can get a good deal on it as I’ve been giddy for a four-valve for years. I still think one day I’ll have to graduate to a Courtois like Sergei Nakariakov, but for now, assuming it won’t break my bank (fingers crossed…), the Getzen is a GREAT horn.
@@SamuelPlaysBrass Things are going well. Really happy to see your channel growing.
Sounds like we are on the same wave length.... or just have similar experience.😄
Excellent points about the 4V platform.
When a player cannot afford FL Professional, they must go ACB Doubler. Austin Custom Brass Doubler is the only PRC flugelhorn import operating in America that could ever stand up on this video. They do much more cleaning and tweaking than drop shipment alone. You almost never see an ACB Doubler FL pre owned in the market. They are the new wave in brass: vetted and upgraded PRC batch importing.
I play the flugelhorn. The ACB has the classic dark, rich, smoky sound as it should have. The Getzen is much brighter and sweeter. Very easy choice for me as a listener - ACB all the way. But I imagine you are struggling to decide because the Getzen is easier to play as it’s a professional model. I feel your pain. If the Getzen was in clear laquer like the ACB it would be the Getzen that would win.
Thanks for your comment, Gwen. Interesting observations. Mine are the polar opposite. I find the Getzen to have a darker and huskier sound than the ACB but I also find it harder to play. I frankly don’t think the silver vs. lacquer makes very much of a difference. I do wish the Getzen had a copper-enhanced bell flare like the ACB does as I would probably like its tone even more in that case.
I reckon the Getzen with its wider bore and darker sound is a clear winner. It is by a country mile different from the sound of the trumpet and cornet and while you can brighten the tone if needed, it offers far more differentiation of timbre. Needless to say, the 4th valve is a bonus, giving an extra boost to the low range. If it were me, I don’t think I’d hesitate.
Thank you for your feedback, Edward! You see exactly what I see in the Getzen. I have mixed feelings about it, but it has a very wide tonal palate ranging from darker than the ACB on one extreme to almost a perfect German polka band flugelhorn on the other. This, of course, means I need to be more timbre-conscious on the Getzen than my ACB, but it may be a change worth making. And yes, that fourth valve increases the usable range from 2.5 octaves to about four.
Getzen Eterna sounds like it's a bit easier to play, ACB Doubler's is a bit more brassy with bite (but in a good way). Getzen Eterna playing jazz was sublime. What a wonderfully difficult choice! Whatever you pick, I'm sure you'll always have that remorse of 'what if...?' But I'm sure you'll choose wisely.
Difficult choice indeed! I prefer the sound and intonation of the Getzen, but the flexibility and ease of the ACB. No such thing as a 100% win here…
I owned a Getzen 4 valve flugelhorn for several years. I sold it to my church when I found an Olds L-12 that was lighter by far. As an older player I appreciated the lighter horn that was more agile in my hands. The Olds is a bit bigger that the traditional French bore of .410-ish but MUch smaller than the Getzen .460. It adds up over a 4 hour gig.
Thanks for your comment, Cindi. The weight of the Getzen is certainly a consideration, but in several months of owning it, I have yet to find it more tiring to play on a gig than a French bore. What I wish the Getzen did have is (a) better ergonomics and (b) a 1st-slide trigger, but unfortunately the 1st slide doesn’t have much pull room.
Funnily enough, I own both of these models myself, but I actually went in the other direction (owned the Eterna first and then bought the doubler's horn with the intent to sell the Eterna). This actually makes me think I need to record some things on both and listen to that. Behind the bell, I like my sound on the ACB more, but in your video I couldn't tell a large difference. I'd personally say it should come down to your experience playing each and if you like the utility of the 4th valve.
Let me know of your observations if you end up recording each! At first I had no doubts from behind the bell that I preferred the ACB, and I planned to just borrow the Eterna long enough to film a review. Now, however, I am on the fence, because I’m starting to like them almost equally from behind and the Eterna perhaps ever so slightly more from in front.
I cannot think of any other PRC import flugelhorn that would stand up to an Eterna so remarkably. ACB is fourth of the cost new?
@directcurrent5751 something like that. Eternas seem to be around $2700 new. I'm realizing I never recorded anything, but I do still like the sound of the ACB more behind the bell. It's in the shop, but I actually did buy an alto flugelhorn in F recently, so now I really don't have a reason to have a 4 valve.
I have been really happy with my Dillon Flugelhorn 475.00 they are in NJ
Glad you’re enjoying it! It’s very similar to my ACB, but it sounds like you got an even better deal than I did!
I like the 4 valve because of the versatility and expanded range
True, I am all for the Sergei Nakariakov setup, but if I end up selling the ACB I want to be 100% certain that I’m not making any sacrifices in tone quality or ease of playing just for the sake of a low register gimmick.
@@SamuelPlaysBrass how low can it go ik you probably addressed this but asking again
@@cool_nation No worries, I actually haven’t addressed that topic. Imagine a three-valve can go down to a low F#, right? Well, the fourth valve more or less fills in the notes between that and the “pedal” C (a note that sounds like a trombone). Then once you get to the pedal C on an open fingering, you do it all over again. Down to pedal F#, then engage the fourth valve and you can get to a pedal D or C# reasonably. In concert pitches, that’s the 2nd lowest C or B natural on the piano keyboard, well below the bass clef staff!
Hello Sam. In my opinion, it all depends on the tasks. Depends on the music you want to play. For example, for jazz and pop, I would choose ABS Dubler in tandem with Marcinkiewicz Bobby Shew. And for performing classics or playing in brass groups - of course Getzen in the company Denis Wick 3BFL/4BFL (why B, “bright”? - yes, it has a smaller cup, but due to this it is easier to control intonation). Something like that. success
Thank you for your feedback. My preference is still for the 2FL over any ‘BFL’ cup almost regardless of genre, but I understand that for many, the smaller cup helps with pitch control.
Its interesting that you're not overly swayed by the Eterna - they're not highly rated at all in brass band circles...
I'm not hearing the kind of difference I'd want to spend money on - I'd put it aside for something else (a different flugel or otherwise).
These Chinese flugels with QC done by the dealer are solid utilitarian horns - they're better than the price tag suggests.
But not many brass importers do QC and hands on tweaking, better MP, etc. Totally drop shipped on many of the Amazon and eBay deals.
To be frank you never truly will hear a difference that match's the gap in prices unless it's a brighter or darker in sound.
The true difference between horn levels is how well they hold up between maintaince, how easy it is to blow air and play the upper register without the use of lead mouthpieces and heavy valve caps, etc, the clarity of the sound, projection, and lastly the tuning certain notes so you do not need to rely on alternate fingerings to be in tune or using your lips to get it in tune.
Honestly for me, the important aspects of this would be free blowing, easy upper register, and projection more than anything else. Lee Morgan for example recorded Cornbread on an olds ambassador. Honestly the most important upgrade is the mouthpiece you use. I've tested a Yamaha xeno to compare to my olds ambassador and Honestly the xeno didn't sound any better just brighter with an easier upper register however I still hand the same range both and I do not want a brighter tone, I've spent 4 years developing a dark tone for my jazz lol. Correctly I have a besson Brevete flugelhorn and will add the doubler to my batch.
@@kamikazehound3243 I wasn't talking about tonal differences - or at least not directly... It's more a question of how much manipulation is required to get around the tuning of the two.
Tone matters to a point, yes, but only when everything else is right - sounding a million bucks on some notes is useless if you have to lip others so much there's no overtones left.
Intonation is THE most important thing - if it's not in tune with itself, move on (fast!)... It'll be harder work than it's worth to play, restrict what you can even do with it and make life a misery.
This might be a slightly elitist perspective in terms of why it matters to me, but I think it holds pretty well - and if your own playing isn't in a position to assess a given horn, take someone with you who is!
@@EnglishTMTB IF the QC and tweaking are applied to every horn. In the USA, the company run by Austin Trent ACB, seems the most comprehensive treatment of brass imports from PRC.
@@EnglishTMTB can't argue with that💯
You do need to try a Courtois 154. Its small bore, large bell, steaight through valve block. Intonation fantastic. Maynard Ferguson played one for years. I bought one cheap a few years ago (a fifth of the new price as the plating was worn). Of the two you played, i prefered the ACB. The Getzen sounded too loose. My flugel sound concept is compact.
Thanks for your comment, Gordon. The 156R or 157R would be my dream flugelhorn, even having never tried one by Courtois. I can tell from the way it responds to Nakariakov's playing that it is likely bar none the best flugel on the market for my needs. I had no idea Maynard played a Courtois. Seems odd given his temperament as a player. I, too, got this Getzen for about 20% of anything resembling a 'new' price, which is what aided my decision in the end. In selling the ACB, I'll be losing very little and gaining better intonation as well as a fourth valve.
I can understand where you're coming from as far as the fact goes that you prefer the ACB's sound. However, what I like about the Getzen is the broader gambit it can span. Firstly, it has a nice sort of 'omni-shank' receiver where small US Morse tapers fit best, but both Euro shanks and large US Morse fit reasonably well too. This means that if I want a similar intimacy of sound to the ACB/other Couesnon-style, small French bore flugelhorns, all I need to do (even on this honking large .460" bore) is use my Flip Oakes X1.5 mouthpiece. Quite a lot deeper even than the Wick 2FL that I use for general-purpose flugelhorn. Then, if I want more agility or projection, I can use the Wick or even something ever-so-slightly shallower, although I'm sure you know what sort of risks that involves. I also have a Courtois 1-1/2C flugel piece that I picked up for cheap that would probably be good for such situations. It's not quite dark/spacious enough for my daily driving.
@@SamuelPlaysBrass The Courtois has the same kind of receiver. I often use an old Phil Parker 1FL which was popular with London studio players in the 70s and 80s. I get where you are coming from. The Getzen is a great instrument. Maynard played the Courtois despite being a Holton endorsee. I saw him play it on the first Big Bop Nouveau tour, but there are videos of him playing it as far back as 1976.
On the first question... It depends how much of an advantage the better instrument gives combined with how much it matters.
For just playing at home, utilitarian will do - I almost never play Bb cornet anymore, so my old Yamaha Maestro (that I've had for nearly 25 years) will do fine, but if I were playing Bb regularly with a high calibre band then how much better a Besson Prestige plays (for me!) would mean I'd need to find the money.
Likewise I could get away with playing a secondhand ca. £500 Yamaha 6610 sop, but I find more than enough performance advantage from my Eclipses to justify how much more they cost!
Depends on the type of instrument too, I’d imagine-on F horn the reason I sold a perfectly decent Conn 6D in favor of an 8D is because tone quality is such a massive part of the equation for horn specifically. The 6D was massively easy to play (probably easier than the 8D) but I couldn’t sustain a good sound at fortissimo. The 8D immediately solved this issue.
Soprano… yeah, you DEFINITELY want whatever is the easiest to tune and kills you the least after a long set, I’m realizing!
As for your other comment, any idea why the Getzens aren’t widely used in UK BB? I hear a lot of USBB players use them, and if they’re good for anything, it would be BB, given their huge bore/bell construction that practically makes them soprano euphoniums compared to traditional flugelhorns.
@@SamuelPlaysBrass I'm not really sure why Getzens are unpopular in UK BB's.
Flugels tend to be either Bach Strads, Yamaha's or Courtois... It shouldn't be anything to do with the popularity of other instruments of the same brand as near enough no other instruments are Bach or Courtois (except a few trombonists) and very few flugels are Besson.
Getzens cornets I really like as instruments, very adaptable and easy to play - they can get bright easily at louder dynamics (but then so does the Besson Prestige compared to the older Sovereign, too!) but despite playing really well you'll see almost no bands/players using them...
The Getzen sops I've never been particularly impressed with, though.
The Flugel I'm not sure about - they play okay, perhaps the sound is more suited to section playing (holding fairly nicely at louder dynamics and giving nicer definition to notes) where the preference here is for flugel to be more of a soloists instrument, with an emphasis on quieter and lighter playing where your Bach/etc is a bit better suited?
I have a 4 valve flugelhorn from Blessing. I adore the 4th valve and I do use it a lot. Although, I want to upgrade and the best 4 valve flugelhorns are in my opinion Courtois 156(N)R or an Adams.
Triggers on 3 and in fact also 1 are in my opinion still and always very necessary on flugelhorns. The water buttons are also not my favourite. It all depends on what sound you prefer and how intonation works out. The Bach mouthpiece is a huge no-go for me, it's a flugelhorn, not a warmish trumpet.
I agree-the Courtois is the standard, bar none! There is a reason Sergei Nakariakov uses it to play horn and cello solo literature (although I think his may be the 157R).
I truly wish the ACB had a trigger on 1. The Getzen’s intonation is more manageable overall, but the ACB’s top F and any 12 combination is just plainly not right. I might actually look into building a 1st slide trigger for the Getzen if I do get it.
And believe me, a 5CFL is usually a complete turn-off on flugelhorn in my opinion, but I purposely wanted to push both horns to the brightest extremes, and even here I found positive results from the Getzen-it didn’t stuff up too much in terms of feel, maintaining a cutesy sort of sound in excerpt 3 and a very balls-to-the-wall ideal German polka sound in excerpt 4. Listen to the original recording of that piece. Pretty nuts.
The three valve horn sounded a tad bit darker to me than the four valve fugal. You sound great on both but that’s what I noticed!
Good to know, thanks!
Just from personal experience but not the exact same control groups, I would stick with the doubler. I owned two Getzen eternas (old style squared off crook) A three valve and a four valve. Both gave me intonation problems, I'm sure the newer model improves that, but in a jazz ensemble setting I had trouble blending with my section. As a solo instrument I think it would be a solid choice, but definately not a one trick pony. I'm looking into having a fourth valve installed on a doublers to have the benefit of a more mainstream style horn, with the extra facilities of having a fourth valve.
I’ve noticed those square crooks, and I hate the look of them. Can’t imagine they feel good to play either. This one with the rounded bends has very consistent intonation. High G is sharp, yes, but the E partial is in tune and the F in between isn’t insurmountably sharp the way it is on my ACB.
Blend is very much a valid concern. I could be mistaken, but it seems the Eterna is capable of spanning the full gambit from just about the darkest to basically the brightest sound possible on a flugehorn depending on mouthpiece choice. If I want it to retreat into a non-brass timbre, I can use a Flip Oakes X1.5 that’s even deeper than my Wick. If I want to blend in a jazz section, I think a Bobby Shew flugel piece would probably do the trick. But who knows? We shall see.
EDIT: and FWIW, I thought about hacking my own 4th valve onto my Doubler! The trouble is finding enough cylindrical .413 stock inner and outer tubing to make it work…
The range of people’s perception here is kind of surprising! Not saying anyone’s opinion is wrong of course; it just seems we all perceive differently. I think the ACB is overall a tiny bit darker in sound, but I prefer the bigger, more diffused sound of the Getzen (but I think it would be difficult to tell them apart if they were not played side by side). That said, it seems like the Getzen is much much harder to play/control.
I personally believe that it’s up to the player. A 500€ trumpet may sound the same as a 2000 one, but it’s how the player feels when playing with the horn. That’s what we call in Greece whether the horn “listens well to you”.
That is the difficult part. Each horn “listens” to me very differently. The Getzen is more willing to convey the sound in my head, but also “backs up” on me a little in terms of response due to all that extra mass of the larger bell + extra valve and slide.
continued:
On the ballad I Remember Clifford I listened with eyes half shut. It's not so much a dead heat. The Getzen seemed to have a fuller sound. It had a sweet edgy quality. If the price difference isn't huge I'd go for the Eferna.
I'm in Thailand and there's a guy here selling an Eternal for 50,000 Thai baht
($1,400 USD) A stretch for me, You think it's a fair price?
I think that you should buy the Getzen Eterna! I think that it has a darker better tone! It sounds better!👍
Thanks for your observations, Peter! I think you might be right. I am still deciding because the ACB, having less mass, is a little easier to play.
Getzen is darker, and the 4th valve make more low register possibilities and tuning D and C#, for me the getzen sound warmer, how you feel the differences with response and intonation?
I second this
i third this
Thank you for your observations! That is a very good question to ask as well. My experience with response and intonation is unfortunately a little messy so far and has made it difficult to draw a definitive conclusion.
The ACB has quicker response, to be completely honest. I have to “push” the Getzen a little more, given its increased mass due to the fourth valve/slide and the fact that I am used to the ACB’s quick, Yamaha-like response.
The intonation of the ACB is idiosyncratic. Strange patterns of flat and sharp notes. The Getzen’s intonation is overall more consistent, but because I am so used to compensating in certain ways on the ACB, I find it a little hard to play in tune on the Getzen.
It seems these two factors require a little more testing, but I am becoming very much drawn to the sound of the Getzen, contrary to my expectation.
@@SamuelPlaysBrass when I hear this video 2nd time, getzen seems like easier to control the sound, on a DW mouthpiece sound is warm and on bach is brighter, but not to bright, which is for me a very good thing. I like when on right mouthpiece we can better manage the sound, from warm sweetness, to brighter like german polka vibe
@@rafajarzynski5705 You make a very good point. This can be interpreted as both a strength and a weakness of the Getzen. It is easier to change tone quality based on the scenario, volume, and mouthpiece cup-this is a very good thing for example on trumpet, F horn, and trombone, but less so on an instrument like euphonium which is expected to maintain a very deep and rich sound regardless of dynamic level. If I can learn to control the Getzen, it will be unstoppable, and I will be able to use it in a huge variety of settings. If I cannot stay in practice and control it, however, then I run the risk of the tone quality getting out of my hands too easily (for instance, fading out in softer dynamics and especially getting harsh at louder dynamics).
From what I hear, the getzen horn has a darker flugel tone which especially noticeable in the 3rd excerpt compared to the doubler which almost sounded like a regular trumpet, but in the end it depends which horn feels better to play for you personally.
Thanks for your observations! The Getzen’s tone seems a little more flexible-not necessarily darker or brighter overall than the ACB in every scenario, but more willing to sit on whichever side of the fence I’d like it to. Take, for instance, the fourth excerpt. I would argue it actually sounded brighter than the ACB there, although I think it sounded 5-10% darker on excerpts 1 and 3. It just feels a little tiring to play for long periods unfortunately…
I couldn't really tell any difference in sound. Maybe I'm just not a good enough listener, or maybe it's the relatively inexpensive earbuds I have.
That being said, looking at the specs, my personal preference would be the Getzen because it's larger bore is going to make it feel a lot more like the trumpets I'm accustomed to playing. But I know a lot of people prefer the smaller bore like the ACB, otherwise that bore size would not be so common in flugels. So the bore size probably boils down to a personal preference thing and which you are more comfortable playing. I tend to have champagne taste, but all too often I'm on a beer budget. If I were faced with that choice, I'd obviously love to have the Getzen over the ACB, but in the case of a flugelhorn, I'd really have to ask myself, "Self, how much to you really expect to play that flugelhorn? Am I really going to play it often enough to justify spending the extra money?" Several years ago, I was looking to buy a nice, used flugel, and was hoping to get one of the popular Yamaha models at a price my budget was comfortable with. I bid on several on eBay, but the bids always seemed to go higher than what I wanted to spend. I asked myself the question I posed above to decide whether to increase my bid or to let it go and bid on something else, and I ended up buying an old, very beat-up looking used Conn (made in Switzerland by Wilson) for about $300 which was about 1/3 of what I would have paid for a nice Yamaha back then. Turns out it was the right decision for me to go cheap because it turns out I have rarely played that flugel, and I can count the number of times I used it in any kind of public performance on the fingers on one hand, with more than just a couple of fingers left over. If you expect to keep it a long time and play it frequently, get the Getzen. Otherwise, that ACB is probably the way to go.
Thanks for your comment Richard. I do spend a pretty extensive amount of time on flugelhorn in a variety of settings. Where the ACB has frustrated me most is while playing with my violinist sister, because the pitch on some crucial middle-register notes is just not where it ought to be. The Getzen has a bigger and broader sound. It’s tough to resist. I guess what it will ultimately come down to is how low I can haggle with the current owner of the Getzen.
You played the ACB with better intonation and tone. I grew playing Bessons in HS and College for that very reason.
I don’t think it’s fair to assess intonation in that sense. The Getzen, objectively, has much more consistent intonation across its range. Playing the ACB for three years has left me with ingrained habits to compensate for all the weird notes. I’ve played the Eterna for all of a couple hours, so I have to learn a new set of habits.
Getzen gives you a slightly fuller sound, but surprisingly subtle as compared to the ACB...
I do think it is pretty remarkable how far these Chinese flugels have come tone-wise. With that said, beyond simply the tone aspect, I’m very glad that I got a good enough deal on the Getzen to justify selling the ACB for it, because the intonation improvements of a more reputable flugel over something like an ACB are no joke.
Is that an accoustic Basstrap on the wall?
No, I'm not familiar with what you're talking about.
I mean those gray accoustics panels on the wall when you're testing the horns.
@@trumpetflix Oh, sorry. I wouldn’t know. What you see there is the inside of a practice room at Gonzaga University. However, my parents have some experience with acoustic panels, and I think they use something fairly similar to the Basstrap you mentioned.
brass colored horn sounds better to my ear. Mellow and clean like I want.
I prefer the sound qualities of the doubler over the Eterna. Having that large trumpet bore makes it come across too "trumpetee" especially in the last example. The ACB had a nice warm sound and was just as capable.
Ordinarily, David, I am entirely in agreement with you. A larger valve section bore makes for a less conical bell section and decreases the natural impedance of the instrument, which may make it harder to produce a dark, contained sort of sound. Here's why I believe that's not exactly the case in this instance, though. and why I ultimately preferred the Getzen:
1) The Getzen has a larger bell to compensate. A 6.5" bell is able to provide a much more conical profile for the latter part of the instrument than the ACB's 6", whether the valve section bore is .413" or .460".
2) You're right that the Getzen is able to lean towards the trumpet side of the fence at ff more so than the ACB, but in my opinion it sounds every bit as flugel-ish under the forte line. I played comically harsh in the final sample to push each horn to its extreme - I don't play anything like that 99% of the time I spend with a flugel in my hands.
3) Whereas the ACB has that quintessential thinness and smokiness to its sound, it lacks a certain core that more professional instruments tend to have. The Getzen, while not the smokiest example in existence, is afforded more of that rich, thick center to the tone by its larger specs. Thusly it ended up spanning a wider range of what I wanted to accomplish with the flugel, from jazz ballads to classical solo work.
Polka!
Honestly both sound great although there’s no reason to keep both. It’s a win either way. ACB would be better for concert and Getzen sounds better for marching
Marching flugel? Sounds very bizarre. The Getzen does have a bigger sound but it’s also correspondingly woofier, I think.
I have never regretted any decision to spend more for what I really want.
Haha, perhaps that’s a good rule to live by! It’s tough to justify financially as a college student, but I did end up getting the Eterna and selling the Doubler.
The Getzen sounded more responsive to me like it had a little more giddy up. But the sound quality difference was pretty negligible to me.
Haha, I love your use of the term “giddy up.” I realize I am sort of splitting hairs in terms of tone quality. Even a solid mic like my SM57 doesn’t do the best job of conveying the differences in sound that you can hear in person.
@@SamuelPlaysBrass you played it so you would know better and I saw in your other comment that the Getzen backed up on you but to my ears it felt like you were flowing into notes a touch faster on it.
@@jjschm20 I think it general it is a very open and free-blowing instrument, which is what you were able to discern from the recordings. It is a little bit of a change of pace from the more resistant but “easier” responding ACB.
Always hard to tell with the limits of youtube and your own sound overwhelms the physics of the instrument. But the Getzen has fuller sound while the ACB sounded more responsive. The fourth valve on the getzen seemed more of a hindrance than a benefit, seemed like a gimmick.
What did you decide in then end?
Thanks for your comment, Martin. Our observations are largely in line with each other's. The only thing I disagree with is your statement about the fourth valve. I much prefer a 2+4 C# over a 1+2+3+springing out the trigger as far as it will go. Being able to warm up and cool down in the 4th valve register has also been extremely invaluable for my regular low register (which was historically been very poor), especially since on a flugelhorn, you have a useable pedal harmonic, so you can essentially train yourself to add an extra 1.5 octaves to your bottom range.
I knew this was largely going to come down to cost. I was willing to lose a few hundred to keep the Getzen, but not much more than that. The seller was extremely generous, as he just wanted to make sure his horn got played (he no longer plays any high brass due to medical complications and instea dplays euphonium), so I ended up getting such a good deal for the Getzen that I couldn't turn it down. I sold the Doubler and the ACB signature mouthpiece I ordered with it to a good friend for most of what I paid for the Getzen. And I have yet to regret my decision. Performing on the Getzen in brass groups and recording situations has affirmed for me time and time again that I made the right choice for my desired sound concept and consistency of intonation.
The Getzen has a better tone. Good choice I think.
@@weshughes5180 Thanks for your feedback Wes. I’ve been very happy indeed with the Getzen, especially considering the steal of a price I paid!
Too close to call for me, both sound fantastic, the Getzen is the most likely choice for gigging, it all depends on where your heart is, any emotional attachment to the Adams? Had it awhile, that type of thing, can't decide, then just buy the Getzen and keep the Adams. I have a Thomann Jazz, and a Yamaha YFH 631G, same scenario. Horn collecting can get out-of-hand very quickly, as you well know....
Thanks for your comment, Mike. My horn is an Austin Custom Brass import from China, not in the same league as an Adams. I would be emotionally attached to the Adams if I had one. The ACB, I’m surprised to think that I might get rid of soon, but I’m not too attached. I don’t want to end up buying the Getzen unless I know I’m willing to sell the ACB, though. Financial reasons. I can’t afford to be a collector as a broke college student…
@@SamuelPlaysBrass
When still studying the instrument, I think you'd better stick to only one instrument, not to get too confused...
I just acquired an older than you (squared bell flare at the rear...) 4 valve Getzen, and I find it so sensitive to the mouthpiece you plug in, even for what matters the intonation... Usually better with not too deep a cup mpc... for the intonation...
But I like the tone better with a deep cup mpc, like the DW 2BF... Waiting for a Bach 5A FL, and 5V FL, will see...
What struck me the most with all your different music samples was the excerpt 3, so nicely rendered on the Getzen.
You managed to make it sing softly even with the Bach 5 C FL mp !!! Really not as bright as the next excerpt...
I don't play the low D with the 4th valve alone as I tune that one to get the F below the staff in tune with the first and four valve pushed, the E below, in tune with the third and four valve, and the D below with all valves pushed...
I saw somewhere on the internet a new 4 valve Eterna with a third valve trigger... must have been a special order???
Ahh man, that 4th valve. Guess it comes down to money, at least it would for me; without financial considerations i would easily choose the getzen. I realize this comment doesn't help at all, sorry.
Any observations help! I also believe I’d choose the Getzen (or keep both) if there were no financial concerns. I suppose my decision will come down to how cheap of a deal I can get on the Getzen, bearing in mind I can expect to sell the ACB for around $500. The goal is to not lose a huge amount of money, seeing as I need to pay for tuition.
I have been playing on the four valve, getzen Eterna for several years. You are not going to get as much value from that fourth valve as you think you will. The third valve trigger on the Austin custom is much more useful. That being said, listening to the clips, I did not really detect any major differences. I think it is a bit hard to tell that level of nuance from recording. My opinion is stick with the acb.
Haha, I appreciate the honesty Greg. I’ve had to reckon with that fact in my decision making. I do a lot of unusual multitracking on my channel and could find ways to put it to use in the sub-F# range, though. Additionally, I think having that extra range is very helpful for “over-training” in the sense that if you can get a solid low D with four valves, a good low G won’t be a problem. I struggle with the low register on all high brass instruments, and this horn pushes me.
Food for thought the next time you are faced with choising equipment. You were simply focused on the financial aspect, however, in the big picture, the one major factor you left out is what type of group you are playing your flugelhorn in? As with all equipment choices, this has to be a major consideration in your decision! The ACB has more clarity and projection, where as the Getzen has a warmer, more intimate sound. There is no perfect equipment that covers all the genres possible. If you play in combos, brass quintet, or smaller type group, the more intimate sound of the Getzen is preferable. If you are using it for big band, a funk group, or brass band where you are playing outside, your main concern is projection over sound, otherwise you will be working harder than you need to, making your chops give out over a long gig. For these groups, you would want the ACB.
Thanks for your insight, Robert. On an unrelated note, I notice you share a surname with a historic maker of conical brass. Couturier brass are very interesting horns. I recently saw my first Couturier trombone (unfortunately a dud from a playability standpoint, but still an amazing piece of historical engineering).
You raise a good point, but I will to some extent counter it-first off, my flugel sound concept is rooted in small ensemble work, so you were correct in that the Getzen ended up being a better fit for the sound I wanted to produce. But in the case of a larger ensemble or funk group, I can always plug in a slightly shallower and harsher-sounding mouthpiece that aids in projection, whereas on the other side of the tonal spectrum I wouldn’t want to go any deeper than, preferably, my Denis Wick 2B, or else no matter which flugelhorn I use, my upper register will be flat and liveless. In that sense I think the Getzen would perform as well/better for me than the ACB not only on average but in just about any setting.
ABC!!
The acb is playing even sadder now that you let it go😢
@@DavidAndersoniiVI I mean… it’s not really any better than the Eterna though, is it?
@@SamuelPlaysBrass Sorry so late, but the acb had a more dramatic sound, much more. Super melancholic and very expressive. It spoke to me, I understood it's pain. The Getzen wasn't a slouch by anymeans though!
they sound the same
I understand the audio conditions are not ideal to tell the difference between the two, especially if you’re not listening via headphones, but they are still reasonably different in sound even if they are both flugelhorns.