The story of this sequel concept and why it was never finished is legitimately fascinating, but can we appreciate for a moment the hilarity of Tolkien basically predicting Game of Thrones and going “eh, fuck that noise”
Let's be honest with ourselves: GRRM isn't going to finish Game of Thrones so his story will end on a cliffhanger same as Tolkien's New Shadow story lol
That's part of it, but the driving factor seems to be that he didn't want to nail down his philosophy on evil. Or couldn't, which I completely empathise with
A century later, everyone forgot the atrocities that have happened then and their complacency keeps them from seeing that it is about to happen again. Sounds vaguely familiar
We smell the old evil, yet are sitting, paralyzed with terror and distracted by the poison of the dark tree, watching into our palantiri, doing nothing.
@@Daniel_Fo77While we, for absolutely no reason, condemn the people that recognise the threat and act against it. I'm talking about antifa. Fascism is a real problem, and it's fastly growing, i disliked antifa too before i realise this
The pointlessness is the point. It is how we as humans live. We scream and cry over injustices we hear about but do nothing about them. And if we can exploit something we are clever but if we are exploited the person in power is cruel and even if we do everything right in a hard time people in a good time simply can not understand us or even what it means to overcome. It is the cycle of humanity and it can be seen as bleak so easily. Perhaps tolkien preffered the light.
@@HadrianGuardiola I think Tolkien understood what you said and realized he was no longer writing Fantasy at that point. That’s just holding up a mirror to the world as it is. Do we need a story to reflect the world in which we live? Does it really do anything? He answered no. Frankly, the more I learn of his work, the more I agree with him.
@@kolbywilliams7234 i think you are right. We need high ideals because we often fail. Too much in our current world is so bent on tearing things down and we can at least try to mitigate what we can. I always see a lot of hope in his work and that to me is what makes it so special.
The reading of the first chapter that Jess gives us made me think of the adage, "Those who forget history are doomed to repeat it". The children who want to play 'orc' are unaware of the true horribleness of the War of the Ring because one who lives in a time of peace and plenty cannot know such horrors. Instead they see the orcs as powerful and free; they are not constrained to follow the rules; they can do what they want. The children don't destroy the fruit because they want people to starve or they want vengeance against the owner of the orchard. They simply want to act without constraint. Such behavior is all too common in the real world. I have witnessed this sort of destruction all throughout my life.
Yeah, and that shit is exactly what we're living through now. The metaphor is basically all the ultra right wing TH-cam essays. Trying to claim that Hitler wasn't as bad as history portrayed him as which is something talking with vomit on himself over.
@@jordanwhite352 Nothing is worse than far left marxists. They are obsessed about communism. The most sinister ideology ever. The number of people killed by the Communist governments amounts to more than 100 million.
@@jordanwhite352 AH is bad there's no doubt about it but the way he's sometimes portrayed or some see him as this ultimate evil, the climax of history, this demonic force when in reality he was a man and in a way, the fact that he's remembered as this ultimate threat is something he would've smiled at, so let's instead bring him back down to our level. The German film Downfall does this without praising him. Rip Bruno Ganz, easily the best portrayal of AH on screen.
The example of the unripe apples is a memory Saint Augustine recalls in _The Confessions,_ when he was a youth, about the misguided delight to commit mischief (sin) in a group; how despite Augustine having delicious pears at home, still he and his friends enjoyed stealing still unripe pears that didn't belong to them from another person's orchard.
Tolkien id not embrace a fully duallist approach: Evil is powerful but it is *not* equal to Good. As Eru makes clear to Melkor all the latter's mischief will in the end be woven into the theme and made to serve the purposes of Good.
@@MilesDashing That's kinda "If you kill a Nazi you're as bad as a Nazi" logic. It just doesn't play out. Humans killed Orcs because Orcs came to them for the express purpose of enslavement & genocide. Fighting off those Orcs is not an "atrocity" upon the Orcs, but justice in the face of Evil.
@@bradwilliams7198 I mean Treebeard is the embodiment of the fear of yavanna that what Borlas states is to be the truth of the world and that the trees would not have those who stand for them. Manwe in essence even tells her that what Borlas says is true. the ents mitigate unjust harm, but ultimately the needs of men are still set above the lives of trees in Arda.
The New Shadow is one of Tolkien’s biggest flex’s as a writer in my opinion. This complex and dark tale of conspiracy, mystery, and corruption, that he knows could’ve made a great read, that he then just chooses to set aside cause it’s not a tale he’s interested in telling. It’s like the perfect counter to GRRM’s questions of Aragorn’s tax policy
@@specialnewb9821 one thing is certain...whatever it would be...Aragorn's tax policy would be far more lenient towards the people than that of his distant numenorean ancestors :)...these were greedy tax collectors hahahah: "In the second stage, the days of Pride and Glory and grudging of the Ban, they begin to seek wealth rather than bliss. The desire to escape death produced a cult of the dead, and they lavished wealth and an on tombs and memorials. They now made settlements on the west-shores, but these became rather strongholds and ‘factories’ of lords seeking wealth, and the Númenóreans became tax-gatherers carrying off over the sea evermore and more goods in their great ships. The Númenóreans began the forging of arms and engines." -J.R.R. Tolkien, Letter No. 131 There is definitely a bit of information on the policies of early reign of Aragorn as king hehe, even if we have no hard facts about the taxes :)....well the Beornings had tolls so one can guess there would be such taxations in Gondor hahah. "‘lndeed,’ said Glóin, `if it were not for the Beornings, the passage from Dale to Rivendell would long ago have become impossible. They are valiant men and keep open the High Pass and the Ford of Carrock. But their tolls are high,’ he added with a shake of his head; `and like Beorn of old they are not over fond of dwarves. Still, they are trusty, and that is much in these days.’"
@@specialnewb9821the fuck does a tax policy have to do with a saga that ends with a bunch of wizards and hobbits sailing with some elves across the seas we’ll never see? What about Samwise and the way he raised his family? Why isn’t that talked about to the extent of a fucking tax policy? What about Merry and Pippin? What’re their stories after the story concluded? That’s the real question here, but whatever fuck it, let’s keep asking about Aragorn’s stupid fucking policies and taxation laws. Wish people were this enthusiastic with their local governments and their own taxation laws, but tsk, that’s too fuckin boring.
No, that isn't the point. The point is that A New Shadow is a terrible sequel to LotR, it tarnishes the point of the previous story. You're also awfully ignorant about the GRRM point on "Aragorn's tax policy". GRRM wasn't criticising Tolkien when he said that, he was talking about the sort of the things that interested him, that propelled him to write his own works. People are so keen to uphold Tolkien by ridiculing other writers, yet they don't even stop actually fucking read what they said. All in name of making pretentious comments online.
What I like about this is that, yeah things really would go awry sooner or later after the war was won. Hence my most profound geopolitical insight: you can’t save the world forever, you can only hope to keep the chaos at bay for a generation. After that it’s up to other people in another time.
And Tolkien knew it! "“I wish it need not have happened in my time," said Frodo. "So do I," said Gandalf, "and so do all who live to see such times. But that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given us.” (Fellowship of the Ring)
@@markusrobinson3858 And also: "It is not our part to master all the tides of the world, but to do what is in us for the succour of those years wherein we are set, uprooting the evil in the fields that we know, so that those who live after may have clean earth to till. What weather they shall have is not ours to rule." (The Return of the King)
I think something that Tolkien was able to realize with his writing and demonstrated with his characters, is that everyone, from the smallest hobbit to the mightiest of gods, can be corrupted. And with the ending of the LOTR and how optimistic it was, peace never lasts.
It is why I loved Aragorn's speech to the Rohirrim and the soldiers of Gondor at the Black Gate in The Return of the King film. Although evil will return to the world of Men, they will fight regardless.
@@theguybehindyou4762 There's a metaphysical difference between Eru and the Valar, between the monotheistic idea of God and the polytheistic concept of gods.
@@theguybehindyou4762 He loved the mythologies of ancient days, and wrote the Valar and his whole mythology in adherence to his Catholic faith. Lewis and Tolkien actually argued on that point quite a bit, on the idea of whether you can be Christian but love mythology. Tolkien believed you could do both, and I'm inclined to agree with him.
A quote from Neil Gaiman’s Sandman: “All Bette's stories have happy endings. That's because she knows where to stop.” Neil Gaiman, The Sandman, Vol. 1: Preludes & Nocturnes
The criminally overlooked channel Proper Bird has a video titled 'The Sandman: Morpheus, Why We Love Fictional Characters' that I think you might enjoy.
Tbf it was made it a really really good Rome Total War mod. You just need passionate fans who love the original works, who honestly just want to run off with the money and record themselves larping out the setting
I think Tolkien gives his answer in Letter 256. "I could have written a "thriller"....but it would have been just that. Not worth doing." Tolkien clearly loved the craft and art of story telling and wanted to tell the types of stories he loved to hear. If he had wanted to tell a "thriller" I'm sure it would have been a masterpiece of that form, but by his own words his heart wouldn't have been in it so it wouldn't have been worth doing. Still I would love to read a thriller by such a master story teller.
Idk, I think he could have woven his hobbit ideology in there once again, turning the uncomprehendingly depressing idea of evil creeping back no matter how many times it is defeated with, well hey, we got old toby and ale though.
It would have been inevitably a de-escalation in stakes compared to LoTR. It'd be like Captain Ahab surviving his encounter with the whale and going ashore to find his wife married again and his son is an alcoholic. Surely, yes, there are compelling things to say about relationships and alcoholism but it'd be no sequel to Moby Dick. A few kids pretending to be orcs and a weird cult in a peaceful and prosperous era likewise is no Sauron. The natural impulse at this stage would have been to just tell a different story in a new setting that centered around the themes one wish to explore. But Tolkien could not. He grew his tree and he couldn't bear to try and nurse another sapling.
Concerning the nature of evil, I've always liked these quotes from Merlin in Arthurian lore/films: Arthur, overly content with his reign, asks him where there is evil in the world and Merlin answers: 'Always where you never expect it. Always.' Merlin also delivered this reality check: ''There is no evil in sorcery only in the hearts of men.' I always imagined that Tolkien would mostly agree; now I'm not entirely sure anymore.
For anyone interested, the former quote is from the 1981 film _Excalibur_ by John Boorman, and the latter is from the television series _Merlin_ (S5E9).
Tolkien's own attempt at the arthurian legend, the Fall of Arthur didn't talk about Merlin but the Arthur's wars :)...one can wonder....Tolkien makes a surprisingly complex characterization of Guinevere in his poem :) so he certainly would approach the topic with meticulous manner he always had :).
There are many tools which can be used for good or evil. Was a sword good or evil? Is a gun good or evil? They are deadly. Is a torch good or evil? It can provide light or it can set fire to buildings. How about a shovel? That can be used for agriculture, or digging up graves, or as a weapon. The answer is they are neither: they are all inanimate objects, with no moral value. The person using them is the one who is good or evil, or some mix thereof, and that person decides what kind of acts those tools are used for.
@Gaawachan Different yet similar, hinting at the same idea is found in Shakespeare's Hamlet: “There is nothing good or bad, but thinking makes it so," the corollary to which is, "if there's such a thing as bad(or evil), it is a product of thought ie humans."
This chapter works on it's own as a kind of somber epilogue to the story. I think the dialogue between Borlas and Salon depicts how men of Tolkien's and his son's generation struggled to communicate the horrors of their youth to a new generation that grew in a time of peace and would happily play games of War and Nazis, and maybe even mock the rigidity of their parents. I don't think, however, that Borlas in his aging bitterness could have carried the story. A more compelling arc could have been built around Salon, who betrays Borlas and falls to evil, but eventually redeems himself (or not, Tolkien knew how to write tragedies). Tolkien always depicted evil from the outside, through the lense of good characters, so it would have been interesting to see that. His prose here is as beautiful as ever.
Or change to salon that cant kill borlas and borlas reached him and salons inner struggle being in that cult but also his questioning that borlas fostered in conflict. Also his philosophy could be incredibly interesting. If borlas managed to reach there to make salon really struggle and conflicted between like bad friends and the right thing and humanity, i think it could have worked well.
When I was a kid in the early 90's my friends and I would use a ditch near this house as a "trench" from which we'd blast away at imaginary attackers. The old man who lived there would always angrily chase us off, we never got it at the time
@@michaelmartin9022 most forms of play involve some kind of conflict that we don’t approve of. It is important to educate on the difference between play and reality, thus yelling at some kids to stop with no explanation is pretty pointless. Maybe the guy was just annoyed you were on his property.
As someone who’s read LOTR probably 25 times I still like the dark grimness of The Silmarillion tales. The long-form version of The Children of Hurin is one of my favourite stories of all time.
Yeah, part of what I like about the Silmarillion is that its a real opening for the imagination, because so much is unsaid, while LOTR is pretty much a self contained story, despite us not knowing much about hte battles around mirkwood, etc. I still haven't gotten to the Children of Hurin because I read the silmarillion and the unifinished tales so thats the 'turin' I"m used to, and don't want to find out differently. In college I wrote a paper in an independant studies class I called 'the tragic mythos in the silmarillion', which was comparing Turin to Tuor. I think that was teh most fun I had in school researching that.
@@mikearchibald744 I was the same. Avoided it for ages, but it is definitely worth it. It feels like a proper novel but doesn't take away from or contradict the silm. It just has more detail and dialogue, more character development etc. For me it sat somewhere between lotr and the silm in style. Far more in depth than silm but unlike lotr it moves at a breakneck pace. We get a book that is very dark and upfront about it's darker parts, unlike the way things can be hinted at in lort, and there's more female characters. It's very impactful. The death of Beleg is powerful!
@@djohnston6856 I wonder how much is 'edited' and how much is him 'filling in'. But yeah, I should get down to it. I've heard Turin comes across as even more unlikeable in the full book, but I've also heard he has more criticisms of elves in it. He is shown more sympathetically in the silmarillion because there is less detail. Its kind of like 'the more I hear of Turin the less I like him' but of course not all literature is supposed to be likeable people.
Admittedly, G.K. Chesterton made an allusion to it also in Orthodoxy. That book was published in 1908, and I little doubt that Tolkien was unfamiliar with the work.
@blackosprey2219 This story does look way more theological than Tolkien allowed himself to be in his published work. I wonder if we'd get a sermon about how oaths are bad in a later chapter.
A part of me wished that Tolkien had exploded more on the LoTR sequel...but a larger part of me also believes that having it an unfinished mystery and the story that never was complete even more fascinating. It even stopped on a chilling note. The call of Herumour, people missing, The mystery meeting in the night, The smell of old evil returning. Its nice just to keep the idea of the old evil never being defeated as open to interpretation depending on the reader. If you wish for it to be a happily ever after LoTR then sure. If you'd rather focus more on what "happens next" and "whats the new evil" then you can as well with the new shadow and let your mind fly with theories.
The criminally overlooked channel Proper Bird has a video titled 'The Sandman: Morpheus, Why We Love Fictional Characters' that I think you might enjoy.
There's a very similar quote about evil being impossible to eradicate and "ever and anon" continuing to grow anew at the very end of Quenta Silmarillion. Of course, at the time Tolkien was working on The New Shadow, nobody else would have read that passage.
Gandalf mentioned something similar in Return of the King. "Evil itself, of which Sauron is but a servant or emissary" would always exist but it was their duty to uproot what evil they could in their time so that future generations have clean earth to till, but it is not their right to dictate what weather those future generations will have.
People (generally) honour their war veterans, and those who serve in the armed forces in peacetime. But those in the military enable evil, they are never fighting against evil. In both world wars, Christian men on both sides slaughtered each other, in wars organised by other men (who served Satan) primarily to cause death and destruction. All of the politicans on both sides were owned by Satan. The same is true today, millions of innocents killed in Iraq/Afghanistan/Libya/Yemen...the list stretches back to Vietnam/Korea etc. To resist evil we MUST follow Jesus and God, who told us not to murder, not to live by the sword, to love our neighbours. And now more recently, the evil within all governments/UN/WEF/WHO has resulted in tens (maybe hundreds) of millions of deaths due to toxic mrna-altering gene editing pharma/sorcery. The evil ones are literally attempting a genocide of mankind. Those of us with fate watch it happening, and we have faith and hope that God will send out some light to the nations soon, and that Satan and his minions are ejected from heaven (firstly), and then from the earth, all as prophesied. To date, God has been passive, if He doesn't act soon, it will be too late. 2malachi.com check the proclamation for details of the mark of the beast.
Your level of research and depth of knowledge is truly impressive. As someone who has just recently read Tolkien for the first time, your videos offer a real enhancement to my appreciation of these works.
That's so kind! Luckily, a lot of this material is very easy to learn. I've only been seriously studying Tolkien for a year or two now, but it's a joy to share with people.
I wish Tolkien could have lived as long as Elros. There was so much more in his head that we will never know. So thankful for Christopher to share these fragments and thoughts. I think you are correct in thinking the New Shadow was abandoned due to challenges he was having with reconciling the nature and origins of evil. I would have loved a Tolkien “thriller” but maybe not a 4th age one.
I am attempting to tackle this story, but from the genre of mystery rather than a straight up thriller, with a Hobbit solving the mystery with aid from people all over Middle-Earth, including the king of South Harad.
i find the new shadow really creepy and sinister, it really disturbs me more than anything else in the legendarium. i think it’s because it’s so depressing and un-tolkien like; yes, the prose and philosophy are similar but it really feels like a wizard of oz, behind the curtain moment. its from the perspective of not quite a lower lower class man but it’s not a lord or a king, it’s a POV of a normal gondorian. it’s cynical, it’s philosophy is more thoughtful and existential, and something about inevitability of evil returning so quickly is unsettling after a series such as lotr. and i’m not mad at it, i understand why he didn’t finish it but i would have really loved to see a finished version. he’s a very good thriller writer. the new shadow truly feels like it’s a found account à la the red book or blair witch project lol, and it ending before the narrator can update the audience on what happened that night only adds to the mystery and suspense. so i’m also not mad at it ending the way it did because honestly, it only adds to it.
The New Shadow never getting made does really bring the perceptive that perhaps enough is enough. Look at current fiction such as Marvel and Star Wars. They each reached a climax in their stories where the big bad was defeated. And yet the stories go on with new evil rising to take its place, or being reborn. It could make revisiting those stories feel pointless. I wonder if people would have felt the same about Lord of the Rings if the New Shadow had been fully written and published. Even if the New Shadow was perfectly written it would have altered the Lord of the Rings. Just as the Lord of the Rings changed how people viewed the Hobbit. Yes new evil would rise after the events of Lord of the Rings, but the story left on a happy moment when good had defeated evil. Perhaps it is better that we only have those moments to linger on than whatever would happen a hundred more years later.
I think it is also that the sequel was too close to the real, modern world which Tolkien wanted to escape from in his work. It kind of therefore defeated the point
Your reference to Marvel and Star Wars and having to come up with a new evil in order to continue the stories, made me think of Stargate SG-1. The show should have ended with Season 8. It had a perfect ending; no need to dream up some entirely new atrocity to fight.
To quote The Sandman: “All Bette's stories have happy endings. That's because she knows where to stop. She's realized the real problem with stories-if you keep them going long enough, they always end in death.”
Ever since I read this as a younger teen, I was CONVINCED this was going to be a cult trying to bring Morgoth back through the Door of Night from the Void, and I still am to this day. Kinda wish he had written it! It seemed like a setup for a grim beginning to a tale that would end more hopefully, which in our grim times would've been a welcome text to turn to for Tolkien's idea of a path out of the worst threat of darkness to hard won victory.
It would be a hard sell to make Gondor turn into a worse threat of darkness than LOTR showcased without undermining one of Tolkien's messages. Tolkien understood that evil bides its time and reaches out its tendrils silently and where it is least likely to be revealed. To have Gondor even theoretically capable of bringing Morgoth back with no more than a cult in Gondor would be to say that Evil has the same sort of power that Good has. To perform miracles towards its goals. I adore the sort of optimism you hope for out of this book, only is the Lord of the Rings not that book about the path out of the worst threat of darkness?
I don't think there would be any real risk of Morgoth returning from the void, because the greater part of him by far still remains in Arda. Morgoth's corruption of the fabric of the world is how Sauron could make the One Ring, with the corruption being stronger in the substance of gold. My thought was that the new shadow was the realisation that there is no escape from the old corruption. A cake baked with a tiny amount of sewage is forever spoiled. The noble purity of ages past is forever gone, and all men become orcs in time, are born to it. I wouldn't have wanted to write about something so depressing either.
I've heard of the tale and why Tolkien never proceeded with it, given the post war strugle and rebuilding England was going though at the time. Add to that the looming threat of the Nuclear war, and a rise of a new threat in our own east; It makes me glad he did not continue with it.
I didn't even think about the connection to the Soviet Union, or hell, maybe even British authoritarianism/anti-communism during the Cold War. The new shadow is beginning from *within* Gondor, is it not?
For some while after Saelon had gone Borlas stood still, covering his eyes and resting his brow against the cool bark of a tree beside the path. As he stood he searched back in his mind to discover how this strange and alarming conversation had begun. What he would do after nightfall he did not yet consider. He had not been in good spirits since the spring, though well enough in body for his age, which burdened him less than his loneliness.(14) Since his son, Berelach,(15) had gone away again in April - he was in the Ships, and now lived mostly near Pelargir where his duty was - Saelon had been most attentive, whenever he was at home. He went much about the lands of late. Borlas was not sure of his business, though he understood that, among other interests, he dealt in timber. He brought news from all over the kingdom to his old friend. Or to his friend's old father; for Berelach had been his constant companion at one time, though they seemed seldom to meet nowadays. 'Yes, that was it,' Borlas said to himself. 'I spoke to Saelon of Pelargir, quoting Berelach. There has been some small disquiet down at the Ethir: a few shipmen have disappeared, and also a small vessel of the Fleet. Nothing much, according to Berelach. '"Peace makes things slack," he said, I remember, in the voice of an under-officer. "Well, they went off on some ploy of their own, I suppose - friends in one of the western havens, perhaps - without leave and without a pilot, and they were drowned. It serves them right. We get too few real sailors these days. Fish are more profitable. But at least all know that the west coasts are not safe for the unskilled." 'That was all. But I spoke of it to Saelon, and asked if he had heard anything of it away south. "Yes," he said, "I did. Few were satisfied with the official view. The men were not unskilled; they were sons of fishermen. And there have been no storms off the coasts for a long time.> As he heard Saelon say this, suddenly Borlas had remembered the other rumours, the rumours that Othrondir (16) had spoken of. It was he who had used the word 'canker'. And then half to himself Borlas had spoken aloud about the Dark Tree. He uncovered his eyes and fondled the shapely trunk of the tree that he had leaned on, looking up at its shadowy leaves against the clear fading sky. A star glinted through the branches. Softly he spoke again, as if to the tree. 'Well, what is to be done now? Clearly Saelon is in it. But is it clear? There was the sound of mockery in his words, and scorn of the ordered life of Men. He would not answer a straight question. The black clothes! And yet - why invite me to go with him? Not to convert old Borlas! Useless. Useless to try: no one would hope to win over a man who remembered the Evil of old, however far off. Useless if one succeeded: old Borlas is of no use any longer as a tool for any hand. Saelon might be trying to play the spy, seeking to find out what lies behind the whispers. Black might be a disguise, or an aid to stealth by night. But again, what could I do to help on any secret or dangerous errand? I should be better out of the way.' With that a cold thought touched Borlas's heart. Put out of the way - was that it? He was to be lured to some place where he could disappear, like the Shipmen? The invitation to go with Saelon had been given only after he had been startled into revealing that he knew of the whispers - had even heard the name. And he had declared his hostility. This thought decided Borlas, and he knew that he was resolved now to stand robed in black at the gate in the first dark of night. He was challenged, and he would accept. He smote his palm against the tree. 'I am not a dotard yet, Neldor,' he said; 'but death is not so far off that I shall lose many good years, if I lose the throw.' He straightened his back and lifted his head, and walked away up the path, slowly but steadily. The thought crossed his mind even as he stepped over the threshold: 'Perhaps I have been preserved so long for this purpose: that one should still live, hale in mind, who remembers what went before the Great Peace. Scent has a long memory. I think I could still smell the old Evil, and know it for what it is.' The door under the porch was open; but the house behind was darkling. There seemed none of the accustomed sounds of evening, only a soft silence, a dead silence. He entered, wondering a little. He called, but there was no answer. He halted in the narrow passage that ran through the house, and it seemed that he was wrapped in a blackness: not a glimmer of twilight of the world outside remained there. Suddenly he smelt it, or so it seemed, though it came as it were from within outwards to the sense: he smelt the old Evil and knew it for what it was. Here, both in A and B, The New Shadow ends, and it will never be known what Borlas found in his dark and silent house, nor what part Saelon was playing and what his intentions were. ..." One thing is certain....that's a HELL of a cliffhanger :) hehehe.....now Tolkien writing a horror type story or thrillers definitely would be something fascinating ;).
Honestly, if we’re to take Tolkien’s work as intended, it’s meant to be a mythology that leads into our world. I’d say the optimism of LotR’s ending was ruined a long, long time ago
Whenever hear I dialogue between Borlas and Seilon, I wonder "man do we need this more than ever" I understand that J.R.R. Tolkien had a good reason not to write it primarily being it would undercut the catharsis of the Lord of the rings and its happy ending, but I can't help but feel a little robbed of a wonderful story, and not because it would've been a thriller, or grim, or featuring spectacular plot, but because it's honest and surreal portrayal of the corruptible nature of men.
In the fall of numenor, I don't remember which elf spoke to them about the shadow that lies in the hearts of men, and that how elves don't clearly understand what does Shadow is. That's probably what Tolkien was trying to delve into with the new shadow. 🧐
As Tolkien put it, there are two evils: there is the Big Evil, the cosmic threat which looms over us but was ultimately defeated and crushed by Jesus Christ; then there are the Little Evils, the darkness that sapience allows, and must be combatted everyday by good men lest it grow like a ravenous plague of weeds and rot. By the blood of Jesus there is life after death, but this world will be inherited by those that come after us, so let us do our part to make the experiences in that journey to God as good as can be.
I originally learned about "The New Shadow" maybe...15? years ago. But even before that, I was interested in sequel stories to LOTR just because of all the loose threads that had been left in Middle-earth. Then, when I finally learned about "The Peoples of Middle-earth", and "The New Shadow" itself, it struck me more like something from the start of a Lovecraft story. While I would _love_ to have gotten another Middle-earth story from the master himself, I've resigned myself to knowing that if I ever want to experience it, I'll just have to try and write it myself. And in a way, that's another gift of Tolkien to fantasy literature - dangling that carrot of a story to inspire future writers. Edit: Oh, and - now officially subscribed.
Darkness in Tolkien's writing always felt blacker, deeper, and more sinister than in just about any other work that I've read. I always thought of the Silmarillion as basically a "World History" textbook for Arda, and despite its 'dryness', I came away with a visceral understanding of just how much worse Morgoth actually was than Sauron. The spirit quails a bit at just how suffocating the depths of The New Shadow could actually have been, but morbid curiosity continues to wonder...
It also can be noted that sometimes Darkness as metaphysical and metaphoric concept of evil, or Dark Power and ordinary darkness as absence of light can be differentiated, 'darkness' can be like some sort of substance of it's own or power directly tangible force not merely lack of light...evil beings can wrap themselves in shadow, "The Light failed; but the Darkness that followed was more than loss of light. In that hour was made a Darkness that seemed not lack but a thing with being of its own: for it was indeed made by malice out of Light, and it had power to pierce the eye, and to enter heart and mind, and strangle the very will." The Silmarillion .... "Drawing a deep breath they [Frodo and Sam] passed inside [Shelob's Lair]... They walked as it were in a black vapour wrought of veritable darkness itself that, as it was breathed, brought blindness not only to the eyes but to the mind, so that even the memory of colours and of forms and of any light faded out of thought. Night always had been, and always would be, and night was all. ..." Lord of the Rings It's also seems to be the power the Dark Lords wield to some extent, Sauron was able to create these 'veils of shadow' clouds of darkness that appears almost a tangible power or substance: "Thence, turning and encircling all its wide girth from south to north, it climbed at last, high in the upper cone, but still far from the reeking summit, to a dark entrance that gazed back east straight to the Window of the Eye in Sauron’s shadow-mantled fortress. Often blocked or destroyed by the tumults of the Mountain’s furnaces, always that road was repaired and cleaned again by the labours of countless orcs. …Far off the shadows of Sauron hung; but torn by some gust of wind out of the world, or else moved by some great disquiet within, the mantling clouds swirled, and for a moment drew aside; and then he saw, rising black, blacker and darker than the vast shades amid which it stood, the cruel pinnacles and iron crown of the topmost tower of Barad-dûr. One moment only it stared out, but as from some great window immeasurably high there stabbed northward a flame of red, the flicker of a piercing Eye; and then the shadows were furled again and the terrible vision was removed." ... "Behind [Mount Doom] there hung a vast shadow, ominous as a thunder-cloud, the veils of Barad-dûr that was reared far away upon a long spur of the Ashen Mountains thrust down from the North.... [All the Dark Power's] great stronghold, gate on gate, and tower on tower, was wrapped in a brooding gloom." ... "But far worse than all such perils was the ever-approaching threat that beat upon them as they went: the dreadful menace of the Power that waited, brooding in deep thought and sleepless malice behind the dark veil about its Throne. Nearer and nearer it drew, looming blacker, like the oncoming of a wall of night at the last end of the world." ... "Such daylight as followed was dim; for here as the Mountain drew near the air was ever mirky, while out from the Dark Tower there crept the veils of Shadow that Sauron wove about himself." Even Dol Guldur seems to have had this: "Then he looked eastward and saw all the land of Lórien running down to the pale gleam of Anduin, the Great River. He lifted his eyes across the river and all the light went out, and he was back again in the world he knew. Beyond the river the land appeared flat and empty, formless and vague, until far away it rose again like a wall, dark and drear. The sun that lay on Lothlórien had no power to enlighten the shadow of that distant height. 'There lies the fastness of Southern Mirkwood,' said Haldir. 'It is clad in a forest of dark fir, where the trees strive one against another and their branches rot and wither. In the midst upon a stony height stands Dol Guldur, where long the hidden Enemy had his dwelling. We fear that now it is inhabited again, and with power sevenfold. A black cloud lies often over it of late." ... "For when at last the host drew near to Dol Guldur, Eorl turned away westward for fear of the dark shadow and cloud that flowed out from it, and then he rode on within sight of Anduin. "/"As they drew nearer they saw that the white mist was driving back the glooms of Dol Guldur, and soon they passed into it, riding slowly at first and warily; but under its canopy all things were lit with a clear and shadowless light, while to left and right they were guarded as it were by white walls of secrecy." Even Morgoth had such power it seems....Balrogs were also able to wrap themselves in shadow! "Thus they brought word to him of well nigh all that passed in Arda; yet some things were hidden even from the eyes of Manwë and the servants of Manwë, for where Melkor sat in his dark thought impenetrable shadows lay. " ... "And with regard to the Enemy, Melkor, in particular, he [Manwë] could not penetrate by distant mindsight his thought and purposes, since Melkor remained in a fixed and powerful will to withhold his mind: which physically expressed took shape in the darkness and shadows that surrounded him."
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@@fantasywind3923the Dark Side clouds everything. I apologize
Well Morgoth would be the beginner of the 'dark side' hehe...and with the texts of Tolkien at possible existence of other worlds out there;) ;) "they [the elves] hold that all Creation of any sort must be in Eä, proceeding from Eru in the same way, and therefore being of the same Order. They do not believe in contemporaneous non-contiguous worlds except as an amusing fantasy of the mind. They are (say they) either altogether unknowable, even as to whether they are or are not, or else if there are any intersections (however rare) they are only provinces of one Eä" ... "After the Valar, who before were the Ainur of the Great Song, entered into Ea, those who were noblest among them and understood most of the mind of Iluvatar sought amid the immeasurable regions of the Beginning for that place where they should establish the Kingdom of Arda in time to come. And when they had chosen that point and region where it should be, they began labours that were needed. Others there were, countless to our thought though known each and numbered in the mind of Iluvatar, whose labour lay elsewhere and in other regions and histories of the Great Tale, amid stars remote and worlds beyond the reach of the furthest thought. But of these others we know nothing and cannot know, though the Valar of Arda, maybe, remember them all." ... "We cannot say that there ‘must’ be elsewhere in Ea other solar systems ‘like’ Arda, still less that, if there are, they or any one of them must contain a parallel to Imbar. We cannot even say that these things are mathematically very ‘ likely’. But even if the presence elsewhere in Ea of biological ‘life’ was demonstrable, it would not invalidate the Elvish view that Arda (at least while it endures) is the dramatic centre. The demonstration that there existed elsewhere Incarnates, parallel to the Children of Eru, would of course modify the picture, though not wholly invalidate it. The Elvish answer would probably be: ‘Well, there is another Tale. It is not our Tale. Eru can no doubt bring to pass more than one. Not everything is adumbrated in the “Ainulindale”; or the “Ainulindale” may have a wider reference than we knew: other dramas, like in kind if different in process and result, may have gone on in Ea, or may yet go on.’" But jokes aside....evil is naturally associated with the dark, darkness has always been a terror for humans, filled with fear of unknown and so such themes are universal :).
I just finished the Return of the King and Saruman actually points outs and gloats that the Elven Rings are doomed to fail now that the One Ring is gone. I didn't remember that, but it makes sense that Saruman would know this and be happy about the destruction of so much beauty and goodness.
And you gotta give Frodo credit for sparing him even after he tried to shank him, and how it utterly robbed Saruman of even the pathetic victory of dying to sully the conscience of the Shire.
At the Council of Elrond Gandalf recounts his conversation with Saruman, and he mentions that Saruman has managed to create his own Ring of Power. Tolkien drops this from the story and it's never mentioned again, but it *is* canon that Saruman did it, so . . . I think that means that Saruman isn't permanently dead as long as his own Ring of Power still exists. I think I just figured out who Herumor is. And where is this Ring of Power of Saruman's? Where else but in Saruman's last known mortal abode: the Shire. And that's how you get Hobbits involved in the story.
I only read that chapter a few days ago, and have read the book many times, and I have no recollection of that ever being said. Are you sure that you are not misremembering what was said in the scene? The closest thing that was said was that Saruman only desired such knowledge. Not that he actually had it
@@crimsonthumos3905 'But I rode to the foot of Orthanc, and came to the stair of Saruman; and there he met me and led me up to his high chamber. He wore a ring on his finger.' . . . ' "For I am Saruman the Wise, Saruman Ring-maker, Saruman of Many Colours!" '
I thought that Herumor was just what Aragorn became when Eru and the Iluvatar made him the monster he became after committing countless acts of genocide against the orcish people of Middle Earth. These acts conveniently forgotten by the people of Gondor because propaganda is an effective tool, Especially when combined with the traumatic memories of the time. The moral rules of middle earth continue even as the heroes of yesterday become the monsters of today.
@@Dragonshade64 Can't tell if this is a joke/parody comment. But it genuinely concerns me that there are people out there who believe this is a more just and righteous moral lens than what is presented in the Lord of the Rings. Absolutely diabolical, in the literal sense of the word.
@astrovarius543 Personally, I like the ending to not involve killing all the orcs because it wouldn't work for multiple reasons. The harsh moral framework that Aragorn is fully aware of being one of them. I also don't care for dark fantasy either, but can't think of what Herumor would be otherwise. I don't know how common the opinion of my previous post is though. I'm mostly here from the Magic: the Gathering side. Honestly, a more interesting sequel for Lotor would be to have a story from the perspective of the orcs as they try to rebuild their lives and find an identity as a culture without the constant tyranny of a dark lord or for the semi divine "good" Elves constantly trying to destroy them.
The bit about the youths despoiling his orchard remiinds me a of an English short story we read in high school called "the Destructors" in which a gang of boys growing up in the post-blitz London set about methodically destroyed the home of a wealthy businessman that miraculously survived the bombing just out sheer resentment.
I like to think that it could be unofficially considered a canon stand alone short story where the angst of evil endures in our children education, late night debates and dark alleys. Very modern
This is a fascinating exploration, Jess. I had heard of the sequel tale but never really thought much about why he didn't choose to complete it. 🤔 (Also, your hair and makeup are en pointe. You look fab! 🖤)
This is what I think is the fundamental problem with the Star Wars sequels. Return of the Jedi had a happily ever after ending where everything was set right. The new sequels undid all of it, deconstructing its heroes, to keep the story going. I can imagine if Tolkien went through with his sequel it would have soured his earlier works.
It can be done. Madoka Magica (an anime show) had a happy ending that said everything the author wanted to say... and then it got a sequel that "undid" that happy ending, even arguing against its very tenets and philosophies. And that sequel is a masterpiece, that sparks a dialogue between two opposing views: Thesis, Antithesis. The existence of Rebellion makes the original Madoka Magica better, as it openly attacks the foundations of the first story and allows the audience to determine whether those foundations still stand. (Rebellion is getting a sequel next year, which I'm trusting will bridge the gap between the two opposing philosophies of the current duology.) Great writers who understand the philosophy of their works can do this, and I think Tolkien absolutely understood his own philosophies.
A little note on the dating of The New Shadow - while Tolkien's first idea was to start the story "about 100 years after the Downfall" [of Sauron], he later changed the chronology to the year 220 FA. So well into the reign of Eldarion - I seem to remember it would be around the time Eldarion's reign ended, though don't quote me on that.
You're correct about the timeline adjustment. And to me it made a bit more sense as to why the Gondorians were so complacent by the time of The New Shadow. By then Men had lived in a time of extended peace with rulers that also lived exceedingly long lives because of their remnant Dúnedain and Elven blood. It's almost reminiscent of how Queen Victoria reigned for so long that people so shocked at her death because she had been in power the better part of the century with so much of the population having never known life without her. Similarly, without the shifts caused by regular changes in politics and monarchs in Gondor everything outwardly looks well but easy for a slow creep of evil to fester underneath.
I've always pondered The New Shadow, completed. My theory is that Tolkien was healing and reconciling the mess that war made of him, and found peace instead of going down a goblin hole . He knew there is more to his universe, but could not shape what he wanted with its fire. Thats why The Lord of the Rings is so big, he smelted it down from weird ores...
0:33 the Lord of the Rings was split in 3 books because there was still paper rationing in the United Kingdom in 1954, not because a big book would be heavy. 9:13 when you said "children are playing orcs without realizing the true atrocities that these creatures committed", I could not help to think of the many games where we could play on the Nazi side, glossing over the atrocities of the regime and reducing World War 2 to a simple military conflict. I do not know why, it suddenly felt more disturbing that the Nazi was a playable team in many games. 24:01 if nothing else, the Tolkien did not really see the Silmarillion as a novel, but as a collection of old texts written by many authors during the course of the First Age. Ironically, the current format is exactly that: a collection of stories, some with a distant narrator, others with a narrator inside the heads of the characters; some written in the youth of Tolkien, others near the end of his life. 25:46 I am guessing that it is not the lack of Hobbit that could be a problem with the sequel, but the mundane of the story. The first 3 Ages ended with the defeat of an angelic being. In the Fourth Age, who would be the antagonist? A man? a clever orc? That feels anticlimactic. You know, there are countless books and movies with a sequel that nobody wanted and nobody liked. I am guessing Tolkien did not want to write one of those inferior sequels. He realized he did not have a story worthy to be told and he stopped.
To your last two points, I agree with you. Once you have defeated an angelic being, what really can be a bigger threat or what can make the sequel story as interesting as the original story? I think that is the problem Marvel is having after the defeat of Thanos. Finding a villain as compelling as Thanos has been difficult. The conclusion Marvel had with the Infinity Stones saga was great. What can you do after that? In my opinion, it’s the same with Star Wars … once you defeated the Emperor, what really can come after him that is an interesting story? No one really measured up to the Emperor and Darth Vader after their defeat. I am not saying it is impossible, but it is extremely difficult, again in my opinion.
Most of the time, it is the german that is the playable team, not the Nazi, i doubt many Games let you play as some Deathshead SS Officer or Himmler, Goering and the Clique
I wonder if for Tolkien, "playing orcs" was equivalent to children pretending to be nazi officers... Personally I think the reason Tolkien gave up on the story was due to his tendency to go a mile deep and a mile wide into his stories. In the LOTR books, the incredible interest and inspiration that raptured him into that universe carried him through the experience, and now that he knows what to expect, he wasn't ready to explore that all over again. The prospect alone seemed exhausting. Edit: now that I finished the video, I kinda like your answer better lol, but do think mine still, at least partly, applies.
Your videos are so calming and relaxing. Along with rain sounds playing in the background on my phone your videos help me calm down when having panic attacks. I've watched through all your videos in the last three days and I love them all! I can't wait to see more as you post them
The dog cut me short...Dunsany with his short entertaining stories who also lived through the early 20th century but no-one has given him the level of attention and consideration you show in LOTR works. Your scripting is wonderfully informative. (An ancient male in Ireland)
Dunsany is, along with William Blake, the true origin point for all the invented mythologies in fantasy fiction. It's a real pity that he isn't more well known in the present day. But then, few of the early fantasy writers get their due these days.
27:20 Which is why sams monologue at the end of the two towers film works so well (also it is ofc derived from the bit where he wonders if tales of him and frodo would be told)
i think he was looking at some of what was happening in the real world and wanted to put it into fiction. which for him, meant he was going to use allegory, something he criticized Dune for having. while he was clearly right to be worried, i can see why he wouldnt have done that
This has become my favorite video of all year and I still have 10 more months! Seriously, the thoughtful comparisons between Boethian and Manichaeism lit my brain up like an Xmas tree. The value and reason for the hobbits was revelatory and you ended the video on such a positive note by tying it all back to Tolkien's story structure was sublime. I am going through all your videos now, but this is the one that will put you on the map!
I used to think the new shadow would have been about Morgoth's inevitable return, as stated in the Silmarillion, but it seems too close in time somehow. I think it is loosely said that his return was not to be until many ages after saurons defeat. I would have loved to read an "interim" story like the return of the shadow as it's stated many times that Morgoth's evil would bear dark fruit many times until his return and final defeat. And somehow that feels like the "true" ending to Tolkiens works, a Ragnarök of sorts which would truelly set everything right at the end. With that in mind, a story like the return of the shadow is not only reasonable, it is inevitable as far as Morgoth's influence is written. I think it could have ended happily after all, however even that would not have set everything right, since only after the destruction of the world would evil finally have been defeated. When seen like that, between silmarillion and the return of the shadow, lord of the rings was naught but a short flash of light in the darkness, and that might really have been too depressing to be worth writing, even though I would have loved to read it. Not sure my long rant made any sense, but it is interesting to think about Tolkiens works. Great video as always!
My general take on the nature of Evil in Tolkien’s Middle Earth is that it all germinates from the song of Morgoth before the creation of Arda. His jealousy and desire for power over creation is behind all evil forces within Middle Earth. Sauron, Morgoth’s lieutenant and disciple, adopted this same desire to control all that he could and destroy all that he could not control. It is Sauron’s will, a continued ringing of Morgoth’s song, that is contained and projected by The One Ring. Those that hear The Ring are bent towards evil by the temptation of power. Evil in Middle Earth, at its very core, is to seek to have dominion over all things.
Gandalf's staff that was destroyed was years later found in a chest hidden in a room at the Prancing Pony by a young girl who would become the new most powerful wizard ever. "Where did you get that?" Legolas asks her. "A good question, for another time" she answers.
I have heard of it before but you have the most detailed discussion of it that I have seen. I would have loved if Prof. Tolkien had written complete books on the Second Age. As always, your videos are informative, interesting, and entertaining. I look forward to them! Thank you!
Fascinating and the first I'm hearing of it. I think you nailed why exactly this wasn't needed though- undoing, or even just underlining what was written in the Silmarillion about Evil always rising again is an interesting idea to explore... but better that it was left for others to explore it.
It must have been so hard, I am trying to write a d&d adventure set in middle earth for my friends to play and I tried to set it in the Forth Age, but without the Elves, Dwarves and Hobbits and magic it just felt so empty that I went back to the Third age, strangely I have always felt very drawn to the Silmerillion but my greatest love is creation myths and the mystery of death in Bronze Age cultures so it has always felt relatable, I can understand why he never wrote the sequel but I long to read it!
Gotta love that syllogism of sorts with the pretext of the tree of evil, and then the character representing the possibility of evil entering speaking of what trees consider to be evil. I.E. What does evil consider evil? In 13 pages alone I'm inspired.
Really great take. Thanks for deconstructing! Personally, I think Tolkein decided it’s not a story worth telling because it’s a horribly depressing truth. All good times must pass, and evil inevitably rises again. It reminds me of a quote by G. Michael Hopf: “Hard times create strong men, strong men create good times, good times create weak men, and weak men create hard times”
Another excellent video. I enjoyed it. The Manichean vs Catholic view of good and evil is a little more complex. Yes, in Catholic thought, evil is a sort of lack, but it is “real” in the sense of ontological. It is a corruption of the good or a disorder of the will. It is therefore a defect in being rather than a separate principle of being. Being itself is good. Intellect and will are good, but they can be disordered: not directed towards their proper ends. That’s a “real,” metaphysical defect that is quite concrete. An easy example would he the fall of an angel. It remains the same kind of thing (has the same essence, which is intrinsically good), but has devolved into a disordered version that fails to attain the telos/end for which it was made. It is a lack in that sense: the imperfection of a thing rather than a separate kind of thing.
I'm so happy that i found this channel. I love the way you research and cover the lore with your own thoughts. I don't always comment, but I do appreciate you. Thank you.
If anyone is interested in a Tolkien adjacent book that looks at many of these themes I’d recommend The C.S Lewis space trilogy. In particular the third novel “That Hideous Strength” (which also references both Numeanor and Middle earth before Tolkien published TLOTR)
@@cursethemountain yeah it wasn’t particularly uncommon for Tolkien to have some pretty scathing opinions on many of Lewis’s books Lol. Though it does seem (according to the preface anyways) he at least was fond of the first one.
I had heard of "The New Shadow" before, but I'm not sure I ever want to see someone else finish it. Christopher seemed to have been a good enough steward of what should and what should not be published after his father passed, but with Christopher's passing, I think it's time for new publications to stop.
I think it says so much about Tolkien when you see what he attempted to write in earnest and what he abandoned quickly. When a fan asked him if there was more Black Speech language material he said that he did not attempt to make more because it was dark and sinister and made him uneasy. Its very evident that he was a man who believed he should inject more good than bad into the world. He also had such a strong emotional connection to his writing that it seems like hes channeling some strange energy that affects him deeply.
This reminds me of Christopher Lee's relationship with the occult; "I must caution those curious not to pursue the occult; for in it you will only lose your mind"
Never heard of this. Frankly what I think the story needs is a hobbit counterpart to Faramir's nephew. Maybe Samwise's kids and grandkids are the new deuteragonists, with Samwise himself being the new elder figure. An Orc-ish hobbit is bringing a new invention into the Shire, unlike any windmill or watermill before-- a hydroelectric (or hydromagic I suppose) dam. Ultimately the story is resolved with the invention of a fishladder (i.e. the Ballard Locks) thus proving that enough orc-ism can solve orc-ishness with the right attutude. Much mention is made of sustainable lumber practices as well as further bemoaning of deforestation.
Bravo, Jess! Your perception about the indispensability of the hobbits really shifted my understanding. I recall that someone--Gandalf?--early on comments something to the effect of the least being the most important. Indeed, the triumph over Sauron is accomplished, in the end, not by force of arms or wizardry, but by purity of heart. To your question, I wouldn't want to read a sequel. I take it as established that all and sundry in the books believe evil will always return and must be combated each time in an indefinite cycle. A sequel would be retelling the story of a new evil and the fight against it, which, however well executed, would just be another verse of the same song. "Not worth the trouble," as you said.
When she started talking about Samwise Gamgee it made me remember all the things he did throughout the Lord of the Rings and he honestly reminds of a Marine, just an average person who was put into this situation to protect his home and no matter what situation he was in he would spite it and get through it and whenever his friends were in danger he would fight like a man possessed to make sure the threat was destroyed like when he killed the Big Spider and fought those Orcs to save Frodo, he was probably really scared but all he cared about was saving his friend. Edit: word
For a book fragment that's mostly philosophical argument it's a really compelling setup for a thriller and highlights that for the dry reputation he's garnered from Christopher publishing every stray scrap, JRR's polished books are real page turners. I agree that it would have damaged LotR's ending in retrospect, but as a standalone text damn if I don't want to know what happens next.
My man! Also, hearing this i feel like it's fertile ground for some writer to make a different kind of Middle-Earth story that properly comments on the nihilism of our time; yknow, a GOOD writer
I’d heard of the New Shadow and have known about it and investigated it for about 7 or 8 years now and (don’t laugh, I know this is silly) had even taken a shot at writing a rough outline for the continuation of it and beyond, if only for my own entertainment. Watching this video actually helped quite a lot in understanding concepts of the original storyline, which helps me fill in the plot a bit more.
Gawd, I love watching you speak. Your eyes sparkle and your voice resonates with the obvious delight you have with the topics. Thank you! Regarding "The Silmarillion", I embrace it as the mythology that Third Age denizens would have regarded as a sort of Old Testament. The language is purposefully formal and stilted, kind of like reading a King James. The events described are far grander than the relatively minor by comparison) War of the Ring, all of which only involved the puny remnants of what once was in the First and Second ages.
This is one of the nicest video essays I’ve seen in a long time! I’d only heard of The New Shadow because of the channel In Deep Geek, which offers a brief look into the writing and what it could have been. You did an excellent job exploring the themes and ideas here, kudos!
Jess, in all my years of studying Tolkien's texts...somehow, I've never, ever heard of this. I have no idea how I ever missed it, it just somehow elluded me. Thank you, this was fascinating. I don't think I'm alone in say I'm kind of glad this never can to be, interesting as it is.
Maybe Tolkien sensed a sort of nihilism and novelty in such a concept, something that only entertains but doesn't uplift. Most modern fantasy or writing in general is not morally substantive. At best the morality expressed or explored isn't well thought-out, at worst used as an excuse to write some really messed up and sadistic shit. I believe Tolkien's writings were a way of him expressing what he felt and saw in life, a reflection of the world around him. This potential sequel having a much darker tone might suggest he sensed on some level a growing evil in the world around him that would have been reflected in the book(s).
I like you reflection. In my opinion, the fact that are on current days so many nihilism and unmoral stories where there's no good people, just bad people and worse people, are a reflection about the possible prediction of Tolkien about the future world vision of the people. I honestly believe that today more than ever we need stories that lift us up, not keep us where we are. The worrying thing, for me, is not that we stop to reflect on the corruption of man and the loss of values, what is truly worrying is precisely that we "stop" and do not dare to take the next step to confront the evil before us. we. That is one of the reasons why I love LOTR, because it calls us to not lose hope in dark times and understand that although evil can return, we are the ones who decide what to do with the time we have been given.
Here's a thought - what came of the orcs without Sauron as a leader? Do they decide their own destiny now? Could there be *gasp* good orcs? I admit, I've never read the books myself... but I plan to one day.
I recall a conversation between orcs, I believe in the movie. They talk of when the war is over maybe they slip out with a few of the trusty lads and go to a place with good loot and no big bosses, like old times. They also say like "the enemies don't love us anymore than they do the big boss, if they beat him we're done too"
I had always heard the reason Tolkien abandoned this story was fear that it would be basically taking a big crap on the events of LOTR, and rendering all the struggles and sacrifices the heroes went through back then entirely pointless. I'm not sure where I got that idea, but it is something I agree with, and part of me was always glad Tolkien knew to just stop, unlike most authors who milk things for all their worth and end up with the "Gotham City" problem where it feels like nothing ever really gets solved and the thing is just forever circling the drain. Thus why Tolkien is a great author and most others are merely "good" authors.
I have observed that (and I think history bears this out), as long as there is an external enemy to focus on, so much the better. If there is nothing external, then the societal focus shifts inward and starts destroying itself. We see that in our world today.
Just discovered your channel tonight by complete accident, you have some brilliant takes and I can't wait to watch more of your work. Great job, keep it up girl! x
The -Manichean- _Manichaean_ view reminds me of the tidbits I've heard from introductions to Zoroastrianism: that the earth is a battleground where the servants of Ahura Mazda fight against the dark forces of Angra Mishnu, looking forward to the ultimate victory of the former and judgment of the latter. [Edited to correct autocorrect]
Yes. Mani was definitely influenced by Zoroastianism. It was the state religion of his time. He attempted to combine aspects of this with a number of other religions and philosophies. His dualism in turn influenced a number of christian dualist heresies like the Paulicans and Cathars. Its a popular idea that constantly comes back up throughout religious history.
Dualism has disturbing implications and has been condemned by people of a great many religions for encouraging hatred of the world as evil. Celsus, the anti - Christian writer, accused Christians of being covert Dualists.
To me one writing decision that I think Tolkien could’ve made in writing the New Shadow, that could’ve saved it and made it really stand out, is making one of the main characters be an orc or half orc. This could offer the audience an outsider perspective when getting to know this new side of Middle Earth, while also creating a rlly interesting narrative parallel between this possible orc protagonist and the hobbit mcs of LOTR and The Hobbit. Because hobbits r supposed to represent the best kinds of ppl in society, whereas orcs r meant to represent the worst kinds of ppl in society. So hving a main character who doesn’t hv that same inner goodness and light that say a hobbit would hv, but instead constantly is battling with his own evil nature, which could rlly help with the stories themes on the nature of evil itself and how one can overcome it. This would also be rlly cool if Saelon ended up being a villain in the story, and giving into the temptation of evil, meanwhile the literal orc chooses not to and instead decides to constantly struggle against it and fight for wht is right would just be mega cool, and an absolutely phenomenal way to follow up LOTR.
I would love more them bonding and salon is a good antihero in a cult, while the half orc is also ther eand invited out of curiosity and him staying a lifeline for the bit of humanity salon reached that lers him be open. Tolkien was always good wit hemotional relationships between dudews and that might be even more interesting making it a close relationship. There can be another threat. Ok i just think salon being a compelling condflicted antihero due his humanity and lessons, not be forgotten, but he never got it and the half orc and him talk a lot abbout it bonding, the orc getting him. And they philosophising. Like if its a tolkien story a close emotional relationship could make it work probably. And salons interest in orcs, and the half orcs in men , mightr be very engaging. to, whateve rthe cult tries and they desperate to stop it once the orc helps him make up his mind.
Yeah that could work RLLY well too! U got like a guy who got criticized for behaving too much like an orc and an orc who behaves more like how a typical person would, hving a genuine bromance woulda been something pretty cool to see
theory time, the villian would likely have been man formally known as the Mouth of Sauron, and Shelob probably would have made an appearance. For the latter, it is explicitly stated that shelob would be a problem later on. For the Black Numenorian, his story is a mirror of Sauron but he had something that even the necromancer did not, he is actually a numenorian and therefore is in the royal line of Gondor and human. Like Thû, he was the lieutenant of the dark lord, his most trusted advisor save for the general who leads his armies(ie Gothmog and the witch king). Like the necromancer, he was a minor but notable character in the previous story who got a weird ending, as something to be delt with at a later date. all that said, we know that it would have turned out well at the end because of the appendixes.
I remember reading the blurb on Return of the king as a ten-year-old, it said something like "the choice is between a greyer world, without the elves, or a yellow world under the iron heel of Sauron" and feeling just completely distraught at the thought that a happy ending might not be an option. The unease of that insight stuck with me, and although I was too young to fully grasp it at the time I think it played a part in shaping my understanding of life in general. Nowadays, I can't help but make the association to climate change and the destruction of nature - we might avoid the worst, but the world is already a greyer place.
Westerners side with the hordes of russia, Grima Wormtongues of the world *Cough* Tucker *Cough* Carlson spread blatant lies and men who once valued liberty bow to the will of oreantal despots.
I personally would have loved to turn Borlas into a dark protagonist with a pathological narrative. Haunted by nightmares of the evils of the past, he becomes consumed by his terror and descends into paranoia, unwittingly becoming the true face of darkness he himself feared the most: a serial murderer, with a cult of equally fear-stricken fanatics behind him, rounding up children and slaughtering them in the name of purging “the beguiled disciples of Herumor”. when he comes to his senses, he finds that it is _his_ hands that are stained scarlet from the blood of his peaceful town (but indeed, is humanity itself at the root of evil after all?), massacring those that essentially just amount as Halloween cosplayers at best in his obsession to purge all evil. In the end, he loses his mind and laughs silently at his own folly, the absurdity of the human condition, before he decides to destroy the source of the evil he sees: his own eyes. In the shadows, the true Herumor smiles a twisted smile, for it was always Borlas alone that he wanted, a white knight corrupted to become just like him.
I see it as "now that the big evil is defeated, I need to talk to my son about the local evil in all of us, but in all my life of battles and hardship, I don't know how to deal with this new type of conflict"
Woah-Woah-Woah 😮 ...so, when Aragorn's son takes over Lordship from his father the realm is ALREADY sinking into another darkness? "...What the hell, Dad!"
It really is an interesting premise. Wish we at least had a story outline. But I wonder why Tolkien chose this to be the story? Why did it have to be focused on the men of Gondor? Would they have encountered a small settlement of hobbits that lives in Ithilien? Would we have seen a lone Elf wandering the Greenwood? Or the Dwarves of the Glittering Caves? Would we have seen Eldarion himself? An uneasy truce between Rohan and Dunland? A trip to Annuminas, the abandoned Rivendell, Dale and the Lonely Mountain? Why did Tolkien feel confined to the sequel having to be this story?
I feel like it's a commentary on the post-modernism "There's NO SUCH THING as Good and Evil, just power and will" mindset that swept England after the war. The very thing that Tolkien was trying to subvert and bolster against with his work thus far. To remind people, "We believe in Good _for a reason._ People who've gone through hardship NEED Good to fight for" But I think as he approached it he realized he didn't have a satisfactory answer and he was too old and tired to explore it properly
Tolkien gave up on the sequel after he caught himself writing the line, "Somehow, Sauron has returned."
and he flies now.......and also he's called Martha now.
LOL I thought it was because he realized he'd have to write another whole second age history of more jewelry.
😂😂😂😂
Hmm I thought the angle would be that the shadow returned somehow due to the permanent effects of Melkor weaving evil into the world.
@@HexaDecimusWhy did you say that name?!!!!
The story of this sequel concept and why it was never finished is legitimately fascinating, but can we appreciate for a moment the hilarity of Tolkien basically predicting Game of Thrones and going “eh, fuck that noise”
As a pretty big enjoyer of both, thats poignant. Unfinishable and he knew it.
Let's be honest with ourselves: GRRM isn't going to finish Game of Thrones so his story will end on a cliffhanger same as Tolkien's New Shadow story lol
@@unodos149even the wise cannot see all ends, GRRM may well finish it, I for one LOVE ASOIAF and am very grateful for all GRRM has given us so far.
@@unodos149 I'm fairly certain GRRMs publisher has a deal prepared where someone else will finish the books if he dies. Ofc it won't be the same.
That's part of it, but the driving factor seems to be that he didn't want to nail down his philosophy on evil. Or couldn't, which I completely empathise with
A century later, everyone forgot the atrocities that have happened then and their complacency keeps them from seeing that it is about to happen again. Sounds vaguely familiar
Right??
Unfortunately, it doesn't even have to take that long.
@@tiagotimoteo4004
75 years was a pretty decent period, we’re getting better at this
We smell the old evil, yet are sitting, paralyzed with terror and distracted by the poison of the dark tree, watching into our palantiri, doing nothing.
@@Daniel_Fo77While we, for absolutely no reason, condemn the people that recognise the threat and act against it. I'm talking about antifa. Fascism is a real problem, and it's fastly growing, i disliked antifa too before i realise this
Tolkien starting to write the edgy sequel that basically makes the original pointless:
"Nah this is cringe"
The pointlessness is the point. It is how we as humans live. We scream and cry over injustices we hear about but do nothing about them. And if we can exploit something we are clever but if we are exploited the person in power is cruel and even if we do everything right in a hard time people in a good time simply can not understand us or even what it means to overcome. It is the cycle of humanity and it can be seen as bleak so easily. Perhaps tolkien preffered the light.
Lmao I wish more were like him
If only Disney had thought of that before they made The Sequel Trilogy.
@@HadrianGuardiola
I think Tolkien understood what you said and realized he was no longer writing Fantasy at that point. That’s just holding up a mirror to the world as it is. Do we need a story to reflect the world in which we live? Does it really do anything? He answered no. Frankly, the more I learn of his work, the more I agree with him.
@@kolbywilliams7234 i think you are right. We need high ideals because we often fail. Too much in our current world is so bent on tearing things down and we can at least try to mitigate what we can. I always see a lot of hope in his work and that to me is what makes it so special.
The reading of the first chapter that Jess gives us made me think of the adage, "Those who forget history are doomed to repeat it". The children who want to play 'orc' are unaware of the true horribleness of the War of the Ring because one who lives in a time of peace and plenty cannot know such horrors. Instead they see the orcs as powerful and free; they are not constrained to follow the rules; they can do what they want. The children don't destroy the fruit because they want people to starve or they want vengeance against the owner of the orchard. They simply want to act without constraint. Such behavior is all too common in the real world. I have witnessed this sort of destruction all throughout my life.
A bit too real, no wonder Tolkien didn't want anything to do with that sh!t it's mentally taxing in the extreme, exhausting and nauseating
Yeah, and that shit is exactly what we're living through now. The metaphor is basically all the ultra right wing TH-cam essays. Trying to claim that Hitler wasn't as bad as history portrayed him as which is something talking with vomit on himself over.
@@jordanwhite352 🥱 nah, that's cultural Marxism run amok
@@jordanwhite352 Nothing is worse than far left marxists. They are obsessed about communism. The most sinister ideology ever. The number of people killed by the Communist governments amounts to more than 100 million.
@@jordanwhite352 AH is bad there's no doubt about it but the way he's sometimes portrayed or some see him as this ultimate evil, the climax of history, this demonic force when in reality he was a man and in a way, the fact that he's remembered as this ultimate threat is something he would've smiled at, so let's instead bring him back down to our level. The German film Downfall does this without praising him. Rip Bruno Ganz, easily the best portrayal of AH on screen.
The example of the unripe apples is a memory Saint Augustine recalls in _The Confessions,_ when he was a youth, about the misguided delight to commit mischief (sin) in a group; how despite Augustine having delicious pears at home, still he and his friends enjoyed stealing still unripe pears that didn't belong to them from another person's orchard.
Oh!
Augustine was a scrumper!
I noticed this connection too
I knew i saw connections with Augustine’s Confessions
Augustine will never cease to be a GigaChad.
Gigolò turned businessmen turned philosopher turned devil hunter turned saint.
Tolkien id not embrace a fully duallist approach: Evil is powerful but it is *not* equal to Good. As Eru makes clear to Melkor all the latter's mischief will in the end be woven into the theme and made to serve the purposes of Good.
You can never win against evil thanks to Melkor, but you can defeat it for a time until the Last Battle.
Eru - ‘you live in my house you play by my rules!’
Morgoth - ‘I hate you!’ *slams bedroom door.*
@@KeytarArgonian "I didn't ask to be the offspring of your thought!"
@@richardlafleur8389
Eru ~ ‘Why can’t you be more like your brother?!’
Morgoth ~ *’WOULD THAT MAKE YOU LOVE ME?!’*
@@KeytarArgonian "Manwë, Manwë, Manwë! That's all I ever hear!"
"Kids are playing Orcs without realizing the atrocities the Orcs committed"
hits a little close to home...
Everyone's orc until someone gets...
It hits even closer to home when you reflect that most of the atrocities we read about in The Hobbit and LOTR are committed AGAINST orcs...
@@MilesDashing
That's kinda "If you kill a Nazi you're as bad as a Nazi" logic. It just doesn't play out. Humans killed Orcs because Orcs came to them for the express purpose of enslavement & genocide. Fighting off those Orcs is not an "atrocity" upon the Orcs, but justice in the face of Evil.
@@ixelhaine "Mordor has the right to defend itself"
“If you kill the orcs they win”
Okay buddy
"To trees, all men are orcs" is still a pretty good thing to keep in mind. You know, generally speaking.
It's a super interesting observation!
It's why the ents say that they are not altogether on anyone's side, for no one is altogether on their side.
@@willowarkan2263 I was about to say that Treebeard takes issue with Borlas' quote at 6:04 !
@@bradwilliams7198 I mean Treebeard is the embodiment of the fear of yavanna that what Borlas states is to be the truth of the world and that the trees would not have those who stand for them. Manwe in essence even tells her that what Borlas says is true. the ents mitigate unjust harm, but ultimately the needs of men are still set above the lives of trees in Arda.
It's an excellent observation of human nature, actually.
The New Shadow is one of Tolkien’s biggest flex’s as a writer in my opinion. This complex and dark tale of conspiracy, mystery, and corruption, that he knows could’ve made a great read, that he then just chooses to set aside cause it’s not a tale he’s interested in telling. It’s like the perfect counter to GRRM’s questions of Aragorn’s tax policy
Also we can take a decent stab at Aragorn's tax policy.
@@specialnewb9821 one thing is certain...whatever it would be...Aragorn's tax policy would be far more lenient towards the people than that of his distant numenorean ancestors :)...these were greedy tax collectors hahahah:
"In the second stage, the days of Pride and Glory and grudging of the Ban, they begin to seek wealth rather than bliss. The desire to escape death produced a cult of the dead, and they lavished wealth and an on tombs and memorials. They now made settlements on the west-shores, but these became rather strongholds and ‘factories’ of lords seeking wealth, and the Númenóreans became tax-gatherers carrying off over the sea evermore and more goods in their great ships. The Númenóreans began the forging of arms and engines."
-J.R.R. Tolkien, Letter No. 131
There is definitely a bit of information on the policies of early reign of Aragorn as king hehe, even if we have no hard facts about the taxes :)....well the Beornings had tolls so one can guess there would be such taxations in Gondor hahah.
"‘lndeed,’ said Glóin, `if it were not for the Beornings, the passage from Dale to Rivendell would long ago have become impossible. They are valiant men and keep open the High Pass and the Ford of Carrock. But their tolls are high,’ he added with a shake of his head; `and like Beorn of old they are not over fond of dwarves. Still, they are trusty, and that is much in these days.’"
@@specialnewb9821the fuck does a tax policy have to do with a saga that ends with a bunch of wizards and hobbits sailing with some elves across the seas we’ll never see? What about Samwise and the way he raised his family? Why isn’t that talked about to the extent of a fucking tax policy? What about Merry and Pippin? What’re their stories after the story concluded? That’s the real question here, but whatever fuck it, let’s keep asking about Aragorn’s stupid fucking policies and taxation laws. Wish people were this enthusiastic with their local governments and their own taxation laws, but tsk, that’s too fuckin boring.
No, that isn't the point. The point is that A New Shadow is a terrible sequel to LotR, it tarnishes the point of the previous story. You're also awfully ignorant about the GRRM point on "Aragorn's tax policy". GRRM wasn't criticising Tolkien when he said that, he was talking about the sort of the things that interested him, that propelled him to write his own works. People are so keen to uphold Tolkien by ridiculing other writers, yet they don't even stop actually fucking read what they said. All in name of making pretentious comments online.
@@dawizzatouch some grass
What I like about this is that, yeah things really would go awry sooner or later after the war was won. Hence my most profound geopolitical insight: you can’t save the world forever, you can only hope to keep the chaos at bay for a generation. After that it’s up to other people in another time.
And Tolkien knew it! "“I wish it need not have happened in my time," said Frodo. "So do I," said Gandalf, "and so do all who live to see such times. But that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given us.” (Fellowship of the Ring)
@@markusrobinson3858 And also: "It is not our part to master all the tides of the world, but to do what is in us for the succour of those years wherein we are set, uprooting the evil in the fields that we know, so that those who live after may have clean earth to till. What weather they shall have is not ours to rule." (The Return of the King)
This happens in Foundation by Issac Asimov (I haven't read past book 1).
Read them all.@@himanshugirigoswami4573
This is what eren Yeager did....
I think something that Tolkien was able to realize with his writing and demonstrated with his characters, is that everyone, from the smallest hobbit to the mightiest of gods, can be corrupted. And with the ending of the LOTR and how optimistic it was, peace never lasts.
The mightiest of gods? That doesn’t make sense. Tolkien was a man of faith, and his God is above corruption.
It is why I loved Aragorn's speech to the Rohirrim and the soldiers of Gondor at the Black Gate in The Return of the King film. Although evil will return to the world of Men, they will fight regardless.
@@theguybehindyou4762 There's a metaphysical difference between Eru and the Valar, between the monotheistic idea of God and the polytheistic concept of gods.
@@metempsychosis4062 Fair enough. Still seems odd that a monotheist like Tolkien would use polytheism in his work.
@@theguybehindyou4762 He loved the mythologies of ancient days, and wrote the Valar and his whole mythology in adherence to his Catholic faith. Lewis and Tolkien actually argued on that point quite a bit, on the idea of whether you can be Christian but love mythology. Tolkien believed you could do both, and I'm inclined to agree with him.
A quote from Neil Gaiman’s Sandman:
“All Bette's stories have happy endings. That's because she knows where to stop.”
Neil Gaiman, The Sandman, Vol. 1: Preludes & Nocturnes
The criminally overlooked channel Proper Bird has a video titled 'The Sandman: Morpheus, Why We Love Fictional Characters' that I think you might enjoy.
Bette is most definitely not a character who is to be emulated, especially on her writing
Fear not: New Line Cinema will make a nine-hour trilogy out of that thirteen page manuscript eventually.
Tbf it was made it a really really good Rome Total War mod.
You just need passionate fans who love the original works, who honestly just want to run off with the money and record themselves larping out the setting
Count on Disney to run first with that nonsense and turn it into a total fiasco.
@@Rynewulfoooh please tell me more, I wanna play it
To be fair, if made well, this could be one of the most profound dives into the problem of evil adapted to cinema
I felt your comment in my bones.
I think Tolkien gives his answer in Letter 256. "I could have written a "thriller"....but it would have been just that. Not worth doing." Tolkien clearly loved the craft and art of story telling and wanted to tell the types of stories he loved to hear. If he had wanted to tell a "thriller" I'm sure it would have been a masterpiece of that form, but by his own words his heart wouldn't have been in it so it wouldn't have been worth doing. Still I would love to read a thriller by such a master story teller.
Idk, I think he could have woven his hobbit ideology in there once again, turning the uncomprehendingly depressing idea of evil creeping back no matter how many times it is defeated with, well hey, we got old toby and ale though.
she... said this in the video. she quoted that in the video. did you watch the video lol
It would have been inevitably a de-escalation in stakes compared to LoTR. It'd be like Captain Ahab surviving his encounter with the whale and going ashore to find his wife married again and his son is an alcoholic. Surely, yes, there are compelling things to say about relationships and alcoholism but it'd be no sequel to Moby Dick. A few kids pretending to be orcs and a weird cult in a peaceful and prosperous era likewise is no Sauron.
The natural impulse at this stage would have been to just tell a different story in a new setting that centered around the themes one wish to explore. But Tolkien could not. He grew his tree and he couldn't bear to try and nurse another sapling.
Concerning the nature of evil, I've always liked these quotes from Merlin in Arthurian lore/films:
Arthur, overly content with his reign, asks him where there is evil in the world and Merlin answers: 'Always where you never expect it. Always.'
Merlin also delivered this reality check: ''There is no evil in sorcery only in the hearts of men.'
I always imagined that Tolkien would mostly agree; now I'm not entirely sure anymore.
For anyone interested, the former quote is from the 1981 film _Excalibur_ by John Boorman, and the latter is from the television series _Merlin_ (S5E9).
Tolkien's own attempt at the arthurian legend, the Fall of Arthur didn't talk about Merlin but the Arthur's wars :)...one can wonder....Tolkien makes a surprisingly complex characterization of Guinevere in his poem :) so he certainly would approach the topic with meticulous manner he always had :).
There are many tools which can be used for good or evil. Was a sword good or evil? Is a gun good or evil? They are deadly. Is a torch good or evil? It can provide light or it can set fire to buildings. How about a shovel? That can be used for agriculture, or digging up graves, or as a weapon.
The answer is they are neither: they are all inanimate objects, with no moral value. The person using them is the one who is good or evil, or some mix thereof, and that person decides what kind of acts those tools are used for.
@Gaawachan
Different yet similar, hinting at the same idea is found in Shakespeare's Hamlet:
“There is nothing good or bad, but thinking makes it so," the corollary to which is, "if there's such a thing as bad(or evil), it is a product of thought ie humans."
This chapter works on it's own as a kind of somber epilogue to the story. I think the dialogue between Borlas and Salon depicts how men of Tolkien's and his son's generation struggled to communicate the horrors of their youth to a new generation that grew in a time of peace and would happily play games of War and Nazis, and maybe even mock the rigidity of their parents. I don't think, however, that Borlas in his aging bitterness could have carried the story. A more compelling arc could have been built around Salon, who betrays Borlas and falls to evil, but eventually redeems himself (or not, Tolkien knew how to write tragedies). Tolkien always depicted evil from the outside, through the lense of good characters, so it would have been interesting to see that. His prose here is as beautiful as ever.
Or change to salon that cant kill borlas and borlas reached him and salons inner struggle being in that cult but also his questioning that borlas fostered in conflict. Also his philosophy could be incredibly interesting.
If borlas managed to reach there to make salon really struggle and conflicted between like bad friends and the right thing and humanity, i think it could have worked well.
When I was a kid in the early 90's my friends and I would use a ditch near this house as a "trench" from which we'd blast away at imaginary attackers. The old man who lived there would always angrily chase us off, we never got it at the time
Tolkien is writing this in the late 1950s/mid 1960s?
@@michaelmartin9022 most forms of play involve some kind of conflict that we don’t approve of. It is important to educate on the difference between play and reality, thus yelling at some kids to stop with no explanation is pretty pointless. Maybe the guy was just annoyed you were on his property.
@@kurtwagner350 Or he was a WW2 vet.
As someone who’s read LOTR probably 25 times I still like the dark grimness of The Silmarillion tales.
The long-form version of The Children of Hurin is one of my favourite stories of all time.
The children of Hurin is so overlooked. I only got to it recently and I absolutely blew me away.
Amazing book
Yeah, part of what I like about the Silmarillion is that its a real opening for the imagination, because so much is unsaid, while LOTR is pretty much a self contained story, despite us not knowing much about hte battles around mirkwood, etc.
I still haven't gotten to the Children of Hurin because I read the silmarillion and the unifinished tales so thats the 'turin' I"m used to, and don't want to find out differently.
In college I wrote a paper in an independant studies class I called 'the tragic mythos in the silmarillion', which was comparing Turin to Tuor. I think that was teh most fun I had in school researching that.
@@mikearchibald744 I was the same. Avoided it for ages, but it is definitely worth it. It feels like a proper novel but doesn't take away from or contradict the silm. It just has more detail and dialogue, more character development etc. For me it sat somewhere between lotr and the silm in style. Far more in depth than silm but unlike lotr it moves at a breakneck pace. We get a book that is very dark and upfront about it's darker parts, unlike the way things can be hinted at in lort, and there's more female characters. It's very impactful. The death of Beleg is powerful!
@@djohnston6856 I wonder how much is 'edited' and how much is him 'filling in'. But yeah, I should get down to it. I've heard Turin comes across as even more unlikeable in the full book, but I've also heard he has more criticisms of elves in it. He is shown more sympathetically in the silmarillion because there is less detail. Its kind of like 'the more I hear of Turin the less I like him' but of course not all literature is supposed to be likeable people.
*an episode where somebody steals fruits without the intention of eating them: exists
Me: St Augustin's moment
Admittedly, G.K. Chesterton made an allusion to it also in Orthodoxy. That book was published in 1908, and I little doubt that Tolkien was unfamiliar with the work.
Oh, shoot. I can't believe I missed such an obvious allusion to the guilty pear gobbler.
@blackosprey2219
This story does look way more theological than Tolkien allowed himself to be in his published work.
I wonder if we'd get a sermon about how oaths are bad in a later chapter.
I am pretty sure everyone with a conscience has memories of being changed by sudden regret of unthinking vandalism. RIP dead insects
A part of me wished that Tolkien had exploded more on the LoTR sequel...but a larger part of me also believes that having it an unfinished mystery and the story that never was complete even more fascinating. It even stopped on a chilling note.
The call of Herumour, people missing, The mystery meeting in the night, The smell of old evil returning. Its nice just to keep the idea of the old evil never being defeated as open to interpretation depending on the reader. If you wish for it to be a happily ever after LoTR then sure. If you'd rather focus more on what "happens next" and "whats the new evil" then you can as well with the new shadow and let your mind fly with theories.
Ironic - it's basically the way Animorphs ended, but less depressing.
The New Shadow being what the LOTR was to the Hobbit is very interesting.
I have to say it.... loving the Gothic look.
She’s always slaying the outfits
I dunno, the stain was working for me :-D
In Neil Gaiman's Sandman Dream has a library of books that were never written.
A shame Fifty Shades Of Grey isn't in Dream's library.
Kvothe and Patrick Rothfuss have entered the chat
I want that!
Sir Terry Pratchett: srsly Neil
The criminally overlooked channel Proper Bird has a video titled 'The Sandman: Morpheus, Why We Love Fictional Characters' that I think you might enjoy.
There's a very similar quote about evil being impossible to eradicate and "ever and anon" continuing to grow anew at the very end of Quenta Silmarillion. Of course, at the time Tolkien was working on The New Shadow, nobody else would have read that passage.
Only Eru Illuvatar can eradicate evil for good at the end of days.
Gandalf mentioned something similar in Return of the King. "Evil itself, of which Sauron is but a servant or emissary" would always exist but it was their duty to uproot what evil they could in their time so that future generations have clean earth to till, but it is not their right to dictate what weather those future generations will have.
@@grandadmiralzaarin4962always comes back to morgoth
@@specialnewb9821 technically Eru really since Morgoth's every action and even personality were derived as a fragment or Eru's whole.
People (generally) honour their war veterans, and those who serve in the armed forces in peacetime. But those in the military enable evil, they are never fighting against evil. In both world wars, Christian men on both sides slaughtered each other, in wars organised by other men (who served Satan) primarily to cause death and destruction. All of the politicans on both sides were owned by Satan. The same is true today, millions of innocents killed in Iraq/Afghanistan/Libya/Yemen...the list stretches back to Vietnam/Korea etc. To resist evil we MUST follow Jesus and God, who told us not to murder, not to live by the sword, to love our neighbours. And now more recently, the evil within all governments/UN/WEF/WHO has resulted in tens (maybe hundreds) of millions of deaths due to toxic mrna-altering gene editing pharma/sorcery. The evil ones are literally attempting a genocide of mankind. Those of us with fate watch it happening, and we have faith and hope that God will send out some light to the nations soon, and that Satan and his minions are ejected from heaven (firstly), and then from the earth, all as prophesied. To date, God has been passive, if He doesn't act soon, it will be too late. 2malachi.com check the proclamation for details of the mark of the beast.
Your level of research and depth of knowledge is truly impressive. As someone who has just recently read Tolkien for the first time, your videos offer a real enhancement to my appreciation of these works.
That's so kind! Luckily, a lot of this material is very easy to learn. I've only been seriously studying Tolkien for a year or two now, but it's a joy to share with people.
If Tolkien had written it, it would have been worth reading.
I wish Tolkien could have lived as long as Elros. There was so much more in his head that we will never know. So thankful for Christopher to share these fragments and thoughts. I think you are correct in thinking the New Shadow was abandoned due to challenges he was having with reconciling the nature and origins of evil. I would have loved a Tolkien “thriller” but maybe not a 4th age one.
I am attempting to tackle this story, but from the genre of mystery rather than a straight up thriller, with a Hobbit solving the mystery with aid from people all over Middle-Earth, including the king of South Harad.
@@RoseBaggins i dig this
i find the new shadow really creepy and sinister, it really disturbs me more than anything else in the legendarium. i think it’s because it’s so depressing and un-tolkien like; yes, the prose and philosophy are similar but it really feels like a wizard of oz, behind the curtain moment. its from the perspective of not quite a lower lower class man but it’s not a lord or a king, it’s a POV of a normal gondorian. it’s cynical, it’s philosophy is more thoughtful and existential, and something about inevitability of evil returning so quickly is unsettling after a series such as lotr. and i’m not mad at it, i understand why he didn’t finish it but i would have really loved to see a finished version. he’s a very good thriller writer. the new shadow truly feels like it’s a found account à la the red book or blair witch project lol, and it ending before the narrator can update the audience on what happened that night only adds to the mystery and suspense. so i’m also not mad at it ending the way it did because honestly, it only adds to it.
I unironically wanna see this book get fully written
The New Shadow never getting made does really bring the perceptive that perhaps enough is enough. Look at current fiction such as Marvel and Star Wars. They each reached a climax in their stories where the big bad was defeated. And yet the stories go on with new evil rising to take its place, or being reborn. It could make revisiting those stories feel pointless.
I wonder if people would have felt the same about Lord of the Rings if the New Shadow had been fully written and published. Even if the New Shadow was perfectly written it would have altered the Lord of the Rings. Just as the Lord of the Rings changed how people viewed the Hobbit.
Yes new evil would rise after the events of Lord of the Rings, but the story left on a happy moment when good had defeated evil. Perhaps it is better that we only have those moments to linger on than whatever would happen a hundred more years later.
"Die a heroic tale...or live long enough to become a sad Amazon series"
Harvey Dent...sort of.
I think it is also that the sequel was too close to the real, modern world which Tolkien wanted to escape from in his work. It kind of therefore defeated the point
Your reference to Marvel and Star Wars and having to come up with a new evil in order to continue the stories, made me think of Stargate SG-1. The show should have ended with Season 8. It had a perfect ending; no need to dream up some entirely new atrocity to fight.
They did with the Amazon TV show.
To quote The Sandman: “All Bette's stories have happy endings. That's because she knows where to stop. She's realized the real problem with stories-if you keep them going long enough, they always end in death.”
A clever line, although Gaiman is a foolish atheist who can't accept eternal life.
Just another reason why Gaiman is innocent.
Ever since I read this as a younger teen, I was CONVINCED this was going to be a cult trying to bring Morgoth back through the Door of Night from the Void, and I still am to this day.
Kinda wish he had written it! It seemed like a setup for a grim beginning to a tale that would end more hopefully, which in our grim times would've been a welcome text to turn to for Tolkien's idea of a path out of the worst threat of darkness to hard won victory.
It would be a hard sell to make Gondor turn into a worse threat of darkness than LOTR showcased without undermining one of Tolkien's messages. Tolkien understood that evil bides its time and reaches out its tendrils silently and where it is least likely to be revealed. To have Gondor even theoretically capable of bringing Morgoth back with no more than a cult in Gondor would be to say that Evil has the same sort of power that Good has. To perform miracles towards its goals.
I adore the sort of optimism you hope for out of this book, only is the Lord of the Rings not that book about the path out of the worst threat of darkness?
@@alecyeasting6432 I actually agree. Because evil has operated in the real world much in the same way. Beyond the understanding of short lived men.
I don't think there would be any real risk of Morgoth returning from the void, because the greater part of him by far still remains in Arda. Morgoth's corruption of the fabric of the world is how Sauron could make the One Ring, with the corruption being stronger in the substance of gold.
My thought was that the new shadow was the realisation that there is no escape from the old corruption. A cake baked with a tiny amount of sewage is forever spoiled. The noble purity of ages past is forever gone, and all men become orcs in time, are born to it.
I wouldn't have wanted to write about something so depressing either.
I've heard of the tale and why Tolkien never proceeded with it, given the post war strugle and rebuilding England was going though at the time. Add to that the looming threat of the Nuclear war, and a rise of a new threat in our own east; It makes me glad he did not continue with it.
I didn't even think about the connection to the Soviet Union, or hell, maybe even British authoritarianism/anti-communism during the Cold War. The new shadow is beginning from *within* Gondor, is it not?
For some while after Saelon had gone Borlas stood still, covering his eyes and resting his brow against the cool bark of a tree beside the path. As he stood he searched back in his mind
to discover how this strange and alarming conversation had begun. What he would do after nightfall he did not yet consider. He had not been in good spirits since the spring, though well
enough in body for his age, which burdened him less than his loneliness.(14) Since his son, Berelach,(15) had gone away again in April - he was in the Ships, and now lived mostly near Pelargir
where his duty was - Saelon had been most attentive, whenever he was at home. He went much about the lands of late. Borlas was not sure of his business, though he understood that, among
other interests, he dealt in timber. He brought news from all over the kingdom to his old friend. Or to his friend's old father; for Berelach had been his constant companion at one time, though they seemed seldom to meet nowadays.
'Yes, that was it,' Borlas said to himself. 'I spoke to Saelon of Pelargir, quoting Berelach. There has been some small disquiet down at the Ethir: a few shipmen have disappeared, and also a
small vessel of the Fleet. Nothing much, according to Berelach.
'"Peace makes things slack," he said, I remember, in the voice of an under-officer. "Well, they went off on some ploy of their own, I suppose - friends in one of the western havens, perhaps
- without leave and without a pilot, and they were drowned. It serves them right. We get too few real sailors these days. Fish are more profitable. But at least all know that the west coasts are
not safe for the unskilled."
'That was all. But I spoke of it to Saelon, and asked if he had heard anything of it away south. "Yes," he said, "I did. Few were satisfied with the official view. The men were not unskilled; they were sons of fishermen. And there have been no storms off the coasts for a long time.>
As he heard Saelon say this, suddenly Borlas had remembered the other rumours, the rumours that Othrondir (16) had spoken of. It was he who had used the word 'canker'. And then half to
himself Borlas had spoken aloud about the Dark Tree. He uncovered his eyes and fondled the shapely trunk of the tree that he had leaned on, looking up at its shadowy leaves against the clear fading sky. A star glinted through the branches. Softly he spoke again, as if to the tree.
'Well, what is to be done now? Clearly Saelon is in it. But is it clear? There was the sound of mockery in his words, and scorn of the ordered life of Men. He would not answer a straight question. The black clothes! And yet - why invite me to go with him? Not to convert old Borlas! Useless. Useless to try: no one would hope to win over a man who remembered the Evil of old, however far off. Useless if one succeeded: old Borlas is of no use any longer as a tool for any hand. Saelon might be trying to play the spy, seeking to find out what lies behind the whispers. Black might be a disguise, or an aid to stealth by night. But again, what could I do to help on any secret or dangerous errand? I should be better out of the way.'
With that a cold thought touched Borlas's heart. Put out of the way - was that it? He was to be lured to some place where he could disappear, like the Shipmen? The invitation to go with
Saelon had been given only after he had been startled into revealing that he knew of the whispers - had even heard the name. And he had declared his hostility.
This thought decided Borlas, and he knew that he was resolved now to stand robed in black at the gate in the first dark of night. He was challenged, and he would accept. He smote his
palm against the tree. 'I am not a dotard yet, Neldor,' he said; 'but death is not so far off that I shall lose many good years, if I lose the throw.'
He straightened his back and lifted his head, and walked away up the path, slowly but steadily. The thought crossed his mind even as he stepped over the threshold: 'Perhaps I have
been preserved so long for this purpose: that one should still live, hale in mind, who remembers what went before the Great Peace. Scent has a long memory. I think I could still smell the old
Evil, and know it for what it is.'
The door under the porch was open; but the house behind was darkling. There seemed none of the accustomed sounds of evening, only a soft silence, a dead silence. He entered, wondering
a little. He called, but there was no answer. He halted in the narrow passage that ran through the house, and it seemed that he was wrapped in a blackness: not a glimmer of twilight of the world outside remained there. Suddenly he smelt it, or so it seemed, though it came as it were from within outwards to the sense: he smelt the old Evil and knew it for what it was.
Here, both in A and B, The New Shadow ends, and it will never be known what Borlas found in his dark and silent house, nor what part Saelon was playing and what his intentions were. ..."
One thing is certain....that's a HELL of a cliffhanger :) hehehe.....now Tolkien writing a horror type story or thrillers definitely would be something fascinating ;).
Honestly, if we’re to take Tolkien’s work as intended, it’s meant to be a mythology that leads into our world. I’d say the optimism of LotR’s ending was ruined a long, long time ago
Whenever hear I dialogue between Borlas and Seilon, I wonder "man do we need this more than ever" I understand that J.R.R. Tolkien had a good reason not to write it primarily being it would undercut the catharsis of the Lord of the rings and its happy ending, but I can't help but feel a little robbed of a wonderful story, and not because it would've been a thriller, or grim, or featuring spectacular plot, but because it's honest and surreal portrayal of the corruptible nature of men.
In the fall of numenor, I don't remember which elf spoke to them about the shadow that lies in the hearts of men, and that how elves don't clearly understand what does Shadow is. That's probably what Tolkien was trying to delve into with the new shadow. 🧐
As Tolkien put it, there are two evils: there is the Big Evil, the cosmic threat which looms over us but was ultimately defeated and crushed by Jesus Christ; then there are the Little Evils, the darkness that sapience allows, and must be combatted everyday by good men lest it grow like a ravenous plague of weeds and rot. By the blood of Jesus there is life after death, but this world will be inherited by those that come after us, so let us do our part to make the experiences in that journey to God as good as can be.
I originally learned about "The New Shadow" maybe...15? years ago. But even before that, I was interested in sequel stories to LOTR just because of all the loose threads that had been left in Middle-earth. Then, when I finally learned about "The Peoples of Middle-earth", and "The New Shadow" itself, it struck me more like something from the start of a Lovecraft story. While I would _love_ to have gotten another Middle-earth story from the master himself, I've resigned myself to knowing that if I ever want to experience it, I'll just have to try and write it myself. And in a way, that's another gift of Tolkien to fantasy literature - dangling that carrot of a story to inspire future writers.
Edit: Oh, and - now officially subscribed.
Darkness in Tolkien's writing always felt blacker, deeper, and more sinister than in just about any other work that I've read. I always thought of the Silmarillion as basically a "World History" textbook for Arda, and despite its 'dryness', I came away with a visceral understanding of just how much worse Morgoth actually was than Sauron. The spirit quails a bit at just how suffocating the depths of The New Shadow could actually have been, but morbid curiosity continues to wonder...
It also can be noted that sometimes Darkness as metaphysical and metaphoric concept of evil, or Dark Power and ordinary darkness as absence of light can be differentiated, 'darkness' can be like some sort of substance of it's own or power directly tangible force not merely lack of light...evil beings can wrap themselves in shadow,
"The Light failed; but the Darkness that followed was more than loss of light. In that hour was made a Darkness that seemed not lack but a thing with being of its own: for it was indeed made by malice out of Light, and it had power to pierce the eye, and to enter heart and mind, and strangle the very will." The Silmarillion
....
"Drawing a deep breath they [Frodo and Sam] passed inside [Shelob's Lair]... They walked as it were in a black vapour wrought of veritable darkness itself that, as it was breathed, brought blindness not only to the eyes but to the mind, so that even the memory of colours and of forms and of any light faded out of thought. Night always had been, and always would be, and night was all. ..." Lord of the Rings
It's also seems to be the power the Dark Lords wield to some extent, Sauron was able to create these 'veils of shadow' clouds of darkness that appears almost a tangible power or substance:
"Thence, turning and encircling all its wide girth from south to north, it climbed at last, high in the upper cone, but still far from the reeking summit, to a dark entrance that gazed back east straight to the Window of the Eye in Sauron’s shadow-mantled fortress. Often blocked or destroyed by the tumults of the Mountain’s furnaces, always that road was repaired and cleaned again by the labours of countless orcs.
…Far off the shadows of Sauron hung; but torn by some gust of wind out of the world, or else moved by some great disquiet within, the mantling clouds swirled, and for a moment drew aside; and then he saw, rising black, blacker and darker than the vast shades amid which it stood, the cruel pinnacles and iron crown of the topmost tower of Barad-dûr. One moment only it stared out, but as from some great window immeasurably high there stabbed northward a flame of red, the flicker of a piercing Eye; and then the shadows were furled again and the terrible vision was removed."
...
"Behind [Mount Doom] there hung a vast shadow, ominous as a thunder-cloud, the veils of Barad-dûr that was reared far away upon a long spur of the Ashen Mountains thrust down from the North.... [All the Dark Power's] great stronghold, gate on gate, and tower on tower, was wrapped in a brooding gloom."
...
"But far worse than all such perils was the ever-approaching threat that beat upon them as they went: the dreadful menace of the Power that waited, brooding in deep thought and sleepless malice behind the dark veil about its Throne. Nearer and nearer it drew, looming blacker, like the oncoming of a wall of night at the last end of the world."
...
"Such daylight as followed was dim; for here as the Mountain drew near the air was ever mirky, while out from the Dark Tower there crept the veils of Shadow that Sauron wove about himself."
Even Dol Guldur seems to have had this:
"Then he looked eastward and saw all the land of Lórien running down to the pale gleam of Anduin, the Great River. He lifted his eyes across the river and all the light went out, and he was back again in the world he knew. Beyond the river the land appeared flat and empty, formless and vague, until far away it rose again like a wall, dark and drear. The sun that lay on Lothlórien had no power to enlighten the shadow of that distant height.
'There lies the fastness of Southern Mirkwood,' said Haldir. 'It is clad in a forest of dark fir, where the trees strive one against another and their branches rot and wither. In the midst upon a stony height stands Dol Guldur, where long the hidden Enemy had his dwelling. We fear that now it is inhabited again, and with power sevenfold. A black cloud lies often over it of late."
...
"For when at last the host drew near to Dol Guldur, Eorl turned away westward for fear of the dark shadow and cloud that flowed out from it, and then he rode on within sight of Anduin. "/"As they drew nearer they saw that the white mist was driving back the glooms of Dol Guldur, and soon they passed into it, riding slowly at first and warily; but under its canopy all things were lit with a clear and shadowless light, while to left and right they were guarded as it were by white walls of secrecy."
Even Morgoth had such power it seems....Balrogs were also able to wrap themselves in shadow!
"Thus they brought word to him of well nigh all that passed in Arda; yet some things were hidden even from the eyes of Manwë and the servants of Manwë, for where Melkor sat in his dark thought impenetrable shadows lay. "
...
"And with regard to the Enemy, Melkor, in particular, he [Manwë] could not penetrate by distant mindsight his thought and purposes, since Melkor remained in a fixed and powerful will to withhold his mind: which physically expressed took shape in the darkness and shadows that surrounded him."
@@fantasywind3923the Dark Side clouds everything.
I apologize
Well Morgoth would be the beginner of the 'dark side' hehe...and with the texts of Tolkien at possible existence of other worlds out there;) ;)
"they [the elves] hold that all Creation of any sort must be in Eä, proceeding from Eru in the same way, and therefore being of the same Order. They do not believe in contemporaneous non-contiguous worlds except as an amusing fantasy of the mind. They are (say they) either altogether unknowable, even as to whether they are or are not, or else if there are any intersections (however rare) they are only provinces of one Eä"
...
"After the Valar, who before were the Ainur of the Great Song, entered into Ea, those who were noblest among them and understood most of the mind of Iluvatar sought amid the immeasurable regions of the Beginning for that place where they should establish the Kingdom of Arda in time to come. And when they had chosen that point and region where it should be, they began labours that were needed. Others there were, countless to our thought though known each and numbered in the mind of Iluvatar, whose labour lay elsewhere and in other regions and histories of the Great Tale, amid stars remote and worlds beyond the reach of the furthest thought. But of these others we know nothing and cannot know, though the Valar of Arda, maybe, remember them all."
...
"We cannot say that there ‘must’ be elsewhere in Ea other solar systems ‘like’ Arda, still less that, if there are, they or any one of them must contain a parallel to Imbar. We cannot even say that these things are mathematically very ‘ likely’. But even if the presence elsewhere in Ea of biological ‘life’ was demonstrable, it would not invalidate the Elvish view that Arda (at least while it endures) is the dramatic centre. The demonstration that there existed elsewhere Incarnates, parallel to the Children of Eru, would of course modify the picture, though not wholly invalidate it. The Elvish answer would probably be: ‘Well, there is another Tale. It is not our Tale. Eru can no doubt bring to pass more than one. Not everything is adumbrated in the “Ainulindale”; or the “Ainulindale” may have a wider reference than we knew: other dramas, like in kind if different in process and result, may have gone on in Ea, or may yet go on.’"
But jokes aside....evil is naturally associated with the dark, darkness has always been a terror for humans, filled with fear of unknown and so such themes are universal :).
I just finished the Return of the King and Saruman actually points outs and gloats that the Elven Rings are doomed to fail now that the One Ring is gone. I didn't remember that, but it makes sense that Saruman would know this and be happy about the destruction of so much beauty and goodness.
And you gotta give Frodo credit for sparing him even after he tried to shank him, and how it utterly robbed Saruman of even the pathetic victory of dying to sully the conscience of the Shire.
At the Council of Elrond Gandalf recounts his conversation with Saruman, and he mentions that Saruman has managed to create his own Ring of Power. Tolkien drops this from the story and it's never mentioned again, but it *is* canon that Saruman did it, so . . . I think that means that Saruman isn't permanently dead as long as his own Ring of Power still exists. I think I just figured out who Herumor is.
And where is this Ring of Power of Saruman's? Where else but in Saruman's last known mortal abode: the Shire. And that's how you get Hobbits involved in the story.
I only read that chapter a few days ago, and have read the book many times, and I have no recollection of that ever being said. Are you sure that you are not misremembering what was said in the scene? The closest thing that was said was that Saruman only desired such knowledge. Not that he actually had it
@@crimsonthumos3905 'But I rode to the foot of Orthanc, and came to the stair of Saruman; and there he met me and led me up to his high chamber. He wore a ring on his finger.'
. . .
' "For I am Saruman the Wise, Saruman Ring-maker, Saruman of Many Colours!" '
I thought that Herumor was just what Aragorn became when Eru and the Iluvatar made him the monster he became after committing countless acts of genocide against the orcish people of Middle Earth. These acts conveniently forgotten by the people of Gondor because propaganda is an effective tool, Especially when combined with the traumatic memories of the time.
The moral rules of middle earth continue even as the heroes of yesterday become the monsters of today.
@@Dragonshade64 Can't tell if this is a joke/parody comment.
But it genuinely concerns me that there are people out there who believe this is a more just and righteous moral lens than what is presented in the Lord of the Rings.
Absolutely diabolical, in the literal sense of the word.
@astrovarius543 Personally, I like the ending to not involve killing all the orcs because it wouldn't work for multiple reasons. The harsh moral framework that Aragorn is fully aware of being one of them. I also don't care for dark fantasy either, but can't think of what Herumor would be otherwise. I don't know how common the opinion of my previous post is though. I'm mostly here from the Magic: the Gathering side.
Honestly, a more interesting sequel for Lotor would be to have a story from the perspective of the orcs as they try to rebuild their lives and find an identity as a culture without the constant tyranny of a dark lord or for the semi divine "good" Elves constantly trying to destroy them.
The bit about the youths despoiling his orchard remiinds me a of an English short story we read in high school called "the Destructors" in which a gang of boys growing up in the post-blitz London set about methodically destroyed the home of a wealthy businessman that miraculously survived the bombing just out sheer resentment.
I was also reminded of Graham Greene's story.
Both seem to be inspired by Augustine's, Confessions.
Sauron, being a Maiar, could never actually die. He just retired to Floridor, and became governor there.
I like to think that it could be unofficially considered a canon stand alone short story where the angst of evil endures in our children education, late night debates and dark alleys. Very modern
This is probably my favorite channel right now. So cozy and interesting.
This is a fascinating exploration, Jess. I had heard of the sequel tale but never really thought much about why he didn't choose to complete it. 🤔 (Also, your hair and makeup are en pointe. You look fab! 🖤)
This is what I think is the fundamental problem with the Star Wars sequels. Return of the Jedi had a happily ever after ending where everything was set right. The new sequels undid all of it, deconstructing its heroes, to keep the story going. I can imagine if Tolkien went through with his sequel it would have soured his earlier works.
Sorry, but the Star Wars EU had way darker sequels before Disney got involved.
@@fermintenava5911All this really means is that the same mistake happened twice.
It can be done. Madoka Magica (an anime show) had a happy ending that said everything the author wanted to say... and then it got a sequel that "undid" that happy ending, even arguing against its very tenets and philosophies. And that sequel is a masterpiece, that sparks a dialogue between two opposing views: Thesis, Antithesis. The existence of Rebellion makes the original Madoka Magica better, as it openly attacks the foundations of the first story and allows the audience to determine whether those foundations still stand. (Rebellion is getting a sequel next year, which I'm trusting will bridge the gap between the two opposing philosophies of the current duology.) Great writers who understand the philosophy of their works can do this, and I think Tolkien absolutely understood his own philosophies.
A little note on the dating of The New Shadow - while Tolkien's first idea was to start the story "about 100 years after the Downfall" [of Sauron], he later changed the chronology to the year 220 FA. So well into the reign of Eldarion - I seem to remember it would be around the time Eldarion's reign ended, though don't quote me on that.
You're correct about the timeline adjustment. And to me it made a bit more sense as to why the Gondorians were so complacent by the time of The New Shadow. By then Men had lived in a time of extended peace with rulers that also lived exceedingly long lives because of their remnant Dúnedain and Elven blood. It's almost reminiscent of how Queen Victoria reigned for so long that people so shocked at her death because she had been in power the better part of the century with so much of the population having never known life without her. Similarly, without the shifts caused by regular changes in politics and monarchs in Gondor everything outwardly looks well but easy for a slow creep of evil to fester underneath.
I've always pondered The New Shadow, completed. My theory is that Tolkien was healing and reconciling the mess that war made of him, and found peace instead of going down a goblin hole . He knew there is more to his universe, but could not shape what he wanted with its fire. Thats why The Lord of the Rings is so big, he smelted it down from weird ores...
0:33 the Lord of the Rings was split in 3 books because there was still paper rationing in the United Kingdom in 1954, not because a big book would be heavy.
9:13 when you said "children are playing orcs without realizing the true atrocities that these creatures committed", I could not help to think of the many games where we could play on the Nazi side, glossing over the atrocities of the regime and reducing World War 2 to a simple military conflict. I do not know why, it suddenly felt more disturbing that the Nazi was a playable team in many games.
24:01 if nothing else, the Tolkien did not really see the Silmarillion as a novel, but as a collection of old texts written by many authors during the course of the First Age. Ironically, the current format is exactly that: a collection of stories, some with a distant narrator, others with a narrator inside the heads of the characters; some written in the youth of Tolkien, others near the end of his life.
25:46 I am guessing that it is not the lack of Hobbit that could be a problem with the sequel, but the mundane of the story. The first 3 Ages ended with the defeat of an angelic being. In the Fourth Age, who would be the antagonist? A man? a clever orc? That feels anticlimactic.
You know, there are countless books and movies with a sequel that nobody wanted and nobody liked. I am guessing Tolkien did not want to write one of those inferior sequels. He realized he did not have a story worthy to be told and he stopped.
To your last two points, I agree with you. Once you have defeated an angelic being, what really can be a bigger threat or what can make the sequel story as interesting as the original story? I think that is the problem Marvel is having after the defeat of Thanos. Finding a villain as compelling as Thanos has been difficult. The conclusion Marvel had with the Infinity Stones saga was great. What can you do after that? In my opinion, it’s the same with Star Wars … once you defeated the Emperor, what really can come after him that is an interesting story? No one really measured up to the Emperor and Darth Vader after their defeat. I am not saying it is impossible, but it is extremely difficult, again in my opinion.
Me who plays orcs in Middle Earth Strategy and chaos in Warhammer fantasy and 40K. 😅
@@libertyprime2013lot of bolt action players out there to. Plenty of little plastic Nazis on the tabletop
Extracredits moment
Most of the time, it is the german that is the playable team, not the Nazi, i doubt many Games let you play as some Deathshead SS Officer or Himmler, Goering and the Clique
I wonder if for Tolkien, "playing orcs" was equivalent to children pretending to be nazi officers...
Personally I think the reason Tolkien gave up on the story was due to his tendency to go a mile deep and a mile wide into his stories. In the LOTR books, the incredible interest and inspiration that raptured him into that universe carried him through the experience, and now that he knows what to expect, he wasn't ready to explore that all over again. The prospect alone seemed exhausting.
Edit: now that I finished the video, I kinda like your answer better lol, but do think mine still, at least partly, applies.
Your videos are so calming and relaxing. Along with rain sounds playing in the background on my phone your videos help me calm down when having panic attacks. I've watched through all your videos in the last three days and I love them all! I can't wait to see more as you post them
The dog cut me short...Dunsany with his short entertaining stories who also lived through the early 20th century but no-one has given him the level of attention and consideration you show in LOTR works. Your scripting is wonderfully informative. (An ancient male in Ireland)
Dunsany is, along with William Blake, the true origin point for all the invented mythologies in fantasy fiction. It's a real pity that he isn't more well known in the present day. But then, few of the early fantasy writers get their due these days.
27:20
Which is why sams monologue at the end of the two towers film works so well (also it is ofc derived from the bit where he wonders if tales of him and frodo would be told)
i think he was looking at some of what was happening in the real world and wanted to put it into fiction. which for him, meant he was going to use allegory, something he criticized Dune for having. while he was clearly right to be worried, i can see why he wouldnt have done that
This has become my favorite video of all year and I still have 10 more months! Seriously, the thoughtful comparisons between Boethian and Manichaeism lit my brain up like an Xmas tree. The value and reason for the hobbits was revelatory and you ended the video on such a positive note by tying it all back to Tolkien's story structure was sublime. I am going through all your videos now, but this is the one that will put you on the map!
I used to think the new shadow would have been about Morgoth's inevitable return, as stated in the Silmarillion, but it seems too close in time somehow. I think it is loosely said that his return was not to be until many ages after saurons defeat. I would have loved to read an "interim" story like the return of the shadow as it's stated many times that Morgoth's evil would bear dark fruit many times until his return and final defeat. And somehow that feels like the "true" ending to Tolkiens works, a Ragnarök of sorts which would truelly set everything right at the end. With that in mind, a story like the return of the shadow is not only reasonable, it is inevitable as far as Morgoth's influence is written. I think it could have ended happily after all, however even that would not have set everything right, since only after the destruction of the world would evil finally have been defeated.
When seen like that, between silmarillion and the return of the shadow, lord of the rings was naught but a short flash of light in the darkness, and that might really have been too depressing to be worth writing, even though I would have loved to read it.
Not sure my long rant made any sense, but it is interesting to think about Tolkiens works. Great video as always!
I wish there had been a short (100-200 pages) book about Dagor Dagorath.
Aragorn reigned for 122 years. The story wasn't set 100 years after the fall of Sauron, it was set 100 years in to the rule of Eldarion.
My general take on the nature of Evil in Tolkien’s Middle Earth is that it all germinates from the song of Morgoth before the creation of Arda. His jealousy and desire for power over creation is behind all evil forces within Middle Earth. Sauron, Morgoth’s lieutenant and disciple, adopted this same desire to control all that he could and destroy all that he could not control. It is Sauron’s will, a continued ringing of Morgoth’s song, that is contained and projected by The One Ring. Those that hear The Ring are bent towards evil by the temptation of power. Evil in Middle Earth, at its very core, is to seek to have dominion over all things.
Gandalf's staff that was destroyed was years later found in a chest hidden in a room at the Prancing Pony by a young girl who would become the new most powerful wizard ever.
"Where did you get that?" Legolas asks her. "A good question, for another time" she answers.
I have heard of it before but you have the most detailed discussion of it that I have seen. I would have loved if Prof. Tolkien had written complete books on the Second Age. As always, your videos are informative, interesting, and entertaining. I look forward to them! Thank you!
Fascinating and the first I'm hearing of it. I think you nailed why exactly this wasn't needed though- undoing, or even just underlining what was written in the Silmarillion about Evil always rising again is an interesting idea to explore... but better that it was left for others to explore it.
It must have been so hard, I am trying to write a d&d adventure set in middle earth for my friends to play and I tried to set it in the Forth Age, but without the Elves, Dwarves and Hobbits and magic it just felt so empty that I went back to the Third age, strangely I have always felt very drawn to the Silmerillion but my greatest love is creation myths and the mystery of death in Bronze Age cultures so it has always felt relatable, I can understand why he never wrote the sequel but I long to read it!
Gotta love that syllogism of sorts with the pretext of the tree of evil, and then the character representing the possibility of evil entering speaking of what trees consider to be evil. I.E. What does evil consider evil?
In 13 pages alone I'm inspired.
Melkor whispering from the void I would suspect.
Really great take. Thanks for deconstructing! Personally, I think Tolkein decided it’s not a story worth telling because it’s a horribly depressing truth. All good times must pass, and evil inevitably rises again. It reminds me of a quote by G. Michael Hopf: “Hard times create strong men, strong men create good times, good times create weak men, and weak men create hard times”
Another excellent video. I enjoyed it. The Manichean vs Catholic view of good and evil is a little more complex. Yes, in Catholic thought, evil is a sort of lack, but it is “real” in the sense of ontological. It is a corruption of the good or a disorder of the will. It is therefore a defect in being rather than a separate principle of being. Being itself is good. Intellect and will are good, but they can be disordered: not directed towards their proper ends. That’s a “real,” metaphysical defect that is quite concrete. An easy example would he the fall of an angel. It remains the same kind of thing (has the same essence, which is intrinsically good), but has devolved into a disordered version that fails to attain the telos/end for which it was made. It is a lack in that sense: the imperfection of a thing rather than a separate kind of thing.
I'm so happy that i found this channel. I love the way you research and cover the lore with your own thoughts. I don't always comment, but I do appreciate you. Thank you.
If anyone is interested in a Tolkien adjacent book that looks at many of these themes I’d recommend The C.S Lewis space trilogy. In particular the third novel “That Hideous Strength” (which also references both Numeanor and Middle earth before Tolkien published TLOTR)
And Tolkien refered to it as "That Hideous Book" being very open and brutal with his criticism of his friend's work. (I enjoy the space trilogy btw)
@@cursethemountain yeah it wasn’t particularly uncommon for Tolkien to have some pretty scathing opinions on many of Lewis’s books Lol. Though it does seem (according to the preface anyways) he at least was fond of the first one.
I had heard of "The New Shadow" before, but I'm not sure I ever want to see someone else finish it. Christopher seemed to have been a good enough steward of what should and what should not be published after his father passed, but with Christopher's passing, I think it's time for new publications to stop.
I think it says so much about Tolkien when you see what he attempted to write in earnest and what he abandoned quickly.
When a fan asked him if there was more Black Speech language material he said that he did not attempt to make more because it was dark and sinister and made him uneasy. Its very evident that he was a man who believed he should inject more good than bad into the world. He also had such a strong emotional connection to his writing that it seems like hes channeling some strange energy that affects him deeply.
This reminds me of Christopher Lee's relationship with the occult; "I must caution those curious not to pursue the occult; for in it you will only lose your mind"
Thank you, Jess. ❤❤ (Love the Gothic look, too.)
Your videos are always so insightful and well-edited.
Never heard of this. Frankly what I think the story needs is a hobbit counterpart to Faramir's nephew. Maybe Samwise's kids and grandkids are the new deuteragonists, with Samwise himself being the new elder figure. An Orc-ish hobbit is bringing a new invention into the Shire, unlike any windmill or watermill before-- a hydroelectric (or hydromagic I suppose) dam. Ultimately the story is resolved with the invention of a fishladder (i.e. the Ballard Locks) thus proving that enough orc-ism can solve orc-ishness with the right attutude. Much mention is made of sustainable lumber practices as well as further bemoaning of deforestation.
Bravo, Jess! Your perception about the indispensability of the hobbits really shifted my understanding. I recall that someone--Gandalf?--early on comments something to the effect of the least being the most important. Indeed, the triumph over Sauron is accomplished, in the end, not by force of arms or wizardry, but by purity of heart. To your question, I wouldn't want to read a sequel. I take it as established that all and sundry in the books believe evil will always return and must be combated each time in an indefinite cycle. A sequel would be retelling the story of a new evil and the fight against it, which, however well executed, would just be another verse of the same song. "Not worth the trouble," as you said.
When she started talking about Samwise Gamgee it made me remember all the things he did throughout the Lord of the Rings and he honestly reminds of a Marine, just an average person who was put into this situation to protect his home and no matter what situation he was in he would spite it and get through it and whenever his friends were in danger he would fight like a man possessed to make sure the threat was destroyed like when he killed the Big Spider and fought those Orcs to save Frodo, he was probably really scared but all he cared about was saving his friend.
Edit: word
For a book fragment that's mostly philosophical argument it's a really compelling setup for a thriller and highlights that for the dry reputation he's garnered from Christopher publishing every stray scrap, JRR's polished books are real page turners. I agree that it would have damaged LotR's ending in retrospect, but as a standalone text damn if I don't want to know what happens next.
My man! Also, hearing this i feel like it's fertile ground for some writer to make a different kind of Middle-Earth story that properly comments on the nihilism of our time; yknow, a GOOD writer
I’d heard of the New Shadow and have known about it and investigated it for about 7 or 8 years now and (don’t laugh, I know this is silly) had even taken a shot at writing a rough outline for the continuation of it and beyond, if only for my own entertainment. Watching this video actually helped quite a lot in understanding concepts of the original storyline, which helps me fill in the plot a bit more.
Gawd, I love watching you speak. Your eyes sparkle and your voice resonates with the obvious delight you have with the topics. Thank you!
Regarding "The Silmarillion", I embrace it as the mythology that Third Age denizens would have regarded as a sort of Old Testament. The language is purposefully formal and stilted, kind of like reading a King James. The events described are far grander than the relatively minor by comparison) War of the Ring, all of which only involved the puny remnants of what once was in the First and Second ages.
Even a sinister and depressing story can have a happy, cathartic ending.
This is one of the nicest video essays I’ve seen in a long time! I’d only heard of The New Shadow because of the channel In Deep Geek, which offers a brief look into the writing and what it could have been.
You did an excellent job exploring the themes and ideas here, kudos!
Jess, in all my years of studying Tolkien's texts...somehow, I've never, ever heard of this. I have no idea how I ever missed it, it just somehow elluded me. Thank you, this was fascinating. I don't think I'm alone in say I'm kind of glad this never can to be, interesting as it is.
Maybe Tolkien sensed a sort of nihilism and novelty in such a concept, something that only entertains but doesn't uplift. Most modern fantasy or writing in general is not morally substantive. At best the morality expressed or explored isn't well thought-out, at worst used as an excuse to write some really messed up and sadistic shit.
I believe Tolkien's writings were a way of him expressing what he felt and saw in life, a reflection of the world around him. This potential sequel having a much darker tone might suggest he sensed on some level a growing evil in the world around him that would have been reflected in the book(s).
I like you reflection.
In my opinion, the fact that are on current days so many nihilism and unmoral stories where there's no good people, just bad people and worse people, are a reflection about the possible prediction of Tolkien about the future world vision of the people.
I honestly believe that today more than ever we need stories that lift us up, not keep us where we are. The worrying thing, for me, is not that we stop to reflect on the corruption of man and the loss of values, what is truly worrying is precisely that we "stop" and do not dare to take the next step to confront the evil before us. we. That is one of the reasons why I love LOTR, because it calls us to not lose hope in dark times and understand that although evil can return, we are the ones who decide what to do with the time we have been given.
Wow, I honestly loved you analysis in commentary. Such love and care for the source and ideas are so appreciated!
Here's a thought - what came of the orcs without Sauron as a leader? Do they decide their own destiny now? Could there be *gasp* good orcs? I admit, I've never read the books myself... but I plan to one day.
I recall a conversation between orcs, I believe in the movie.
They talk of when the war is over maybe they slip out with a few of the trusty lads and go to a place with good loot and no big bosses, like old times.
They also say like "the enemies don't love us anymore than they do the big boss, if they beat him we're done too"
They turn into loveable scoundrels like in 40k
I had always heard the reason Tolkien abandoned this story was fear that it would be basically taking a big crap on the events of LOTR, and rendering all the struggles and sacrifices the heroes went through back then entirely pointless.
I'm not sure where I got that idea, but it is something I agree with, and part of me was always glad Tolkien knew to just stop, unlike most authors who milk things for all their worth and end up with the "Gotham City" problem where it feels like nothing ever really gets solved and the thing is just forever circling the drain.
Thus why Tolkien is a great author and most others are merely "good" authors.
I have observed that (and I think history bears this out), as long as there is an external enemy to focus on, so much the better. If there is nothing external, then the societal focus shifts inward and starts destroying itself. We see that in our world today.
Just discovered your channel tonight by complete accident, you have some brilliant takes and I can't wait to watch more of your work. Great job, keep it up girl! x
The -Manichean- _Manichaean_ view reminds me of the tidbits I've heard from introductions to Zoroastrianism: that the earth is a battleground where the servants of Ahura Mazda fight against the dark forces of Angra Mishnu, looking forward to the ultimate victory of the former and judgment of the latter.
[Edited to correct autocorrect]
Yes. Mani was definitely influenced by Zoroastianism. It was the state religion of his time. He attempted to combine aspects of this with a number of other religions and philosophies. His dualism in turn influenced a number of christian dualist heresies like the Paulicans and Cathars. Its a popular idea that constantly comes back up throughout religious history.
Dualism has disturbing implications and has been condemned by people of a great many religions for encouraging hatred of the world as evil.
Celsus, the anti - Christian writer, accused Christians of being covert Dualists.
If there's no hope at the end of it then there's no point in writing it.
To me one writing decision that I think Tolkien could’ve made in writing the New Shadow, that could’ve saved it and made it really stand out, is making one of the main characters be an orc or half orc. This could offer the audience an outsider perspective when getting to know this new side of Middle Earth, while also creating a rlly interesting narrative parallel between this possible orc protagonist and the hobbit mcs of LOTR and The Hobbit. Because hobbits r supposed to represent the best kinds of ppl in society, whereas orcs r meant to represent the worst kinds of ppl in society. So hving a main character who doesn’t hv that same inner goodness and light that say a hobbit would hv, but instead constantly is battling with his own evil nature, which could rlly help with the stories themes on the nature of evil itself and how one can overcome it. This would also be rlly cool if Saelon ended up being a villain in the story, and giving into the temptation of evil, meanwhile the literal orc chooses not to and instead decides to constantly struggle against it and fight for wht is right would just be mega cool, and an absolutely phenomenal way to follow up LOTR.
I would love more them bonding and salon is a good antihero in a cult, while the half orc is also ther eand invited out of curiosity and him staying a lifeline for the bit of humanity salon reached that lers him be open. Tolkien was always good wit hemotional relationships between dudews and that might be even more interesting making it a close relationship. There can be another threat.
Ok i just think salon being a compelling condflicted antihero due his humanity and lessons, not be forgotten, but he never got it and the half orc and him talk a lot abbout it bonding, the orc getting him. And they philosophising.
Like if its a tolkien story a close emotional relationship could make it work probably. And salons interest in orcs, and the half orcs in men , mightr be very engaging. to, whateve rthe cult tries and they desperate to stop it once the orc helps him make up his mind.
Yeah that could work RLLY well too! U got like a guy who got criticized for behaving too much like an orc and an orc who behaves more like how a typical person would, hving a genuine bromance woulda been something pretty cool to see
Inventing time travel just to show Tolkien this comment
Tolkien knew when to stop.
It would've been a cool story, but it was one that didn't need to be told.
theory time, the villian would likely have been man formally known as the Mouth of Sauron, and Shelob probably would have made an appearance. For the latter, it is explicitly stated that shelob would be a problem later on. For the Black Numenorian, his story is a mirror of Sauron but he had something that even the necromancer did not, he is actually a numenorian and therefore is in the royal line of Gondor and human. Like Thû, he was the lieutenant of the dark lord, his most trusted advisor save for the general who leads his armies(ie Gothmog and the witch king). Like the necromancer, he was a minor but notable character in the previous story who got a weird ending, as something to be delt with at a later date. all that said, we know that it would have turned out well at the end because of the appendixes.
I remember reading the blurb on Return of the king as a ten-year-old, it said something like "the choice is between a greyer world, without the elves, or a yellow world under the iron heel of Sauron" and feeling just completely distraught at the thought that a happy ending might not be an option. The unease of that insight stuck with me, and although I was too young to fully grasp it at the time I think it played a part in shaping my understanding of life in general. Nowadays, I can't help but make the association to climate change and the destruction of nature - we might avoid the worst, but the world is already a greyer place.
The time period Tolkien describes in this book of men becoming satiated with good, is the time we live in today.
Westerners side with the hordes of russia, Grima Wormtongues of the world *Cough* Tucker *Cough* Carlson spread blatant lies and men who once valued liberty bow to the will of oreantal despots.
Maybe another reason he didn't write it.
I personally would have loved to turn Borlas into a dark protagonist with a pathological narrative. Haunted by nightmares of the evils of the past, he becomes consumed by his terror and descends into paranoia, unwittingly becoming the true face of darkness he himself feared the most: a serial murderer, with a cult of equally fear-stricken fanatics behind him, rounding up children and slaughtering them in the name of purging “the beguiled disciples of Herumor”. when he comes to his senses, he finds that it is _his_ hands that are stained scarlet from the blood of his peaceful town (but indeed, is humanity itself at the root of evil after all?), massacring those that essentially just amount as Halloween cosplayers at best in his obsession to purge all evil. In the end, he loses his mind and laughs silently at his own folly, the absurdity of the human condition, before he decides to destroy the source of the evil he sees: his own eyes. In the shadows, the true Herumor smiles a twisted smile, for it was always Borlas alone that he wanted, a white knight corrupted to become just like him.
The New Shadow comes across as the grumbling of an old man about the vagaries of youth. "Young people today..." and all that.
That's definitely an aspect of it haha
Not really? It's showing how we always forget the great deeds of the past and fall into sloth via complacency towards evil.
I see it as "now that the big evil is defeated, I need to talk to my son about the local evil in all of us, but in all my life of battles and hardship, I don't know how to deal with this new type of conflict"
Woah-Woah-Woah 😮
...so, when Aragorn's son takes over Lordship from his father the realm is ALREADY sinking into another darkness?
"...What the hell, Dad!"
It really is an interesting premise. Wish we at least had a story outline. But I wonder why Tolkien chose this to be the story? Why did it have to be focused on the men of Gondor? Would they have encountered a small settlement of hobbits that lives in Ithilien? Would we have seen a lone Elf wandering the Greenwood? Or the Dwarves of the Glittering Caves? Would we have seen Eldarion himself? An uneasy truce between Rohan and Dunland? A trip to Annuminas, the abandoned Rivendell, Dale and the Lonely Mountain? Why did Tolkien feel confined to the sequel having to be this story?
I feel like it's a commentary on the post-modernism "There's NO SUCH THING as Good and Evil, just power and will" mindset that swept England after the war. The very thing that Tolkien was trying to subvert and bolster against with his work thus far. To remind people, "We believe in Good _for a reason._ People who've gone through hardship NEED Good to fight for"
But I think as he approached it he realized he didn't have a satisfactory answer and he was too old and tired to explore it properly
Leaving well enough alone is a concept many movie studios should take to heart today… Great video!