Some of the cut categories include Completeness, Genetics, and Work Ethic. At first glance, all of these things might seem indispensable. But really, completeness (or not lacking any body parts) can be subsumed under Symmetry & Proportions, since anyone with glaring weak points or imbalances will be marked down there. Genetics is basically redundant because if you score highly on structure, symmetry and proportions, mass and aesthetics, you're genetically gifted. Aesthetics itself also has some major overlap with symmetry, structure, and proportions, but I felt this is so important in the eyes of most bodybuilding fans, especially the casual viewer, that it warranted its own score. (Also wanted something to offset the enormous advantages modern bodybuilders have in the muscularity and conditioning departments.) Work ethic is a little more debatable but as far as actual bodybuilding competition is concerned, I would argue that it's largely irrelevant. Whether you're squatting 800lbs or only leg pressing 2 plates, it doesn't matter; all that counts at the end of the day is what you bring to the stage. It was kind of factored into Impact & Influence anyway, but I don't believe it deserves its own sub-score. PS Franco Columbu was not included because nobody in their right mind would rank him above Arnold, Zane, AND Sergio. So by definition he cannot be the GOAT.
Franco totally blew it in 1981 despite the contest results. “But he could deadlift 700 lbs. they will say”. Too bad bodybuilding has nothing to do with powerlifting feats.
In defense of Frank Zane: he is the only one here who frequently defeated competitors outweighing him by 30-50 lbs. As far as the shock factor, Zane looked nothing like his photos in real life. I was totally blown away when I saw him in person. His level of conditioning, and his polish and finish were absolutely mind blowing. He didn’t look small at all. That didn’t happen until he stood next to a monster like Lou ferrigano.
Armenak Balasanov I also saw saw Lee Haney in person. He looked like he did in the photos( awesome). I disagree with what you say. I think overall appearance, size, and shape are easy to convey in photographs or in magazines. The quality Zane had was a type of “glow”, “polish”, “finish”, or “ presence” that I have never been able to describe. His skin was paper thin, tan, and the muscles had a type of detail/ perfection I’ve never seen before or since. I was with some friends from high school who doubted that he wasn’t better than Robby and Mentzer and the rest based on photographs in magazines. After I saw him I had a total realignment about what bodybuilding was about and it isn’t weight scales and tape measures. He was just on a different level. When I think of bodybuilding I always think back to what I saw that day in 1980 and I’m still affected by it. I laugh to myself when I hear people think Zane was a natty. There is absolutely zero chance of anyone looking like him without chemical enhancement.
@@kurtvonfricken6829 Wow thats super interesting to hear man. Cool that you've stuck around to bodybuilding after all this time. I always had an ounce of hope and belief in Frank being natural, but judging by what you've seen with your own eyes, maybe thats different. Regardless, I would of never guessed that Frank excelled so much in that area. Truly remarkable if you ask me. That's awesome. Really goes to show how impactful Zane has been for bodybuilding. Would love to hear more tbh
Kurt Vonfricken i absolutely laugh it off when gym newbies said that you can get a physique like franks natty, he is 185-190 lbs at 5-7% BODYFAT while being 5’9, do you realise how much weight you need to lose in order to be that contest ready??? Some 200 lbs fatty gym bros who thinks they are 10% bf (who are actually 20%), “i will cut 10 pounds and ill look like frank zane”, no dude you need to cut at least least 40 lbs lmao.
Plus with the small joints that he has, 185-190 lbs 5’9 5-7% bf is HUGE. That is like 240 lbs if you go to most of fatty gym bros bodyfat (20-25%) and bulked up.
I will say one thing on that I always found early career Dorian to have a very aesthetic physique. I understand his placing but I probably would have given him another point in that area.
My only criticism is that the Olympia wins should be scored in a way that reflects their importance. If you give each Olympia title two points, it really separates out the field. It also breaks that tie between Phil and Dorian.
Shame the score cards arent all public, would have been lots of work but would have showed context, along with adding this to show the issues of some of Arnolds wins at the O when he won undisputed etc
@@CommonSenseBodybuilding I wouldn't because the level of competition was different. 1980s bodybuilders wouldn't stand a chance in the mid to late 90s and so on.
I haven't even watched this yet, but got hyped as soon as I saw that spreadsheet of all the criteria! Nobody breaks down and analyses bodybuilding as well as you do, Love the videos man!
I give a 10 for idea, execution and relative dominance, a 9.5 for analysis only because you missed some pro wins at now defunct organizations and an 11 for entertainment.
The look and the way we judge bodybuilding has changed so much over time, it's really difficult to compare bodybuilders from different eras. I think you have a pretty good system here to level the playing field. Although the Mr. Olympia is the most prestigious contest but its history has some politics around it that suggest that it has not properly recognized some of the greatest athletes competing at the time (Robby Robinson, Mike Mentzer, Flex Wheeler in particular) seem overlooked. There were some dominating and great bodybuilders before the Olympia (Steve Reeves and Reg Park in particular) that would seem to be in some contention for being ranked as GOAT despite existing before the Olympia. Still it's hard to argue with your final rankings. These are all awesome choices.
I am not sure about the weighting between titles and runner up. Surely, coming 1st should worth more than coming second? Jay got 4 from 1st but 6 from runner up? I personally would weight them differently.
Yeah, there's a little lack in weight differentiation here, but to be fair the more you weigh things differently, the more subjective it will have to get. I agree with this point completely though, there were a couple other categories that I would have weighed differently as well but none the less I'm impressed by this list.
@@johnjohnson9567 but at the end of the day: some points were dealt wrongly other places, some points emphazised on things that to some could have emphazised differently, some things shouldnt be measured on a 10 number scale, and you cant rank the top best solely on points. had jay not gotten those points on that occasion, he could have very arguably earned them on other occasions. that goes for all of them. all points aside: i gotta almost 100% agree with the overall ranking, and thats where i would have placed them aswell. at least the top 5/6, zane and oliva are probably the only ones i might change up a bit if i had to.
I liked having them weighed evenly, since it is very seldom viewed as a one man show in the olympia, so the effect of being in first or second for creating your legacy could be fairly similar.
I agree with almost everything, I would have had Olympia wins in its own category but idk if that would have made a difference but I think this is was as objective as it can get (for bodybuilding) I knew Arnold wouldn't be one even suprised he was two, thought Lee Haney would finish a lot higher like he did cuz he's very underappreciated.
Just a bit unfair give 1 point for second place, who got 8 times 2nd place and 0 wins would have same points of someone who won 8 times. Half point would be better
@@Jesus_Garcia25 at the end of the day, some other points could have been dealt very differently. if that "olympia titles" score needed to change up a bit, some other scores arguably needed it too, and at the end the result would probably add up and end with the same outcome. you cant decide who is the GOAT solely by points, its way too subjective - you would have to argue why some things weigh more than others, things that are too improportiante to be measured by giving out points from 1 to 10. and in all honesty (all points aside) the top 9 ranking would look more or less exactly like the one tom said, even if there hadnt been any point system. maybe it randomly just added up like that, some were only 0.5 points away from eachother, but at least it shows the list is a good indicator for the overall ranking, bcs the list ended up the way it probably should have been. His system takes a lot of things into consideration, and if jay maybe shouldnt have gotten a point there, others shouldnt have gotten this point here. at the end it would look more or less the same, bcs this is probably the closest we come to a precise rank of them, even if there hadnt been any points.
God damn I love this channel ... Takes it seriously and gives the time needed to make any list or ranking .... Even though I would put Phil higher in some cases ,... J agree with your list .... Well done brother
Arnold has some really out of balance body parts. His back, delts, triceps, thighs, and forearms weren’t in the same league as his pecs, biceps, and calves.
Good stuff Tommy boy!!!!! I have never been so completely entertained for nearly half an hour without once feeling the urge to double tap forward. This kind of knowledgeable content combined with solid editing and strait forward unbiased commentary is what's going to make you the number one producer of this kind of content and push you past nick and....... is there anyone else? Lol.... I'm a long time NS&P fan but after this one you may be the new top spot holder for me. Thank man!!!! Just awesome!!! Sorry man I couldn't leave it at that. The more I think about it everyone else is out there selling their souls and chasing gossip and drama and you are putting out this kind of timeless and tasteful stuff. My hat goes off to you sir👏
OW man I've been begging and waiting for this! It feels like Christmas morning. Easily one of my favorite BB vids next to your best posers series. This was so indepth that it will be the benchmark for anyone daring to match it. Love the breakdown and subjective scoring, even use of mathematics. Second place should be award half the points of first place Mr.O and 3rd place 1/3 points of one Mr. O win. I think this pretty much validates most people's ranking of BB goats. Loved to see uncrowned Mr. O series.
Lots of people want to look like that. Tons of people are in the gym, taking gear trying to achieve this results or something even close to it. When you walk around you like that people give you a lot of respect and girls give you a lot of attention.
2:18 I know this isn’t the main focus but holy shit, I thought Kevin had the best shoulders but Ronnie is absolutely killing him. Ronnie is so great, his “okay” body parts were rivaling some of the best of others.
Such an underrated channel, idk why you only have 50k subs, you deserve more dude. always look forward to every post you make. all love and more support for you Tom!
Love the video, and love the result too! There were some parts where I disagreed with you... like some parts where I would have put more points for some, less for some on others, and that is exactly why this kind of exercice is very well done! Because if you keep adding metrics, the real GOAT will simply rise to its natural position. You can't argue against the whole chart!
This was by far the most broken down detailed video ever with the photo evidence during the ratings. Im super impressed. Also like how you ranked them by olympia wins. Nice work. Prob took a while to do this. Thank you!
Great analysis and the dashboard is really impressive. Even though there may be some who disagree, I strongly believe Ronnie Coleman is the "Greatest Of All Time"
This work is just simply underrated. Only a true bodybuilding fan would do this. And the result was damn accurate . Man I just wish you success . You gonna be way bigger than you are in days to come.
I'd like to see a video like this for the remaining Mr. Olympia winners - Franco, Samir, Dickerson, etc. I mean it wouldn't be a GOAT video of course, but it would be cool just to see what kind of scores they would get for a lot of these categories.
You have been flying under the radar for way too long, Tom. Content like this is golden, really unparalleled by anything else bodybuilding out here! GREAT VIDEO! 👌🙏
That doesnt make the goat....that makes it the best ambassador and promoter of the sport and thats great. But that doesnt make it the best bodybuilder of all time
I love all of the conditions taken in this ranking of bodybuilders because you know a lot of bodybuilders are gonna get points taken, like Ronnie Coleman and his horrible posing, or lack of leg muscles of the golden era guys, very complete ranking
Really nice job Tom. I first started following bbing in 1979 when I picked up a Muscle Builder Power with Robbie Robinson on the front. So, I have seen basically all the eras over the last 40 years. Most other channels are just regurgitating gossip and they really aren't students of the game with respect to truly assessing physiques and couldn't judge one out of a paper bag in reality.
After watching it, it didn't disappoint. I would say it's your ultimate video, to me, you're the best BB youtuber, you have best shape vids, contest reviews, best body parts, and creative vids like this, arnold is overrated, the ever controversial partial rep vid, the broscience defense vid as a follow up. Thanks a lot for the content. I also think ronnie is the GOAT, 98/99/01 arnold and 03 are peak mass and conditioning, with very few lacking body parts, and very freaky features.
Great content as always. There is one big mistake though. If Arnold is an 11 for impact and influence, then all of them are 1 or less, more like 0,1 or less, it is either that or dont even put arnold on that category. It is like comparing Michael Jackson or The Beatles to a local band from your hometown.
Which is why Arnolds the goat. Not technically the best, but the influence and cult of personality. Same as MJ. I'd take Bron 1st pick all time, but MJ is still the goat.
@@benjaminwilson8807 music is overly subjective, although bodybuilding is subjective its much more defined than music. being famous as a musician doesnt automatically mean youre a better musician, being famous as a bodybuilder doesnt mean hes the best bodybuilder.
He should lose a point or 2 for showing up at the 1980 in less than top shape. I think it hurt his reputation and hurt the sport far more than it helped.
Benjamin Wilson um mj is not the case here. he is clearly a more dominant, skillfull and mentally strong basketball player compared to bron who once gave up and made the big3. well bron has clearly more longevity than mj and he had his some dominant moments that could maybe be compared with mj's , but he cannot beat mj in terms of clear dominance in either as an individual or as a team. mj was dominant as an individual throughout his whole career except at the wizards, but what makes mj special is that he started from the bottom and leaded his team to grow up and build a dynasty. bron also started from the bottom and lead his team to grow up, but he gave it up and that makes the clear difference in terms of mental strength of the two players. if you want to claim bron is better because of his statlines based on his longevity, i say this is basketball not baseball. in baseball, yeah that claim is right but in basketball, already there is karim who beats the hell out of mj in longevity but still remains behind mj. mj is the goat because of his dominance(both individual and team), his skills, his mental toughness, and his influence. bron is clearly behind mj when you consider those things that are important for basketball goat not baseball goat.
This was a great video. Only thing I would change is make Olympia runner ups worth half the points or Olympias double. I would probably do making runner ups half the points because doubling it would be unfair since Arnold had many years where the title was just given to him or was unjustly given (1980) and Oliva also had a couple years where there was no competition. But jay cutler having a higher Olympia score than Ronnie is unfair once you consider the fact Ronnie has double his Olympia wins.
You deserve way more subs and views my man. Extremely detailed and informing. You are clearly passionate about the sport of Bodybuilding 💪 amen brotha 🙏
If you put the runner ups title you get that Jay was a better bodybuilder than Ronnie (when you combine the Olympia wins and runner ups title you get a score of 10-9) which is clearly not the case since most of those losses can be attributed to Ronnie
Hello tomn8ter, im watching u since u started your channel, back in the days when even the LUI was still around. U did a great video on the topic "GOAT" I love the approach and system u used. And the outcome is clear, Ronnie, no matter how you slice or dice it, with that many variables, and still Ronnie comes on top. Great to see your channel grow so much and your video's are keeping better.
This video was extremely enjoyable for me, many thanks for the analysis! My feeling is that Frank Zane was neglected from the standpoint of posing and impact, on the other hand Ronnie Coleman was overrated in the field of aesthetics (e.g. Dorian Yates had extremely good calves with no bubble gut and got only 6, Ronnie had bad calves and big gut, in spite of that he received 7) and individual routines (I really do not like his dancing style during posing). Thanks again!
i think Ronnie is one of the few (if not the only) who could win from from the generations above his. I know his reing was not so long ago, but putting in perpective, haney´s physique couldn´t beat dorian´s, dorian´s physique couldn´t beat ronnie´s, but ronnie´s best shape would beat jay and phill´s
Yates wouldn't beat an 03 ronnie purely down to the fact that he would get outsized and outmuscled but remember that wasn't the best ronnie! He was massive, but so was his gut and his conditioning was non existent to that of 98! You can see it in his back, how watery it looks and his overall symmetry and proportions were awful. This isn't a knock on ronnie in anyway, he's one of my favourites. Ronnies best physique was 98 and that's coming from ronnie himself, along with 01 Arnold Classic, purely down to the fact that they were almost identical physiques in terms of size, weight and conditioning. So if you put them against a 95 yates, yates would come out on top! 95 yates 257-60, ronnie in 98 was 247 I believe. Yates wins 4 out of the 7 compulsory poses.. (YATES WINS) FLS BLS ST A&T (RONNIE WINS) FDB BDB SC. Ronnie in 98 was good enough for the win, but he barely beat an off flex wheeler. That physique is more beatable than an 03-05 one! Chris aceto said himself how impressive dorian was in person that year up close. Was like he had no skin his conditioning was that good A long with all that size and thickness too! I asked him in a recent Instagram live chat 95 yates vs 98 ronnie and he said yates beats him (just) so for the people that constantly go on about ronnie and the years he was apparently unbeatable, try backing it up with some kind of knowledge or criteria as to why.....
@@scottish__beard8856The truth remain that Ronnie best version/year will beat any of Yates prime.😂 People mostly describe Ronnie as a different breed entirely when it comes to body building. Ronnie look like a monster/beast😂.
An amazing video!! Truly well thought out and I’m sure took a lot of effort and time. Well worth the long video time and honestly a very accurate video! Awesome job Tomn8er!!
An amazing scale, what a perfect way to place the guys! The reason I honour you this is simply because you are honest, yet bang on when judging my friend-) Facts not emotions you speak honestly from, and I totally love it. Thank you again my friend
Impressive work👏👏👏 My only critic is that someone like Haney (8 M.O. in a row) in the department of titles is at the bottom. You should have applied some kind of correction factorc for second places or minor titles. In the 80's he was the number one star and influence by a mille. On cover magazines for a decade every single Month. And, by the way, something I do not think was represented properly in the influence department; He was the very first modern bodybuilder IMHO! THANKS A LOT FOR THE VIDEO, TRULY ENJOYABLE!!!!!
I see Haney as the end of the Golden Era. Everything after him was mass monsters and bubble guts. People were dropping dead or coming close to dropping dead in the 90s from abusing diuretics.
Once you hit the Olympia with a bubble gut; you lost me. Just no excuse. Lee Haney is my choice; what an amazing physique from head to toe; not to mention the professionalism and class.
prewsky I am with you there sir. I had hoped Haney would fare better as he is such a class act and incredible physique. Ronnies bubble gut is super lame but I can respect the Tominator and how he got to this conclusion.
You only see the bubble gut when they are relax. You hardly ever see it in the mandatories. And tbh as a bodybuilder ronnie obv destroys haney, and has imo a better legacy than him. Haney had a weak line up and had weak legs compared to other BBs in his lineup. Nonetheless both are greats. Ronnie is the goat
Good effort man , Iam an Engineer and I would prefer if you could assign certain percentage for each catagory and the total at the end doesn’t exceed 100 , if the number in certain categories exceed the percentage intended, you just do a simple transfer to get the score out of the percentage that you assigned. This will give the importance of each category its true value since now some category are higher than they should be since they have many scoring raw. I hope you got my point. Thanks for your efforts. You are a special person.
Arnold was not thick-waisted! He was wide-waisted. Indeed, when Arnold turned to the side, his waist damn near disappeared, making his upper body mass absolutely overwhelming and awe-inspiring.
Great video, I believe Olivia is the most overlooked champion of all time. Can you imagine how great he would have been with the training and nutrition of today? He was literally training in the dark ages and eating that way as well. Plus they didn’t really have a lot of posing info to refer to. He and Larry Scott were kinda of the pro bodybuilding pioneers. When you look at Olivia’s physique and realize it’s from the late 60’s it blows the mind how he developed it with such primitive equipment
Olivia had the best genetics of any bodybuilder and if he trained like Dorian and had the same mindset, he would've blown the doors of Arnold or Ronnie! His 28 in waist would've been even smaller at 27in and with Dorian's grainy conditioning he would've been unbeatable!!
Dont forget the steroids/hormons/peptide knowledge. He lived in the era where even the pros only knew the bare minimum. Dbol+primo and that's it. A bodybuilder of their age would have unparalelled conditioning hooked them up with some tren/mtren/mast etc
Great video man, keep 'em coming! As a side note, it's a shame Ronnie destroyed his body being the best of all time... One could argue that it was the only way to do it, but the truth is we will never know, and I tend to perceive bodybuilding legends as someone like Arnold, Jay and Dorian, who gave it all at their prime, but knew how to pull back and stay healthy and inspiring.
Nah Ronnie could've mostly avoided it. His worst injuries occurred after he was already retired when he stubbornly refused to stop training like a maniac, even post-surgery. Dorian proved that it's possible to flip that switch back off.
Phenomenal video man. probably my favorite video you've made. Analysis was awesome and I can see the amount of effort put into every number. Really hard video, but for the most part, I'm happy with about everything. great effort for this man
I'm glad to hear Sergio being talked about. Too often people think of him as the guy who lost to Arnold rather than the once-in-a-generation talent he was. His physique was way ahead of it's time. I think he's one of the few gifted enough that he would have stood out in any era.
Realy good video and concept, dude. Most people don't realize how much time and effort you put into this video. You deserve a lot more subscribers. Next to RxMuscle, I'd say you rank at the top of bodybuilding channels. Coincidence? I think not. As you are Dave and probably the two smartest guys who cover this topic. Much respect from Atlantic Canada.
Great Vid, Honestly U should replace the judges in the Mr O Next vid: do one for the best 1 time Mr O, Samir, Dickerson, Shawn, and Brandon on this exact same format
As I feared when I saw the criteria this is partially an exercise in Dorian bashing. He was the most dominant bodybuilder (with Ronnie). No one dominated his opponents mentally more than Dorian. How many times did Ronnie finish outside the top three? How mant times did Dorian? Dorian' score for Impact and Influence is - forgive the strident language - a joke. He crashed onto the scene and every bodybuilder since Dorian looks like they do because of Dorian. That is influence, He has to score 9. Dorian and Haney score 4 for Longevity? Oliva made a comeback after years in the wilderness and scores high. So if Haney made one appearance this year- regardless of his condition, would his longevity go up to 10? Decade long careers can't score 4. I think this proves you were 'relative' scoring against a Dexter baseline - he gets 10, so you suggest it's impossible to compete longer. I'd have Dorian and Haney with several more points at the end in joint second. It would be closer on my card....but it's hard to argue with Ronnie as the winner. From any competitive standpoint, the best Ronnie beats the best everyone else. He edges Yates and Lee. Who would just edge Phil - Phil's best physique maybe pushes Ron hard, but there's too many factors against him to be top three. But hey, if we're talking about real longevity and greatness off stage as well as on it.... Ronnie's body is destroyed. Dorian is a polarising character with weak biceps. Phil turned up for three years with a bubble gut and some people just hate that guy. Arnold had some gifted wins and some weak ass body parts. But Lee Haney? Lee is one of the happiest and healthiest 60 year olds on the planet. He is universally admired for his aesthetic yet huge frame and balanced, ripped physique. He is universally admired for the intelligent and generous ambassadorial role he takes for the sport. He has eight Sandows and only one of them was even close. No robberies or questionable decisions. No controversies. Gaspari (who took 2nd to him 3 times and 3rd once) and even Dorian (who beat him in the mandatories in 91) have never even hinted or suggested they should have beaten him. You may argue it was a weak era but he won by such margins it was total dominance.....by a real gentleman. Tot up your points if you must. On a stage in peak condition Ronnie would probably win. But the greatest in my mind? Never off. Always classy. Aesthetic as fuck. Healthy as hell. Lee Haney.
Your last line really sums it up for me as well. Lee Haney is such a gentleman and true ambassador of the sport. His consistency was frightening and he really owned the 1980s. Physique-wise I think he's the best of both worlds....lots of mass while retaining aesthetics that ANY man would be envious of. Any Mr. Olympia after him with the possible exception of DJ, has had to my eyes, something about their physique that was entirely unappealing and thus, less Olympia-like to me. (bubble guts, blocky waists, TOO big of a back, etc) I love this video though and the effort Tom put into it. Regards
I agree. Great video and for the most part I agree with outcome but to me Lee Haney is best combo of size, symmetry and conditioning. Being a class act goes a long way in my book too!
@@kurtvonfricken6829 I think that's a bit harsh, As I've said his place in the world of bodybuilding - healthy and ambassadorial greatly contributes to his overall status and 8 wins is statistically the joint best. But to say everyone since then is worse is a subjective view. I admire aesthetics but you can't deny Dorian's impact - only one year did he have what you could call a bubble gut. In 93 he presented perhaps the greatest package ever seen. No one before or since has produced that granite hard conditioning and back detail at that bodyweight. None of the mass monsters could match his conditioning.....and none of the aesthetes could match his mass. Jay Cutler wasn't as freaky big Ronnie or as conditioned as Dorian but in 2009 he produced a ohysique with no weak points. 270lbs of perfect proportion. Heath in 2011 and 2013, before the bubble gut, delivered a roundness and fullness in every muscle group that was unprecedented in competition shape. And all through the 90s and 2000s Flex Wheeler, Shawn Ray and Dexter presented full, aesthetic physiques thaf were more complete than Haney's - better limbs. Lee is, all things considered, the greatest bodybuilder but that doesn't necessarily mean he had the greatest body......even I acknowledge that part is totally subjective.
Mark Heywood I'm not saying the competitors themselves are worse. The standards are worse. When someone under 200 lbs. ( actually now the minimum seems to be 250 lbs) is totally uncompetitive and someone can win with a bubblegut I think the situation is out of hand. It's what the judges reward that defines the sport.
In some years Coleman calves are decent, triceps are good separated and big, just high insertion. Yes he has gut some year, like almost all bodybuilders
Riffat Islam young Ronnie was more aesthetic than any version of Jay. The version in 1998 was probably the most aesthetic mass monster that has ever graced the stage.
@@heimtime_lifting and 2009 version of jay is the most aesthetic of any mass monster RONNIE was only aesthetic in his early 2 or 3 olympia wins Jay always looked more aesthetic except 07 and 08
The Idea of this list is pretty great and I almost agree completely with the way you judged the respective categories, but one thing that doesn't really make sense in my eyes is that the points for 2nd place olympia are 1:1 with 1st place olympia placings. So Jay has the edge here with 10 points in total even though he only actually won 4 times. I would have given it something like a x0.5 or x0.7 multiplicator.
I can live with those rankings ! Although I personally feel that Arnold had a little too much influence which benefitted himself in accumulating his 7 Titles, he makes up for it by having influenced the sport more than anyone ever. Everyone has had their share of criticisms and compliments, with some more than others, which more or less cancels themselves out. It’s funny, because if you were to do another one of these videos with the bodybuilders who never won a Mr.O Title, they’d almost all come from the Yates/Coleman era. The consistency of the competition back then was simply spectacular. And this is most likely why the 90’s is seen as the best era ever. Cheers
I lost interest after the1980-1981 Olympia contests. I believe the 90s might have seen the best competitors because of the drugs. Weren’t more people dying right after competitions back then? I think people might have wised up but perhaps not.
Kurt Vonfricken Well, Arnold’s era wasn’t much better than the era’s that came after. Read this article. It’s unreal. www.chaosandpain.com/tips/just-how-badly-do-you-want-to-win-not-as-badly-as-pete-grymkowski-did/ I’d say the recreational drugs are the biggest killers. Although, diuretics and insulin are also not great if you don’t have a full time personal doctor. People did whatever worked for them back then. It’s just that nowadays, there’s more things that work. It really boils down to that. It seems the top bodybuilders all stay relatively healthy after they retire. It’s the bodybuilders who push the limits too far yet can’t achieve their goals that go off the deep end.
No way the top 5 goat that came from this analysis is also my top 5 bodybuilders in the SAME order. Not spoiling for those reading comments while watching!
What’s amazing about body building is it’s almost always going to be about the subjective impact the athletes and their physiques have on us, the fans. We’re all into the sport because we can find a physique that speaks to what WE find aesthetic, what WE find impressive, and what WE want to emulate. This discussion of the GOAT should not be about heated debate, but a celebration of a sport that purely exists to empower others
Some of the cut categories include Completeness, Genetics, and Work Ethic. At first glance, all of these things might seem indispensable. But really, completeness (or not lacking any body parts) can be subsumed under Symmetry & Proportions, since anyone with glaring weak points or imbalances will be marked down there.
Genetics is basically redundant because if you score highly on structure, symmetry and proportions, mass and aesthetics, you're genetically gifted. Aesthetics itself also has some major overlap with symmetry, structure, and proportions, but I felt this is so important in the eyes of most bodybuilding fans, especially the casual viewer, that it warranted its own score. (Also wanted something to offset the enormous advantages modern bodybuilders have in the muscularity and conditioning departments.)
Work ethic is a little more debatable but as far as actual bodybuilding competition is concerned, I would argue that it's largely irrelevant. Whether you're squatting 800lbs or only leg pressing 2 plates, it doesn't matter; all that counts at the end of the day is what you bring to the stage. It was kind of factored into Impact & Influence anyway, but I don't believe it deserves its own sub-score.
PS Franco Columbu was not included because nobody in their right mind would rank him above Arnold, Zane, AND Sergio. So by definition he cannot be the GOAT.
Nice beard man, suits your jawline!
Franco totally blew it in 1981 despite the contest results. “But he could deadlift 700 lbs. they will say”. Too bad bodybuilding has nothing to do with powerlifting feats.
So you're giving 1 point for Olympia wins and 1 point for Olympia 2nd place 😄😄😄😄😄😄😄
So we're giving 11pts on a 10pt must system 🙄🤦♂️
Great content my friend thanks
I'm most impressed by the tasteful layout and color scheme of that spreadsheet
🤣👍🏻
My eye balls
The name of that colour scheme is “vomit”
In defense of Frank Zane: he is the only one here who frequently defeated competitors outweighing him by 30-50 lbs. As far as the shock factor, Zane looked nothing like his photos in real life. I was totally blown away when I saw him in person. His level of conditioning, and his polish and finish were absolutely mind blowing. He didn’t look small at all. That didn’t happen until he stood next to a monster like Lou ferrigano.
Have you seen the rest in person too? Lol
I believe every other man would look much more impressive too than on photos🤷🏻♂️
Armenak Balasanov
I also saw saw Lee Haney in person. He looked like he did in the photos( awesome). I disagree with what you say. I think overall appearance, size, and shape are easy to convey in photographs or in magazines. The quality Zane had was a type of “glow”, “polish”, “finish”, or “ presence” that I have never been able to describe. His skin was paper thin, tan, and the muscles had a type of detail/ perfection I’ve never seen before or since. I was with some friends from high school who doubted that he wasn’t better than Robby and Mentzer and the rest based on photographs in magazines. After I saw him I had a total realignment about what bodybuilding was about and it isn’t weight scales and tape measures. He was just on a different level. When I think of bodybuilding I always think back to what I saw that day in 1980 and I’m still affected by it. I laugh to myself when I hear people think Zane was a natty. There is absolutely zero chance of anyone looking like him without chemical enhancement.
@@kurtvonfricken6829 Wow thats super interesting to hear man. Cool that you've stuck around to bodybuilding after all this time. I always had an ounce of hope and belief in Frank being natural, but judging by what you've seen with your own eyes, maybe thats different. Regardless, I would of never guessed that Frank excelled so much in that area. Truly remarkable if you ask me. That's awesome. Really goes to show how impactful Zane has been for bodybuilding. Would love to hear more tbh
Kurt Vonfricken i absolutely laugh it off when gym newbies said that you can get a physique like franks natty, he is 185-190 lbs at 5-7% BODYFAT while being 5’9, do you realise how much weight you need to lose in order to be that contest ready??? Some 200 lbs fatty gym bros who thinks they are 10% bf (who are actually 20%), “i will cut 10 pounds and ill look like frank zane”, no dude you need to cut at least least 40 lbs lmao.
Plus with the small joints that he has, 185-190 lbs 5’9 5-7% bf is HUGE. That is like 240 lbs if you go to most of fatty gym bros bodyfat (20-25%) and bulked up.
I appreciate how unbiased you were favoring the modern guys for size and then the classic guys for aesthetics. You did that in a very fair way.
I will say one thing on that I always found early career Dorian to have a very aesthetic physique. I understand his placing but I probably would have given him another point in that area.
Early Dorian (up to 93) gets say a 7.5 on aesthetics. By the last couple years he was a 5-6 at best, hence the lower end score.
He is a Ronnie's fanboy.
Glad that he is finished
@@Tomn8er But Ronnie had huge gut and split 4-pack.
98 he had a gyno.
My only criticism is that the Olympia wins should be scored in a way that reflects their importance. If you give each Olympia title two points, it really separates out the field. It also breaks that tie between Phil and Dorian.
Shame the score cards arent all public, would have been lots of work but would have showed context, along with adding this to show the issues of some of Arnolds wins at the O when he won undisputed etc
@@CommonSenseBodybuilding I wouldn't because the level of competition was different. 1980s bodybuilders wouldn't stand a chance in the mid to late 90s and so on.
@@carlanderson2468 Except 90's guys who would probably crush todays lineup
@@dual7779 I agree 100% 👍
I haven't even watched this yet, but got hyped as soon as I saw that spreadsheet of all the criteria! Nobody breaks down and analyses bodybuilding as well as you do, Love the videos man!
This is literally my all time fav bb youtube video
Same here. He's probably the most objective and thorough one on youtube
I give a 10 for idea, execution and relative dominance, a 9.5 for analysis only because you missed some pro wins at now defunct organizations and an 11 for entertainment.
The look and the way we judge bodybuilding has changed so much over time, it's really difficult to compare bodybuilders from different eras. I think you have a pretty good system here to level the playing field. Although the Mr. Olympia is the most prestigious contest but its history has some politics around it that suggest that it has not properly recognized some of the greatest athletes competing at the time (Robby Robinson, Mike Mentzer, Flex Wheeler in particular) seem overlooked. There were some dominating and great bodybuilders before the Olympia (Steve Reeves and Reg Park in particular) that would seem to be in some contention for being ranked as GOAT despite existing before the Olympia. Still it's hard to argue with your final rankings. These are all awesome choices.
Solid breakdown. I don't think many would argue with the outcome.
I am not sure about the weighting between titles and runner up. Surely, coming 1st should worth more than coming second? Jay got 4 from 1st but 6 from runner up? I personally would weight them differently.
Yeah, there's a little lack in weight differentiation here, but to be fair the more you weigh things differently, the more subjective it will have to get. I agree with this point completely though, there were a couple other categories that I would have weighed differently as well but none the less I'm impressed by this list.
Yes was thinking the same. I would have just awarded a half point for each runner up
@@johnjohnson9567 but at the end of the day: some points were dealt wrongly other places, some points emphazised on things that to some could have emphazised differently, some things shouldnt be measured on a 10 number scale, and you cant rank the top best solely on points. had jay not gotten those points on that occasion, he could have very arguably earned them on other occasions. that goes for all of them. all points aside: i gotta almost 100% agree with the overall ranking, and thats where i would have placed them aswell. at least the top 5/6, zane and oliva are probably the only ones i might change up a bit if i had to.
I liked having them weighed evenly, since it is very seldom viewed as a one man show in the olympia, so the effect of being in first or second for creating your legacy could be fairly similar.
The runner up favored jay too much
You are single handedly the best bb TH-camr out there
I agree with almost everything, I would have had Olympia wins in its own category but idk if that would have made a difference but I think this is was as objective as it can get (for bodybuilding) I knew Arnold wouldn't be one even suprised he was two, thought Lee Haney would finish a lot higher like he did cuz he's very underappreciated.
Just a bit unfair give 1 point for second place, who got 8 times 2nd place and 0 wins would have same points of someone who won 8 times. Half point would be better
Yeah the scores shouldn't all be given equal weighting but it was complicated enough as it is
@@Tomn8er come on Tom you give more points to Jay than Haney for that
@@Jesus_Garcia25 that was also my point!! Well spotted 😉
@@jesusconde4317 hahaha😊👌
@@Jesus_Garcia25 at the end of the day, some other points could have been dealt very differently. if that "olympia titles" score needed to change up a bit, some other scores arguably needed it too, and at the end the result would probably add up and end with the same outcome. you cant decide who is the GOAT solely by points, its way too subjective - you would have to argue why some things weigh more than others, things that are too improportiante to be measured by giving out points from 1 to 10. and in all honesty (all points aside) the top 9 ranking would look more or less exactly like the one tom said, even if there hadnt been any point system. maybe it randomly just added up like that, some were only 0.5 points away from eachother, but at least it shows the list is a good indicator for the overall ranking, bcs the list ended up the way it probably should have been. His system takes a lot of things into consideration, and if jay maybe shouldnt have gotten a point there, others shouldnt have gotten this point here. at the end it would look more or less the same, bcs this is probably the closest we come to a precise rank of them, even if there hadnt been any points.
Yeah Arnold is the reason why Bodybuilding got more popular today and inspired a lot of people to workout
While I disagree with some of the points, overall this video is extremely thorough and well composed. Great job! Enjoyed watching!
God damn I love this channel ... Takes it seriously and gives the time needed to make any list or ranking .... Even though I would put Phil higher in some cases ,... J agree with your list .... Well done brother
One thing id definitely disagree with is ranking arnold above haney in aesthetics. Great video though!
Arnold has some really out of balance body parts. His back, delts, triceps, thighs, and forearms weren’t in the same league as his pecs, biceps, and calves.
Yeah, Haney got shafted on this video.
Good stuff Tommy boy!!!!! I have never been so completely entertained for nearly half an hour without once feeling the urge to double tap forward. This kind of knowledgeable content combined with solid editing and strait forward unbiased commentary is what's going to make you the number one producer of this kind of content and push you past nick and....... is there anyone else? Lol.... I'm a long time NS&P fan but after this one you may be the new top spot holder for me. Thank man!!!! Just awesome!!!
Sorry man I couldn't leave it at that. The more I think about it everyone else is out there selling their souls and chasing gossip and drama and you are putting out this kind of timeless and tasteful stuff. My hat goes off to you sir👏
OW man I've been begging and waiting for this! It feels like Christmas morning. Easily one of my favorite BB vids next to your best posers series. This was so indepth that it will be the benchmark for anyone daring to match it. Love the breakdown and subjective scoring, even use of mathematics. Second place should be award half the points of first place Mr.O and 3rd place 1/3 points of one Mr. O win. I think this pretty much validates most people's ranking of BB goats.
Loved to see uncrowned Mr. O series.
Can't remember the last time I enjoyed a bodybuilding video that much. Great job dude
Ronnie, in 1999, is the unbeatable version. He is the goat, of course.
Nobody wants to actually look like that though
100% not, not even remotely close bud
@@nealkelly9757 pro bb is not a beauty contest even Arnold was pretty massive for his era
Lots of people want to look like that. Tons of people are in the gym, taking gear trying to achieve this results or something even close to it. When you walk around you like that people give you a lot of respect and girls give you a lot of attention.
@@nealkelly9757 ask today's amateur body builders or may be you can ask pros too.
Tbh i think that mr o runner ups should be like 0,5 points i dont think its fair that jay should get more points than better bodybuilders
I agree on that, thought the same thing!
Attack Tyronecopter “better” 🧐
Jay has more points than Ronnie, and Haney, that doesn't make sense
Do you know how many times Jay came runner up in the O? 😱
Nathan Legg ronnie, dorian and lee were better bodybuilders than jay in my opinion. I am a fan of jay but many on this list were better than him
The King Coleman, Easy victory, Lightweight baby!
Ain’t nothing but a peanut!
@@ddub5074 YEAH BUDDYYYYY!!!!
2:18 I know this isn’t the main focus but holy shit, I thought Kevin had the best shoulders but Ronnie is absolutely killing him. Ronnie is so great, his “okay” body parts were rivaling some of the best of others.
His delts often took over in the side chest
Ronnie's certainly has a bigger delts but kevin has a better shape imo
GOAT
So you take just one picture and make a conclusion ignoring hundreds more?
Ya Ronnie's muscle bellies on his abdomen.....like a biological frog.
Such an underrated channel, idk why you only have 50k subs, you deserve more dude. always look forward to every post you make. all love and more support for you Tom!
One of the best analysis I’ve seen for bodybuilding, with very good criteria.
Love the video, and love the result too! There were some parts where I disagreed with you... like some parts where I would have put more points for some, less for some on others, and that is exactly why this kind of exercice is very well done! Because if you keep adding metrics, the real GOAT will simply rise to its natural position. You can't argue against the whole chart!
This was by far the most broken down detailed video ever with the photo evidence during the ratings. Im super impressed. Also like how you ranked them by olympia wins. Nice work. Prob took a while to do this. Thank you!
Great analysis and the dashboard is really impressive. Even though there may be some who disagree, I strongly believe Ronnie Coleman is the "Greatest Of All Time"
This work is just simply underrated. Only a true bodybuilding fan would do this.
And the result was damn accurate .
Man I just wish you success . You gonna be way bigger than you are in days to come.
I'd like to see a video like this for the remaining Mr. Olympia winners - Franco, Samir, Dickerson, etc. I mean it wouldn't be a GOAT video of course, but it would be cool just to see what kind of scores they would get for a lot of these categories.
It would be called baby goats video.
You have been flying under the radar for way too long, Tom. Content like this is golden, really unparalleled by anything else bodybuilding out here! GREAT VIDEO! 👌🙏
Arnold Will Always Be The Goat Of Bodybuilding, The Goat Of Action Movies, The Goat Of One Liners. Deal With It!
The GOAT of showing up to contests out of shape.
If it wasn't for Arnold no one would ever empbrace bodybuilding
That doesnt make the goat....that makes it the best ambassador and promoter of the sport and thats great.
But that doesnt make it the best bodybuilder of all time
Your comprehensiveness is incredible. Love it!
I love all of the conditions taken in this ranking of bodybuilders because you know a lot of bodybuilders are gonna get points taken, like Ronnie Coleman and his horrible posing, or lack of leg muscles of the golden era guys, very complete ranking
I think many of the golden era guys had great leg development. Arnold had calves as good as his biceps and pecs.
Before you were about to comment on "Impact & influence" I thought that Arnold should get an 11. And sure enough - he did :)
Really nice job Tom. I first started following bbing in 1979 when I picked up a Muscle Builder Power with Robbie Robinson on the front. So, I have seen basically all the eras over the last 40 years. Most other channels are just regurgitating gossip and they really aren't students of the game with respect to truly assessing physiques and couldn't judge one out of a paper bag in reality.
This is the single most comprehensive bb GOAT comparison ever made. Thank you!!
After watching it, it didn't disappoint. I would say it's your ultimate video, to me, you're the best BB youtuber, you have best shape vids, contest reviews, best body parts, and creative vids like this, arnold is overrated, the ever controversial partial rep vid, the broscience defense vid as a follow up. Thanks a lot for the content. I also think ronnie is the GOAT, 98/99/01 arnold and 03 are peak mass and conditioning, with very few lacking body parts, and very freaky features.
You really did a great Job with Ranking all the different aspeks, awesome man!
Unbelievable effort mate. Well done.
Amazing video Tom! A great love letter to bodybuilding and I was waiting all day from work to watch this masterpiece!
Bodybuilders I wanna look like:
-Frank Zane
-Yeah that's it
arnold as well
Mike Menzer had the best body of all bodybuilders
pretty much. if i had to build a perfect human, thats almost exactly what i would make
@Casdom Domcas what?you mean the ninja turtles?
Cause your too weak to comprehend for Dorian and ronnie
This was entertaining as hell! Thank you for putting so much work into this
Man this video was nuts. Loved it. Only channel to bring this type of content. Also, as an English teacher, I love your diction, lol
I think even if you ask the bodybuilders to vote for a goat, Ronnie's name would still come out on top.
Great content as always. There is one big mistake though. If Arnold is an 11 for impact and influence, then all of them are 1 or less, more like 0,1 or less, it is either that or dont even put arnold on that category.
It is like comparing Michael Jackson or The Beatles to a local band from your hometown.
That's true I probably should've given him a 15 or 20 and scored the others normally lol
Which is why Arnolds the goat. Not technically the best, but the influence and cult of personality. Same as MJ. I'd take Bron 1st pick all time, but MJ is still the goat.
@@benjaminwilson8807 music is overly subjective, although bodybuilding is subjective its much more defined than music. being famous as a musician doesnt automatically mean youre a better musician, being famous as a bodybuilder doesnt mean hes the best bodybuilder.
He should lose a point or 2 for showing up at the 1980 in less than top shape. I think it hurt his reputation and hurt the sport far more than it helped.
Benjamin Wilson um mj is not the case here. he is clearly a more dominant, skillfull and mentally strong basketball player compared to bron who once gave up and made the big3. well bron has clearly more longevity than mj and he had his some dominant moments that could maybe be compared with mj's , but he cannot beat mj in terms of clear dominance in either as an individual or as a team. mj was dominant as an individual throughout his whole career except at the wizards, but what makes mj special is that he started from the bottom and leaded his team to grow up and build a dynasty. bron also started from the bottom and lead his team to grow up, but he gave it up and that makes the clear difference in terms of mental strength of the two players. if you want to claim bron is better because of his statlines based on his longevity, i say this is basketball not baseball. in baseball, yeah that claim is right but in basketball, already there is karim who beats the hell out of mj in longevity but still remains behind mj. mj is the goat because of his dominance(both individual and team), his skills, his mental toughness, and his influence. bron is clearly behind mj when you consider those things that are important for basketball goat not baseball goat.
Your breakdowns are always spot on and unbiased from what I can tell. Already looking forward to your next video!
This was a great video. Only thing I would change is make Olympia runner ups worth half the points or Olympias double. I would probably do making runner ups half the points because doubling it would be unfair since Arnold had many years where the title was just given to him or was unjustly given (1980) and Oliva also had a couple years where there was no competition. But jay cutler having a higher Olympia score than Ronnie is unfair once you consider the fact Ronnie has double his Olympia wins.
This is the best GOAT analysis in bodybuilding that I've seen. Well done sir!
Props for setting this up. Must have taken a lot of time and effort.
You deserve way more subs and views my man. Extremely detailed and informing. You are clearly passionate about the sport of Bodybuilding 💪 amen brotha 🙏
If you put the runner ups title you get that Jay was a better bodybuilder than Ronnie (when you combine the Olympia wins and runner ups title you get a score of 10-9) which is clearly not the case since most of those losses can be attributed to Ronnie
Hello tomn8ter, im watching u since u started your channel, back in the days when even the LUI was still around. U did a great video on the topic "GOAT" I love the approach and system u used. And the outcome is clear, Ronnie, no matter how you slice or dice it, with that many variables, and still Ronnie comes on top. Great to see your channel grow so much and your video's are keeping better.
This video was extremely enjoyable for me, many thanks for the analysis! My feeling is that Frank Zane was neglected from the standpoint of posing and impact, on the other hand Ronnie Coleman was overrated in the field of aesthetics (e.g. Dorian Yates had extremely good calves with no bubble gut and got only 6, Ronnie had bad calves and big gut, in spite of that he received 7) and individual routines (I really do not like his dancing style during posing). Thanks again!
Wow this is literally the coolest bodybuilding video I’ve watched in a long time!
i think Ronnie is one of the few (if not the only) who could win from from the generations above his. I know his reing was not so long ago, but putting in perpective, haney´s physique couldn´t beat dorian´s, dorian´s physique couldn´t beat ronnie´s, but ronnie´s best shape would beat jay and phill´s
TheLusianPopa Dorian has no chance beating Ronnie Coleman in 1999 and 2003. No chance.
Any versions of Dorian get destroyed by Ronnie’s 1998,1999 and 2001 ac
Yates wouldn't beat an 03 ronnie purely down to the fact that he would get outsized and outmuscled but remember that wasn't the best ronnie! He was massive, but so was his gut and his conditioning was non existent to that of 98! You can see it in his back, how watery it looks and his overall symmetry and proportions were awful. This isn't a knock on ronnie in anyway, he's one of my favourites.
Ronnies best physique was 98 and that's coming from ronnie himself, along with 01 Arnold Classic, purely down to the fact that they were almost identical physiques in terms of size, weight and conditioning. So if you put them against a 95 yates, yates would come out on top! 95 yates 257-60, ronnie in 98 was 247 I believe. Yates wins 4 out of the 7 compulsory poses..
(YATES WINS)
FLS
BLS
ST
A&T
(RONNIE WINS)
FDB
BDB
SC.
Ronnie in 98 was good enough for the win, but he barely beat an off flex wheeler. That physique is more beatable than an 03-05 one! Chris aceto said himself how impressive dorian was in person that year up close. Was like he had no skin his conditioning was that good A long with all that size and thickness too! I asked him in a recent Instagram live chat 95 yates vs 98 ronnie and he said yates beats him (just) so for the people that constantly go on about ronnie and the years he was apparently unbeatable, try backing it up with some kind of knowledge or criteria as to why.....
@TheLusianPopa its kind of subjective..but..no..Ronnie would destroy Yates.Legs alone would crush him.
@@scottish__beard8856The truth remain that Ronnie best version/year will beat any of Yates prime.😂
People mostly describe Ronnie as a different breed entirely when it comes to body building.
Ronnie look like a monster/beast😂.
An amazing video!! Truly well thought out and I’m sure took a lot of effort and time. Well worth the long video time and honestly a very accurate video! Awesome job Tomn8er!!
There should by a demerit for flaws such as bubble gut
Also gyno
There are- aesthetics
Very well explained, thoroughly analyzed and no bias at all. Great job Tom!
The problem I see is that every category counts the same. You can't have Olympias and Runner-ups to count the same.
Well obviously you can lol
An amazing scale, what a perfect way to place the guys! The reason I honour you this is simply because you are honest, yet bang on when judging my friend-)
Facts not emotions you speak honestly from, and I totally love it.
Thank you again my friend
Loved the video! I have always felt like Lee Haney was #2 but I can’t complain about him coming behind the Governator.
I couldn't stop watching. This was very interesting. Great work man.
This has ALWAYS been my exact ranking for all of these guys funny enough, kinda spooky
No doubt one of the best if not the best video you’ve done
Impressive work👏👏👏
My only critic is that someone like Haney (8 M.O. in a row) in the department of titles is at the bottom. You should have applied some kind of correction factorc for second places or minor titles.
In the 80's he was the number one star and influence by a mille.
On cover magazines for a decade every single Month.
And, by the way, something I do not think was represented properly in the influence department; He was the very first modern bodybuilder IMHO!
THANKS A LOT FOR THE VIDEO, TRULY ENJOYABLE!!!!!
I see Haney as the end of the Golden Era. Everything after him was mass monsters and bubble guts. People were dropping dead or coming close to dropping dead in the 90s from abusing diuretics.
great video. gotta love the Tomn8er!
Once you hit the Olympia with a bubble gut; you lost me. Just no excuse. Lee Haney is my choice; what an amazing physique from head to toe; not to mention the professionalism and class.
prewsky I am with you there sir. I had hoped Haney would fare better as he is such a class act and incredible physique. Ronnies bubble gut is super lame but I can respect the Tominator and how he got to this conclusion.
You only see the bubble gut when they are relax. You hardly ever see it in the mandatories. And tbh as a bodybuilder ronnie obv destroys haney, and has imo a better legacy than him. Haney had a weak line up and had weak legs compared to other BBs in his lineup. Nonetheless both are greats. Ronnie is the goat
Man I LOVE the thought you put into this content. Fantastic channel, thank you
Good effort man , Iam an Engineer and I would prefer if you could assign certain percentage for each catagory and the total at the end doesn’t exceed 100 , if the number in certain categories exceed the percentage intended, you just do a simple transfer to get the score out of the percentage that you assigned. This will give the importance of each category its true value since now some category are higher than they should be since they have many scoring raw. I hope you got my point. Thanks for your efforts. You are a special person.
I think you did a great job and that big Ron really did deserve it because he quite literally gave his life to the sport.
Arnold was not thick-waisted! He was wide-waisted. Indeed, when Arnold turned to the side, his waist damn near disappeared, making his upper body mass absolutely overwhelming and awe-inspiring.
Then you looked for leg muscularity but couldn’t find it
@@93Beefcake Pfffy, back then leg day was for losers!
Waist wide and legs small plus he had judging in his back pockets
You really nailed this one on the head, great work Tom!
Great video, I believe Olivia is the most overlooked champion of all time. Can you imagine how great he would have been with the training and nutrition of today? He was literally training in the dark ages and eating that way as well. Plus they didn’t really have a lot of posing info to refer to. He and Larry Scott were kinda of the pro bodybuilding pioneers. When you look at Olivia’s physique and realize it’s from the late 60’s it blows the mind how he developed it with such primitive equipment
Olivia had the best genetics of any bodybuilder and if he trained like Dorian and had the same mindset, he would've blown the doors of Arnold or Ronnie! His 28 in waist would've been even smaller at 27in and with Dorian's grainy conditioning he would've been unbeatable!!
Dont forget the steroids/hormons/peptide knowledge.
He lived in the era where even the pros only knew the bare minimum. Dbol+primo and that's it.
A bodybuilder of their age would have unparalelled conditioning hooked them up with some tren/mtren/mast etc
Oliva*
Great vid man! Loved the categories and breakdown . You have the best bodybuilding channel on TH-cam!
Great video man, keep 'em coming!
As a side note, it's a shame Ronnie destroyed his body being the best of all time... One could argue that it was the only way to do it, but the truth is we will never know, and I tend to perceive bodybuilding legends as someone like Arnold, Jay and Dorian, who gave it all at their prime, but knew how to pull back and stay healthy and inspiring.
Nah Ronnie could've mostly avoided it. His worst injuries occurred after he was already retired when he stubbornly refused to stop training like a maniac, even post-surgery. Dorian proved that it's possible to flip that switch back off.
Yes you should lose a few points if you spend your retirement in a wheelchair.
Phenomenal video man. probably my favorite video you've made. Analysis was awesome and I can see the amount of effort put into every number. Really hard video, but for the most part, I'm happy with about everything. great effort for this man
I'm glad to hear Sergio being talked about. Too often people think of him as the guy who lost to Arnold rather than the once-in-a-generation talent he was. His physique was way ahead of it's time. I think he's one of the few gifted enough that he would have stood out in any era.
This video is incredible. You out did yourself bro
Great list and hard to argue when you put it down clearly on your spreadsheet. Even though in my heart Lee Haney is the Goat, Great job
Realy good video and concept, dude. Most people don't realize how much time and effort you put into this video. You deserve a lot more subscribers. Next to RxMuscle, I'd say you rank at the top of bodybuilding channels. Coincidence? I think not. As you are Dave and probably the two smartest guys who cover this topic.
Much respect from Atlantic Canada.
Great Vid, Honestly U should replace the judges in the Mr O
Next vid: do one for the best 1 time Mr O, Samir, Dickerson, Shawn, and Brandon on this exact same format
Not a bad idea
Or best runner up that never won:Mentzer, Robinson, ferrigno, Gaspari, Ray, Levrone
Props to you man, excellent video with top quality content
As I feared when I saw the criteria this is partially an exercise in Dorian bashing.
He was the most dominant bodybuilder (with Ronnie). No one dominated his opponents mentally more than Dorian. How many times did Ronnie finish outside the top three? How mant times did Dorian?
Dorian' score for Impact and Influence is - forgive the strident language - a joke. He crashed onto the scene and every bodybuilder since Dorian looks like they do because of Dorian. That is influence, He has to score 9.
Dorian and Haney score 4 for Longevity? Oliva made a comeback after years in the wilderness and scores high. So if Haney made one appearance this year- regardless of his condition, would his longevity go up to 10? Decade long careers can't score 4. I think this proves you were 'relative' scoring against a Dexter baseline - he gets 10, so you suggest it's impossible to compete longer.
I'd have Dorian and Haney with several more points at the end in joint second.
It would be closer on my card....but it's hard to argue with Ronnie as the winner. From any competitive standpoint, the best Ronnie beats the best everyone else. He edges Yates and Lee. Who would just edge Phil - Phil's best physique maybe pushes Ron hard, but there's too many factors against him to be top three.
But hey, if we're talking about real longevity and greatness off stage as well as on it....
Ronnie's body is destroyed. Dorian is a polarising character with weak biceps. Phil turned up for three years with a bubble gut and some people just hate that guy. Arnold had some gifted wins and some weak ass body parts.
But Lee Haney? Lee is one of the happiest and healthiest 60 year olds on the planet. He is universally admired for his aesthetic yet huge frame and balanced, ripped physique. He is universally admired for the intelligent and generous ambassadorial role he takes for the sport. He has eight Sandows and only one of them was even close. No robberies or questionable decisions. No controversies. Gaspari (who took 2nd to him 3 times and 3rd once) and even Dorian (who beat him in the mandatories in 91) have never even hinted or suggested they should have beaten him. You may argue it was a weak era but he won by such margins it was total dominance.....by a real gentleman.
Tot up your points if you must. On a stage in peak condition Ronnie would probably win.
But the greatest in my mind?
Never off. Always classy. Aesthetic as fuck. Healthy as hell. Lee Haney.
Your last line really sums it up for me as well. Lee Haney is such a gentleman and true ambassador of the sport. His consistency was frightening and he really owned the 1980s. Physique-wise I think he's the best of both worlds....lots of mass while retaining aesthetics that ANY man would be envious of. Any Mr. Olympia after him with the possible exception of DJ, has had to my eyes, something about their physique that was entirely unappealing and thus, less Olympia-like to me. (bubble guts, blocky waists, TOO big of a back, etc)
I love this video though and the effort Tom put into it. Regards
I agree. Great video and for the most part I agree with outcome but to me Lee Haney is best combo of size, symmetry and conditioning. Being a class act goes a long way in my book too!
Lisa Clark
Lee Haney was the last of the Golden era bodybuilders. It's been all downhill since then.
@@kurtvonfricken6829 I think that's a bit harsh, As I've said his place in the world of bodybuilding - healthy and ambassadorial greatly contributes to his overall status and 8 wins is statistically the joint best. But to say everyone since then is worse is a subjective view. I admire aesthetics but you can't deny Dorian's impact - only one year did he have what you could call a bubble gut. In 93 he presented perhaps the greatest package ever seen. No one before or since has produced that granite hard conditioning and back detail at that bodyweight. None of the mass monsters could match his conditioning.....and none of the aesthetes could match his mass. Jay Cutler wasn't as freaky big Ronnie or as conditioned as Dorian but in 2009 he produced a ohysique with no weak points. 270lbs of perfect proportion. Heath in 2011 and 2013, before the bubble gut, delivered a roundness and fullness in every muscle group that was unprecedented in competition shape. And all through the 90s and 2000s Flex Wheeler, Shawn Ray and Dexter presented full, aesthetic physiques thaf were more complete than Haney's - better limbs.
Lee is, all things considered, the greatest bodybuilder but that doesn't necessarily mean he had the greatest body......even I acknowledge that part is totally subjective.
Mark Heywood
I'm not saying the competitors themselves are worse. The standards are worse. When someone under 200 lbs. ( actually now the minimum seems to be 250 lbs) is totally uncompetitive and someone can win with a bubblegut I think the situation is out of hand. It's what the judges reward that defines the sport.
Very good arguments and presented in a simple way. Great video. I agree with the most of your points and the final order is pretty accurate
If someone thinks Ronnie ain't GOAT . As Ronnie would put it "he's smocking crack"
Shitty calves, nasty gut, poor triceps separation. Not the GOAT in my eyes.
@@fdu6 because of calves ronnie isnt goat WHAT ? hhahahahahhahahahah
@@kryptonianstrength8461 did I say ONLY calves?
In some years Coleman calves are decent, triceps are good separated and big, just high insertion. Yes he has gut some year, like almost all bodybuilders
Dorian Yates
The best, and most objective and thorough BB channel on youtube
At least jay was more aesthetic than ronnie, having almost no symptoms of bubble gut
That's mostly why I gave him the edge lol
@@Tomn8er but you should put jay in ahead of ronnie in aesthetics
Btw nice work done
Really agreed with your decision
Keep it up!!!
Riffat Islam young Ronnie was more aesthetic than any version of Jay. The version in 1998 was probably the most aesthetic mass monster that has ever graced the stage.
@@heimtime_lifting and 2009 version of jay is the most aesthetic of any mass monster
RONNIE was only aesthetic in his early 2 or 3 olympia wins
Jay always looked more aesthetic except 07 and 08
@@riffatislam2003 no he didnt, jay always looked blocky, his v taper wasnt a pronounce as ronnie
I knew that this was gonna be good before I even watched it. Great video
The Idea of this list is pretty great and I almost agree completely with the way you judged the respective categories, but one thing that doesn't really make sense in my eyes is that the points for 2nd place olympia are 1:1 with 1st place olympia placings. So Jay has the edge here with 10 points in total even though he only actually won 4 times. I would have given it something like a x0.5 or x0.7 multiplicator.
Себастьян Фишер This.
This is quality content in its purest form! I just simply love the videos man!
I can live with those rankings ! Although I personally feel that Arnold had a little too much influence which benefitted himself in accumulating his 7 Titles, he makes up for it by having influenced the sport more than anyone ever.
Everyone has had their share of criticisms and compliments, with some more than others, which more or less cancels themselves out.
It’s funny, because if you were to do another one of these videos with the bodybuilders who never won a Mr.O Title, they’d almost all come from the Yates/Coleman era. The consistency of the competition back then was simply spectacular. And this is most likely why the 90’s is seen as the best era ever.
Cheers
True, arnold is lucky he had alot of influence
@Jojo1113 We'll never forget what the IFBB done to Nubret that one year.. Politics were definitely at play during Arnolds reign.
I lost interest after the1980-1981 Olympia contests. I believe the 90s might have seen the best competitors because of the drugs. Weren’t more people dying right after competitions back then? I think people might have wised up but perhaps not.
Kurt Vonfricken Well, Arnold’s era wasn’t much better than the era’s that came after. Read this article. It’s unreal.
www.chaosandpain.com/tips/just-how-badly-do-you-want-to-win-not-as-badly-as-pete-grymkowski-did/
I’d say the recreational drugs are the biggest killers. Although, diuretics and insulin are also not great if you don’t have a full time personal doctor.
People did whatever worked for them back then. It’s just that nowadays, there’s more things that work. It really boils down to that.
It seems the top bodybuilders all stay relatively healthy after they retire. It’s the bodybuilders who push the limits too far yet can’t achieve their goals that go off the deep end.
@Jojo1113 a very controversial win 1980, and pretty gifted a sandow. Yeah he deserved. Everybody likes him bc he is a moviestar
Great video man, I enjoyed it from start to end.
No way the top 5 goat that came from this analysis is also my top 5 bodybuilders in the SAME order.
Not spoiling for those reading comments while watching!
Lmfao he was acting a fool raising the roof! I had to replay that i burst out laughing.
What’s amazing about body building is it’s almost always going to be about the subjective impact the athletes and their physiques have on us, the fans. We’re all into the sport because we can find a physique that speaks to what WE find aesthetic, what WE find impressive, and what WE want to emulate. This discussion of the GOAT should not be about heated debate, but a celebration of a sport that purely exists to empower others
Nice video dude. Thanks for the effort.
Before I would even start watching this video I would say Arnold Schwarzenegger is the goat, after watching it I may change my opinion🤣😂
Amazing video. Anything where Ronnie comes out on top makes my day!