Hi, I work in the xmer industry, FR3 oil have always low megger and PF reading than mineral oil and if we dry on the oven it goes worst, what may cause this?
Hi @itamorales6580, Great question. When testing insulation systems utilizing natural esters like FR3, it is important to keep in mind that the chemical makeup of the fluid is different from traditional mineral oil, which in turn yields different test results. The behavior of the oxygen atom in natural esters tends to make the fluid more polar* than mineral oil, resulting in a higher dissipation factor-which also increases with higher temperatures. While the dissipation factor of natural esters typically tests higher than mineral oil, you will also find that natural esters withstand AC breakdown voltage a little better than mineral oil. Natural esters tend to be more water soluble than mineral oils, and the amount of moisture they can sustain without any breakdown in dielectric strength is also higher (compare mineral oils’ water saturation level of 55 ppm at ambient temperature with natural esters’ level of 1100 ppm). Typically, a moisture content of 400 ppm is the maximum allowable level in transformers for continued service with natural esters. That value will be much lower for any type of refined distilled based crude oil. One helpful rule of thumb would be to make sure your testing standards allow for these characteristic differences (compare the values in ASTM D3487 and IEEE C57.106 for mineral oil against ASTM D6871 and IEEE C57.147 for natural esters). Another helpful point to consider is that insulation resistance and insulation power factor tests are not typically used as routine factory tests for establishing pass/fail criteria on distribution transformers (see Table 17 of IEEE C57.12.00). This means most of the time you may be flying blind with no pre-existing test from the factory to measure any field tests against-which in turn makes both tests more about meeting a particular absolute value across the board (which can present some challenges at times-see Notes 1, 2 & 3 of Table 4, IEEE C57.12.90-2021, p.67) Cargill has also written an article you may find helpful as well. (www.cargill.com/doc/1432076502315/r2100-transformer-power-factor-tds.pdf) *Referring to the dielectric medium’s response to an electromagnetic field. When we talk about one fluid being more polar than another, we are simply referring to a dielectric medium’s tendency to shift slightly in response to the presence of an electromagnetic field (since current will not flow through an insulator, the insulator’s molecules will instead shift in response to the electromagnetic field respectively-positively charged ends to negatively charged ends and vice versa).
what effect if the transformer with mineral oil already used since beginning, but now we change with FR3 oil, it will give negative impact or not ? please advice
Hi @RamziFirdaus, Mineral oil and FR3 are miscible, so there is no negative effect to refilling with FR3. FR3 can offer a few additional benefits that mineral oil does not offer such as a higher flashpoint and biodegradability. Cargill has some helpful info on this here: www.cargill.com/doc/1432076502266/r2040-retrofill-guide-power-tds.pdf
Hi@@MaddoxTransformer , thanks for your answer, another question, how about is the inside material of transformer, like the paper isolation, gasket, seal, coil, etc. if the beginning the design for mineral oil, but now we are using with natural oil.. is safe or not the material ? or have possibility the make short the limit use of the material, for example the paper, seal gasket, etc, will be more fast broken, because all this time using mineral but now we are change with the natural oil. also how about the impact if when we are changed the transformer mineral oil not clean very well (maybe still have a little mineral oil in the inside / not hundred percent clean from the mineral oil and off course will be mix with the new oil natural). please advice..
@@RamziFirdaus Numerous studies have shown that FR3 can potentially extend the life of the paper insulation in the transformer. This is one reason why some companies push to retrofill mineral oil filled units with FR3. If you are going to pursue a retrofill with FR3, we would typically recommend changing the pressure relief device (valve) to something compatible with a higher viscosity fluid. The disadvantage to leaving behind a significant amount of mineral oil when retrofilling with FR3 is that it’s less flammable classification may be compromised or reduced.
Hii..@@MaddoxTransformer i got information, the transformer with FR3 oil can't use the silica gel, because have contaminant with air will impact the viscosity and damage the insulation, is it true or not ? I am worried if is it true, because all of transformer with silica gel already replace the oil from mineral become FR3 natural oil. please advice
😆 Whenever your transformer check engine oil light comes on, typically every 5,000 to 7,500 miles. In all seriousness, for transformers, we recommend taking a transformer DGA test. This test is the most reliable and accurate method for determining the internal health of oil-filled transformers. Check out this article if you would like to learn more: www.maddoxtransformer.com/resources/articles/transformer-maintenance-dissolved-gas-analysis-and-how-to-pull-an-oil-sample
Did a oil sample here in one off the biggest LNG projects in Plaquimines which is the PLNG the process was very easy the hardest part for me was the documentation and they require to do a oil sample every month according to this jobsite.
Hi, I work in the xmer industry, FR3 oil have always low megger and PF reading than mineral oil and if we dry on the oven it goes worst, what may cause this?
Hi @itamorales6580,
Great question.
When testing insulation systems utilizing natural esters like FR3, it is important to keep in mind that the chemical makeup of the fluid is different from traditional mineral oil, which in turn yields different test results. The behavior of the oxygen atom in natural esters tends to make the fluid more polar* than mineral oil, resulting in a higher dissipation factor-which also increases with higher temperatures. While the dissipation factor of natural esters typically tests higher than mineral oil, you will also find that natural esters withstand AC breakdown voltage a little better than mineral oil.
Natural esters tend to be more water soluble than mineral oils, and the amount of moisture they can sustain without any breakdown in dielectric strength is also higher (compare mineral oils’ water saturation level of 55 ppm at ambient temperature with natural esters’ level of 1100 ppm). Typically, a moisture content of 400 ppm is the maximum allowable level in transformers for continued service with natural esters. That value will be much lower for any type of refined distilled based crude oil.
One helpful rule of thumb would be to make sure your testing standards allow for these characteristic differences (compare the values in ASTM D3487 and IEEE C57.106 for mineral oil against ASTM D6871 and IEEE C57.147 for natural esters). Another helpful point to consider is that insulation resistance and insulation power factor tests are not typically used as routine factory tests for establishing pass/fail criteria on distribution transformers (see Table 17 of IEEE C57.12.00). This means most of the time you may be flying blind with no pre-existing test from the factory to measure any field tests against-which in turn makes both tests more about meeting a particular absolute value across the board (which can present some challenges at times-see Notes 1, 2 & 3 of Table 4, IEEE C57.12.90-2021, p.67)
Cargill has also written an article you may find helpful as well. (www.cargill.com/doc/1432076502315/r2100-transformer-power-factor-tds.pdf)
*Referring to the dielectric medium’s response to an electromagnetic field. When we talk about one fluid being more polar than another, we are simply referring to a dielectric medium’s tendency to shift slightly in response to the presence of an electromagnetic field (since current will not flow through an insulator, the insulator’s molecules will instead shift in response to the electromagnetic field respectively-positively charged ends to negatively charged ends and vice versa).
Hi, "As far as I can see, FR3 oil is directly filled with an IBC, how can the oil have a high breakdown voltage.
what effect if the transformer with mineral oil already used since beginning, but now we change with FR3 oil, it will give negative impact or not ? please advice
Hi @RamziFirdaus,
Mineral oil and FR3 are miscible, so there is no negative effect to refilling with FR3. FR3 can offer a few additional benefits that mineral oil does not offer such as a higher flashpoint and biodegradability. Cargill has some helpful info on this here: www.cargill.com/doc/1432076502266/r2040-retrofill-guide-power-tds.pdf
Hi@@MaddoxTransformer ,
thanks for your answer,
another question, how about is the inside material of transformer, like the paper isolation, gasket, seal, coil, etc. if the beginning the design for mineral oil, but now we are using with natural oil.. is safe or not the material ? or have possibility the make short the limit use of the material, for example the paper, seal gasket, etc, will be more fast broken, because all this time using mineral but now we are change with the natural oil. also how about the impact if when we are changed the transformer mineral oil not clean very well (maybe still have a little mineral oil in the inside / not hundred percent clean from the mineral oil and off course will be mix with the new oil natural). please advice..
@@RamziFirdaus
Numerous studies have shown that FR3 can potentially extend the life of the paper insulation in the transformer. This is one reason why some companies push to retrofill mineral oil filled units with FR3. If you are going to pursue a retrofill with FR3, we would typically recommend changing the pressure relief device (valve) to something compatible with a higher viscosity fluid. The disadvantage to leaving behind a significant amount of mineral oil when retrofilling with FR3 is that it’s less flammable classification may be compromised or reduced.
@@MaddoxTransformer do you have reference about PRV ?
please share
Hii..@@MaddoxTransformer i got information, the transformer with FR3 oil can't use the silica gel, because have contaminant with air will impact the viscosity and damage the insulation, is it true or not ? I am worried if is it true, because all of transformer with silica gel already replace the oil from mineral become FR3 natural oil. please advice
In Kenya they steal it for cooking french fries and chicken 😂
So how many miles does my transformer have to go through before I do a oil change? 😂
😆 Whenever your transformer check engine oil light comes on, typically every 5,000 to 7,500 miles.
In all seriousness, for transformers, we recommend taking a transformer DGA test. This test is the most reliable and accurate method for determining the internal health of oil-filled transformers. Check out this article if you would like to learn more: www.maddoxtransformer.com/resources/articles/transformer-maintenance-dissolved-gas-analysis-and-how-to-pull-an-oil-sample
Did a oil sample here in one off the biggest LNG projects in Plaquimines which is the PLNG the process was very easy the hardest part for me was the documentation and they require to do a oil sample every month according to this jobsite.