APEX Gaming PCs: apexgamingpcs.com/products/growling-sidewinder Check out the Merch Store: growling-sidewinder.creator-spring.com So as always please keep in mind the F-35 is simply a mod and does not represent the classified nature of the aircraft, and we make fun of Fat Amy but she's not designed to fight like this so given that fact I think it did decently well against one of the best dogfighters of all time, big thank you to Shotgun for flying the F-35 for us. See you in the next one guys, Much Love.
@@christopherjpfaff8460 not very entertaining. the F-16 pilot would constantly be checking his radar, unable to find anything, and then he'd suddenly get an RWR warning and die.
if a BVR fight does ever happen, you wont see anything until you suddenly get an RWR warning and die. stealth aircraft bvr doesnt seem too great for content lmao
An F-35 vs F-16 BVR fight with the F-35 using only internal weapons bays would be a massively different story. The F-35 would shit all over the F-16 in a BVR fight. This is to be expected as BVR is exactly what the F-35 was built for when it comes to air to air engagements. That’s not to say an F-16 couldn’t defeat an F-35 in a BVR fight, but it would be defensive the entire time and struggle to get a lock to return fire. It would only really win after closing to within a few miles of the F-35 and still would require the F-35 to mess up and wind up in a dogfight situation
Yep, the F-16 here is flying clean - and that isn't how it would fly in any actual combat condition. It also ignores the experience pilots in Red Flag had when flying the F-35 against just about everyone: they dominated. I'm with you, I think this was a really unfair set-up.
@@a24396 The distinction everybody forgets: how an aircraft is represented in DCS is not how that aircraft actually flies. Canada didn't pick the F-35 to replace their Hornets because they suddenly didn't care about dogfighting, after all...
That was pretty cool when Shotgun managed to glide his already dead bird long enough to get a few rounds off on you before his bird totally stalled and had to bail. That pilot did a really awesome job, especially considering what he was up against.
No shade on Shotgun, none at all. That level of flying is why I want to see GS fly the Panther/Fat Amy. I want to see GS push it to the limit in BVR and dogfighting. I want that turn by turn breakdown of what's going on in their heads from the F-35's perspective!
The f-35 was designed to not be seen but to be able to give situational awareness to everybody else and also to be used as a strike weapon. I think everybody in the comments knows this. Like GS said it can still fight if it has to but it does not want to lol
@@NisseOhlsen I've wondered this myself. Australia has also gone with f-35's, and i wonder what we will use in conjunction with it, because i can't imagine they will be effective by themselves
@@NisseOhlsen the F-35 is a dominant BVR fighter which is how most modern air conflict happens. And as Growling mentioned during the last fight, modern dogfights use missiles not guns.
Have lived next to F-16s for 30 years, F-35s have been showing up lately. Because they are so much louder I can always tell when the F-35s are up. No complaints, March ARB is a great neighbor and we get free airshows 😁
Same here in San Antonio, Texas. We have the Lonestar Gunfighters fly over my shop every day. There have been a few F-35's fly in and they are really loud.
A combat loaded F-35 would annihilate a combat loaded viper in a dogfight due to the fact that the F-35 carries its armaments internally. These gun only dogfights in clean configurations don’t really mean anything in terms of real world application. Still very entertaining to watch though! It’s just kinda disappointing when people make conclusions about the f-35 from videos like this.
Im disagree. If for some reason you stuck in dogfight and You fighting for your live. You push button to drop all heavy stuff, then kill opponent and go back home.
@@MaciejRM the point he’s making is with both planes loaded with weapons the F35 is still stealthy and very difficult to detect. It can see the enemy from a very long way away (from horizon to horizon) passively and only use its active radar to lock a weapon on to the target and fire it to minimise detection. Your enemy would barely realise you’re there before been taken out with a missile.
Luckily for F35 pilots, the chances are pretty slim to get into a turning fight with vipers (or, more realistically, something like Fulcrums etc.) US Air Force claims a 20-1 kill ratio against older non-stealthy Viper types in simulated fights (Red Flag.) Love these videos! I watch every one of them. This is my favorite DCS Chanel hands down (I don’t even play, I just love military aviation 😊)
@@daltonv5206 its 178-0 bvr, it was originally a 16-1and now it's a 20-1 for dogfights. The 78 is just a hearsay mix up from the bvr number. In terms of air maneuverability, the F-35A is superior to the F-16, people just seem to never believe it
Hey I think that the flight model underrepresents the F-35 . Yes it is nowhere close to the F-16 in the rate fight but the AoA performance of the F-35 is way better than you think . I suggest watching the F-35 demo you can see it can pull a massive amount of AoA . It wouldn't really change the outcome of the fight but the playing field would be more even . Any way great video .
F-35As have been turning F-16s into strafe rags in BFM for years now. Neither of these aircraft are modeled correctly in DCS. The F-16 has far better performance in STR, and the F-35A has better performance in AOA, ITR, STR, and climb rate. The first thing I noticed was how freaking fast an F-35 can climb. Keep in mind I’ve watched the F-16 from its infancy as the YF-16 up through the CCIP Vipers and every Block in between at the USAF AFFTC at Edwards AFB. The Dutch dominated Nellis AFB Aggressors for a week straight, while they were carrying GBUs in the weapons bays. F-16s started out with 2x370 Gal tanks, ACMI, and CATM-9s on Day 1, then got dog raped every set. Came back the next day with 300Gal centerline, still got humiliated. Towards the end of the week, they stripped down entirely just to ACMI and CATM-9 to even it out a little, but still weren’t able to break over 1:1, and remained inferior. The Dutch were high hour Viper drivers themselves who converted, but they said they learned how to exploit the many advantages the F-35A has over the F-16 in BFM, so the F-16s were just left behind. The fact they were doing it while carrying bombs really rubbed it in. This DCS modeling is just not representative of the actual performance characteristics.
@@LRRPFco52 yep that's the issue I have with alot of modern mods ect that are cool to mess with but you have to take what you get with a grain of salt but not many people do that.
@@outwardpanicjoe8950 If they want a realistic flight engine for the F-16C Block 50, they need to increase the STR by at least 7deg/sec. For the F-35, combine the flight model of a baby Hornet with a turbo-charged Viper.
@@LRRPFco52 for the f35 I'm not sure if it's possible as mods are normally based on another paid moduel I think and mods just don't have access to most if the tool to make alot of the needed changes anyway. As far as I know.
The F/A-18 as well, you can still find 70s-80s era videos on TH-cam of all the controversy surrounding the Hornets while they were in development and early deployment. Turns out fighter aircraft are not simple machines and the DOD wants to make sure they get it right even if that tacks two years and a few bucks on top of projections.
F-16 wasn’t really criticized for performance because it had hot rod performance. It was criticized for its safety and mishap rate. I was there from the YF-16 days to the present front and center at the USAF Flight Test Center, and we were involved with its development later on with Block 30/40 A2A capes expansion after it had matured. We didn’t know it at the time, but we had lost 143 F-16s with 71 fatalities in its first 10 years of service from 1978-1988. We got involved with F-16C/D Block 30/40 in 1987.
@@deathdragon2283 F-15 was pretty well-received. The only people who criticized weren’t really heard at the time, but their idiotic comments have become known since by the few that care to look for them.
When you played the slowmo replay of the first kill, and I saw the cannon shells just ripping apart that wing and tail end of the F-35, I instantly though, "Gonna need some flex tape for this one."
Just saw two F-15's practice dogfighting yesterday while out fishing in the Owens Valley Calif. looked like they were doing figure 8's and the noise was tremendous
Unfortunately we will all need to wait for a serious updated to the F-35 (family) flight model. This slapped togehter monstrosity is still rockin' a HUD. And because of the lack of a more accurate flight modeling the F-35 can't fight its fight which is in the slow speed arena much like the F-18.
Have you done any BVR content with the F-35? I'd be curious to see it perform in the environment it was designed for, even though we don't know it's true specs.
I'd like to see the same matchup but start at BVR. See if the F-16 can get to dogfighting to start with. Or if the F-35 would take down the F-16 using its advantages, ie: stealth. No rules. Missles, guns, at range etc. Whatever you need to do. Like if it was 'real'.
Not to mention the F-16 already presses human endurance to the max. That’s the one wild card in these fights - pilot endurance - that you can’t simulate (yet 😀). Great content.
Try this as an F-35 tactic (I'd really like to see if it's possible)... go into the merge at full throttle, exit the merge into the sun (to combine the sun and the F-35's IR reduction), extend to the point where she's BVR, and make the fight her own... yes, that's not a "dogfight" but then again dogfighting is a 4th-and-lower generation idea.
I do kinda doubt if the sun and IR reduction will be enough to extend away that far without anything succesfully tracking it. But if that _is_ possible then that would be an interesting idea.
You can't really extend with F35 though, it's slower than most fighters of today. Also I don't know how stealthy the back is, engine is quite a bit larger surface than F-22's engines.
@@republicofustio4381 I'm not so sure. Just because someone jumped the gun doesn't mean the gun never fired. And remember, with the F-4 it was an IFF problem. The people who thought it would only fight BVR didn't realize that there would be a lot of situations where the plane needs to visually IFF. These days even if visual IFF is needed, it can be done with the targeting pod at BVR ranges, and the F-35 essentially has a Sniper XR built in so it can do it even without even compromising its RCS.
I think this fight might have been more interesting without the F-16 and F-35 in "clean" configurations (2 Aim-9, nothing else), and instead had full weapons (6xAim-120) loads going into the merge. Theoretically, this would drastically hinder the F-16, with significant aerodynamic loads more than the F-35, and might make this fight a little closer. Just food for thought.
It bugs me whenever GS says “Fat Amy.” Doing a google search, I can’t find any conclusive data to back up pilots calling the F-35 this nickname. It sounds, though, like USAF pilots are calling it ‘Panther’, Marines calling it ‘Velociraptor’, and Navy calling it ‘Reaper’. Given the F-35’s capabilities, any one of those three names seem more plausible and fitting; I wonder if ‘Fat Amy’ originated from internet circles who have sought to mock the aircraft?
Hey GS. Thank you for playing so much with the Viper. I'm a huge fan of the Viper. Please make more, but also. You should play an aircraft you like ofcourse. All bout' your enjoyment. Love you man. Keep it up!
@@pieface6421 agreed. We've only really seen Fat Amy dogfight, which is the one thing it's supposed to *avoid.* a BVR fight would finally do poor Amy some justice.
I know this has been said before but could you try this exact same fight but with other stores on the F-16? I wonder if having the extra drag of AIM-120's and pylons would neutralize the advantage since the F-35 can keep most of its weapons internal.
Even a slick Viper will not be dominant against F-35As with equal pilots. This has been proven since no later than 2017. The Dutch told about their experiences fighting F-16 aggressors for a week straight, and they humiliated them each day, while carrying bombs inside the bays. After they demonstrated superior exchange ratios in BFM, they would go off to the training areas to live drop GBUs on ground targets to get maximum training value. F-16s guys who weren’t sure prior to that had their doubts erased quickly.
@@mayne242 AIM-120s can't be jettisoned. They're on LAUs. Nothing from stations 1, 2, 5L, 5R, 8, or 9 can be jettisoned and station 5 normally has an ECM pod, which can't be jettisoned either. When you hit the E-JETT, it only punches off 3, 4, 6, 7, which is generally bombs and the 2x 370gal EFTs. F-16 in combat configuration is a bit of a pig, even post E-JETT. You start to see why F-35A is what it is because of the draggy and piggish nature of the combat-configured Viper.
It can, if you look up videos like F-35 vs F-16 you'll see comparison videos and it'll show the F-35 can keep up very well, especially since it's limited to 7g's in most cases
DCS has no concept of how modern control systems work, it's all based on old school ideas of "I pull the stick back by x and the stabiliators rotate by y degrees". Modern control systems are extraordinarily complicated and use all available controls surfaces in ways that would be almost impossible to coordinate manually, but as a result you can get vastly better performance.
After the F-35 got crushed in the Dogfight I would love to see it in a BVR environment or a FOX 2 fight against the Viper. We should give Fat Amy a chance to put herself in a better light after this🤣
The gunfight favors the Viper but the BVR fight favors the F-35. With AIM-9X Block Twos, the F-35 really doesn't need to turn in order to shoot. Another thing the F-35 can do that the Viper can't is make full use of the AIM-120D due to the longer range of its radar.
How is that whenever I think of an Idea of what two planes would be like in a dogfight , you ALWAYS have a vid released mere hours before I search it , love these vids
It would be interesting to see some rounds where opponent has an advantage. Like you accidentally spotted a stealth fighter behind or you are lower and slower.
Every time "Fat Amy" gets shot down in a vid like this, I imagine the victorious F-16 landing and when the pilot removes her helmet it's revealed to be Beca (Anna Kendrick) with a big smirk on her face. 'Pitch' Perfect has a whole new meaning in dogfighting...
When the F-35 first arrived in the UK, we didn't even see fit to grace it with a cute name, like 'Fat Amy'. The Typhoon is a Tiffie, the Tornado is the Tonka................The F-15 is 'Dave'..........or if you are talking about the carrier variant, 'The Wheelie Bin'.
The F-35 is definitely not a plane you want to send in as an interceptor. You go wing side with a Mig to say hi, you might as well kiss your rear goodbye.
I don’t mean to complain, because I love your videos, and I think the dogfighting has a place. But with ALL of these panes I really want to see more realistic fights of them hunting each other, not merging.
yes sir, if you don't see that kind of video its due to limitations of the SIM or the Mod itself. When those capabilities become available we will deff do those videos also.
Canuck here. I was in FB group Gripens for Canada. But here we are. So I watch how the UK Meteor missile integration is going (2030 sound fair?). Replacement engine, likely same, to make all that Block 4/ TR3 work. I'm actually kind of glad there is no reasonable chance of on-time delivery with central fuselage production chokepoint. I love the 2030 F-35A. But that is not what we ordered...
Yes, it actually is. It's a multirole fighter just like the F-16. Air superiority and dogfighting is baked into its core design. It enjoys a 16-1 win loss in dogfighting alone at Red Flag, and it is also in the defensive role, so aggressor pilots in the F-16, F-15, F-18, Typhoon, and other nato fighter aircraft have the initial advantage. Flight control software limited its maneuverability and maximum thrust during testing phases to prevent airframe stress. It has since been removed
@@saltyfloridaman7163 It's not a “dogfighter.” It wins because it uses its stealth and advanced sensor suite to make sure the other planes don't get to the merge. Its mission is SEAD and DEAD.
Great stuff! Could you possibly do some more Apache videos, though? They are fascinating in their own way, all up close and personal with AA missiles, and AT missiles, and guns, and cannon rounds, and arrows :P.
In the 35’s defence, in a straight up turning dogfight, there are few if any fighters than can beat the Viper. But as should be apparent, thats not what the F-35 is built to do, its meant to attack targets and kill enemy fighters before it ever gets to the merge.
I would just like to let you know as being a member of the Canadian air force that our government has scraped the acquisition of the F-35, due to cost and we are supposed to be acquiring the retired British Eurofighter
What might be interesting is to test If the intended method of fighting for an aircraft actually works. For instance could have fat Amy fired one missile and run away...
The F-35 is a node on a network and is akin to an AWACS giving high situational awareness. The F-15EX is a dump truck meaning that it can haul a lot of missiles. Push the F-15EX out front, radar off, with the F-35 sending fire control data.
For one the software and lifted restrictions make the F35 a better fight in close. I do believe one thing missing is whether DCS has accounted for the sensors and that pilot missle wise dies not have to be pointing at the target. The helmet allows for off high shots.
@@BullGator-kd6ge I don't know if you'd even want to do that with the F-35B, you're doing hundreds of knots and all of a sudden you open the doors for the lift fan? That's like raising the mast on a sub while it's doing 20 knots, it'll rip the things off.
I feel like the F-35 is NATOs way of saying “If you can’t beat this, you don’t deserve hegemony” and I don’t believe the concept around which it was designed will hold water in any prolonged conflict with a near-peer adversary.
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So as always please keep in mind the F-35 is simply a mod and does not represent the classified nature of the aircraft, and we make fun of Fat Amy but she's not designed to fight like this so given that fact I think it did decently well against one of the best dogfighters of all time, big thank you to Shotgun for flying the F-35 for us. See you in the next one guys, Much Love.
F35 is stealth and it use long range missiles. That is different vehicle.
Pls try mig 29 over Serbia during NATO offesnive in 1999, against f15 or f16
BVR f16 vs f35? I want to see where/how the f35 is/could be dangerous.
@@christopherjpfaff8460 not very entertaining. the F-16 pilot would constantly be checking his radar, unable to find anything, and then he'd suddenly get an RWR warning and die.
Just call it Schumer...everyone will get the joke.
Need to see the F-35 in a BVR.
if a BVR fight does ever happen, you wont see anything until you suddenly get an RWR warning and die. stealth aircraft bvr doesnt seem too great for content lmao
Gotta think that’s what it was made for
You can't see F-35 in BVR.
Good idea
@Dartgame 340 the f22 actually dominated in other vids.
The F-35 with internal stores vs a combat loaded F-16 would be a different story, especially in a one circle fight.
An F-35 vs F-16 BVR fight with the F-35 using only internal weapons bays would be a massively different story. The F-35 would shit all over the F-16 in a BVR fight. This is to be expected as BVR is exactly what the F-35 was built for when it comes to air to air engagements.
That’s not to say an F-16 couldn’t defeat an F-35 in a BVR fight, but it would be defensive the entire time and struggle to get a lock to return fire. It would only really win after closing to within a few miles of the F-35 and still would require the F-35 to mess up and wind up in a dogfight situation
thats exactly what i what i was about to post. comparing them in a clean config is really under selling what the 35 can do.
Yep, the F-16 here is flying clean - and that isn't how it would fly in any actual combat condition.
It also ignores the experience pilots in Red Flag had when flying the F-35 against just about everyone: they dominated.
I'm with you, I think this was a really unfair set-up.
@@a24396 The distinction everybody forgets: how an aircraft is represented in DCS is not how that aircraft actually flies. Canada didn't pick the F-35 to replace their Hornets because they suddenly didn't care about dogfighting, after all...
Reality>DCS
Shotgun might not be winning but there's no doubt he's an excellent pilot
That was pretty cool when Shotgun managed to glide his already dead bird long enough to get a few rounds off on you before his bird totally stalled and had to bail. That pilot did a really awesome job, especially considering what he was up against.
No shade on Shotgun, none at all. That level of flying is why I want to see GS fly the Panther/Fat Amy. I want to see GS push it to the limit in BVR and dogfighting. I want that turn by turn breakdown of what's going on in their heads from the F-35's perspective!
@@icebolt0864 I'd like to see that too!! 👍
@@geedub7912 Me three! 😎 👍
The f-35 was designed to not be seen but to be able to give situational awareness to everybody else and also to be used as a strike weapon. I think everybody in the comments knows this. Like GS said it can still fight if it has to but it does not want to lol
Yes, but we are a small country (Denmark) in an area that can really get congested with planes pretty quickly. And then what?
@@NisseOhlsen I've wondered this myself. Australia has also gone with f-35's, and i wonder what we will use in conjunction with it, because i can't imagine they will be effective by themselves
@@narcissus79 I see the F-18E/Fs carrying large missile loads and the F-35 being used as a remote sensor for them.
@@longshot7601 that makes sense! I want sure how many f18's we were keeping, but we only recently upgraded the super hornets didn't we?
@@NisseOhlsen the F-35 is a dominant BVR fighter which is how most modern air conflict happens. And as Growling mentioned during the last fight, modern dogfights use missiles not guns.
A f35 HOBS fox 2 fight would be interesting to see
Have lived next to F-16s for 30 years, F-35s have been showing up lately. Because they are so much louder I can always tell when the F-35s are up. No complaints, March ARB is a great neighbor and we get free airshows 😁
Riverside, CA. We used to live in Corona. My older brother was stationed at March when he worked as a mechanic on C130s. Then up the 215 at Norton.
Same here in San Antonio, Texas. We have the Lonestar Gunfighters fly over my shop every day. There have been a few F-35's fly in and they are really loud.
I live 50km / 30 miles away from an active military airbase, I also hear the deep rumbles of the Pratt & Whitney engine on a weekly basis. Love it.
When I was a kid, I lived in an apartment that was probably less than a mile from the south gate at Hill AFB. I'd hear F-16s fly over almost daily.
I grew up in Bodø Norway and almost everyday i heard F16`s. That plane is special to me.
I worked on the F-16 for 20 years. Only times it flew clean like you fly it was test flights and airshows.
20 years on the same jet? Geez, I was in the Air Force for only 6 years and worked on three different fighters.
@@jeffrielley920 The selection in Norway wasn' all that great. But I got F-16 OCU, MLU1, M2, M3, M4, M5, M6 and M6.5
Not to go to far into wrestling, but the F-16 is sort of like Bret Hart. The best there is, the best there was, the best there will ever be!
@@jeffrielley920 Really? What was your job?
@@rotary7372 Crew Chief on F-4s, A-7s and A-10s.
Growling can you do a F-14 or f-18 scramble video where you need to take off from a carrier to intercept longhsot in a random jet?
from cold start
A combat loaded F-35 would annihilate a combat loaded viper in a dogfight due to the fact that the F-35 carries its armaments internally. These gun only dogfights in clean configurations don’t really mean anything in terms of real world application. Still very entertaining to watch though! It’s just kinda disappointing when people make conclusions about the f-35 from videos like this.
Im disagree. If for some reason you stuck in dogfight and You fighting for your live. You push button to drop all heavy stuff, then kill opponent and go back home.
@@MaciejRM the point he’s making is with both planes loaded with weapons the F35 is still stealthy and very difficult to detect. It can see the enemy from a very long way away (from horizon to horizon) passively and only use its active radar to lock a weapon on to the target and fire it to minimise detection. Your enemy would barely realise you’re there before been taken out with a missile.
@@internetposta7389 I think that if the need arose, it is no problem to dump unnecessary stuff
@@MaciejRM Yeah drop all your missiles while the other guy has sidewinders. That'll work out well.
@@thearisen7301 The emergency jettison does not drop AA weapons, only tanks, bombs, AG missiles etc. So you'd still have Sidewinders And or Amraams.
Luckily for F35 pilots, the chances are pretty slim to get into a turning fight with vipers (or, more realistically, something like Fulcrums etc.) US Air Force claims a 20-1 kill ratio against older non-stealthy Viper types in simulated fights (Red Flag.)
Love these videos! I watch every one of them. This is my favorite DCS Chanel hands down (I don’t even play, I just love military aviation 😊)
it's higher than that now. think it's 78-1
@@daltonv5206 its 178-0 bvr, it was originally a 16-1and now it's a 20-1 for dogfights. The 78 is just a hearsay mix up from the bvr number. In terms of air maneuverability, the F-35A is superior to the F-16, people just seem to never believe it
@@saltyfloridaman7163 looking at what they've started to show in airshows...I believe it. Maneuverability wise
Hey I think that the flight model underrepresents the F-35 . Yes it is nowhere close to the F-16 in the rate fight but the AoA performance of the F-35 is way better than you think . I suggest watching the F-35 demo you can see it can pull a massive amount of AoA . It wouldn't really change the outcome of the fight but the playing field would be more even . Any way great video .
F-35As have been turning F-16s into strafe rags in BFM for years now. Neither of these aircraft are modeled correctly in DCS. The F-16 has far better performance in STR, and the F-35A has better performance in AOA, ITR, STR, and climb rate. The first thing I noticed was how freaking fast an F-35 can climb. Keep in mind I’ve watched the F-16 from its infancy as the YF-16 up through the CCIP Vipers and every Block in between at the USAF AFFTC at Edwards AFB.
The Dutch dominated Nellis AFB Aggressors for a week straight, while they were carrying GBUs in the weapons bays. F-16s started out with 2x370 Gal tanks, ACMI, and CATM-9s on Day 1, then got dog raped every set. Came back the next day with 300Gal centerline, still got humiliated. Towards the end of the week, they stripped down entirely just to ACMI and CATM-9 to even it out a little, but still weren’t able to break over 1:1, and remained inferior.
The Dutch were high hour Viper drivers themselves who converted, but they said they learned how to exploit the many advantages the F-35A has over the F-16 in BFM, so the F-16s were just left behind. The fact they were doing it while carrying bombs really rubbed it in. This DCS modeling is just not representative of the actual performance characteristics.
@@LRRPFco52 yep that's the issue I have with alot of modern mods ect that are cool to mess with but you have to take what you get with a grain of salt but not many people do that.
@@outwardpanicjoe8950 If they want a realistic flight engine for the F-16C Block 50, they need to increase the STR by at least 7deg/sec.
For the F-35, combine the flight model of a baby Hornet with a turbo-charged Viper.
@@LRRPFco52 for the f35 I'm not sure if it's possible as mods are normally based on another paid moduel I think and mods just don't have access to most if the tool to make alot of the needed changes anyway. As far as I know.
@@LRRPFco52 the F16 has better climb rate than the F35
the same criticism made to the F35 were made with the F16, the only difference was social media at the time (1970s)
You the only other person I have ever seen that has mad that connection props
Same with the F-15.
The F/A-18 as well, you can still find 70s-80s era videos on TH-cam of all the controversy surrounding the Hornets while they were in development and early deployment.
Turns out fighter aircraft are not simple machines and the DOD wants to make sure they get it right even if that tacks two years and a few bucks on top of projections.
F-16 wasn’t really criticized for performance because it had hot rod performance. It was criticized for its safety and mishap rate. I was there from the YF-16 days to the present front and center at the USAF Flight Test Center, and we were involved with its development later on with Block 30/40 A2A capes expansion after it had matured.
We didn’t know it at the time, but we had lost 143 F-16s with 71 fatalities in its first 10 years of service from 1978-1988. We got involved with F-16C/D Block 30/40 in 1987.
@@deathdragon2283 F-15 was pretty well-received. The only people who criticized weren’t really heard at the time, but their idiotic comments have become known since by the few that care to look for them.
The F-Teens are really something. They marked an era and generated so many aircraft enthusiasts.
Same with F-4 before them
@@920utdoor Definitely! Another favourite of mine. A mean beauty!
With anti radar missiles stealth could become inconsequential.
@@dud3man6969 Part of stealth is EMCON and LPI AESAs networked together. How do you think ARMs will work against that?
When you played the slowmo replay of the first kill, and I saw the cannon shells just ripping apart that wing and tail end of the F-35, I instantly though, "Gonna need some flex tape for this one."
Just saw two F-15's practice dogfighting yesterday while out fishing in the Owens Valley Calif. looked like they were doing figure 8's and the noise was tremendous
The F-35’s machine spirit raged at being shot and tried to lock you up even after it’s pilot ejected!
Read accounts of Norwegian f35 pilots about eating clean F16 in dogfights
I wonder if its just because they can't tell where the f35 is... tactics may change that.
Unfortunately we will all need to wait for a serious updated to the F-35 (family) flight model.
This slapped togehter monstrosity is still rockin' a HUD.
And because of the lack of a more accurate flight modeling the F-35 can't fight its fight which is in the slow speed arena much like the F-18.
Agreed the f35 is much more maneuverable than this still interesting though
I'd love to see the Viper take on the Felon
Have you done any BVR content with the F-35? I'd be curious to see it perform in the environment it was designed for, even though we don't know it's true specs.
Yeap I really want to see a bvr between this two
also, f22 BVR against f16
@@maple1234567890321 Well that's a bit Unfair
I'd like to see the same matchup but start at BVR. See if the F-16 can get to dogfighting to start with. Or if the F-35 would take down the F-16 using its advantages, ie: stealth. No rules. Missles, guns, at range etc. Whatever you need to do. Like if it was 'real'.
That’s not a crash! That’s a Special Landing Operation!
russia be like
"I don't think fat Amy can pull out that buddy."
*BOOM*
"That's why they call her fat Amy" 🤣😆🤣😆😆🤣
Dispite the f35 always losing, i enjoy the vids where its featured. Now we just need the BVR battles with it or against it
Not to mention the F-16 already presses human endurance to the max. That’s the one wild card in these fights - pilot endurance - that you can’t simulate (yet 😀). Great content.
Yeah, an millienial in a F35 against a veteran in F16. I would say that is a 0-10
@@Tbonyandsteak an millenial? You realize Millennials are in their 40s right?
@@paulhopkins1905 Who raised the millenials?
@@Tbonyandsteak Whatever point you're trying to make is failing. By the way its Millennial
Try this as an F-35 tactic (I'd really like to see if it's possible)... go into the merge at full throttle, exit the merge into the sun (to combine the sun and the F-35's IR reduction), extend to the point where she's BVR, and make the fight her own... yes, that's not a "dogfight" but then again dogfighting is a 4th-and-lower generation idea.
I do kinda doubt if the sun and IR reduction will be enough to extend away that far without anything succesfully tracking it. But if that _is_ possible then that would be an interesting idea.
@@MiguelMitchelMichiel I'd like to see someone try
You can't really extend with F35 though, it's slower than most fighters of today. Also I don't know how stealthy the back is, engine is quite a bit larger surface than F-22's engines.
Also, dogfighting will ALWAYS be relevant, regardless of what generation of aircraft we have. Learn from the mistakes of the F-4.
@@republicofustio4381 I'm not so sure. Just because someone jumped the gun doesn't mean the gun never fired. And remember, with the F-4 it was an IFF problem. The people who thought it would only fight BVR didn't realize that there would be a lot of situations where the plane needs to visually IFF. These days even if visual IFF is needed, it can be done with the targeting pod at BVR ranges, and the F-35 essentially has a Sniper XR built in so it can do it even without even compromising its RCS.
I think this fight might have been more interesting without the F-16 and F-35 in "clean" configurations (2 Aim-9, nothing else), and instead had full weapons (6xAim-120) loads going into the merge.
Theoretically, this would drastically hinder the F-16, with significant aerodynamic loads more than the F-35, and might make this fight a little closer.
Just food for thought.
A real F-35A vs F-16C usually results in the F-35A being dominant. DCS just doesn’t model them accurately.
Is it possible in DCS to put the F35 in the type of environment that it was designed to fight in?
I don't think DCS could fit Fat Amy inside a Golden Corral.
It’s great in BVR missions and shines all day in them.
@@EndlessInfinity1 I was gonna say in a toilet bowl... but Golden Corral works LOL
@@Quillevergreen12345 as long as there's no thunderstorms nearby..
By environment, do you mean to the "Sky" ?
It bugs me whenever GS says “Fat Amy.” Doing a google search, I can’t find any conclusive data to back up pilots calling the F-35 this nickname. It sounds, though, like USAF pilots are calling it ‘Panther’, Marines calling it ‘Velociraptor’, and Navy calling it ‘Reaper’. Given the F-35’s capabilities, any one of those three names seem more plausible and fitting; I wonder if ‘Fat Amy’ originated from internet circles who have sought to mock the aircraft?
I think they're referring to the dcs flight model lol
Who are my pilots that watch these videos wanting to be a fighter pilot.
🖐
Hey GS. Thank you for playing so much with the Viper. I'm a huge fan of the Viper. Please make more, but also. You should play an aircraft you like ofcourse. All bout' your enjoyment.
Love you man. Keep it up!
Finland, Switzerland, and Poland have ordered Fat Amy, along with Singapore, GS.
Please do a BVR with these 2 fighters! I want to see if the table will turn
Theres almost no point, the f35 is a stealth aircraft designed for bvr. The viper would almost certainly lose
@@Nanchon21 you could say the same about this video, just in reverse. i think it would still be good to watch the f35 doing what its supposed to do
@@pieface6421 agreed. We've only really seen Fat Amy dogfight, which is the one thing it's supposed to *avoid.* a BVR fight would finally do poor Amy some justice.
I know this has been said before but could you try this exact same fight but with other stores on the F-16? I wonder if having the extra drag of AIM-120's and pylons would neutralize the advantage since the F-35 can keep most of its weapons internal.
throw in a targeting pod, jammer and a centerline and start at 60 miles...Viper bits, everywhere.
Even a slick Viper will not be dominant against F-35As with equal pilots. This has been proven since no later than 2017. The Dutch told about their experiences fighting F-16 aggressors for a week straight, and they humiliated them each day, while carrying bombs inside the bays. After they demonstrated superior exchange ratios in BFM, they would go off to the training areas to live drop GBUs on ground targets to get maximum training value. F-16s guys who weren’t sure prior to that had their doubts erased quickly.
If you're flying an f-16 and you are in a dogfight with an f-35, you're jettisoning the amraams lol
@@mayne242 AIM-120s can't be jettisoned. They're on LAUs. Nothing from stations 1, 2, 5L, 5R, 8, or 9 can be jettisoned and station 5 normally has an ECM pod, which can't be jettisoned either. When you hit the E-JETT, it only punches off 3, 4, 6, 7, which is generally bombs and the 2x 370gal EFTs.
F-16 in combat configuration is a bit of a pig, even post E-JETT. You start to see why F-35A is what it is because of the draggy and piggish nature of the combat-configured Viper.
F35 procurement in Canada was the only fiasco worse than canceling the arrow.
As the F-35 gets more popular I wonder if the Nellis nickname for it (Panther) will catch on more then Fat Amy.
Given the same time to mature as any other aircraft, the F35 will become the premier 5th gen F/A platform in the world.
I'd argue it already is. Look at the competition (F22, J20) and you'll see that neither can match its production or overall degree of capability.
What I would like to see is a straight up fight. Starting as a bvr and transitioning to dogfight if the opponent survives that long.
Hey GS, I would love to see an F5 vs F16 fight. It's not a fair fight, but would love to see you take a shot at it.
Is there an F-20?
F-5? Oh you mean the Mig-28..😁
I refuse to believe that F35 with those huge control surfaces can't turn fast.
It can, if you look up videos like F-35 vs F-16 you'll see comparison videos and it'll show the F-35 can keep up very well, especially since it's limited to 7g's in most cases
@@Hayzie3 f-35a is 9g limit with internal stores, also there were some dogfights vs f-16s and the f-35 won something like 16:1
@@michaelhaney9432 Yes in red flag exercises the F-35 had a 16-1 kill ratio in dog fights alone and a 178-0 kill ratio in BVR
@@theread3480 I really like it, I think DCS underrepresents the front aspect stealth of 4.5th gen fighters, what do you think?
DCS has no concept of how modern control systems work, it's all based on old school ideas of "I pull the stick back by x and the stabiliators rotate by y degrees". Modern control systems are extraordinarily complicated and use all available controls surfaces in ways that would be almost impossible to coordinate manually, but as a result you can get vastly better performance.
Lasted almost 3 minutes figgting the f16's fight
I wonder how long the F16 would last in a BVR fight with the lightning2?
at most one minute from lock-on. lol
@@pizza-for-mountains lol it depends in how long the missle takes to reach it🤣🤣
After the F-35 got crushed in the Dogfight I would love to see it in a BVR environment or a FOX 2 fight against the Viper. We should give Fat Amy a chance to put herself in a better light after this🤣
The gunfight favors the Viper but the BVR fight favors the F-35.
With AIM-9X Block Twos, the F-35 really doesn't need to turn in order to shoot.
Another thing the F-35 can do that the Viper can't is make full use of the AIM-120D due to the longer range of its radar.
I was thinking that gunfight between F-16 and F-35 is like hand-to-hand combat between an MMA fighter and a rifleman with out a rifle.
@@Ariccio123 It doesn't need to.
@@Ariccio123 I don’t know about the 9X, but the ASRAAM block 6 is currently being integrated so it can be carried internally.
I'd love to see F-35 vs Rafale
How is that whenever I think of an Idea of what two planes would be like in a dogfight , you ALWAYS have a vid released mere hours before I search it , love these vids
It would be interesting to see some rounds where opponent has an advantage. Like you accidentally spotted a stealth fighter behind or you are lower and slower.
Every time "Fat Amy" gets shot down in a vid like this, I imagine the victorious F-16 landing and when the pilot removes her helmet it's revealed to be Beca (Anna Kendrick) with a big smirk on her face. 'Pitch' Perfect has a whole new meaning in dogfighting...
Favorite quote : "Poor Fat Amy..."
2nd favorite : [CRASH!] "I guess that's why they call her Fat Amy."
You just got a callsign from a thunderbirds pilot. You're now called "Blink" :P
You should check out Max's reaction to your video
Best description I've heard of the F-35 is, "The the F-35 is not a fighter jet. It is a flying supercomputer that can fire missiles and drop bombs."
When the F-35 first arrived in the UK, we didn't even see fit to grace it with a cute name, like 'Fat Amy'. The Typhoon is a Tiffie, the Tornado is the Tonka................The F-15 is 'Dave'..........or if you are talking about the carrier variant, 'The Wheelie Bin'.
Of course an f-16 will be dead long before they ever get into a dogfight range.
You should be fair. Give the F-35 a chance in a BVR fight.
You know you got the best YT channel out there don’t you!
The F-35 is definitely not a plane you want to send in as an interceptor. You go wing side with a Mig to say hi, you might as well kiss your rear goodbye.
Please do a no hold barred fight with the F-35. Everything allowed.
Please make a video on demonstrating how a f-35 should fight. No hold backs.
F35 with the ability to fire an aim-9x at a target behind it tho
I don’t mean to complain, because I love your videos, and I think the dogfighting has a place. But with ALL of these panes I really want to see more realistic fights of them hunting each other, not merging.
yes sir, if you don't see that kind of video its due to limitations of the SIM or the Mod itself. When those capabilities become available we will deff do those videos also.
I dont know why its called fat amy, its 13 tons, the f22 is nearly 20 tons.
I guess its less agile because of the small wings.
Canuck here. I was in FB group Gripens for Canada. But here we are. So I watch how the UK Meteor missile integration is going (2030 sound fair?). Replacement engine, likely same, to make all that Block 4/ TR3 work. I'm actually kind of glad there is no reasonable chance of on-time delivery with central fuselage production chokepoint. I love the 2030 F-35A. But that is not what we ordered...
F-16 + vectored thrust = **mind blown**
Another great video to enjoy;)
The only F-35 variant with an internal gun is the F-35A. As mentioned, the F-35 is not designed as a dogfighter or air dominance fighter.
Yes, it actually is. It's a multirole fighter just like the F-16. Air superiority and dogfighting is baked into its core design. It enjoys a 16-1 win loss in dogfighting alone at Red Flag, and it is also in the defensive role, so aggressor pilots in the F-16, F-15, F-18, Typhoon, and other nato fighter aircraft have the initial advantage. Flight control software limited its maneuverability and maximum thrust during testing phases to prevent airframe stress. It has since been removed
@@saltyfloridaman7163 It's not a “dogfighter.” It wins because it uses its stealth and advanced sensor suite to make sure the other planes don't get to the merge. Its mission is SEAD and DEAD.
@@W0lframAlpha8133 it can most certainly dogfight. They've been dominating in BFM since 2017.
I would like to see a block 4 f35 take on the viper.
I think everyone agrees, we want to see Shotgun in an F-35 vs you in an F-16 BVR
fantastic explosion on the ground.
The F-35 Lightning II: The BBW of military jets.
Lol Still needing the WWI or II career with the F-104 bomber intercept/Mig-21 bomber escort.
Great stuff! Could you possibly do some more Apache videos, though? They are fascinating in their own way, all up close and personal with AA missiles, and AT missiles, and guns, and cannon rounds, and arrows :P.
Such a gentleman, didn't shoot up the cockpit
"Fat Amy gon' learn today!" lmaoooo
"That thing IS dead, right?"
Yes, but he's trying to take you with him.
"we are just having fun with fat amy" hahahahah words to live by , words to live by
Great video! Round two! Your opponent prolonged a crash and beautifully timed a last blast. Very impressive! We’re they a computer?
In the 35’s defence, in a straight up turning dogfight, there are few if any fighters than can beat the Viper. But as should be apparent, thats not what the F-35 is built to do, its meant to attack targets and kill enemy fighters before it ever gets to the merge.
I would just like to let you know as being a member of the Canadian air force that our government has scraped the acquisition of the F-35, due to cost and we are supposed to be acquiring the retired British Eurofighter
What might be interesting is to test If the intended method of fighting for an aircraft actually works. For instance could have fat Amy fired one missile and run away...
The F-35 is a node on a network and is akin to an AWACS giving high situational awareness. The F-15EX is a dump truck meaning that it can haul a lot of missiles. Push the F-15EX out front, radar off, with the F-35 sending fire control data.
cmon GS, lightning vs thunder pleaseeee
The end of that last round, "Ay bro, watch yo jet."
F35 must runaway to a invisible distance then fight from there.
I think a video where the f 35 shines would be great if there is one
For one the software and lifted restrictions make the F35 a better fight in close. I do believe one thing missing is whether DCS has accounted for the sensors and that pilot missle wise dies not have to be pointing at the target. The helmet allows for off high shots.
Can we please get a video with you flying the F-35 in BVR? Maybe F-35 vs F-22 or F-16c?
“Fat Amy gonna learn today” 🤣🤣
@7:38 Lmao bro leave the trigger and check ur six 😂😂😂🤣
Gripen vs F-16 seems like a very interesting matchup, on paper at least!
man I wish I could fly the f 35. Sidewinder gets all the best toysZ
I thought the F-35 did not have a gun.
Also, let us start naming every fighter. 'Fat Aimee' is funny.
I think only the A model has a gun
Does the F-35 but have the capability of locking where the helmet is pointing and launching missiles from essentially any position?
Yes. It can even direct weapons to an aircraft on it's six o'clock
Ok...And now load both with a realistic loadout and fight against each other...
We need to see Viper vs. Viggen. Sven has probably retired by now so you need to find someone that can hit the Volvo jet engine at the right places.
F-35 is a fighter aircraft designed to fight other fighters but is designed for BVR.
Since the F35 isn't designed for a merge guns only fight, I would like to see a BVR fight to see how well the Viper does in Fat Amy's wheelhouse.
“That’s why they call her fat Amy.” -crash
Is the F-35 capable of harrier style shenanigans with rotating nozzles in DCS?
Only the B model is capable of that.
@@BullGator-kd6ge I don't know if you'd even want to do that with the F-35B, you're doing hundreds of knots and all of a sudden you open the doors for the lift fan? That's like raising the mast on a sub while it's doing 20 knots, it'll rip the things off.
Probably not. The F35B STOVL system works differently than the Harrier's. I bet they've tried it though. And I bet it burned the tail flaps.
@@BullGator-kd6ge Even the B model wouldn't be able to pull off Harrier shenanigans. It'll rip apart if it tried that.
I'd guess not. the VTOL mechanism in the F35B works completely differently than on the harrier
Check out the Real Engineering vid aobut it
so when you creators going to make f-35 vs other aircraft in bvr?
I feel like the F-35 is NATOs way of saying “If you can’t beat this, you don’t deserve hegemony” and I don’t believe the concept around which it was designed will hold water in any prolonged conflict with a near-peer adversary.