Beautiful soul who understood Krishnamurti as few others did. A wise man in his own right with a real gift for putting things simply and lucidly. There aren't too many of those in the world at this time, I think.
Tosca Z I agree. 👍 Super interesting to have the point of view of Mr. Bohm on Krishnaji. ---------------------- El Pacificador Thanks. ''Global Truth Project'', from the quick glimpse I gave to its website, has a very unlikable doctoral tone with its obvious statements, but nevertheless could be interesting for some insights. 🤓
@@Oppositethink Obviously, his biographer Mary Lutyens is a good resource. ''Freedom from the Known'' is a compilation of essential Krishnamurti teachings by Mrs Lutyens. Krishnamurti has personally approved the book. The biography by Pupul Jayakar provides an interesting historical context of Krishnamurti's life, but she has understood K. extremely superficially. She could not let go of her huge aristocratic ego.
@@Marcus_Sylvester Thx Mathieu I know already what you say but I am looking if, more than writing a biographie, is there some people as bohm who understood K.
@@Oppositethink Sadhguru and Osho. Osho more imo. Osho has been greatly influenced by K. and understood him very well. But you will see that he had not the rigor and austerity of Dr. Bohm. Lol! Nevertheless, despite his shortcomings, Osho is a super interesting and insightful spiritual teacher. (''Freedom from the Known'' is not a biography. It is an excellent short synthesis of K. teaching.)
The humility of David Bohm is the very essence of the flower which meditation blooms into after generosity has captured the heart. I love these guys so much. Thank you Lord.
Transcription of key points: "If the self were really there then perhaps it would be correct to center on the self because the self would be so important but if the self is a kind of illusion, at least the self as we know it, then to center our thought on something illusory, which is assumed to have supreme importance, is going to disrupt the whole process. It will not only make thought about yourself wrong but it will make thought about everything wrong, so that thought becomes a dangerous and destructive instrument, all around. Because this illusory self, which is really an image, is regarded as all-important, whenever anything about it appears to be threatened, the brain develops a very powerful defense mechanism to try to prevent this from taking place.... If somebody says something which threatens the reality of this whole structure itself then it's as if your life were at stake. The brain, all stops are pulled out and the brain responds with the instinct of self-preservation to absolutely prevent you from considering it. It may just dull the mind or transfer attention somewhere else or make you forget about or find yourself thinking of something else, any number of defenses. And you see it's clear that when somebody like Krishnamurti comes along and say that this is an illusion or that this isn't real, this defense mechanism is going to be provoked into action, and this becomes the principal difficulty in listening to the communication. Part of the defense is to make us unconscious of it, you see, the major form of defense is simply concealment of what's going on because if we could see what was going on it would be obvious it was an illusion. It's like seeing through the trick of the magician....you may also conceal by denying that it's so and asserting something else. Therefore, we are not conscious certainly of the defense mechanism because this process of concealment itself has to be concealed in order to make it effective and therefore the major part of defense consists of making the whole process unconscious. Krishnamurti is suggesting, proposing, even saying that- The self is not the source of thought but rather thought is the source of the self. You see, we're saying the assumption of the self creates inside a kind of image of the self corresponding to that assumption, with great power, and that image is attributed reality and you get a feeling that it's real. Therefore you form the assumption that there is the self who is the thinker, the source of thought, and there is that which he is thinking about, and besides that, there is the thought which is produced by the thinker which refers to what he is thinking about. What is being suggested is.... the thought process is real, it's going on in the brain, in the nervous system, and this thought process contains in it the assumption of a thinker who produces thoughts. So it's as it were producing a television program of a thinker producing thought and the mind is watching that program so intently that it takes that to be the reality. There is a kind of conditioning around the self which is extremely strong because it contains assumptions of absolute necessity. You see, the self is considered to be of something supremely important and whatever it needs is regarded as absolutely necessary, which means it cannot be otherwise, it cannot yield, and therefore it takes first priority and it pushes everything else outside and including even the requirement that thoughts should be correct and true. And therefore it immediately starts self-deception going and that is why thought becomes dangerous because if thought deceives itself it's really very dangerous. I think the ultimate purpose of K's work was stated very early in his life, which was to free humanity from the destructive conditioning we've been talking about. This conditioning around self-centered thought is really an enslavement. An enslavement to absurdity, to destruction, to unhappiness, sorrow. No other kind of freedom means anything unless we are free from that. And therefore I think that he felt that once man was free from that, the way would be open to creative unfoldment in all sorts of directions."
Thank you so much for this "Transcript of key points". Dr. Bohm talked so fast, I was having trouble writing down those key points for my own consideration. Many thanks!
I see no reason why something cannot be both an illusion and real. Being an illusion makes it real, it´s its link to reality. While illusion is our only link to reality, since we only perceive the model of it. It is a distinction that doesn´t really mean something. So the self is only important as long as you focus on it. Like anything you focus on. But still the point stands, the produced behaviour and thinking when focussing on the self is not helpful, except to the self.
Due to greed and jealousy in the profession of physics, Bohm as marginalized. Regardless, he was perhaps the greatest physicist who has ever lived, even surpassing his mentor, Einstein. Bohm figured out that consciousness - the totality of all there is - is the singular movement of all of life out of which all occurs and in which all returns.
Krishnamurti uses difficult language but once you get it...you u understand...but this guy's vocabulary is very hard to understand but once you give attention to it....it is the most scientific as it can get....he is not just blurting out something, he has thought this through
@Nour083 Unfortunately, there are many things wrong with what you have said, and many things wrong with the evidence you provided. First of all, Bohm had depression for all of his life, before he even met Krishnamurti. Secondly, Bohm had similar theories of how the mind worked as Krishnamurti did, far before he met the person. This is why they got along. It is a complete disrespect to the person who suffered that you narrow and simplify this depression down to just "He had depression, therefore what he said must be wrong". Depression is so much more complex than this. You can be totally right, everything in your life can be okay, but you can still be depressed. There are so many causes, many of which are biological than psychological. That is a big the reason why older people are more prone to depression - imbalance in hormones, brain chemicals and such. Did you ever even consider this? Have you studied the basics of depression and neuroscience? I doubt it. Your views are limited, your understanding of depression is surface level. Your comments are misguided. I am sorry but that is the truth. One cannot enlighten one's way out of depression. Depression is DIFFERENT from normal suffering which the Buddha, Jesus, or even Krishnamurti talks about. One has to be free of depression to walk the path of enlightenment (a figure of speech, it is said there is no path). I know this, as a person who has suffered from it long before learning of Krishnamurti or Bohm or the Buddha or anyone. The rest of your comments, I cannot even believe. It seems you haven't even looked into the history of Krishnamurti. You haven't even taken the liberty to look into his life before making such comments. The man was the head, the poster child, the "world teacher" as they claimed, of one of the largest spiritual organisations in the world at the time. All this amidst a surge of spiritual hunger throughout the world. Tell me, if such a man was chasing money, fame, success, why would he choose to disband such an organisation? What an absurd claim this is. He did not even You choose to defend legendary and almost mythical figures like Jesus, Buddha, Muhammad and Krishna. Trust me, if they were born in more modern times, where the world could scrutinise their past and personal lives, you would not be thinking much different about them than you do about Krishnamurti. It's only because the world has idolised and immortalised these figures. Each religion's followers have wiped all the blemishes from these people's lives, treating them as gods who made no mistakes. It is not even known whether many of them are historically accurate as people - like Jesus and Krishna. But you do not see this. You choose to believe whatever they feed to you. I do not think negatively of the messages of Jesus, Buddha and whoever. They were enlightened beings in and of themselves. But you idolise them as the religious do. You believe every word they say. Quite childish. Like Krishnamurti, they were all prone to mistakes. All in all, I think you are wrong clearly lol. Your evidence is quite lacking. You spread lies. One should not idolise Krishnamurti - like any teacher - but one must see the truth of what he was and tell it as is. And what you said were lies. I hope you can be less biased and find the truth.
I think this is the major difficulty in understanding Krishnamurti, he uses some key terms in an unconventional way, like *attention* , *intelligence* , *mind* , *brain* , *aloneness* , *meditation* etc. Once you understand these key terms, it becomes much easier. Bohm is also really good at pointing this out, he clears up those terms when they come up in the many dialogues between K. and Bohm. Listening to those has helped me immensely.
6 Dr. Bohm explains in the video interview that the mind is concealing itself from itself by being unconscious of what it is doing; it is playing a trick on itself like a magician does with smoke and mirrors. One of the ways to get around this problem is to begin by studying thought through watching movies and view the movie characters as 'egos' (which in fact they are). Instead of viewing each character as a person, think of all the characters as different emotional responses. But also realize that what you are watching is exactly how your mind functions too. Notice how you are prone to emotionally sympathize with certain characters and condemn other characters. You are exposing, uncovering your concealed 'ego' and for the first time you are detecting it. Then notice how you want to correct your responses. The urge to correct is your conditioning protecting its illusion or belief mechanism. The point is to merely examine and learn through the examination while you watch the movie. Notice your tendency to 'like' & 'dislike' what is going on in the movie. Notice your tendency to emotionally identify with certain characters. The characters that you 'dislike' reflect your hidden subconscious which contains ALL of your thoughts and feelings that you have rejected and suppressed into the dungeon of your emotional-being. Your mind is AWAKENING to itself and may at first feel frightened of what it is finding out. Don't worry; that is a normal reaction that most people go through upon AWAKENING to the 'self'. You are beginning to learn about the content of your emotional-being (your consciousness that is rooted in bias). The moment you are aware of bias, it ends, without you trying to end bias. Bias or emotional choosing maintains itself by seeking to try to change itself into unbias, which is a trick the mind plays to hang on to its 'self-centeredness'. By merely watching the movement of the 'self', it is unraveling, unfolding like a flower, then it dies away, naturally, without force or opposition of willpower. So when you watch movies you are watching the 'self', if you watch it HOLISTICALLY, without dividing and taking sides, emotionally. If you do that, then just pay attention to that movement, too. Nothing is a distraction when you are paying attention. I have done this for years and it all came together when I would listen to a J. Krishnamurti video after watching the movie, then what he described began making more sense, to me, and I was able to actually SEE the entire 'self', not just in the movie but in myself, too. Because the 'self' operates the same in all people, no matter your race, economic status or cultural background. If you venture out further, you watch movies that are about ALL races, cultures, political, religious and you will see that behind ALL OF THEM is 'EGO'/'SELF'. Then you will see in the mirror reflected out of watching those movies for the purpose of DETECTING/EXPOSING the hidden 'self' that the common ground on which Humanity stands is the same thing. But, when you AWAKEN, you naturally transition out of that disorderly 'self-centered' dimension, altogether, without trying to struggle to get away from the 'self'. All forms of struggling to break free from the 'self' only perpetuates, reinforces it. You can watch how that happens when you look at the 'egos' driving the characters in the movie or T.V. series. If you watch a T.V. series I suggest that you only do it without commercials. I watch through Netflix. But Amazon offers movies to watch too. Commercials are pulling at your mind to influence it to buy, buy, buy. So I was watching "Daredevil" TV series which shows how the 'villain' and 'hero' are one in the same if you watch how they both are rooted in their 'self-centeredness' -- neither one was grounded in Neutral self-awareness. Both sides are seeking solutions through conflict, which is limited energy. Limited energy can never bring about Physical Security, and the environment is being abused by both the 'villain' and 'hero'. Look at it like a math equation: villain equals a negative-one; hero equals a positive-one; but if you view them as 2 sides of the same coin then they cancel each other out to equaling ZERO-POINT ENERGY [negative-one plus positive-one equals ZERO]. But, if you CHOOSE heads/hero to emotionally favor and tails/villain to condemn or visa versa, then instead of ending up at the harmonious ZERO-POINT, you end up with either limited positive-one or limited negative-one, which is contradiction (irrationality). So like a scientist studying something OBJECTIVELY (without bias), study the emotional 'self' that way while you Observe the 'Observer' both in the characters as well as your own 'observer'. You may begin to notice that without any effort, the 'observer' dissolves as it starts to realize that the 'Observer IS The Observed' so there's nothing to CHOOSE at all. Conflict in the mind then ends, naturally. By examining the characters' 'self' in the movies or TV shows it makes it much simpler to understand the descriptions that J. Krishnamurti or Dr. Bohm conveys. Then it begins to be a LIVING REALITY, not just a bunch of words.
Hello Valerie. I have read what you have written and ressonate with krishnamutry bohm and your words, can I contact you for more advice on exercises that you did or do in observing oneself? email address is mintecorpactiv@yahoo.ro .thank you uploader for this short and concentrated insight :-)
i don't give advice. it weakens a person to follow anyone. I study and examine what J.K. and Bohm point out. There is no following in examination or investigation. Real investigation is a journey one must take alone so that one can independently stand on ones own feet. It is each person's responsibility to be a light unto oneself. That means to walk alone observe alone. And learn from the observation itself. Nothing else is necessary. Nobody helped me to understand myself. And its suppose to be uncomfortable (just like childbirth). There's nothing wrong with being uncomfortable, for that disturbance awakens your own understanding. Most people don't want to be disturbed, emotionally. That is why they are trapped by conditioned automatic obedient thinking. But this is not advice. I am stating the facts as they are. Emotions say "I like that or I don't like that." It's very simple to watch your reactions. Then listen to what J.K. says. Then you can see the false nature of your mind because it wants to choose to run away from anything it finds disturbing. The challenge is are you free to watch your emotional responses without trying to improve them? That is not a question meant for you to answer to me. That question is put forth for you to probe yourself. We are not here to answer to each other. We are here to learn about our emotional being so that we can function in harmony and stop destroying ourselves and the world around ourselves. So long as the mind remains in the dark about what it is doing, it must keep on being irrational and destructive. So there is no need to lean on me or anyone else. That makes your mind weak. It is like the mother bird kicking its young out of the nest so that they can spread their wings and fly all by themselves. That is strength; that is unsentimental genuine Love. Thank you.
when i started to little by little realize this i couldnt stop laughing, i cant remember the last time i have laughed like that and couldnt stop myself
This video should be shown in every psychology class in the world.. It does tend to make the contemporary psychology class look like the tip of the iceberg.. Haha
@El Pacificador I read about half of it and I don't belive that it's the truth. It says something along the lines that you were the one that evloved from microb to human. That is nto the truth. It implies that there is some kind of permanent soul. That is not the truth and if you do some meditation you can see it for your self. There is no you conecting one moment to the other. There are just processes that are rolling along.
yoooyoyooo - And who is experiencing those processes as they roll along? Experiences exist. Experiences logically entail an experiencer. Denial of the experiencing self (that which is the subject of your experiences) is the most insane denial in human history, IMHO. If we deny that we’re experiencing selves, then you must deny that you’re having any experiences at all. But the existence of our own experiences is the one thing we can be 100.0% certain of...
One of the Great theoretical physicists who has simplified how thought and self centred activities operates in mankind,s consciousness from the teachings of J Krishnamurti.
yes! krishnamurti was only talking, he didnt helped people in real sense, whats why in older years you can hear some angriness and bitterness of old man. he didnt helped people to find soul and be happy. who helped in real and uplifted souls, in your list i would add - Ramakrishna
Wow, trust a quantum physicist to actually get it. I notice a lot of people who are objectively great at something have a lot less ego than you would think. They experience things as happening by itself rather than be caused by them. And this as true for painting, sculpting as for thinking. This also clearly illustrates there is really no need to stop thinking. There is a need to stop thinking about the self.
"...the problem is the source of the self... the thought process contains within it the assumption of the thinker.." minute 4:00 "self-deception... the conditioning around the self-centered thought is really an enslavement..."
The self is a survival program in the brain. Because it is just a program, it is not alive, but unfortunately, the brain comes to identify itself and all its memories as being this program. This identification results in the brain investing enormous energy in promoting this program to others and defending it from all perceived psychological threats. When the brain realizes that the self is just a program, it ceases wasting energy.
1 Why is the 'self' so bad? if the 'self' were really substantive, then there would be no problem in being 'self-centered'. However, the fact is that psychological or emotional thought projected from its past emotional experiences imagines whatever it wants to be and then defends that imaginary projected state. For instance, people are programmed to emotionally identify with their nation which gives one a sense of SUPERIORITY to other nations. And, it magnifies a sense of separateness and power. So when your so-called nation is condemned, one is ready to kill to defend its honor. The nation is an ideological concept born out of 'self-centered' thought to get masses of people to do whatever the rulers wish. That is why all nations make it mandatory to indoctrinate children into mental attachment to their country. This makes an emotional fragmentation which breeds hatred and brutality and inevitable warfare among these emotional groups. This dividing people is deliberately done in order to conquer the minds of the masses. It is easy to trick people into going to war over emotional insults toward a group that you identify with. That group can be racial, religious, gangs, gender, sex orientation, political parties etc. Now there is great emotional pressure to entice people to choose between the corporate powers that are poisoning our environment (with the governments' permission) and the so-called 'internet truth movement' journalists who are ranting against this tyranny. The 'self' or 'ego' thrives on fragmentation & violence/conflict. It begins by picking a side to emotionally identify with (just like choosing a team to emotionally rally behind). Before each and every war, this process is done. The politicians give highly emotional speeches that choose a group to scapegoat. After a period time, the masses choose a side to emotionally attach to. Then the brutality and bloodshed commences. Then our planet is badly damaged by these wars carried on in the name of emotional-superiority and domination of one group against another group. We are on the brink of annihilation because the poisons spreading around the world is tearing down our ecosystem at an alarming rate. There is a crucial necessity to shed our old way of thinking about the 'self' and start to study ourselves and detect exactly what the 'self-centered' thought process is up to, not to oppose the 'self'. Any opposition only serves to strengthen emotional 'self-centered' defensiveness. The act of observation of the 'self' is neither a positive nor negative action; it is NEUTRAL! Observation alone is outside of the 'self' because it is not born of memory. Instead, Observation, Attention or Awareness are strictly an action done in each present moment. Seeing now what you emotionally feel and think whenever you listen to what another person says or does exposes the hidden 'self' and casts a light on it. Just to be aware is the Neutral Action that allows the 'self' to bloom like a flower and tell its story and then naturally withers away, if you don't interfere with the listening/observing.
In matters of the emotional-being agreement or disagreement is irrelevant. It's a matter of actual perception of the fact. Agreement-Disagreement is based on Liking-Disliking what is being pointed out. LOVE is Unbiased Attention to 'What Is' actually taking place in ones emotional state of mind. I keep saying 'emotional' in order to distinguish from the (left-brain) mechanical intellectual thought process that deals with the mundane operations that deal with daily tasks and errands. The 'emotional-being' (right-brain) is based on personal/subjective thoughts and feelings rooted in traditional concepts, beliefs, opinions, images about the sense of 'self-importance'. IT is the one that chooses to Agree-Disagree about psychological matters. This is why I said that it is irrelevant to Agree-Disagree in psychological matters. Either one is in touch with the fact of ones emotional responses (be they positive/comforting or negative/disturbing) or one is not in touch. Thought can only escape from any state of mind that it disagrees with by believing it is the opposite. So if, for instance, thought truly dislikes what is being pointed out, it can hide in a verbal assertion that it "Agrees", when in fact, it dislikes and rejects what is being said. Because, the 'self' desires to be viewed by others as being 'virtuous'. When one is honest with oneself, then one will see ones initial emotional response without trying to improve it. For the one who 'improves' how one feels or thinks, it is the initial feeling or thought that is trying to disguise/escape from that initial state of being. It is the Neutral Energy of Perceiving 'What Is" actually taking place in ones mind from each present moment that naturally ends thought. And, where emotional-thought ends, LOVE begins. Thank you.
Thoughts of any kind are not an obstacle to realizing that which they appear inside of as undirected and unbounded consciousness that is awake to itself , plus one can think any thought they want ,threatening or pleasant and not disturb that infinite lively silence . It is true that when one begins to experience Pure Consciousness for the first time/s it seems as though thoughts are indirect conflict with stillness and to a certain degree based on how identified we are with these thoughts there will be a slight sense of them being an obstacle . But , quickly ,as we become identifies with the pure wakefulness , our thoughts become less and less of an issue and are found to be occurring simultaneously with the stillness. ❤️
yes, the only thing though, which is fundamental, is that stillness is not an occurrence as thoughts are. Stillness is the eternal 'background' from where thoughts occur and where they wind up, whether processed by thinking or not.
Our existence as a separate entity is a cosmic dream. The house of body has no inhabitant, only an apparent tenant. To some the realization of this fact is enlightenment, and to others, a nightmare you cannot wake up from.
Yes, to me it is all nightmare. I find myself realizing all the false implications of the self as an independent reality, but I am not able to bear the fact. There is a strong withholding, an act of ego-protection. The next day I go on with my miserable life trying to project my future will be secure, I will have money, this and that, self-improvement, trying to have a pleasant self-image. Then after a while I feel miserable again, struck by the futility of it all, and come back to realizing the deceptive and destructive nature of self-centered activity. Thought is caught in an infinite loop of realization versus withholding.
@@kooroshrostami27 Stop believing every thought. It never ever reflects the truth of every moment because thought cannot experience anything. Try to see this. All the mind does is judge what is experienced after the fact. Most of it is negative mental chatter anyway trying to protect itself but ends up doing the opposite. Be gentle with yourself. Ask for divine guidance when it gets hard or you feel like your taking 3 steps back. It ok. We all have similar struggles in life.
Thank God for this mind and Krishnamurtis sights, dogma is one of our biggest problems today, Wittgenstein spoke of the inability of spoken words actually communicating our feelings and thoughts due to context and education Bohm has the articulation helping us get a glimpse of the chimera we are trying to make stand still for security, my mind starts to dissipate just trying to express the my thoughts
2 The illusion of the 'self' is based on physical security. The 'self' rationalizes its 'self' emotional defenses by saying, "I must use my memory of knowledge to nuture and protect my biological survival. So I must also use my 'emotional memory' to sustain my traditional beliefs handed down to me from my ancestors, too." This is an illusory argument because when people use knowledge in order to try to reinforce emotional fulfillment through their beliefs, ideals, prejudices, etc., they must go to war, and war DESTROYS physical security in the world. Especially now with the advanced Weapons of Mass Destruction (like depleted uranium weapons that spread ionized radiation around the world increasing cancers and other brain damage diseases), it is threatening the existence of life on Earth. This is due to the fact that the 'self-centered' (ego) has overlooked the fact that IT is the ultimate W.M.D. that created all of the W.M.D.'s and has failed to understand the falseness of what it is doing on an emotional level. It is the hardest thing for emotional-thought to investigate itself, objectively without bias to see how it deceives itself into believing that "physical security" and "psychological security" are the same thing. When thought chases after "psychological security", it puts at risk "physical security". And, the 'self' refuses to acknowledge that fact. It insists that "I" must have "psychological security", at all cost. This is what makes thought a lethal poison in the world by not understanding where knowledge/thought is useful in mechanical affairs, but is highly destructive in emotional matters.
Doesn't the delusion start much earlier though? The very notion of security is delusory if you think about it. Security always implies permanence. If I know I have food today, that's not security. If I know I have food permanently, that would be security. But this is impossible, everything could happen at every point, an accident, disease, a crisis, an act of violence. Individual life itself isn't permanent. It seems that the demand for security is absurd because it is essentially insecurity. I could be in the most protected condition, live in the safest country, as healthy as can be, surrounded by a loyal wife, family, friends etc., there would still be that distant but very deep anxiety of knowing that I would eventually have to lose all of that, no? So it appears that the act of looking for security is born out of total delusion.
02;36 "therefore we are not conscious of the defence mechanism because this process of concealment itself has to be concealed in order to make it effective "..
Wow! Bohm here delivers a wonderful explanation of the nature of the self and its relationship with thought. He is definitely more clear than Krishnamurti.
@@luyanuria Agreed, Krishnamurti had the insight, but Bohm's language is more accessible and coherent. K. kind of had his own language which was somewhat cryptic at time. Bohm translated it to a more common language, and he kept the depth of meaning intact.
@@Maviz007 And indeed, you can. His essence (and yours) is not a body. Just see through the body of the next person you meet. That would be a true meeting of "souls."
Yeah what is said about human psyche is virtualy the same, but K. added that getting involved with any kind of belief system, method, group, teacher will inevitably involve a projection of self. I think that point is a crucial addition by K., reject all schools of thought first.
@El Pacificador I looked at your site and it appears you have good intentions. The awareness, or ultimate reality that is spoken too in a manner of speaking is commonly understood in many, many circles. It's been around since the upanishads. The awareness surrounding these realizations are still only that in a global sense. Some who are aware use insight for personal gain . Others just speak to it. Still others use their individual insight to help others, as best they can while managing their own awareness. One might consider the notion/statement of managing ones awareness and it's implied meaning regarding awareness.
@David Cardy the statement I made is directly related to the video and what's being said. If you don't see this then you are not understanding within the context of the video claims and others speaking to it. If you see it differently then state so. So far you have told us you're pissed. Can you add something that is outside your own life perspective. This is the nature of what's being said and talked about, it's applicable to everybody, it is not an ideology. These comments are just observations of a reality the video guests speak to. This point at which awareness/thought intersect and an understanding of how this unfolds. It's difficult to articulate intricacies about something in a comment box. Getting pissed at people and in essence letting us all know your mad doesn't do be or help a conversation. Outside of no body continuing to give you any time other than this time is what your participation will likely yield.
I like that simile very much. Although I think you mean to refer to wave and photon. The duality of light behaving as both wave and particle-stream when it is observed (according to the Copenhage interpretation of the double slit experiment) seems to very much mimick the relationship between self, image and focus. When focussed upon, the self is an image (particlestream). But leave it alone and the results we witnes can only be the work of an undivided self (wave)
Sometimes I don’t know if people like this are talking about something you already know but they have a way of talking which makes you strain to absorb what they’re saying. I’ve heard all of these words, the self, the mind, the soul, conscious, consciousness, unconscious, I wouldn’t want to assume I understand their meaning inside and out. Gurdjieff said that one of the problems with people is that we think we understand each other, but he was one to talk, his work isn’t easy to follow and he even said himself that he didn’t teach directly. The way I look at it is, if you’re going to try and teach people be clear, yes, there’s a time when you should make people figure things out themselves. “In the beginners mind there are many possibilities, in the experts mind there are few”.
I like your ramble, Ryan. If people are unable to understand each other, then this answer must be an illusion. But if all is illusion, what is the use of the distinction between illusion and reality? And of course: banana flavoured columns of wintertime differentials.
Learn the art of listening the art of seeing. Only a silent mind, knows truth. Thought is limited and conditoned by the past. This guy admired Krishnamurti but did not listen. Please listen to Jiddu Krishnamurti. He is the real deal. If you are new to Him. I recommend watching his talk to the public in Amsterdam. Its a simple and beautiful talk. But all his talks are very simple if you learn to "listen"✌❤✌
Speakers and saints come and go but his guy is the atom Bohm, what with alongside Jiddu they as one pointed my being to the truth that only a few will experience. God bless Bohm and Jiddu they are of course equal to all, including Christ and Buddha. : )
Yes! And it is nice to remember that all thought might be thought about self. Maybe thought didn´t come into being to be helpful. I see the self as an emergent behaviour of a sufficiently complex interlinkedness of neurons. Thinking about it is a wonderful past-time. Not thinking about it and acting on it, can be dangerous. Danger is there, only when there is a self for the danger to be dangerous for. Therefor all thoughts about danger are thoughts that assume a self. They are ultimately thoughts about the self. Judging thoughts to be helpful is also interesting. Helpful to whom? But I like your point, I´d only like to stretch it to: there can be no objectivity.
The personality self may be an illusion, but surely the experiencer self can’t be denied. I (the experiencer) experience, therefore I (the experiencer) am.
I like the admittance that some form of conditioning is necessary. It's inevitable. Perhaps we'll realize one day that all of what is condemned as a problem, has been due to wrongful usage of the thing.
There is no ego to escape from, there can be no learning to escape from ego, all learnings are based on memory and conditioning. The message of realised people is to point out that there is no self already, to realise that is to be the real.
ONES EYE JUST POPPED OUT. SO EASY TO UNDERSTAND ALONG WITH DANIEL KAHNEMAN "THINKING FAST AND SLOW AND ANNA LEMBKE "DOPAMINE NATION." ANY QUESTIONS? #MORENOMORE #KNOWMEMESHERE
So it seems there are two things going on simultaneously. 1. There is what is happening call it the process of life happening around us. And 2. The thought process, playing a TV program internally for the mind of what is happening outside. And the mind watches this program as if it is really happening outside and the program is a reality. So, thought takes over and mislead the brain or the mind or the illusive self.
So Krishnamurti posits that humanity is essentially a hive-mind but each individual has convinced itself psychologically it is actually a separate entity
I think what happens is that we find our bodies to be separate and intuitively infer that our minds must be different entities as well. Like we infer that every brain has its own mind when actually mind is univeral and shared by all brains.
This is all you need listen understand inquire what JK & Bohm is saying is the key 🔑 🔐 to unlock illusionary self created thought so can live a life of wholeness with true intelligence & compassion which is free from any conditioning
Sourabh There are excellent videos, check out, Nisargadatta Maharaj, Ranjit Maharaj, Poonja Papaji and Sri Ramana Maharishi. Paul Brunton has written excellent books on his experiences. Hope it helps.
At about 5:15 he considers thought preceding itself. In reality this can not be. However thought is subject to subterfuge. Our current reality is starting to explicitly reveal this to our senses. We have been subject as #Citizen to this.
The brain is always in control. It creates an image of I and then creates thought to find that I and finally it changes certain modalities of function to convince that the thought found the I. By doing all this, it ensures its survival, while the body and mind are left thinking they are enlightened. All is well in the end, except for those who lost all their money because their brains just refused to play that silly game. 99.9% watching on the sideline cheer on and tell the whole world their ancestors knew something so amazing.that would reveal all the past lives and history to the brain that played that silly game. Yet, none of the enlightened brain never tell us what they found; they say we have to play the game all by ourselves.
7 People always ask, "How is my psychological AWAKENING going to change the collective consciousness to stop the impending dangers threatening the world?" Quantum Physics discussed by Dr. Bohm's "The Implicate Order" touches upon this issue, because it reveals that underlying the entire Universe is a Holistic Energy Field that all forms of matters are grounded in. For the most part, the Universe is Orderly Balanced Energy, because of the Neutral Energy permeating it. However, the Human mind has divorced itself from Neutral Energy. So the 'ego' is existing in its own Black Hole vacuum, because it is grounded in finite energy fragments. So a mind that is out of touch with observing its entire self (meaning ALL of its feelings and thoughts) is in a perpetual state of DIS-integration, and degeneration. The mind that examines itself and is TOTALLY AWAKE to its emotional movements is grounded in the same orderly energy as the Quantum Field of the Universe (Uni- means ONE energy field) that is grounded in the same Neutral Energy (which is the same energy found in the nucleus of all atoms). It is that empty space that permeates all of reality. However, the Human mind has found a way to divorce itself from the empty space of Neutrality, which is why there is NO balance in Human consciousness which causes violence that serves Emotional Illusory Fulfillments and puts the biological body in harms way as it fights war after war. Now then... When a person AWAKENS to this fatal error of emotional gratification, its energy transforms through the Neutral Observation of the limited energy known as the 'ego' or 'self'. Notice in the atom that the electrons {negative energy} and protons {positive energy} are 2 sides of the same coin that would seek to annihilate each other if it were not for these opposite energies being grounded in the Unlimited Neutral Energy of the neutron. Neutral Energy has no opposite form of energy so it is WHOLE unto itself. Zero is not a fragment or a number. You can divide it, multiply it, subtract it or add it and yet, it still remains ZERO! Neutral energy has no measurable qualities so it is infinite empty neutral-charged space permeating the entire Universe {which is the Quantum Energy Field of all existence}. This Creative Empty Neutral Space gives balance to the finite opposite energies (positive-negative). But in the Human mind, there is no space, which is why its energy is degenerating and unbalanced and leads to neurotic behavior. So when your mind begins to be attentive to its emotional responses, it is the energy in the act of attention that brings Creative Empty Neutral Space into the mind which the emotion folds into after it has fully expressed itself (just like a storm weather system expressing itself and then withers away). Our thought is just like various climate conditions. And ALL climate conditions must be allowed to express themselves or else geological imbalances will take place. There is nothing wrong with disturbances in the mind (just like an earthquake, or thunder storm or volcanic eruptions are necessary for balancing the energy in the biosphere). Just because you feel upset doesn't mean there is something wrong with you. Those feelings and thoughts are there for the mind to OBSERVE so that they can bloom like a flower and naturally die away afterwards. There is NO NEED FOR EMOTIONAL 'SELF 'CONTROL, because it is the Neutral Energy Of Observation that brings harmony to the positive or negative feelings or thoughts (which are opposite fragments born out of each other). Anyway... The Millennium Shift is giving our minds one last chance to shed our Emotional Programming {of choosing 1 side of of emotional responses to cling onto and reject the opposite side, which is psychological fragmentation} or else our species will become extinct. Because in the Quantum Field, no species can be allowed to destroy the Universal Energy Field. And the 'Collective Subconscious' is using bio-chemical, HAARP, Chemtrails, Nano airborne mind-control tech, Techtonic Warfare, Weapons of Mass Destruction in an ongoing process of destroying the external Earth so that the elite class can depopulate our species, tag them, put them in cages and rule them inside the Earth where they have built underground cities. But they have failed to understand that Life is Holistic so by disrupting the Earth's external energy fields, that may be damaging the internal Earth's energy fields, too. And, that may also go on to disrupt other energy fields in other dimensions that are interconnected with our planet, and whatnot. So whenever a species' energy becomes too unbalanced to a point of interfering with the rest of the Universe, then that species will implode and disintegrate out of existence, because of resisting being in touch with the Neutral Energy of Self-Awareness (which harmonizes the opposite energies in the mind so that we can live in harmony with the Total Quantum Energy Field of Reality). I detect that is what is going on now with our species. So anybody who AWAKENS and goes through a radical change in the foundation of their Emotional Being, then the Humanity that is grounded in Neutrality shall thrive in the Millennium Shift. But, the old mindset of the 'self-centered' mind grounded in bias and conflict will implode like an obsolete dinosaur. So psychological transformation gives birth to a brand new Human species that is energetically balanced and in alignment with the orderly quantum energy field of life. So the old mind will be shed while the new Holistic Human Mind is born. So it doesn't matter what the violent-fragmented mind {ego} says it wants to do to control and/or destroy us, because disorderly energy is only able to attack and destroy disorderly energy {because limited-fragmented energy is contained in its own dimension and can't access the orderly dimension}. If your mind is learning about its emotional 'self', its Observation is Neutral Orderly Energy, which is Unlimited Whole Energy. A mind that is built on a Holistic Foundation cannot be conquered. Only a emotional-being that is divided against itself can be conquered. So you don't need to fight or have an army to protect your life, because Unlimited Neutral 'self' Awareness cannot be destroyed by a finite entity. That's the basic laws of physics. Your immunity to violence is to end violence through Pure Observation, alone. I recommend watching these movies that demonstrate what I just explained: "Zardoz", "The Dark Crystal", "THX 1138". All of these movies demonstrate what J. Krishnamurti means about undergoing a peaceful radical psychological revolution within Human consciousness. But, all minds that hold on to the past ancient traditional way of thinking will wither away (like the Mayan Indians that mysteriously vanished without a trace of their bodies - only their artifacts were left to show that they existed at all). So there's no need to plot to stop the greedy corporate bullies, or the politicians that pass laws to protect them, or the false dogmatic religious imposters, because their core energy is conflict that is disintegrating and degenerating rapidly as The Great Millennium Shift continues to unfold in the Quantum Field of Life. Like Dr. Bohm said in other interviews that there is an unfolding and folding process taking place in the Quantum Energy Field of which our minds are a part. So either we get grounded in the Neutral Energy that lies underneath the entire Quantum Field or else the Black Hole of Disorderly Thinking shall implode into oblivion so as to get out of the way so that the Earth and the Biosphere can restore balance and order, which the disorderly emotional-being {the 'self' or 'ego} has done to our planet for centuries of wars. Thank you.
Valerie Pointer : Thank you for your efforts on clarifying your view. Best being stopped with your 3rd or fourth proclamation. Some absurdities arrive into the writing and never consider these as just being thoughts about thoughts . Symbols & ideas - no matter what - are the expressive force of ego at any rate. Neutral energy quantum field underground cities . . . Nature hasn't equipped the body for such perceptions. Pure fantasy is entering the infinite field of speculations. What a pity coming up with these speculations. You're welcome ❗️ away I ride .•°
@@milktribeca cesarcdx, I believe, meant to say that when you think, say, you need to have more money, you can use thinking to falsify the original thought that created suffering. You don't need more money than you have. Ever. Anything else is a mind-game, delusion.
🪔Amen, we're all one with our fellow dearly beloved Cosmos and all beings ever in evolution🌕Brahma Vihara🥥Tat Tvam Asi🌅Ellam Ondre🎂Sacred Heart📿Pratitya Samutpada🤲Aham Brahmasmi💖Aum Shanti Shanti Shanti🌟🕉
Go to this website www.yousubtitles.com/ Paste the URL of this youtube into the box th-cam.com/video/emAeFuwtelQ/w-d-xo.html Then you've got all the cc
From microcosm to macrocosom. This is why the conflict arises. It should be inside out. Now its everybody seeks in the world and then looks inside. The harsh truth makes you loose your dress. Your assumption of nakedness is so meagre it doesn't take long enough to walk naked. Thus the notion come to the God as a child. Your thoughts purified. Only harsh truth can jolt you back to what is truth. They found all that is unseen. Understanding how things works in the universe. Yet universe surprises them. I remember the child when he was told the world was built on four pillars. The kid went into space to look for it. And here the kid is. Smiling. Kidnis seeing the creation on four pillars. Do you see the dome? See the carpet of blackness. The stars in it. Quiet a marvel. Isn't it. See the two witnesses preaching. Can you see the fort of air. Do you see the many waters. God's kingdom is beautiful. Isn't it. Now you will understand him in yakshroopa.
You should watch more videos of krinshamurti and mooji,you will start getting more clarity and you will reach at a point where by listning to someone you will know by yourself that whether someone is enlightened or not.It is called spiritual progress.
Why people try too hard to avoid philosophy. All that is said is a poor articulation of Hegel's dialectic of recognition with a little salt of an übermensch stat that will lead to some ultimate utopic society.
I don´t think Hegel wrote "Herrschaft und Knechtschaft" for you to be able to dismiss any idea as just a poorer version of the same. It may not even have crossed his mind. I do think the phenomenologists demonstrated they understood it was not a question of getting there first or saying it better. There is much more to non-dualism or "advaita vedanta" than a "poor articulation of Hegel´s dialectic". For one thing, they did get there first, by a couple of thousand years and may be given the benefit of the doubt, solely on that basis, before moving on to Hegel´s excerpt of their thousand years of literature and then dismissing the whole history of the process of the original as derivative. It may not be that people avoid philosophy so hard, it may be more that people have a wider view of philosophy than being exclusively written down by somewhat pale bearded men in what they consider civilised countries.
The self is nothing but a thought. Though creates the self. End though end the self. Obviously ending thought is almost impossible. Thoughts are always there.
We do not want to, or need to, end thought (even the self-serving kind)? It is enough of a miracle to not be a slave to thought forms. First and last freedom! In fact, one need only realize that One is already free from thought and can freely use thought, put it to the best use. Be still (self-serving thoughts cannot). Peace.
@@anDReaS-yp5gw Dear Andreas, we wake up from a night's sleep and as soon as we are aware, what do we notice? What happens? A thought or two, or more come.. Let us denote them as: X, Y, Z, etc.. Now, it is up to us to pick and choose. Do we have to take X and see what it entails? This is almost like pure mathematical logic, accepting some premises and seeing what conclusions they might entail.. I would say, no, we don't have to. We could also choose Y or Z, or any other. We might notice that some of them could conflict with others.. We don't seem to have a choice what the primitive X, Y, Z, etc. are that come to our awareness -- thoughts seem to have an independent reality of their own. But, we do seem to be able to choose which we take seriously, which we believe and which we play with. What about you? Do you notice how thoughts come and how you choose amongst them, and how you play with them? A easy experiment would be to pay attention briefly to your current thought (pick one, articulate it, write it down, or not) and then ask what your next thought would be and then wait for it. What happens in the meantime before the next thought appears? I feel a sense of freedom and peace with an aliveness that's nurturing and energizing. How about you? Let us enjoy the vast inner stillness and each thought that seems to create a ripple in it. The thought is there. It is up to us to make use of it, when that's what is called for, or inquire into its truth -- by that I mean its truth value to you. My experience is that there are many thoughts that appear and if I acknowledge them, but don't take them as necessarily true for me at that moment they bid farewell soon enough. In that sense, we seem to be a wider domain than thoughts in the mind, and hence can feel free from them. Wishing you good cheer whenever any thought enters your awareness. Take care. Be still. Peace.
@@BulentBasaran thank you for your reply! "What happens in the meantime before the next thought appears?" This stillness between thoughts that you are blessed to experience is a rare occurrence for me. Mostly my thoughts are without cessation, but still pretty empty, like a comment commenting on the last comment and basically saying the same thing. I have experienced very brief moments of silence during my "mind training" but as soon as I become aware of the stillness it ceases - maybe because becoming aware of the silence is itself a thought and that gives rise to comments and so on. This leads me to believe that experiencing pure stillness is not really possible, because as soon as I become aware of it, it goes away and all I'm left with is a vague memory of it. Is it really possible? You seem to think so and others do as well. But how? When? What am I supposed to do? Is it just more patience, more training or do I just give up and forget about it?
We have two selves/two minds. We even have two brains. We have egomind and Christmind. False self and real self. Consciousness is the domain of the ego. If you want to identify with christmind you have to depend on Spirit/God Himself and receive his thoughts and guidance rather than trying to figure it out yourself.
@El Pacificador I will have a look. Truth is basically what never change. What is. It altso is what creates as an extension of prime creator, not ego. Ego makes.
Its Quite surprising that there is still not one dislike! Otherwise Bastards will dislike no matter what according to their level of petty lite intelligence.
There are 8 as of 2019.09.04. They are only those who, as of yet, believe that they are who they think they are :-) Eventually, they will come back to reality and may even come back here and switch to like..
Being able to watch such videos in internet is more valuable than finding a treasure box in an adventure.😍
I have saved it already...in case the internet disappears 😀😀
@@ricardogomes9412 🤣🤣🤣
Though i would still be open to treasure
Beautiful soul who understood Krishnamurti as few others did. A wise man in his own right with a real gift for putting things simply and lucidly. There aren't too many of those in the world at this time, I think.
Tosca Z
I agree. 👍
Super interesting to have the point of view of Mr. Bohm on Krishnaji.
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El Pacificador
Thanks.
''Global Truth Project'', from the quick glimpse I gave to its website, has a very unlikable doctoral tone with its obvious statements, but nevertheless could be interesting for some insights. 🤓
Who you know other than him who understood k?
@@Oppositethink
Obviously, his biographer Mary Lutyens is a good resource. ''Freedom from the Known'' is a compilation of essential Krishnamurti teachings by Mrs Lutyens. Krishnamurti has personally approved the book.
The biography by Pupul Jayakar provides an interesting historical context of Krishnamurti's life, but she has understood K. extremely superficially. She could not let go of her huge aristocratic ego.
@@Marcus_Sylvester Thx Mathieu I know already what you say but I am looking if, more than writing a biographie, is there some people as bohm who understood K.
@@Oppositethink
Sadhguru and Osho.
Osho more imo. Osho has been greatly influenced by K. and understood him very well. But you will see that he had not the rigor and austerity of Dr. Bohm. Lol!
Nevertheless, despite his shortcomings, Osho is a super interesting and insightful spiritual teacher.
(''Freedom from the Known'' is not a biography. It is an excellent short synthesis of K. teaching.)
JK and Bohm were so understanding of each other...that they could finish each others sentence during an interview.
What a gent, humble and warm as well as a true philosopher and scientific genius.
Absolutely !
🙏
The humility of David Bohm is the very essence of the flower which meditation blooms into after generosity has captured the heart. I love these guys so much. Thank you Lord.
That's right, Sir!
have question what your output on progress vs movement?
I feel the same way ❤
Transcription of key points:
"If the self were really there then perhaps it would be correct to center on the self because the self would be so important but if the self is a kind of illusion, at least the self as we know it, then to center our thought on something illusory, which is assumed to have supreme importance, is going to disrupt the whole process. It will not only make thought about yourself wrong but it will make thought about everything wrong, so that thought becomes a dangerous and destructive instrument, all around. Because this illusory self, which is really an image, is regarded as all-important, whenever anything about it appears to be threatened, the brain develops a very powerful defense mechanism to try to prevent this from taking place.... If somebody says something which threatens the reality of this whole structure itself then it's as if your life were at stake. The brain, all stops are pulled out and the brain responds with the instinct of self-preservation to absolutely prevent you from considering it. It may just dull the mind or transfer attention somewhere else or make you forget about or find yourself thinking of something else, any number of defenses.
And you see it's clear that when somebody like Krishnamurti comes along and say that this is an illusion or that this isn't real, this defense mechanism is going to be provoked into action, and this becomes the principal difficulty in listening to the communication. Part of the defense is to make us unconscious of it, you see, the major form of defense is simply concealment of what's going on because if we could see what was going on it would be obvious it was an illusion. It's like seeing through the trick of the magician....you may also conceal by denying that it's so and asserting something else. Therefore, we are not conscious certainly of the defense mechanism because this process of concealment itself has to be concealed in order to make it effective and therefore the major part of defense consists of making the whole process unconscious.
Krishnamurti is suggesting, proposing, even saying that-
The self is not the source of thought but rather thought is the source of the self.
You see, we're saying the assumption of the self creates inside a kind of image of the self corresponding to that assumption, with great power, and that image is attributed reality and you get a feeling that it's real. Therefore you form the assumption that there is the self who is the thinker, the source of thought, and there is that which he is thinking about, and besides that, there is the thought which is produced by the thinker which refers to what he is thinking about.
What is being suggested is.... the thought process is real, it's going on in the brain, in the nervous system, and this thought process contains in it the assumption of a thinker who produces thoughts. So it's as it were producing a television program of a thinker producing thought and the mind is watching that program so intently that it takes that to be the reality.
There is a kind of conditioning around the self which is extremely strong because it contains assumptions of absolute necessity. You see, the self is considered to be of something supremely important and whatever it needs is regarded as absolutely necessary, which means it cannot be otherwise, it cannot yield, and therefore it takes first priority and it pushes everything else outside and including even the requirement that thoughts should be correct and true. And therefore it immediately starts self-deception going and that is why thought becomes dangerous because if thought deceives itself it's really very dangerous.
I think the ultimate purpose of K's work was stated very early in his life, which was to free humanity from the destructive conditioning we've been talking about.
This conditioning around self-centered thought is really an enslavement. An enslavement to absurdity, to destruction, to unhappiness, sorrow. No other kind of freedom means anything unless we are free from that.
And therefore I think that he felt that once man was free from that, the way would be open to creative unfoldment in all sorts of directions."
Thank you so much for this "Transcript of key points". Dr. Bohm talked so fast, I was having trouble writing down those key points for my own consideration.
Many thanks!
Thanks a lot. Now things fall in place.
Excellent transcript..
Valuable transcript thank you
I see no reason why something cannot be both an illusion and real. Being an illusion makes it real, it´s its link to reality. While illusion is our only link to reality, since we only perceive the model of it. It is a distinction that doesn´t really mean something. So the self is only important as long as you focus on it. Like anything you focus on. But still the point stands, the produced behaviour and thinking when focussing on the self is not helpful, except to the self.
Due to greed and jealousy in the profession of physics, Bohm as marginalized. Regardless, he was perhaps the greatest physicist who has ever lived, even surpassing his mentor, Einstein. Bohm figured out that consciousness - the totality of all there is - is the singular movement of all of life out of which all occurs and in which all returns.
Beautiful Human Beings Jiddu and David. ❤️☮️❤️☮️❤️❤️❤️☮️☮️☮️
Krishnamurti uses difficult language but once you get it...you u understand...but this guy's vocabulary is very hard to understand but once you give attention to it....it is the most scientific as it can get....he is not just blurting out something, he has thought this through
@JSavic Because, it cannot be understood. He didn't understand it either :-) One can only live it. Be still. Live freely. Peace.
@Nour083 Unfortunately, there are many things wrong with what you have said, and many things wrong with the evidence you provided.
First of all, Bohm had depression for all of his life, before he even met Krishnamurti. Secondly, Bohm had similar theories of how the mind worked as Krishnamurti did, far before he met the person. This is why they got along.
It is a complete disrespect to the person who suffered that you narrow and simplify this depression down to just "He had depression, therefore what he said must be wrong". Depression is so much more complex than this. You can be totally right, everything in your life can be okay, but you can still be depressed. There are so many causes, many of which are biological than psychological. That is a big the reason why older people are more prone to depression - imbalance in hormones, brain chemicals and such. Did you ever even consider this? Have you studied the basics of depression and neuroscience? I doubt it. Your views are limited, your understanding of depression is surface level. Your comments are misguided. I am sorry but that is the truth.
One cannot enlighten one's way out of depression. Depression is DIFFERENT from normal suffering which the Buddha, Jesus, or even Krishnamurti talks about. One has to be free of depression to walk the path of enlightenment (a figure of speech, it is said there is no path). I know this, as a person who has suffered from it long before learning of Krishnamurti or Bohm or the Buddha or anyone.
The rest of your comments, I cannot even believe. It seems you haven't even looked into the history of Krishnamurti. You haven't even taken the liberty to look into his life before making such comments. The man was the head, the poster child, the "world teacher" as they claimed, of one of the largest spiritual organisations in the world at the time. All this amidst a surge of spiritual hunger throughout the world. Tell me, if such a man was chasing money, fame, success, why would he choose to disband such an organisation? What an absurd claim this is. He did not even
You choose to defend legendary and almost mythical figures like Jesus, Buddha, Muhammad and Krishna. Trust me, if they were born in more modern times, where the world could scrutinise their past and personal lives, you would not be thinking much different about them than you do about Krishnamurti. It's only because the world has idolised and immortalised these figures. Each religion's followers have wiped all the blemishes from these people's lives, treating them as gods who made no mistakes. It is not even known whether many of them are historically accurate as people - like Jesus and Krishna. But you do not see this. You choose to believe whatever they feed to you. I do not think negatively of the messages of Jesus, Buddha and whoever. They were enlightened beings in and of themselves. But you idolise them as the religious do. You believe every word they say. Quite childish. Like Krishnamurti, they were all prone to mistakes.
All in all, I think you are wrong clearly lol. Your evidence is quite lacking. You spread lies. One should not idolise Krishnamurti - like any teacher - but one must see the truth of what he was and tell it as is. And what you said were lies. I hope you can be less biased and find the truth.
I think this is the major difficulty in understanding Krishnamurti, he uses some key terms in an unconventional way, like *attention* , *intelligence* , *mind* , *brain* , *aloneness* , *meditation* etc. Once you understand these key terms, it becomes much easier. Bohm is also really good at pointing this out, he clears up those terms when they come up in the many dialogues between K. and Bohm. Listening to those has helped me immensely.
David Bohm + Karl Pribram = Two Gents that should be listened to more frequently by more people 🙏🙏🙏🕉️🕉️🕉️
And obviously, Krishnamurti
6
Dr. Bohm explains in the video interview that the mind is concealing itself from itself by being unconscious of what it is doing; it is playing a trick on itself like a magician does with smoke and mirrors. One of the ways to get around this problem is to begin by studying thought through watching movies and view the movie characters as 'egos' (which in fact they are). Instead of viewing each character as a person, think of all the characters as different emotional responses. But also realize that what you are watching is exactly how your mind functions too. Notice how you are prone to emotionally sympathize with certain characters and condemn other characters. You are exposing, uncovering your concealed 'ego' and for the first time you are detecting it. Then notice how you want to correct your responses. The urge to correct is your conditioning protecting its illusion or belief mechanism. The point is to merely examine and learn through the examination while you watch the movie. Notice your tendency to 'like' & 'dislike' what is going on in the movie. Notice your tendency to emotionally identify with certain characters. The characters that you 'dislike' reflect your hidden subconscious which contains ALL of your thoughts and feelings that you have rejected and suppressed into the dungeon of your emotional-being. Your mind is AWAKENING to itself and may at first feel frightened of what it is finding out. Don't worry; that is a normal reaction that most people go through upon AWAKENING to the 'self'. You are beginning to learn about the content of your emotional-being (your consciousness that is rooted in bias). The moment you are aware of bias, it ends, without you trying to end bias. Bias or emotional choosing maintains itself by seeking to try to change itself into unbias, which is a trick the mind plays to hang on to its 'self-centeredness'. By merely watching the movement of the 'self', it is unraveling, unfolding like a flower, then it dies away, naturally, without force or opposition of willpower. So when you watch movies you are watching the 'self', if you watch it HOLISTICALLY, without dividing and taking sides, emotionally. If you do that, then just pay attention to that movement, too. Nothing is a distraction when you are paying attention. I have done this for years and it all came together when I would listen to a J. Krishnamurti video after watching the movie, then what he described began making more sense, to me, and I was able to actually SEE the entire 'self', not just in the movie but in myself, too. Because the 'self' operates the same in all people, no matter your race, economic status or cultural background. If you venture out further, you watch movies that are about ALL races, cultures, political, religious and you will see that behind ALL OF THEM is 'EGO'/'SELF'. Then you will see in the mirror reflected out of watching those movies for the purpose of DETECTING/EXPOSING the hidden 'self' that the common ground on which Humanity stands is the same thing. But, when you AWAKEN, you naturally transition out of that disorderly 'self-centered' dimension, altogether, without trying to struggle to get away from the 'self'. All forms of struggling to break free from the 'self' only perpetuates, reinforces it. You can watch how that happens when you look at the 'egos' driving the characters in the movie or T.V. series. If you watch a T.V. series I suggest that you only do it without commercials. I watch through Netflix. But Amazon offers movies to watch too. Commercials are pulling at your mind to influence it to buy, buy, buy. So I was watching "Daredevil" TV series which shows how the 'villain' and 'hero' are one in the same if you watch how they both are rooted in their 'self-centeredness' -- neither one was grounded in Neutral self-awareness. Both sides are seeking solutions through conflict, which is limited energy. Limited energy can never bring about Physical Security, and the environment is being abused by both the 'villain' and 'hero'. Look at it like a math equation: villain equals a negative-one; hero equals a positive-one; but if you view them as 2 sides of the same coin then they cancel each other out to equaling ZERO-POINT ENERGY [negative-one plus positive-one equals ZERO]. But, if you CHOOSE heads/hero to emotionally favor and tails/villain to condemn or visa versa, then instead of ending up at the harmonious ZERO-POINT, you end up with either limited positive-one or limited negative-one, which is contradiction (irrationality). So like a scientist studying something OBJECTIVELY (without bias), study the emotional 'self' that way while you Observe the 'Observer' both in the characters as well as your own 'observer'. You may begin to notice that without any effort, the 'observer' dissolves as it starts to realize that the 'Observer IS The Observed' so there's nothing to CHOOSE at all. Conflict in the mind then ends, naturally. By examining the characters' 'self' in the movies or TV shows it makes it much simpler to understand the descriptions that J. Krishnamurti or Dr. Bohm conveys. Then it begins to be a LIVING REALITY, not just a bunch of words.
Hello Valerie. I have read what you have written and ressonate with krishnamutry bohm and your words, can I contact you for more advice on exercises that you did or do in observing oneself? email address is mintecorpactiv@yahoo.ro .thank you uploader for this short and concentrated insight :-)
i don't give advice. it weakens a person to follow anyone. I study and examine what J.K. and Bohm point out. There is no following in examination or investigation. Real investigation is a journey one must take alone so that one can independently stand on ones own feet. It is each person's responsibility to be a light unto oneself. That means to walk alone observe alone. And learn from the observation itself. Nothing else is necessary. Nobody helped me to understand myself. And its suppose to be uncomfortable (just like childbirth). There's nothing wrong with being uncomfortable, for that disturbance awakens your own understanding. Most people don't want to be disturbed, emotionally. That is why they are trapped by conditioned automatic obedient thinking. But this is not advice. I am stating the facts as they are. Emotions say "I like that or I don't like that." It's very simple to watch your reactions. Then listen to what J.K. says. Then you can see the false nature of your mind because it wants to choose to run away from anything it finds disturbing. The challenge is are you free to watch your emotional responses without trying to improve them? That is not a question meant for you to answer to me. That question is put forth for you to probe yourself. We are not here to answer to each other. We are here to learn about our emotional being so that we can function in harmony and stop destroying ourselves and the world around ourselves. So long as the mind remains in the dark about what it is doing, it must keep on being irrational and destructive. So there is no need to lean on me or anyone else. That makes your mind weak. It is like the mother bird kicking its young out of the nest so that they can spread their wings and fly all by themselves. That is strength; that is unsentimental genuine Love. Thank you.
you like parrots!
Valerie Pointer love you x
when i started to little by little realize this i couldnt stop laughing, i cant remember the last time i have laughed like that and couldnt stop myself
This video should be shown in every psychology class in the world..
It does tend to make the contemporary psychology class look like the tip of the iceberg.. Haha
@El Pacificador I read about half of it and I don't belive that it's the truth. It says something along the lines that you were the one that evloved from microb to human. That is nto the truth. It implies that there is some kind of permanent soul. That is not the truth and if you do some meditation you can see it for your self. There is no you conecting one moment to the other. There are just processes that are rolling along.
Psychology is a Racket for Jews..Allegedly
yoooyoyooo - And who is experiencing those processes as they roll along?
Experiences exist. Experiences logically entail an experiencer. Denial of the experiencing self (that which is the subject of your experiences) is the most insane denial in human history, IMHO.
If we deny that we’re experiencing selves, then you must deny that you’re having any experiences at all. But the existence of our own experiences is the one thing we can be 100.0% certain of...
@@yoooyoyooo so who seed those changes?
@@BugRib right. You can call it soul, conciusness, me, self, whatever
This goes right into the source of all human problems.
One of the Great theoretical physicists who has simplified how thought and self centred activities operates in mankind,s consciousness from the teachings of J Krishnamurti.
Our sinful nature. We’re doomed from the start. Only one way out of this hell and I know a guy. ... JESUS the Christ. 😉😂💯💯
@@SethMacLeod95 lol xD
yes! krishnamurti was only talking, he didnt helped people in real sense, whats why in older years you can hear some angriness and bitterness of old man. he didnt helped people to find soul and be happy. who helped in real and uplifted souls, in your list i would add - Ramakrishna
Wow, trust a quantum physicist to actually get it. I notice a lot of people who are objectively great at something have a lot less ego than you would think. They experience things as happening by itself rather than be caused by them. And this as true for painting, sculpting as for thinking. This also clearly illustrates there is really no need to stop thinking. There is a need to stop thinking about the self.
"...the problem is the source of the self... the thought process contains within it the assumption of the thinker.." minute 4:00 "self-deception... the conditioning around the self-centered thought is really an enslavement..."
The self is a survival program in the brain. Because it is just a program, it is not alive, but unfortunately, the brain comes to identify itself and all its memories as being this program. This identification results in the brain investing enormous energy in promoting this program to others and defending it from all perceived psychological threats. When the brain realizes that the self is just a program, it ceases wasting energy.
1
Why is the 'self' so bad? if the 'self' were really substantive, then there would be no problem in being 'self-centered'. However, the fact is that psychological or emotional thought projected from its past emotional experiences imagines whatever it wants to be and then defends that imaginary projected state. For instance, people are programmed to emotionally identify with their nation which gives one a sense of SUPERIORITY to other nations. And, it magnifies a sense of separateness and power. So when your so-called nation is condemned, one is ready to kill to defend its honor. The nation is an ideological concept born out of 'self-centered' thought to get masses of people to do whatever the rulers wish. That is why all nations make it mandatory to indoctrinate children into mental attachment to their country. This makes an emotional fragmentation which breeds hatred and brutality and inevitable warfare among these emotional groups. This dividing people is deliberately done in order to conquer the minds of the masses. It is easy to trick people into going to war over emotional insults toward a group that you identify with. That group can be racial, religious, gangs, gender, sex orientation, political parties etc. Now there is great emotional pressure to entice people to choose between the corporate powers that are poisoning our environment (with the governments' permission) and the so-called 'internet truth movement' journalists who are ranting against this tyranny. The 'self' or 'ego' thrives on fragmentation & violence/conflict. It begins by picking a side to emotionally identify with (just like choosing a team to emotionally rally behind). Before each and every war, this process is done. The politicians give highly emotional speeches that choose a group to scapegoat. After a period time, the masses choose a side to emotionally attach to. Then the brutality and bloodshed commences. Then our planet is badly damaged by these wars carried on in the name of emotional-superiority and domination of one group against another group. We are on the brink of annihilation because the poisons spreading around the world is tearing down our ecosystem at an alarming rate. There is a crucial necessity to shed our old way of thinking about the 'self' and start to study ourselves and detect exactly what the 'self-centered' thought process is up to, not to oppose the 'self'. Any opposition only serves to strengthen emotional 'self-centered' defensiveness. The act of observation of the 'self' is neither a positive nor negative action; it is NEUTRAL! Observation alone is outside of the 'self' because it is not born of memory. Instead, Observation, Attention or Awareness are strictly an action done in each present moment. Seeing now what you emotionally feel and think whenever you listen to what another person says or does exposes the hidden 'self' and casts a light on it. Just to be aware is the Neutral Action that allows the 'self' to bloom like a flower and tell its story and then naturally withers away, if you don't interfere with the listening/observing.
I agree. Where the self is... love is not. Where the self is not... love is
In matters of the emotional-being agreement or disagreement is irrelevant. It's a matter of actual perception of the fact. Agreement-Disagreement is based on Liking-Disliking what is being pointed out. LOVE is Unbiased Attention to 'What Is' actually taking place in ones emotional state of mind. I keep saying 'emotional' in order to distinguish from the (left-brain) mechanical intellectual thought process that deals with the mundane operations that deal with daily tasks and errands. The 'emotional-being' (right-brain) is based on personal/subjective thoughts and feelings rooted in traditional concepts, beliefs, opinions, images about the sense of 'self-importance'. IT is the one that chooses to Agree-Disagree about psychological matters. This is why I said that it is irrelevant to Agree-Disagree in psychological matters. Either one is in touch with the fact of ones emotional responses (be they positive/comforting or negative/disturbing) or one is not in touch. Thought can only escape from any state of mind that it disagrees with by believing it is the opposite. So if, for instance, thought truly dislikes what is being pointed out, it can hide in a verbal assertion that it "Agrees", when in fact, it dislikes and rejects what is being said. Because, the 'self' desires to be viewed by others as being 'virtuous'. When one is honest with oneself, then one will see ones initial emotional response without trying to improve it. For the one who 'improves' how one feels or thinks, it is the initial feeling or thought that is trying to disguise/escape from that initial state of being. It is the Neutral Energy of Perceiving 'What Is" actually taking place in ones mind from each present moment that naturally ends thought. And, where emotional-thought ends, LOVE begins. Thank you.
man has two selfs
Truth
Pretty good, thanks
Thoughts of any kind are not an obstacle to realizing that which they appear inside of as
undirected and unbounded consciousness that is awake to itself , plus one can think any thought they want ,threatening or pleasant and not disturb that infinite lively silence .
It is true that when one begins to experience Pure Consciousness for the first time/s it seems as though thoughts are indirect conflict with stillness and to a certain degree based on how
identified we are with these thoughts there will be a slight sense of them being an obstacle .
But , quickly ,as we become identifies with the pure wakefulness , our thoughts become less and less of an issue and are found to be occurring simultaneously with the stillness. ❤️
Brilliant! Thanks so much for this!
Perhaps one shouldn't even be identified with anything. Any form of identification is an image produced by the self.
caution, bad spelling above .😂
yes, the only thing though, which is fundamental, is that stillness is not an occurrence as thoughts are. Stillness is the eternal 'background' from where thoughts occur and where they wind up, whether processed by thinking or not.
Our existence as a separate entity is a cosmic dream. The house of body has no inhabitant, only an apparent tenant. To some the realization of this fact is enlightenment, and to others, a nightmare you cannot wake up from.
Yes, to me it is all nightmare. I find myself realizing all the false implications of the self as an independent reality, but I am not able to bear the fact. There is a strong withholding, an act of ego-protection. The next day I go on with my miserable life trying to project my future will be secure, I will have money, this and that, self-improvement, trying to have a pleasant self-image. Then after a while I feel miserable again, struck by the futility of it all, and come back to realizing the deceptive and destructive nature of self-centered activity. Thought is caught in an infinite loop of realization versus withholding.
@@kooroshrostami27 Stop believing every thought. It never ever reflects the truth of every moment because thought cannot experience anything. Try to see this. All the mind does is judge what is experienced after the fact. Most of it is negative mental chatter anyway trying to protect itself but ends up doing the opposite. Be gentle with yourself. Ask for divine guidance when it gets hard or you feel like your taking 3 steps back. It ok. We all have similar struggles in life.
@@jpm408 Yes, all the chattering, the rumination ever does is exacerbating disorder, it is self-defeating. Thank you, much love.
Thank God for this mind and Krishnamurtis sights, dogma is one of our biggest problems today, Wittgenstein spoke of the inability of spoken words actually communicating our feelings and thoughts due to context and education Bohm has the articulation helping us get a glimpse of the chimera we are trying to make stand still for security, my mind starts to dissipate just trying to express the my thoughts
I used to think I understood English... Nope, not now. 🙂
2
The illusion of the 'self' is based on physical security. The 'self' rationalizes its 'self' emotional defenses by saying, "I must use my memory of knowledge to nuture and protect my biological survival. So I must also use my 'emotional memory' to sustain my traditional beliefs handed down to me from my ancestors, too." This is an illusory argument because when people use knowledge in order to try to reinforce emotional fulfillment through their beliefs, ideals, prejudices, etc., they must go to war, and war DESTROYS physical security in the world. Especially now with the advanced Weapons of Mass Destruction (like depleted uranium weapons that spread ionized radiation around the world increasing cancers and other brain damage diseases), it is threatening the existence of life on Earth. This is due to the fact that the 'self-centered' (ego) has overlooked the fact that IT is the ultimate W.M.D. that created all of the W.M.D.'s and has failed to understand the falseness of what it is doing on an emotional level. It is the hardest thing for emotional-thought to investigate itself, objectively without bias to see how it deceives itself into believing that "physical security" and "psychological security" are the same thing. When thought chases after "psychological security", it puts at risk "physical security". And, the 'self' refuses to acknowledge that fact. It insists that "I" must have "psychological security", at all cost. This is what makes thought a lethal poison in the world by not understanding where knowledge/thought is useful in mechanical affairs, but is highly destructive in emotional matters.
Doesn't the delusion start much earlier though? The very notion of security is delusory if you think about it. Security always implies permanence. If I know I have food today, that's not security. If I know I have food permanently, that would be security. But this is impossible, everything could happen at every point, an accident, disease, a crisis, an act of violence. Individual life itself isn't permanent. It seems that the demand for security is absurd because it is essentially insecurity. I could be in the most protected condition, live in the safest country, as healthy as can be, surrounded by a loyal wife, family, friends etc., there would still be that distant but very deep anxiety of knowing that I would eventually have to lose all of that, no? So it appears that the act of looking for security is born out of total delusion.
Indeed.
Love you K sir and Bohm sir.❤
02;36 "therefore we are not conscious of the defence mechanism because this process of concealment itself has to be concealed in order to make it effective "..
No one is free except he who has known the truth that is spoken of here
A great many people think they are thinking when they are merely
rearranging their prejudices.
🍀
David Bohm
Wow! Bohm here delivers a wonderful explanation of the nature of the self and its relationship with thought. He is definitely more clear than Krishnamurti.
Jorgeruiz definitely more concise
Yes, krisna had the insight. He undertood everything, but he couldn't explain as easy as Bohm (as a scientist) does it here...
I have immense respect for Mr.Bohm, he seems to explain certain things more vividly than Krishnamurti.
Each one of them , had their own gift, and together they took it to another level ♥️
@@luyanuria Agreed, Krishnamurti had the insight, but Bohm's language is more accessible and coherent. K. kind of had his own language which was somewhat cryptic at time. Bohm translated it to a more common language, and he kept the depth of meaning intact.
A great short video; thanks for posting; I met Krishnamurti briefly in 1985.
U did 🙏
I wish I could 😊
@@Maviz007 And indeed, you can. His essence (and yours) is not a body. Just see through the body of the next person you meet. That would be a true meeting of "souls."
@@BulentBasaran How wonderful you kindly share these precious thoughts. Blessings
thank you for this ETERNAL TIME PIECE.. mouthpiece. AGAIN THANK YOU FOR THE EDIT AND HARD WORK. KEEP CARE.
this is very similar to the philosophy of emptiness from Buddhism. thank you for this.
Yeah what is said about human psyche is virtualy the same, but K. added that getting involved with any kind of belief system, method, group, teacher will inevitably involve a projection of self. I think that point is a crucial addition by K., reject all schools of thought first.
The self and the image are like the wave and the atom.
@El Pacificador The statement makes sense. Perfect sense in a reductionist sense of awareness. This is observable.
@El Pacificador I looked at your site and it appears you have good intentions. The awareness, or ultimate reality that is spoken too in a manner of speaking is commonly understood in many, many circles. It's been around since the upanishads. The awareness surrounding these realizations are still only that in a global sense. Some who are aware use insight for personal gain . Others just speak to it. Still others use their individual insight to help others, as best they can while managing their own awareness. One might consider the notion/statement of managing ones awareness and it's implied meaning regarding awareness.
@David Cardy ok
@David Cardy the statement I made is directly related to the video and what's being said. If you don't see this then you are not understanding within the context of the video claims and others speaking to it. If you see it differently then state so. So far you have told us you're pissed. Can you add something that is outside your own life perspective. This is the nature of what's being said and talked about, it's applicable to everybody, it is not an ideology. These comments are just observations of a reality the video guests speak to.
This point at which awareness/thought intersect and an understanding of how this unfolds. It's difficult to articulate intricacies about something in a comment box. Getting pissed at people and in essence letting us all know your mad doesn't do be or help a conversation. Outside of no body continuing to give you any time other than this time is what your participation will likely yield.
I like that simile very much. Although I think you mean to refer to wave and photon. The duality of light behaving as both wave and particle-stream when it is observed (according to the Copenhage interpretation of the double slit experiment) seems to very much mimick the relationship between self, image and focus. When focussed upon, the self is an image (particlestream). But leave it alone and the results we witnes can only be the work of an undivided self (wave)
Sometimes I don’t know if people like this are talking about something you already know but they have a way of talking which makes you strain to absorb what they’re saying. I’ve heard all of these words, the self, the mind, the soul, conscious, consciousness, unconscious, I wouldn’t want to assume I understand their meaning inside and out. Gurdjieff said that one of the problems with people is that we think we understand each other, but he was one to talk, his work isn’t easy to follow and he even said himself that he didn’t teach directly. The way I look at it is, if you’re going to try and teach people be clear, yes, there’s a time when you should make people figure things out themselves. “In the beginners mind there are many possibilities, in the experts mind there are few”.
I like your ramble, Ryan. If people are unable to understand each other, then this answer must be an illusion. But if all is illusion, what is the use of the distinction between illusion and reality? And of course: banana flavoured columns of wintertime differentials.
Learn the art of listening the art of seeing. Only a silent mind, knows truth. Thought is limited and conditoned by the past. This guy admired Krishnamurti but did not listen. Please listen to Jiddu Krishnamurti. He is the real deal. If you are new to Him. I recommend watching his talk to the public in Amsterdam. Its a simple and beautiful talk. But all his talks are very simple if you learn to "listen"✌❤✌
thoughts are psychological entities generated in the human mind, where they develop and even acquire a life of their own.
Isn´t everything?
"No other freedom means anything unless you are free from that' mic drop......
Unfortunately, I get that.
listen ug Krishnamurti only one time
Great wisdom
Speakers and saints come and go but his guy is the atom Bohm, what with alongside Jiddu they as one pointed my being to the truth that only a few will experience. God bless Bohm and Jiddu they are of course equal to all, including Christ and Buddha. : )
My God...what a truth to be spoken...
Thoughts about the self are dangerous or unhelpful at least - primarily because there can never be any objectivity.
Yes! And it is nice to remember that all thought might be thought about self. Maybe thought didn´t come into being to be helpful. I see the self as an emergent behaviour of a sufficiently complex interlinkedness of neurons. Thinking about it is a wonderful past-time. Not thinking about it and acting on it, can be dangerous. Danger is there, only when there is a self for the danger to be dangerous for. Therefor all thoughts about danger are thoughts that assume a self. They are ultimately thoughts about the self.
Judging thoughts to be helpful is also interesting. Helpful to whom?
But I like your point, I´d only like to stretch it to: there can be no objectivity.
Brilliant summary of nondual experience
Can you please tell the exact tittle of this DVD and where one can find it?
The personality self may be an illusion, but surely the experiencer self can’t be denied.
I (the experiencer) experience, therefore I (the experiencer) am.
DAVID BOHM EVERY GOOD CIENTIFICO AND HUMANISTA.
Food for thought 👏👏👏
I like the admittance that some form of conditioning is necessary. It's inevitable. Perhaps we'll realize one day that all of what is condemned as a problem, has been due to wrongful usage of the thing.
This is exactly what Eckhart Tolle teaches - to see reality clearly we must learn to escape the grip of the ego.
There is no ego to escape from, there can be no learning to escape from ego, all learnings are based on memory and conditioning. The message of realised people is to point out that there is no self already, to realise that is to be the real.
@@sanketsaxena2040 JUST WOW
Please can we talk some more?
@@summerbreeze5115 yes we can
There's nothing well defined. There will never be a perfect world, never! And that's the beauty of it, we don't need a perfect world.
@Johan Van de voet by contemplating and watching
THOUGHT IS THE SOURCE OF THE SELF 😄
ONES EYE JUST POPPED OUT. SO EASY TO UNDERSTAND ALONG WITH DANIEL KAHNEMAN "THINKING FAST AND SLOW AND ANNA LEMBKE "DOPAMINE NATION." ANY QUESTIONS? #MORENOMORE #KNOWMEMESHERE
So it seems there are two things going on simultaneously.
1. There is what is happening call it the process of life happening around us.
And
2. The thought process, playing a TV program internally for the mind of what is happening outside. And the mind watches this program as if it is really happening outside and the program is a reality. So, thought takes over and mislead the brain or the mind or the illusive self.
Amazing
Thought creates the thinker
I THINK DAVID LEARNED A LOT FROM K, AS HE EXPLAINS IT REALLY WELL AND IN DEPTH.
So Krishnamurti posits that humanity is essentially a hive-mind but each individual has convinced itself psychologically it is actually a separate entity
Post-perceptually; yes. Technically; no
a more accurate way of explaining it would be the way david bohm just explained it... that was the shortcut
I think what happens is that we find our bodies to be separate and intuitively infer that our minds must be different entities as well. Like we infer that every brain has its own mind when actually mind is univeral and shared by all brains.
This is all you need listen understand inquire what JK & Bohm is saying is the key 🔑 🔐 to unlock illusionary self created thought so can live a life of wholeness with true intelligence & compassion which is free from any conditioning
Self deceiving thoughts are really dangerous you can see that in numerous dictators that humanity had.
Any video or audio recommendation to alleviate pain and suffering???
All suggestions would be heartily welcome.
Sourabh There are excellent videos, check out, Nisargadatta Maharaj, Ranjit Maharaj, Poonja Papaji and Sri Ramana Maharishi. Paul Brunton has written excellent books on his experiences. Hope it helps.
@@suethompson6497 ,
Gratitude. 🙏...
muito grato...
Truly 😑💚🙏
JK said this exact sort of thing beautifully.
Legend.
Brilliant
"Passionate mind" Joel Kramer
At about 5:15 he considers thought preceding itself. In reality this can not be. However thought is subject to subterfuge. Our current reality is starting to explicitly reveal this to our senses. We have been subject as #Citizen to this.
thank you
Great person
The brain is always in control. It creates an image of I and then creates thought to find that I and finally it changes certain modalities of function to convince that the thought found the I. By doing all this, it ensures its survival, while the body and mind are left thinking they are enlightened. All is well in the end, except for those who lost all their money because their brains just refused to play that silly game. 99.9% watching on the sideline cheer on and tell the whole world their ancestors knew something so amazing.that would reveal all the past lives and history to the brain that played that silly game. Yet, none of the enlightened brain never tell us what they found; they say we have to play the game all by ourselves.
The thinking argues with itself and agrees with itself. The trick is to use other tools than thinking.
Yes. As we become the observer of thought, it begins, the awakening.
~♥~
This is Gold
It made me think about Artificial intelligence GPTs which always give an answer, even if not "true", making it up if necessary.
7
People always ask, "How is my psychological AWAKENING going to change the collective consciousness to stop the impending dangers threatening the world?" Quantum Physics discussed by Dr. Bohm's "The Implicate Order" touches upon this issue, because it reveals that underlying the entire Universe is a Holistic Energy Field that all forms of matters are grounded in. For the most part, the Universe is Orderly Balanced Energy, because of the Neutral Energy permeating it. However, the Human mind has divorced itself from Neutral Energy. So the 'ego' is existing in its own Black Hole vacuum, because it is grounded in finite energy fragments. So a mind that is out of touch with observing its entire self (meaning ALL of its feelings and thoughts) is in a perpetual state of DIS-integration, and degeneration. The mind that examines itself and is TOTALLY AWAKE to its emotional movements is grounded in the same orderly energy as the Quantum Field of the Universe (Uni- means ONE energy field) that is grounded in the same Neutral Energy (which is the same energy found in the nucleus of all atoms). It is that empty space that permeates all of reality. However, the Human mind has found a way to divorce itself from the empty space of Neutrality, which is why there is NO balance in Human consciousness which causes violence that serves Emotional Illusory Fulfillments and puts the biological body in harms way as it fights war after war. Now then... When a person AWAKENS to this fatal error of emotional gratification, its energy transforms through the Neutral Observation of the limited energy known as the 'ego' or 'self'. Notice in the atom that the electrons {negative energy} and protons {positive energy} are 2 sides of the same coin that would seek to annihilate each other if it were not for these opposite energies being grounded in the Unlimited Neutral Energy of the neutron. Neutral Energy has no opposite form of energy so it is WHOLE unto itself. Zero is not a fragment or a number. You can divide it, multiply it, subtract it or add it and yet, it still remains ZERO! Neutral energy has no measurable qualities so it is infinite empty neutral-charged space permeating the entire Universe {which is the Quantum Energy Field of all existence}. This Creative Empty Neutral Space gives balance to the finite opposite energies (positive-negative). But in the Human mind, there is no space, which is why its energy is degenerating and unbalanced and leads to neurotic behavior. So when your mind begins to be attentive to its emotional responses, it is the energy in the act of attention that brings Creative Empty Neutral Space into the mind which the emotion folds into after it has fully expressed itself (just like a storm weather system expressing itself and then withers away). Our thought is just like various climate conditions. And ALL climate conditions must be allowed to express themselves or else geological imbalances will take place. There is nothing wrong with disturbances in the mind (just like an earthquake, or thunder storm or volcanic eruptions are necessary for balancing the energy in the biosphere). Just because you feel upset doesn't mean there is something wrong with you. Those feelings and thoughts are there for the mind to OBSERVE so that they can bloom like a flower and naturally die away afterwards. There is NO NEED FOR EMOTIONAL 'SELF 'CONTROL, because it is the Neutral Energy Of Observation that brings harmony to the positive or negative feelings or thoughts (which are opposite fragments born out of each other). Anyway... The Millennium Shift is giving our minds one last chance to shed our Emotional Programming {of choosing 1 side of of emotional responses to cling onto and reject the opposite side, which is psychological fragmentation} or else our species will become extinct. Because in the Quantum Field, no species can be allowed to destroy the Universal Energy Field. And the 'Collective Subconscious' is using bio-chemical, HAARP, Chemtrails, Nano airborne mind-control tech, Techtonic Warfare, Weapons of Mass Destruction in an ongoing process of destroying the external Earth so that the elite class can depopulate our species, tag them, put them in cages and rule them inside the Earth where they have built underground cities. But they have failed to understand that Life is Holistic so by disrupting the Earth's external energy fields, that may be damaging the internal Earth's energy fields, too. And, that may also go on to disrupt other energy fields in other dimensions that are interconnected with our planet, and whatnot. So whenever a species' energy becomes too unbalanced to a point of interfering with the rest of the Universe, then that species will implode and disintegrate out of existence, because of resisting being in touch with the Neutral Energy of Self-Awareness (which harmonizes the opposite energies in the mind so that we can live in harmony with the Total Quantum Energy Field of Reality). I detect that is what is going on now with our species. So anybody who AWAKENS and goes through a radical change in the foundation of their Emotional Being, then the Humanity that is grounded in Neutrality shall thrive in the Millennium Shift. But, the old mindset of the 'self-centered' mind grounded in bias and conflict will implode like an obsolete dinosaur. So psychological transformation gives birth to a brand new Human species that is energetically balanced and in alignment with the orderly quantum energy field of life. So the old mind will be shed while the new Holistic Human Mind is born. So it doesn't matter what the violent-fragmented mind {ego} says it wants to do to control and/or destroy us, because disorderly energy is only able to attack and destroy disorderly energy {because limited-fragmented energy is contained in its own dimension and can't access the orderly dimension}. If your mind is learning about its emotional 'self', its Observation is Neutral Orderly Energy, which is Unlimited Whole Energy. A mind that is built on a Holistic Foundation cannot be conquered. Only a emotional-being that is divided against itself can be conquered. So you don't need to fight or have an army to protect your life, because Unlimited Neutral 'self' Awareness cannot be destroyed by a finite entity. That's the basic laws of physics. Your immunity to violence is to end violence through Pure Observation, alone. I recommend watching these movies that demonstrate what I just explained: "Zardoz", "The Dark Crystal", "THX 1138". All of these movies demonstrate what J. Krishnamurti means about undergoing a peaceful radical psychological revolution within Human consciousness. But, all minds that hold on to the past ancient traditional way of thinking will wither away (like the Mayan Indians that mysteriously vanished without a trace of their bodies - only their artifacts were left to show that they existed at all). So there's no need to plot to stop the greedy corporate bullies, or the politicians that pass laws to protect them, or the false dogmatic religious imposters, because their core energy is conflict that is disintegrating and degenerating rapidly as The Great Millennium Shift continues to unfold in the Quantum Field of Life. Like Dr. Bohm said in other interviews that there is an unfolding and folding process taking place in the Quantum Energy Field of which our minds are a part. So either we get grounded in the Neutral Energy that lies underneath the entire Quantum Field or else the Black Hole of Disorderly Thinking shall implode into oblivion so as to get out of the way so that the Earth and the Biosphere can restore balance and order, which the disorderly emotional-being {the 'self' or 'ego} has done to our planet for centuries of wars. Thank you.
Valerie Pointer : Thank you for your efforts on clarifying your view.
Best being stopped with your 3rd or fourth proclamation.
Some absurdities arrive into the writing and never consider these as just being thoughts about thoughts .
Symbols & ideas - no matter what - are the expressive force of ego at any rate.
Neutral energy quantum field underground cities . . .
Nature hasn't equipped the body for such perceptions. Pure fantasy is entering the infinite field of speculations.
What a pity coming up with these speculations.
You're welcome ❗️
away I ride
.•°
Did you write a book where I can get all these chapters at once or do I have to keep scrolling?
David Bohm on Krishnamurti and the problem of thought.
I AM therefore I Think! Or I Think therefore I AM?
I AM THAT I AM.
I am thought therefore I am.
- Huxley
Well said
Possibly the only man intelligent enough to understand JK.
*Thought can be your Freedom, but It can also be your Prison.*
cesarcdx thought can't never be your freedom....
@@milktribeca cesarcdx, I believe, meant to say that when you think, say, you need to have more money, you can use thinking to falsify the original thought that created suffering. You don't need more money than you have. Ever. Anything else is a mind-game, delusion.
could the camera man zoom a little further?
if people can actually see this fact they would never hurt another human being
Aqui tem sabedoria!...
WHERE CAN BE THE FULL INTERVIWE SEEN?
OR WHAT IS THE NAME OF THE INTERVIEW?
🪔Amen, we're all one with our fellow dearly beloved Cosmos and all beings ever in evolution🌕Brahma Vihara🥥Tat Tvam Asi🌅Ellam Ondre🎂Sacred Heart📿Pratitya Samutpada🤲Aham Brahmasmi💖Aum Shanti Shanti Shanti🌟🕉
Yea....what he said.
Cómo me gustaría que David Bohm estuviera en español.
Hola Nataccha. Si hay algunos vídeos subtitulados de Bohm aquí en TH-cam.
You have the thinking mind and the working mind.The thinking mind is the illusionary self.
Krishan murti is neat whisky
What’s the original full interview?
Does anybody have the text of this speech? It is almost the truth! 8-)
see recent comment
I had the same inquiry
Go to this website www.yousubtitles.com/
Paste the URL of this youtube into the box th-cam.com/video/emAeFuwtelQ/w-d-xo.html
Then you've got all the cc
From microcosm to macrocosom. This is why the conflict arises. It should be inside out. Now its everybody seeks in the world and then looks inside.
The harsh truth makes you loose your dress. Your assumption of nakedness is so meagre it doesn't take long enough to walk naked. Thus the notion come to the God as a child. Your thoughts purified. Only harsh truth can jolt you back to what is truth.
They found all that is unseen. Understanding how things works in the universe. Yet universe surprises them.
I remember the child when he was told the world was built on four pillars. The kid went into space to look for it. And here the kid is. Smiling. Kidnis seeing the creation on four pillars. Do you see the dome? See the carpet of blackness. The stars in it. Quiet a marvel. Isn't it. See the two witnesses preaching. Can you see the fort of air. Do you see the many waters. God's kingdom is beautiful. Isn't it.
Now you will understand him in yakshroopa.
Great humility with little dogma and aggression..
The mind can be your greatest asset but can also be your worst.
As far as I know, none of Krishnamurtis is/was enlightened. So how would he know the truth?
Jiddu was enlightened.... Osho says so, Sadhguru says so.... They are enlightened for sure...
There is no such thing called enlightenment.
You should watch more videos of krinshamurti and mooji,you will start getting more clarity and you will reach at a point where by listning to someone you will know by yourself that whether someone is enlightened or not.It is called spiritual progress.
@@prasathviswanathan267 here we go, a progressed intellectual who will disclaim all spiritual traditions on TH-cam comments
Find out for yourself sir - Krishnamurti would say..
Where can I find full video ?
He explained the life in 6 minutes
🙏🙏🙏🙏
Es como si Buda hubiese dialogado con un súper científico, el resultado lo pueden experimentar leyendo y viendo sus mas de 30 hrs de charlas !!!
Why people try too hard to avoid philosophy. All that is said is a poor articulation of Hegel's dialectic of recognition with a little salt of an übermensch stat that will lead to some ultimate utopic society.
I don´t think Hegel wrote "Herrschaft und Knechtschaft" for you to be able to dismiss any idea as just a poorer version of the same. It may not even have crossed his mind. I do think the phenomenologists demonstrated they understood it was not a question of getting there first or saying it better.
There is much more to non-dualism or "advaita vedanta" than a "poor articulation of Hegel´s dialectic". For one thing, they did get there first, by a couple of thousand years and may be given the benefit of the doubt, solely on that basis, before moving on to Hegel´s excerpt of their thousand years of literature and then dismissing the whole history of the process of the original as derivative.
It may not be that people avoid philosophy so hard, it may be more that people have a wider view of philosophy than being exclusively written down by somewhat pale bearded men in what they consider civilised countries.
The self is nothing but a thought. Though creates the self. End though end the self. Obviously ending thought is almost impossible. Thoughts are always there.
We do not want to, or need to, end thought (even the self-serving kind)? It is enough of a miracle to not be a slave to thought forms. First and last freedom! In fact, one need only realize that One is already free from thought and can freely use thought, put it to the best use. Be still (self-serving thoughts cannot). Peace.
@@BulentBasaran nice, thanks. Can you please illustrate how you know this understanding of freedom from thoughts some more?
@@anDReaS-yp5gw Dear Andreas, we wake up from a night's sleep and as soon as we are aware, what do we notice? What happens? A thought or two, or more come.. Let us denote them as: X, Y, Z, etc.. Now, it is up to us to pick and choose. Do we have to take X and see what it entails? This is almost like pure mathematical logic, accepting some premises and seeing what conclusions they might entail.. I would say, no, we don't have to. We could also choose Y or Z, or any other. We might notice that some of them could conflict with others.. We don't seem to have a choice what the primitive X, Y, Z, etc. are that come to our awareness -- thoughts seem to have an independent reality of their own. But, we do seem to be able to choose which we take seriously, which we believe and which we play with.
What about you? Do you notice how thoughts come and how you choose amongst them, and how you play with them?
A easy experiment would be to pay attention briefly to your current thought (pick one, articulate it, write it down, or not) and then ask what your next thought would be and then wait for it. What happens in the meantime before the next thought appears?
I feel a sense of freedom and peace with an aliveness that's nurturing and energizing. How about you?
Let us enjoy the vast inner stillness and each thought that seems to create a ripple in it. The thought is there. It is up to us to make use of it, when that's what is called for, or inquire into its truth -- by that I mean its truth value to you. My experience is that there are many thoughts that appear and if I acknowledge them, but don't take them as necessarily true for me at that moment they bid farewell soon enough. In that sense, we seem to be a wider domain than thoughts in the mind, and hence can feel free from them.
Wishing you good cheer whenever any thought enters your awareness. Take care. Be still. Peace.
@@BulentBasaran thank you for your reply! "What happens in the meantime before the next thought appears?"
This stillness between thoughts that you are blessed to experience is a rare occurrence for me. Mostly my thoughts are without cessation, but still pretty empty, like a comment commenting on the last comment and basically saying the same thing. I have experienced very brief moments of silence during my "mind training" but as soon as I become aware of the stillness it ceases - maybe because becoming aware of the silence is itself a thought and that gives rise to comments and so on.
This leads me to believe that experiencing pure stillness is not really possible, because as soon as I become aware of it, it goes away and all I'm left with is a vague memory of it.
Is it really possible? You seem to think so and others do as well. But how? When? What am I supposed to do? Is it just more patience, more training or do I just give up and forget about it?
We have two selves/two minds. We even have two brains. We have egomind and Christmind. False self and real self. Consciousness is the domain of the ego. If you want to identify with christmind you have to depend on Spirit/God Himself and receive his thoughts and guidance rather than trying to figure it out yourself.
@El Pacificador I will have a look. Truth is basically what never change. What is. It altso is what creates as an extension of prime creator, not ego. Ego makes.
@El Pacificador There are many things wrong in what is written there
I can guarantee that people in the Eastern World do not have "Christmind".
Its Quite surprising that there is still not one dislike! Otherwise Bastards will dislike no matter what according to their level of petty lite intelligence.
There are 8 as of 2019.09.04. They are only those who, as of yet, believe that they are who they think they are :-) Eventually, they will come back to reality and may even come back here and switch to like..