As Kew Gardens is my local station, I feel it is cruel and inhumane to dangle this tantalising prospect which, sadly, will never materialise in my lifetime 😡
I used to live in Kew, though only for about 18 months. It was the only time I live anywhere (in London) where I relied on one rail service to get into central London. .... Previously, and afterwards, I lived in the Wimbledon area, where there were both multiple train services _and_ multiple tube services.
Perhaps a better approach would be a tube map that draws inspiration from the historical schemes, yet are somehow repurposed as it were for other lines and at the same time avoiding any unnecessary duplications (admittingly easier said then done)? Taken together surely it would have resulted in significantly improved orbital railway lines/interchanges/etc, allowing commuters to travel from one part of London to another without having to go through the more heavily congested central London area?
Or else, create an historic league table of the different line and proposed stations, taking into servability (sorry, can't think of better word) vs expense of their creation. An impossible yet intriguing task
@@tomwantshelp It'd probably be easier on the Central - just add an extension from Hainault. ( en.wikipedia.org/wiki/County_of_Hainaut for anybody confused )
Brilliant! It could use the Leamside Line and connect with the proposed (several times, but not yet built) Metro Loop from Heworth to South Hylton. Spurs to Washington, Philadelphia and New York could be added to confuse visitors from the USA.
Totally agree. I always put OSM or Google Maps on my 2nd monitor and try to figure out where the tracks would've been placed and how the area might look today, if it was build.
An Australian-raised kid, I of course spent some time living in London from 2003 to 2008 (a dual French citizenship allowed a longer stay). I adore England and even more deeply adore London and its awe-inspiring Tube system. I can see why these Tube nuances are fascinating, because even an extra station here or there could have changed the fortunes and street culture of an entire postcode. However, Richmond perhaps benefitted from being a little shielded - it just seemed a place content in its own white-plastered nook with badgers and a spattering of old growth. I always felt it was a shame that southern, compromised suburbs like Steatham never got a life line. I never lived there, but it just sounded a little hobbled by its circumstances. Oh well, nuances.
If you took a drink for every *single* Underground project, that was either delayed or cancelled. You would be _very_ much dead Great vid as always Jago my lad 👍
The Overground now shares track with The District as far as Gunnersbury, where it leaves on a grand tour of North London around to Stratford in the east.
I believe one of the issues the 1989 plan had was to increase the service levels on the trains and reduce the amount of switching. Each switch slows down the service, I think that the District line had lots of switches already and the Central line had only a few at that end. My understanding was they considered replacing the district line service with a central line one. Interesting video Jago, what about one that covers the freight movements around London.
The 1980s study that proposed sending the Central to Richmond was part of a larger plan. As well as the Shepherds Bush/Turnham Green link, there would have been one from Willesden Junction to North Acton. The final arrangement would have been Picadilly to Heathrow only, District to Rayners Lane/Uxbridge and Ealing Broadway, Central to West Ruislip and Richmond, and Bakerloo to Ealing Broadway and Harrow.
Things that might have been. I would like to see the return of the extensive tram network that used to be in South London. As a Croydon resident I can tell you that trams work.
Great video Jago as always. As a Chiswick residence who faces up to an hour long commute to the City I say curse you Kaiser. Plus the Piccadilly line extension of 1920 that never was. And the Piccadilly line still doesn't stop for most of the day at Turnham Green.
Anywhere where the roads are becoming choked, or where congestion charge, ULEZ or other off-putting things to personal transport come in to being, should provide a raison d'etre for a new tube line or extension. Had green belts not been a thing, I could imagine the suburban sprawl and increasing populations would also have added reasons. So Richmond may yet be on the cards for the central line. Once the Elizabeth Line is settled in and running normally, thats when other projects may get more attention.
The trick, of course, is that non-surface rail is Expensive to build (of course, with property prices, geography, and NIMBYism, it can still be the cheaper option in the middle of cities) so you need not just enough reason that people would Want a new line or extension, but that enough would both want and regularly use it to justify spending all that money on that rather than on something else. Which is its own issue.
If you want a nice ' planned but unbuilt tube lines' video, the Wimbledon-Hainault line might be a good one - an idea that planners got quite excited about in the 70s. I particularly liked the idea of tube stations at 'World's End', 'Chelsea Town Hall' or 'King's Road Chelsea' as it was one of the few bits of central-ish London that had been left without a tube line.
Another facinating video Jago and interesting alongside yours on the CLR's "circle line". I'm intrigued by the railways that almost were around Shepherds Bush as the GWR's original intenton was to build its own terminus just to the west of the CLR's with a subway connection (they'd even identified a site for it) and operate it with suburban trains via Ealing Broadway with the CLR providing a connection at Shepherds Bush to the West End and the City at Bank. I think it was after the CLR's first plan to turn south from Shepherds Bush was abandoned that the two companies agreed that making the connnection at Ealing by giving the CLR running powers over its Ealing & Shepherd's Bush Railway would be a better bet for connecting the GWR to the West End. That is of course what eventually happened, though not until 1920, with a Central Line platform inserteed between the GWR station at Ealing Broadway and the then separate District Railway terminus.
Jago, thanks for channeling your Harry Beck role again with those fine Central Line diagrams - really helped to visualize things. I’m sure the disused viaduct at Hammersmith can be adapted somehow by the future DLR extension to Richmond. 😊
Thanks for another riveted presentation, J! This made me wonder about discarded routes which never laid track for economic or technological means, and whether time has ever made any finally viable? Could we realise the dreams of long-dead idealists and bring the once future to the present?
@@hb1338 One would assume that any individual holding the reins would be in possession of all the latest data and figures relating to demographic flow, and that such relevant information would be constantly updated to ensure public services run at optimal efficiency.
I find it very strange to be learning "Home County" geography for Regency and early Victorian literature via late Victorian and Edwardian transit growth but there it is. You are the transport link to my period drama.
Problems (or soultions) with Metros with a Single "Core" Section. They are generally easy to operate, more so if overlapping sections are possible with turnbacks in the case of disruption (qv Victoria Line). Adding Extensions at each end in theory is good as each can feed an intensive core service - and again can accomodate on one branch delays on the other, but if the "tail" service is poor it can annoy travellers - eg in Wanstead do you go to Wanstead or Snaresbrook ? A tail - or a loop at one or more ends can also be useful. It is when it gets to three tails things get at least service pattern confusing - although could be operated. As it Is Ealing Broadway and West Rusilp seem as good as terminal points as any other , given the stoppage of building development post WW2.
For a few years I worked for a business travel agency (based in Surbiton) whose major customer had offices nearby Richmond and New Malden stations. In the mornings I picked up traveler's passports from the two locations and headed to central London to get business visas applied for or collect at the various consulates (Nigeria High Commission, I'm looking at you). Unfortunately some consulates required afternoon pickup which complicated my return to Surbiton to gather up newly produced airline tickets and their daily delivery to Richmond & New Malden. This was done on public transport (with deadlines) so I am totally mentally invested in this topic although my experience was nearly thirty years ago.
Jago, in the sometimes ironic tone of your videos, let me take you to task. The real reason the line wasn't built to Richmond was that it would involve an enormous amount of work making a line through the peak district to north Yorkshire. I think , and many people of the great metropolis either forget, or didn't know, is that Richmond in Yorkshire is the town afterwhich (deliberate creation of a new word?) Richmond -on-Thames was named. ; > )
all I can add to this "what if's" conversation, is at 1.12, he shot of Ealing Broadway station, no I was'nt the ticket man, slight nod to the mighty Ian Dury song "What a waste" and the was Fulham Broadway.. See the block on the far right of the screen ? Next to that and out of shot, is where I used to live in Madeley Road. When I was a very young kid early 60's, I used to stand on a box at the end of the garden and watch the steam trains go by. I can also remember Haven Green, just near to the station being covered in deep snow, so that must have been the winter of 1962 / 63
Have you seen Alan Snowdon Archive channel on TH-cam ? about former locomotive routes. I found it extremely enlightening to see how the locomotive lines actually ran through historic districts. I appreciate you may have memory of this
I had this playing in the background and as an Australian the line "Electrification to Shepperton" really threw me off as in Victoria (A state in Australia) there is a city called Shepperton that currently has rail service but with locomotive hauled trains and that's where my mind jumped to for some reason. Anyways, really good video.
Definitely potential there. As a (now ex-) east Londoner it was the other end of the central I was more familiar with so it’s interesting to hear some of the history and shenanigans concerning the other end.
Ditto - except I never really thought of the Central beyond the West End. I knew it went somewhere, but not quite where. I had to a lot of map checking today before this video made much sense!
If I was to pick my skateboard up like that I'd hit myself in the head... (3:00) Another fact-filled fascinating video about something which never existed - I don't know how you manage it Jago!! 😁
Since London has a Kew Gardens,guess who copied it! New York,where else,and it also has a mainline,and subway connection! Respectively- Long Island Railroad,for Penn Station,adding the line to Grand Central,and the 8th Avenue IND Line,E&F services,plus locals! So there is quite a mix of available operations,and routings! Also like Garden City,Kew Gardens was a planned community,and the rail connection was built in,very convenient for the inhabitants! Thank you,Jago,for another trip around London's unbuilt,or overlooked rail lines!! Thank you 😇!
I've taken the LIRR into Penn Station and it only stopped at one station (Woodside). I don't remember if I noted Kew Gardens, but perhaps the train was going to fast for me to see.
@@eattherich9215 There two classes of trains operating into/ out of Penn Station! Queens locals and expresses,depending on the Branch of origin/ destination! Generally,Hempstead Branch runs local in both directions,Babylon runs express,both directions out of/ into Jamaica! So when you're traveling it depends on time of day,what Branch you came from,to what connection you make at Jamaica! Slight error on my part,Hempstead runs to Flatbush / Atlantic Terminal! The connections for Penn,Generally run Babylon,Huntington,and points,namely Ronkonkoma,plus Montauk lines,off the South Shore! I don't know how the GCT schedules will work,so that's now a blank book! Thanks for your interest! Thank you 😇!
@@roberthuron9160: I changed from the JFK AirTrain at Jamaica. I could have taken the subway, but wanted to get into the City faster to begin my wonderful holiday.
I literally suggested a video about Richmond yesterday, and hey presto, you made one! haha. I used to live in Richmond for 4 years and commuted to the City on both the District and SWR/Waterloo & City routes. A Central line link could have been really useful as the District is quite slow (but at least quite pleasant relative to the sweaty and hot Central line). Looking at the number of stations on their plans though, I do wonder whether it would have been any quicker. Perhaps CrossRail 2 with an interchange at Clapham Junction would be better. Not really sure.
Yeah District Line to Richmond seems to take forever! I remember travelling it years ago and you'd look up at the map above the seats thinking "must be nearly there now" and there would still be many stations to go.
I think the trains into Waterloo are the undoing of any expansion of tube services to Richmond as the frequent stops on _any_ tube service means that trains into Waterloo will always provide the fastest service into the West End and City.
@@pulaski1 When I used to work by St. Paul's cathedral, my commute time was basically the same by either method, because getting from Waterloo over the river was so slow. I either had to do a 20 minute walk or a 20 minute trip on the W&C Line (10 minutes of which was standing in a queue). The only way to really speed up services from Richmond would be a Crossrail style service.
Fascinating as always, Jago. Since you have been filming in West London recently, a question: Do you know why there are only three platforms at Stamford Brook. I lived there back in the late 80s and could never work it out.
The station was built in the 1920s - at the time the two southernmost tracks (now the eastbound pair) were used by the District and the other two by the LSWR, but only for freight trains, so only the former needed platforms. (The redundant extra flyovers carrying the westbound LSWR track to Richmond under the District's tracks to Acton can still be seen west of Turnham Gereen) When the Picadilly was extended, the tracks were rearranged with the District now using the outermost tracks - this required a new eastbound platform. As the eastbound Picadilly would not call at Stamford Brook there was no need for a platform on that track. The platform on the westbound Piucadilly was, of course, the original eastbound District track
Personally I would take the CIRCLE line to Richmond - now it is not a circle - The Hammersmith Grove section could be rebuilt (dual way single line) , THROUGH that towerblock building. This would run onto the District and take the full District service. By Stopping all Piccadillys from Terminal 5 at Turnham Green this would effect a decent interchange for central London via District or Piccadilly. This simplifies District Service to Ealing Broadway and Wimbledon
I find it interesting that the Underground seriously considered inter-lining the District and Central lines for miles through the S.W. London suburbs. Today's operators are much more reluctant to do that, knowing how a late train on one service is likely to delay trains on more lines than just the one. I suspect the District would have been cut way back if the Central had reached Richmond.
I love the London tube. I lived and worked in London in the mid sixties and commuted every day from McKenzie road to Paddington. Miss it still. Thanks for your videos.
Very interesting jago this is one scheme that was new to me. You are very good in your researching. There is one further point that you didn't mention but does occur on lines shared between surface and tube stock namely the different platform heights had some of these schemes materialised.
Richmond seemed to be the " go to " location at one time . I think i heard there was direct Richmond to Crystal Palace direct train service in the great day .
I'm glad that the Central Line never got extended to Richmond. It would have created capacity problems on the railway line to Richmond, that is currently shared by the District Line and the North London Line (or whatever non-intuitive name that has now). What I would instead like to see is the Central Line branch to Ealing Broadway get extended to West Ealing and onto the Greenford Branch. This would rehabilitate the Greenford Branch and improve westward connectivity at Ealing Broadway.
It’s a tricky one because on the one hand the Central and District seem to serve their own areas pretty well but their main sections don’t intersect until Mile End quite some way east. Apart from Ealing Broadway which doesn’t benefit from being a shared terminus in that regard.
If it was the continentals, they'd have made an extra land purchase attached to the side of the M25 and reserved it for future use by either a future TFL circular railway embracing all of London, which joined up all the ends of the radial links OR to have envisaged a high speed mainline from the contintent looping South and North of the capital (Using the same land) before heading North. They then could have built the links, as was done with the M25, at their leisure and that of their bankers. Trouble is, Mickey-Mouse thinkers with no foresight or motivation to change the status quo rule UK.
A greater problem is the time taken to implement major transport schemes. Each incoming government scraps the other side's schemes as a matter of principle, so you have about 5-10 years to get something to a state where it cannot be scrapped. Good luck with that.
Looking at a map, a much cheaper and only slightly more cumbersome option would be building an interchange station in North Acton between Central Liine and Overground
There is a triangle which is bounded by the Central line, the old North London line (Richmond-Stratford) and the main line into and out of Paddington. It is only about 100 yards long.
@JagoHazzard, what happened with the over ground connection, the Broad street /Dalston junction to Richmond via Willesden junction where another branch line took it out to Watford where again it would branch on another excursion into the deepest darkest English country side " hear there be Dragons" or maybe it was a pub called the green dragon. the train however did have green livery, not sure who ran it, of cause It may be just a confused memory, I was 15 at the time and this was 1959.
Basically there were two lines: Broad Street to Richmond via Willesden Jnct HL and Euston to Watford Jnct wia WJ LL. But trains could also run Broad Street to Watford by using the link via Primrose Hill.
I like the idea of an extension to Chertsey (though the LSWR never extended the Shepperton Line to Chertsey either) as that's whereI grew up, and the Tube seemed a very long way away.
Jago how about a Northern Line route that was never built for us South Londoners, where I believe the line was meant to go beyond Morden to North Cheam and Ewell.
And indeed further on up the Lea Valley. The two track section has been a real bottleneck and a lot of money was spent on a single extra track to Meridian Water. One feels that a Victoria line extension could have served those stations more cheaply and effectively with a couple of burrowing junctions where necessary, especially with rails already there to Northumberland Park depot. And there's an old route from Angel Road to Edmonton Green which could have been used and even taken over the Enfield Town branch.
Tapping into the suburban commuter zones to pay for the expensive inner city works made a lot of sense back in the day, but less so now that the greater organisation commands a mycelium (a figure I heard on the radio today) that provides the funding from everywhere else. Oh, and whilst we're on about mycelia, that façade at Richmond Terminus badly needs a shower of fungicide and several coats of masonry paint.
Been meaning to suggest this for a while - we hear quite often about a certain Charles Yerkes, but what about his successor as Chairman of Underground Electric Railways of London, (Sir) Edgar Speyer? I first came across him in a book of Bill Bryson’s in which he doesn’t come over very well (he seemingly wanted Germany to win in WWI). Other sources have painted him in a better light, as a business leader and philanthropist etc. Might be an interesting topic?
On a purely personal level, I would certainly use a Central Line service to Richmond, it would allow me to avoid having to use Waterloo for destinations I want to reach South West of London. Richmond, an extremely busy commuter station and interchange with the District and South Western Railway, would also benefit with extra capacity to central London.
Taking the Central Line to Denham would be the only option that really makes sense to me now, except for of course the Metropolitan Line serving Watford Junction. Chiltern Trains serving Moor Park would be good as then you can get from Aylesbury to Watford Junction with just 1 Change. Merging Oyster and Various Smart Key Schemes would be Good Making Them all available to Pay as you Go Passengers and allowing Railcards to be Added, Add on those Bus Smart Cards (Including ENCT), And Wham Bam, One Travel Document for All Public Transport. My Loop would be MKC - Berkhamsted - Bus to Aylesbury, 2 Trains as opposed to 3 or even 3 and a walk to Watford Junction, Bus back to Berkhamsted, then train home, I might even just jump on the train from Watford Junction and go straight home. Single Paper Ticket Fares should at a Maximum be 60% of the Cost of a return for travelling in the same Time Period.
Much as I like the idea of lines being extended to wherever, I think Richmond is already well served by the District line and SWR National Rail. I have just checked with a tube map and found that it also has the Overground, which I hadn't appreciated.
I've long been a fan of alternate history but latterly as a kind of tube fan, what ifs for the Tube are fascinating. eg maybe taking the Fleet/Jubilee from say Baker Street to St Katherine Docks.
All of your videos are interesting, Mr H, but especially so. It has all the hallmarks of a spiffing wheeze, requiring only the intervention of that Jerkes chappie to make it complete. Thanks. Simon T
Possibly a case of the more the merrier,the North London Railway which became LNWR then BR etc.also ran to Richmond originally from Broad Street via Acton.I believe that line is now TFL Overground with services from Stratford.I did read some time ago of a suggestion to link the Central at Northolt to Heathrow in connection with some airport plan but nothing seems to have come about with that idea.
The route from the original proposal is a complete mess. Considering that tunnels were built underneath roads, you have 2 very sharp turns, one on each side of Turnham Green.
Used to live at the top of askew road / Uxbridge road. It would have been transformative if the central line had gone along towards Ealing via Acton vale. Ah well
Not sure why I like this channel. I don't live in London and have no intention of ever doing so. I think it must be Jago's research, which is interesting, wherever you are.
as a non-Londoner, how useful would a Central Line extension to just Hammersmith be? because I think that would have been the most plausible thing to happen together with the Piccadilly Line extension out west
Can’t see the Central Line extended to Richmond. As the District Line already goes to Richmond. And the District Line used to run to Southend-on-Sea that you already done a video of. But I do think that the Central Line should of continued all the way to Slough. Still I do like the idea of how tube lines would of looked like if they were extended outside of London.
As Kew Gardens is my local station, I feel it is cruel and inhumane to dangle this tantalising prospect which, sadly, will never materialise in my lifetime 😡
My local stn too! 🙃
Good to know there are plenty of fellow train nerds in Kew. You’d never think that when standing at Kew Gardens station
I used to live in Kew, though only for about 18 months. It was the only time I live anywhere (in London) where I relied on one rail service to get into central London. .... Previously, and afterwards, I lived in the Wimbledon area, where there were both multiple train services _and_ multiple tube services.
There is always Kew Bridge station, although that’s a bit of the way for some people in Kew
@@Willmorrison99 Or North Sheen
Would love to see a tube map of all the lines that reached the approval stage but were never implemented. 'Messy' may be too generous.
Imagine if the lines were built. With all the lines and stations, London and vicinity would collapse due to the ground being like Swiss cheese.
Perhaps a better approach would be a tube map that draws inspiration from the historical schemes, yet are somehow repurposed as it were for other lines and at the same time avoiding any unnecessary duplications (admittingly easier said then done)? Taken together surely it would have resulted in significantly improved orbital railway lines/interchanges/etc, allowing commuters to travel from one part of London to another without having to go through the more heavily congested central London area?
Or else, create an historic league table of the different line and proposed stations, taking into servability (sorry, can't think of better word) vs expense of their creation. An impossible yet intriguing task
I'm waiting for the never-built District Line extension to York and Newcastle-upon-Tyne.
The Waterloo and City line extension to Waterloo. Not the station, the Belgian town.
@@tomwantshelp Does Eurostar before 2007 count? ;)
@@tomwantshelp It'd probably be easier on the Central - just add an extension from Hainault. ( en.wikipedia.org/wiki/County_of_Hainaut for anybody confused )
Brilliant! It could use the Leamside Line and connect with the proposed (several times, but not yet built) Metro Loop from Heworth to South Hylton. Spurs to Washington, Philadelphia and New York could be added to confuse visitors from the USA.
I like this. As a slightly agraphobic person, getting on a train in Leeds and not getting of until Richmond would be awesome.
The Sparks effect
This line ain't big enough for the both of us
Lol
Or a bad case of Amateur Hour from the bureaucrats
Three separate lines to one destination? Good to see Victorian railway madness is still alive!
Two words: Ealing Broadway.
@@mbrady2329: that's two lines. What's your point?
@@eattherich9215 not anymore. Now there's 3 lines. The Elizabeth line got added.
if only thee had planned for four lines instead, then one might have been realized in the end.
@@eattherich9215 like his profile pic it's controversial
Only Jago can make fascinating videos about things that don’t actually exist. Intriguing to watch what might have been.
Ya he has a rail talent for yelling stories.
@@robotx9285 - ‘Shout, shout, let it all out!’
Agreed
Totally agree. I always put OSM or Google Maps on my 2nd monitor and try to figure out where the tracks would've been placed and how the area might look today, if it was build.
@@robotx9285 - Come to think of it ‘Yelling Stories’ would make a great name for a folk-rock band!
The Central Line in Richmond really had a ‘Sliding Doors’ Moment.
An Australian-raised kid, I of course spent some time living in London from 2003 to 2008 (a dual French citizenship allowed a longer stay). I adore England and even more deeply adore London and its awe-inspiring Tube system. I can see why these Tube nuances are fascinating, because even an extra station here or there could have changed the fortunes and street culture of an entire postcode. However, Richmond perhaps benefitted from being a little shielded - it just seemed a place content in its own white-plastered nook with badgers and a spattering of old growth. I always felt it was a shame that southern, compromised suburbs like Steatham never got a life line. I never lived there, but it just sounded a little hobbled by its circumstances. Oh well, nuances.
If you took a drink for every *single* Underground project, that was either delayed or cancelled. You would be _very_ much dead
Great vid as always Jago my lad 👍
Well done that lad for actually using the bin 3:13
The Overground now shares track with The District as far as Gunnersbury, where it leaves on a grand tour of North London around to Stratford in the east.
I had a bit of a crappy weekend, but something is so calming about these tube videos lol
I believe one of the issues the 1989 plan had was to increase the service levels on the trains and reduce the amount of switching. Each switch slows down the service, I think that the District line had lots of switches already and the Central line had only a few at that end. My understanding was they considered replacing the district line service with a central line one.
Interesting video Jago, what about one that covers the freight movements around London.
The 1980s study that proposed sending the Central to Richmond was part of a larger plan. As well as the Shepherds Bush/Turnham Green link, there would have been one from Willesden Junction to North Acton. The final arrangement would have been Picadilly to Heathrow only, District to Rayners Lane/Uxbridge and Ealing Broadway, Central to West Ruislip and Richmond, and Bakerloo to Ealing Broadway and Harrow.
That was the ultimate crayonista project, the sort of thing a group of anoraks would come up with after an evening in the pub 😁
Any Tube line has potential, even if it is only electrical.... Ha Ha 😄
Feel free to use this joke if you want to Jago
Things that might have been. I would like to see the return of the extensive tram network that used to be in South London. As a Croydon resident I can tell you that trams work.
Great video Jago as always. As a Chiswick residence who faces up to an hour long commute to the City I say curse you Kaiser. Plus the Piccadilly line extension of 1920 that never was. And the Piccadilly line still doesn't stop for most of the day at Turnham Green.
Hi fellow Dukes and Dukesses of Hazzard, hope yr Sunday's going well. Thx Jago as always, much appreciated 👍🏿
Anywhere where the roads are becoming choked, or where congestion charge, ULEZ or other off-putting things to personal transport come in to being, should provide a raison d'etre for a new tube line or extension. Had green belts not been a thing, I could imagine the suburban sprawl and increasing populations would also have added reasons. So Richmond may yet be on the cards for the central line. Once the Elizabeth Line is settled in and running normally, thats when other projects may get more attention.
The trick, of course, is that non-surface rail is Expensive to build (of course, with property prices, geography, and NIMBYism, it can still be the cheaper option in the middle of cities) so you need not just enough reason that people would Want a new line or extension, but that enough would both want and regularly use it to justify spending all that money on that rather than on something else. Which is its own issue.
👍Another excellent piece of well researched work sir.😊
So, is the opposite of a Full Brazilian, a Shepherd's Bush?
I'll show myself out.
Security!
If you want a nice ' planned but unbuilt tube lines' video, the Wimbledon-Hainault line might be a good one - an idea that planners got quite excited about in the 70s. I particularly liked the idea of tube stations at 'World's End', 'Chelsea Town Hall' or 'King's Road Chelsea' as it was one of the few bits of central-ish London that had been left without a tube line.
That area is talked about for crossrail 2 these days also!
Oh Jago. You are taking me back on journeys from London when I was in my youth. I love it so much buddy.
Always a joy to watch your videos. Long may you continue to make them !
If I Were in Rich-Mond, yadda-diddle-yada-diddle-diddle-dum. (Lyrics, Yerkes)
Another facinating video Jago and interesting alongside yours on the CLR's "circle line". I'm intrigued by the railways that almost were around Shepherds Bush as the GWR's original intenton was to build its own terminus just to the west of the CLR's with a subway connection (they'd even identified a site for it) and operate it with suburban trains via Ealing Broadway with the CLR providing a connection at Shepherds Bush to the West End and the City at Bank. I think it was after the CLR's first plan to turn south from Shepherds Bush was abandoned that the two companies agreed that making the connnection at Ealing by giving the CLR running powers over its Ealing & Shepherd's Bush Railway would be a better bet for connecting the GWR to the West End. That is of course what eventually happened, though not until 1920, with a Central Line platform inserteed between the GWR station at Ealing Broadway and the then separate District Railway terminus.
Jago, thanks for channeling your Harry Beck role again with those fine Central Line diagrams - really helped to visualize things. I’m sure the disused viaduct at Hammersmith can be adapted somehow by the future DLR extension to Richmond. 😊
Thanks for another riveted presentation, J!
This made me wonder about discarded routes which never laid track for economic or technological means, and whether time has ever made any finally viable?
Could we realise the dreams of long-dead idealists and bring the once future to the present?
It would make more sense to attempt to assess likely demand before planning any new lines.
@@hb1338 One would assume that any individual holding the reins would be in possession of all the latest data and figures relating to demographic flow, and that such relevant information would be constantly updated to ensure public services run at optimal efficiency.
An underground video that does not mention Mr Yerkes?
Jago, what is this madness?
I find it very strange to be learning "Home County" geography for Regency and early Victorian literature via late Victorian and Edwardian transit growth but there it is.
You are the transport link to my period drama.
My favorite ever tube channel! 👍
Problems (or soultions) with Metros with a Single "Core" Section. They are generally easy to operate, more so if overlapping sections are possible with turnbacks in the case of disruption (qv Victoria Line). Adding Extensions at each end in theory is good as each can feed an intensive core service - and again can accomodate on one branch delays on the other, but if the "tail" service is poor it can annoy travellers - eg in Wanstead do you go to Wanstead or Snaresbrook ? A tail - or a loop at one or more ends can also be useful. It is when it gets to three tails things get at least service pattern confusing - although could be operated. As it Is Ealing Broadway and West Rusilp seem as good as terminal points as any other , given the stoppage of building development post WW2.
For a few years I worked for a business travel agency (based in Surbiton) whose major customer had offices nearby Richmond and New Malden stations. In the mornings I picked up traveler's passports from the two locations and headed to central London to get business visas applied for or collect at the various consulates (Nigeria High Commission, I'm looking at you). Unfortunately some consulates required afternoon pickup which complicated my return to Surbiton to gather up newly produced airline tickets and their daily delivery to Richmond & New Malden. This was done on public transport (with deadlines) so I am totally mentally invested in this topic although my experience was nearly thirty years ago.
Love these. Staggering how many lines and schemes there are and had been considered
Jago, in the sometimes ironic tone of your videos, let me take you to task. The real reason the line wasn't built to Richmond was that it would involve an enormous amount of work making a line through the peak district to north Yorkshire. I think , and many people of the great metropolis either forget, or didn't know, is that Richmond in Yorkshire is the town afterwhich (deliberate creation of a new word?) Richmond -on-Thames was named. ; > )
The correct name of the borough is Richmond *upon* Thames.
@@hb1338 Yes, I realised that just after I had hit the comment button. That makes it better still for any sign-writers involved.
all I can add to this "what if's" conversation, is at 1.12, he shot of Ealing Broadway station, no I was'nt the ticket man, slight nod to the mighty Ian Dury song "What a waste" and the was Fulham Broadway.. See the block on the far right of the screen ? Next to that and out of shot, is where I used to live in Madeley Road. When I was a very young kid early 60's, I used to stand on a box at the end of the garden and watch the steam trains go by. I can also remember Haven Green, just near to the station being covered in deep snow, so that must have been the winter of 1962 / 63
Have you seen Alan Snowdon Archive channel on TH-cam ? about former locomotive routes. I found it extremely enlightening to see how the locomotive lines actually ran through historic districts. I appreciate you may have memory of this
Had this video appear when I was waiting for the bus at Richmond station...good timing
I had this playing in the background and as an Australian the line "Electrification to Shepperton" really threw me off as in Victoria (A state in Australia) there is a city called Shepperton that currently has rail service but with locomotive hauled trains and that's where my mind jumped to for some reason. Anyways, really good video.
Another interesting piece of history Jago
Jago, you should do the Crane Line, which was a tube line suggested by the broadcaster Nick Crane - and London Transport was VERY interested in.....😉
Definitely potential there. As a (now ex-) east Londoner it was the other end of the central I was more familiar with so it’s interesting to hear some of the history and shenanigans concerning the other end.
Ditto - except I never really thought of the Central beyond the West End. I knew it went somewhere, but not quite where. I had to a lot of map checking today before this video made much sense!
If I was to pick my skateboard up like that I'd hit myself in the head... (3:00)
Another fact-filled fascinating video about something which never existed - I don't know how you manage it Jago!! 😁
Since London has a Kew Gardens,guess who copied it! New York,where else,and it also has a mainline,and subway connection! Respectively- Long Island Railroad,for Penn Station,adding the line to Grand Central,and the 8th Avenue IND Line,E&F services,plus locals! So there is quite a mix of available operations,and routings! Also like Garden City,Kew Gardens was a planned community,and the rail connection was built in,very convenient for the inhabitants! Thank you,Jago,for another trip around London's unbuilt,or overlooked rail lines!! Thank you 😇!
I've taken the LIRR into Penn Station and it only stopped at one station (Woodside). I don't remember if I noted Kew Gardens, but perhaps the train was going to fast for me to see.
@@eattherich9215 There two classes of trains operating into/ out of Penn Station! Queens locals and expresses,depending on the Branch of origin/ destination! Generally,Hempstead Branch runs local in both directions,Babylon runs express,both directions out of/ into Jamaica! So when you're traveling it depends on time of day,what Branch you came from,to what connection you make at Jamaica! Slight error on my part,Hempstead runs to Flatbush / Atlantic Terminal! The connections for Penn,Generally run Babylon,Huntington,and points,namely Ronkonkoma,plus Montauk lines,off the South Shore! I don't know how the GCT schedules will work,so that's now a blank book! Thanks for your interest! Thank you 😇!
@@roberthuron9160: I changed from the JFK AirTrain at Jamaica. I could have taken the subway, but wanted to get into the City faster to begin my wonderful holiday.
Love these, the voice is like honey on a sore throat.
I literally suggested a video about Richmond yesterday, and hey presto, you made one! haha. I used to live in Richmond for 4 years and commuted to the City on both the District and SWR/Waterloo & City routes. A Central line link could have been really useful as the District is quite slow (but at least quite pleasant relative to the sweaty and hot Central line). Looking at the number of stations on their plans though, I do wonder whether it would have been any quicker. Perhaps CrossRail 2 with an interchange at Clapham Junction would be better. Not really sure.
Yeah District Line to Richmond seems to take forever! I remember travelling it years ago and you'd look up at the map above the seats thinking "must be nearly there now" and there would still be many stations to go.
@@marienbad2 I would regularly fall asleep on it for that reason. Lol
Never mind Crossrail 2 - at one time Crossrail 1 was supposed to go to Richmond
I think the trains into Waterloo are the undoing of any expansion of tube services to Richmond as the frequent stops on _any_ tube service means that trains into Waterloo will always provide the fastest service into the West End and City.
@@pulaski1 When I used to work by St. Paul's cathedral, my commute time was basically the same by either method, because getting from Waterloo over the river was so slow. I either had to do a 20 minute walk or a 20 minute trip on the W&C Line (10 minutes of which was standing in a queue). The only way to really speed up services from Richmond would be a Crossrail style service.
Another cracking video Jago
I'm never disappointed with your videos, my friend.
Fascinating as always, Jago. Since you have been filming in West London recently, a question: Do you know why there are only three platforms at Stamford Brook. I lived there back in the late 80s and could never work it out.
The station was built in the 1920s - at the time the two southernmost tracks (now the eastbound pair) were used by the District and the other two by the LSWR, but only for freight trains, so only the former needed platforms. (The redundant extra flyovers carrying the westbound LSWR track to Richmond under the District's tracks to Acton can still be seen west of Turnham Gereen)
When the Picadilly was extended, the tracks were rearranged with the District now using the outermost tracks - this required a new eastbound platform. As the eastbound Picadilly would not call at Stamford Brook there was no need for a platform on that track. The platform on the westbound Piucadilly was, of course, the original eastbound District track
@@norbitonflyer5625 Cheers NF. I follow that.
I was today years old when I discovered this channel... Obsessed.
Great video Jago
🥉
Personally I would take the CIRCLE line to Richmond - now it is not a circle - The Hammersmith Grove section could be rebuilt (dual way single line) , THROUGH that towerblock building. This would run onto the District and take the full District service. By Stopping all Piccadillys from Terminal 5 at Turnham Green this would effect a decent interchange for central London via District or Piccadilly. This simplifies District Service to Ealing Broadway and Wimbledon
I find it interesting that the Underground seriously considered inter-lining the District and Central lines for miles through the S.W. London suburbs. Today's operators are much more reluctant to do that, knowing how a late train on one service is likely to delay trains on more lines than just the one. I suspect the District would have been cut way back if the Central had reached Richmond.
I love the London tube. I lived and worked in London in the mid sixties and commuted every day from McKenzie road to Paddington. Miss it still. Thanks for your videos.
Very interesting jago this is one scheme that was new to me. You are very good in your researching. There is one further point that you didn't mention but does occur on lines shared between surface and tube stock namely the different platform heights had some of these schemes materialised.
Another fab and well researcged video about my neck of the woods, thanks Jago.
Great work as always
Richmond seemed to be the " go to " location at one time . I think i heard there was direct Richmond to Crystal Palace direct train service in the great day .
Abandoned Crystal Palace High Level that is .
It's a good Job all the lines merged to form London Transport - Would a nightmare today .
I'm glad that the Central Line never got extended to Richmond. It would have created capacity problems on the railway line to Richmond, that is currently shared by the District Line and the North London Line (or whatever non-intuitive name that has now).
What I would instead like to see is the Central Line branch to Ealing Broadway get extended to West Ealing and onto the Greenford Branch. This would rehabilitate the Greenford Branch and improve westward connectivity at Ealing Broadway.
That busy road crossover from one station to another station at Hammersmith to get to Richmond is a real pain. Especially in bad weather.
It’s a tricky one because on the one hand the Central and District seem to serve their own areas pretty well but their main sections don’t intersect until Mile End quite some way east. Apart from Ealing Broadway which doesn’t benefit from being a shared terminus in that regard.
Lunar New Year greetings from Richmond (Metro Vancouver), British Columbia, Canada.
I kinda zoned out, your vids are good for me to meditate to.
If it was the continentals, they'd have made an extra land purchase attached to the side of the M25 and reserved it for future use by either a future TFL circular railway embracing all of London, which joined up all the ends of the radial links OR to have envisaged a high speed mainline from the contintent looping South and North of the capital (Using the same land) before heading North. They then could have built the links, as was done with the M25, at their leisure and that of their bankers.
Trouble is, Mickey-Mouse thinkers with no foresight or motivation to change the status quo rule UK.
A greater problem is the time taken to implement major transport schemes. Each incoming government scraps the other side's schemes as a matter of principle, so you have about 5-10 years to get something to a state where it cannot be scrapped. Good luck with that.
Interesting video, I do like the Central line
Fabulous and it still could happen with a spur at Old Oak Common..
totally fascinating as always!
Spotted in the wild
Perhaps they should just colour the who network red and make it the Central Line. It would save on colours and a be much needed boost for the economy.
Imagine that strange section of the multiverse where every tube line, no matter how daft, was constructed!
I think the Central Line extension to Richmond could have come very handy and useful.
Looking at a map, a much cheaper and only slightly more cumbersome option would be building an interchange station in North Acton between Central Liine and Overground
There is a triangle which is bounded by the Central line, the old North London line (Richmond-Stratford) and the main line into and out of Paddington. It is only about 100 yards long.
@JagoHazzard, what happened with the over ground connection, the Broad street /Dalston junction to Richmond via Willesden junction where another branch line took it out to Watford where again it would branch on another excursion into the deepest darkest English country side " hear there be Dragons" or maybe it was a pub called the green dragon. the train however did have green livery, not sure who ran it, of cause It may be just a confused memory, I was 15 at the time and this was 1959.
Basically there were two lines: Broad Street to Richmond via Willesden Jnct HL and Euston to Watford Jnct wia WJ LL. But trains could also run Broad Street to Watford by using the link via Primrose Hill.
Central line to Richmond (and Shepperton) sounds so exciting...
As a Central fan, i would love to see more lines being red on the map....another great story, Jago, even if you made it a Yerkes free zone!
I like the idea of an extension to Chertsey (though the LSWR never extended the Shepperton Line to Chertsey either) as that's whereI grew up, and the Tube seemed a very long way away.
Happy Lunar New Year
Jago how about a Northern Line route that was never built for us South Londoners, where I believe the line was meant to go beyond Morden to North Cheam and Ewell.
That’s another one on my list!
Always thought it was a pity they couldn’t get a Victoria line extension to Northumberland park
And indeed further on up the Lea Valley. The two track section has been a real bottleneck and a lot of money was spent on a single extra track to Meridian Water. One feels that a Victoria line extension could have served those stations more cheaply and effectively with a couple of burrowing junctions where necessary, especially with rails already there to Northumberland Park depot. And there's an old route from Angel Road to Edmonton Green which could have been used and even taken over the Enfield Town branch.
Tapping into the suburban commuter zones to pay for the expensive inner city works made a lot of sense back in the day, but less so now that the greater organisation commands a mycelium (a figure I heard on the radio today) that provides the funding from everywhere else. Oh, and whilst we're on about mycelia, that façade at Richmond Terminus badly needs a shower of fungicide and several coats of masonry paint.
Been meaning to suggest this for a while - we hear quite often about a certain Charles Yerkes, but what about his successor as Chairman of Underground Electric Railways of London, (Sir) Edgar Speyer?
I first came across him in a book of Bill Bryson’s in which he doesn’t come over very well (he seemingly wanted Germany to win in WWI). Other sources have painted him in a better light, as a business leader and philanthropist etc.
Might be an interesting topic?
On a purely personal level, I would certainly use a Central Line service to Richmond, it would allow me to avoid having to use Waterloo for destinations I want to reach South West of London.
Richmond, an extremely busy commuter station and interchange with the District and South Western Railway, would also benefit with extra capacity to central London.
Taking the Central Line to Denham would be the only option that really makes sense to me now, except for of course the Metropolitan Line serving Watford Junction. Chiltern Trains serving Moor Park would be good as then you can get from Aylesbury to Watford Junction with just 1 Change. Merging Oyster and Various Smart Key Schemes would be Good Making Them all available to Pay as you Go Passengers and allowing Railcards to be Added, Add on those Bus Smart Cards (Including ENCT), And Wham Bam, One Travel Document for All Public Transport. My Loop would be MKC - Berkhamsted - Bus to Aylesbury, 2 Trains as opposed to 3 or even 3 and a walk to Watford Junction, Bus back to Berkhamsted, then train home, I might even just jump on the train from Watford Junction and go straight home. Single Paper Ticket Fares should at a Maximum be 60% of the Cost of a return for travelling in the same Time Period.
Much as I like the idea of lines being extended to wherever, I think Richmond is already well served by the District line and SWR National Rail. I have just checked with a tube map and found that it also has the Overground, which I hadn't appreciated.
I've long been a fan of alternate history but latterly as a kind of tube fan, what ifs for the Tube are fascinating. eg maybe taking the Fleet/Jubilee from say Baker Street to St Katherine Docks.
All of your videos are interesting, Mr H, but especially so. It has all the hallmarks of a spiffing wheeze, requiring only the intervention of that Jerkes chappie to make it complete. Thanks. Simon T
Love your videos sit, I'd like to see the central line (first version) head to Richmond.
Possibly a case of the more the merrier,the North London Railway which became LNWR then BR etc.also ran to Richmond originally from Broad Street via Acton.I believe that line is now TFL Overground with services from Stratford.I did read some time ago of a suggestion to link the Central at Northolt to Heathrow in connection with some airport plan but nothing seems to have come about with that idea.
If when one door closes another opens. . . your train is faulty.
The route from the original proposal is a complete mess. Considering that tunnels were built underneath roads, you have 2 very sharp turns, one on each side of Turnham Green.
2:30 You know a route is not going to work when it has a U-bend in it!
I tyhink that diagram is a bit exaggerated.
@@norbitonflyer5625 r-whoosh
Used to live at the top of askew road / Uxbridge road. It would have been transformative if the central line had gone along towards Ealing via Acton vale. Ah well
😧 Indeed, but far too sensible!
Not sure why I like this channel. I don't live in London and have no intention of ever doing so. I think it must be Jago's research, which is interesting, wherever you are.
My grandmother came from Richmond, Richmond Yorkshire that is.🤭
Would love to see the central line go to Richmond
Imagine if the Central Line being circular with the Piccadilly Line and the extension to Richmond had gone ahead. It would have been interesting.
Ah! The genius of private enterprise!
another detailed video Jago....
just wondering, if you can, could you do a video on extensions that could be/needed on the Underground...cheers
Did they ever find any interesting historical items when digging tunnels?
as a non-Londoner, how useful would a Central Line extension to just Hammersmith be? because I think that would have been the most plausible thing to happen together with the Piccadilly Line extension out west
wasnt there the hammersmith grove and shepherds bush connection off the west london about at that time
Can’t see the Central Line extended to Richmond. As the District Line already goes to Richmond. And the District Line used to run to Southend-on-Sea that you already done a video of.
But I do think that the Central Line should of continued all the way to Slough. Still I do like the idea of how tube lines would of looked like if they were extended outside of London.