Is This a Stupid Idea?
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 4 ก.ย. 2023
- You tell me... is this idea I have about tackling an annoying time zone problem feasible or is it just stupid? 😂
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The other challenge I can think of (other than timezone) is making sure that the other location can hear any questions brought forth by the audience. This isn't as much of a concern when the "other" people are completely remote and so have their own microphones in their computers, but can be a challenge when you have 2 large rooms on the call. This is generally solved by either passing a mic around or the presenter of the physical room repeating any questions before giving an answer. It's a completely solvable issue, but one I sometimes feel is under-prepared for.
That's my concern as well. One way to get around it is to have room mics, but you need good feedback suppression.
I think this is a great idea, but to do it well is going to need probably several thousand dollars worth of audio equipment and a week or two to work out the bugs.
Oh, our audio setup for linking everyone together and making sure everyone can hear and such is outstanding. Like, it's fucking voodoo magic, the way our sound equipment works in the classrooms 😂
@@DeviantOllamI’m getting the feeling there’s an array of microphones and speakers in the ceiling in both locations. Is that the case?
I don’t see AV setups really ever but I did see a bit of an array-based setup on a job site when I got to peek at the software and it’s magical how it regulates output so input can come through. Someone in the back can be whispering and it’s picked up on microphone, it’s wild.
@@DeviantOllam I've also noticed you 99% of the time do the PERFECT ❤ thing of repeating the question asked during conferences, rather than just answering, so everyone gets to hear what was asked. Thank you for that!❤👍
@@DeviantOllamThis reminds me of a presentation I gave in the main boardroom of a fortune 100 company. The table could comfortably seat 50 people. They had microphones hanging over everyone's seat, and speakers in front of them. This was perfectly balanced and calibrated, so someone at one end of the table could talk in a normal voice, and someone at the opposite end could hear you crystal clear - without it sounding artificial. It took me a few minutes to get used to it, but it was awesome.
Anyway you saying voodoo magic made me think of that.
Would love to virtually join a Flipper class. Timezone wouldn't matter to me. You could almost make it a after hours event starting at 4am Vagas time and just force everyone to wake up early. 😅
There are time zones later than Pacific.
You could bill it as a 'SECRET' and get people in Vegas to stay up all night in order to attend.
Vegas local?
I would love that too - but I'm guessing that's not an option for them (really, for any of the classes they make money on) because the education is somewhat proprietary and if they streamed it to client computers there would be no way to prevent screen recording and such.
It's sad. I can't go to these events as my partner is immunocompromised (can't risk getting sick and bringing that back home), but I would love to have access to this education to further refine my skills and knowledge.
Still, I run a business as well (with great reluctance, but if I want to make money without having a boss it's kind of a must) and I do understand - these classes are part of their bread and butter, and I could see them losing customers if their class sessions were all available as pirated videos. Those videos wouldn't have the same value as being in class and asking questions, but they would cover a lot.
I think it would work great for the most popular classes (RFID, Flipper). If you're creative about it, you MIGHT be able to get away with a staggered start time - start at 9 at both places, but move some modules around so that there are common simulcast modules, and maybe 1-2 modules delivered locally at each site if times are off.
I think the point is to have one person teaching multiple classes in multiple locations. If you have to have a second person for some modules , it could be two classes from the start.
I don't wanna insult you , just seams like a hole in your logic.
@@raphaelfranzen9623 but you need local instructors at both locations anyway. so why not let them teach a class or two?
I would love to see a Flipper class. I don't care what time it is. I would need to watch online
My daughter takes her concurrent enrollment through a simulcast and it works. The only hitch is if the instructor isn't skilled at handling questions from the remote site.
I worked for an organization that did webinar training, which was shorter than what you're discussing, but we tried to make the schedule work for as many people as possible, out out the times, and trust the attendees to make whatever arrangements they need to make it work.
If there's any non-sequential modules in the class that you can move around that might be an idea to try. Have EST do a 2-3hr module first thing, then PST start with the 2nd module and do the 1st module last.
TLDR; IMO not dumb. I'm not US based, but anything that improves accessibility to courses that you do is amazing. Timezones are a royal pain in the behindus but there are ways to make it work. If you had the simul-cast stuff at the same time, but then jiggled the workshoppy bits and other stuff around, it could really easily work. Portable mics in each room for any questions so both sides can hear.... I love how you have accessibility requirements / remote attendance at the forefront too. I love what you do and having more people able to experience Deviant-adjacent things has only gotta be a good thing.
I think it's a great idea! More opportunity and availability in VA is great. Sometimes work will pay for the classes but not the travel, too.
I was patiently waiting for you to post a video about the Flipper Zero ;) I heard you mentioning it during a few speeches but I was expecting a dedicated video and now I saw your thumbnail!
that being said.. I don't think it's a stupid idea, but yeah - timezones suck :P
As someone who worked with LEO, AF, FD, EMS, SAR…. I am used to 24hr/day wakey-wakey…. And sadly, don’t have much concern for “9-5ers”.
Or Mon-Fri.
We only used clocks and calendars to document our responses.
I learned “If it is important enough to be needed, if it is important enough to you, then you will get your ass up”
Complaints of “It’s too early, I haven’t had coffee, I haven’t had breakfast, I haven’t combed my hair, ad nauseum” we NOT tolerated.
So start what time, start what day, to me I’m in.
I’m honest enough to admit I may not be able to afford the training, though.
Makes a TON of sense to service a bigger crowd that far apart.👍 Hope it works out for you guys! And the flipper class looks awesome!😁
I did a basic intro to the Flipper Zero and Physical Pen Testing at Dragoncon this week, as well as did an impromptu lockpicking class!
Did you upload a video?
I love it! Could you have an hour or so of flex time for lab stuff that caters to the local time zones? Kinda like remote-first companies have "core hours" that all employees work for the sake of synchronous meetings.
It'd take some doing to think through the courseware and find a module/lab that could be extracted from elsewhere in the course and taught that way, but it might help ease the time zone difference as well.
A virtual flipper class would be awesome!!
This is a great idea. The first time I did a distributed learning experience was in 1989, via George Mason University and VA Tech who offered a closed channel satellite TV broadcast course on hazardous waste management. They did classes on everything from airborne radar to radiation safety, with people taking classes all over the US.
It can be an excellent learning experience, but it needs good instructors/facilitators.
Man, I would love to have the extra money and time to be able to attend some of these seminars. I got my first interest in security some 15+ years ago on lockpicking 101 and remembered your handle, then a few years back saw some of your speeches at defcon and I must say that I always found you to be an excellent story teller and I am glad to find your channel and sub.
always dig your set aesthetics, amigo. hip, topically relevant and kind to the eye..
Having delivered training in person and virually, I think it is a good idea as long as the simulcast adds value to the students on both ends. If it becomes aburden or distracts from the course that is when it becomes an issue. Incorporating ways to integrate everyone into discussions or breakouts to foster collaboration between the various locations would be fun to do. The more diverse your crowd the better the discussions and interactions.
as one who resides in a zero g recliner do to injuries received from "bodyslamming planet earth" and living to tell about it, i have no time constraints! love all that you guys do! the only way to keep ppl honest is to have keys to everything!
Living in EST and having attended many trainings in PST, the timezones can certainly be a struggle. If you're squeezing a lunch break in there, it's difficult to hit any reasonable middle ground. As long as everyone knows the schedule, probably worth giving a try.
I know Feds who love that they get to work 6:00A to 2:30P here on the East coast, and get frustrated when asked to work later. And, then there are those who prefer to work later, as late as 9:30A, which lets them off at 6:00P. And, they have to get permission to work later than 6:00P or earlier than 6:00A. And, that's why there's a fair amount of activities that get scheduled in what they call core hours: 9:30A to 2:30P. But, that's a typical work week. They tend to be more willing when it's something they want to do.
I personally think it would be a great idea. There are also a lot of training venues who record their 'simulcast' courses and then offer those recordings with follow up email/chat support for additional questions as an added 'online course' option. I think that opening up the availability to this sort of teaching and knowledge would greatly help out those who are simply too busy to travel to attend an in person course.
Seems like a good idea. My suggestion would be to have beginner classes aimed at non-professionals on the weekend (Saturday 9a Pacific/noon Eastern to 1pm/4pm half-day Flipper intro?) and professional classes - more advanced - during the week during business hours - 9-5 in a given time zone, join the class that most aligns with your schedule.
I’ve looked at some RTA classes and frankly for where I am at - as someone who is an infosec professional but doesn’t do pentesting, is “good” but not expert with Proxmark, Flipper, etc - I’d love to have a ‘Babik’s Advanced Class” or the like. Or is THAT dumb, and maybe I just need to buy him a few beers at a con sometime? :D
UK here, Could you do some “half day” classes that run in our evening, but your afternoon? Then people who have day jobs can attend virtually, but you aren’t working odd times!
Sounds cool. I would love to go to the Virginia location and I like later times, can't do Friday night or Saturday though...
I install PACS as a side business and I really want to know more about how Desfire credentials work and what else I can use them for.
I took that last PACS + Flipper class you ran. I thought it was very good, but I did it virtually, from the east coast, which meant I was noon to 8pm. While I admit I was a little irritated I couldn't find the time zone anywhere in the lead up and mailings, it certainly was within my abilities and schedule. I suspect many people on the east coast would be able to do 11-7, or 12-8. so, I can't guarantee it's a good idea, but to me A.) it certainly seems worth trying and B.) I kinda feel like you already tested some of the more difficult aspects of it.
Yeah we are now talking a lot more about keeping the Pacific class at the regular time and having the east coast audience shifted to be afternoon/ evening. That way there's at least a sane meal break. Even if it's a dinner break.
Also we will make the times of the class more prominent in the listing in future, we promise ☺️
OMG yes please!! I have a Flipper (currently training in penn testing) and still covid conscious. I would ABSOLUTELY do a remote class! I just discovered your channel and I'm hooked!
So long as there are instructors in both places. As some things/questions are much easier to answer during the handson portion with an instructor walking around the class and checking in with each person. If I am paying for a course with an instructor is the one on one when I'm not quite getting something which is what I appreciate.
Similarly when running training, there are people who won't ask a question in the group but happy to ask when you are going around the room to check on everyone. Realise when talking to some on how to repharse something to make it click with them.
Not sure if you could do it with your existing curriculum, but if the simulcast works out, you could use the time zone differences to your advantage. Something like having east Coast focusing on blue team in the morning, and then when the west coast wakes up, they start on red team stuff. So as the West is trying attacks on their access systems, the East is seeing their attempts come in, trying to identify what's an "employee" and what's an "attacker"
Alternatively, you could split the course up so that you've got half the lessons solo, and half the lessons simulcast, so each coast can have a 9-5
Personally I would love to see a EU based class, or able to remote into it from EU even if I have to stay up to stupid hours. (The EU dedicated one would be nice as there are some differences in places. )
jep totally agree
So, we have done that actually. We have run classes at a strange time for US people but it's been to cater to Europeans or even folk in Australia. We're going to do that again
@@DeviantOllam The times you said here would still be somewhat doable in the EU, at least for some. It would be 4pm - midnight Central European time or one hour earlier further west.
@@DeviantOllam I'm in Melbourne Australia and would love to participate in some of your courses. ATM it would be an overnight course but if you ran some online for our timezones that would be killer.
Simulcast would be a great idea. I'm too far from Vegas to comfortably get there and back in a weekend, but Virginia I could pull off.
I've done training across multiple time zones. You end up hating the other time zone. Things such as breaks for lunch are always broken. You're either up super late or super early.
This isn't stupid as long as people are willing going into these classes are aware of the weird times and people have access to the same kind of equipment.
I would also add, have some friendly east vs west coast rivalry to help people team up to 'beat' the other guys. The better everyone learns, the better everyone scores. Bonus round is both teams vs the previous last teams results ( or a made up number to beat ) ... have some ARG hacking game that they need to save the world or something.
I love the idea of simulcasting it between coasts. I'd get up early and take the trip down to your virginia site to start around 11 and I don't mind staying late since I'm a night owl anyway.
Do you do any virtual zoom classes compatible with European time zones? I am perfectly fine with getting up at 6:00am or staying up until like 11:00pm for a zoom meeting, but jumping onto an airplane and flying to Vegas just isn't an option for me, even though I would love to.
I think that people who love the content will stick arround regardless of the time I would say that any persons that dont have work restrictions should take the later class but if it is held over the weekend it wont matter regardless. Also yes the barbie movie was a great watch, "im just ken" was a banger 👌🏼 🔥
I think it would be a great experiment. I'm a New England guy , getting to Vegas would be tough, but a trip to DC is much easier, so it would be something I would be interested in in the coming months and years
Where does one obtain a flipper from a supplier in the states since Amazon dropped it from their sales.
I think the timezone thing isn't the biggest issue. I have been part of other remote classes and that is rarely an issue. People will make time for things they really care about. Often the biggest issue is things like questions. Often you had to e-mail questions later after class to get them answered. Make sure you set some method up for virtual people to ask questions even if it is only giving them an e-mail they can use after class. One issue on classes like this is timing as well. I think putting the flipper class on the weekend between other classes is ideal. Many of the people are going to want to take multiple classes so it makes sense if it works out in a way where they might be able to take 2 weeks and do multiple classes.
Do you offer classes at the normal level? What courses do you have? My company just axed any travel due to recession fears and tightening of the purse strings... but I could still do remote training without issue. I'd love to use my training budget to take a few of your courses.
I work for a company called Galvanize, we do Programming Instruction, so a similar technical field, all virtually since the pandemic. Timezones are one of the biggest killers. Instructors will be out of sorts if they have to work at weird times for them, and students who aren't used to it will perform noticeably worse. As fun as this sounds, I don't think it's meaningfully adding to either of the courses to do it as a simulcast, and is just a nerd trap of 'because I can'. There are often other considerations like introducing remote computers that have to be troubleshot by instructors can eat up a significant portion of time.
I think this would be good but at that point whats the diffremce of pre recorded. I live weekend drive away from virgina so that be a great option for me but im just curious
This is a great idea, also there's so many different ways you can do this and it still be interactive.
DEV PLZ!!! DO THIS!! MY HEALTH KEEPS ME LOCKED IN MY HOUSE AND MY APPEARANCE SCARES PEOPLE BUT I WOULD MAKE THE TRIP FROM PA TO VA A DAY OR SO AHEAD OF TIME AND I WOULD FEEL NOT SO JUDGED THERE... IM SURE!!
Oh my, how does your appearance scare people? Sorry, that's a very invasive question. But, yeah, we would try to make every accommodation we could for you.
@@DeviantOllam Dev, the hours of wisdom passed on mixed with some confidence drenched "Well, Fuck 'Em anyway!" attitude has lifted my down-trodden soul to a place that I couldn't have found if not for your videos and your work with the public, so for my wife and I... You're basically family. LoL. My appearance scares people because slightly before coronavirus hit the country I started to feel really ill all the time... (Not Covid) .. and one day I wake up with sores, blackspots, etc all over my body.. My face has been spared so far, and fingers crossed that doesn't change.. But, these lesions have baffled experts.. and the other experts just don't have the time for me due to prior drug use. It is horrible.. They don't heal, they hurt like heck...
Hey Dev, did The Flipper class ever come together??
I am also not an early riser, and as I live in the DC area (I seriously considered taking time off work to help with your renovation), I'd be thrilled with an 11-7 timeframe. In the DC area, this would probably also reduce my commute time to and from your facility by on the order of THREE HOURS.
What's the possibility of having a recorded class? As somebody in Pacific time that can't get up early because… Physiology I'd still pay and love to learn how to do a flipper. And I haven't been able to get my hands on one yet, so when I do… I'd love to be able to enjoy the class.
A few weeks ago, an old friend who now lives in Virginia-just south of D.C.-invited me to visit. He said the best time would be sometime in November.
Being that I'm currently undertaking a huge move between states and also being one of the aforementioned people for whom this isn't a career (yet), we'll see if it's in the cards and budget.
All that said, I would love the opportunity to learn some professional red teaming and to meet others in the cybersec field. Hopefully it goes without saying that potentially meeting you in-person would be a hell of a feather in my cap. You have my vote for in favor!
is it possible to move some modules around for the east coast and west coast folks so that you have to teach certain modules twice but for say 5 out of 8 hours of the day you are having both classrooms asking questions at the same time? so start your east coast folks at 9 am and your Vegas folks at 9 am respectively and just move your modules so that you the vegas folks are starting at the 3 hour marks for the DC peeps. I know it would not work for everyone or every class necessarily but just an idea.
This sounds like a great idea Dev, I’m sure you’ve already thought about it but would you mail the modules and physical components of the classes, such as modules for the flipper, to those attending remotely or would everyone have to get their own?
flipper is just now starting to break through as something more than a 'clone and replay' tool. I've been using it for a few months, and the advances that have been coming are bringing a whole different world with it.
Ssshhhhh. ;)
Not sure if this has been mentioned yet, but if you typically provide a lunch break, that could turn into a headache very quickly.
Hmmm, that's true... It'd have to be like a very late lunch / early dinner break on the east coast
Back in 2015 I was able to go to the Hak5 red team training and loved it. Would love to see a flipper class also. We should be able to go to either Vegas or VA so that's a draw. Being in Mississippi it would be VA being closer though.
I love my flipper, and I'm only using it to 5% of its potential. It has my work badge, allegedly my maintenance guy's master badge, my TV power button, and my garage door opener. It's a fun, little tool.
A best practice is for a speaker to repeat questions from the audience before providing the answer. It annoys me when I can’t hear the question but only the answer.
I'd love to learn more uses of my flipper zero! I can't travel very easily though so I can't go to Vegas nor Virginia...
Yeah if it's just two days, people can deal with a weird schedule. When I was studying for my CPA exams, we did all day on Fridays and Saturdays and Sundays several weekends in a row. One weekend is not too bad
I would absolutely get up early or stay late for a class I really want to attend. It would not matter, and I am sure your classes are desirable. I don't think it's going to be the issue you may be concerned with. Waking up early in Vegas will require more coffee, but I still think it's great.
Asking if it's a dumb idea is a thing not enough leadership people do. This isn't a dumb idea at all, though, and though it may be tricky to decide the timing, I think it's just another chance for more people to see your classes that otherwise might not have made it.
On a personal project-related note, I've been trying to pick someone's brain that happens to be experienced in both Raspi and Proxmark3. I made a cyberdeck that worked for a while, but then my proxmark died when the usb connection broke. New proxmark3 units aren't just swapping out like I thought they should.
certain schools hold pre-recorded classes online. other than asking questions directly & interacting on the spot, is this a consideration? or do live classes hold more value in this type of training because students will need to react and think on the spot?
I like your thinking outside of the box and you should do it.
I could get behind a virtual class, for sure.
Is it possible to run one module early at one site only and repeat it late at the other, so they are both working togeather from 9, with one class starting on different material?
Something to consider: is there a 3-4 hour chunk that could be done out of the usual order?
for example, the VA folks are learning about chunk "B" from 8 to 11, then everyone does "A" together, and then the NV folks learn chunk "B" after the VA group is done for the day?
See what other learning institutions do for multi classroom telepresence. On the timezone spit some hands on sections that can be run at one location at the start and at the end at the other, now the main block can be run without getting up at early o'c.
If it were me and I was at the simulcast site, with no instructors or just assistants (not instructors), I’d be willing to do it but would expect it to be discounted vs the in-classroom experience with the instructor(s). If the simulcast site also has instructors, then I guess no discount, but then I would also ask, why do the simulcast? In that case why not just have a separate class entirely?
Yeah, the question of whether to discount it is also valid if it's at a strange time.
But the "remote" site would be fully staffed
Yes, that works. Also DO needs to start a specific Flipper Zero email list for all those interested to inform them when/if he makes that class available.
If you record a version and sell it I'd buy for sure! Would be good for international customers like me :)
You could do half the day hybrid, the other half local. That should solve the time zone issue while still providing some benefit.
Flipper class sounds like a lot of fun!
Any chance those of us across the pond can jump in on this? Anything on the cards long term to have an RTA presence across the pond? UK/EU/AU's/NZ? If not you then a 3rd party you trust to deliver the RTA content to your standard?
Can you share a link to your pacs class.
Not totally related but does RTA ever go over job opportunities that become available from getting their certifications and how to land the job? I want to take a number of the courses but financially I want be sure it will payoff when it comes to job hunting and being able to put those skills to good use.
Thank you!
(PS. Remote flipper course sounds awesome)
Would the Flipper class be appropriate for someone who’s a beginner to hardware hacking?
God, I would love to go to all your classes at some point, but boy howdy do I not have the money for that
Federales like sleeping in too. The times sound good to me, execute.
If you dont find it viable, you can still rotate the first/second parts between he beginning and end depending on timeszone. like first two hours in East coast is the last two classes (yes taught twice) but at least you have them knocked out in one day.
Another option would be to have each day session being 2 sections, one local, one shared, with the local being 'early' for east coast, and 'late' for west coast.
I think it's a good idea. Like you said, most professional training starts at 8. So I'm used to starting at 8. But, and hear me out...
Another crazy dumb idea, what about staggered start? East coast starts at 9 EST and does a couple things in the first hours, then west coast joins. Simulcast class does their curriculum in parallel, then as east coast drops off, west coast loops back and covers whatever the east did in the morning hours.
It seems like an Arduino or Raspberry Pi, but with programs that are little spicy on the side.
Saw something of this sort on Red Team’s website and thought it looked cool.
Simla casting classes would be a great idea especially for those who aren’t able to travel, or travel as far. Not stupid and all!
I think this is a great idea, and I have to say that I really appreciate you acknowledging the current disastrous public health situation and the fact that it has meant that immunocompromised people (and anyone who spends time around immunocompromised people) have been so comprehensively left out of the much-vaunted 'return to normal'.
Maybe in person setup help for the first hour of each day, and simulcast the more unique and novel parts in the middle. Then some more exercises that are repeatable (but not essential?) something like “reading the manual” that VA does early and LV does late in the day.
I would love to attend one of those classes. However i'm european. And there is no way i can afford these classes.
I'd be disappointment I couldn't make it to the main meeting but still thrilled if I could attend a virtual meeting in a classroom full of other people and the gear to do the labs. On a side note I'm very active in the Flipper community and I COMMEND Flipper Inc for getting people interested in electronics, coding, and security. I really didn't see the interest in electronics as a potential side effect of Flipper but it's genuine. People want to build accessories for Flipper and that's great in my book.
Side note to a side note: In the US are people seeing ibuttons in the wild and where are they seeing them?
Hard for me to travel but would love to take a virtual flipper course.
Wait, you have a flipper class? Dude I'm about an hour away from your DC office and didn't even know! Ok I need to sign up for this.
I like the be good and be a good person! Best advice ever..... listen to this man. 😊
Would recording and making it a VOD be an option?
What firmware are you using for the flipper?
Can you do a none-linked section between 9-11, followed by the linked section, and then the other side cannhave the same none-linked section after.
I know we always struggle with business meetings we always struggle with timezone spanning meetings...everyone on the west coast complaining they are too early while east coast complains they want to go home. But for recreational hobby people, an afternoon/evening could be a plus.
During the pandemic, I attended a few virtual classroom seminars for my Industry. These were held out of Quebec and there were people from across the country (Newfoundland to British Columbia). Yes the start time was a little later and it ate into my evening a bit (I was attending from Eastern Standard Time) so I think it ran from 1030 am to 630 pm (good memory but it's short). For two days per seminar, it wasn't the end of the world.
The Flipper Zero class sounds great. But I am up until 3 am speaking to Asia and Europe. Do you have a Podcast or a way I can watch and pause and watch again over a weekend?
Life is crazy as you know. I am not getting up at 6 am unless I have to pee! LOL and then there is to much delta brainwaves happening for me to pay attention.
Is their a unit you can throw at the start of the east and tack onto the west on the end of the day? And like the middle of the day is both sites…On a two day course I doubt that would work out very well. But to me 11-7 is fine, and so is 8-4… but if someone’s travelling to Vegas 8-4 might be an ask…
I've presented and had to attend "simulcast" training and by far, the best solution is to pick one and go with it. People will attend regardless.
What if you ran the same class over 2.5 days? Perhaps you can juggle the time zone difference better that way and if everything goes well you can run two classes a week Monday to Friday.
If i was in the position to take one, I wouldn't mind going to a later class since VA is a bit closer to me.
And if i was in vegas, 8am wouldn't be too early for me.
We continually try to balance large differences in multiple time zones for our events. It always sucks for somebody. Just recognize it for what it is and since this a voluntary sign up, know if they want it bad enough they would be there ant any hour.
where is a safe place to get a flipper like device?
Hacker Warehouse sells them and they're the official importer
I'd love this and would do my best to attend whatever the time!
Please please do a response to the Liberty Safe issue