Honestly Hayden being human at first and becoming a robot to cheat death is infinitely more cool to me then him being a generic angel. Like him and the seraphim should of been completely separate.
@@EnhancedNightmareI believe it was said somewhere that he placed his soul into braindead human body. And when it developed Cancer he went with the robo body
Yeah, would've been cooler if they just did something like... he had a near-death experience and his mechanical frame was modeled after the seeraphim... of which there are several, as Part Two showed us... which makes him even less special now.
Y know it's really misanthrope to pretend being a saviour to mankind eyes but having other interests and basically being a master of puppets with divine origin and being so narcissistic, than sounds very misanthrope lol
I genuinely dont think hayden wants to make money I mean he is basically the most powerfull person on the entire solar system and the CEO of the biggest company to have ever existed yet his actions never screamed "i put profit first" Like he says in the end of 2016 "i have no choice without argent it WILL be worse" I think he genuinely wants to save humanity from itself even if his vision for how to do it is miss guided
Everytime someone says the story in Eternal doesn't matter, all I can think about is the unskippable dialogue Samuel has just talking about fun facts about Hell for TWO MISSIONS
I really hate how sam was treated in eternal he is literally just living wikipedia and thats it, also i've noticed that they straight up changed his lore, in the codex of 2016 its says he was some guy who had cancer and put his brain in a robot suit to live on or something i forgot, now hes big angel man, wish they kept samual as samual and the seraphim as the seraphim
They didnt change it. He was always the Seraphim but in a cloned human body. That then got cancer and turned into a 3 meter tall robot. He was supposed to guide humanity through their discovery of Argent Energy, cuz the father told him to.
@@tmantman993 correct, and the reason he allowed all of that to happen was because his human body (and by extension the piece of his brain that runs the cybernetic body) is susceptible to demonic corruption
I remember being VERY exited to see Hayden in Eternal. Is he happy VEGA survived? Is he regretful that his Argent search led to Earth’s invasion? But we get no emotion or arc at all. He’s just VEGA 2.
I know this video is kinda old, but you misunderstood many things, Hayden/Samur didn't provoke Hell's invasion on earth and if he was extracting energy from Mars wasn't because he wanted more money, he isn't even the owner of the whole UAC, he did it because he knew that the earth needs the energy for their survival, and it was Olivia the one who was willing to sacrifice all the UAC personnel for her own gain causing the events of 2016 and she would have been successful if he hasn't spent so much time preparing for this scenario. He might not have humanity's best interest in mind since it was all part of a bigger conspiracy, but ultimately, I can't see his course of action as morally wrong or unjustified giving the context.
No dude, he still was ok on using argent energy on Doom 2016, which means he doesn't care about the "tortured souls in hell" or whatever. So he was not as bad as Olivia but he his morale is still questionable at best. Btw, Doom Eternal lore is just a mess. All they did was retcon the entire story.
@@rodrigoalves-cg6xv I don't think that's a fair criticism, Argent Energy was produced with and without Earth extracting from the Argent Fracture. Samuel Hayden was tasked by the father to guide humanity in the discovery of Argent Energy and protect them from the hell invasion because no one was capable of defeating hell. Earth was enduring a devastating energy crisis, as morally incorrect as it is to use the souls, they weren't the ones killing innocents to produce it, it was the demons. Even without Hayden, the UAC will go their way to extract and experiment with Argent, Samuel being there was the best outcome, specially considering that without him the Slayer would still be in the Sarcophagus, because the UAC would be corrupted or will not have interest in a random tombstone.
@@rodrigoalves-cg6xv not everything in the story is a mess. Plus it's not really that complex. Also a lot of it is left up to interpretation. So truthfully it's not a big deal. But it can be confusing if your not actually sorting through the lore.
@@dylanshaw5700people give the story too much shit but honestly I think people don’t pay attention to it and actually read the lore in-depth so most just are confused or dumb tbh sure some is left to interpretation tho it is easy to find what it means if you read, and there’s a few plot holes yet it isn’t a mess, I am just sick of idiots slandering a great game with good story and world building tbh I will literally fight anyone and beat their ass in a verbal argument or a text argument cuz most people are morons to me.
Samuel tries to save humanity from economic collapse and doesn't see demons as a threat. One can't kill porverty and hunger. Doomguy tries to save humanity from demons and doesn't see energy crisis as a threat. One can live in poverty and hunger
The way I see it is: The Slayer doesn't see eye to eye with Samuel's vision because his plan involves Hell. Argent Energy being beneficial or not to humanity isn't the point; it being tied to Hell is more than enough reason for the Slayer to completely disagree with Samuel Hayden's plans, no matter how altruistic they may seem. Furthermore, Argent Energy requires mortal souls and the Wraith's essence (Sentinel Energy) to be created. So I'm theorizing that during his time with the Sentinels he would've found out about the twisted process behind it and ultimately placed his allegiance with the Night Sentinels during the Civil War. But we'll see how this actually played out in the upcoming Dark Ages game.
I don't even think Eternal gets the gameplay right. There's a few things it innovates well on, like the dash. But then they nerfed melee only to replace it with that that weird mechanic. Glory kills got less brutal with the inclusion of the arm blade. The platforming puzzles added nothing meaningful to the game (bet everyone forgot those were in the game). And the sandbox got notably more one note, with some weapons basically becoming objectively the best weapons to use against certain enemies (i.e. why would you ever not use a shotgun grenade on a cacodemon?)
@@PANCAKEMINEZZ using the shotgun to kill a cacodemon is like the 10th most efficient way to kill it. How much have you actually played eternal? it has one of the most complex combat loops ever created. Bloodpunch is much more well incorporated than a generic melee, you can use it to do a bunch of damage to doom hunter and cyber mancubus and any other demon and you can also use it to kill a bunch of fodder and get shield or health. Also when you get upgrades you can charge it with shield and health if you avoid taking damage and you can use it way more often. It is very good at faltering as well, it completely stops any demon hit by it. This is just one tool In DOOM slayers arsenal I can write even more about, every tool is like this, the combat loop is so deep it took me years to perfect my playstyle to what it is now. DOOM 2016s gameplay feels way more experimental, its a bridge between wolfenstein and DOOM Eternal.
I liked 2016’s gameplay before I played eternal, but now eternal’s nosecandy gameplay spoiled me and I can no longer appreciate 2016’s gameplay, only its superior story and atmosphere
Im currently studying character and story creation and there is always this one mistake i dont want to ignore. After creating a good character and you are deciding to give him/her more developement in the next story and when you figure out one you think its good, later over time you start to think it’s not actually that great and fitting for the character even if it has a thing that you find interesting. Thats exacly what happened to Samuel Hayden. Too bad they did not double think.
I was so bummed out that literally nothing in 2016 played into Samuel's boss battle. Not even a simple throw-away line like "You've had this coming for a long time now." or... SOMETHING! They're fighting to the death and their history is a complete non-factor! AUGH!!!
Eternal should have ended with the crucible absorbing the dead icon of sin's power and then Hayden steals it and you fight him as the final boss. He basically has no free will in Eternal and only follows the Slayer's orders. It would've been a great twist ending for Hayden to have just been pretending he couldn't act during most of the story. Also Hayden is not an angel and it was a horrible retcon.
I’m not sure what his motive would be to try and fight the slayer tho. Hayden provided the world infinite energy. He wasn’t evil In 2016, he just had a horrible lack of foresight when it came to Olivia’s research.
Similar mindset on my end. I absolutely LOVE the gameplay of Doom Eternal (I have over 600 hours of playtime on Steam), but the lore/story in Eternal is pure dogshit. Hugo Martin knows how to develop addicting gameplay, but he needs to step away from the writing duties. His writing is like that of a child.
I kinda headcanon that 2016 hayden was replaced at some point by the consciousness of their captive angel in the UAC atlantica. The voice was similar enough for the slayer and even vega to buy it, but ultimately, Samuel himself is just gone. replaced. and it'd be easier to do so with him especially, since dude's 98% robot. So dude magically knowing about things he shouldn't, having views and stances completely contradictory to what he had in 2016, it's all because that body hasn't been inhabited by Hayden for a very long time, since Samur needed a way to free himself, and saw samuel as the perfect trojan horse.
In 2016 he was a man that was trying to give the cleanest and most powerful form of energy to humanity to erase poverty. He wanted it "for the good of humanity" so that we wouldn't have an energy/resource crisis. He was willing to accept casualties in the pursuit of energy because he thought that providing for mankind was more important than losses occurred during production. Then in Eternal he says *one* good line "You can't just blow a hole in the surface of Mars!" and the rest is Doom wiki. Him being the Seraphim isn't even a good twist, and the hype around the game and rampant Doom theory vids on TH-cam basically seeded the idea in most fans' heads anyway - so a lot of us already expected it to happen. Now if he based his robot frame on the Seraphim, or injected himself with Seraphim DNA like some kind of Bioshock/Resident Evil attempt to upgrade himself, that would've been better - and maybe the Seraphim takes over afterwards. Maybe he could've been involved with the Dark Lords of hell or something and slowly become possessed, leading to him going crazy in Eternal and later in the TAG 1 & TAG 2 DLC campaigns.
@@matthewblaikie7903he turned from an alien/angel thing to a human cuz he couldn't interact with hell stuff with his alien/angel body, so he went alien/angel=human=robot and as robot he start working with hell stuff and not get corrupted until TAG 2
Hahaha this video sums up my issues with the DOOM Fortress, like iD thought i would actually be more interested in reading about how he got the Fortress then actually liberating the Fortress for myself. DOOM Eternals story would be so much better if it just picked up where 2016 left off and the first 3rd was getting the Fortress and off Mars, the second 3rd was fighting Hell on Earth and last 3rd was in Hell getting trhe Sword to take down the Icon of Sin. Its simpler, more straight forward and you don't lose a single heavy metal moment other then really weird and out of place fantasy settings that feel like they are from a totally different franchise.
I came up with a fix to Samuel/Samur years ago. Samuel discovered the tomb containing Samur, and The Father's consciousness. It's established by The Father's story and existence that you can separate a being into 3 parts, their body, their soul, and their mind. (Oh my god why is so much of Doom lore identical to Kingdom Hearts???) Samuel was possessed by Samur's mind when he came into contact with his body, becoming a host for him to enact his will through. Samur gradually begins overtaking Samuel, who isn't aware of his presence in his mind, as he rises through the ranks in the UAC, Samur's knowledge and intellect giving them a distinct advantage. Samuel's human brain cannot fully contain Samur's mind, thus resulting in his brain cancer. Samur then influences Samuel to come up with the idea to create a synthetic body, suspiciously similar in design to Samur's original Maykr body. Over the course their time in this new body, Samur takes over even more of Samuel's personality, making him perceive thoughts that Samur came up with as his own. In the time between 2016 and Eternal, Samur takes over completely, explaining the complete shift in his demeanor and way of speaking when you meet with him again. Instead of retrieving the "Seraphim's Key" in UAC Atlantica, you retrieve Samur's Soul Sphere. Once he has both his soul and body back, he abandons his living human disguise completely. This would then open up the opportunity for Samuel himself to return in the future, now separated from Samur, who probably didn't expect his consciousness to have survived throughout the whole ordeal. Samuel wouldn't be too pleased about having his life literally stolen, and not having any achievements to his name that were actually his own, leading to him likely allying with The Slayer for the sake of getting revenge, and potentially making something with his life on his own terms, with his own skills, with his own intellect. Self control and agency over your own existence, no longer being a puppet for someone else's machinations, this would be the throughline that would tie Samuel Hayden and the Doom Slayer together.
When I was on the last bit of Eternal I fully expected Samuel to hijack my ship for his own nefarious purposes because he had been set up as so untrustworthy. But nope, he's chill with just being VEGA 2.0
To me Hayden is someone who’s goals align with the Doom Slayer but uses simpler methods when it suits him regardless of consequences that don’t affect him directly. When he has the argent spewing crucible on earth he will say what he really thinks about the process that makes it. When he spews out exposition left and right and then says that taking the crucible blade will awaken the titan it means “take the damn sword and let the thing do what it wants” since he gives no alternatives. He only brings back the Slayer in 2016 when things have get out of hand. Hayden to me only has issues with the Slayer because of their difference in methods. I wish they brought him back in the second dlc to help you after seeing an enlightened Vega agreeing with your methods.
They should have just made him Satan acting as a false savior during humanity's energy crisis. He was ultimately the reason demons wrecked humanity. Samuel Hayden S. Hayden Satan
Simple explanation of Hayden's skipped redemption arc: Hayden isn't actually doing this out of the good of his own heart. He is just attempting to appeal to those perceiving him as good.
Hugo confirmed he's actually not a bad guy, but the guy with a really big ego. He actually believed he's better than both Father and Davoth in terms of the management and whatnot but failed miserably and didn't accept it
Hayden it's kinda in a middle point where he is an antagonist but not really a villain, he turns into a villain when he gets corrupted in TAG1, even so Hayden it's very egocentric and had double intentions disguised as a Jesus complex, he wanted immortality at all coast, but failed 2 times and the slayer did the right stuff by destroying the father sphere and killing Davoth
Samuel should be a hybrid between the human Hayden and Samur. Samuel should be a separate person who linked in a collective conscious with Samur Maykr.
My headcanon is that Hayden lost his memories and did all what he did out of instinct, but began to recover his past memories after his robotic body was destroyed, which explains his change on personality as he himself realized he was not a human.
I'm so glad someone said it even if it took me way too long to discover it. I genuinely enjoyed Sam in the 2016, I find a lot of his lines buzzing around in my head periodically. I HATE how his character was assassinated in Eternal. Among it just being a terrible overdesigned game that still somehow managed to be a broken mess, the story also found a way to be so convoluted that it's sharing a beer with Kingdom Hearts. It's a shame we never got a respectful sequel to the game in 2016.
It would have worked if they said in Eternal that his human body did in fact have cancer even though his true form is an angel so he had to swap to the robot one
I think Samuel hating what he was obsessed with before was because he failed to stop hell on earth and ended up dying. When they recovered his body, they couldn't repair him much because they're limited in technology. When he was reconnected to the Slayer ship, which is alien technology. Everything he knew in his past life was restored.
9:35 I actually liked that part, Slayer doesn't hold a grudge, he doesn't care about what happened between them, he just cares about killing more demons and Hayden knows that he doesn't give a shit so he just tells him what he wants to know, no sorry, no nothing and that just gave me straight DOOM vibes - you aren't here to make history, you are here to kill demons.
"You aren't here to make history". You say this about the Doom Slayer character that was written to be a literal demigod that prophecies foretold that is meant to save the entire multiverse. Right-o.
Even though he's the game director, Hugo Martin needs to step away from the writing duties and let someone else handle that. The guy knows how to craft exciting and addicting gameplay, but his writing skills are absolute trash and on par with the writing of a child.
you can tell with how suddenly he had a holier than thou attitude in eternal that they remade his personality so they could unveil his new angelic origins
As a fellow Hayden, it hurt to see Samuel be massacred so heavily, also if we're gonna say Doom Eternal's story is bad then we gotta be fair and go back to say Doom 2016's story is bad too because of how forgettable it was.
I think you've missed the point of Samuel's character. Samuel's protests over the destruction of argent energy not out of greed, but necessity; as he states, the world was falling apart without the resources Argent provided and knew that Doomguy's actions would cause great suffering. Samuel was callous, yes, but there a method to his madness. Unlike the board, which was greedy, and Olivia who was power-hungry, Samuel believed in the cause of the UAC; using argent energy to enrich and advance human life. Despite Samuel's rancor from the destruction of the facility, Samuel is nonetheless polite and incredibly helpful, even sounding hyped when Doomguy returned from hell. Samuel should have stayed human (relatively speaking), because it would have given the humans of Eternal's world a face and a voice; we only see characters from Doomguy's world talking and moving the plot forward. Samuel, like he said, is not the villain of the story; the Demons are. The Ancient Gods (and in extension, Eternal) damaged his character by revealing him to be the Seraphim, Samur.
Back when Eternal was yet to release, I expected Hayden to be part of some prophecy, as someone who'll bring demonic invasion to Earth. Because you know, the road to hell is paved with good intentions. And of course his name sounding similar to (Sa)(tan), heh. Also, where the hell is Wretch? The one who supposedly made the armor for Slayer. Again, seeing the suit being different from 2016, I expected you'd meet the guy so he'd perform the upgrade.
The entire story of Eternal is so fucked and full of holes, not only Hayden's. I liked some parts, but some parts i just cant stand, dont even get me started on the whole Dark Lord/Father stuff from the DLC.
THANK YOU, he was MORE, more interesting as a human with a savior complex butting heads with Doomguy. It just was the best stuff done in a Doom game in terms of characterization. Very, very angry that they made a bunch of convoluted choices for the sake of a twist. Thanks for this video. i just hate what they did.
I think Doom Eternal's whole story is dumb and I tend to ignore it. Doom 2016 had a balance of that fantasy element of the Slayer's past while also grounding it in the futuristic scifi setting.
I'm convinced that Doom: Eternal's Samuel Haiden (and Doom Slayer by associations) is a separate character from Samuel from Doom 2016. That's my headcannon.
I also think they did The Father and Davoth extremely dirty. The concepts are cool, but the fact that they were wasted on TAG really irks me. Wasted potential and everything should have been fleshed out more.
It bothers me that in doom eternal they went too far. They took something that worked, and threw out everything but the combat system, and turned the game into a goofy saturday morning cartoon Doom 2016 had bite, it was a bit edgy, and the industrial aesthetic suited it perfectly, but that was thrown out in favour of pretty sights to rip and tear to A saturday morning cartoon has no place for biting social commentary, or any serious form of story telling, and ok, they focused on the gameplay first and foremost and things had to take a backseat. Thats fine, there's nothing wrong with arcady, but doom eternal is a bit too silly, they also made the archvile lame, like, HOWTF DO YOU TAKE THE MOST UNIQUE ENEMY IN THE ROSTER, and make it lame?! Im still seriously insulted by that. And then the two dlc's took things even further and they suck. This sucks. All they had to do was take doom 2016, give it a bit more gameplay depth, keep the feeling of the game the same with more content and a few more guns or mechanics, but its too over the top that it loops back around to beiing silly, and the DLC's are just too over the top compared to something that was already too over the topic. Eternal just hit the mark for most people, and the DLC's went past it. This just goes to show that people mind too over the top, and i just consider eternal more over the top than most. Clearly the breaking point for most people is somewhere between eternal and the DLC's. Edit: Also, retcons on top of retcons. They arent cool, and i dont care who does them, activision or ID, but retcons are BS and i hate them.
I'm still annoyed that Doom Eternal didn't bother to address anything that occurred between Doom 2016 and Eternal. I love the gameplay, sound design, and artistic design of Doom Eternal. But everything else about the game is an absolute mess.
12:00 He probably doesn't want it to be around not because he hates argent but because it could be a competitor. He seemed like he wanted to be the sole creator of argent so he would get more benefits. Not only that, but he does have an issue with the invasion of Earth, and by destroying the maykr argent factory, it cripples the invasion.
I spite so much eternal's "show don't tell" thing. Doom 2016 felt like both Slayer and player had no idea where they were but knew only one thing - rip and tear, with perhaps memories of past massacres (old doom games and Slayer's backstory though it was from Eternal too). Eternal is, like Slayer had whole journey between two games, got whole-ass lobby space shuttle, goes on quests we know nothing about until we complete them, this somewhat connection between player and character completely gone, you just here to shoot and he's here to save mankind, not "you"
I disagree that Eternal's approach is a problem, because the Slayer is still you in one very key way: motivation. The Slayer saw what was going wrong on Mars, and goes to Earth to kill more demons. You played through Doom 4 on Mars, and now you want to go to Earth to kill more demons. That connection is still there. We don't need any more of Doom 4's exposition because we already saw the exposition in the last game. Now it's time to move on to the even more bombastic part
First, willing to do thousands of sacrifice to save billions is moral for some ppl. So Hayden (2016 and the beginning of Eternal) is not a contradiction at all. If tomorrow oil would disappear from earth, we would loose billion from starvation. That's just how energy is important in our world. In 2150 it's even worst apparently... Second, the fact that Hayden said now we can't let argent energy be create again is not a contradiction... The last time they create argent energy was from argent dnur civilian and fallen soldier. Apparently they was still energy stocked and it could look like it was unlimited. I'm not saying that I love that continuity, I'm just saying that it still worked... The rest, about the angel hayden, yes i more or less agree.
dude, have you played the Developmental tragedy that is Doom1-2? They were amazing, even with their flaws. Stop crying over dollar bills that weren't printed the morning you got them...
My take on Samuel's motivation in 2016 was that he was ridden by ambition and self-righteousness, seeing himself as the humanity's savior, looking for the greater good, no matter the value of the individual life, the goal being more important than the mediums. I think he has the surviving and flourishing of humanity on his mind, but not as an act of good faith, but an act of ego, which explains why he underestimates the demon invasion in 2016, while at the same time looking to solve the energy crisis (again the goal justify the medium), and the why in Eternal he lead the defense for humanity, meaning that this way his motivations doesn't conflict between Eternal and 2016. P.D: as far as I remember neither in 2016 or Eternal is mentioned that his motivation is money.
Samuel being the guy that gave doom guy the powers of the dark lord, isn't something i expected, i thought it was cool at first but i can also see how that not being the case could have meant for something else.
Hayden isn’t a full on villain he’s a lot like Mr house he wants to help humanity (by using argent to supply us infinite energy) but just doesn’t care about individuals aka the ends justify the means
As much as I morn the loss of Hay Hays original potential, I don't really hate where he went either. I think what they did with him is cool, tho I have to agree that the original concepts was also equally cool, if not even better as a storytelling concept. But since we are talking about DOOM, I don't care all too much about it in the end, I'm only here to kill anything and everything that's in front of me, so using words like "they ruined him" seems silly in my opinion, since the characters were never meant to be the focus resulting in them obviously not being focused on all to much. But all that is just my own opinion and everyone can think what they want about the game or the character.
Literally just needed a voice line from him apologising for the end of Doom 2016 or something and it’d be fine in the base game All The seraphim shite tho is so far up its own ass i have no idea where to begin
I thought Samuel would be the wretch or the betrayer which would have made way more sense with his character, the whole doom eternal story was wack in comparison to how gritty 2016 was
I mean the whole reason for his obsession with argent energy is because it keeps earth running along with some capitalism to fill the corporations pockets, it’s suppose to be ironic that he disregards human life for the soul purpose of argent energy to save earth, then in eternal it’s the same irony again and like in doom 2016 it slapped him in his shiny robot face
As good as Eternal is, its story is pretty awful, which wouldn't be a problen if it wasn't given so much focus, and Sam/VEGA probably suffered the most.
DOOM Eternal fue un muy buen juego, pero tambien fue un juego que desperdicio demasiados recursos, como este mismo sobre Samuel Hayden, o los superdemonios, el Marauder, el Arch-vile, el Tyrant, pudieron haber sido jefes grandiosos, sobretodo el Marauder, tenia todo para ser un increible jefe, pero su pelea es corta, y como todos los superdemonios, solo lo reciclan para otras peleas.
So the reason the story elements work the way they do is because they focused on making the best game they could and story came after, they still created one of the best lore sets for everything though
I wonder if making Samuel an angel was to try and explain why Vega was the father and how Samuel had ended up with him, since it feels like they retconned his lore in 2016. Now to be fair a character's lore can change as more stuff is revealed about them. But they kinder didn't do that with hayden; originally he was a guy that cheated death and now he's actually the seraphim? Did he get turned into a human then discovered he was dying and made the robot, or did the human hayden never actually exist and it was always the robot, but he tricked everyone into thinking he had a human life before becoming the robot? It's stuff like that that could have helped his lore flow better from 2016 into Eternal. It's little details like that in my opinion that could have helped the whole "he's really an angel" thing feel a lot less like a tact on story decision. With Vega actually being the father maybe they thought "oh we need to explain how Samuel got him but how would a human get his hands on an alien god? Fuck it, let's make Samuel an alien too." But yeah loved how conniving he was in the first game, he really felt like he had his own goals. Then in Eternal he was a text to speech reader with a cool voice. The best parts we get of him in Eternal is when he's telling the slayer he can't shoot mars and that a canon is a weapon, not a teleporter. It was just a small glimpse at the character he used to be, futilely trying to tell the slayer what to do and failing miserably. I hope in future iterations of DOOM we see him again, I honestly see him as key part of the franchise now. Kinder like how many of the different demons will always make a return for different games I hope he is a character that will make many returns in the franchise in the future. (Though maybe with better writing.)
Making everything connect back to everything else only works in the Hero's Journey. "Luke I am your father" is full of gravitas and pathos of the highest order ... "DOOM GUY, I am the Seraphim!" ... ok, huh? Who cares. It's like they wanted instant-pathos-just-add-character-reveal and it doesn't work in that type of story.
I despise stories in which all the characters are revealed to be somehow connected for the sake of the plot. Like Final Fantasy 8, off the top of my head. "Oh, all of these completely unrelated characters who met at this military school all happen to have come from the same orphanage back when they were children? Okay. WHY?" It always feels so contrived, unrealistic, and lazy writing.
he has Literal Love Handles for hips, there was nothing left to ruin this is a joke but still HE HAS LITERAL LOVE HANDLES! WITH TACTICAL RUBBERIZED GRIPPING SURFACES!
Nah, I feel like the story is made uncompleted for the people to make their own view on it… If there is mystery there is exitement… Dooms lore does this well enough
The seriphim was a simp for the father so taking the fathers sphere and no longer having contact with him was bad but Samuel was still loyal even though he was a maykr. Samuel still believed in the father to a fault…disagreeing with the kahn maykr for the plan of argent with hell believing it was heresy to the fathers will (whom he simped for) So seeing the slayer as an opportunity (Idea influenced by the dark lord ironically) he took the chance to rid the current regime of maykrs. After messing with the plans of the maykrs by giving strength to the slayer the maykrs saw it as heresy (for there are two factions of the maykrs)
you see a picture of Hayden's human form in 2016, I feel like if they wanted to bring him back as a character separate from the seraphim they probably could if they wanted to.
And another really bad thing about the last part you said about that it was explained why he was ok to yeet Vega who's a Father just fine (own ambitious and believing that he'll be better leader than him or Davoth) but it was explained on s fucking stream by Hugo after the comment suggesting this question
Samuel isn’t the reason the demons got to earth. It was the Maykrs that decided it was humanities time to give penance so they opened to gates of hell to earth, in exchange they got to syphon the argent energy from the souls of the damned. Anyways, I never saw Hayden as a villain in Doom 2016, he wasn’t a good guy, but he wasn’t evil to me. Just had a heavy lack of foresight with Olivia Pierce. Maybe that’s where the disconnection for you is coming from?
Yeah, I was disappointed when I encountered Hayden. I wanted Doomguy to be the one to bring him proper justice, but next time you meet him he's already wrecked. Although honestly I think they still did him more justice than Ashley in REmake 4. Everyone seems to love the new Ashley, but I think she's just really awful. They completely changed her and also turned her into a boring do good girl. The secret agent talk scene on the elevator was just so bad, it's the kind of thing a 12 year old girl would say. Not a mature 20 year old student who knows very well that she can't ever be a secret agent because she's the f***ing president's daughter and would be recognized everywhere. And that's just 1 of the many issues I have with the new Ashley.
He was just a cool synth boi who wanted the best for humans, sure he was a bit untrustworthy, but he was a cool beeper..... and than in doom eternal he became a litteral robo nugget 😏
Honestly Hayden being human at first and becoming a robot to cheat death is infinitely more cool to me then him being a generic angel. Like him and the seraphim should of been completely separate.
I think it couldve worked but that fact they reconned his original origins and developed this new idea, but didnt go deeper with it.. kinda ruined it
I guess you could find a way to connect these ideas by seraphim hacking Hayden robo body or something xD@@Oronoto
@@EnhancedNightmareI believe it was said somewhere that he placed his soul into braindead human body. And when it developed Cancer he went with the robo body
@@RepublicTrooper125 Interesting. Did not hear that before but would make sense.
Yeah, would've been cooler if they just did something like... he had a near-death experience and his mechanical frame was modeled after the seeraphim... of which there are several, as Part Two showed us... which makes him even less special now.
I reject Samuel Hayden as being some trash angel. I prefer him as a badass human that fucked the status quo.
And I'm a misanthropist.
Y know it's really misanthrope to pretend being a saviour to mankind eyes but having other interests and basically being a master of puppets with divine origin and being so narcissistic, than sounds very misanthrope lol
I genuinely dont think hayden wants to make money
I mean he is basically the most powerfull person on the entire solar system and the CEO of the biggest company to have ever existed yet his actions never screamed "i put profit first"
Like he says in the end of 2016 "i have no choice without argent it WILL be worse"
I think he genuinely wants to save humanity from itself even if his vision for how to do it is miss guided
Yeah he was never truly a villain this video argues for a point that never existed
He was trying to find a way to continue Argent with out the invasion from Hell
None of yall understand his character which is funny
@@peabrain6872 tell me what is his character in 2016 before the retcons eternal did to him
@@valletas no retcons happened dude, you just dont understand 😂😂
Everytime someone says the story in Eternal doesn't matter, all I can think about is the unskippable dialogue Samuel has just talking about fun facts about Hell for TWO MISSIONS
The longer the Icon of Sin remains on earth, the stronger it will become.
@@theimperviousfirecracker7934sorry, could you say that again?
@@sumtinqueso5790 the stronger the Icon of Sin becomes on earth, the longer it will remain.
@@theimperviousfirecracker7934 the longer the sin of icon becomes on earth, the stronger he will remain
@@sumtinqueso5790 The stronger the earth remains on the Icon Of Sin, the become it will longer.
I really hate how sam was treated in eternal he is literally just living wikipedia and thats it, also i've noticed that they straight up changed his lore, in the codex of 2016 its says he was some guy who had cancer and put his brain in a robot suit to live on or something i forgot, now hes big angel man, wish they kept samual as samual and the seraphim as the seraphim
They didnt change it. He was always the Seraphim but in a cloned human body. That then got cancer and turned into a 3 meter tall robot. He was supposed to guide humanity through their discovery of Argent Energy, cuz the father told him to.
@@tmantman993 correct, and the reason he allowed all of that to happen was because his human body (and by extension the piece of his brain that runs the cybernetic body) is susceptible to demonic corruption
They aint change shit you just lore inept
There were plenty of hints he is the seraphim in 2016.
@@passingRakz954I know right
I remember being VERY exited to see Hayden in Eternal. Is he happy VEGA survived? Is he regretful that his Argent search led to Earth’s invasion?
But we get no emotion or arc at all. He’s just VEGA 2.
Which is funny, because VEGA is all over doom eternal. So we end up not only with 2 VEGAs, but 2 at the same time.
Hayden didn’t cause the invasion of Earth. The Makrs opened the portal.
I know this video is kinda old, but you misunderstood many things, Hayden/Samur didn't provoke Hell's invasion on earth and if he was extracting energy from Mars wasn't because he wanted more money, he isn't even the owner of the whole UAC, he did it because he knew that the earth needs the energy for their survival, and it was Olivia the one who was willing to sacrifice all the UAC personnel for her own gain causing the events of 2016 and she would have been successful if he hasn't spent so much time preparing for this scenario. He might not have humanity's best interest in mind since it was all part of a bigger conspiracy, but ultimately, I can't see his course of action as morally wrong or unjustified giving the context.
No dude, he still was ok on using argent energy on Doom 2016, which means he doesn't care about the "tortured souls in hell" or whatever. So he was not as bad as Olivia but he his morale is still questionable at best. Btw, Doom Eternal lore is just a mess. All they did was retcon the entire story.
@@rodrigoalves-cg6xv I don't think that's a fair criticism, Argent Energy was produced with and without Earth extracting from the Argent Fracture.
Samuel Hayden was tasked by the father to guide humanity in the discovery of Argent Energy and protect them from the hell invasion because no one was capable of defeating hell.
Earth was enduring a devastating energy crisis, as morally incorrect as it is to use the souls, they weren't the ones killing innocents to produce it, it was the demons.
Even without Hayden, the UAC will go their way to extract and experiment with Argent, Samuel being there was the best outcome, specially considering that without him the Slayer would still be in the Sarcophagus, because the UAC would be corrupted or will not have interest in a random tombstone.
@@rodrigoalves-cg6xv not everything in the story is a mess. Plus it's not really that complex. Also a lot of it is left up to interpretation. So truthfully it's not a big deal. But it can be confusing if your not actually sorting through the lore.
@@dylanshaw5700people give the story too much shit but honestly I think people don’t pay attention to it and actually read the lore in-depth so most just are confused or dumb tbh sure some is left to interpretation tho it is easy to find what it means if you read, and there’s a few plot holes yet it isn’t a mess, I am just sick of idiots slandering a great game with good story and world building tbh
I will literally fight anyone and beat their ass in a verbal argument or a text argument cuz most people are morons to me.
@@LeaderOfTheLostSouls"most people are morons to me"🤓🤓🤓🤓🤓
Samuel tries to save humanity from economic collapse and doesn't see demons as a threat. One can't kill porverty and hunger.
Doomguy tries to save humanity from demons and doesn't see energy crisis as a threat. One can live in poverty and hunger
The way I see it is: The Slayer doesn't see eye to eye with Samuel's vision because his plan involves Hell. Argent Energy being beneficial or not to humanity isn't the point; it being tied to Hell is more than enough reason for the Slayer to completely disagree with Samuel Hayden's plans, no matter how altruistic they may seem. Furthermore, Argent Energy requires mortal souls and the Wraith's essence (Sentinel Energy) to be created. So I'm theorizing that during his time with the Sentinels he would've found out about the twisted process behind it and ultimately placed his allegiance with the Night Sentinels during the Civil War. But we'll see how this actually played out in the upcoming Dark Ages game.
Yeeeeah Eternal ruined a lot...
He was so mysterious in DOOM 2016 and now he is sus
Great video
remember
It does suck that they ruined Hayden. my favorite character.
really 2016 does everything well and eternal nails perfectly the music gameplay but eternal story feels so rushed
also great video was worth the wait for sure
I don't even think Eternal gets the gameplay right. There's a few things it innovates well on, like the dash. But then they nerfed melee only to replace it with that that weird mechanic. Glory kills got less brutal with the inclusion of the arm blade. The platforming puzzles added nothing meaningful to the game (bet everyone forgot those were in the game). And the sandbox got notably more one note, with some weapons basically becoming objectively the best weapons to use against certain enemies (i.e. why would you ever not use a shotgun grenade on a cacodemon?)
@@PANCAKEMINEZZ using the shotgun to kill a cacodemon is like the 10th most efficient way to kill it. How much have you actually played eternal? it has one of the most complex combat loops ever created. Bloodpunch is much more well incorporated than a generic melee, you can use it to do a bunch of damage to doom hunter and cyber mancubus and any other demon and you can also use it to kill a bunch of fodder and get shield or health. Also when you get upgrades you can charge it with shield and health if you avoid taking damage and you can use it way more often. It is very good at faltering as well, it completely stops any demon hit by it.
This is just one tool In DOOM slayers arsenal I can write even more about, every tool is like this, the combat loop is so deep it took me years to perfect my playstyle to what it is now. DOOM 2016s gameplay feels way more experimental, its a bridge between wolfenstein and DOOM Eternal.
I liked 2016’s gameplay before I played eternal, but now eternal’s nosecandy gameplay spoiled me and I can no longer appreciate 2016’s gameplay, only its superior story and atmosphere
@@15braincellsremaining i love both personally,but fair i suppose
Im currently studying character and story creation and there is always this one mistake i dont want to ignore.
After creating a good character and you are deciding to give him/her more developement in the next story and when you figure out one you think its good, later over time you start to think it’s not actually that great and fitting for the character even if it has a thing that you find interesting.
Thats exacly what happened to Samuel Hayden. Too bad they did not double think.
I was so bummed out that literally nothing in 2016 played into Samuel's boss battle. Not even a simple throw-away line like "You've had this coming for a long time now." or... SOMETHING! They're fighting to the death and their history is a complete non-factor! AUGH!!!
I kind of feel the same but I'm not the villain in this story.
I mean to be fair you did what you did because you had no choice
DOOM, Vega, This entire series. You see, I've watched you play, come to understand your intention.
Eternal should have ended with the crucible absorbing the dead icon of sin's power and then Hayden steals it and you fight him as the final boss. He basically has no free will in Eternal and only follows the Slayer's orders. It would've been a great twist ending for Hayden to have just been pretending he couldn't act during most of the story. Also Hayden is not an angel and it was a horrible retcon.
I’m not sure what his motive would be to try and fight the slayer tho. Hayden provided the world infinite energy. He wasn’t evil In 2016, he just had a horrible lack of foresight when it came to Olivia’s research.
i desperately need an alternate timeline where Doom Eternal was closer to 2016's aesthetic and lore ( i have 400 hours in doom eternal )
Alternate timeline where Doom Slayer is the Betrayer too, hence why he hates demons so much.
@@MarioTheLiopleurodon he hates then for daisy
Similar mindset on my end. I absolutely LOVE the gameplay of Doom Eternal (I have over 600 hours of playtime on Steam), but the lore/story in Eternal is pure dogshit. Hugo Martin knows how to develop addicting gameplay, but he needs to step away from the writing duties. His writing is like that of a child.
@@DeadPixel1105 Not to mention he busted prematurely. Dude got so excited about his new lore that he spoiled the game months before release.
i have a feeling we will get this in Doom: Dark Ages
I kinda headcanon that 2016 hayden was replaced at some point by the consciousness of their captive angel in the UAC atlantica. The voice was similar enough for the slayer and even vega to buy it, but ultimately, Samuel himself is just gone. replaced. and it'd be easier to do so with him especially, since dude's 98% robot. So dude magically knowing about things he shouldn't, having views and stances completely contradictory to what he had in 2016, it's all because that body hasn't been inhabited by Hayden for a very long time, since Samur needed a way to free himself, and saw samuel as the perfect trojan horse.
In 2016 he was a man that was trying to give the cleanest and most powerful form of energy to humanity to erase poverty. He wanted it "for the good of humanity" so that we wouldn't have an energy/resource crisis. He was willing to accept casualties in the pursuit of energy because he thought that providing for mankind was more important than losses occurred during production.
Then in Eternal he says *one* good line "You can't just blow a hole in the surface of Mars!" and the rest is Doom wiki.
Him being the Seraphim isn't even a good twist, and the hype around the game and rampant Doom theory vids on TH-cam basically seeded the idea in most fans' heads anyway - so a lot of us already expected it to happen. Now if he based his robot frame on the Seraphim, or injected himself with Seraphim DNA like some kind of Bioshock/Resident Evil attempt to upgrade himself, that would've been better - and maybe the Seraphim takes over afterwards. Maybe he could've been involved with the Dark Lords of hell or something and slowly become possessed, leading to him going crazy in Eternal and later in the TAG 1 & TAG 2 DLC campaigns.
I was confused with Eternals dlc, 2016 says he was a human who has brain cancer who had his brain put in a robot but then he's an alien
OK here's a simple version: was alien, put brain in human to find out stuff, human brain WEAK so puts bran into robot.
@@matthewblaikie7903he turned from an alien/angel thing to a human cuz he couldn't interact with hell stuff with his alien/angel body, so he went alien/angel=human=robot and as robot he start working with hell stuff and not get corrupted until TAG 2
@@matthewblaikie7903
They definitely didnt imagine that even when they wrote 2016 lol
Hahaha this video sums up my issues with the DOOM Fortress, like iD thought i would actually be more interested in reading about how he got the Fortress then actually liberating the Fortress for myself. DOOM Eternals story would be so much better if it just picked up where 2016 left off and the first 3rd was getting the Fortress and off Mars, the second 3rd was fighting Hell on Earth and last 3rd was in Hell getting trhe Sword to take down the Icon of Sin. Its simpler, more straight forward and you don't lose a single heavy metal moment other then really weird and out of place fantasy settings that feel like they are from a totally different franchise.
I came up with a fix to Samuel/Samur years ago.
Samuel discovered the tomb containing Samur, and The Father's consciousness.
It's established by The Father's story and existence that you can separate a being into 3 parts, their body, their soul, and their mind. (Oh my god why is so much of Doom lore identical to Kingdom Hearts???)
Samuel was possessed by Samur's mind when he came into contact with his body, becoming a host for him to enact his will through.
Samur gradually begins overtaking Samuel, who isn't aware of his presence in his mind, as he rises through the ranks in the UAC, Samur's knowledge and intellect giving them a distinct advantage.
Samuel's human brain cannot fully contain Samur's mind, thus resulting in his brain cancer.
Samur then influences Samuel to come up with the idea to create a synthetic body, suspiciously similar in design to Samur's original Maykr body.
Over the course their time in this new body, Samur takes over even more of Samuel's personality, making him perceive thoughts that Samur came up with as his own.
In the time between 2016 and Eternal, Samur takes over completely, explaining the complete shift in his demeanor and way of speaking when you meet with him again.
Instead of retrieving the "Seraphim's Key" in UAC Atlantica, you retrieve Samur's Soul Sphere.
Once he has both his soul and body back, he abandons his living human disguise completely.
This would then open up the opportunity for Samuel himself to return in the future, now separated from Samur, who probably didn't expect his consciousness to have survived throughout the whole ordeal.
Samuel wouldn't be too pleased about having his life literally stolen, and not having any achievements to his name that were actually his own, leading to him likely allying with The Slayer for the sake of getting revenge, and potentially making something with his life on his own terms, with his own skills, with his own intellect.
Self control and agency over your own existence, no longer being a puppet for someone else's machinations, this would be the throughline that would tie Samuel Hayden and the Doom Slayer together.
i aint reading all of that but good idea
That's actually pretty good. You're a far better writer than Hugo Martin, that's for sure.
it's peak
When I was on the last bit of Eternal I fully expected Samuel to hijack my ship for his own nefarious purposes because he had been set up as so untrustworthy. But nope, he's chill with just being VEGA 2.0
To me Hayden is someone who’s goals align with the Doom Slayer but uses simpler methods when it suits him regardless of consequences that don’t affect him directly. When he has the argent spewing crucible on earth he will say what he really thinks about the process that makes it. When he spews out exposition left and right and then says that taking the crucible blade will awaken the titan it means “take the damn sword and let the thing do what it wants” since he gives no alternatives. He only brings back the Slayer in 2016 when things have get out of hand.
Hayden to me only has issues with the Slayer because of their difference in methods. I wish they brought him back in the second dlc to help you after seeing an enlightened Vega agreeing with your methods.
i feel like more was lost than was gained in the idea of making hayden the seraphim
He already was, only one who could use argent because hes a member of the species that made it dude
They should have just made him Satan acting as a false savior during humanity's energy crisis. He was ultimately the reason demons wrecked humanity.
Samuel Hayden
S. Hayden
Satan
Simple explanation of Hayden's skipped redemption arc:
Hayden isn't actually doing this out of the good of his own heart. He is just attempting to appeal to those perceiving him as good.
Hugo confirmed he's actually not a bad guy, but the guy with a really big ego. He actually believed he's better than both Father and Davoth in terms of the management and whatnot but failed miserably and didn't accept it
Yeah could be. The guy could use a PR boost after he basically caused the invasion.
Hayden it's kinda in a middle point where he is an antagonist but not really a villain, he turns into a villain when he gets corrupted in TAG1, even so Hayden it's very egocentric and had double intentions disguised as a Jesus complex, he wanted immortality at all coast, but failed 2 times and the slayer did the right stuff by destroying the father sphere and killing Davoth
Samuel should be a hybrid between the human Hayden and Samur. Samuel should be a separate person who linked in a collective conscious with Samur Maykr.
My headcanon is that Hayden lost his memories and did all what he did out of instinct, but began to recover his past memories after his robotic body was destroyed, which explains his change on personality as he himself realized he was not a human.
I'm so glad someone said it even if it took me way too long to discover it. I genuinely enjoyed Sam in the 2016, I find a lot of his lines buzzing around in my head periodically. I HATE how his character was assassinated in Eternal. Among it just being a terrible overdesigned game that still somehow managed to be a broken mess, the story also found a way to be so convoluted that it's sharing a beer with Kingdom Hearts. It's a shame we never got a respectful sequel to the game in 2016.
Painfully underrated channel
Dude i love this video. Thank you for actually proving some compelling points, and keep posting, cause you'll go far, I can tell.
It would have worked if they said in Eternal that his human body did in fact have cancer even though his true form is an angel so he had to swap to the robot one
I think Samuel hating what he was obsessed with before was because he failed to stop hell on earth and ended up dying. When they recovered his body, they couldn't repair him much because they're limited in technology. When he was reconnected to the Slayer ship, which is alien technology. Everything he knew in his past life was restored.
9:35 I actually liked that part, Slayer doesn't hold a grudge, he doesn't care about what happened between them, he just cares about killing more demons and Hayden knows that he doesn't give a shit so he just tells him what he wants to know, no sorry, no nothing and that just gave me straight DOOM vibes - you aren't here to make history, you are here to kill demons.
Which is uncharacteristic of him, doom slayer definitely holds grudges
@@HPalternetive true. The entire reason why he’s fighting the demons right now is because they killed his bunny
"You aren't here to make history". You say this about the Doom Slayer character that was written to be a literal demigod that prophecies foretold that is meant to save the entire multiverse. Right-o.
Oh my god, finally someone who isn’t just “you’re stupid for caring about the story”
About fucking time
Even though he's the game director, Hugo Martin needs to step away from the writing duties and let someone else handle that. The guy knows how to craft exciting and addicting gameplay, but his writing skills are absolute trash and on par with the writing of a child.
you can tell with how suddenly he had a holier than thou attitude in eternal that they remade his personality so they could unveil his new angelic origins
im obsessed with doom lore i love the story
You REALLY like massive unrecognisable plates of spaghetti?
@@matthewblaikie7903 Yes
As a fellow Hayden, it hurt to see Samuel be massacred so heavily, also if we're gonna say Doom Eternal's story is bad then we gotta be fair and go back to say Doom 2016's story is bad too because of how forgettable it was.
Samuel is my favorite character and i LOVED this video, great job!! Definitely deserves more views.
I loved him. I was disappointed with what eternal did.
BuT yOu CaNt JuSt ShOoT a HoLe InTo ThE sUrFaCe Of MaRs
I think you've missed the point of Samuel's character.
Samuel's protests over the destruction of argent energy not out of greed, but necessity; as he states, the world was falling apart without the resources Argent provided and knew that Doomguy's actions would cause great suffering.
Samuel was callous, yes, but there a method to his madness. Unlike the board, which was greedy, and Olivia who was power-hungry, Samuel believed in the cause of the UAC; using argent energy to enrich and advance human life.
Despite Samuel's rancor from the destruction of the facility, Samuel is nonetheless polite and incredibly helpful, even sounding hyped when Doomguy returned from hell.
Samuel should have stayed human (relatively speaking), because it would have given the humans of Eternal's world a face and a voice; we only see characters from Doomguy's world talking and moving the plot forward.
Samuel, like he said, is not the villain of the story; the Demons are. The Ancient Gods (and in extension, Eternal) damaged his character by revealing him to be the Seraphim, Samur.
Back when Eternal was yet to release, I expected Hayden to be part of some prophecy, as someone who'll bring demonic invasion to Earth. Because you know, the road to hell is paved with good intentions. And of course his name sounding similar to (Sa)(tan), heh.
Also, where the hell is Wretch? The one who supposedly made the armor for Slayer. Again, seeing the suit being different from 2016, I expected you'd meet the guy so he'd perform the upgrade.
The entire story of Eternal is so fucked and full of holes, not only Hayden's. I liked some parts, but some parts i just cant stand, dont even get me started on the whole Dark Lord/Father stuff from the DLC.
THANK YOU, he was MORE, more interesting as a human with a savior complex butting heads with Doomguy. It just was the best stuff done in a Doom game in terms of characterization. Very, very angry that they made a bunch of convoluted choices for the sake of a twist. Thanks for this video. i just hate what they did.
I think Doom Eternal's whole story is dumb and I tend to ignore it. Doom 2016 had a balance of that fantasy element of the Slayer's past while also grounding it in the futuristic scifi setting.
I'm convinced that Doom: Eternal's Samuel Haiden (and Doom Slayer by associations) is a separate character from Samuel from Doom 2016.
That's my headcannon.
I also think they did The Father and Davoth extremely dirty. The concepts are cool, but the fact that they were wasted on TAG really irks me. Wasted potential and everything should have been fleshed out more.
It bothers me that in doom eternal they went too far. They took something that worked, and threw out everything but the combat system, and turned the game into a goofy saturday morning cartoon
Doom 2016 had bite, it was a bit edgy, and the industrial aesthetic suited it perfectly, but that was thrown out in favour of pretty sights to rip and tear to
A saturday morning cartoon has no place for biting social commentary, or any serious form of story telling, and ok, they focused on the gameplay first and foremost and things had to take a backseat. Thats fine, there's nothing wrong with arcady, but doom eternal is a bit too silly, they also made the archvile lame, like, HOWTF DO YOU TAKE THE MOST UNIQUE ENEMY IN THE ROSTER, and make it lame?! Im still seriously insulted by that.
And then the two dlc's took things even further and they suck.
This sucks. All they had to do was take doom 2016, give it a bit more gameplay depth, keep the feeling of the game the same with more content and a few more guns or mechanics, but its too over the top that it loops back around to beiing silly, and the DLC's are just too over the top compared to something that was already too over the topic. Eternal just hit the mark for most people, and the DLC's went past it. This just goes to show that people mind too over the top, and i just consider eternal more over the top than most. Clearly the breaking point for most people is somewhere between eternal and the DLC's.
Edit: Also, retcons on top of retcons. They arent cool, and i dont care who does them, activision or ID, but retcons are BS and i hate them.
See, Doom Eternal is the third game in a trilogy, all this stuff was covered in the second game (which never existed).
I'm still annoyed that Doom Eternal didn't bother to address anything that occurred between Doom 2016 and Eternal. I love the gameplay, sound design, and artistic design of Doom Eternal. But everything else about the game is an absolute mess.
12:00 He probably doesn't want it to be around not because he hates argent but because it could be a competitor. He seemed like he wanted to be the sole creator of argent so he would get more benefits. Not only that, but he does have an issue with the invasion of Earth, and by destroying the maykr argent factory, it cripples the invasion.
I spite so much eternal's "show don't tell" thing.
Doom 2016 felt like both Slayer and player had no idea where they were but knew only one thing - rip and tear, with perhaps memories of past massacres (old doom games and Slayer's backstory though it was from Eternal too).
Eternal is, like Slayer had whole journey between two games, got whole-ass lobby space shuttle, goes on quests we know nothing about until we complete them, this somewhat connection between player and character completely gone, you just here to shoot and he's here to save mankind, not "you"
I disagree that Eternal's approach is a problem, because the Slayer is still you in one very key way: motivation.
The Slayer saw what was going wrong on Mars, and goes to Earth to kill more demons. You played through Doom 4 on Mars, and now you want to go to Earth to kill more demons.
That connection is still there. We don't need any more of Doom 4's exposition because we already saw the exposition in the last game. Now it's time to move on to the even more bombastic part
It's a power fantasy for the player like do you have media iliteracy to feel it's not "you"?
doom eternal ruined every excitement the first one built up...
For me it felt like a deep character piece in 2016, and a fantasy/sci fi plot written by a 10 year old in Eternal.
Doom Eternal ruined many things, but fucked the lore even worse. Only the gameplay mechanics are much better.
"Hell invading mars" puts California on mars
"ass and titties. ass ass and titties." best samuel's line
Samuel Haden my favorite Detroit Become Human character
Eternal is great for many things, but when it came to Samuel he was treated like a play thing.
First, willing to do thousands of sacrifice to save billions is moral for some ppl. So Hayden (2016 and the beginning of Eternal) is not a contradiction at all. If tomorrow oil would disappear from earth, we would loose billion from starvation. That's just how energy is important in our world. In 2150 it's even worst apparently...
Second, the fact that Hayden said now we can't let argent energy be create again is not a contradiction... The last time they create argent energy was from argent dnur civilian and fallen soldier. Apparently they was still energy stocked and it could look like it was unlimited. I'm not saying that I love that continuity, I'm just saying that it still worked...
The rest, about the angel hayden, yes i more or less agree.
Nice, a fellow Doom and Transformers fan. They should do a crossover lol
dude, have you played the Developmental tragedy that is Doom1-2? They were amazing, even with their flaws. Stop crying over dollar bills that weren't printed the morning you got them...
My take on Samuel's motivation in 2016 was that he was ridden by ambition and self-righteousness, seeing himself as the humanity's savior, looking for the greater good, no matter the value of the individual life, the goal being more important than the mediums.
I think he has the surviving and flourishing of humanity on his mind, but not as an act of good faith, but an act of ego, which explains why he underestimates the demon invasion in 2016, while at the same time looking to solve the energy crisis (again the goal justify the medium), and the why in Eternal he lead the defense for humanity, meaning that this way his motivations doesn't conflict between Eternal and 2016.
P.D: as far as I remember neither in 2016 or Eternal is mentioned that his motivation is money.
Samuel being the guy that gave doom guy the powers of the dark lord, isn't something i expected, i thought it was cool at first but i can also see how that not being the case could have meant for something else.
Hayden isn’t a full on villain he’s a lot like Mr house he wants to help humanity (by using argent to supply us infinite energy) but just doesn’t care about individuals aka the ends justify the means
As much as I morn the loss of Hay Hays original potential, I don't really hate where he went either. I think what they did with him is cool, tho I have to agree that the original concepts was also equally cool, if not even better as a storytelling concept. But since we are talking about DOOM, I don't care all too much about it in the end, I'm only here to kill anything and everything that's in front of me, so using words like "they ruined him" seems silly in my opinion, since the characters were never meant to be the focus resulting in them obviously not being focused on all to much. But all that is just my own opinion and everyone can think what they want about the game or the character.
Literally just needed a voice line from him apologising for the end of Doom 2016 or something and it’d be fine in the base game
All The seraphim shite tho is so far up its own ass i have no idea where to begin
I thought Samuel would be the wretch or the betrayer which would have made way more sense with his character, the whole doom eternal story was wack in comparison to how gritty 2016 was
I mean the whole reason for his obsession with argent energy is because it keeps earth running along with some capitalism to fill the corporations pockets, it’s suppose to be ironic that he disregards human life for the soul purpose of argent energy to save earth, then in eternal it’s the same irony again and like in doom 2016 it slapped him in his shiny robot face
I didn't view him as evil. I just saw him as a guy who had a point. Doesn't change much, though. Eternal still ruined it.
As good as Eternal is, its story is pretty awful, which wouldn't be a problen if it wasn't given so much focus, and Sam/VEGA probably suffered the most.
DOOM Eternal fue un muy buen juego, pero tambien fue un juego que desperdicio demasiados recursos, como este mismo sobre Samuel Hayden, o los superdemonios, el Marauder, el Arch-vile, el Tyrant, pudieron haber sido jefes grandiosos, sobretodo el Marauder, tenia todo para ser un increible jefe, pero su pelea es corta, y como todos los superdemonios, solo lo reciclan para otras peleas.
I prefer 2016 in general. Hbu?
it depends on my mood tbh, but i think im more attached to eternal
So the reason the story elements work the way they do is because they focused on making the best game they could and story came after, they still created one of the best lore sets for everything though
Doom 2016 had the better story, but eternal was better to play
Why replace such a unique character design with another generic doom monster???
3:55 As a person born in California, I can confirm California is hell
The bottom section at least, it’s pretty chill up north with the redwoods
yoo before i watch, i know this will be some interesting 18 minutes. from the title i couldnt agree more
rare venezuela mention
glory to venezuela
I wonder if making Samuel an angel was to try and explain why Vega was the father and how Samuel had ended up with him, since it feels like they retconned his lore in 2016. Now to be fair a character's lore can change as more stuff is revealed about them. But they kinder didn't do that with hayden; originally he was a guy that cheated death and now he's actually the seraphim?
Did he get turned into a human then discovered he was dying and made the robot, or did the human hayden never actually exist and it was always the robot, but he tricked everyone into thinking he had a human life before becoming the robot? It's stuff like that that could have helped his lore flow better from 2016 into Eternal. It's little details like that in my opinion that could have helped the whole "he's really an angel" thing feel a lot less like a tact on story decision. With Vega actually being the father maybe they thought "oh we need to explain how Samuel got him but how would a human get his hands on an alien god? Fuck it, let's make Samuel an alien too."
But yeah loved how conniving he was in the first game, he really felt like he had his own goals. Then in Eternal he was a text to speech reader with a cool voice. The best parts we get of him in Eternal is when he's telling the slayer he can't shoot mars and that a canon is a weapon, not a teleporter. It was just a small glimpse at the character he used to be, futilely trying to tell the slayer what to do and failing miserably.
I hope in future iterations of DOOM we see him again, I honestly see him as key part of the franchise now. Kinder like how many of the different demons will always make a return for different games I hope he is a character that will make many returns in the franchise in the future. (Though maybe with better writing.)
What happened, man...
Making everything connect back to everything else only works in the Hero's Journey. "Luke I am your father" is full of gravitas and pathos of the highest order ... "DOOM GUY, I am the Seraphim!" ... ok, huh? Who cares. It's like they wanted instant-pathos-just-add-character-reveal and it doesn't work in that type of story.
I despise stories in which all the characters are revealed to be somehow connected for the sake of the plot. Like Final Fantasy 8, off the top of my head. "Oh, all of these completely unrelated characters who met at this military school all happen to have come from the same orphanage back when they were children? Okay. WHY?"
It always feels so contrived, unrealistic, and lazy writing.
he has Literal Love Handles for hips, there was nothing left to ruin
this is a joke but still HE HAS LITERAL LOVE HANDLES!
WITH TACTICAL RUBBERIZED GRIPPING SURFACES!
Nah, I feel like the story is made uncompleted for the people to make their own view on it… If there is mystery there is exitement… Dooms lore does this well enough
The seriphim was a simp for the father so taking the fathers sphere and no longer having contact with him was bad but Samuel was still loyal even though he was a maykr.
Samuel still believed in the father to a fault…disagreeing with the kahn maykr for the plan of argent with hell believing it was heresy to the fathers will (whom he simped for)
So seeing the slayer as an opportunity (Idea influenced by the dark lord ironically) he took the chance to rid the current regime of maykrs.
After messing with the plans of the maykrs by giving strength to the slayer the maykrs saw it as heresy (for there are two factions of the maykrs)
you see a picture of Hayden's human form in 2016, I feel like if they wanted to bring him back as a character separate from the seraphim they probably could if they wanted to.
You are a really underrated TH-camr, ngl.
I played D eternal without playing 2016 and i was like who tf is this robot dude
i'd highly recommend playing doom 2016 then, would answer all of your questions.
We will watch your career with great interest
oohhh. that's mischaracterization of my comfort character by the official devs...
He’s hot
Gonna comment on this before this video blows up
I like how you used the DooM 3 skin in the gameplay
Doom slayer:Hayden shut tf up
Hayden: we can’t blow up mars
And another really bad thing about the last part you said about that it was explained why he was ok to yeet Vega who's a Father just fine (own ambitious and believing that he'll be better leader than him or Davoth) but it was explained on s fucking stream by Hugo after the comment suggesting this question
YES!! This is the content DOOM needs!!
Best DOOM Video I've seen in a long time man
Samuel isn’t the reason the demons got to earth. It was the Maykrs that decided it was humanities time to give penance so they opened to gates of hell to earth, in exchange they got to syphon the argent energy from the souls of the damned. Anyways, I never saw Hayden as a villain in Doom 2016, he wasn’t a good guy, but he wasn’t evil to me. Just had a heavy lack of foresight with Olivia Pierce. Maybe that’s where the disconnection for you is coming from?
Yeah, I was disappointed when I encountered Hayden. I wanted Doomguy to be the one to bring him proper justice, but next time you meet him he's already wrecked.
Although honestly I think they still did him more justice than Ashley in REmake 4. Everyone seems to love the new Ashley, but I think she's just really awful. They completely changed her and also turned her into a boring do good girl. The secret agent talk scene on the elevator was just so bad, it's the kind of thing a 12 year old girl would say. Not a mature 20 year old student who knows very well that she can't ever be a secret agent because she's the f***ing president's daughter and would be recognized everywhere. And that's just 1 of the many issues I have with the new Ashley.
You just can't shoot a hole into the surface of mars
He was just a cool synth boi who wanted the best for humans, sure he was a bit untrustworthy, but he was a cool beeper..... and than in doom eternal he became a litteral robo nugget 😏
sir do not let yourself act up because of that robots usb port
@Oronoto but it just looks warm and inviting, might have to knot :3
@@jasperfox6821 😦
@@jasperfox6821 straight up jorking it to this rn