The Vatican 2 documents explained : Without understanding the following you will never be able to understand the documents. I will list here, what the documents consist of, by name and by title. But you will never find the list of these names inside the documents this is deliberate. For the purpose of concealment. But what you will find in every paragraph of every page the “definition” of the terms listed. Therefore the Vatican two documents consist of “definition” only: 1) Indifferentism 2) Syncretism and Synthesis 3) Immanent 4) Transcendentalism 5) Individualism 6) Existentialism, naturalism 7) Stoicism 8) Pantheism 9) Evolution 10) The Sciences such as historian sociology psychology critic… If you look up Saint Pope Pius 10 Encyclical “ Pascendi Dominici Gregis” you will find he new about Vatican 2 and wrote a detailed comprehensive explanation of Vatican 2, listing in detail more than half of the items above listed, and he even explains, in example, how it is meant to diminish Jesus Christ and the one true church and desecrate all seven sacraments and to leave the door open for more of modernism and Progressive changes in the future. He is not alone !!! Pius 10 on the Errors of Modernism, Pius 9 his Syllabus of Errors and Pope Gregory 16 in his Encyclical “Mirari Vos” see #19 on the waldensians,the Beghards,the Wycliffites, and all the popes condemned the documents of Vatican 2 and the Synod of Pistoia and warned the faithful with excommunication, anathema if you don't reject the Vatican two documents, and church, and embrace the one true traditional Catholic Church, the depository of faith, before the end of your life. As you examine these terms and then read the Vatican two documents you can clearly see the “definition” of all the above listed terms, but not the terms themselves, and the evil,and that it is no longer Catholic but a new religion that will lead you straight to hell !!! Then what are we to do you ask ? If you are a true Traditional Catholic then you are supposed to do what the Blessed Virgin Mary told us to do in these evil times, that she described at Fatima, in the third Secret. Not the fake phony Third Secret that John Paul II falsified and Rewritten, along with the fake Lucia !!! But the real true Third Secret of Fatima. You are also to do what the Blessed Virgin Mary told us to do at La Salette, France and again at Our Lady of Good Success, who described in great detail what is to happen to the Catholic church at the end of the 20th century and she was 100% right !!! What do we do then ? what did she say to do ? She said to say the Traditional Rosary, not the rosary of John Paul II, the Traditional Rosary 15 decades everyday or 5 decades on Monday, 5 decades on Tuesday, and 5 decades, on Wednesday. Since the Mass is the greatest prayer of all !!! you get the Saint Andrews missile (and no other missile) but the St Andrews missile, and you say Mass every Sunday (you're not able to consecrate) but you can still say the prayers of the Mass !!! From only the Saint Andrew's missile. You can say the rosary, the Seven Sorrows of Mary, the Stations of the Cross, all at home. Have nothing to do with today's fake Catholic Church!!! NOTHING !!! This means all Vatican 2 priests and parishioners also the sspx,sspv,cmri,fssps… It will be a mortal sin and send you straight to hell. You say your prayers at home, you stay at home, and you say your prayers at home, the Traditional prayers of the church and you say them every day. You read the Bible the Catholic Bibleand no other since all other Bibles have been Rewritten with attacks againt Mary !!! and study the lives of the Saints of the church, and stay away from newly written or revised books on the market today !!! Don't buy any books on the market after 1960 !!!! What about confession and all that ? You confess your sins to God the Father, Son and Holy Ghost using the prayers in the St Andrews missile, in the confessional which is in the back of the book, or you say one of the seven penitential Psalms along with the act of contrition. That's your confession, at home where you are safe both in body and soul !! For baptism you do the same at home with the proper, Matter, Form and Intent !!! But whatever you do have nothing to do with the Vatican 2 Church even if it's empty do not go in it !!! P.S.- the Most Holy Family Monastery is a good resource me and my colleagues have kept a close eye on them for over 20 years I highly recommend them. God Love You Joseph
Should the Novus Ordo mass be slightly reformed to be a little more traditional? Probably. is the Novus Ordo mass illegitimate or invalid? Absolutely not
Anniballe Bugnini, a closeted Freemason, developed the NO in order to destroy the mass. When Paul vi realized it, he was exiled to Iran. But too late, the damage was done and no pope has reversed it.
From what I understand, it's supposed to be similar to the older form as far as the form -- the priest facing the altar _with_ the people, for instance. It was the bishops who were responsible for instituting the new order, and they got "creative" in their interpretation of the documents. There were so many Modernist bishops ready to break with the past that they were motivated to make the form look different.
@@kimfleury - the bishops who ied the charge were Bernhardin of Chicago , a discredited abuser who held much power , Weakland, another abuser and Mccarick. No wonder we have a mess
The novus order I go to is extremely reverent. Our priest is very traditional so is the music and the look of the church. There isn't a TLM within 3 hours so I'm lucky I guess.
@reintaler6355 guess I should've said favored by consequence... can't please everyone. Funny how some terms trigger people so hard they just do drive bys like that.
The problem with online media is that a small issue with a few churches is made to look like a prevalent crisis. All the NO I've attended since I was a little kid have had lots of reverence and no funny business.
What's astounding is the faithful enthusiasm of young families through the TLM against the backdrop of a NO dominated liturgical landscape where belief in the real presence of the Eucharist has been steadily declining for decades... and yet TLM is the one that gets the crackdown.
Amen!!! I was raised by quintessential examples of 80’s NO Parents, my childhood parish looks like the ones portrayed in Mass of the Ages (if you’re familiar) I’m 25 now with 2 kids of my own and we have found great inspiration and strength in the TLM community. Even the conservative NO church we were attending beforehand didn’t put such an emphasis on promoting young married couples as the TLM we attend now. Support your local TLM!!😊
It's not not really useful to compare them. In one you have small group of people that intentionally seek TLM, they are already serious about their faith. The second group is mix of... well everybody else. It's diverse in terms of involvement with faith. I appreciate NO it kept me catholic in times of doubt. I don't think TLM would do so.
@@Mila-kz8tt my mother was converted through the NO and I respect its influence in the faith lives of many people. For my wife and I that was largely the TLM. I just dont get why we get the crackdown in light of real problems currently faced by the church.
That’s because the TLM attracts serious Catholics so it makes the TLM masses that much better. And it attracts serious Priests. I’m sure there bad Latin masses before Vatican II.
I'm not making this comment directed towards you Mr. Horn so don't take it that way. I find it very fascinating how many apologists, theologians, and "public" Catholics attend anything other than the Novus Ordo. I don't have hard numbers, it would be a fun stats project, especially considering how few the number of non-Novus Ordo Catholics exist compared to Novus Ordo.
@@TheCounselofTrent personally, I attend the novus ordo but as someone with access to several non Latin rites as well as a few TLMs I wish more people had the opportunity to experience the diversity of liturgy within Holy Mother Church.
@@fivevs1 personally, I’ve enjoyed the different “flavors” of Catholicism. I attended the Byzantine right daily for about 10 years during the week and went to the Ukrainian Catholic rite on Sundays. I’ve also gone to the Latin mass - whenever I can. Personally, I love all these rites Even the Novus Ordo when said reverently is beautiful. I just don’t find many of them around. And I’ve never understood why the Novus would be preferable to the Latin mass as one who has studied the development of liturgy - I just don’t believe the NO - is as perfect an expression of the Catholic faith I certainly can give many reasons why this is so - and I have friends who attend the Novus ordo regularly. They freely acknowledge what I am saying. And those friends that I am talking about include clergy.
So you go to the Byzantine rite because you prefer it - same reason the vast majority of Catholics who attend the TLM attend there.Difference though is the Pope isn’t squashing opportunities to attend the Byzantine rite as is the case with the TLM. The eastern rite that I attend most often has many Latin rite Catholics - who would gladly attend the TLM if it were available. Problem in our area is the vast majority of Novus Ordo masses are more of a distraction than an opportunity for austere worship. I could give examples but I don’t really need to belabor the point.
I agree with everything you said but just want to point out that Eastern Catholic DL has been suppressed (and then restored) throughout Church history. Hopefully the next generation of Bishops and Pope will know better and not only restore the TLM but embrace it.
@@MikeOrtego I agree Pope Benedict was hopeful that the reverence and profound sense of trinitarian worship found in the TLM would impact on how the NO is done .
No, it would be as if Trent went to an _old form_ of the Divine Liturgy, and preferred it to the newest form. The Extraordinary Form and the Ordinary Form are both the Roman/Latin rite.
NO is more of a distraction than an opportunity for austere worship? Really? How disrespectful to Christ. Mote and plank here. Perhaps the failure can be located within your hard heart.
33:17 - So, if the Vatican suddenly started coming down on the other Liturgies of the Church to where only the NO Mass was available, how would you feel? If the Byzantine Liturgy (which is beautiful, by the way and one I would defend as well) were to suddenly be either outlawed or were to be made so impractical that you had to travel hours to get to it, would you feel like a valid member of the Church family? Add to that the branding you would feel if anyone hearing about your love for the Byzantine Liturgy made you a schizmatic and an enemy of the Church and someone who should be avoided, I think you can understand how those who have loved the Latin Mass for the past 60 years may feel.
Well, if I was told I cannot attend the Byzantine Liturgy because I'm not canonically Byzantine (which is more realistic than the whole liturgy being suppressed) I would be very disappointed but I would continue to attend mass and find beauty in the mass at my local parish. And I agree no one should be branded a schismatic for simply enjoying a certain liturgy. However, in sharing this for this episode I wasn't trying to enter into the "liturgy wars". I'm responding to people who claim I have to no right to offer praise for the NO and who mistakenly think I hate or despise it.
@@TheCounselofTrent you did enter the liturgy wars, if even inadvertently. You said you are a Roman Catholic, though you attend an Eastern Catholic Church. Most traditionalists are totally cool with that because it's a beautiful liturgy. You, however, made a point to say that if you don't attend divine liturgy, you attend a Novus Ordo despite access to a TLM. That implicitly shows that you believe the NO is superior. Of the 3 liturgies you mentioned, the only one you do not go to is the TLM. As for not being able to comment on the Roman liturgies, you should be able to comment on whatever you want to, I do have to wonder why you don't become a Byzantine Catholic? It seems the speculation is so that you can comment as a Roman Catholic on Roman Catholic issues...
@@oggiep3915 I don't think that "you attend a Novus Ordo despite access to a TLM" necessarily means "That implicitly shows that you believe the NO is superior". It may just be a matter of convenience, connection to some of the people in a particular parish, or possibly a personal preference without believing that any form of Mass is actually inferior or superior. If Trent is saying that reading too much into what he's said into the past is causing people to accuse him of things that he doesn't believe, it's not going to help continuing to read too much into what he's saying. "You secretly hate it, but aren't willing to admit it." "No, I don't secretly hate it." "So you're saying that you secretly love it but aren't willing to admit it? I knew it!"
@@TheCounselofTrent I go to NO, TLM, Byzantine Divine Liturgy. There’s No comparison. The novus ordo was intended to be Protestant-friendly. Mission accomplished. That’s why mass attendance is 17% in the NO and 99% in TLM. The vote is in. Catholics have rejected the NO in droves. They became prots., the exact opposite of what we were told would happen. Well Played Vatican 2, well Played.
"If there's so many, many masses, well then you're going to come across ones that are not as reverent in their worship." Can you say the same thing about the TLM?
Historically? Absolutely. Do you think that before the reform of the liturgy there weren't any abuses? Have you read the rubrics of the TLM? Have you read what the priest NEEDS to do during the liturgy? He has almost 500 distinct things he NEEDS to do. If he doesn't, then he is abusing the liturgy and the rubrics. Now are you as bold to claim that all Latin Rite priests before the VII did everything letter for letter according to the rubrics? Msgr. Charles Pope claims otherwise: "As for there being no abuses before 1970, dream on. All the old guys I trained under for the Latin Mass (back in the mid 1980s) told me that it was dreadful how the mass was celebrated in the old days: mumbled Latin, skipped prayers, half genuflections, not even waiting for the servers to finish before moving on to the next prayer; masses that should have taken a good 40 minutes to celebrate reverently were routinely done in 18 minutes. Communion was routinely distributed in larger parishes by priests, beginning immediately after the gospel, while the priest celebrant went on with the current Mass; sung liturgies were abhorred by most clergy and when they did sing them they were usually done in a horrible and tortured tone with indistinct pronunciation since they were not used to enunciating the Latin, but mumbling it. So when they sang, most just mumbled aloud. I have heard recordings from the time and can personally affirm that homilies were often skipped, even on Sundays. Most of the old guys said the Corpus Domini nostri prayer while they gave communion to as many as five people, mumbling it as a norm. The Liber Usualis had long been abandoned by most parishes and they used recto tono (usually 8th tone) chanting in its place . . . . People came late and left early and had legalistic notions that if they made it by the gospel they were safe. Leaving after communion was epidemic." The only reasonable reason why the TLM currently doesn't see any abuse is because those that wish to celebrate it, actually rigorously learn to do everything letter for letter.
I think Liturgy Wars is just (or mostly it is) an American (USA) thing. I live in Latin America, and I've been a Daily Mass catholic, but I never heard of Liturgy Wars untill I saw it on english speaking catholic Twitter. For me and all the people I know that live an intense sacramental life, (dialy mass and weekly confession) Mass has always been NO (and in most cases it has been done with reverence). I have attented TLM (in Rome) and Byzantine mass (USA) once, and I would say they were beautifull, but I dont see how could you celebrate them in the poor areas of latin america, or even how they would be good for evangelization of some many places. Many churches in this areas are really poor, and may not have the Gregorian Chants and the beautiful ornaments, but I am pretty shure Mass is still the same exact sacrament and source of lords grace. Some of the most fruitfull experiences in my sacramental life were not just in great Roman Churches, but in poor places where I can see the devotion of people that realy trust in Lords mercy and offer him everything they have. Sorry if my english is not perfect.
@Ventura I really wasn't addressing "the problem with Trent attending an eastern rite". If the Church allows for the Eastern rite as a valid form of celebrating the sacrament, then Trent may go there if he chooses to. Not choosing to attend NO is not a problem, the problem is criticizing other Catholics for attending NO, or even having contempt for the NO itself. You may choose to attend the liturgical form you prefer if the church allows for it. Going to TLM, NO, or Byzantine doesn't make you more or less Holy, but showing this divisive, and angry reaction all the time surely is not something a saint would do. I really was commenting on how American Traditional Catholics talk about this issue as if it's an issue of the whole Church, when it really is a marginal issue, that is just present in some particular places. I am pretty sure most of the contemporary saints were not fighting over the liturgy, or attacking the Pope, or creating polarizing sides.
@Ventura Again, no ose says that people must attend NO. Trent did not say people should or must go NO in order to be a good Catholic. The problem does not lie on people wanting to attend another valid liturgy, it lies on creating division by criticizing NO goers or NO itself. To make an analogy, its not the same to say: I love Soccer, than I love soccer because basketball sucks. Its just the same as the difference between patriotism vs nationalism. Liturgy Wars is analogous to Nationalism not to patriotism. Trent may go to Byzantine Rite because he likes it and thats it, he does not need to hate or despise NO to do it. Thats the difference. The majority of catholic apologists? Or you mean the majority of Catholic apologists you know, which are all american? Do you know catholic apologists outside of english speaking world? That is what I mean with this being an american issue. I know there are some people in Europe that may fight over this, but still is a really marginal issue. It well maybe the case that there were Saints that fought for how the liturgy should be, but tell just one contemporary saint that have fought THIS war. Lefebvre? I am pretty sure he is far from being a canonized saint.
The entire world was evangelized and converted using the Latin Mass including Africa. For centuries we were warned by saintly people of a new world order taking over. Well Paul vi named the post conciliar Mass the “new order”. Duh.
SSPX is in basically every Ibero-America country dude (not every important city though). The only reason you didn't hear about any "liturgy wars" was because the Popes tried to (unsuccessfully) vanish the TLM, and because we Ibero-American people are less lucky and have way less TLM parishes available, in fact the SSPX are the only ones providing it, pretty much.
@@AugustoMagno1973 Yes, I knew about the SSPX, but I always regard them as cismatic, since Mons Lefebvre was excomulgated. It was not just until recent years the status of SSPX has improved. Anyways, I did knew the TLM, but I never saw the TLM as in oposition to NO. I only knew this oposition to the NO or in general, when I saw it on USA Traditional Catholics. It seems to me that some traditional Catholics like to Pontificate on things that are not really necesary parts of Catholic Tradition. I don't really like the idea that the Pope made really dificult to Catholics to access TLM, but some Traditional Catholics should see this as an opportunity to be humble, not mad.
It's just that all the most influential Catholic influencers and apologists do not attend NO. I know that you can only speak for yourself Trent, and have no control over where Fradd or Hahn or Lofton etc choose to attend Mass. It's just that there is a trend and the reason for that is being ignored in the hierarchy. I have a Tridentine mass and Byzantine Mass available to me but I choose to attend the NO most often. I go to a parish across town, about 50 minutes on public transit, in all sorts of horrid Canadian weather. I do have a NO that's a 7 minute walk from my house but it's one of those modern circular churches with a projector screen for song lyrics that is much larger and more prominent than the crucifix. There is a lot of clapping encouraged for insipid homilies. I'll go there if I'm running late that day but it's something that I offer up as suffering through. The NO I attend is not a unicorn. It is in a church that is historically significant and beautifully restored though. The history and tradition of faith in that building is something that instantly puts me in a reverent state of mind. The Mass is versus populum but at least the high altar, rails and tabernacle are there and beautifully prominent. The priests deliver decent homilies, orthodox in teaching but with a warm, pastoral tone. There are lay readers, altar girls and deacons who will help distribute the Eucharist. The organ needs to be restored and so sometimes we have a guitar nun and sometimes a man with a piano, leading some traditional hymns and also some of the cheesy ones. I'm GenX so I grew up hearing boomer music and can even enjoy it. I do understand why millennials can't. Music at mass should be timeless. I do love the community there. It is next to a university with a lot of international students so we have a lot of young people from diverse backgrounds. The older congregants are always asking about the needs of the younger people. So there are a lot of community programs and groups and the place feels alive. Because of this, I love my parish. It's not because of the form of the Mass. If I had my way, we'd be bringing back ad orientum, the incense, Asperges, raising money for organ repair, the Kyrie, some Latin. If the hierarchy could understand that we are thirsty for tradition and reverence and the history of our faith. Sometimes we need some quiet and some stillness instead of "participation". The modern world is bombarding us with an overload of noise and nonsense. Where can we find beauty and truth if not in our churches? Give us some of His peace, please.
Precisely this. It's an "i got mine, sucks to be you" position. It would be one thing if they attended these masses and defended them accordingly, but they don't. They go to trad masses, diss trads and act like nothing is going on. They're ostriches with their heads in the sand
Do you have evidence that Scott Hahn goes to TLM regularly? I mean, he is an Opus Dei member (like me), and we only have very reverent Novus Ordo Masses.
@@snokehusk223 Projectors for the texts of the hymns are very widespread in the Eastern European country I originally come from. I guess they are afraid hymnals would be stolen? The Masses are still very reverent and more traditional than most of what you see in Western Europe. In the country I live in, we use hymnals all the time.
To get it out of the way: I'm pro Novus Ordo, and I know it can be celebrated in extremely reverent ways. BUT, I'd encourage people who dismiss (not Trent Horn, but lots of other Catholic influencers) criticisms to the new Mass or to Pope Francis persecution of TLM as uninformed or as some form of sedevacantism to see how novus ordo is celebrated in most countries outside the USA. I live in one of the 5 largest capital cities in Brazil and we have just one place to attend TLM, only 10am on Sundays. Besides this there are only two places who do Novus Ordo in a way that doesn't look like some protestant worship. All the others are full of claps, drums and guitars. It's all nice and good to pat Pope Francis on the back for his persecution of TLM like it's to curb some political movement when some of you have enough TLM or reverent Novus Ordo / EC masses for the people interested in attending. Most places aren't that better off.
To me, if the Eucharist is valid in the NO and it is done with reverence, then I’m going to my local parish instead of finding a church hours away that does TLM; if I had a convenient choice between NO and TLM, I would probably choose TLM - but I don’t have that convenient choice. I do notice a lot of popular apologists and public Catholics go to TLM, but that is kind of misleading as to determine which is “better”. We see all these academic Catholics choose TLM but you don’t see all the holy “average”Catholics at the local parish living their faith within their local communities (they are not academic but they are holy (working the soup kitchens, st Vincent de Paul Society, Knights of Columbus, etc, etc, etc….) - I think God prefers holy). Every Sunday (and thru the whole week) I witness these people living, sharing and spreading their faith at a local level. And since most attend the NO, it can’t be too bad, especially if the Eucharist is valid; the “best” mass is any mass that gives us a valid Eucharist; which is really what it is all about.
@Paladin Hup I'm mostly not a fan of people who try to be passive aggressive shi**y for no reason, especially by taking a rare thing and trying to make it sound like it's a problem inherent in the NO mass. But hey, keep putting a specific liturgy over Christ's Church. Let me know how that works out for you in the end
I’ve never seen a reverent novus ordo and I’ve been to many all over the east coast. All of the ones I’ve been to have either had EMHCs without grave necessity, or used versus populum, or used piano, or used lay readers, or totally lacked the use of Gregorian chant
What’s wrong with lay readers for the first two reading? At my parish only the deacon and priest give communion (kneeling and on the tongue), they face the altar, they use the organ, and sing completely in Gregorian chant but it’s not reverent because lay people read the first two readings? They even have a Mass that is completely in Latin
@Lucid Locomotive idk. I do think that in certain parts of the country novelties that are associated with the NO are less common, but not in my diocese lol. And I've also gotten this admission by some catholics, that a reverant NO is one that is done by the rubrics.....which allow for all of these things. So yes some catholics are being truthful when they wonder what we're talking about, but I do think others that are stuck going to guitar masses unintentionally move the goals posts because they don't want to hate on an officially promulgated liturgy. I try to take a middle position that the NO is not bad in the rubrics, but it was stupid to push it out like they did because the novelties were going to be radically exploited.
Glad you brought up about the hypocrite accusations. I pictured people saying that about some of the other catholic TH-camrs also. It doesn't follow that just because a person loves the TLM, they must automatically hate the NO. I'm going to convert and attended one No Mass so far and found it to be reverent and fine.
I gotta say in regard to this whole TLM vs NO debate, it’s very discouraging as a candidate in RCIA. I believe I’m joining the one true church founded by Christ and there’s disunity here just like in Protestant churches, with some telling me my parish is sending me to hell because it’s the wrong kind of Catholic?
No Church will have perfect unity where everyone agrees on everything. In fact, the Church doesn't weigh in on certain theological questions that God did not reveal, and so disagreements will arise. But the unity among Catholics who have conflict over prudential judgements on things like the liturgy is far higher than the alleged unity among Protestants who disagree on essential matters of doctrine and can't even agree on what is essential. In any case, I will pray for your RCIA journey!
@@TheCounselofTrent agree on the prudential judgements having a higher unity than many Protestants. But seeing some TLM advocates telling me outright there’s no valid pope and I’m joining a false Catholicism because I attend a NO church seems a bit more extreme than a simple preference for a perceived more reverent liturgy.
Sorry to hear about your struggles, but I do admire you for still going through RCIA 😇🙏 praying for you! If it helps, a lot of a church and parish life and practices depends on the community. I attend a parish with a school and is over 100 years old, so it’s a mix of ages and activities so people have a chance to grow how they need to. It’s kinda big, so there’s some issues with not knowing anyone but you hear about them eventually. My older brother attends a parish in a farming/country town of Czech and German ancestry led by a Vietnamese priest 😅 Everyone knows everyone, there’s always some kind of get together with a church group, and the introduction of egg rolls have made the bazar a fun hit 😆 Either mass and parish is fine, but it’s definitely dependent on one’s life and station. I have friends that like to attend the high masses with incense, chanting, and kneelers, which are things I know would not appeal to the people I meet at those parishes. Those people aren’t any less ‘reverent’ because they don’t bow on every cue, and the kindness and love they show as a community is a reverence and offering to God in its own way. Just keep studying and find the place God is calling you to. So long as the basic forms of the mass are met, it doesn’t really matter how many steps and actions you do to show reverence to God. Jesus is there and wants you to unify with him. 😇 Hope the rest of your formation goes well!
@@arsenicrice9990 those are sedacvantists and are basically Protestant masquerading as Catholics like the Bishops in Germany but on the opposing side theologically. Any Catholic who says there isn’t a valid Pope is either ignorant or purposely misleading people. Either way don’t pay them no mind
As someone who’s attended different forms of the Novus Ordo throughout my life, I can reliably say that some NO Masses are far, far more reverent than others. My childhood Mass was pretty much the caricature NO to a T. It took place in a school gym with stackable plastic chairs, (so no pews or kneeling), consistently about 5 extraordinary ministers, and a guitar-and-tambourine-centric worship band. I didn’t know better at the time, so I didn’t see an issue, but as an adult, I have to say I don’t approve. Of course, the Mass is still valid, though. Every week, I received the body, blood, soul, and divinity of Jesus Christ. I attend an NO Mass now, and it’s very different. It’s in an actual, beautiful church with all the hallmarks of a real church. The music is in English, but it’s played on a piano and I cantor. The congregation is mostly older people, and they love to see me receive the Eucharist on the tongue and wear my chapel veil. We have a deacon, too. My point is that Novus Ordo Masses run the gamut. We’re not all going to clown Masses.
Have you ever considered canonically switching to an Eastern rite church, Trent? After attending for a few years, I recently put my paperwork in for a transfer.
We've discussed it but it's a huge commitment. One issue is that we want our sons to have more flexibility if they discern a vocation to the priesthood.
@@TheCounselofTrent Is there some problem with becoming a priest while being part of an eastern rite? I have not heard of one, could you expand on this?
@@stanley2696 If we were canonically Eastern then I'm not sure if my children could become priests in the Latin-rite if that's the direction they wanted to go. I'll probably look into that more in the future.
@@TheCounselofTrent wouldn’t he have more discernment in the Eastern Rite. If he felt called in that Rite he can be married before becoming a Priest if he feels called to both. That doesn’t exist in the Roman Rite if he felt the pull of both
One can dislike the NO and prefer the TLM, but one must know the boundaries of their critics. To say that the missal promulgated by Pope Paul VI is not authoritative is a mistake. To say that the pope does not have authority over liturgical and disciplinary traditions of the roman rite is a mistake. To say that the missal promulgated by Pope Paul VI is not a valid and legitimate expression of the Roman Rite is a mistake. We are in a liturgical crisis, no doubt, but there is no Crisis in the Church that requires an attitude of suspicion or disobedience towards Holy Mother Church and her pastors. We must not despair when the storm hits the barque of St. Peter. God bless you, Mr. Horn.
I think the scariest thing about to NO is that is IS valid. Imagine a mass that is directly correlated with a lack of faith in the True Presence and at the same time subjects our resurrected Lord to that non-belief daily.
Wow, there's a crisis in the Church. I wonder how that happened. I wonder how we started losing vocations, and priests asking for laicization, and Catholics not knowing the basics of the faith. How did we get to the point where more Catholics don't believe in the true presence than those that do? The new mass is valid, but it was certainly a mistake.
@@oggiep3915 post hoc, ergo propter hoc fallacy. Why blame everything on VII? Why not blame it for the culture, for the secularization, leftist ideology etc. During and after the Council of Trent many Catholics left the Church and joined the protestant reformation. Is that also the fault of the council that promulgated the TLM? Why accuse the VII reforms for not handling it well. When the TLM that was promulgated by Trent and the Pope have arguably failed even more than Vatican II? Doesn't seem very astute and logical to say something like that.
@@oggiep3915 I don't know how. I have some suspicion over what causes the theological and the liturgical crisis, but I cannot know for sure, that's an analysis way above my grade. Do you tho? There's also the possibility that you're just connecting dots as well, just as Chimps can do. There's a really large debate over the factors that caused past crisis that followed councils, imagine about an ongoing crisis. Some, like Benedict XVI suspected the cause of these happenings to be fault of the "Indifferentism" + latin juridicism applied to liturgical innovative theology, as well as the rupturist liberal hermeneutic strength after the council. There are many possible reasons why these things happen to us, some we know for sure that are not at fault. After all, believing that Rome proclaimed a Missal that is not a legitimate expression of the roman rite or that is legitimately harmful to the orthodoxy and orthopraxy of the Church is an ecclesiological absurdity, but you do know that, don't you?
What I find the most shocking in these TLM and NO conversations is that Catholics lay people seem to think they are part of or have some influence on the decisions of the Magisterium or the Pope. We don't get to vote for Bishop like the Episcopal's or other prods do. And it's unbelievable to me that Catholics who are really dedicated to attending TLM feel they can make broad generalizations and apply them to individuals. Sadly it goes beyond observation and into the side of judgment. Like here in this discussion group one poster says the NO mass is not reverent and the priest is not conducting the mass properly. When you consider what that really means is the host is not being concentrated. Then that same person says that people are walking all over the Lords body from all the crumbs that have fallen to the floor. You just can't have it both ways. Please pause and look at what is being said, it's almost like Alex Jones is writing the script. This is not behavior that will lead to a well ordered life.
When the angels and demons are battling and an angel is defeated where does it go? How about the demons, when they lose where do they go? Does this become an infinite loop?
I love all the masses, I find myself mostly at the TLM bc I want to kneel and receive on the tongue and that's the only place I've found that I can do that without being "judged." I've even been refused communion for it at NO. If NO was accepting and encouraging of reverence to the Eucharist I'd be fine going there (and if save gas ha).
Whoooa... As someone who has attended Novus Ordo all my life (Where you gonna find TLM in the rural American South?), I would be shocked if a priest denied me communion for kneeling. And I'm in a very rural area with some of the Novus Ordo-iest Novus Ordo Masses in the whole Novus Ordo, with guitars and such during some parts of the Mass, and typically just me, one convert, and one Hispanic family are the only "kneelers" at communion, and there is no rail. Pretty much the only "traditional" thing at my church is that they do "Agnus Dei" and "Sanctus" and such during Lent and Advent. Just shocking that some priests would deny communion for that, especially since there is no canonical prohibition on it. I would call the bishop on that priest, even if you're not likely to go to that church again, just because he should definitely still be offering. Was it a Boomer priest?
@@gunsgalore7571 it was a boomer priest and he started yelling at me about COVID 19. This was about 3 months ago in the FREE STATE of NH!!! As he held the body of Christ he's saying "Covid 19 blah blah blah" demanded I receive on the hand only. I was beyond shocked. I always just kneel on the floor if there is no rail or kneeler. I travel a lot and go to all kinds of masses but I always kneel and this is the first time I was denied!
@@KH-vp4ni Boomer priest... Yup, that's starting to make sense. And the issue was Covid? Now I'm pulling a 180, not surprised at all, as I have had priests, boomer and otherwise, make Covid statements before communion, demanding that everyone receive by hand. I complied, because though I prefer the tongue and kneeling as more reverent, I certainly wouldn't pass on the Eucharist when I don't have a mortal sin on my soul. But yeah having it come without warning like that, as if you were just "expected" to know you were supposed to get it on the hand, is just nuts.
The Vatican 2 documents explained : Without understanding the following you will never be able to understand the documents. I will list here, what the documents consist of, by name and by title. But you will never find the list of these names inside the documents this is deliberate. For the purpose of concealment. But what you will find in every paragraph of every page the “definition” of the terms listed. Therefore the Vatican two documents consist of “definition” only: 1) Indifferentism 2) Syncretism and Synthesis 3) Immanent 4) Transcendentalism 5) Individualism 6) Existentialism, naturalism 7) Stoicism 8) Pantheism 9) Evolution 10) The Sciences such as historian sociology psychology critic… If you look up Saint Pope Pius 10 Encyclical “ Pascendi Dominici Gregis” you will find he new about Vatican 2 and wrote a detailed comprehensive explanation of Vatican 2, listing in detail more than half of the items above listed, and he even explains, in example, how it is meant to diminish Jesus Christ and the one true church and desecrate all seven sacraments and to leave the door open for more of modernism and Progressive changes in the future. He is not alone !!! Pius 10 on the Errors of Modernism, Pius 9 his Syllabus of Errors and Pope Gregory 16 in his Encyclical “Mirari Vos” see #19 on the waldensians,the Beghards,the Wycliffites, and all the popes condemned the documents of Vatican 2 and the Synod of Pistoia and warned the faithful with excommunication, anathema if you don't reject the Vatican two documents, and church, and embrace the one true traditional Catholic Church, the depository of faith, before the end of your life. As you examine these terms and then read the Vatican two documents you can clearly see the “definition” of all the above listed terms, but not the terms themselves, and the evil,and that it is no longer Catholic but a new religion that will lead you straight to hell !!! Then what are we to do you ask ? If you are a true Traditional Catholic then you are supposed to do what the Blessed Virgin Mary told us to do in these evil times, that she described at Fatima, in the third Secret. Not the fake phony Third Secret that John Paul II falsified and Rewritten, along with the fake Lucia !!! But the real true Third Secret of Fatima. You are also to do what the Blessed Virgin Mary told us to do at La Salette, France and again at Our Lady of Good Success, who described in great detail what is to happen to the Catholic church at the end of the 20th century and she was 100% right !!! What do we do then ? what did she say to do ? She said to say the Traditional Rosary, not the rosary of John Paul II, the Traditional Rosary 15 decades everyday or 5 decades on Monday, 5 decades on Tuesday, and 5 decades, on Wednesday. Since the Mass is the greatest prayer of all !!! you get the Saint Andrews missile (and no other missile) but the St Andrews missile, and you say Mass every Sunday (you're not able to consecrate) but you can still say the prayers of the Mass !!! From only the Saint Andrew's missile. You can say the rosary, the Seven Sorrows of Mary, the Stations of the Cross, all at home. Have nothing to do with today's fake Catholic Church!!! NOTHING !!! This means all Vatican 2 priests and parishioners also the sspx,sspv,cmri,fssps… It will be a mortal sin and send you straight to hell. You say your prayers at home, you stay at home, and you say your prayers at home, the Traditional prayers of the church and you say them every day. You read the Bible the Catholic Bibleand no other since all other Bibles have been Rewritten with attacks againt Mary !!! and study the lives of the Saints of the church, and stay away from newly written or revised books on the market today !!! Don't buy any books on the market after 1960 !!!! What about confession and all that ? You confess your sins to God the Father, Son and Holy Ghost using the prayers in the St Andrews missile, in the confessional which is in the back of the book, or you say one of the seven penitential Psalms along with the act of contrition. That's your confession, at home where you are safe both in body and soul !! For baptism you do the same at home with the proper, Matter, Form and Intent !!! But whatever you do have nothing to do with the Vatican 2 Church even if it's empty do not go in it !!! P.S.- the Most Holy Family Monastery is a good resource me and my colleagues have kept a close eye on them for over 20 years I highly recommend them. God Love You Joseph
If a Catholic in 600 AD attended a mass in 1952 - they would hardly notice a difference - they would know they were at a Catholic Mass. This is because the Church has always viewed the Mass with such reverence that changes were made same as a gardener would prune flowers in a garden- changes were done organically to prune the flowers 💐 n the garden to make the garden more beautiful! If that same Catholic attended a Mass in 1974- or today - I don’t think they would even recognize that they were at a Catholic mass- because the mass was changed in such a drastic way - in a way unprecedented in Church history that it bears very little resemblance to what had preceded it - shocking to the senses - a rupture
Too true. During COVID, I saw a Novus Ordo Mass said in the vernacular (Spanish this case) and it looked like that solution everybody in the Church bickering over Liturgy is wanting. It was held Ad Orientem, most of the "optional" prayers remained, chants were sung instead of contemporary instruments, instead of Latin, Spanish was spoken instead. If all Novus Ordo masses looked like that, faithfulness in the Church would be no problem
@@Jkp1321 - therein lies the reality that most PRACTITIONERS of the new mass do not want it to be reverent. No contemporary practice today associated with the NO are actually called for at all, they're all inferences of permission. Traditionalists should work also to make the Novus Ordo more traditional, as in it's strictest form, as done by the books, it resembles a vernacular translation of the Tridentine Mass
@@Jkp1321 i don't think you've ever attended a regular novus ordo Mass, but it is very obvious it wasn't designed around being "fun". Sure, some people try to add things that might make it seem more fun, but the core missal to the Mass does not give that impression at all. I've been attending the Novus Ordo most Sundays since I was born, and the only times they tried to make it "fun" was when I was a kid going to the school Mass.
Confusing times. The damage VII has done is self evident. The lack of basic understanding of the majority of those st a NO mass is terrible. Even catholic teachers don’t know that you should not receive the Eucharist when not in a state of Grace. It is a big issue. How big is the issue?
Here in Sydney, Australia, I have only ever had positive experiences with highly reverent, awe filled Novus Ordo masses (granted, my experience is very limited, having not been to too many parishes). Perhaps the liturgical abuse is very American? Or perhaps I have just been insulated from the worst of it down under.
Out of curiosity (I'm Canadian and have never been to Australia), in your experience, do the Novus Ordo masses there have Latin or is it mostly (or entirely) vernacular? Is there Gregorian chant? Does the priest celebrate ad orientem or versus populum? Do most people receive Communion on the hand or on the tongue? Is the church shaped like a long boat/box or like a semicircle/fan?
@@AustinoM My experience is *extremely* limited. (So take what I say with a grain of salt). That said, I have never heard Latin, but I have heard parts of the liturgy chanted on multiple occasions.
Probably definitely an American thing. I only grew up NO and had developed a great love for my faith through it and the V2 encouragement of laity participation. I’m one who finds meaning in helping and being active, so it was nourishing having opportunities to sit and move when needed. It wasn’t until college that I met my current Catholic group that I realized things like TLM and other Rites. Good, faithful people, though sometimes I find our discussions about mass forms a bit… petty, I guess? They go on and on about reverence and saying how V2 “messed up” the Church, but I just don’t see it. The parishes near me have always been active in church, the town/community, and the hospitality and friendship they extend to others is wonderful. I just think people are too focused on THEIR preferences and needs to realize not everyone is the same spiritually. They like the Latin chants, back facing offerings, and long prayer silences. Whereas I prefer following along in my vernacular, observing the sanctuary, and having just enough time to pray before my mind wanders. A mix here and there is fine, but to say one is more “reverent” and thus more “valid” than another is when I smell Pride with them, which turns me off.
I think it is primarily an American and lesser an Anglo problem. We see the Church thriving in Africa with the NO adapted to their culture and I see the same thing in my Parish's Spanish mass. These masses have aspects that many English speaking Catholics would dislike such as guitars or drums, no silence, versus populum, EMHC. But they are also overflowing every Sunday, have loads of children and young families, veils and receiving on the tounge kneeling. I think we are so polarized in the English speaking population politically and culturally that we can't come to an agreement on how we would all like to have the mass celebrated so the flexibility of the NO does not work for us in many Parishes and causes division over liturgical preferences. There are exceptions of course.
@@revelation1215 I might strengthen this and say it's a problem for each parish to overcome. My parish is moving towards more reverence and tradition. All it took was people asking for it.
Adam and Eve did choose to deny the obedience to God in His presence. The demons disobeyed God in His presence. The people who saw Jezus face to face perform miracles crucified Him. So I agree with Trent that ultimately people choose hell themselves, no matter how crazy it sounds.
That would likely be in the condemnation of Origen. The doctrine of Origen that all men and devils will eventually be saved was condemned by the early Church.
I loved the Novus Ordo masses I went to in Boston 10-11 years ago. They were so reverent, the music was beautiful and traditional, and everyone was kind and faithful. I’ve been to some terrible N.O masses in Boston too, but I haven’t found the beauty in N.O ever since those times. Byzantine liturgy? All day. I want to formally join the church via the Byzantine side of things. Hopefully I get to skip RCIA which is…just ugh.
Nice @4:15 you might want to point out the selection was by lot and the two candidates were Justin whose name means Justice and Matthias whose name means Gift of God. Matthias won Fratelli tutti para 15
The onus is on the Catholic to show what teaching authority the apostles had that //isn't// connected to their status as apostles. Because that's the authority that could legitimately be said to belong to a successor, who isn't an apostle. Authority that flows from being the men hand-picked and taught directly by God, something not true of anyone else, that authority cannot belong to a successor.
The authority the apostles had is to "bind and loose" the rules of the church. In Mathew 16 Simon is proclaimed leader and in a later chapter, Jesus clarifies that they all have the "keys to the kingdom". Using such power, they appointed successors who also exercise that power. I know this is true, because the apostles's successors told me that Matthew's Gospel is a true account of what happened.
"Authority that flows from being the men hand-picked and taught directly by God, something not true of anyone else, that authority cannot belong to a successor." Matthias was chosen by the Twelve (not Jesus) to replace Judas. Paul, while directly called by God to spread the word, was one out of many to do so after the Resurrection. Yet he was one of the few to be called an apostle. All authority that was not from God himself, was from the Apostles. They could choose successors.
@@Cklert 1. If that example at least points to the principle of apostolic succession, who holds Judas' office today? 2. And would a successor of an apostle, not taught his theology directly by God (Paul claim he was in Galatians), have the same authority of the apostle he replaced? I feel you've skipped around that. Can a successor really claim to be speaking God's theology? The apostles authority in part derived from their being able to show they were sent by god through signs and wonders (Acts 5:12). Can the successors do this? If it was necessary for the apostles to show that they carried God's authority when teaching the vanilla gospel as per the Bible, how much more necessary is it to demonstrate the Catholic church has God's support when promulgating dogmas not taught in scripture or for a thousand years of church history? We can put an attack on the Catholic argument formally into modus tollens. If p then q, not q, therefore not p. --If the election of Matthias to replace Judas and occupy that same office demonstrates a fundamental and necessary organizing principle of God's church, then, if replacing Judas was worth it, minimally, the church must have maintained successors in the Judas / Mattias line. --The church does not have, and never cared to have successors of Judas, Matthias --Therefore replacing apostles is not a fundamental and necessary organizing principle of God's church. You can only extrapolate successors of Peter from the example in Acts if that really is an example of apostolic succession and office-filling the church takes seriously. Then you can turn to Peter and say "here's the same principle". But how many Catholics give a damn about who occupies Judas seat now? How many Catholics really think "so this passage establishes apostolic succession, and that's why it didn't carry on for anyone by Peter". Remember, Catholicism tries to establish a principle of unending succession in part by pointing to an example of succession that did not continue. --Yes, there are other churches that claim apostolic succession, Coptics for example, but that are not in communion with Rome. So apart from Peter, how many of the 12 apostles offices has the Catholic church kept filled? It's such an important thing! Look at Acts! How many are part of the One True Church? I'm an atheist. Not a Protestant, not Orthodox, not Mormon. You don't need to pull me away from another faith I'm invested in. Just make a coherent case for Rome.
Perhaps there is an answer to whether Terminator or Data would go to Heaven in whether they are in the image of God or not. I suppose that depends also on whether non-human, animal souls will go to Heaven. Being a Protestant, I don't really know any Catholic teaching on that issue. Would anyone care to inform me?
Not at the top of mu head, but might I recommend Jimmy Akin? He’s a Catholic apologist and convert who answers “weird” questions like this. If you look up “Jimmy Akin’s Mysterious World,” there are topics and questions he goes pretty in-depth on. I’m more familiar with his idea on the Church baptizing or offering formation to aliens, but I know he’s discussed souls and androids/AI a few times.
@@jendoe9436 Horn and Akin are just about the only Catholic apologists I watch. Love their debates. I do watch Fradd and bishop Barron (sp?) sometimes too.
I love the Terminator movies! I love the TV series more but whatever. I think the question about their going to heaven hinges on whether or not God created them and if so, did he create them for himself? My recollection is that they were human creations gone awry and thus not creatures of God though I could be wrong about this. It's been a while since I watched the movies/tv series
Trent has mentioned he doesn’t do rebuttals of rebuttals and would rather have a dialogue/debate if possible. But it may not be easy with scheduling and sometimes the topic can be too broad or divisive that it may not be worth engaging. For example, it may be fruitless to talk about Marian dogmas if the person is avidly anti-Catholic and has demonstrated uncharity with the topic. One of those pick and choose battles that Trent may not engage in so he can focus on matters that can be fruitful.
I am saddened to see that the mass is given differenet status (NO, TLM,this rite and that rite).. sounds like Jesus is bifurcated into all this, when actually he came to unite... i wish the church could have all rites called as the holy eucharist or holy mass.. not segregate into ordinary and extraordinary...
43:20 "I do lean libertarian in a lot of my philosophy". I do the same, but what would you respond to those catholic who claim that popes in their encyclicals have infallibly condemned liberalism AND its related doctrines such as democracy and freedom of speech and religious freedom. I know Benedict XVI has spoken in favour of religious freedom, but some would say that that doesn't matter because he hasn't invoked infallibility on that occasion.
Amazing how the only positive thing anyone can ever think of saying about the Novus Ordo is that it's valid. A priest could say the words of institution on a garbage dump and it would be valid.
There is no reverent NO in my town in the Netherlands. We don't have a byzantine catholic church close by either. I feel pulled to Catholicism, and need to be validly baptised, but the SSPX is the only reverent mass nearby. I love the mass there but stopt attending because I feel conflicted about their status. The state of the NO in me area in the world and the infighting about the SSPX makes it very hard for me to take the next step.
I understand the conflict. I used to be an SSPX attendee for seven years until I finally couldn't justify my attendance given what the Church says regarding them and their actions towards the Church. The only consolation that I can give is that the Church is the Bride of Christ and that you will find grace within her bounds, even if sinful clergy or laity give scandal or of the liturgy is done poorly. If you feel God is leading you toward the Church, then trust in his providence to provide for you, even if that means have to suffer through bad liturgies. Prayers for you.
@bumponalog5001 No, it's in schism. A basic understanding of the definition of schism (Catechism 2089) can make that clear since Society Christians who refuse to commune with most Catholics in the world. Also, Lefebvre's ordinations against papal mandate were a schismatic act for which he and those ordained were excommunicated.
@@bumponalog5001 I decided to call the fssp Parish that is just too far away for me to attend weekly. I did this a few days ago. The Priest was kind enough to tell me that my particular sspx Priest consults our Cardinal with every step he takes. He ensured me that all the sacraments are valid and approved by the Cardinal. I'm getting ready for church in a few hours, so I'm really excited 🥳 Listening to online voices got too confusing. I prayed to God to please show me what to do, and within a day I was on the phone with the sspf Priest. God is good 🥰 Thank you so much for your comment!
If the Novus Ordo was simply re-crafted to follow what Vatican II actually mandated, then the English version would essentially become an English version of the Tridentine Mass and there would be very few or no problems with it. But the Novus Ordo as it currently exists and has existed for many years eliminated too many of the important elements of the Tridentine Mass and therein lies the tale. Easy solution, so why hasn't it been done? A misplaced ecumenical rationale behind at least part of the Novus Ordo accounts for much of the blame.
Because we have a Pope who currently does not favor Traditional liturgies. There might be a reform in the near future, but it won't be during this Pontificate.
The parish I'm at is already doing great work to increase reverence and tradition in the mass. You just need to get involved at your parish and ask for what you want. I don't reccomend fighting upstream at a really out there place, but incremental changes are pretty easy at the average parish.
@@Joker22593 That is indeed a good thing at your parish, except the primary issue is not reverence but all of the teaching and other elements in the Tridentine Mass not found in the Novus Ordo. Increased reverence is about 1/4 of all that is needed to fulfill the directives of Vatican II and enhance the liturgy for the benefit of the people. Also, incrementalism will not work. In fact, it has already been tried and failed. What is needed is a universal push to restore what was taken away, but given the current make-up of bishops and priests across the board, such does not seem very likely at this time, and tiny changes will also not be permitted or enjoy wide enough impact to make a meaningful difference. Already we do have a few parishes here and there that do a few nice things, but not nearly enough, and these parishes are not inspiring others to join them; so much for your incrementalism approach. As this is a universal problem, it needs universal solutions; not ineffective incrementalism.
Because there was one vacancy in the company of twelve of those whom Christ had chosen to be witnesses of His Life and Ministry, and to be His intimate friends, as compared with the larger body of His other followers. So only one witness to the Life of Christ needed to be chosen in order to fill the vacancy.
Jesus is timeless as in Hebrews, "Jesus Christ is the same yesterday and today and for ever." (Hebrews 13:8). But his human nature experiences the constraint of time, just as he has a human body and soul that are constrained to what humans can do, nonetheless as a whole Person Jesus is the Son of God, God.
Your analogy of hell to prison is incoherent. The aim of prison is rehabilitation, seperation from society and deterance. If the aim of prison was the torment of the imprisoned, then only morally disordered people would think prison is just. Hell as traditionally conceived is non-rehabilitative by design and has the primary aim of tormentous punishment and thus morally disordered as well. The traditional Catholic belief in hell is torturous punishment for the sake of punishment - - imagine being burned to death forever. We dont torture people for the sake of torturing them in prison and there is no way to make such a practice just, no matter the crime. Then we start combining this understanding with what constitutes a mortal sin - - leaving an abusive marriage and remarrying; disagreeing with a dogma (depending on which Catholic you ask - this list may be increadibly long); missing mass without cause; contraception; immoderate alcohol use; deprived a spouse sexual intimacy without just cause etc, etc. To think a wife who had a low sex drive should be endlessly tortured for unrepentantly refusing sex without just cause is insanity. The teaching on hell can only make sense when it is looked at in isolation of other Catholic teachings. Now, one response is people are "quickened" after death. This perspective does not make any sense in relation to purgatory as that process should shed disordered attachement to sin. It is also not based on anything observable and experienced by us on earth, so it is really just conjecture to reconcile people to the idea of an evil idea (Eternal Conscious Torment). Then, you also say you are open to the idea that people will by neccesity keep sinning in hell - - this would be to deny free will in hell, so what remains of people in hell are not agents with a will - - so how could they be justly punished for additional sins at that point? The person in hell that you describe is much more equivalent to the insane person from your example. "Really evil people recoil around goodness" - - but the population of hell, based on the majority position of Catholicism for 1500 years is that only a tiny fraction of people in hell would be "really evil people" by any definition you or I would use. Most people do not recoil around goodness - - does that mean they are destined to heaven?
How about this…if you love our Lord, it’s in union with the bishop in union with the Pope and gives us the body and blood of our Lord to a freshly confessed soul? Yeah it’s legit!
the important question would be is AI made in the image of God? are they fallen creatures with the initial sin? if not, what are they saved from exactly? So no, I don't believe AI can be saved
As many holy people have said in the past, The Mass is a place where heaven and Earth meet. It is the prerogative of God to give that grace and to be present in the Eucharist. We can only participate through faith and the calling of the Holy Spirit. The celebrant is not a magician and cannot conjure the body and blood of Christ. No matter what form is used, the Grace of God is the only factor. To assure the faithful, the Church is the custodian of the sacramental economy.
I never really liked the TLM I just prefer reverent NO But if you say you don’t like the TLM you’re a liberal No, you’re a liberal if you like an irreverent NO
I'm really really tired of the traditionalist movement in the church tbh, do those guys know that there are some entire countries on earth where there are not vetus ordo masses? I live in Costa Rica and here there are not vetus ordo masses, what should I do then become sedevacantist or something? This is why I stopped caring for "church politics" and "liturgy wars" a long long time ago when I discovered that all of this polemics are just bad for your soul.
I'd think courage still exists in heaven. Here's a question: in heaven we'll have bodies in heaven and therefore hands. If I accidently squeeze your hand too hard in heaven when shaking hands, would it not 'hurt' you a little?
I wouldn't go that far. The NO is a valid form, but there's zero excuse for the restriction of the TLM, also a valid form. The two can coexist and people will inevitably vote with their feet.
When I was younger (before V-2), we had the TLM exclusively. Catholics knew the Catholic Faith better back then, for example: You would have to look far and wide to find a Catholic who actually believed Jesus is a human person.
@@bengoolie5197 I don't know if this is meant as irony but you know that this actually disproves your point right? Jesus, by merit of the Hypostatic Union, is both fully human and fully God, has two distinct intellects, natures and wills. So saying that "You would have to look far and wide to find a Catholic who actually believed Jesus is a human person." actually kind of counters this because it would be Heresy to claim that Jesus doesn't have a human nature and wasn't fully human in the Incarnation. I'm pretty sure from your comments that people back then DEFINITELY didn't know better.
On the problem of evil, I don’t think it’s possible for God to have created completely free humans without the possibility of them choosing not to seek God, and abusing their freedom. Just saying “God can do anything” doesn’t make this paradox go away anymore than suggesting God can make a square circle, both completely round and with 4 even sides and 90 degree angles. It’s just a nonentity like a free human who can never sin when initially created.
Presuming you're Catholic, is Mary a non-entity then? To me at least, I would have a tough time grasping that God would intend for us to sin by making us free which is what your conclusion seems to be. I think you're spot on in that we've always had the possibility to not seek God with our free will. But I don't believe being free and never sinning are logical impossibilities.
@@Cklert God never intended for us to sin, although I know some Calvinists will say otherwise. Mary is unique case because if we believe she was given the singular grace of being guarded from sin with the same kind of higher moral intellect that we no longer have, she would have had a particular advantage over Adam and Eve; that being that while having no implicit desire to sin as they wouldn’t have had, she was in a world broken and suffering from the consequences of sin. Adam and Eve didn’t know what their disobedience would do. But Mary, with the knowledge of what sin truly is, and not having concupiscence, naturally did not sin, especially being uniquely guarded by the Holy Spirit in the singular grace to bear Jesus.
The Novus Ordo is the least of the problems. The problem with Vatican II is it feminize the church and introduced bad practices such as Eucharistic ministries, etc. but they also brought in good practices such as the more ancient practice of receiving both kinds (receiving the body and blood eating and drinking).
I do not care for Eucharistic ministers. I refuse to get the Eucharist from anyone other than the Priest. I also now have to explain to my daughter that she can’t be an alter girl because the church now uses them when girls can’t become priests Both of these man made traditions should be jettisoned.
@@enshala6401 You have female altar girls, females Eucharistic ministries, female lay readers, female collecting the offerings, etc. Vatican II has allowed female laity to serve in areas which have been historically reserved for males only.
@Paul Ah, I see what you mean. I agree with you on many of these concerns. It seems like the best option for all is to have plenty of options for both the TLM and the Novus Ordo so parishioners can be provided with their spiritual needs. However, here is something to consider. Before I became Eastern Catholic, I was in the Western Church for a while. I've been a lector, a cantor, an extraordinary minister of the Eucharist, and a Director of Music Ministry, all because I was asked to do so when they needed me. What was I supposed to do, say no? I was even asked to perform a minor exorcism. Again, what was I supposed to do? Say no? How could I? All I did was say yes and stayed close to the religious and prayed 2 to 6 hours a day for over 2 years during this time when they needed me.... Then my service was complete, and somehow I knew it... and then God moved me 1500 miles away to a new chapter in my journey. And that is just one story of the females who participate in these ministries. That said, we will never have female priests, and I hope you understand the difference. We take our Sacred Traditions very seriously. Anyway... I still think that until you join the Church Jesus' gave us, you will be unfulfilled. I say this as a former Protestant of 30 years. Will keep you in my prayers.
@@P-el4zd before Vatican II there were no Eucharistic ministers. Vatican II went to absurd lengths in my opinion to include the laity. It’s laity run amok. It decreased reverence in these areas. The NO I attend through my daughters school at least does some music in Latin usually a song or 2 and sticks to traditional hymns. It’d be nice if they brought some Gregorian Chant back because even according to Vatican II that is THE standard for holy music And yes the TLM should stick around but it is what it is I guess right now
Why is it the only nice thing i ever hear about the Novus Ordo is that its vaild, and on occasion you get reverent Priests eho say it reverently? What a low bar. How do we not see how big a problem that is? The Latin Mass does not allow for non-reverency by its rubric. The priest doesn't get to play performer amd change stuff. Thats the whole point. The Novus Ordo is objectively worse, its not a debate.
I needed this video badly. Last night found a 2 hour long apologetic video on the history of the Traditional Latin Mass castigating the NO as an anti-church had me questioning my confirmation into the Church ... if you have the time to address it I feel it gives the same style of rhetoric as the Satan Loves Catholicism video you rebutted, this time with respect to the NO.
Go to the Reason and Theology TH-cam channel run by Michael Lofton who has expertise on the Magisterium and answering objections from the Society of Saint Pius X (SSPX) and others who severely criticize/reject developments of Vatican II and its wake. For example, Watch his video titled "Is the Novus Ordo Inherently an Offense to God? SSPX Answers"
Yup, he got the names swapped around. lol Personally I liked Sharona more, mainly because she stood up more for Monk and his disabilities in front of others versus Natalie who made up excuses about his disabilities. Also Sharona's character and her background was way more interesting than Natalie's posh upbringing. Natalie was just "nice" with no goals and didn't add much to the show.
Not all are, but unfortunately there is a sizable contingent of people who have embraced varying degrees of SSPX or Sedevacantist arguments and just mimick them in the comments. There are a lot of Catholics who love the Roman Rite of 62 who are totally faithful to the Church.
I'm surprised that Trent regularly attends the Byzantine liturgy despite being a member of the Latin Rite and thus living within the parish boundaries of his nearby Latin Rite parish. My understanding is that, while the Church permits Catholics to attend any valid mass, it is encouraged and preferred that they be involved with their local parish of the Rite to which they belong. Recently, I've grown increasingly more saddened by the seeming complete lack of interest that most Latin Rite parishes in my area (Ontario, Canada) have in celebrating the Novus Ordo as Sacrosanctum Concilium envisions it. No Latin, no Gregorian chant, no mass ad orientem, etc. I am within reasonable driving distance of a mass that celebrates the extraordinary form, which I find much more in line with the mind of the Church, since the way the Novus Ordo is celebrated in most parishes I've been to is - to me - obviously not in line with what the Church intends, specifically regarding the Vat II Fathers. But, since the Novus Ordo is certainly valid, and since I am a member of the Latin Rite and within the parish boundaries of a Latin Rite parish that celebrates the Novus Ordo just a few minutes from my house, I attend that mass because I think that's the proper thing to do. I don't see how we're supposed to reform the Novus Ordo liturgy to bring it more in line with the mind of the Church if people like me (and Trent) keep leaving and going to other parishes outside our parish boundaries.
Ironic, I live in Ontario and attend a Novus Ordo mass that also celebrates Latin Mass. I also do not go to my local parish and drive 25mins further to attend. It's done much more in line with traditional mentality vs my local parish. I imagine It's not up to the laymen to determine how the priest should celebrate.
@@TheRealDealDominic it's more of a market decision. The big young faithful families gravitate to reverent masses, so the 1970s timelocked NO parishes have an expiration date if they don't offer a TLM. This is a big reason "divison" is being attacked by Traditiones Custodes
@@Christofascist_Hup Have you ever attended a NO Mass that is celebrated as intended by the Council? I have belonged to at least three parishes with reverent, uplifting NO Masses in Cambridge MA, in St.Paul, MN and in Palo Alto, CA. I converted to the Roman Catholic church 45 years ago this Easter after attending a NO Mass on Holy Thursday. Later I also attended several TLM Masses in many different locations and , frankly, if that was the only Liturgy available I most likely would have become Orthodox instead of Catholic. Guess what, there are liturgical abuses at TLM Masses, too! I have sung at a Gregorian Chant NO Mass for 20 years, and finally in my new location there is a nearby Ordinariate of the Chair of Saint Peter Parish, so I get to experience beautiful, solemn Liturgy and music in elegant, uplifting English! What a blessing!
Because there isn't a NO that is done reverently nearby? I am lucky enough to know of the parishes that do the NO reverently in my area and do attend them along with the local TLM.
I do attend the novus ordo. I don't regularly attend the novus ordo for the same reason I don't regularly attend TLM, Anglican Ordinariate, or Maronite (all of which are options where I live): the reason is that I have a particularly affinity for the Byzantine Divine Liturgy. Also, I don't expect others to share this affinity since I invite people to attend though I notice most people won't prefer it, which is fine. To each his own.
What's wrong with preference? I know people who attend a specific church because they prefer a specific priest that isn't their closest. Is that wrong / does it disprove Catholicism?
@@TheCounselofTrent "To each his own" I agree. I take it then you are against TC then? I'm not familiar with your position on it and would love to hear it given your work. I just think that those with an affinity for the TLM should be able to attend, personally.
How do you find out the heresies in sermons/doctrines/traditions/rituals if not alone by the Bible? I've been trying to get the answer but don't find satisfactory answers.
@@docverit2668 Think deep. How would you find out the heresies in the sermons/doctrines/traditions/rituals if not by the Bible alone? I've tried 'catholic answers' before. They have pre existing questions and answers. Not satisfactory. And why do you ignore what the apostles wrote for us?
@@Theunspokentruth77 "think deep" as if this hasn't been debated and responded to for years by the deepest thinkers on the planet. But hey, just because you say so, they are all going to fall down and worship your thoughts on the topic. We all know how deep a thinker you are. Your credentials are impeccable. oh wait, who are you? 🙏🙏
I’m a convert, and the pompous attitude from the TLM crowd can be off putting. One of the reasons I came to Catholicism and not Orthodoxy was for unity! They must have no idea how bad the Protestant churches are right now or they would be moved with compassion for how much people need the Catholic faith. They’re offended by lay readers and pianos and circular architecture? Good grief. Don’t be a whitewashed tomb.
"They must have no idea how bad the Protestant churches" Ironic you saying this given that our current hierarchy and pontiff will use any opportunity to praise Protestants and shower them with unending lauds while they bash the big mean Trads. Looks like you need to get with the script. Prots are actually good! Francis is on record saying Anglicans don't need to convert.
Since there are people in the comments who think a reverent NO is very rare I will share two that I know. Our lady of Peace in Santa Clara California done by the IVE priests(institute of the incarnate word) and St Lawrence the martyr in North Highlands CA weekday and 10am sunday mass done by the PES priests(Pro Ecclesia Sancta). From my limited experience, it seems N.O. mass done by priests from religious orders tend to be more reverent than masses done by diocesan priests. The only other one I can think of is the founder of Ignatius press Fr. Joseph Fessio SJ a Jesuit. I had the honor of attending a retreat with him as the resident Chaplin and he gave a talk about how since Vatican II he decided to go with as much Latin as possible in his mass since they gave him the freedom to do what he wants with his masses(im obviously paraphrasing what he said since it was a long homily) and when he could he would do it ad orientem which was awesome. Now you would think that he was just doing the TLM low mass but he said he was doing the N.O mass but with all the optional parts of the mass being filled with Latin as well as the readings and facing ad orientem. At that point it was just hard to to tell the Fr. Fessio's mass apart from a mass from the FSSP! He even cut out "let us offer the sign of peace"😂. That just proves there are some pretty awesome Jesuits out there!
@Mthf because I have been to a few. Quiet. Unfollowable. People continually fumbling through duotangs pretending to know what is going on. People standing, sitting, and kneeling at separate times. Mumbling a bit of Latin here and there out of sync with other people (not like they know what the Latin means anyway). After one TLM I attended, I spoke with priest after mass. Even he admitted to me that even he doesn't understand the Latin. Which is why TC Art. 3. 4. is a very good idea: to appoint a priest who...possess a knowledge of the Latin language sufficient for a thorough comprehension of the rubrics and liturgical texts. Most people who attend TLMs on a regular basis seem to do so as a protest against contemporary bs , which is understandable, but pretending that the TLM is the solution to all of the churches, and, for that matter, all of societies problems is just fanciful. Moreover, what is of greater concern to you: the rubrics or the style and manner of the celebration?
One’s domicile is the parish’s the territory within which you live. The Code of Canon Law doesn’t specifically bind anybody to attend Mass therein. But, a lot of TLMs would be considered “personal parishes” as opposed to geographical ones. Nothing wrong with attending Mass with such communities.
Short answer: There is no obligation to attend the parish in which your domicile is located. Long answer: Every parish has geographical boundaries. But, you are under *no obligation* to attend the parish in whose boundaries you reside. A Catholic is free to attend *any* parish for Mass, confessions, etc. on any given day/week. You are also free to become a "member" of that parish, if they have some form of registration and they are not concerned with where you live. Most parishes operate this way. *Why do parish boundaries exist?* If you are seeking to get married, have a funeral, or some other pastoral care, the canon law regarding parish boundaries identifies which parish is *canonically obligated to provide to you* those pastoral services. It is common for parishes to offer such pastoral care to any Catholic who requests it (even though they are not strictly obliged to) especially if the person has made a connection with the parish over time. In the Code of Canon Law of 1917, the wording about the obligation to attend Mass made a reference to the parish whose boundaries you resided in. So back then, even though there was not a strict obligation to attend Sunday Mass at that parish, there was at least an expectation/understanding that you would. The Code of Canon Law of 1983 revised that and made it clear that there is no such obligation.
No, you're not a hypocrite. You're just doing what Vatican 2 teaches and the disastrous results of it, which highly embraces modernism. Typical "apologist". Same goes with the so called "bishops" and "priests" of our time.
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I used to support to Trent, but then he mixed up the names of Monk's assistants. Some things just can't be excused.
😂
The Vatican 2 documents explained :
Without understanding the following you will never be able to understand the documents. I will list here, what the documents consist of, by name and by title. But you will never find the list of these names inside the documents this is deliberate. For the purpose of concealment. But what you will find in every paragraph of every page the “definition” of the terms listed. Therefore the Vatican two documents consist of “definition” only:
1) Indifferentism
2) Syncretism and Synthesis
3) Immanent
4) Transcendentalism
5) Individualism
6) Existentialism, naturalism
7) Stoicism
8) Pantheism
9) Evolution
10) The Sciences such as historian sociology psychology critic…
If you look up Saint Pope Pius 10 Encyclical
“ Pascendi Dominici Gregis” you will find he new about Vatican 2 and wrote a detailed comprehensive explanation of Vatican 2, listing in detail more than half of the items above listed, and he even explains, in example, how it is meant to diminish Jesus Christ and the one true church and desecrate all seven sacraments and to leave the door open for more of modernism and Progressive changes in the future. He is not alone !!! Pius 10 on the Errors of Modernism, Pius 9 his Syllabus of Errors and Pope Gregory 16 in his Encyclical “Mirari Vos” see #19 on the waldensians,the Beghards,the Wycliffites, and all the popes condemned the documents of Vatican 2 and the Synod of Pistoia and warned the faithful with excommunication, anathema if you don't reject the Vatican two documents, and church, and embrace the one true traditional Catholic Church, the depository of faith, before the end of your life.
As you examine these terms and then read the Vatican two documents you can clearly see the “definition” of all the above listed terms, but not the terms themselves, and the evil,and that it is no longer Catholic but a new religion that will lead you straight to hell !!!
Then what are we to do you ask ?
If you are a true Traditional Catholic then you are supposed to do what the Blessed Virgin Mary told us to do in these evil times, that she described at Fatima, in the third Secret. Not the fake phony Third Secret that John Paul II falsified and Rewritten, along with the fake Lucia !!! But the real true Third Secret of Fatima. You are also to do what the Blessed Virgin Mary told us to do at La Salette, France and again at Our Lady of Good Success, who described in great detail what is to happen to the Catholic church at the end of the 20th century and she was 100% right !!!
What do we do then ? what did she say to
do ? She said to say the Traditional Rosary, not the rosary of John Paul II, the Traditional Rosary 15 decades everyday or 5 decades on Monday, 5 decades on Tuesday, and 5 decades, on Wednesday. Since the Mass is the greatest prayer of all !!! you get the Saint Andrews missile (and no other missile) but the St Andrews missile, and you say Mass every Sunday (you're not able to consecrate) but you can still say the prayers of the Mass !!! From only the Saint Andrew's missile. You can say the rosary, the Seven Sorrows of Mary, the Stations of the Cross, all at home. Have nothing to do with today's fake Catholic Church!!! NOTHING !!! This means all Vatican 2 priests and parishioners also the sspx,sspv,cmri,fssps… It will be a mortal sin and send you straight to hell. You say your prayers at home, you stay at home, and you say your prayers at home, the Traditional prayers of the church and you say them every day. You read the Bible the Catholic Bibleand no other since all other Bibles have been Rewritten with attacks againt Mary !!! and study the lives of the Saints of the church, and stay away from newly written or revised books on the market today !!! Don't buy any books on the market after 1960 !!!!
What about confession and all that ? You confess your sins to God the Father, Son and Holy Ghost using the prayers in the St Andrews missile, in the confessional which is in the back of the book, or you say one of the seven penitential Psalms along with the act of contrition. That's your confession, at home where you are safe both in body and soul !! For baptism you do the same at home with the proper, Matter, Form and Intent !!!
But whatever you do have nothing to do with the Vatican 2 Church even if it's empty do not go in it !!!
P.S.- the Most Holy Family Monastery is a good resource me and my colleagues have kept a close eye on them for over 20 years I highly recommend them.
God Love You
Joseph
Should the Novus Ordo mass be slightly reformed to be a little more traditional? Probably. is the Novus Ordo mass illegitimate or invalid? Absolutely not
Anniballe Bugnini, a closeted Freemason, developed the NO in order to destroy the mass. When Paul vi realized it, he was exiled to Iran. But too late, the damage was done and no pope has reversed it.
Well put..
From what I understand, it's supposed to be similar to the older form as far as the form -- the priest facing the altar _with_ the people, for instance. It was the bishops who were responsible for instituting the new order, and they got "creative" in their interpretation of the documents. There were so many Modernist bishops ready to break with the past that they were motivated to make the form look different.
@@kimfleury - the bishops who ied the charge were Bernhardin of Chicago , a discredited abuser who held much power , Weakland, another abuser and Mccarick. No wonder we have a mess
Not really, the 2 I regularly attend are both very reverent.
The novus order I go to is extremely reverent. Our priest is very traditional so is the music and the look of the church. There isn't a TLM within 3 hours so I'm lucky I guess.
> Wants nothing to do with material modernism
> Nonchalantly uses the term "lucky"
@reintaler6355 guess I should've said favored by consequence... can't please everyone. Funny how some terms trigger people so hard they just do drive bys like that.
@@reintaler6355 I’m failing to find a nice way to say that you may have a thin cylindrical wooden object placed inside of your rear end.
@@erravi and you don't?
@@timboslice980 what makes you think I'm ''triggered''? Also why would a term that's on par with ''superstition'' be appropriate for Catholics?
The problem with online media is that a small issue with a few churches is made to look like a prevalent crisis.
All the NO I've attended since I was a little kid have had lots of reverence and no funny business.
Wow!Where do you live Lincoln,Nebraska?😂😂😂😂😂
What's astounding is the faithful enthusiasm of young families through the TLM against the backdrop of a NO dominated liturgical landscape where belief in the real presence of the Eucharist has been steadily declining for decades... and yet TLM is the one that gets the crackdown.
Amen!!! I was raised by quintessential examples of 80’s NO Parents, my childhood parish looks like the ones portrayed in Mass of the Ages (if you’re familiar)
I’m 25 now with 2 kids of my own and we have found great inspiration and strength in the TLM community. Even the conservative NO church we were attending beforehand didn’t put such an emphasis on promoting young married couples as the TLM we attend now. Support your local TLM!!😊
It's not not really useful to compare them. In one you have small group of people that intentionally seek TLM, they are already serious about their faith. The second group is mix of... well everybody else. It's diverse in terms of involvement with faith.
I appreciate NO it kept me catholic in times of doubt. I don't think TLM would do so.
@@Mila-kz8tt my mother was converted through the NO and I respect its influence in the faith lives of many people. For my wife and I that was largely the TLM. I just dont get why we get the crackdown in light of real problems currently faced by the church.
@@macroglossumstellatarum3068 Your witness is much appreciated and congragulations! We have our firstborn due in July. Deo Gratias!
That’s because the TLM attracts serious Catholics so it makes the TLM masses that much better. And it attracts serious Priests. I’m sure there bad Latin masses before Vatican II.
I'm not making this comment directed towards you Mr. Horn so don't take it that way. I find it very fascinating how many apologists, theologians, and "public" Catholics attend anything other than the Novus Ordo. I don't have hard numbers, it would be a fun stats project, especially considering how few the number of non-Novus Ordo Catholics exist compared to Novus Ordo.
I'm curious to investigate this myself. I know some public Catholics people say go to TLM but actually go to NO.
@@TheCounselofTrent personally, I attend the novus ordo but as someone with access to several non Latin rites as well as a few TLMs I wish more people had the opportunity to experience the diversity of liturgy within Holy Mother Church.
@@fivevs1 personally, I’ve enjoyed the different “flavors” of Catholicism. I attended the Byzantine right daily for about 10 years during the week and went to the Ukrainian Catholic rite on Sundays. I’ve also gone to the Latin mass - whenever I can. Personally, I love all these rites
Even the Novus Ordo when said reverently is beautiful. I just don’t find many of them around. And I’ve never understood why the Novus would be preferable to the Latin mass as one who has studied the development of liturgy - I just don’t believe the NO - is as perfect an expression of the Catholic faith
I certainly can give many reasons why this is so - and I have friends who attend the Novus ordo regularly. They freely acknowledge what I am saying. And those friends that I am talking about include clergy.
I think Fr Rich from the Catholic talk show is a NO priest.
@@carinn.1402 there are tons of Holy Novus Ordo priests
So you go to the Byzantine rite because you prefer it - same reason the vast majority of Catholics who attend the TLM attend there.Difference though is the Pope isn’t squashing opportunities to attend the Byzantine rite as is the case with the TLM.
The eastern rite that I attend most often has many Latin rite Catholics - who would gladly attend the TLM if it were available. Problem in our area is the vast majority of Novus Ordo masses are more of a distraction than an opportunity for austere worship. I could give examples but I don’t really need to belabor the point.
I agree with everything you said but just want to point out that Eastern Catholic DL has been suppressed (and then restored) throughout Church history. Hopefully the next generation of Bishops and Pope will know better and not only restore the TLM but embrace it.
@@MikeOrtego I agree
Pope Benedict was hopeful that the reverence and profound sense of trinitarian worship found in the TLM would impact on how the NO is done .
No, it would be as if Trent went to an _old form_ of the Divine Liturgy, and preferred it to the newest form. The Extraordinary Form and the Ordinary Form are both the Roman/Latin rite.
Not to mention your disparaging the Ordinary Form of the Latin Rite, the representation of the very sacrifice of Jesus, which Trent never does.
NO is more of a distraction than an opportunity for austere worship? Really? How disrespectful to Christ. Mote and plank here. Perhaps the failure can be located within your hard heart.
I would really enjoy you doing a show of the differences between the Byzantine Catholics and Roman Catholics
33:17 - So, if the Vatican suddenly started coming down on the other Liturgies of the Church to where only the NO Mass was available, how would you feel? If the Byzantine Liturgy (which is beautiful, by the way and one I would defend as well) were to suddenly be either outlawed or were to be made so impractical that you had to travel hours to get to it, would you feel like a valid member of the Church family? Add to that the branding you would feel if anyone hearing about your love for the Byzantine Liturgy made you a schizmatic and an enemy of the Church and someone who should be avoided, I think you can understand how those who have loved the Latin Mass for the past 60 years may feel.
Well, if I was told I cannot attend the Byzantine Liturgy because I'm not canonically Byzantine (which is more realistic than the whole liturgy being suppressed) I would be very disappointed but I would continue to attend mass and find beauty in the mass at my local parish. And I agree no one should be branded a schismatic for simply enjoying a certain liturgy. However, in sharing this for this episode I wasn't trying to enter into the "liturgy wars". I'm responding to people who claim I have to no right to offer praise for the NO and who mistakenly think I hate or despise it.
@@TheCounselofTrent you did enter the liturgy wars, if even inadvertently. You said you are a Roman Catholic, though you attend an Eastern Catholic Church. Most traditionalists are totally cool with that because it's a beautiful liturgy. You, however, made a point to say that if you don't attend divine liturgy, you attend a Novus Ordo despite access to a TLM. That implicitly shows that you believe the NO is superior. Of the 3 liturgies you mentioned, the only one you do not go to is the TLM. As for not being able to comment on the Roman liturgies, you should be able to comment on whatever you want to, I do have to wonder why you don't become a Byzantine Catholic? It seems the speculation is so that you can comment as a Roman Catholic on Roman Catholic issues...
@@oggiep3915 liturgy wars are the worst thing of being Catholic, both sides are just boring to listen too
@@oggiep3915 I don't think that "you attend a Novus Ordo despite access to a TLM" necessarily means "That implicitly shows that you believe the NO is superior". It may just be a matter of convenience, connection to some of the people in a particular parish, or possibly a personal preference without believing that any form of Mass is actually inferior or superior.
If Trent is saying that reading too much into what he's said into the past is causing people to accuse him of things that he doesn't believe, it's not going to help continuing to read too much into what he's saying.
"You secretly hate it, but aren't willing to admit it."
"No, I don't secretly hate it."
"So you're saying that you secretly love it but aren't willing to admit it? I knew it!"
@@TheCounselofTrent I go to NO, TLM, Byzantine Divine Liturgy. There’s
No comparison. The novus ordo was intended to be Protestant-friendly. Mission accomplished. That’s why mass attendance is 17% in the NO and 99% in TLM. The vote is in. Catholics have rejected the NO in droves. They became prots., the exact opposite of what we were told would happen. Well
Played Vatican 2, well
Played.
"If there's so many, many masses, well then you're going to come across ones that are not as reverent in their worship."
Can you say the same thing about the TLM?
Shots fired.
That doesn't mean the novus ordo can't be done reverently
@@jackieo8693 It shouldn’t be a possibility, it should be a requirement.
Historically? Absolutely. Do you think that before the reform of the liturgy there weren't any abuses?
Have you read the rubrics of the TLM? Have you read what the priest NEEDS to do during the liturgy? He has almost 500 distinct things he NEEDS to do. If he doesn't, then he is abusing the liturgy and the rubrics. Now are you as bold to claim that all Latin Rite priests before the VII did everything letter for letter according to the rubrics?
Msgr. Charles Pope claims otherwise:
"As for there being no abuses before 1970, dream on. All the old guys I trained under for the Latin Mass (back in the mid 1980s) told me that it was dreadful how the mass was celebrated in the old days: mumbled Latin, skipped prayers, half genuflections, not even waiting for the servers to finish before moving on to the next prayer; masses that should have taken a good 40 minutes to celebrate reverently were routinely done in 18 minutes. Communion was routinely distributed in larger parishes by priests, beginning immediately after the gospel, while the priest celebrant went on with the current Mass; sung liturgies were abhorred by most clergy and when they did sing them they were usually done in a horrible and tortured tone with indistinct pronunciation since they were not used to enunciating the Latin, but mumbling it. So when they sang, most just mumbled aloud. I have heard recordings from the time and can personally affirm that homilies were often skipped, even on Sundays. Most of the old guys said the Corpus Domini nostri prayer while they gave communion to as many as five people, mumbling it as a norm. The Liber Usualis had long been abandoned by most parishes and they used recto tono (usually 8th tone) chanting in its place . . . . People came late and left early and had legalistic notions that if they made it by the gospel they were safe. Leaving after communion was epidemic."
The only reasonable reason why the TLM currently doesn't see any abuse is because those that wish to celebrate it, actually rigorously learn to do everything letter for letter.
@@t_ogaming4881 if you ask for a 10, you'll get 8.
If you ask for 2 but suggest 6, you'll get 1.
I think Liturgy Wars is just (or mostly it is) an American (USA) thing. I live in Latin America, and I've been a Daily Mass catholic, but I never heard of Liturgy Wars untill I saw it on english speaking catholic Twitter. For me and all the people I know that live an intense sacramental life, (dialy mass and weekly confession) Mass has always been NO (and in most cases it has been done with reverence). I have attented TLM (in Rome) and Byzantine mass (USA) once, and I would say they were beautifull, but I dont see how could you celebrate them in the poor areas of latin america, or even how they would be good for evangelization of some many places. Many churches in this areas are really poor, and may not have the Gregorian Chants and the beautiful ornaments, but I am pretty shure Mass is still the same exact sacrament and source of lords grace. Some of the most fruitfull experiences in my sacramental life were not just in great Roman Churches, but in poor places where I can see the devotion of people that realy trust in Lords mercy and offer him everything they have. Sorry if my english is not perfect.
@Ventura I really wasn't addressing "the problem with Trent attending an eastern rite". If the Church allows for the Eastern rite as a valid form of celebrating the sacrament, then Trent may go there if he chooses to. Not choosing to attend NO is not a problem, the problem is criticizing other Catholics for attending NO, or even having contempt for the NO itself. You may choose to attend the liturgical form you prefer if the church allows for it. Going to TLM, NO, or Byzantine doesn't make you more or less Holy, but showing this divisive, and angry reaction all the time surely is not something a saint would do. I really was commenting on how American Traditional Catholics talk about this issue as if it's an issue of the whole Church, when it really is a marginal issue, that is just present in some particular places. I am pretty sure most of the contemporary saints were not fighting over the liturgy, or attacking the Pope, or creating polarizing sides.
@Ventura Again, no ose says that people must attend NO. Trent did not say people should or must go NO in order to be a good Catholic. The problem does not lie on people wanting to attend another valid liturgy, it lies on creating division by criticizing NO goers or NO itself. To make an analogy, its not the same to say: I love Soccer, than I love soccer because basketball sucks. Its just the same as the difference between patriotism vs nationalism. Liturgy Wars is analogous to Nationalism not to patriotism. Trent may go to Byzantine Rite because he likes it and thats it, he does not need to hate or despise NO to do it. Thats the difference. The majority of catholic apologists? Or you mean the majority of Catholic apologists you know, which are all american? Do you know catholic apologists outside of english speaking world? That is what I mean with this being an american issue. I know there are some people in Europe that may fight over this, but still is a really marginal issue. It well maybe the case that there were Saints that fought for how the liturgy should be, but tell just one contemporary saint that have fought THIS war. Lefebvre? I am pretty sure he is far from being a canonized saint.
The entire world was evangelized and converted using the Latin Mass including Africa. For centuries we were warned by saintly people of a new world order taking over. Well Paul vi named the post conciliar Mass the “new order”. Duh.
SSPX is in basically every Ibero-America country dude (not every important city though). The only reason you didn't hear about any "liturgy wars" was because the Popes tried to (unsuccessfully) vanish the TLM, and because we Ibero-American people are less lucky and have way less TLM parishes available, in fact the SSPX are the only ones providing it, pretty much.
@@AugustoMagno1973 Yes, I knew about the SSPX, but I always regard them as cismatic, since Mons Lefebvre was excomulgated. It was not just until recent years the status of SSPX has improved. Anyways, I did knew the TLM, but I never saw the TLM as in oposition to NO. I only knew this oposition to the NO or in general, when I saw it on USA Traditional Catholics. It seems to me that some traditional Catholics like to Pontificate on things that are not really necesary parts of Catholic Tradition. I don't really like the idea that the Pope made really dificult to Catholics to access TLM, but some Traditional Catholics should see this as an opportunity to be humble, not mad.
It's just that all the most influential Catholic influencers and apologists do not attend NO. I know that you can only speak for yourself Trent, and have no control over where Fradd or Hahn or Lofton etc choose to attend Mass. It's just that there is a trend and the reason for that is being ignored in the hierarchy.
I have a Tridentine mass and Byzantine Mass available to me but I choose to attend the NO most often. I go to a parish across town, about 50 minutes on public transit, in all sorts of horrid Canadian weather.
I do have a NO that's a 7 minute walk from my house but it's one of those modern circular churches with a projector screen for song lyrics that is much larger and more prominent than the crucifix. There is a lot of clapping encouraged for insipid homilies. I'll go there if I'm running late that day but it's something that I offer up as suffering through.
The NO I attend is not a unicorn. It is in a church that is historically significant and beautifully restored though. The history and tradition of faith in that building is something that instantly puts me in a reverent state of mind. The Mass is versus populum but at least the high altar, rails and tabernacle are there and beautifully prominent. The priests deliver decent homilies, orthodox in teaching but with a warm, pastoral tone. There are lay readers, altar girls and deacons who will help distribute the Eucharist.
The organ needs to be restored and so sometimes we have a guitar nun and sometimes a man with a piano, leading some traditional hymns and also some of the cheesy ones. I'm GenX so I grew up hearing boomer music and can even enjoy it. I do understand why millennials can't. Music at mass should be timeless.
I do love the community there. It is next to a university with a lot of international students so we have a lot of young people from diverse backgrounds. The older congregants are always asking about the needs of the younger people. So there are a lot of community programs and groups and the place feels alive. Because of this, I love my parish.
It's not because of the form of the Mass. If I had my way, we'd be bringing back ad orientum, the incense, Asperges, raising money for organ repair, the Kyrie, some Latin. If the hierarchy could understand that we are thirsty for tradition and reverence and the history of our faith. Sometimes we need some quiet and some stillness instead of "participation". The modern world is bombarding us with an overload of noise and nonsense. Where can we find beauty and truth if not in our churches? Give us some of His peace, please.
Projector and clapping? That shouldn't be allowed.
Precisely this.
It's an "i got mine, sucks to be you" position.
It would be one thing if they attended these masses and defended them accordingly, but they don't. They go to trad masses, diss trads and act like nothing is going on.
They're ostriches with their heads in the sand
Do you have evidence that Scott Hahn goes to TLM regularly? I mean, he is an Opus Dei member (like me), and we only have very reverent Novus Ordo Masses.
@@snokehusk223 Projectors for the texts of the hymns are very widespread in the Eastern European country I originally come from. I guess they are afraid hymnals would be stolen? The Masses are still very reverent and more traditional than most of what you see in Western Europe. In the country I live in, we use hymnals all the time.
@@fruzsimih7214 I am from Croatia and we don't use it. Maybe some do but I haven't seen.
To get it out of the way: I'm pro Novus Ordo, and I know it can be celebrated in extremely reverent ways.
BUT, I'd encourage people who dismiss (not Trent Horn, but lots of other Catholic influencers) criticisms to the new Mass or to Pope Francis persecution of TLM as uninformed or as some form of sedevacantism to see how novus ordo is celebrated in most countries outside the USA.
I live in one of the 5 largest capital cities in Brazil and we have just one place to attend TLM, only 10am on Sundays. Besides this there are only two places who do Novus Ordo in a way that doesn't look like some protestant worship. All the others are full of claps, drums and guitars.
It's all nice and good to pat Pope Francis on the back for his persecution of TLM like it's to curb some political movement when some of you have enough TLM or reverent Novus Ordo / EC masses for the people interested in attending. Most places aren't that better off.
To me, if the Eucharist is valid in the NO and it is done with reverence, then I’m going to my local parish instead of finding a church hours away that does TLM; if I had a convenient choice between NO and TLM, I would probably choose TLM - but I don’t have that convenient choice. I do notice a lot of popular apologists and public Catholics go to TLM, but that is kind of misleading as to determine which is “better”. We see all these academic Catholics choose TLM but you don’t see all the holy “average”Catholics at the local parish living their faith within their local communities (they are not academic but they are holy (working the soup kitchens, st Vincent de Paul Society, Knights of Columbus, etc, etc, etc….) - I think God prefers holy). Every Sunday (and thru the whole week) I witness these people living, sharing and spreading their faith at a local level. And since most attend the NO, it can’t be too bad, especially if the Eucharist is valid; the “best” mass is any mass that gives us a valid Eucharist; which is really what it is all about.
I live in Raleigh, NC and am surrounded by reverent NO thanks be to God
As much as I prefer TLM, I see absolutely no problem with Novus Ordo. We shouldn't defy the Holy see for he is the Vicar of Christ.
Give this a view. At 1:30:18. “The New Mass is intrinsically evil…”:
th-cam.com/video/vX75xiW2Z54/w-d-xo.html
There's nothing wrong with prefering the TLM. The problem is that the RadTrads are making an idol of it
I'm mostly not a fan of people trampling on the Euchatistic Body of our Lord, but to each is own.
@@williamavitt8264 That's where the problem lies. I fear a great schism is ahead of us. Let's just hope that I'm wrong
@Paladin Hup I'm mostly not a fan of people who try to be passive aggressive shi**y for no reason, especially by taking a rare thing and trying to make it sound like it's a problem inherent in the NO mass. But hey, keep putting a specific liturgy over Christ's Church. Let me know how that works out for you in the end
I’ve never seen a reverent novus ordo and I’ve been to many all over the east coast. All of the ones I’ve been to have either had EMHCs without grave necessity, or used versus populum, or used piano, or used lay readers, or totally lacked the use of Gregorian chant
I'm starting to think that all those things are allowed in a "reverent NO"
*sad cry*
@@1984SheepDog that is also my fear lol. What do these people consider reverent when they refer to these mythical reverent NOs??
What’s wrong with lay readers for the first two reading? At my parish only the deacon and priest give communion (kneeling and on the tongue), they face the altar, they use the organ, and sing completely in Gregorian chant but it’s not reverent because lay people read the first two readings? They even have a Mass that is completely in Latin
It is that attitude which brought a reining in of the TLM
@Lucid Locomotive idk. I do think that in certain parts of the country novelties that are associated with the NO are less common, but not in my diocese lol. And I've also gotten this admission by some catholics, that a reverant NO is one that is done by the rubrics.....which allow for all of these things. So yes some catholics are being truthful when they wonder what we're talking about, but I do think others that are stuck going to guitar masses unintentionally move the goals posts because they don't want to hate on an officially promulgated liturgy. I try to take a middle position that the NO is not bad in the rubrics, but it was stupid to push it out like they did because the novelties were going to be radically exploited.
The old T2 excuse to get out of going to Mass... That one never gets old.
What is T2?
@@landrypierce9942 Terminator 2 the movie @36:11 timestamp
@@landrypierce9942 I also want to know this
@@MrPeach1 I just got to that part of the video.
Glad you brought up about the hypocrite accusations. I pictured people saying that about some of the other catholic TH-camrs also. It doesn't follow that just because a person loves the TLM, they must automatically hate the NO. I'm going to convert and attended one No Mass so far and found it to be reverent and fine.
I gotta say in regard to this whole TLM vs NO debate, it’s very discouraging as a candidate in RCIA.
I believe I’m joining the one true church founded by Christ and there’s disunity here just like in Protestant churches, with some telling me my parish is sending me to hell because it’s the wrong kind of Catholic?
No Church will have perfect unity where everyone agrees on everything. In fact, the Church doesn't weigh in on certain theological questions that God did not reveal, and so disagreements will arise. But the unity among Catholics who have conflict over prudential judgements on things like the liturgy is far higher than the alleged unity among Protestants who disagree on essential matters of doctrine and can't even agree on what is essential. In any case, I will pray for your RCIA journey!
@@TheCounselofTrent agree on the prudential judgements having a higher unity than many Protestants. But seeing some TLM advocates telling me outright there’s no valid pope and I’m joining a false Catholicism because I attend a NO church seems a bit more extreme than a simple preference for a perceived more reverent liturgy.
@@arsenicrice9990 Agreed, but they are in a tiny minority compared to the universal Church and have their voices amplified online.
Sorry to hear about your struggles, but I do admire you for still going through RCIA 😇🙏 praying for you!
If it helps, a lot of a church and parish life and practices depends on the community. I attend a parish with a school and is over 100 years old, so it’s a mix of ages and activities so people have a chance to grow how they need to. It’s kinda big, so there’s some issues with not knowing anyone but you hear about them eventually.
My older brother attends a parish in a farming/country town of Czech and German ancestry led by a Vietnamese priest 😅 Everyone knows everyone, there’s always some kind of get together with a church group, and the introduction of egg rolls have made the bazar a fun hit 😆
Either mass and parish is fine, but it’s definitely dependent on one’s life and station. I have friends that like to attend the high masses with incense, chanting, and kneelers, which are things I know would not appeal to the people I meet at those parishes. Those people aren’t any less ‘reverent’ because they don’t bow on every cue, and the kindness and love they show as a community is a reverence and offering to God in its own way.
Just keep studying and find the place God is calling you to. So long as the basic forms of the mass are met, it doesn’t really matter how many steps and actions you do to show reverence to God. Jesus is there and wants you to unify with him. 😇
Hope the rest of your formation goes well!
@@arsenicrice9990 those are sedacvantists and are basically Protestant masquerading as Catholics like the Bishops in Germany but on the opposing side theologically.
Any Catholic who says there isn’t a valid Pope is either ignorant or purposely misleading people. Either way don’t pay them no mind
As someone who’s attended different forms of the Novus Ordo throughout my life, I can reliably say that some NO Masses are far, far more reverent than others. My childhood Mass was pretty much the caricature NO to a T. It took place in a school gym with stackable plastic chairs, (so no pews or kneeling), consistently about 5 extraordinary ministers, and a guitar-and-tambourine-centric worship band. I didn’t know better at the time, so I didn’t see an issue, but as an adult, I have to say I don’t approve. Of course, the Mass is still valid, though. Every week, I received the body, blood, soul, and divinity of Jesus Christ.
I attend an NO Mass now, and it’s very different. It’s in an actual, beautiful church with all the hallmarks of a real church. The music is in English, but it’s played on a piano and I cantor. The congregation is mostly older people, and they love to see me receive the Eucharist on the tongue and wear my chapel veil. We have a deacon, too.
My point is that Novus Ordo Masses run the gamut. We’re not all going to clown Masses.
Have you ever considered canonically switching to an Eastern rite church, Trent? After attending for a few years, I recently put my paperwork in for a transfer.
We've discussed it but it's a huge commitment. One issue is that we want our sons to have more flexibility if they discern a vocation to the priesthood.
@@TheCounselofTrent Is there some problem with becoming a priest while being part of an eastern rite? I have not heard of one, could you expand on this?
@@stanley2696 If we were canonically Eastern then I'm not sure if my children could become priests in the Latin-rite if that's the direction they wanted to go. I'll probably look into that more in the future.
@@TheCounselofTrent I guess it would depend on if switching rites more than once is allowed. They could seek bi-ritual faculties though.
@@TheCounselofTrent wouldn’t he have more discernment in the Eastern Rite. If he felt called in that Rite he can be married before becoming a Priest if he feels called to both. That doesn’t exist in the Roman Rite if he felt the pull of both
Can you make a video about eastern Catholics and Eastern Orthodox differences?
One can dislike the NO and prefer the TLM, but one must know the boundaries of their critics. To say that the missal promulgated by Pope Paul VI is not authoritative is a mistake. To say that the pope does not have authority over liturgical and disciplinary traditions of the roman rite is a mistake. To say that the missal promulgated by Pope Paul VI is not a valid and legitimate expression of the Roman Rite is a mistake. We are in a liturgical crisis, no doubt, but there is no Crisis in the Church that requires an attitude of suspicion or disobedience towards Holy Mother Church and her pastors. We must not despair when the storm hits the barque of St. Peter. God bless you, Mr. Horn.
I think the scariest thing about to NO is that is IS valid. Imagine a mass that is directly correlated with a lack of faith in the True Presence and at the same time subjects our resurrected Lord to that non-belief daily.
Kumbaya brother.
Wow, there's a crisis in the Church. I wonder how that happened. I wonder how we started losing vocations, and priests asking for laicization, and Catholics not knowing the basics of the faith. How did we get to the point where more Catholics don't believe in the true presence than those that do? The new mass is valid, but it was certainly a mistake.
@@oggiep3915 post hoc, ergo propter hoc fallacy. Why blame everything on VII? Why not blame it for the culture, for the secularization, leftist ideology etc.
During and after the Council of Trent many Catholics left the Church and joined the protestant reformation. Is that also the fault of the council that promulgated the TLM? Why accuse the VII reforms for not handling it well. When the TLM that was promulgated by Trent and the Pope have arguably failed even more than Vatican II? Doesn't seem very astute and logical to say something like that.
@@oggiep3915 I don't know how. I have some suspicion over what causes the theological and the liturgical crisis, but I cannot know for sure, that's an analysis way above my grade. Do you tho? There's also the possibility that you're just connecting dots as well, just as Chimps can do. There's a really large debate over the factors that caused past crisis that followed councils, imagine about an ongoing crisis. Some, like Benedict XVI suspected the cause of these happenings to be fault of the "Indifferentism" + latin juridicism applied to liturgical innovative theology, as well as the rupturist liberal hermeneutic strength after the council. There are many possible reasons why these things happen to us, some we know for sure that are not at fault. After all, believing that Rome proclaimed a Missal that is not a legitimate expression of the roman rite or that is legitimately harmful to the orthodoxy and orthopraxy of the Church is an ecclesiological absurdity, but you do know that, don't you?
What I find the most shocking in these TLM and NO conversations is that Catholics lay people seem to think they are part of or have some influence on the decisions of the Magisterium or the Pope. We don't get to vote for Bishop like the Episcopal's or other prods do. And it's unbelievable to me that Catholics who are really dedicated to attending TLM feel they can make broad generalizations and apply them to individuals. Sadly it goes beyond observation and into the side of judgment. Like here in this discussion group one poster says the NO mass is not reverent and the priest is not conducting the mass properly. When you consider what that really means is the host is not being concentrated. Then that same person says that people are walking all over the Lords body from all the crumbs that have fallen to the floor. You just can't have it both ways.
Please pause and look at what is being said, it's almost like Alex Jones is writing the script. This is not behavior that will lead to a well ordered life.
When the angels and demons are battling and an angel is defeated where does it go? How about the demons, when they lose where do they go? Does this become an infinite loop?
Very interesting question!
I love all the masses, I find myself mostly at the TLM bc I want to kneel and receive on the tongue and that's the only place I've found that I can do that without being "judged." I've even been refused communion for it at NO. If NO was accepting and encouraging of reverence to the Eucharist I'd be fine going there (and if save gas ha).
Whoooa... As someone who has attended Novus Ordo all my life (Where you gonna find TLM in the rural American South?), I would be shocked if a priest denied me communion for kneeling. And I'm in a very rural area with some of the Novus Ordo-iest Novus Ordo Masses in the whole Novus Ordo, with guitars and such during some parts of the Mass, and typically just me, one convert, and one Hispanic family are the only "kneelers" at communion, and there is no rail. Pretty much the only "traditional" thing at my church is that they do "Agnus Dei" and "Sanctus" and such during Lent and Advent. Just shocking that some priests would deny communion for that, especially since there is no canonical prohibition on it. I would call the bishop on that priest, even if you're not likely to go to that church again, just because he should definitely still be offering. Was it a Boomer priest?
@@gunsgalore7571 it was a boomer priest and he started yelling at me about COVID 19. This was about 3 months ago in the FREE STATE of NH!!!
As he held the body of Christ he's saying "Covid 19 blah blah blah" demanded I receive on the hand only. I was beyond shocked. I always just kneel on the floor if there is no rail or kneeler. I travel a lot and go to all kinds of masses but I always kneel and this is the first time I was denied!
@@KH-vp4ni Boomer priest... Yup, that's starting to make sense. And the issue was Covid? Now I'm pulling a 180, not surprised at all, as I have had priests, boomer and otherwise, make Covid statements before communion, demanding that everyone receive by hand. I complied, because though I prefer the tongue and kneeling as more reverent, I certainly wouldn't pass on the Eucharist when I don't have a mortal sin on my soul. But yeah having it come without warning like that, as if you were just "expected" to know you were supposed to get it on the hand, is just nuts.
@@gunsgalore7571 yeah no warning, I was very taken back especially three years into this. It's not lockdown...
The Vatican 2 documents explained :
Without understanding the following you will never be able to understand the documents. I will list here, what the documents consist of, by name and by title. But you will never find the list of these names inside the documents this is deliberate. For the purpose of concealment. But what you will find in every paragraph of every page the “definition” of the terms listed. Therefore the Vatican two documents consist of “definition” only:
1) Indifferentism
2) Syncretism and Synthesis
3) Immanent
4) Transcendentalism
5) Individualism
6) Existentialism, naturalism
7) Stoicism
8) Pantheism
9) Evolution
10) The Sciences such as historian sociology psychology critic…
If you look up Saint Pope Pius 10 Encyclical
“ Pascendi Dominici Gregis” you will find he new about Vatican 2 and wrote a detailed comprehensive explanation of Vatican 2, listing in detail more than half of the items above listed, and he even explains, in example, how it is meant to diminish Jesus Christ and the one true church and desecrate all seven sacraments and to leave the door open for more of modernism and Progressive changes in the future. He is not alone !!! Pius 10 on the Errors of Modernism, Pius 9 his Syllabus of Errors and Pope Gregory 16 in his Encyclical “Mirari Vos” see #19 on the waldensians,the Beghards,the Wycliffites, and all the popes condemned the documents of Vatican 2 and the Synod of Pistoia and warned the faithful with excommunication, anathema if you don't reject the Vatican two documents, and church, and embrace the one true traditional Catholic Church, the depository of faith, before the end of your life.
As you examine these terms and then read the Vatican two documents you can clearly see the “definition” of all the above listed terms, but not the terms themselves, and the evil,and that it is no longer Catholic but a new religion that will lead you straight to hell !!!
Then what are we to do you ask ?
If you are a true Traditional Catholic then you are supposed to do what the Blessed Virgin Mary told us to do in these evil times, that she described at Fatima, in the third Secret. Not the fake phony Third Secret that John Paul II falsified and Rewritten, along with the fake Lucia !!! But the real true Third Secret of Fatima. You are also to do what the Blessed Virgin Mary told us to do at La Salette, France and again at Our Lady of Good Success, who described in great detail what is to happen to the Catholic church at the end of the 20th century and she was 100% right !!!
What do we do then ? what did she say to
do ? She said to say the Traditional Rosary, not the rosary of John Paul II, the Traditional Rosary 15 decades everyday or 5 decades on Monday, 5 decades on Tuesday, and 5 decades, on Wednesday. Since the Mass is the greatest prayer of all !!! you get the Saint Andrews missile (and no other missile) but the St Andrews missile, and you say Mass every Sunday (you're not able to consecrate) but you can still say the prayers of the Mass !!! From only the Saint Andrew's missile. You can say the rosary, the Seven Sorrows of Mary, the Stations of the Cross, all at home. Have nothing to do with today's fake Catholic Church!!! NOTHING !!! This means all Vatican 2 priests and parishioners also the sspx,sspv,cmri,fssps… It will be a mortal sin and send you straight to hell. You say your prayers at home, you stay at home, and you say your prayers at home, the Traditional prayers of the church and you say them every day. You read the Bible the Catholic Bibleand no other since all other Bibles have been Rewritten with attacks againt Mary !!! and study the lives of the Saints of the church, and stay away from newly written or revised books on the market today !!! Don't buy any books on the market after 1960 !!!!
What about confession and all that ? You confess your sins to God the Father, Son and Holy Ghost using the prayers in the St Andrews missile, in the confessional which is in the back of the book, or you say one of the seven penitential Psalms along with the act of contrition. That's your confession, at home where you are safe both in body and soul !! For baptism you do the same at home with the proper, Matter, Form and Intent !!!
But whatever you do have nothing to do with the Vatican 2 Church even if it's empty do not go in it !!!
P.S.- the Most Holy Family Monastery is a good resource me and my colleagues have kept a close eye on them for over 20 years I highly recommend them.
God Love You
Joseph
If a Catholic in 600 AD attended a mass in 1952 - they would hardly notice a difference - they would know they were at a Catholic Mass. This is because the Church has always viewed the Mass with such reverence that changes were made same as a gardener would prune flowers in a garden- changes were done organically to prune the flowers 💐 n the garden to make the garden more beautiful!
If that same Catholic attended a Mass in 1974- or today - I don’t think they would even recognize that they were at a Catholic mass- because the mass was changed in such a drastic way - in a way unprecedented in Church history that it bears very little resemblance to what had preceded it - shocking to the senses - a rupture
Amen
It is very rare to find a reverent novus Ordo that lies the problem
Perhaps in bigger cities, but where I'm from, it's a fifty-fifty.
Therein lies the reality that the new mass isn't meant to be reverent. It's meant to be fun or something
Too true. During COVID, I saw a Novus Ordo Mass said in the vernacular (Spanish this case) and it looked like that solution everybody in the Church bickering over Liturgy is wanting. It was held Ad Orientem, most of the "optional" prayers remained, chants were sung instead of contemporary instruments, instead of Latin, Spanish was spoken instead. If all Novus Ordo masses looked like that, faithfulness in the Church would be no problem
@@Jkp1321 - therein lies the reality that most PRACTITIONERS of the new mass do not want it to be reverent. No contemporary practice today associated with the NO are actually called for at all, they're all inferences of permission.
Traditionalists should work also to make the Novus Ordo more traditional, as in it's strictest form, as done by the books, it resembles a vernacular translation of the Tridentine Mass
@@Jkp1321 i don't think you've ever attended a regular novus ordo Mass, but it is very obvious it wasn't designed around being "fun". Sure, some people try to add things that might make it seem more fun, but the core missal to the Mass does not give that impression at all. I've been attending the Novus Ordo most Sundays since I was born, and the only times they tried to make it "fun" was when I was a kid going to the school Mass.
Confusing times. The damage VII has done is self evident. The lack of basic understanding of the majority of those st a NO mass is terrible. Even catholic teachers don’t know that you should not receive the Eucharist when not in a state of Grace. It is a big issue. How big is the issue?
Our Novus Ordo is very pretty. Incense, propers- it's very nice.
The Orthodox are over here doing our Michael Jackson with popcorn GIF...
Yes.
Love what you say about the Masses. Good, reasonable man ❤
Here in Sydney, Australia, I have only ever had positive experiences with highly reverent, awe filled Novus Ordo masses (granted, my experience is very limited, having not been to too many parishes). Perhaps the liturgical abuse is very American? Or perhaps I have just been insulated from the worst of it down under.
Out of curiosity (I'm Canadian and have never been to Australia), in your experience, do the Novus Ordo masses there have Latin or is it mostly (or entirely) vernacular? Is there Gregorian chant? Does the priest celebrate ad orientem or versus populum? Do most people receive Communion on the hand or on the tongue? Is the church shaped like a long boat/box or like a semicircle/fan?
@@AustinoM My experience is *extremely* limited. (So take what I say with a grain of salt). That said, I have never heard Latin, but I have heard parts of the liturgy chanted on multiple occasions.
Probably definitely an American thing. I only grew up NO and had developed a great love for my faith through it and the V2 encouragement of laity participation. I’m one who finds meaning in helping and being active, so it was nourishing having opportunities to sit and move when needed.
It wasn’t until college that I met my current Catholic group that I realized things like TLM and other Rites. Good, faithful people, though sometimes I find our discussions about mass forms a bit… petty, I guess?
They go on and on about reverence and saying how V2 “messed up” the Church, but I just don’t see it. The parishes near me have always been active in church, the town/community, and the hospitality and friendship they extend to others is wonderful.
I just think people are too focused on THEIR preferences and needs to realize not everyone is the same spiritually. They like the Latin chants, back facing offerings, and long prayer silences. Whereas I prefer following along in my vernacular, observing the sanctuary, and having just enough time to pray before my mind wanders. A mix here and there is fine, but to say one is more “reverent” and thus more “valid” than another is when I smell Pride with them, which turns me off.
I think it is primarily an American and lesser an Anglo problem. We see the Church thriving in Africa with the NO adapted to their culture and I see the same thing in my Parish's Spanish mass. These masses have aspects that many English speaking Catholics would dislike such as guitars or drums, no silence, versus populum, EMHC. But they are also overflowing every Sunday, have loads of children and young families, veils and receiving on the tounge kneeling.
I think we are so polarized in the English speaking population politically and culturally that we can't come to an agreement on how we would all like to have the mass celebrated so the flexibility of the NO does not work for us in many Parishes and causes division over liturgical preferences. There are exceptions of course.
Very american. I dont see the problem here in the Philippines
I doubt you would ever find a cringe-worthy Eastern rite or TLM. That speaks volumes. To much focus on the priest and not Christ.
As a Byzantine Catholic, I have seen several cringeworthy Byzantine liturgies. There were many cringeworthy TLMs before the liturgical reform, too.
@@DF_UniatePapist It’s ultimately a problem in the hierarchy.
@@revelation1215 I might strengthen this and say it's a problem for each parish to overcome. My parish is moving towards more reverence and tradition. All it took was people asking for it.
@@DF_UniatePapist can you describe them?
Jimmy Akin could answer the Terminator question…
Adam and Eve did choose to deny the obedience to God in His presence. The demons disobeyed God in His presence. The people who saw Jezus face to face perform miracles crucified Him. So I agree with Trent that ultimately people choose hell themselves, no matter how crazy it sounds.
11:19 Trent, Jesus was calling Mary by her nature. He wasn't addressing her just as her son. Love your channel.
23:27 - Thanks for the video, Trent. I’m curious, to your mind where has the church most clearly condemned universalism?
That would likely be in the condemnation of Origen. The doctrine of Origen that all men and devils will eventually be saved was condemned by the early Church.
@@jareddembrun783 thank you!
I loved the Novus Ordo masses I went to in Boston 10-11 years ago. They were so reverent, the music was beautiful and traditional, and everyone was kind and faithful. I’ve been to some terrible N.O masses in Boston too, but I haven’t found the beauty in N.O ever since those times. Byzantine liturgy? All day. I want to formally join the church via the Byzantine side of things. Hopefully I get to skip RCIA which is…just ugh.
"spirit of reverence" exactly
I drive 4 hours every Sunday for the FSSP. If I need confession, I go local.
Trent Horn, have you ever considered getting a PhD ? If yes, which Institution would you go to?
Kidney donors should be first in line to receive kidneys donations themselves, all expenses paid. Good idea?
Nice @4:15 you might want to point out the selection was by lot and the two candidates were Justin whose name means Justice and Matthias whose name means Gift of God.
Matthias won
Fratelli tutti
para 15
The onus is on the Catholic to show what teaching authority the apostles had that //isn't// connected to their status as apostles. Because that's the authority that could legitimately be said to belong to a successor, who isn't an apostle.
Authority that flows from being the men hand-picked and taught directly by God, something not true of anyone else, that authority cannot belong to a successor.
The authority the apostles had is to "bind and loose" the rules of the church. In Mathew 16 Simon is proclaimed leader and in a later chapter, Jesus clarifies that they all have the "keys to the kingdom". Using such power, they appointed successors who also exercise that power. I know this is true, because the apostles's successors told me that Matthew's Gospel is a true account of what happened.
@@Joker22593 No no. We're trying to establish that authority in the first place.
"Authority that flows from being the men hand-picked and taught directly by God, something not true of anyone else, that authority cannot belong to a successor."
Matthias was chosen by the Twelve (not Jesus) to replace Judas. Paul, while directly called by God to spread the word, was one out of many to do so after the Resurrection. Yet he was one of the few to be called an apostle. All authority that was not from God himself, was from the Apostles. They could choose successors.
@@Cklert 1. If that example at least points to the principle of apostolic succession, who holds Judas' office today? 2. And would a successor of an apostle, not taught his theology directly by God (Paul claim he was in Galatians), have the same authority of the apostle he replaced? I feel you've skipped around that. Can a successor really claim to be speaking God's theology? The apostles authority in part derived from their being able to show they were sent by god through signs and wonders (Acts 5:12). Can the successors do this? If it was necessary for the apostles to show that they carried God's authority when teaching the vanilla gospel as per the Bible, how much more necessary is it to demonstrate the Catholic church has God's support when promulgating dogmas not taught in scripture or for a thousand years of church history?
We can put an attack on the Catholic argument formally into modus tollens. If p then q, not q, therefore not p.
--If the election of Matthias to replace Judas and occupy that same office demonstrates a fundamental and necessary organizing principle of God's church, then, if replacing Judas was worth it, minimally, the church must have maintained successors in the Judas / Mattias line.
--The church does not have, and never cared to have successors of Judas, Matthias
--Therefore replacing apostles is not a fundamental and necessary organizing principle of God's church.
You can only extrapolate successors of Peter from the example in Acts if that really is an example of apostolic succession and office-filling the church takes seriously. Then you can turn to Peter and say "here's the same principle". But how many Catholics give a damn about who occupies Judas seat now? How many Catholics really think "so this passage establishes apostolic succession, and that's why it didn't carry on for anyone by Peter". Remember, Catholicism tries to establish a principle of unending succession in part by pointing to an example of succession that did not continue.
--Yes, there are other churches that claim apostolic succession, Coptics for example, but that are not in communion with Rome. So apart from Peter, how many of the 12 apostles offices has the Catholic church kept filled? It's such an important thing! Look at Acts! How many are part of the One True Church?
I'm an atheist. Not a Protestant, not Orthodox, not Mormon. You don't need to pull me away from another faith I'm invested in. Just make a coherent case for Rome.
The Terminator is a movie.
Perhaps there is an answer to whether Terminator or Data would go to Heaven in whether they are in the image of God or not. I suppose that depends also on whether non-human, animal souls will go to Heaven. Being a Protestant, I don't really know any Catholic teaching on that issue. Would anyone care to inform me?
Not at the top of mu head, but might I recommend Jimmy Akin? He’s a Catholic apologist and convert who answers “weird” questions like this. If you look up “Jimmy Akin’s Mysterious World,” there are topics and questions he goes pretty in-depth on.
I’m more familiar with his idea on the Church baptizing or offering formation to aliens, but I know he’s discussed souls and androids/AI a few times.
@@jendoe9436 Horn and Akin are just about the only Catholic apologists I watch. Love their debates. I do watch Fradd and bishop Barron (sp?) sometimes too.
I love the Terminator movies! I love the TV series more but whatever. I think the question about their going to heaven hinges on whether or not God created them and if so, did he create them for himself? My recollection is that they were human creations gone awry and thus not creatures of God though I could be wrong about this. It's been a while since I watched the movies/tv series
Trent I’m just curious. Do you ever plan on responding to Dimond’s “rebuttals” to your response to his debate with Cassman
Trent has mentioned he doesn’t do rebuttals of rebuttals and would rather have a dialogue/debate if possible.
But it may not be easy with scheduling and sometimes the topic can be too broad or divisive that it may not be worth engaging. For example, it may be fruitless to talk about Marian dogmas if the person is avidly anti-Catholic and has demonstrated uncharity with the topic.
One of those pick and choose battles that Trent may not engage in so he can focus on matters that can be fruitful.
I am saddened to see that the mass is given differenet status (NO, TLM,this rite and that rite).. sounds like Jesus is bifurcated into all this, when actually he came to unite... i wish the church could have all rites called as the holy eucharist or holy mass.. not segregate into ordinary and extraordinary...
43:20 "I do lean libertarian in a lot of my philosophy". I do the same, but what would you respond to those catholic who claim that popes in their encyclicals have infallibly condemned liberalism AND its related doctrines such as democracy and freedom of speech and religious freedom. I know Benedict XVI has spoken in favour of religious freedom, but some would say that that doesn't matter because he hasn't invoked infallibility on that occasion.
how would you argue about the moral dilemma presented at the end of The Last of Us? (if you have watched the show, if not then pass)
Amazing how the only positive thing anyone can ever think of saying about the Novus Ordo is that it's valid. A priest could say the words of institution on a garbage dump and it would be valid.
“How’s your marriage?”
“Oh it’s wonderful. She cheats on me, I abuse her, and we hate each other, but it’s totally valid!”
I have been to many novus ordo Masses that are beautiful and reverent. Sorry, but I have.
The only positive thing you can say,don't forget that Jesus is on the altar and it is Him that you are disparaging.
@@chasnikisher7006 Behold everybody how the Novus Ordo even rots your brain along with your capacity for logical thought!
@@billyhw5492 Thank you, and may God bless you.
There is no reverent NO in my town in the Netherlands. We don't have a byzantine catholic church close by either. I feel pulled to Catholicism, and need to be validly baptised, but the SSPX is the only reverent mass nearby. I love the mass there but stopt attending because I feel conflicted about their status.
The state of the NO in me area in the world and the infighting about the SSPX makes it very hard for me to take the next step.
I understand the conflict. I used to be an SSPX attendee for seven years until I finally couldn't justify my attendance given what the Church says regarding them and their actions towards the Church.
The only consolation that I can give is that the Church is the Bride of Christ and that you will find grace within her bounds, even if sinful clergy or laity give scandal or of the liturgy is done poorly.
If you feel God is leading you toward the Church, then trust in his providence to provide for you, even if that means have to suffer through bad liturgies.
Prayers for you.
The SSPX is not in schism. It's not a regular order by status either, but they are not in schism. Read "SSPX, a defense" by Kennedy Hall.
@bumponalog5001 No, it's in schism.
A basic understanding of the definition of schism (Catechism 2089) can make that clear since Society Christians who refuse to commune with most Catholics in the world.
Also, Lefebvre's ordinations against papal mandate were a schismatic act for which he and those ordained were excommunicated.
@@bumponalog5001 I decided to call the fssp Parish that is just too far away for me to attend weekly. I did this a few days ago. The Priest was kind enough to tell me that my particular sspx Priest consults our Cardinal with every step he takes. He ensured me that all the sacraments are valid and approved by the Cardinal.
I'm getting ready for church in a few hours, so I'm really excited 🥳
Listening to online voices got too confusing. I prayed to God to please show me what to do, and within a day I was on the phone with the sspf Priest. God is good 🥰
Thank you so much for your comment!
The “Novus Ordo hypocrite” argument is so ridiculous. So Trent has to regularly attend the Novus Ordo in order to defend it? Why?
Natalie was way nicer to Monk
Had to laugh, thanks for this benign comment amid the liturgy firestorm
@@volusian95 hey man facts are facts! Trent is all about them! 😆
I think he got the names mixed up. Sharona was in the first two seasons and Natalie took over.
@@gregeichhold8562 yeah I'm sure and I'm just joking
If the Novus Ordo was simply re-crafted to follow what Vatican II actually mandated, then the English version would essentially become an English version of the Tridentine Mass and there would be very few or no problems with it. But the Novus Ordo as it currently exists and has existed for many years eliminated too many of the important elements of the Tridentine Mass and therein lies the tale.
Easy solution, so why hasn't it been done? A misplaced ecumenical rationale behind at least part of the Novus Ordo accounts for much of the blame.
Because we have a Pope who currently does not favor Traditional liturgies. There might be a reform in the near future, but it won't be during this Pontificate.
The parish I'm at is already doing great work to increase reverence and tradition in the mass. You just need to get involved at your parish and ask for what you want. I don't reccomend fighting upstream at a really out there place, but incremental changes are pretty easy at the average parish.
@@Joker22593 That is indeed a good thing at your parish, except the primary issue is not reverence but all of the teaching and other elements in the Tridentine Mass not found in the Novus Ordo. Increased reverence is about 1/4 of all that is needed to fulfill the directives of Vatican II and enhance the liturgy for the benefit of the people. Also, incrementalism will not work. In fact, it has already been tried and failed.
What is needed is a universal push to restore what was taken away, but given the current make-up of bishops and priests across the board, such does not seem very likely at this time, and tiny changes will also not be permitted or enjoy wide enough impact to make a meaningful difference. Already we do have a few parishes here and there that do a few nice things, but not nearly enough, and these parishes are not inspiring others to join them; so much for your incrementalism approach. As this is a universal problem, it needs universal solutions; not ineffective incrementalism.
Leadership is full of Judas’s who refuse to discipline wayward Priests. Poor management
I don’t understand why they replaced Judas, no one else after that. Why replace one and then stop?
Because there was one vacancy in the company of twelve of those whom Christ had chosen to be witnesses of His Life and Ministry, and to be His intimate friends, as compared with the larger body of His other followers. So only one witness to the Life of Christ needed to be chosen in order to fill the vacancy.
Jesus is timeless as in Hebrews, "Jesus Christ is the same yesterday and today and for ever." (Hebrews 13:8). But his human nature experiences the constraint of time, just as he has a human body and soul that are constrained to what humans can do, nonetheless as a whole Person Jesus is the Son of God, God.
Your analogy of hell to prison is incoherent. The aim of prison is rehabilitation, seperation from society and deterance. If the aim of prison was the torment of the imprisoned, then only morally disordered people would think prison is just. Hell as traditionally conceived is non-rehabilitative by design and has the primary aim of tormentous punishment and thus morally disordered as well. The traditional Catholic belief in hell is torturous punishment for the sake of punishment - - imagine being burned to death forever. We dont torture people for the sake of torturing them in prison and there is no way to make such a practice just, no matter the crime. Then we start combining this understanding with what constitutes a mortal sin - - leaving an abusive marriage and remarrying; disagreeing with a dogma (depending on which Catholic you ask - this list may be increadibly long); missing mass without cause; contraception; immoderate alcohol use; deprived a spouse sexual intimacy without just cause etc, etc. To think a wife who had a low sex drive should be endlessly tortured for unrepentantly refusing sex without just cause is insanity. The teaching on hell can only make sense when it is looked at in isolation of other Catholic teachings.
Now, one response is people are "quickened" after death. This perspective does not make any sense in relation to purgatory as that process should shed disordered attachement to sin. It is also not based on anything observable and experienced by us on earth, so it is really just conjecture to reconcile people to the idea of an evil idea (Eternal Conscious Torment). Then, you also say you are open to the idea that people will by neccesity keep sinning in hell - - this would be to deny free will in hell, so what remains of people in hell are not agents with a will - - so how could they be justly punished for additional sins at that point? The person in hell that you describe is much more equivalent to the insane person from your example.
"Really evil people recoil around goodness" - - but the population of hell, based on the majority position of Catholicism for 1500 years is that only a tiny fraction of people in hell would be "really evil people" by any definition you or I would use. Most people do not recoil around goodness - - does that mean they are destined to heaven?
How about this…if you love our Lord, it’s in union with the bishop in union with the Pope and gives us the body and blood of our Lord to a freshly confessed soul? Yeah it’s legit!
the important question would be is AI made in the image of God? are they fallen creatures with the initial sin? if not, what are they saved from exactly? So no, I don't believe AI can be saved
As many holy people have said in the past, The Mass is a place where heaven and Earth meet. It is the prerogative of God to give that grace and to be present in the Eucharist. We can only participate through faith and the calling of the Holy Spirit. The celebrant is not a magician and cannot conjure the body and blood of Christ. No matter what form is used, the Grace of God is the only factor. To assure the faithful, the Church is the custodian of the sacramental economy.
I never really liked the TLM I just prefer reverent NO
But if you say you don’t like the TLM you’re a liberal
No, you’re a liberal if you like an irreverent NO
I'm really really tired of the traditionalist movement in the church tbh, do those guys know that there are some entire countries on earth where there are not vetus ordo masses? I live in Costa Rica and here there are not vetus ordo masses, what should I do then become sedevacantist or something? This is why I stopped caring for "church politics" and "liturgy wars" a long long time ago when I discovered that all of this polemics are just bad for your soul.
I'd think courage still exists in heaven.
Here's a question: in heaven we'll have bodies in heaven and therefore hands.
If I accidently squeeze your hand too hard in heaven when shaking hands, would it not 'hurt' you a little?
Fauci says never shake hands. That would apply in heaven also.
I would love if we went to TLM exclusively. Too bad we have so many modernists in postiions of power that will be totally against that.
I wouldn't go that far. The NO is a valid form, but there's zero excuse for the restriction of the TLM, also a valid form. The two can coexist and people will inevitably vote with their feet.
When I was younger (before V-2), we had the TLM exclusively. Catholics knew the Catholic Faith better back then, for example: You would have to look far and wide to find a Catholic who actually believed Jesus is a human person.
@@sneed3529 I understand your point, I just don't think it was right to try and conform the Mass to the Culture back in Vat2..
@@sneed3529 the reason for the restriction is a fear of the faithful "voting with their feet."
@@bengoolie5197 I don't know if this is meant as irony but you know that this actually disproves your point right? Jesus, by merit of the Hypostatic Union, is both fully human and fully God, has two distinct intellects, natures and wills. So saying that "You would have to look far and wide to find a Catholic who actually believed Jesus is a human person." actually kind of counters this because it would be Heresy to claim that Jesus doesn't have a human nature and wasn't fully human in the Incarnation. I'm pretty sure from your comments that people back then DEFINITELY didn't know better.
Hi Trent, you accidentally mixed up Sharona and Natalie
I view the TLM the breeding ground of Sedevancantists and demonstrating people making the Mass an Idol.
no different than a protestant saying catholics worship mary not jesus, "trads worship mass not jesus" u r a b l o w h a r d
On the problem of evil, I don’t think it’s possible for God to have created completely free humans without the possibility of them choosing not to seek God, and abusing their freedom. Just saying “God can do anything” doesn’t make this paradox go away anymore than suggesting God can make a square circle, both completely round and with 4 even sides and 90 degree angles. It’s just a nonentity like a free human who can never sin when initially created.
Presuming you're Catholic, is Mary a non-entity then?
To me at least, I would have a tough time grasping that God would intend for us to sin by making us free which is what your conclusion seems to be. I think you're spot on in that we've always had the possibility to not seek God with our free will. But I don't believe being free and never sinning are logical impossibilities.
@@Cklert God never intended for us to sin, although I know some Calvinists will say otherwise.
Mary is unique case because if we believe she was given the singular grace of being guarded from sin with the same kind of higher moral intellect that we no longer have, she would have had a particular advantage over Adam and Eve; that being that while having no implicit desire to sin as they wouldn’t have had, she was in a world broken and suffering from the consequences of sin. Adam and Eve didn’t know what their disobedience would do. But Mary, with the knowledge of what sin truly is, and not having concupiscence, naturally did not sin, especially being uniquely guarded by the Holy Spirit in the singular grace to bear Jesus.
The Council Of Horn
The Novus Ordo is the least of the problems. The problem with Vatican II is it feminize the church and introduced bad practices such as Eucharistic ministries, etc. but they also brought in good practices such as the more ancient practice of receiving both kinds (receiving the body and blood eating and drinking).
I do not care for Eucharistic ministers. I refuse to get the Eucharist from anyone other than the Priest.
I also now have to explain to my daughter that she can’t be an alter girl because the church now uses them when girls can’t become priests
Both of these man made traditions should be jettisoned.
What are you talking about? You are claiming the Novus Ordo Liturgy is a result of a "feminized" Liturgy? What does that even mean? 😅😂
@@enshala6401 You have female altar girls, females Eucharistic ministries, female lay readers, female collecting the offerings, etc. Vatican II has allowed female laity to serve in areas which have been historically reserved for males only.
@Paul Ah, I see what you mean. I agree with you on many of these concerns. It seems like the best option for all is to have plenty of options for both the TLM and the Novus Ordo so parishioners can be provided with their spiritual needs. However, here is something to consider. Before I became Eastern Catholic, I was in the Western Church for a while. I've been a lector, a cantor, an extraordinary minister of the Eucharist, and a Director of Music Ministry, all because I was asked to do so when they needed me. What was I supposed to do, say no? I was even asked to perform a minor exorcism. Again, what was I supposed to do? Say no? How could I? All I did was say yes and stayed close to the religious and prayed 2 to 6 hours a day for over 2 years during this time when they needed me.... Then my service was complete, and somehow I knew it... and then God moved me 1500 miles away to a new chapter in my journey.
And that is just one story of the females who participate in these ministries. That said, we will never have female priests, and I hope you understand the difference. We take our Sacred Traditions very seriously.
Anyway... I still think that until you join the Church Jesus' gave us, you will be unfulfilled. I say this as a former Protestant of 30 years. Will keep you in my prayers.
@@P-el4zd before Vatican II there were no Eucharistic ministers. Vatican II went to absurd lengths in my opinion to include the laity. It’s laity run amok. It decreased reverence in these areas. The NO I attend through my daughters school at least does some music in Latin usually a song or 2 and sticks to traditional hymns. It’d be nice if they brought some Gregorian Chant back because even according to Vatican II that is THE standard for holy music
And yes the TLM should stick around but it is what it is I guess right now
Why is it the only nice thing i ever hear about the Novus Ordo is that its vaild, and on occasion you get reverent Priests eho say it reverently? What a low bar. How do we not see how big a problem that is? The Latin Mass does not allow for non-reverency by its rubric. The priest doesn't get to play performer amd change stuff. Thats the whole point. The Novus Ordo is objectively worse, its not a debate.
Define “reverent” in the context of a N.O. Mass?
I needed this video badly. Last night found a 2 hour long apologetic video on the history of the Traditional Latin Mass castigating the NO as an anti-church had me questioning my confirmation into the Church ... if you have the time to address it I feel it gives the same style of rhetoric as the Satan Loves Catholicism video you rebutted, this time with respect to the NO.
th-cam.com/video/gwBDY-WXeqY/w-d-xo.html
"The New Mass vs The Traditional Latin Mass"
Go to the Reason and Theology TH-cam channel run by Michael Lofton who has expertise on the Magisterium and answering objections from the Society of Saint Pius X (SSPX) and others who severely criticize/reject developments of Vatican II and its wake. For example, Watch his video titled "Is the Novus Ordo Inherently an Offense to God? SSPX Answers"
Epic post, Trent
Cool stuff
You mixed up Natalie and Sharona! 😂
Yup, he got the names swapped around. lol Personally I liked Sharona more, mainly because she stood up more for Monk and his disabilities in front of others versus Natalie who made up excuses about his disabilities. Also Sharona's character and her background was way more interesting than Natalie's posh upbringing. Natalie was just "nice" with no goals and didn't add much to the show.
Ha! I need my own Natalie to keep my head on straight
@@TheCounselofTrent :)
A lot of very schismatic sounding comments on this video. If this is what adherents to the missal of 1962 are about then no thanks.
Not all are, but unfortunately there is a sizable contingent of people who have embraced varying degrees of SSPX or Sedevacantist arguments and just mimick them in the comments.
There are a lot of Catholics who love the Roman Rite of 62 who are totally faithful to the Church.
I'm surprised that Trent regularly attends the Byzantine liturgy despite being a member of the Latin Rite and thus living within the parish boundaries of his nearby Latin Rite parish. My understanding is that, while the Church permits Catholics to attend any valid mass, it is encouraged and preferred that they be involved with their local parish of the Rite to which they belong.
Recently, I've grown increasingly more saddened by the seeming complete lack of interest that most Latin Rite parishes in my area (Ontario, Canada) have in celebrating the Novus Ordo as Sacrosanctum Concilium envisions it. No Latin, no Gregorian chant, no mass ad orientem, etc. I am within reasonable driving distance of a mass that celebrates the extraordinary form, which I find much more in line with the mind of the Church, since the way the Novus Ordo is celebrated in most parishes I've been to is - to me - obviously not in line with what the Church intends, specifically regarding the Vat II Fathers. But, since the Novus Ordo is certainly valid, and since I am a member of the Latin Rite and within the parish boundaries of a Latin Rite parish that celebrates the Novus Ordo just a few minutes from my house, I attend that mass because I think that's the proper thing to do.
I don't see how we're supposed to reform the Novus Ordo liturgy to bring it more in line with the mind of the Church if people like me (and Trent) keep leaving and going to other parishes outside our parish boundaries.
The Novus Ordo doesn't need to be reformed. It needs a coffin.
Ironic, I live in Ontario and attend a Novus Ordo mass that also celebrates Latin Mass. I also do not go to my local parish and drive 25mins further to attend.
It's done much more in line with traditional mentality vs my local parish.
I imagine It's not up to the laymen to determine how the priest should celebrate.
@@TheRealDealDominic it's more of a market decision. The big young faithful families gravitate to reverent masses, so the 1970s timelocked NO parishes have an expiration date if they don't offer a TLM. This is a big reason "divison" is being attacked by Traditiones Custodes
I am also from Ontario and I agree with you.
@@Christofascist_Hup Have you ever attended a NO Mass that is celebrated as intended by the Council? I have belonged to at least three parishes with reverent, uplifting NO Masses in Cambridge MA, in St.Paul, MN and in Palo Alto, CA. I converted to the Roman Catholic church 45 years ago this Easter after attending a NO Mass on Holy Thursday. Later I also attended several TLM Masses in many different locations and , frankly, if that was the only Liturgy available I most likely would have become Orthodox instead of Catholic. Guess what, there are liturgical abuses at TLM Masses, too! I have sung at a Gregorian Chant NO Mass for 20 years, and finally in my new location there is a nearby Ordinariate of the Chair of Saint Peter Parish, so I get to experience beautiful, solemn Liturgy and music in elegant, uplifting English! What a blessing!
Trent: The NO can be done reverently.
Also Trent: Why yes, it just so happens that I don't attend the NO.
Why don't you attend the NO, Trent?
Because there isn't a NO that is done reverently nearby? I am lucky enough to know of the parishes that do the NO reverently in my area and do attend them along with the local TLM.
He said he attends the NO when he can't attend his Byzantine parish even though a TLM is available.
I do attend the novus ordo. I don't regularly attend the novus ordo for the same reason I don't regularly attend TLM, Anglican Ordinariate, or Maronite (all of which are options where I live): the reason is that I have a particularly affinity for the Byzantine Divine Liturgy. Also, I don't expect others to share this affinity since I invite people to attend though I notice most people won't prefer it, which is fine. To each his own.
What's wrong with preference?
I know people who attend a specific church because they prefer a specific priest that isn't their closest. Is that wrong / does it disprove Catholicism?
@@TheCounselofTrent "To each his own" I agree. I take it then you are against TC then? I'm not familiar with your position on it and would love to hear it given your work. I just think that those with an affinity for the TLM should be able to attend, personally.
How do you find out the heresies in sermons/doctrines/traditions/rituals if not alone by the Bible?
I've been trying to get the answer but don't find satisfactory answers.
Why are there so many protestant Churches who disagree on doctrines and even Dogma amongst each other when all of them use the Bible alone?
@@t_ogaming4881 that is not an honest answer.
@@docverit2668 Think deep. How would you find out the heresies in the sermons/doctrines/traditions/rituals if not by the Bible alone?
I've tried 'catholic answers' before. They have pre existing questions and answers. Not satisfactory.
And why do you ignore what the apostles wrote for us?
@@Theunspokentruth77 again not through scripture alone.
Again Gnostics would’ve loved it if Irenaeus came at them with “scripture alone “
@@Theunspokentruth77 "think deep" as if this hasn't been debated and responded to for years by the deepest thinkers on the planet. But hey, just because you say so, they are all going to fall down and worship your thoughts on the topic. We all know how deep a thinker you are. Your credentials are impeccable. oh wait, who are you? 🙏🙏
Determinator.
I’m a convert, and the pompous attitude from the TLM crowd can be off putting. One of the reasons I came to Catholicism and not Orthodoxy was for unity! They must have no idea how bad the Protestant churches are right now or they would be moved with compassion for how much people need the Catholic faith. They’re offended by lay readers and pianos and circular architecture? Good grief. Don’t be a whitewashed tomb.
"They must have no idea how bad the Protestant churches"
Ironic you saying this given that our current hierarchy and pontiff will use any opportunity to praise Protestants and shower them with unending lauds while they bash the big mean Trads. Looks like you need to get with the script. Prots are actually good! Francis is on record saying Anglicans don't need to convert.
Have u seen the Pew Research?
@@Joan-rt1gm On what?
Since there are people in the comments who think a reverent NO is very rare I will share two that I know.
Our lady of Peace in Santa Clara California done by the IVE priests(institute of the incarnate word) and St Lawrence the martyr in North Highlands CA weekday and 10am sunday mass done by the PES priests(Pro Ecclesia Sancta).
From my limited experience, it seems N.O. mass done by priests from religious orders tend to be more reverent than masses done by diocesan priests.
The only other one I can think of is the founder of Ignatius press Fr. Joseph Fessio SJ a Jesuit. I had the honor of attending a retreat with him as the resident Chaplin and he gave a talk about how since Vatican II he decided to go with as much Latin as possible in his mass since they gave him the freedom to do what he wants with his masses(im obviously paraphrasing what he said since it was a long homily) and when he could he would do it ad orientem which was awesome. Now you would think that he was just doing the TLM low mass but he said he was doing the N.O mass but with all the optional parts of the mass being filled with Latin as well as the readings and facing ad orientem. At that point it was just hard to to tell the Fr. Fessio's mass apart from a mass from the FSSP! He even cut out "let us offer the sign of peace"😂.
That just proves there are some pretty awesome Jesuits out there!
Yes, all 3 of them.
The TLM is overrated.
Probably. The Novus Ordo certainly isn't underrated though.
@@Christofascist_Hup that is true.
Have u seen the Pew Research?
@Mthf because I have been to a few. Quiet. Unfollowable. People continually fumbling through duotangs pretending to know what is going on. People standing, sitting, and kneeling at separate times. Mumbling a bit of Latin here and there out of sync with other people (not like they know what the Latin means anyway). After one TLM I attended, I spoke with priest after mass. Even he admitted to me that even he doesn't understand the Latin. Which is why TC Art. 3. 4. is a very good idea: to appoint a priest who...possess a knowledge of the Latin language sufficient for a thorough comprehension of the rubrics and liturgical texts.
Most people who attend TLMs on a regular basis seem to do so as a protest against contemporary bs , which is understandable, but pretending that the TLM is the solution to all of the churches, and, for that matter, all of societies problems is just fanciful.
Moreover, what is of greater concern to you: the rubrics or the style and manner of the celebration?
@@Joan-rt1gm just because something is popular or gaining in popularity does not mean that it is not overrated.
Arent you canonically obligated to attend your geographical parish when possible?
One’s domicile is the parish’s the territory within which you live. The Code of Canon Law doesn’t specifically bind anybody to attend Mass therein. But, a lot of TLMs would be considered “personal parishes” as opposed to geographical ones. Nothing wrong with attending Mass with such communities.
@@flamesfan1417 oh, thanks for the clarification, i was under the impression you needed permission to attend a non territorial parish
@@flamesfan1417 I would like to know more about domiciles and personal parishes. I have 3 within a mile of my house. Where can I learn about this?
Short answer: There is no obligation to attend the parish in which your domicile is located.
Long answer:
Every parish has geographical boundaries. But, you are under *no obligation* to attend the parish in whose boundaries you reside.
A Catholic is free to attend *any* parish for Mass, confessions, etc. on any given day/week.
You are also free to become a "member" of that parish, if they have some form of registration and they are not concerned with where you live. Most parishes operate this way.
*Why do parish boundaries exist?*
If you are seeking to get married, have a funeral, or some other pastoral care, the canon law regarding parish boundaries identifies which parish is *canonically obligated to provide to you* those pastoral services.
It is common for parishes to offer such pastoral care to any Catholic who requests it (even though they are not strictly obliged to) especially if the person has made a connection with the parish over time.
In the Code of Canon Law of 1917, the wording about the obligation to attend Mass made a reference to the parish whose boundaries you resided in. So back then, even though there was not a strict obligation to attend Sunday Mass at that parish, there was at least an expectation/understanding that you would.
The Code of Canon Law of 1983 revised that and made it clear that there is no such obligation.
No. We aren’t Mormon
If we can’t all agree on the nuanced positions of NO vs TLM- can we all agree that Joe Biden isn’t a Catholic? Lol
No, he’s a “good Catholic”__ pope Francis.
@@Crusader33ad it’s only the traditionalists who aren’t good Catholics
No, you're not a hypocrite. You're just doing what Vatican 2 teaches and the disastrous results of it, which highly embraces modernism. Typical "apologist". Same goes with the so called "bishops" and "priests" of our time.