Trope Talk - 3 Character Cliches in YA Women
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 11 ก.ค. 2024
- These three tropes (plus two honourable mentions) are things that I'm so tired of seeing in young adult stories, especially in sci-fi, fantasy, action/adventure, and dystopian. I love seeing more women characters, but these tropes need to go.
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"Oh, I'm so ugly, my eyes are too big and my cheekbones too high, oh woe is me!"
my body is TOO perfect! and the fact i cant get dirty is soooooo troublesome!
So basically an anime character.
@@Phanto5692 You must've watched some shity anime then.
"Oh, i look like a top model with great body and great face, i love eating and don't have to worry about my weight even though i don't exercise, BUT I FEEL UGLY EVERYTIME I LOOK IN THE MIRROR OH POOR ME"
My lips are too full my nose is too tiny my skin is too pale
I wanted to share my opinion on the "mean girl" trope, the character who exist to cause discord between main character & love interest. When you said "she's usually very beautiful" the thing is, it's not just that she's beautiful, she *knows* she's beautiful.
So, ya know how Bella Swan is gorgeous, but always describes herself as plain? Authors treat this lack of self-worth or self esteem as a desirable trait. When a female character has high self esteem she's portrayed as stuck-up, vain, or mean.
And I find that particular trend in writing to be very upsetting :(
Arielle Duncan Thank you!! That is a great point.
Well, there IS a huge difference between being self confident/knowing you're beautiful and being stuck up. Knowing you're beautiful is great, but acting like the Plastics in Mean Girls is not. I agree though that there should be more female characters who are happy with the way they look without being bitchy about it.
So does a One Direction Song. And A Bruno Mars song I think. It's bad to teach that to young girls and I have to wonder if its being done maliciously.
Whoa, you just blew a part of my mind right there. Not my whole mind, because I think I knew this implicitly, but a part of it. So true--we need more female characters with high self esteem.
Me too.
To be fair, Bella *was* actually plain and boring: even the description of her character was lackluster.
preach
Its pointing out at the irony
Leo's Thighs And yet, every guy wanted her. And the main vampire love interest was willing to risk exposure and death for her. And the shapeshifter as well.
Also, adding on to the virgin, when it comes out that a character's still a virgin and everyone else begins teasing her/him for it. Like, why is that a bad thing? Why is it so shameful in media to value your body enough to only want to share it with someone important? Or to be scared?
I mean, this happens a lot in reality. I remember being 14 and people were teasing me because I had never been kissed... Actually, I was teased so much I ended up kissing a random boy I met at a party and it was so bad it took me 3 years to kiss someone again after that... I know it's not the same as in the whole being a virgin thing, but this is an example of how people can be assholes
“To value your body enough to only want to share it with someone important” just because someone sleeps with who they like doesn’t mean they have low self-esteem. Sure, that could happen, but it’s not always the case. A thing I see a lot in books, specifically YA books from Wattpad where the main character is female (yes, I go there to try to find good ones because it’s free) is that the mc is very shy about her body and face, and there’s an “adversary” who is another girl who seems to have high self esteem about that. This “adversary” pursues the mc’s love interest no matter the cost, and is also dismissed as a “slut”. The author then pretends all of this is due to low-self esteem and they punish her for it. Look, I have no problem with a character getting punished for relentlessly pursuing someone who is clearly not interested, the issue is just that the author wants that to be tied together with sleeping with lots of people and wearing revealing clothes. Not liking your face/body and choosing to “hide” it is being celebrated while being insecure and sleeping with lots of people is being treated as a terrible thing. Why, if the two stem from the same problem? And no, I don’t think that not sleeping with people is necessarily shamed by the media. More like half and half. If you’re a virgin, you’re a prude, if you sleep around a little too much, you’re a slut.
Amen. My thoughts exactly. Well, my reasons are "religious/spiritual", so not exactly the same. However, same concept. Besides, STD/I's are on the rise, not to mention UNWANTED pregnancies. "Virgin shaming" is bs. And, if anyone does that to me, or a friend of mine, they will be getting a piece of my mind. Even if, they happen to be a teenager, and I'm almost thirty years old.
Or even to just not be interested!
Oh my God, finally said it. This generation is very messed up, I met a dude online who kept bragging about having sex, he said he was just 14. And I pointed out that his convo was going against a rule, and he said "Imagine following rules like a virgin" man, I cringed so much
One of your last tropes about "the virgin" reminds me a lot about the "born sexy yesterday" trope, you can go on TH-cam for that video. Because honestly that trope makes me so upset. Like yes some people do not know things about sexual topics but a lot of people know things about certain sexual topics. And it makes me even more frustrated when the virgin is seen as the most desirable for a male protagonist because she's never done anything sexual in her life and is inexperienced and is treated like a 4 yr old but its fine to put sexual advances on her because she has the body of a woman. It just puts me off immensely because there just something so,,,,predatory about it.
Leera Calaunan i feel the exact same way honestly... it almost feels like pedophilia to me in a way, with the innocence of such a young child being thirsted after by a grown man. it’s just creepy.
If a guy did that to me I'm calling the cops.
I have a friend like this, she is a virgin (quite obviously) and give that ideia of innocence and cuteness but, in the same time, she is super flirtatious (mostly unaware), all the guys have immediately crushes on her!
I have a male friend that he told me he likes her but don't see her sexually, I told him thay is a problem because he don't see her as a full human being and also because romantic love between adults involve sexual desire!
Joana M That's...not a problem. Or was that satire?
Hate to break it to all of you, girls, but a lot of men do desire virgins. They also look down on sluts but use them anyway for their sexual pleasure.
I'd have to disagree a little bit about Katnis. She wasn't as strong as she was in the first book, after the initial first hunger games, because she was so jacked up mentally from all the horrific stuff she had to go through. I think she gave up hope here and there and wasn't as mentally stable in the sequels.
Kat Tanaciev Yeah, I think so too.
And the thing is that she was very realistic, like, she never really healed. But that's not what people want... People want their happy ending...
Katniss's problem wasn't that she was traumatized, it was that she lost all drive and action. She became a passive character that the story happened to rather than being an active character that drove the story. She became a character that wallowed in her self-pity, rather than fighting it. And while her reaction may be 'realistic', it doesn't make for a very good read or an interesting character.
As a reader, I didn't really care if Katniss got a happy ending (she didn't); I care if the character can carry the story and give us a satisfying ending (it wasn't).
Myxinaut IX Maybe it would have been a more driving story if we had gotten to see it from another character's point of view? I don't know, I'm just thinking.
Kat Tanaciev thank you someone agrees with me
Exactly, Katniss seemed to be a passive character. I havnt read the books but in the movie her only active action was volunteering to save her little sister. She didn't actively try to survive in any meaningful way. Everyone else took care of some aspect and she was just sort of a figurehead that they needed to keep alive... and that the author had to put into the action because she was the point of view character. This seems to be a common pitfall of YA females (not that I'm that well read on them) and also tv/movies
"I'm so plain and boring." Hey, credit where credit is due; if your biggest concern in your life is that people may think you're boring, then you are probably quite boring.
Lizzy Chrome haha true
Books and movies tend to use this trope to make the girl seem more "humble" compared to the "mean girls" of the story, thus seemingly making them more desirable But in real life, people who put themselves down like that actually do so as a subtle means of getting attention. It's called covert narcissism, and here's a heads up girls: Guys don't find that attractive. Guys like girls who are confident and comfortable in their own skin. But if you go into a relationship looking to the guy to constantly be your emotional and moral support, the relationship will become strained and one-sided. In other words, it becomes pure selfishness.
Lauren Brown preach thank you for this:)
I never once saw Katniss as weak, ever. Even if she was being saved, Katniss was also saving her friends too. Give and take.
(Spoilers for second hungergames book)
I disagree with using Katniss as an example for a damsel in distress. She is saved so often in the second book because - she has to survive- as you said - her survival is crucial for the rebellion to succeed - and also, it's planned that she dies in the arena, which has her being attacked allot, and it is planned that people save her (because of all those attacks). She is basically placed into other peoples hands who's duty is to save her - it would also be unrealistic if she managed to fight off ridiculously intense threats all by herself. Yes, she is badass, yes she is strong, but even she can't fight like a superhero - she's still just a girl from district 12 who happens to be able to use a bow.
Carlotta TheFriendlyPerson Mary Sue !
And she also accomplished and stood up for herself a lot in the second book, she saved Gale, she keeps providing for her family, and fought and killed several people in the arena
Mark Edelegn She is painted as selfish, stubborn and manipulative. How is she a Mary Sue?
USDutchkitty 84 yeah I was totally thinking that, like she was so messed up emotionally, anyone would need help if they were like that
Female caracters are forbidden to be save by men? I know she didn’t mean it but use Katniss as exemple it is what I get. She salve more people than be saved, and they are in a war context. I don’t think she belong in the chose one trope either, every hability she have she learned and conquered it.
Writing female characters in general is hard. If they're feminine they're accused of weakness and being boring damsels, but if they're masculine they're accused of being "strong independent womanz" where that's their only defining cookie-cutter trait.
I agree that right now, writing women is harder than writing men because of the politics of the times, but I don't agree that "feminine" women are always boring or weak, or that the opposite is true. I think if characters are ONLY "feminine" then that's probably the case. Strengths and weaknesses should be a part of every character, so if a woman is not physically strong, she should have other merits, talents, hobbies, skills, etc. as well as other weaknesses. The same goes for physically strong women.
the problem people have with writing women is that people try to make them either super useless or super strong and perfect, instead of trying to write them as human beings
True!
I think the problem is that people try too hard. They're trying to make the perfect woman/girl when there is no such thing. I recommend people start looking through history there are plenty of very real and very interesting female figures.
Or why not just write them as both- like a well rounded human
Before coming to the obvious realization that YA meant "Young Adult" I though it was just ya, like yeah with an accent.
"Trope Talk - 3 Character Cliches in YA Women"
Imagine.
Maariana Foote haha oh my gosh that's too good. I never want to unsee that.
XD
Ever read anything by Walter (pron. Valter) Moers? For context, the best way to describe him would be "The German Terry Pratchett".
That happened to me except I read ya as in you and found it so weird 😂
I thought it meant "Your" lol
"What's a butt plug?" _Anastasia Steele, English major of 50SoG.
once a 24 yo lady in a hospital said that to my sister.........
It seems pretty self explanatory to me I dunno why she was confused
I think if everyone share the same pet peeves (I have heard a lot of booktubers with the same peeves what) about YA fiction then it should be taken as a call for authors to fix it.
Agreed! In my own writing I do my best to stay away from those wretched tropes that YA currently seems to be stuck with. Thanks so much for the comment :)
@@JordanHarveybooks It's okay if you use tropes. Just try to do something good with them. Or at least try to make them seem more interesting and...... actually good.
Personally I don't think any trope it bad. It's mostly the executions I have a problem with. As I believe that even the worst of tropes, like the love triangle, can be done right. I mean, look at regular show. It had a love triangle as a plot, and it somehow made it seem interesting.
I find there is a similar issue with the men in YA novels, a lot of the guys have really messed up versions of masculinity. I have yet to meet a guy who likes girls who are weak or inoffensive in some way, and a lot of these authors seem to confuse vanity with self-confidence. Also I see a lot of guys who seem to be portrayed as incompetent simply so that the girls can be seen as amazingly strong or smart, which these authors don't seem to understand doesn't make their female characters look competent, it just makes the guys look stupid.
Frankly it's not just authors, a lot of women seem to have really weird ideas of what men are like, and I think it is actually kinda unhealthy to foist these images of guys on young women.
@@noonebossesthegarnet2890 I mean giving hugs and being affectionate aren't necessarily feminine characteristics. Nor does being feminine automatically mean gay or cross-dressing, I've met a fair number of gay men who I would say are probably more masculine then me, and likewise a good number of straight number who are considerably less masculine than me.
If you can right a feminine man in such a way that it comes off as believable then kudos to you, though like the so called 'man with tits' trope, it might be important to take into account the potential problem of a feminine man becoming a 'woman without tits', well unless that's what you're going for.
Mr Roberts I see, I’m still looking over everything to make sure nothing is offensive. Thanks for telling me this.
when u mentioned the mean girl i immediately thought of sharpay from hsm. i love those movies but she literally is that
kaitlynn pearson and she's probably one of the more tolerable ones. X_x
Iconic
But she’s a queen and deserves to be loved. 😪
What HSM SHOULD get credit for however is that she actually grows to be a decent human being, later in the series. Not a lot of Mean Girl Characters can claim that much. One of my favorite part of the movies was Ryan - how he was supposed to be the Yang to her Yin, but clearly could NOT. He loved her, WANTED them to be an inseparable duo, but he couldn't, and I liked that. They could have done so much with Sharpay, too on her journey as she changed, but the movies weren't meant to be deep, so whatever.
Aiyaluna Yourke Right.....trying to sabotage the musical because she felt she deserved it more, is mean. But okay.... go ahead and excuse bad actions. I love her character but noooooooo.
I'm sooo tired of the mean girl trope. I think Chloe from Miraculous was the one that broke me. You want her to be an antgonist, fine, but at least give her some other traits than just mean for the sake of mean. It's just so lazy and over done.
I think one show that did this trope right was Lauren from Faking It. She was spoiled, bratty, and popular and hated how inclusive the school was, yet she still came off as human. She even had, gasp, empathy for her step sis when her heart was broken.
But mainly what I like was even after they revealed that she was interesex/ tragic backstory, and even when she starts befriending the protags,she still had her bossy take charge attitude and didn't turn into a nice and completely different person overnight.
AnnaStones But Miraculous is suppose to be for kids, that why Chole is so undimensial, I guess.
She's getting better now at least
It feels weird rooting for the rival over the protagonist in love quarrels, especially in the chance that the love interest is better off with said rival than the Mc.
DAMN I never found someone with the SAME profile pic that me :D
I mean, I love a good love triangle sometimes. But it's always hilarious when you're supposed to hate somebody who is mad that her boyfriend dumped her for the protagonist. Like, who wouldn't be mad if their lover dumped them and immediately jumps into a serious relationship with some other girl? Why is that a sign of a bad person?
Once I wanted the rival to get out of the relationship because of how unhealthy it was, he was constantly trying to get the Girl's aproval as in "See? I'm just as good as the Main Guy!" While the Main Guy was at home moping because he fucked his chance with The Girl but the Rival was his friend so he wasn't going to mess it up intentionally.
Extra point to the damsel in distress trope that's common in action movies: when you have a badass sexy female who is suddenly helpless in the climax so the hero can save her. Sometimes it's a dire situation that couldn't be helped, sometimes she's just mildly restrained by the villain.
Have you heard of Overly Sarcastic Productions ? give them a gander
DIAbycmgm so I finally got around to checking them out and I've now watched almost all Red's vids. Thank you so much for the recommendation!
I was actually just about to bring her up because she recently did a really good video on the Damsel in Distress trope and how it's misused as well as how it can be used correctly to further a story. Definitely a great channel worth checking out and one of my favorites to look into for writing advice.
What a coincidence. I just came from her channel.
Well I feel comfortable knowing that none of my female characters fall into these categories. Just write them as people. It's pretty simple.
You'd think! Seems like people are having a hard time with that though.
The thing that I do to avoid that is by basing my character's personalities on real people- be it someone I know in person or someone I watch on youtube
The damsel in distress trope can work if her character actually evolves and grows throughout the story
I don't much care for the girls in love triangles that cant choose the guy they want to be with. Or WORSE when they do know but are stringing the other guy along anyway.
Gosh, I hate love triangles
The only two love triangles I have enjoyed reading are The Infernal Devices and Young Elites. I entirely agree with what you said. A badly done love triangle is catastrophic.
Katniss pisses me off because her dying would actually empower the rebellion more, nothing empowers a resistance as much as a martyr, ffs!
Scurvy Dan haha true
Another trope I do not like so much is the cookie cutter strong female character. Rey from Star Wars is an example of this. She’s powerful, yes, but there seems to be little to no flaws in her personality and in what she does in the story. I want this woman to make mistakes, to learn from them, I want her to be unafraid get hurt once in a while, and I don’t want all of her plans to go perfect and as planned all of the time! Don’t get me wrong, I still love Rey as a character, but her and many characters just like her are so perfect it’s annoying! What do you guys think?
Definitely. I actually did a video on strong female characters and I look at Rey in that if you want to check it out!
Piper • even Luke had flaws and struggled.
Piper • I kind of wish she turned villain to subvert this Mary Sue trope...haha. I wish even at times where she gets a little more naive like Luke was in the original trilogy where she doesn't always make the best decisions from her actions.
Piper • It is the Mary Sue trope, an resource overuse that why we don’t like. Seems a cheap writing skill.
Agreed. I can't even dislike her because there isnt enough human fraility or courage for her to have a personality to be liked or disliked. They fell into the "powerful woman = perfect in all ways" trap. They should have remembered Leia and why she is so amazing. Strong, stubborn, willful, determined, exacting but tender, loving, loyal, and afraid. Depth is what I want from female characters, because that is what we are: whole people. Driven by more than one emotion and living in that contradictory storm. Ah, well. Maybe once we finally realize men and women are different but still equal this nonsense will be put to rest and we can leave the stereotypes for the cheap romances and mysteries lol
I’m just gonna say, I don’t agree with you on Katniss being a damsel in distress. The difference between her and Bella is that Katniss actually keeps doing shit and doesn’t just lay on her ass all day waiting for Peeta or Gale to save her. Yes, they do protect her, but compare what she did when Peeta was captured compared to Bella’s reaction when Edward broke up with her. Yes, Peeta’s capture traumatized her for a long time, but she got back up and managed to keep trying to save Panem. As opposed to Bella who went into a...what was it-4 month depression just because Edward wanted to end things with her. Katniss was always pushing through the pain, even in times where we saw she clearly didn’t want to. And I think it’s offensive to even try to compare her to Bella, who is less of a damsel in distress and more of some warped up Mary Sue.
Great video!
You mentioned how the Virgin TM is naive and childish, and I want to add something to that which also drives me insane: when they make her ignorant about sexual stuff. A girl or a guy could have never had sex because they haven't gotten the chance to, or haven't found someone they're comfortable enough with, or simply don't want to, but also know their shit from curiosity, research, as well as PROPER sex education.
Also, the wasted potential in the Strong Female Character TM is a shame. They could make her emotional detachment (or just social awkwardness if they want to make it more original) a weakness she has to deal with when sheer physical strength doesn't help her and she needs to try working on her emotional shit, but instead they use it in a way that makes her seem strong BECAUSE she's "not emotional". *internal screaming*
I know this is a two year old comment, but I just finished rereading Graceling and I found they did a really good job doing just this with the main character. She's overwhelmingly powerful, but its really well balanced and she acts like a real person who grew up being feared and who is new to friendship from people who don't know her, but she has morals and opinions and fears and she struggles with her emotions and the book is just a beautiful rendition of the strong female character trope on top of the good story taking place around it.
I know outlander is not YA but claire is a perfect example of diferent type of strong female character she is not physically strong but she is smart and used her instinct to overcome situations(even when jamie is saving her a lot)
She holds her own at times too 🙂
I gotta disagree with the katniss bit...
There's a clear difference in the second and third books. The capitol has made her their number one target, and they are coming after her specifically, so it makes sense that everyone is rallying to protect her. The rebellion has also put limitations on her, to protect her, and to some degree aren't allowing her to stand up and protect herself.
That being said, I still think Katniss is super badass and awesome on the later books. It's a team effort though, because she has a team now. She's not all on her own, so she has people watching her back, and she's watching their back in return. She's not a damsel in distress, she's just part of a team.
I agree with the "weak girl" being saved all the time thing! I absolutely HATE it! When I wrote my main character, I wanted her to be strong, independent and not need a guy to be there all the time! I had to put her in a situation where she had to get help because I can't write an invincible girl, it's not realistic, but mainly she HAS to figure things herself! :D
Personally I think being independant doesn't mean that you never need help anyway. It's important for girls who read these books to acknowledge that there's no shame in asking for or getting help and that they don't have to deal with everything on their own. Of course the female characters shouldn't have to need help ALL THE TIME, but I think we shouldn't feel ashamed or avoid or trying to justify writing about girls who need to be saved.
I honestly wouldn't mind if the ,,strong female", ,, the girl next door etc. Was used once or just a few times, the problem is that it has appeared in so many books that you can almost guess what the character will do next
Sofie Siebertova yeah exactly! That’s how they’ve become clichés.
Both my lead male and female are Virgins, they end up together and marrying, I write it that way because it's what I know, I don't know what it's like. I don't write sex scenes, I only imply they do it on their wedding night and obviously that they go on to have children come the end of the story in the epilogue , as it pretty much would go without saying they would. I've written it that they wait until marriage as it's something I value. Secondary characters behave differently, but as they're secondary I don't put as much focus on their way around relationships. Plus I make the main romance an interdependent one,
I am thinking of writing under 2 pen names as I do two genres (fantasy with romance and historical romance, mostly regency)
I'm so glad you mentioned Rey from Star Wars, she's the whole reason why I didn't like that movie. I'm not a feminist, (in fact I really dislike the movement for many reasons) but the character Rey really bothered me because of how boring her journey is. Everything comes natural to her, and it feels like she never has to overcome any obstacles. She just breezes through the movie with only minor inconvenience. In that way, they are really setting her up to be the ultimate villain, but I doubt the studio would have the balls to make a decision to do that. A hero should have things to overcome.
Where Puppers Go to Die I agree completely
....of course you hate feminism.... 🙄
Same here. Her character's journey isn't fleshed out properly where she can be more relatable...and well, she's also too pretty. Okay I'm not slamming her looks because you see in original Star Wars, I like how Luke isn't really conventionally handsome and represents the everyday hero that we can all root for. I even imagine someone like Maisie or Saorse Ronan could've played the Rey role (okay again I don't mean to bash Daisy Ridley...I just think it's more believable and relatable to actually have homely looking main heroine to match with Luke's and his journey...that's just my opinion haha).
SPOOKY BOI if she sucks as hero imagine as villain. None in this new trilogy is good written. They forgot to give motivations and background for us care about the caracters. The support caracters from Castelvannia have more story than the whole new generation cast
Is it weird that I wrote down all of your stereotypical Strong Female Character(TM) traits so I could compare them to my book's female lead, and cheered that only three of them fit (and two of them not that well)?
Not at all, I takes notes on other TH-camrs pet peeves and tips all the time haha! I'm glad that you're making an effort to know what others are tired of seeing and how you may be able to improve upon your characters. Which tropes/traits did it fall into?
I do that too! :)) It's not weird at all; I find this helps my storytelling a lot.
I don't know if it's considered a female character trope but I see it so often that it might as well be. I call it the Blonde Bitch trope. No matter what book I read, there is always a blonde girl who is either too dumb to function or (in most cases) are mean, bitchy and/or popular, shallow and are supposedly prettier than our brunette protagonist (Bonus points if this blonde girl is rich so she can flaunt her beauty and wealth). Some examples include but not limited to Jessica and Rosalie (correction EVERY SINGLE blonde girl) from Twilight, Aphrodite from House of Night, Glimmer from the Hunger Games, hell the male equivalent is no exception either, look no further than Dudely Dursley and Draco Malfoy from Harry Potter. Recently, I have read Jenna Moreci's novel, "Eve the Awakening" and, while I love the woman's channel and her stories, I still cringed when I saw that the main heroine's bully is a shallow rich blonde girl who exists solely to make the protagonist miserable.
I don't know where this trope came from and I don't know why it's still being used (what does people have against blondes anyway???) I have a feeling that this character trope exists to solely make the brunette protagonist look more humble and "likable" in comparison but here's the irony; I have read stories where, as soon as ms. brunette gains popularity, the hot boy's attention, supernatural powers if its a fantasy setting, she becomes just as shallow, mean and bitchy as the blonde. But we're supposed to hate blondie because protagonist hates her because... I don't know. So far, the only book I've read that subverted this trope is Percy Jackson & the Olympians where Annabeth is blonde but smart, fierce and is one of the main characters. It still grinds my gears to see so many novels use this cliche then and now. I'm not blonde but I still feel uneasy reading stories that immediately vilify a group of people based on the color of their hair. I mean there should be more to a character than just that. Right?
I totally agree. It's such a cliche, and is completely unfounded!
It is painfully cliche and I'm surprised, as many booktubers I follow, this trope is never addressed or mentioned. It almost comes with the "Plain Jane" Trope because, in order for the plain jane to be plain, she needs to have a beautiful but bitchy blonde girl to contrast the plainness.
You are so right. I literally read a wattpad story where a female character was acting Bitchy for a bit, and the main character angrily talked about how blonde girls are so mean and dumb. This made me stop reading Wattpad for a while
I deal with the damsel in distress issue by having the vast majority of all my characters, male or female, take turns as the captive. Based on the circumstances, they usually play at least a minor role in their own rescue
When you were talking about the 'naive virgin' trope, I really started thinking about Robin Hobb's books, especially the Rainwild trilogy (with the dragons and all). In this book, Thymara is the less experienced child, especially as she grows and finds out sex is a thing, but she remains much more intelligent than some of her fellow characters in the book. I highly recommend Robin Hobb's books, even though they technically aren't YA, they are thought out amazingly well, very slow building but intriguing and with amazing relationships and interaction between all the stories and characters!
the fist honorary mention is called a mary sue and they can burn in hell
I am so happy I found your channel. This is a great video, thank you.
I really enjoyed your video! Your opinions are very objective and I’m agree with most of them. Also (this is totally out of topic) your voice is so relaxing haha thank you for sharing this with us✌🏻
Damsels in Distress aren't exactly that according to Overly Sarcastic Productions video, but I love your point of view on it. Totally subscribing
Great video! I found your channel recently and subbed. Been binging your stuff the past few days and I just have to say you've got a lot of great points in your discussions.
I agree about these tropes, especially the "strong female characters" one because it feels more like the definition of that has become "capable of great destruction and violence" rather than being a strong, independent and self sufficient person.
Feminism is very important when it comes to creating good female characters and there is a lot to be learned there, but one thing I don't like is how many "feminists" call out female characters who are too feminine as being weak, as if all of them have to be perfect. An example of this is Rey (who I despise), as she is a bland character who somehow becomes more powerful than everyone in a matter of days. Great examples of female characters IMO are Katara, Suki and Toph from ATLA, or Winry and Riza from Fullmetal Alchemist, as they not only act independently of the men and protagonists, but genuinely add so much to their groups that the story would be incomplete without them.
I feel that neither masculinity not femininity should be discounted or disgraced as they are part of what makes us human, and both genders have both qualities within them. Neither is better or worse than the other. This is something I wish more writers would explore. A woman who is less feminine and more masculine could make as great a character as a man who is less masculine and more feminine, and vice versa.
Anyway, my rant is over lol. No doubt I could have articulated my thoughts better but I hope my ideas do come across. Thanks for reading.
TL;DR - Feminine characters can be just as great as masculine characters and vice versa, strong female character means a woman who is independent, self sufficient and confident in herself, regardless of whether she can be a badass fighter or not.
Ahmad NabiNoor Thanks for this! Great comment :)
DUDE, WHEN SHE SAID KATNISS - I WAS LIKE THANKS!. I was soooooooooooooo waiting for that cliche. Damn.
The points you are making here are gold.
Ahh I love this video so much! These characters/situations piss me off too. You should make a video on character cliches in YA men! I want to see your take on that :)
i art books oooh that’s a great idea!
I really truly agree with you on all of these tropes, and I think a major connection between all of them is this desirable lack of self-esteem and general delusion about their own self worth. YA has a nasty habit of painting the girls who underestimate themselves, hate themselves, beat themselves down, as stronger because I guess they have to struggle more to push out of the dark place they're in mentally, but honestly it never comes across like that, especially to young girls who are seeking validation of their self-hatred through YA stories. It's just upsetting to know that young girls are reading garbage that communicates to them that "yes, hating yourself does make you more interesting" because that is so untrue. A lot of these YA tropes reinforce negative behaviors toward the self and that's really unhealthy, in any genre for any age group, but especially in a genre that is largely filled with romances and is targeted toward a young demographic.
Great video!
Could you make a video on character cliches in YA men? Be interesting to see and to balance the narrative.
Gerard Collins I definitely will at some point!!
Interesting, I actually don't think I ever see these tropes a lot besides the strong female character trope. Yeah I'm never invested in the strong female character type because they are so plain, but I don't think the story suffers much from it.
Two strong female characters I like from books are Deryn from the leviathan trilogy because she has a funny spin to her character and Rose from vampire academy. Rose is much like the Celaena type character, but done right instead of seeming stupid.
I will say that I don't see the "virgin" trope so much anymore, especially with the rise of girl power and pc culture, but I do see the damsel in distress and the strong female characters a ton in the books I read. Again, I don't think that's always a bad thing, if the tropes are done well then I don't have a problem with them. It's just that too frequently I see them being done in the same ways though and they've become tedious.
tbh the virgin trope is big in wattpad fiction. ugh.
I think however wth katniss who can tropey as fuck we have to also take into consideration her character could have had ptsd wish Suzanne Collins would have written that in as a way of explaining why she's less brazen in the second and third books
You are my new hero. Listening to you bolsters my conviction as a writer :D
PhoenixSyndrome Aww, oh my goodness that’s so sweet!!
To the 'Desirable Daisy' (That's what I call the 'Regular Girl' wanted by the superhot guy 😁) trope: It's somewhat akin to a power-fantasy, but I'd call it a desire-fantasy.
It's meant to fulfill the desire of the regular female reader's fantasy of being chosen by the handsome guy. But the reason it's not just a romance-fantasy is that that is more of a symptom of the true point. You see this later when it often evolves into not just the handsome guy wanting her, but another handsome guy coming into the picture and just like the 1st, being unable to control themselves in their desire for her.
Yes, Twilight was deliberately witten to hit all these tropes; Stephenie Meyer most definitrely was drowned in all those old romance novels that were full of them.
It can also evolve into revealing the secret that she was always super-special all along. This trope is essentially the heart of how the Mary-Sue character came about. In movies however, they can't make the girl look too normal as those old laws of the main leads having to be attractive to hold the audiences eyes still applies, so they dress her down a bit. But inevitably, even the normalcy of her looks are shown to have been 'Hidden Superior Beauty', hence the ballroom scenes where she walks in & all eyes are on her. Cue Hermione Granger in the Yule Ball and such.
My favorite heroine of all time in Katniss Everdeen she had flaws she had to face and was headstrong............
I am interested in your take on the Star Wars ladies!!!
Definitely been considering comparing the leading ladies from all of them (Amadala, Leia, Rey, and Jyn), but that means I'll have to rewatch episodes 1-3...
Jordan Harvey haha yeah not my idea of a good time either. have you heard of the machete order? this blogger proposes a new order that he believes conforms to a more natural story arch. its: 4, 5, 2, 3, 6. he recommends skipping 1 because its basically unnecessary back story... anyway i thought it sounded like possibly the only way id be interested in revisiting george lukas' mistakes hehe.
check it out!
www.nomachetejuggling.com/2011/11/11/the-star-wars-saga-suggested-viewing-order/
Laura Garcia I just read the blog post. Great recommendation, thank you!! Aha I actually want to give this a try.
Awesome video! You hit so many points!
Thank you!!
Hey, Could you do a review on The Bone Season, I read this book and felt that it had a lot of flaws and would love to here what you think!
I watched two or three videos in a row of you wearing that shirt. I like your style
I like the shirt okay? Also, I didn't film them all in a row, so I think that's on you.
People seem to forget - or maybe they never knew - that "strong [female] character means that the *writing* is strong; a character with depth, who is likeable but flawed, experiences growth, is interesting...
The Mary Sue: all "rules" in writing are more guidelines than rules; so long as you know the reason behind it, you are allowed to make informed decisions as to how, and when, to break said rules. Mary Sues tend to work just fine if you're writing a pulpy story; I always think of old-school books written for pulp-y sci-fi/fantasy 'zines, like Conan, as perfect examples of when it's fine to have an overpowered character. The point of the story is merely to entertain, it's all about fantasy/wish fulfillment and escapism with a character that will return in a new story and be equally capable in that. (Conan the soldier, the general, the thief, the pirate, the king, etc. James Bond is a really obvious modern version of this type of story-telling and how it can work. Although the Daniel Craig version gets away from that at least a little bit.)
But it tends to work better in short stories of a pulp-y style rather than in long form novels. If it's a novel, or a series, we're probably going to prefer relatable characters with depth and room to grow.
Omg yes all the cookie-cutter katnisses now hahahahah Stwaaap! Plzzz
I don't know if it is "Damsel in distress", but I often encounter the following archetype: She is very moral, never does anything that could compromise her morality, even in situations where there are clearly no other ways than dirty her hands. And in the end, I often realise - she did nothing, in the whole book. There is always someone else who does it for her.
A damsel in distress is not inherently a bad thing. It's actually kind of messed up how it's almost become a problem that a man would ever save a woman in fiction. Everyone needs help sometimes, nobody is capable of fending off every attack, every problem. It's like men aren't allowed to be vulnerable because that's not "manly" and woman aren't allowed to be vulnerable because that's "sexist". Where does it end? What are we setting things up so everyone just bottles all of their emotions away? Yeah... that's healthy.
Tris and Clary are truly horrible characters and I cringed reading their respective books. Tris is actually worse IMO because she's a cookie-cutter Mary Sue, while Clary is a "normal" Mary Sue with a hint of character.
Melpomenea I’d agree with that.
Katniss went from being a bishop to being the king of a chess board.
Right now I'm writing a novel on a girl who's a redhead that works in a bookstore.
She lives with her stepmom her dad and her four step siblings, though her stepmom (step-monster as she likes to call her) is horrible to her, her stepsiblings are extremely supportive of her. She also has depression and the bookstore is her gateway to getting away from it. She calls reading literature morphine, because she talks about how reading numbs the pain of how she's feeling when she's extremely depressed. I wanted her to be more relatable to girls at 16 and 17 because I myself, being 19 believed that reading was literature Morphine.
The main male protagonist is supposed to be a bad boy of course, but he's not abusive to her, he's not like the regular stereotypical YA bad boys. He's the type that hides his feelings and can't trust anybody, but somehow he can trust her later on in the book. He's there for her when she needs him most, they talk things out, they live a pure love, and they don't automatically fall into bed with each other. They gradually fall in love and not just any love, they fall into a healthy love.
And there needs to be more of that.
I love this channel. So damn real.
Good points. Bella makes me sick. Would you say Mara Jade hit your second point? She's in the Thrawn Trilogy (Heir to the Empire starts it off). Also there's Terry Tanaka from The Meg. If you haven't read either, The Meg is a shorter read and has its own movie coming soon.
I agree with all of these sooooo much and the virgin especially because it also happens too often in real life, along with the misconception that girls have to have a sex life to be happy and live their lives. This is a horrid message to send to Young girls who are still trying to figure out what they want and what makes them happy as they delve into these stories that are sometimes huge mentors to them.
I disagree about Katniss being referred to as damsel in distress. She was being saved not for her beauty, but for the rebellion. Just like everyone was sacrificing for Harry potter for the fight against the Dark Lord.
Others were completely on point. Specially I am so plain Bella. 😂😂
Never read Evermore... has almost all these
Briana Konwerski I haven't read it, but now I don't think I ever will...
I read that when I was.. 14? And I liked it from what I remember. I read the first three but I don't remember anything from it. I liked the covers more than anything. I think I was into Twilight and Hush Hush at that age so it makes sense.
i just wanna see a character without a tragic backstory abfnsndn whY IS EVERYONE ABUSED WHFNSNDN WHY CANT WE HAVE HAPPY BACK STORIES????
Random but that lip shade suits you so much❤️
Thanks!
If i don't caunt Twilight i can't even remember the last time i read a book with a damsel in distress.
I don't know if I think Tris is so cliche. Then again I don't read all that much YA, but while I was reading Divergent I enjoyed her inner conflict of who she was and what she wanted to be. And I don't think she fit the "I'm ugly, but beautiful" thing. No one is really all over her and she has one love interest, which I liked. Also I felt like she never lacked agency. She was pretty active. But I haven't read the series in quite a while.
I have a female character in my head who starts out optimistic and innocent having been brought up secluded and sheltered in a forest away from the post apocalyptic setting then becomes corrupted throughout the story as she is shoved into the current state of the "outside world"
[Suki and the Kyoshi Warriors want to know your location]
Ahh, the typical Mary Sue female protagonist. Aelin galathynius is a perfect example of this from throne of glass, she’s beautiful and she knows it, she’s super witty and just oh so intelligent with her classical ‘I’m so smart book talk’ and banter. She’s just so strategic and she just can’t help it. She’s also super badass. At the age of 17 she’s her country’s most famous assassin and then she goes on to fulfill a prophecy. Oh and she’s also royalty. Did I mention that?
What I don't like about the plain girl is that the girl IS very much plain, with no personality yet has every guy falling for her for some reason. I.e. Bella.
That too, though oftentimes, their physical descriptions are hardly "plain"
In terms of Katniss, I disagree. Whether you're a man or woman, once you become a symbol of any kind of movement everyone involved has great motivation to protect the symbol. Katniss - young, impressionable and desiring to help - was caught up in that bubble of protection. I dont think she lost strength so much as was overwhelmed by everyone else's need to keep her safe. She took back her power by recognizing the danger of the very movement she represented. Just my two cents. Lol
Besides 50 shades, I wonder what you're thinking about when you talk about the childish virgin. I don't read very much YA anymore but I don't remember coming across it
Some of these were direct pot shots at Lani Sarem and I love it
I don't know who that is 😂
I'm not sure if you've already read this, but Blue Sargent from The Raven Cycle is a great female character in my opinion and I think she really stands out in midst of all the generic female characters in YA fiction.
Chilea Kashé I haven’t read it, but I’ve heard great things!
You should do a video on the trope that is McGuffins I undestand it is quite common but I don't have a good understanding on why certain objects are McGuffins and others are not and such details.
What's your opinion on the Damsel in Distress when it's portrayed in the classic romance/fairytale stories?
That's very broad! I think it depends.
The damsel thing would work if she is weak because of sickness, I think. But only if they try and get stronger
To be fair, Katness did save Peeta and Gala from time to time.
I have a real-life friend who is awkward, plain, unnoticable at first, but when guys notice her, they want to be with her. She has red hair and glasses, she is clumsy and childish..
So yeah hahahah
Weirdly, these kind of girls actually exist sometimes. 🤣
What about a strong female protagonist (mentally or physically strong, or however you feel like writting her)with a sorta damsel in distress problem, some of love-interests (maybe only according to themselves, because she might not like them?), feel that they must constantly save her... and more or less fucks everything up all the time?
maybe do a video on what you like about YA? Your favorite books?
E I'm actually planning that video right now! :) will be up in a couple weeks
I hope you continued to read Throne of Glass series and see that she does break the mold :^) SJM is a magnificent writer.
I read ACOTAR and... nope, in my experience she cannot write any kind of romantically _desirable_ (read: not abusive/controlling) love interest and her MCs tend to be BORING. What can I name about Feyre... she loves painting? That's it, really. Her worlds are interesting but she always finds some way to botch it.
Also cliches aren't bad in themself. It how the writer uses them. I think you used Mulan some were so I'll use her to. She comes and saves her damsel and distress two times. Once when she pulls him from the Avalanche then again at the Emperors palace. Now if there genders were switched people today would of said that a Terrible Cliche. You also have to think about who your Audience is. I can't speak for women because I'm a male. But I believe most men would agree on this statement. We want are egos rubbed and we want to feel needed. And Rescuing a Damsel and distress proves both of those.
Yes Jordan, do the women of Star Wars. You're brilliant BTW.
Dani Pilon Thank you!! I’m a bit sick of Star Wars right now, but I will at some point :)
Jordan Harvey
I get it. Star Wars has a tendency of sucking the oxygen out of everything--especially this last month. The Last Jedi was such a major disappointment, to say the least. Looking forward to your take on Han, Leia and Luke in the new trilogy and how their arcs have regressed since The Return of the Jedi. Also, han and leia's romance and which category it belongs to.
Thanks for your quick response!
I dont mind any of these tropes 'cause either I dont read them when I mind or I read them when I dont mind
But I guess it wouldnt be a trope if it wasnt overdone so much to the point people crave something else.
i really don't like the plain main character type that legit atract all the hot girls or boys
they are just so bland....what do the girls or boys even love in them?
I loved that video. Keep going that.
Thanks!
Many of these tropes and cliches are probably the biggest reason why it took me years learning and getting comfortable with female characters, when I was roleplaying online. *Note that I was roleplaying a lot in the prime of Twilight*, so a lot of young people's view on how a girl character should be was, probably, pretty warped at that point in time.
That and the convenient shortage of male characters lead me to fancy them for years. Between 2008 and 2012 I rarely had a female character in the roleplays I participated in. I am a woman and during those years I often felt it was extremely awkward, that I was so uncomfortable with it. Occasionally I tried out playing a girl, but as I pursue at least a decent grasp on reality I'd get told that what my characters did was "over the top". While all I did was having my character act like a human being with fairly genuine reactions. It created the illusion that I had much more freedom in my male characters, and by roleplaying male characters, somehow, I could get away with more. So I ended up just sticking to them to avoid the frustration of not being able to have normal human reactions.
In 2012 I created a "hybrid" boy/girl character that could swap gender as a way for me to get used to roleplaying girls. Now I feel that I've found a good balance for my female characters, though I dare say most of my current characters are probably still male :D
I think I have to go back and read the hunger games trilogy because I don't think Katniss fit the damsel in distress trope in the last two, but I did read it with high school brain, and maybe college brain will see it.
about the katniss thing: i also didn’t like how she was constantly saved and that may be one of the reasons why i like the first or second book most.
but, i have to say that i get why she’s been constantly saved.
apart from being the face of the rebellion and having to stay safe, katniss suffers from ptsd.
since after the first hunger games till she has kids she’s having constant nightmares about it and the things that she had to suffer then. in the books she wants to help, she wants to be useful, she wants to fight, and she even gets on the army, but even though it’s to dangerous for her to fight, she’s not in the condition to do it. she’s not as strong as she was in the first book because a lot of things happened that damaged her psychologically.
About the mean girl trope
In my novel the 'mean girl' dates the main guy before the book and dumped him for someone she thought had better political gain, given that they are nobility
She goes back to the main guy character but he doesn't take her back, he wants to just be friends
So when the female mc and male mc are getting together, the 'mean girl' does mean things (reports her for the use of forbidden magic)
But I feel my 'mean girl' is mean with a purpose
She doesn't love my male mc as much as she actually wants to benefit from his family's noble standing
I just gave the short of it, I can elaborate if need be but... sounds too cliche??🤷🏾♀️
I disagree 100% on Jyn’s mention. She’s a strong character who is explained why she’s strong, there’s also a reason why she’s the way she is. Yet, she’s never actually an asshole. She’s sarcastic, but they show kindness in her a bunch of time. I feel people look over how rounded she actually is just because we only knew her for 2 hours.
Have you ever seen or read Heaven's Lost Property?
most of my characters have a badassery steak so my new character is a fun loving empress who know that she has to take responsibility for her kingdom, she has several friends within the palace who protect her because she took them in and gave them another chance at life, is it bad?
You just described my problem with mistborn, I love the mistborn trilogy, a lot, I’m currently on book two, and Vin is so tropey I can’t stand it. She suffer from that “strong woman” mold problem. It’s such a shame because the books are amazing, and Brandon Sanderson is a good writer so I don’t understand how could he write such a cliche of a character as protagonist :/
Clementine Spotless Mind Yeah, I read the first book and while I didn’t hate her, she did feel like a cliche. I just couldn’t connect with her very well.
Hard agree with the bit about Katniss and her being a damsel in distress
Even in the first book, I feel like Katniss benefited just as much from the actions of others as she did her own
The fact she only had to kill the one person in the entire first game just to survive for example
All the other contestants either conveniently killed by means not entirely her fault, or killed by someone else
But at least she did actively do things herself which drove the plot and her own safety
In the rest of the books, Katniss just seems to have things happen to or for her because of other people
Her being a symbol of the rebellion ended up meaning that her just showing up to something was all the work she needed to do
And the fact that everyone focused solely on keeping her ass alive got a little frustrating because she was very clearly capable
I do understand why they made her safety so important
But her role just kinda regressed to following others and just being in places or doing things because of the actions set up by others
I love YA novels, even though I'm in my early 20's, I still read them
But YA tropes can be pretty grating for me and I feel they're somewhat lazy and dissapointing for storied which such a unique premise fall into clichés