Sysreq was quite used in large corporate environments running 3270 emulators on PCs. It had no use in the 'consumer' and small business markets, but that was not where IBM was making its money.
Hey! Be nice to the humble backtick! It’s used fairly frequently in BASH, JavaScript, MySQL and probably others as well! Although I agree that’s definitely NOT where it belongs.
Agreed! But to be fair, bash, JS, and MySQL all came after 1984! I know SQL itself is older but i'm not sure if it's original implementations used the backtick 🤔
Interesting, I had always thought the layout on the Model M (and indeed many modern keyboards) was entirely IBM's original design.... You learn something new every day I guess
Actually, I think the DEC VT keyboards contributed more to correcting IBM's shortcomings.The DEC Rainbow was close. This may have been because of the popularity of DEC VT terminals, which were extremely popular prior to the PC revolution.
But IBM didn't seem to care about copying any of its features until the Tandy 1000 was introduced in 1984, and then IBM hastily introduced the Model M in mid-1985. So yes, DEC did have the right idea, but it took competition from Tandy to get IBM to change their keyboard layout.
@@vwestlife You're forgetting the Model F 122-key, released in *1983* . It's layout is closer to the Model M's than the Tandy's is. It has cursor keys (albeit in a cross), a 3×2 cluster above them, Enter on the numeric keypad and two _additional_ rows of _twelve_ function keys each
Also I believe the IBM terminals were the first to even include function keys. So Tandy copied IBM in that instance. Everyone was copying each other in the early days of computing. So it wasn't unusual for one company to take a good idea from another.
@@FindecanorNotGmail I didn't forget it, I just decided it wasn't relevant to the topic. The Model F Battleship was only used with the 3270 PC, not ordinary PCs.
I used a software editor in DOS. When using the scroll lock, the cursor would stay fixed and the text would scroll up or down as I pressed the up or down arrow key. I think it also worked in a spreadsheet program I used to use.
@@JesperD87it always came up in my schools’ computer classes. Someone would unintentionally press scroll lock in Excel or insert in Word, and get awfully confused why they kept having to manually scroll with the bars or were erasing their text while typing new stuff. Only some of the teachers knew, so sometimes they’d just have to put up with it!
@@kaitlyn__LI cannot think of a single good use for the insert key so it can go f off. Also as far as I'm where it works inside of TH-cam if you're using a desktop computer.
Regarding tower cases: The IBM AT (model 5170), introduced in 1984, had a tower stand available as an accessory as well, you could even rotate the IBM badge on the front of the case so it wasn't on its side when standing upright. My dad had his AT on the floor upright back then, with the chunky red power switch on the top :)
@@vwestlife That's awesome! This should be a much more common feature. I have later PC cases that can be used either flat or upright, but they lazily decided to put the logo at a 45 degree angle...
Oh man, the DEC Rainbow 100. We had one as a hand-me-down and I only ever got the "Learning" disk working, which was basically just an ad for the machine. The disk drives shared a spindle so the lower disk went in upside down (which 5-7 year old me never figured out in the 90's). We got rid of it in a basement purge in probably the early 2000's. Wish I knew enough to hang onto it.
I think both IBM and DEC ran into the situation of having too broad a product line. Both also made terminals that used the same style keyboards as their PC-style products. The DEC Rainbow layout was the same as the VT-220/-240/-241 terminals and later VAXstation workstations. The PF1-PF4 keys in the application keypad area needed to be there for backward compatibility with their venerable VT-100, and having dedicated Help and Do keys were written in to many of Digital's applications. The F1-F5 keys were used by the terminals to get into setup mode, or send X-On/X-Off flow control characters for a Hold Screen function. I remember the Tandy 2000, and have pointed out their use of the F11 & F12 keys. The quad-density 5.25-inch floppy drives were actually a good technology choice until IBM stuck a fork in the road with the 1.2MB floppy and set a new standard.
That's how I remember it too. I started on VT-52s and thought the VT-100 was amazing when we got them in along with our first VAX. I still have one of those rubber overlays secretaries used to put over the numeric keypad for word processing functions.
Small note: those DEC systems didn't just use the same keyboard layout, they used the exact same LK201 keyboard. The only difference was the legends in the window. IIRC it wasn't obvious how to change the legends without damage but I'm sure it was possible.
@@defaultuserid1559 Was that the WPS or WPS-Plus layout? 😃 WPS was DEC's Word Processing System editor, used for stand-alone word processor hardware or on a VAX running the VMS OS. WPS-Plus was an enhanced version, taking advantage of improvements in the VT terminals and related printers. (And yes, it was often pronounced as "whoops" and "whoops plus"! 🤭)
@@eDoc2020 If I recall there were legends on the keyboard from the factory, then sort of an overlay strip with different ones. There were variations of the keyboard that had colored keycaps, like a PF1 colored "gold" for the WPS and EDT editors.
@@bobblum5973 Probably the original WPS since these were early days for the VAX. They went to WPS Plus later because they wanted to start using the LN03 laser printer. Mac users also wanted to use the networked LN03s since not everyone could get a LaserWriter approved.
that "grave" key is now very frequently used in javascript/typescript as the backtick character for template literals. also used elsewhere in computer science.
@@nickwallette6201 standard SQL uses double quotes (not backticks) to quote table, columns and identifiers. As far as I know MySQL is the only one doing that.
@@davidbono9359 Likely adapted from shell programming syntax. A backtick is used to run a string of text as a command line, returning its value (Perl borrowed this as well).
As someone who used IBM terminals at work for 30 years, I’m sure I typed a few million keystrokes on that later model M keyboard with the F keys across the top. As I recall, “system request” allowed one to get a second screen to log in to and do work on. I loved the feel of those IBM keyboards. ⌨️
Great video explanation - when you were saying Tandy computer benefits I was screaming 'graphics!!' - but you were just saving the best for last. :) cheers!
I smiled at your explanation of Americans’ struggle with the original IBM PC keyboard, as it’s such a mirror to how I kept accidentally pressing \ when meaning to press enter when I was switching from ISO to ANSI. I always used to hit the bigger part of the enter key, a row above. And usually with my pinky, not my ring finger like I usually do with ANSI enter nowadays. Thankfully it’s less jarring to use ISO enter now I’m accustomed this way, since I can still hit the smaller part of it.
When you said ''Tandy 2000'' I just time machined back to the store I first saw it. It was expensive (for me), I couldn't buy one and I look forward to a video about it.
Ha ha, I knew I recognised that voice! WordPerfect for DOS was such a good program, I still don't like how Word hides formatting in the GUI with no way to know it is there! The Europe thing is interesting too, I can remember reading an article about some of the best key placement improvements in computer history, however when I worked in the UK they still used most of the dodgy previous versions!
The 90's was great time for touch typists in the sense that almost all keyboards had basically identical layout, and also the tactile feedback of even the most basic keyboards was good. And for gamers, at least in the early 90's, they often offered a full rollover. Now, every keyboard has some quirks on the layout (some that you can easily miss even when trying to look for a standard one), and the keyboards can get confused even from a few simultaneous keys being pressed.
I am fortunate enough to own both a Tandy 2000, and a DEC rainbow keyboard. When I interviewed the now departed Tandy CEO John Roach a couple years ago for my channel, he indicated that he thought Bill Gates actually tricked him into building the Tandy 2000, to showcase Windows 1.0. According to Roach, Gates required the larger capacity floppy drives in order to run Windows without a hard drive. Even on the Radio Shack back office systems (which is what happened to most of the 2000s) which have monochrome graphics and no mouse card, Windows still runs surprisingly well. The system was both faster and slower because the 80186 only allowed for 256k of conventional memory, half that of the 8088. There was only one other system that was tailor made for Windows 1.0 in this country, an HP featured once on Adrian's Digital Basement. It was my understanding that there was an NEC system that could also run Windows 1.0, and that this was the system that finally proved to Steve Jobs that Gates was stealing his stuff.
Actually the Tandy 2000 could have up to 768K of RAM, higher than the maximum 640K conventional RAM of ordinary PCs. Microsoft also used Wang's non-IBM-compatible PCs to demonstrate pre-release versions of Windows. There's a video of Windows showing the Wang logo on the screen at COMDEX in 1983.
I didn't know about the Wang pre-release. I had a conversation with the late John Roach once, CEO of Tandy at the time of the 2000. He indicated that the use of the 80186 was Bill Gates idea. He also said the development of TRS-DOS and use of the 256k kernel was necessary to have a usable DOS with the 80186.@@vwestlife
I'm a ISO (Norway) keyboard user, and I prefer the ISO layout. The left shift key has about the same distance from the F-key as the right shift key has from the J-key - that makes sense. The Enter-key is double the height as the US-layout which makes it easy to hit when typing fast.
That hold key rocked for games. Some games disabled it, that of course had to be hacked back in immediately. The thing is Tandy actually knew how to build a computer and had been doing just that well before the IBM-PC. Actually successfully marketing their products was hit or miss.
It’s ironic that Tandy was the first to make that keyboard layout, and were innovators like IBM and Apple! But Tandy failed to adapt to their competitors because of their c suite management who don’t know to focus on improving their products, which is why Tandy Radio Shack went the way of the dodo! Also you should do more with Colin from TDNC!
Thanks for this entertaining video (as usual). You can have my Model M keyboard when I'm dead - I'm using it to type this comment right now. It's dated 08 August 1989 and it is still as good as it was on that day. Good for another 34 years I would have thought!
I love my Tandy 1000 HX and TX... and the keyboards are nice... but... I don't know... the placement of the "alt" key was always a deal breaker for me! But yes, the keyboard has a great tactile feel, no question about it, and was an improvement in placement over the Model F for the most part!!
As a UK-ISO layout user, I disagree, not that it matters really cos people generally don't get a choice as to what they are taught to type on these days, given what country you're in dictates what standard is hooked up to a computer, it just bugs the heck out of me when I have to use a random ANSI layout and I'm typing gibberish cos certain keys are in the wrong place for my muscle memory... :S
Exactly. The UK layout is the best layout. It has all the keys of the US keyboard plus £ and € above 3. \ is in a sensible logical place - on the left next to Z where it should be. If / is on the right, it makes sense that \ is on the left next to Z. \ should never be above or forward of /. Thats stupid. Its BACKslash. " and @ are also swapped on the US layout. Why.
I'm too used to having them where they are to change them, but I can very much see why people do this. As a side note, Unicomp sells swapped Ctrl and Caps Lock keycaps for Model M keyboards. 🙂
Keyboards sold today aren't built like tanks the way these were or they have other problems. I returned a Corsair gaming keyboard that was built rugged but the T key failed followed by the R key. Turned out to be a common problem. I'm currently on a cheap amazon backlit keyboard where the keys frequently pop off if you hit them off center too hard. Still looking for a good backlit keyboard (no RGB animation needed or wanted) with decent key mechanisms.
Hi, for what seems like eternity - 1986 to 1997 at work we had terminal keyboards as the main computer system was mini based. We used 122 key - keyboards F1 to F24, then some extra keys for clear screen, erase to end of field, and erase to end of line - most of the early ones 286/386 were very heavy all metal honeywell keyboards as the Pc's were actually very base pc's with floppy or eprom boot to terminal emulator Later on in late 486 days, we had generic PC clones with all of the the pc's based on windows 95/98 - and yes still the 122 keyboard for operation to talk to the host mini's
My mother is still coping with pre-WWII typewriters being retired and being replaced with keyboards. Both electric and computer. And, no... she's not octogenarian. Countries under Soviet control (Eastern Europe) used mechanical typewriters until '80s. She was a typist in her government run enterprise. Baby boomer. Still smacks every button, key, touch screen to this very day😑
My long-deceased was the same: her typing sounded like a Gatling gun. The need to make carbon copies meant robust typing was necessary. Those ladies were incredible. Another skill they all had was shorthand.
I think the IBM PC Keyboard layout is largely a symptom of the keyboard assembly itself being shared with other non-PC systems. For example, the System/23 Datamaster that came slightly before PC and the 5250-compatible 5291/5292 Display Stations that came slightly after having the same physical layout. I feel like maybe economies of scale and 'overcorrecting' for reducing cost and variance compared to beamspring-based keyboards played a part? All 3 of the aforementioned systems adopted the IBM 5250 data typewriter layout. maybe just with different legends and only a few minor tweaks to minimise the need for large key stabilisers. As someone who grew up with ISO, it never bothers me though. I think it's fair to thank DEC and Tandy for moving things towards the eventual Enhanced layout, but going back to beamspring keyboards, it's interesting to note a lot of 'experimenting' by IBM on Model B keyboards in the '70s that eventually came full circle. For example, IBM 4978 keyboards from 1978 have what resemble ANSI left shift and Enter, IBM 3732 keyboards from 1978 (despite also nailing down the ISO layout) have a clearly separate arrow key cluster (though in a plus shape), and the 92-key versions of the IBM 5253/5254 Display Station and Displaywriter keyboards from 1978 and 1979 respectively had ANSI style left shift and an Enter key similar to this Tandy keyboard. Earlier in 1983, IBM introduced the 104-key Model F "unsaver" for IBM 3290 which had a lot more function keys (though not segregated) and a nav cluster very close to Enhanced.
My first home pc was a Tandy 1000. Not the first one I used (Those were Sinclair, BBC and SORD). Loved it, its keyboard. Transitioning to el chipo clones with all over hodge podge keyboards in the late 80's early 90's was a b!tch.
I think it was Tandy 1000 TL keyboard I liked. Arrow keys had home in middle. Arrow keys lay out was not upside down T it was a cross ✝️. So home was in middle of cross and up above down below home key
most used keys need some space around so that the hand can seek keys "by touch". For example cursor keys are isolated. Imagine having 5 extra keys around the cursor keys... it would be a nightmare to type.
Just to clear the path for the eventual evolution of the keyboard to include a Pizza key, of course. Way too early back then, before the Internet was flourishing in every household.
Are you aware of the IBM F104 "unsaver" and F122 "battleship?" These keyboards, mostly intended for IBM terminals, were the progenitor of the Model M's layout. If you look at them, they're allot closer to the M layout than the XT or AT. They were introduced in mid 1983 and early 1984 respectively. But notably, they still hadn't fixed allot of the things that you mention that the Tandy 1000/2000 did. They did put the function keys on top, but didn't group them (and there were 24 of them, not 12.) They isolated the navigation keys, but in a crosspad design, not an inverted T. The keyboard itself still had something closer to the ISO layout, they overcompensated with too many buttons on the numpad, they left a bank of extra keys to the left of the typing area, and there were still no lock lights (though the terminals these came with did have permanent indicators on the display.) It's almost like they took the things they got right with the F104/F122, and pasted the things that they liked about the Tandy keyboard on top.
The Rainbow was also intended as a VT, CP/M, and MS-DOS machine. At least in VT mode, the F11 key on the LK201 serves as an Escape key (when talking to a Linux box, anyway) and all of those keys do something in a full-screen forms app written for an OS like VMS. Not so sure about MS-DOS though. I haven’t been blessed with any OS disks for mine.
You'll have a hard time finding Tandy 2000's, as they didn't sell well and became store fixtures. IIRC, when the Tandy 1000 came out, the stores moved the Tandy 2000's to the back room, for internal use. They were used for Invetory, Payroll, etc. At the end of each day, it would modem in sales numbers and more. This kept Tandy on the leading edge, at least for management. But they were so obsolete and worn out when replaced, that they were just disposed.
Wouldn't it be better if the labels for the function keys were software controllable rather than paper you have to keep swapping in and out? Oh no! I just invented the Touch Bar! There's another flop though that one might not have a legacy worthy of a video from you in 30 years.
You must be the first person to point out where IBM got much of their inspiration for the Model M from; everyone else just echoes the same sentiment that IBM’s influential design was one entirely of their own creation. Interesting to learn that isn’t entirely true.
Being from Europe I assure you the difference between ISO and the US shift and enter is so small you will get used to in like 5 minutes, in fact i see no problem having iso on pc and us on a laptop etc as long as its still america english layout though i never gave the british layout a try to be fair. In here they sell both US and ISO style keyboards with the american/international layout
Almost... it only has 10 F-keys, and the cursor keys are an inconvenient diamond layout with a dummy key in the middle. It also still requires you to press Shift to get a Print Screen.
@@vwestlife True enough, but it was a viable alternative for the IBM PC. Mine was the first keyboard I owned for my Columbia MPC 1600 and I still have both! They did make several keyboard template for popular software for it (I remember Word Perfect) I had one or two somewhere... Looking at it, it does have indicator lights for the Num Lock, Cursr Pad and Caps Lock. It also has 2 unmarked mystry keys, maybe I can configure them for a Windows Key? 🙂 I do remember how nice it was to have a separate numeric keypad and cursor keys. Unlike the RGB whiz-bang keyboards of today, it is built like a tank!
Linux (optionally) features the Magic SysRq key. Pressing Alt+SysRq+KEY lets you send commands directly to the kernel. For example, pressing Alt+SysRq+U remounts all disks read-only, pressing Alt+SysRq+S syncs the disks, and Alt+SysRq+B forces a reboot. Came in quite handy back in the day. Wikipedia has a full list.
But IBM didn't seem to care about that until the Tandy 1000 was introduced in 1984, and then IBM hastily introduced the Model M in mid-1985. So yes, DEC did have the right idea, but it took competition from Tandy to get IBM to change their keyboard layout.
IBM was a big typewriter manufacturer, and the driving force to reject the Dvorak layout. They ensured the continued use of the bad Sholes layout. When electric typewriters appeared, they could've introduced models with alphabetic layout to make iit easier to learn for beginners. They didn't do that either. It doesn't come as a surprise to me that they were worse than their competition once.
Yea septandy. You didn't show the f13-24 key keyboard. I'm not talking holding down the shift key either. :) I could be wrong and to lazy to look it up. But I think the SysRq was for IBM mainframes. I remember reading IBM was excited to come out with a card to connect the mainframe. TN3270 card I think.
when I first saw the PCjr keyboard in my early 20s, it was the first time that I start to doubt the infallibility of large corporations. Even to me it seems dumb.
A LOT of computer OEMs are forgotten these days that were IBM compatible that were better than IBM: Compaq, ALR, Gateway 2000, Hewitt Rand (granted those were just clones), AST, Hyundai, Daewoo, Mitsubishi, Leading Edge, Micron, Commodore, etc. All of these were cheaper, way more upgradable (very arguably Compaq was not), and had their own contributions to the then growing PC market. Just because something is still around doesn't mean it's better, it just had better market penetration (education/government helps a lot here), adoption, and very likely boils down to better marketing.
question at 10:45, do not all new reasent IBM compatibles just double up f1 to f12 with shift or control key, I'm not that up on the subjet, none of my software uses more 12 f key?
And here I am sitting now on a Mechanical Keyboard with RGB LED's Built into every single key and using a piece of software to change the colour of those LED's when the LOCK keys Enable / Disable but not just for the lock in question but also for all the keys affected by said lock. Those keys will turm from my usual colourshift blue/purple scheme to Orange when the lock is on also the same is true for the shift key. and its affected keys. I also used the same software to turn the ESC, F1-12, and G6-G9 (Logitech Macro Keys) of my G910 into an Analog Clock. Where One function key lights up red to denote the hour hand, ESC is an AM/PM Indicator with RED for PM, and The F1-12 keys Light Orange for each 5 minute interval with the G6-G9 Keys showing orange for Minute 1 to Minute 4 of the next 5 minute interval. The hour display will also flash when the highest miniute indicator overlaps the hour indicator for example 1:05-1:092:10-214 3:15-319 Etc etc so one can see the minute indicatror below it. Minutes Indicator also changes from Orange to Magenta on the quarter and half hours (15, 30, and 45 mins) I Hid a Flashing Green "Second Hand" that displays Seconds in the same manner as Minutes display but flashing so as to avoid the overlay but this only shows when you enable the scroll lock because it was annoying when always on and it gave me a use for the scroll lock key.. I also added a "Word Clock" Function where for 5 Seconds on the hour the words "ONE" "TWO" "THRE" "FOUR" "FIVE" "SIX" "SEVN" "EIGHT" "NIE" "TEN" "ELVN" or "TWELV" will blink red in the keyboard. Really How usefull is all of this? Not so much haha but it was a fun thing to try to make the keyboard do.
@vwestlife I have a Tandy 2000 (dual floppy model) in great condition I could extend-loan to the channel for a video. Get in touch. Even have the "digi- mouse"! :)
Om my word that Tandy 1000 Keyboard sound is my childhood in a nutshell.... But Ours unlike yours had the Left shift key properly positioned next to ZED rather than ZEE because it was purchased and used in Canada.
I hope luck brings you a Tandy 2000 someday - a video about it could be very cool.
Suprised by Colin's voice, didn't expect that.
Later I read the description to confirm, ah yes it's him.
Sysreq was quite used in large corporate environments running 3270 emulators on PCs. It had no use in the 'consumer' and small business markets, but that was not where IBM was making its money.
Didn't expect the crossover with Colin from This Does Not Compute... very cool!
Hey! Be nice to the humble backtick! It’s used fairly frequently in BASH, JavaScript, MySQL and probably others as well! Although I agree that’s definitely NOT where it belongs.
Agreed! But to be fair, bash, JS, and MySQL all came after 1984! I know SQL itself is older but i'm not sure if it's original implementations used the backtick 🤔
Interesting, I had always thought the layout on the Model M (and indeed many modern keyboards) was entirely IBM's original design.... You learn something new every day I guess
Actually, I think the DEC VT keyboards contributed more to correcting IBM's shortcomings.The DEC Rainbow was close. This may have been because of the popularity of DEC VT terminals, which were extremely popular prior to the PC revolution.
But IBM didn't seem to care about copying any of its features until the Tandy 1000 was introduced in 1984, and then IBM hastily introduced the Model M in mid-1985. So yes, DEC did have the right idea, but it took competition from Tandy to get IBM to change their keyboard layout.
@@vwestlife You're forgetting the Model F 122-key, released in *1983* .
It's layout is closer to the Model M's than the Tandy's is.
It has cursor keys (albeit in a cross), a 3×2 cluster above them, Enter on the numeric keypad and two _additional_ rows of _twelve_ function keys each
Also I believe the IBM terminals were the first to even include function keys. So Tandy copied IBM in that instance. Everyone was copying each other in the early days of computing. So it wasn't unusual for one company to take a good idea from another.
@@FindecanorNotGmail Its; behind
@@FindecanorNotGmail I didn't forget it, I just decided it wasn't relevant to the topic. The Model F Battleship was only used with the 3270 PC, not ordinary PCs.
I used a software editor in DOS. When using the scroll lock, the cursor would stay fixed and the text would scroll up or down as I pressed the up or down arrow key. I think it also worked in a spreadsheet program I used to use.
Yes, that's how it's supposed to work. But most people never use it.
AFAIK, the Scroll Lock key still works when using MS Excel or Libreoffice Calc
@@JesperD87it always came up in my schools’ computer classes. Someone would unintentionally press scroll lock in Excel or insert in Word, and get awfully confused why they kept having to manually scroll with the bars or were erasing their text while typing new stuff. Only some of the teachers knew, so sometimes they’d just have to put up with it!
@@kaitlyn__LI cannot think of a single good use for the insert key so it can go f off. Also as far as I'm where it works inside of TH-cam if you're using a desktop computer.
That Tandy keyboard has a very good feel for typing. The one I have is still going great on my Tandy 1000 after all these years.
Regarding tower cases:
The IBM AT (model 5170), introduced in 1984, had a tower stand available as an accessory as well, you could even rotate the IBM badge on the front of the case so it wasn't on its side when standing upright.
My dad had his AT on the floor upright back then, with the chunky red power switch on the top :)
The Tandy 2000 also has a rotatable badge.
@@vwestlife That's awesome!
This should be a much more common feature.
I have later PC cases that can be used either flat or upright, but they lazily decided to put the logo at a 45 degree angle...
Nice Swing Out Sister cameo 😂
Oh man, the DEC Rainbow 100. We had one as a hand-me-down and I only ever got the "Learning" disk working, which was basically just an ad for the machine. The disk drives shared a spindle so the lower disk went in upside down (which 5-7 year old me never figured out in the 90's).
We got rid of it in a basement purge in probably the early 2000's. Wish I knew enough to hang onto it.
I think both IBM and DEC ran into the situation of having too broad a product line. Both also made terminals that used the same style keyboards as their PC-style products. The DEC Rainbow layout was the same as the VT-220/-240/-241 terminals and later VAXstation workstations. The PF1-PF4 keys in the application keypad area needed to be there for backward compatibility with their venerable VT-100, and having dedicated Help and Do keys were written in to many of Digital's applications. The F1-F5 keys were used by the terminals to get into setup mode, or send X-On/X-Off flow control characters for a Hold Screen function.
I remember the Tandy 2000, and have pointed out their use of the F11 & F12 keys. The quad-density 5.25-inch floppy drives were actually a good technology choice until IBM stuck a fork in the road with the 1.2MB floppy and set a new standard.
That's how I remember it too. I started on VT-52s and thought the VT-100 was amazing when we got them in along with our first VAX. I still have one of those rubber overlays secretaries used to put over the numeric keypad for word processing functions.
Small note: those DEC systems didn't just use the same keyboard layout, they used the exact same LK201 keyboard. The only difference was the legends in the window. IIRC it wasn't obvious how to change the legends without damage but I'm sure it was possible.
@@defaultuserid1559 Was that the WPS or WPS-Plus layout? 😃
WPS was DEC's Word Processing System editor, used for stand-alone word processor hardware or on a VAX running the VMS OS. WPS-Plus was an enhanced version, taking advantage of improvements in the VT terminals and related printers.
(And yes, it was often pronounced as "whoops" and "whoops plus"! 🤭)
@@eDoc2020 If I recall there were legends on the keyboard from the factory, then sort of an overlay strip with different ones.
There were variations of the keyboard that had colored keycaps, like a PF1 colored "gold" for the WPS and EDT editors.
@@bobblum5973 Probably the original WPS since these were early days for the VAX. They went to WPS Plus later because they wanted to start using the LN03 laser printer. Mac users also wanted to use the networked LN03s since not everyone could get a LaserWriter approved.
that "grave" key is now very frequently used in javascript/typescript as the backtick character for template literals. also used elsewhere in computer science.
Also used to apply "code" formatting in Markdown documents.
@@davidbono9359 yep and for surrounding table and schema names in MySQL
Handy in SQL to disambiguate table and field names.
@@nickwallette6201 standard SQL uses double quotes (not backticks) to quote table, columns and identifiers. As far as I know MySQL is the only one doing that.
@@davidbono9359 Likely adapted from shell programming syntax. A backtick is used to run a string of text as a command line, returning its value (Perl borrowed this as well).
As someone who used IBM terminals at work for 30 years, I’m sure I typed a few million keystrokes on that later model M keyboard with the F keys across the top. As I recall, “system request” allowed one to get a second screen to log in to and do work on. I loved the feel of those IBM keyboards. ⌨️
Great video explanation - when you were saying Tandy computer benefits I was screaming 'graphics!!' - but you were just saving the best for last. :) cheers!
Always a pleasure and a great learning experience when I watch your videos. Someone donate a Tandy 2000 to this man! :)
I smiled at your explanation of Americans’ struggle with the original IBM PC keyboard, as it’s such a mirror to how I kept accidentally pressing \ when meaning to press enter when I was switching from ISO to ANSI.
I always used to hit the bigger part of the enter key, a row above. And usually with my pinky, not my ring finger like I usually do with ANSI enter nowadays. Thankfully it’s less jarring to use ISO enter now I’m accustomed this way, since I can still hit the smaller part of it.
If Bill Gates actually sounded like TDNC, I feel like he would be even more successful than he already is.
LOL. I was checking the comments to see if I was crazy thinking that voiceover sounded like Collin.
Me Also
When you said ''Tandy 2000'' I just time machined back to the store I first saw it.
It was expensive (for me), I couldn't buy one and I look forward to a video about it.
I'm from Europe and I hate the ISO keyboard layout so I import my keyboards from the US for the better ANSI layout
Ha ha, I knew I recognised that voice!
WordPerfect for DOS was such a good program, I still don't like how Word hides formatting in the GUI with no way to know it is there!
The Europe thing is interesting too, I can remember reading an article about some of the best key placement improvements in computer history, however when I worked in the UK they still used most of the dodgy previous versions!
The 90's was great time for touch typists in the sense that almost all keyboards had basically identical layout, and also the tactile feedback of even the most basic keyboards was good. And for gamers, at least in the early 90's, they often offered a full rollover. Now, every keyboard has some quirks on the layout (some that you can easily miss even when trying to look for a standard one), and the keyboards can get confused even from a few simultaneous keys being pressed.
The AT Keyboard is so close to being good - always loved the HHKB layout
Now I have to put on some "Swing Out Sister" music, lol.
I am fortunate enough to own both a Tandy 2000, and a DEC rainbow keyboard. When I interviewed the now departed Tandy CEO John Roach a couple years ago for my channel, he indicated that he thought Bill Gates actually tricked him into building the Tandy 2000, to showcase Windows 1.0. According to Roach, Gates required the larger capacity floppy drives in order to run Windows without a hard drive. Even on the Radio Shack back office systems (which is what happened to most of the 2000s) which have monochrome graphics and no mouse card, Windows still runs surprisingly well. The system was both faster and slower because the 80186 only allowed for 256k of conventional memory, half that of the 8088. There was only one other system that was tailor made for Windows 1.0 in this country, an HP featured once on Adrian's Digital Basement. It was my understanding that there was an NEC system that could also run Windows 1.0, and that this was the system that finally proved to Steve Jobs that Gates was stealing his stuff.
Actually the Tandy 2000 could have up to 768K of RAM, higher than the maximum 640K conventional RAM of ordinary PCs. Microsoft also used Wang's non-IBM-compatible PCs to demonstrate pre-release versions of Windows. There's a video of Windows showing the Wang logo on the screen at COMDEX in 1983.
I didn't know about the Wang pre-release. I had a conversation with the late John Roach once, CEO of Tandy at the time of the 2000. He indicated that the use of the 80186 was Bill Gates idea. He also said the development of TRS-DOS and use of the 256k kernel was necessary to have a usable DOS with the 80186.@@vwestlife
I'm a ISO (Norway) keyboard user, and I prefer the ISO layout. The left shift key has about the same distance from the F-key as the right shift key has from the J-key - that makes sense. The Enter-key is double the height as the US-layout which makes it easy to hit when typing fast.
And \ is in the correct place as well. On the left next to Z where it should be - it makes sense since / is on the opposite side. Its logical.
That hold key rocked for games. Some games disabled it, that of course had to be hacked back in immediately.
The thing is Tandy actually knew how to build a computer and had been doing just that well before the IBM-PC. Actually successfully marketing their products was hit or miss.
Shout out to this does not compute!
Japanese NEC PC-9801 computers used slots like that also. It was really convenient to be able to install and remove cards from the back.
Good to see we've come full circle now that many laptops don't even have a Caps Lock light anymore!
Thankfully, my current keyboard's Caps Lock LED can be disabled via software since I've repurposed the key as Compose. :^)
... and thanks to its solid construction, IBM's Model F keyboard was also used to settle office conflicts in the 1980's.
They could also use a Western Electric 500 telephone for that.
As a pretty long time kb user, it was interesting to see some of the causes of my suffering during the evolution.
That was Colin from "this does not compute" reading that statements about windows being demoed on the Tandy.
I cant state enough how i like those easter eggs in such videos. 🙂
1:03 quite a surprise hearing Colin!
It’s ironic that Tandy was the first to make that keyboard layout, and were innovators like IBM and Apple! But Tandy failed to adapt to their competitors because of their c suite management who don’t know to focus on improving their products, which is why Tandy Radio Shack went the way of the dodo! Also you should do more with Colin from TDNC!
My grandpa had a Tandy 2000 but unfortunately it got burned up in shop fire a few years back.
Thanks for this entertaining video (as usual). You can have my Model M keyboard when I'm dead - I'm using it to type this comment right now. It's dated 08 August 1989 and it is still as good as it was on that day. Good for another 34 years I would have thought!
Wordpad in Windows 10 (and 11) still has the "CAP" indicator when Caps Lock is on, I guess because of legacy reasons
i would like to see you do a tandy 2000 video! that would be great kevin!
wasn't expecting to hear This Does Not Compute's voice in here, hah
I love my Tandy 1000 HX and TX... and the keyboards are nice... but... I don't know... the placement of the "alt" key was always a deal breaker for me! But yes, the keyboard has a great tactile feel, no question about it, and was an improvement in placement over the Model F for the most part!!
Dang! I'm using a Model M on my computer right now, and the Pause key doesn't pause this video! 😆
As a UK-ISO layout user, I disagree, not that it matters really cos people generally don't get a choice as to what they are taught to type on these days, given what country you're in dictates what standard is hooked up to a computer, it just bugs the heck out of me when I have to use a random ANSI layout and I'm typing gibberish cos certain keys are in the wrong place for my muscle memory... :S
Exactly. The UK layout is the best layout. It has all the keys of the US keyboard plus £ and € above 3. \ is in a sensible logical place - on the left next to Z where it should be. If / is on the right, it makes sense that \ is on the left next to Z. \ should never be above or forward of /. Thats stupid. Its BACKslash. " and @ are also swapped on the US layout. Why.
Same here from a La-Latin1-ISO keyboard. ANSI keyboard layout is a mess to me.
Nice a new PC video about old PC and keyboard I really like and waiting patiently about your new video
There was a Tandy 2000 at Portland Retro Gaming Expo a couple years ago that I almost bought... I kick myself for letting that go by. :(
I love having Ctrl where Caps Lock traditionally is now. I use Ctrl so much more than Caps and having it right next to A is far superior IMO.
I'm too used to having them where they are to change them, but I can very much see why people do this.
As a side note, Unicomp sells swapped Ctrl and Caps Lock keycaps for Model M keyboards. 🙂
I've remapped my Caps Lock key to be Compose. (I'm fine with Control living down in the corner.)
Nice Bill Gates impression, and always happy to see favorite TH-camrs getting plugged....
Keyboards sold today aren't built like tanks the way these were or they have other problems. I returned a Corsair gaming keyboard that was built rugged but the T key failed followed by the R key. Turned out to be a common problem. I'm currently on a cheap amazon backlit keyboard where the keys frequently pop off if you hit them off center too hard. Still looking for a good backlit keyboard (no RGB animation needed or wanted) with decent key mechanisms.
Hi, for what seems like eternity - 1986 to 1997 at work we had terminal keyboards as the main computer system was mini based.
We used 122 key - keyboards F1 to F24, then some extra keys for clear screen, erase to end of field, and erase to end of line - most of the early ones 286/386 were very heavy all metal honeywell keyboards as the Pc's were actually very base pc's with floppy or eprom boot to terminal emulator
Later on in late 486 days, we had generic PC clones with all of the the pc's based on windows 95/98 - and yes still the 122 keyboard for operation to talk to the host mini's
My mother is still coping with pre-WWII typewriters being retired and being replaced with keyboards. Both electric and computer.
And, no... she's not octogenarian. Countries under Soviet control (Eastern Europe) used mechanical typewriters until '80s. She was a typist in her government run enterprise. Baby boomer. Still smacks every button, key, touch screen to this very day😑
Secretaries in the U.S. were still trained to type on a manual typewriter in the 1980s, too, just in case they had to use one.
My long-deceased was the same: her typing sounded like a Gatling gun. The need to make carbon copies meant robust typing was necessary. Those ladies were incredible. Another skill they all had was shorthand.
The TRS-80 Model 4P and later models of the standard Model 4 had inverted T arrow keys before Tandy's IBM clones.
The print screen button never did anything when I pressed it, just like I couldn't find the "any key", and pressing Tab didn't give me a drink.
I believe you could (still can) buy a "any key" cap to solve this specific problem 🤭
I think the IBM PC Keyboard layout is largely a symptom of the keyboard assembly itself being shared with other non-PC systems. For example, the System/23 Datamaster that came slightly before PC and the 5250-compatible 5291/5292 Display Stations that came slightly after having the same physical layout. I feel like maybe economies of scale and 'overcorrecting' for reducing cost and variance compared to beamspring-based keyboards played a part? All 3 of the aforementioned systems adopted the IBM 5250 data typewriter layout. maybe just with different legends and only a few minor tweaks to minimise the need for large key stabilisers. As someone who grew up with ISO, it never bothers me though.
I think it's fair to thank DEC and Tandy for moving things towards the eventual Enhanced layout, but going back to beamspring keyboards, it's interesting to note a lot of 'experimenting' by IBM on Model B keyboards in the '70s that eventually came full circle. For example, IBM 4978 keyboards from 1978 have what resemble ANSI left shift and Enter, IBM 3732 keyboards from 1978 (despite also nailing down the ISO layout) have a clearly separate arrow key cluster (though in a plus shape), and the 92-key versions of the IBM 5253/5254 Display Station and Displaywriter keyboards from 1978 and 1979 respectively had ANSI style left shift and an Enter key similar to this Tandy keyboard. Earlier in 1983, IBM introduced the 104-key Model F "unsaver" for IBM 3290 which had a lot more function keys (though not segregated) and a nav cluster very close to Enhanced.
My first home pc was a Tandy 1000. Not the first one I used (Those were Sinclair, BBC and SORD). Loved it, its keyboard. Transitioning to el chipo clones with all over hodge podge keyboards in the late 80's early 90's was a b!tch.
This was great 👍
I think it was Tandy 1000 TL keyboard I liked. Arrow keys had home in middle. Arrow keys lay out was not upside down T it was a cross ✝️. So home was in middle of cross and up above down below home key
The 8-Bit Guy showed a keyboard with an arrangement like that, but it was not a Tandy keyboard.
"It's Colin how's it going"?
Scroll lock was useful in Lotus 1-2-3 and it still works in Excel.
So does the slash key!
Hei, today we have @ThisDoesNotCompute doing some guest voice over. Many guests in recent videos !
I’ve always wondered why they never added a key in the position of what would become the win key on the model M
most used keys need some space around so that the hand can seek keys "by touch". For example cursor keys are isolated. Imagine having 5 extra keys around the cursor keys... it would be a nightmare to type.
Just to clear the path for the eventual evolution of the keyboard to include a Pizza key, of course. Way too early back then, before the Internet was flourishing in every household.
Are you aware of the IBM F104 "unsaver" and F122 "battleship?" These keyboards, mostly intended for IBM terminals, were the progenitor of the Model M's layout. If you look at them, they're allot closer to the M layout than the XT or AT. They were introduced in mid 1983 and early 1984 respectively.
But notably, they still hadn't fixed allot of the things that you mention that the Tandy 1000/2000 did. They did put the function keys on top, but didn't group them (and there were 24 of them, not 12.) They isolated the navigation keys, but in a crosspad design, not an inverted T. The keyboard itself still had something closer to the ISO layout, they overcompensated with too many buttons on the numpad, they left a bank of extra keys to the left of the typing area, and there were still no lock lights (though the terminals these came with did have permanent indicators on the display.)
It's almost like they took the things they got right with the F104/F122, and pasted the things that they liked about the Tandy keyboard on top.
The Rainbow was also intended as a VT, CP/M, and MS-DOS machine. At least in VT mode, the F11 key on the LK201 serves as an Escape key (when talking to a Linux box, anyway) and all of those keys do something in a full-screen forms app written for an OS like VMS.
Not so sure about MS-DOS though. I haven’t been blessed with any OS disks for mine.
Some modern compact keyboards move the right-shift key, like the K400r. It slowed me down enough, I moved to a Motospeed model instead.
You'll have a hard time finding Tandy 2000's, as they didn't sell well and became store fixtures.
IIRC, when the Tandy 1000 came out, the stores moved the Tandy 2000's to the back room, for internal use. They were used for Invetory, Payroll, etc. At the end of each day, it would modem in sales numbers and more.
This kept Tandy on the leading edge, at least for management.
But they were so obsolete and worn out when replaced, that they were just disposed.
Thou shall not speak ill of the Model F/M 😉
Wouldn't it be better if the labels for the function keys were software controllable rather than paper you have to keep swapping in and out? Oh no! I just invented the Touch Bar! There's another flop though that one might not have a legacy worthy of a video from you in 30 years.
That's essentially what so much software did by putting a legend on the bottom row of the screen.
You must be the first person to point out where IBM got much of their inspiration for the Model M from; everyone else just echoes the same sentiment that IBM’s influential design was one entirely of their own creation. Interesting to learn that isn’t entirely true.
It's like a transitional fossil for computing!
Being from Europe I assure you the difference between ISO and the US shift and enter is so small you will get used to in like 5 minutes, in fact i see no problem having iso on pc and us on a laptop etc as long as its still america english layout though i never gave the british layout a try to be fair. In here they sell both US and ISO style keyboards with the american/international layout
You didn't mention the Keytronics KB5151 which by 1985 had all the features you mentioned.
Almost... it only has 10 F-keys, and the cursor keys are an inconvenient diamond layout with a dummy key in the middle. It also still requires you to press Shift to get a Print Screen.
@@vwestlife True enough, but it was a viable alternative for the IBM PC. Mine was the first keyboard I owned for my Columbia MPC 1600 and I still have both!
They did make several keyboard template for popular software for it (I remember Word Perfect) I had one or two somewhere... Looking at it, it does have indicator lights for the Num Lock, Cursr Pad and Caps Lock. It also has 2 unmarked mystry keys, maybe I can configure them for a Windows Key? 🙂
I do remember how nice it was to have a separate numeric keypad and cursor keys. Unlike the RGB whiz-bang keyboards of today, it is built like a tank!
Ha, Colin as Bill!
Tandy inventor of the first gamer keyboard.
Wow. Throwback to the computer lab in elementry school before we got blessed with apple II
My personal favorite PC key combination of all time is Alt+F4. :D
Oddly many modern keyboard still have a "sys req" key.
Linux (optionally) features the Magic SysRq key. Pressing Alt+SysRq+KEY lets you send commands directly to the kernel. For example, pressing Alt+SysRq+U remounts all disks read-only, pressing Alt+SysRq+S syncs the disks, and Alt+SysRq+B forces a reboot. Came in quite handy back in the day. Wikipedia has a full list.
4:50 There are times where I kind of mourn how modern keyboards have mostly done away with the pen/pencil trays.
Some of IBM's terminals preceeded the 2000 with those layout changes (except for a diamond arrow key arrangement instead of inverted T).
I still think that it's the DEC keyboard that was copied, not Tandy one. It's a lot closer to the Model M, than Tandy
But IBM didn't seem to care about that until the Tandy 1000 was introduced in 1984, and then IBM hastily introduced the Model M in mid-1985. So yes, DEC did have the right idea, but it took competition from Tandy to get IBM to change their keyboard layout.
@@vwestlife Yeah, they definitely took a notice at Tandy, Model F layout was a mess
11:26 I laughed when you said that! Of course we know how great the PCjr keyboard is!!!!
IBM was a big typewriter manufacturer, and the driving force to reject the Dvorak layout. They ensured the continued use of the bad Sholes layout. When electric typewriters appeared, they could've introduced models with alphabetic layout to make iit easier to learn for beginners. They didn't do that either. It doesn't come as a surprise to me that they were worse than their competition once.
Yea septandy. You didn't show the f13-24 key keyboard. I'm not talking holding down the shift key either. :) I could be wrong and to lazy to look it up. But I think the SysRq was for IBM mainframes. I remember reading IBM was excited to come out with a card to connect the mainframe. TN3270 card I think.
"The keyboard. How quaint."
Cool 😀
when I first saw the PCjr keyboard in my early 20s, it was the first time that I start to doubt the infallibility of large corporations. Even to me it seems dumb.
I hope Radioshack relaunches Tandy
A LOT of computer OEMs are forgotten these days that were IBM compatible that were better than IBM: Compaq, ALR, Gateway 2000, Hewitt Rand (granted those were just clones), AST, Hyundai, Daewoo, Mitsubishi, Leading Edge, Micron, Commodore, etc. All of these were cheaper, way more upgradable (very arguably Compaq was not), and had their own contributions to the then growing PC market.
Just because something is still around doesn't mean it's better, it just had better market penetration (education/government helps a lot here), adoption, and very likely boils down to better marketing.
i am pleased with my Compaq KB-9963 PS/2 white
I remember using a tandy 2000 !
OK
The keyboard layout was good. The 1000 was what the PC Jr -should- have been.
Using cursor keys on earlier 80s micros sort of sucked.
question at 10:45, do not all new reasent IBM compatibles just double up f1 to f12 with shift or control key, I'm not that up on the subjet, none of my software uses more 12 f key?
Did you equalize your voice somehow? Sounds so relaxing (no homo :D)
And here I am sitting now on a Mechanical Keyboard with RGB LED's Built into every single key and using a piece of software to change the colour of those LED's when the LOCK keys Enable / Disable but not just for the lock in question but also for all the keys affected by said lock. Those keys will turm from my usual colourshift blue/purple scheme to Orange when the lock is on also the same is true for the shift key. and its affected keys.
I also used the same software to turn the ESC, F1-12, and G6-G9 (Logitech Macro Keys) of my G910 into an Analog Clock. Where One function key lights up red to denote the hour hand, ESC is an AM/PM Indicator with RED for PM, and The F1-12 keys Light Orange for each 5 minute interval with the G6-G9 Keys showing orange for Minute 1 to Minute 4 of the next 5 minute interval. The hour display will also flash when the highest miniute indicator overlaps the hour indicator for example 1:05-1:09 2:10-214 3:15-319 Etc etc so one can see the minute indicatror below it.
Minutes Indicator also changes from Orange to Magenta on the quarter and half hours (15, 30, and 45 mins)
I Hid a Flashing Green "Second Hand" that displays Seconds in the same manner as Minutes display but flashing so as to avoid the overlay but this only shows when you enable the scroll lock because it was annoying when always on and it gave me a use for the scroll lock key..
I also added a "Word Clock" Function where for 5 Seconds on the hour the words "ONE" "TWO" "THRE" "FOUR" "FIVE" "SIX" "SEVN" "EIGHT" "NIE" "TEN" "ELVN" or "TWELV" will blink red in the keyboard.
Really How usefull is all of this? Not so much haha but it was a fun thing to try to make the keyboard do.
the ctrl placement is ridiculous
anyone has the link to the full video by This Does Not Compute?
There is none. He recorded the voiceover specifically for this video.
@vwestlife I have a Tandy 2000 (dual floppy model) in great condition I could extend-loan to the channel for a video. Get in touch. Even have the "digi- mouse"! :)
I haven't watched the whole video yet, but let's face it, about the only thing wrong with the Tandy keyboard is the stupid HOLD key....
Om my word that Tandy 1000 Keyboard sound is my childhood in a nutshell....
But Ours unlike yours had the Left shift key properly positioned next to ZED rather than ZEE because it was purchased and used in Canada.
I've heard Canadians pronounce it both ways.
buckling spring!!!!! King!
Modern desk layout should have the Number Pad on the other side to work with the mouse. (Yes, I'm a heretic.)
See my video about the "mouse-friendly" keyboard.
Useless fun fact: if you have a keyboard that's programmable according to the QMK standard, you can still have 24 function keys today!