After watching many of your videos here is my process. First I clean the brass then I anneal the brass next full length resize using a Hornady full length sizing die with the decapping pin and expander left in then I use a mandrel that is .001 less than the specific caliber that I am resizing. This process has yielded excellent results for me. For example my .223 groups less than .25 at 100 and I can get consistence hits at 600 yards using 60 grain V-max bullets. My 6 Creedmoor has excellent results at 1000 yards using Berger 109 hybrid bullets. I might ad that my reloading equipment is NO Where Near as nice as yours and is rudimentary at best, I gave up on bushing dies because the full length die and mandrel yielded better results for me. I really appreciate all the info you share and it has certainly helped me!!
Thank you for your videos. Recreationally, I shoot 6.5 Creedmoor, 147 grain bullet, 41.3 grains, with RL16. From your previous videos, I’ve settled on a Redding Type S full length sizing die with a .289 TiN Bushing backed out a half turn and without an expander ball on the decapper. Then I dry lube the inside of the necks and size with a Sinclair carbide .263 mandrel. The advantage of this process is my donuts detected by a pin gage have disappeared as compared to the Forrester full length sizing die without expander die followed by the .263 mandrel. Four five shot groups have the following SD/ES’s: 3-7, 3-7, 4-13, 5-14 were measured using a Magento Speed Sporter. Again, thank you for your videos. They are an excellent source of ideas for a recreational shooter who reloads his own cartridges
I generally purchase once-fired brass. I anneal my brass after 5 firings. First, I let my brass churn in my large Dillon vibratory cleaner for a few hours. I full-length resize before first reload. After that, I neck-size on subsequent loadings. I have noticed that my annealed cases tolerate many more reloading than non-annealed cases. I mostly reload 7mm Rem Mag, 308 Win, 300 Win Mag, 30-06 Springfield, 338 Lapua Mag and 408 Cheytac. I am saving for a 375 Cheytac. I really enjoy your videos, learning some new thing from each one.
On AMP website I saw mention of neck brushing after annealing and have found smoother seating since incorporating this step. Would be interesting to see this compared on the AMP press (seating after annealing with and w/o neck brushing).
Good video. I'm surprised that more people have not discovered the Lee specific caliber neck sizer. It works off the mandrel principle and allows for different thicknesses of brass beautifully. Hey, I don't work for Lee at all, but this Lee Collet necks sizing collet is a super tool for rounding out and sizing that new brass as well as doing the same for fired brass. Keep 'em small.
I’m new to reloading and I bought some new RP brass. I FL sized it in my Redding die without bumping the shoulder. It has worked good. It’s a 7RM so no lapua option, but Nosler brass was available. It’s over priced Norma brass, but I went for it. It says ready to load, no prep needed! So I loaded 15. Lol. Felt like trash seating the bullets (160gr Accubonds), no consistency at all. Performance was okay. I will FL size the rest and then start using them. Lesson learnt!
@@emirkazic4493 In my testing with new unfired lapua srp & lrp 6.5cm I have found that the headspace is also all over the map, ranging from 1.532 to 1.535. I know right. Lol,,. I use my deconstructed Forster fls die, like I would if it was fire formed to set the shoulders back to 1.533. The cases where the head space is already below 1.533,,, well my die can't touch it,, set it back any further, so all is good with them. I then follow up with the 21Century expanding mandrel. I load them hot to fully fire form them on the first shot so I don't have to wasted 3 more firings to blow the cases out. I do anneal them before prepping them also and after every firing. In reality, I don't do anything different, other than their not loaded as hot. Just me and my madness. Lol.
New brass always has the shoulder and case dimension set back to ensure feeding in any rifle. The only reason to run them through the die is to make sure the neck is at an acceptable diameter and is round. This is done only to promote bullet seating.
@@ctech01 .003 variance to me doesn’t seem awful? I had fl sized factory loaded ammo, all hornady American whitetail, but various lots. My ideal comparator measurement was 2.123; but I found it varied a bit so I got some 2.121 and some 2.124. I assume that’s because of the different lots of brass plus minute play in the press? I’m using a Lyman Victory press with Redding FL sizing die. Or is this purely a result of the different lots of brass used in each box of ammo? So my bags of brass that are new should be more consistent?
@@emirkazic4493 My money is on different allotments of brass. I mainly shoot Lapua in the 6.5CM and from box to box there is quite a bit of differences between the allotments. I find the same in 223 Lake city brass as well. With factory loaded ammo,, Hornady per say, especially the ones that say MATCH AMMO. Before you fire them, check and compare the head space and CBTO and OAL and weigh the cartridge's. Then chrono them on a Labradar or Magneto speed chronograph. That will make you really scratch your head. LOL.
After watching your video on the SAC bushings I contacted them and found that they are out and nearly two months away from having more bushings. So I've ordered a die and mandrel for my 25-06 to use on my cases. All of my brass has been fired and annealed a couple of times. I will anneal after every firing. Good info.
I just happened to prepare 300 rounds of 6.5CM Sig brass before I saw your video. My procedure was as follows: 1. Anneal with my GinaErick induction annealer. 2. Size with Forster FL die with expander spindle. Using Rockchucker press. 3. Open neck up with K&M mandrel die. 4. Turn necks to 13thou with K&M kit. 5. Clean brass. 6. Anneal again. 7. Size again with Forster FL die. 8. Mandrel using 21st Century Expander mandrel (0.263”) from their turning kit - resulting in neck tension of about 1.5thou. It does more neck tension than K&M mandrel (0.265”). 9. Clean again. 10. Debur primer pilot hole. 11. Debur neck.
I use a Lee collet neck sizing die with a .002 oversize mandrel. This irons out the imperfections in the neck that are common with "bulk" brass and expands it to something similar to what I get with my fired brass, just loose enough so that a bullet will easily slip into the neck with hand pressure. I then go through a bushing die, using the same bushing that I use on my fired cases to bring the dimensions back down to what I would do on fired cases. This is a FL sizing die set to bump the shoulder on fired cases, but doesn't move the shoulder on virgin brass. In my case, I am using a .289 bushing. I have verified that a .291 doesn't hold bullet tightly enough, so finger pressure can move it. My hoped result is that (a) I expanded to mimic a fired case and (b) bushing to achieve the same neck tension as with fired cases.
I really think that initial spike is spring setback in the shoulder before the bullet begins to seat. Then it slips as it breaks static friction and initial hoop strength of the brass. From there load climbs proportional to surface area. In your Forester/bushing and mandrel tests, the spike is higher because you had an extra work hardening operation on the neck...just my theory.
@@Russell-1 suppose so if you want to get all technical about it...or one could say that since I know and have evidence that seating pressure can in fact cause the shoulder to measurably yield and still allow the bullet to seat and I know and have evidence that work hardening the neck increases seating pressure it's a theory that requires further testing.
My new unfired brass is full length resized using LE Wilson die, then chased with 262 mandrel. For new brass, I don't shoot for accuracy and load development is done for the most part. The only reason I follow this process is to standardize the brass due to inconsistent necks due to shipping - no other reason. Shooting for groups is done with fired brass, so I am not so concerned with the new brass prep. With this in mind, accuracy is outstanding using Lapua brass in both my 6BRA and 6.5CM - might be overthinking this....
This is an excellent analysis. You can observe marginal, yet detectable effect of annealing on the a) height of the first peak, and b) depth of the first well in your force-response graphs. After averaging pre-annealed brass shows the least initial resistance.
I’d like to see how a Lee collet die does in your neck tension testing. I use the Lee collet die instead of my Redding collet die then a mandrel to set neck tension. Works very good based on sd’s and on paper.
I am going to test it but not with new brass. I will publish the stats on these as well when I fire them. Graph doesn't mean much if the stats don't back it up.
I'm with you all the way. I use a Forster FLS die -W. I have found out recently that not all Forster FLS dies are created equally Like -Y and -Z. My -W on my Forster press works great. My 2 other buddies, one with the -Y just sent his back to Forster and the buddy, with the -Z had to sand down his Lee shell case holder .0015 in order to bump the shoulder back to 1.533. I use mine with out the expanding ball and stem. Then I use the 21Century expanding mandrel to set my case neck tension. I still learning to use my hydro press and I'm starting to get good consistent numbers with it on the last 3 loadings. " Yes,, you do have to develop a feel for it" It just doesn't spit out the numbers magically. LOL. It takes work, patience and practice to get the correct readings. The Amp Press takes all the guess work out of it. So I think. Great informative video Sir. I can't wait for the follow up video with the fired cases. Thank You.
Thank you Sir! I think that the data is very interesting and I am very optimistic that we will be able to learn some interesting things with this press. This press is not for everyone, but I hope that some can look past the cost and just at the data it provides and still learn some things that we didn't already know. (Plus I love graphs if you couldn't tell already) Visual representation always helps me understand and I hope the audience as well. I am sure going to rethink some of my processes based on the data.
I've always done universal decapping die, full length die with decapping pin and expander removed for a .002 shoulder bump. Then expander mandrel in .262". Seems fairly consistent to my unskilled mind with no tools to measure. Lol, should have watched too the end, yours is the same process as mine.
I do exactly the same thing. I can bring myself to buy a bushing die to get the same result and to also add steps. I always remind myself not to get too scientific about something so simple
Very interesting data, did you use dry lube in case of the Foster full length option with expander ball as well. Maybe variation roots in the inhomogenous application of the dry lube. I guess that ultrasonic cleaning does nitot fully remove the dry lube. Are you planning on a seating force comparison between full length sizing + expander ball vs full length sizing + mandrel. That would be very interesting,.. Thanks for the nice video!!!
If your going to start with new brass you might as well document it so good job. A couple of questions. What angle do you use for your champers? Did you champer the new cases? Have you noticed any difference on paper with the Short Action Custom Bushing? Looking forward to results from this series
HI Spike, I use a VLS hand tool for new brass and I mostly use my Giraud trimmer for trimming fired and sized brass. I will be looking more in depth at the SAC bushings coming up!
Thank you for the awesome videos! The results you gathered in this video, has that changed your thoughts when it comes to new brass prep? Or is it to early to make any conclusions on these results!? Would be really interesting to see if annealing, FL size with bushings (SAC) without shoulder bump, and use of a mandrel to open up the necks would yield a better result..? Thx man and keep videos coming 🤩🙏🏻🤙🏻
Looking forward to seeing on target results. Would also be very interested to see the standard process with the new brass. One question - maybe I missed it - what did you do for ensuring consistent length / trimming & chamfering?
Not on new brass. (For me anyway) If you look at the beginning of the charts there is a small difference but keep in mind that Lapua brass is pretty consistent too
interesting. I am pretty new at this, and what i did with my new lapua cases was -lube and full length size -size neck with a 2thou under expander mandrel -check length -chamfer I for one dont have access to an anealer, it is very interesting that the forster die even with expander mandrel showed the most consistant results. i am having issue with High ES and SD numbers, i bought the expander mandrel die hoping it would help, but i still have an ES of 51 and SD of 24,
Love videos like this. Thanks. Can you measure the diameter of the expander ball in the Forester die? That graph was the most surprising to me. Carbide or SS ball?
One experiment that I want to see is using case wax on the expander mandrel. I did that (as an experiment) but before I seated the bullets I used a Forster nylon neck brush. I got Several loads with an SD of 7 or under. Easily the best I have ever gotten
My understanding, though I can't recall explicitly stated, is the wax can chemically contaminate the powder thus use graphite for inside the neck. This would probably be random depending on excess wax and months or years of storage. Probably would not show on load development since it's quick
@@aeroderek The way I did it there wouldn't be enough wax to contaminate anything. I rubbed a bit directly on the expander mandrel and cycled around 50 cases. After I got the cases prepped and primed I did the nylon brush with the powder from Forster. I didn't plan on it. I just did it by accident. My first 5 shot string got me an SD of 7. I repeated it even with different loads and I think the lowest SD was 5.9 or something like that. I had at least 4 or more strings (during load development) that were all in the mid single digits.
@@tyler6147 Agreed 100%, I use imperial sizing wax on the case and in the neck. Then a quick wipe with a cloth and a quick ream with a Q-tip in the neck. After priming the case I lube the neck with imperial dry lube. Then I charge the case with powder and seat the bullet. Works great for me.😎
If you remove the expander ball from the Forster die, what does it size the neck to? The expander balls are 0.001 under and supposed to give 0.002 neck tension. I'm wondering how much the brass is being worked. Also curious if you think/find that the neck tension varies if you first size all the brass, then switch to the expander process afterward allowing the brass to "set" between steps. Thank you for another great video.
ive been learning about reloading for the past month. just when i think im getting a grasp on it i hear about annealing and neck turning and why use mandrels or bushings over expander balls.... my brain hurts but its fun. i now see why they say reloading isnt really a way to save money
I don’t anneal new brass, and was also taught that it’s over stressing the brass needlessly to full length resize brand new brass. (?). I remove the expander ball and just run a .002 less mandrel through the necks and go from there. Of course on next firing, anneal, full length resize, then mandrel, so I’m just not doing two of those steps the first time, so may be being overly cautious and should just do it all from new brass on. FINALLY, I wish someone would explain to me (and I’ve asked in several threads) why I’d ever use a Redding S bushing or SAC bushing on the OD diameter of the neck, THEN use an ID mandrel? You’re setting neck tension on the bullet from the outside of the neck with a bushing, then resetting it inside the neck with a mandrel? Just don’t get it, one or the other. I full length size then mandrel, one and done, and for hunting or precision rifle .002 neck tension with a 21st Century turning arbor seems perfect. F class is another matter, and in that case I’d probably get the whole set of 21st mandrels you have there so I could really fine tune the neck tension. I might want to try that nice SAC bushing in a Redding resizing bushing die, but that would be instead of mandrel, not in addition to.
I didn't hear you mention turning the neck. If you didn't, I would guess its possible. That you would see more consistency in all the methods used and possibly one that didn't do well could shine.
I think measuring seating force only tells part of the story. The un-seating when the cartridge is fired is a bit of a different action. In my limited experience, and based on accuracy alone, i have always found a Lee factory crimp to shoot as well or better than not. I have turned case necks and not found the accuracy gains in an identical load that i have crimped only.
Surely, the next experiment to to combine Forester FLS dies and AMP 161 annealing. These parameters are orthogonal to each other , so need to be tested in combination
On new brass I reduce my load just use the sizing ball on necks after fired I like the mandrels you don’t want to take brass from the bottom streatching it toward top of brass with a hot load but I start after once fired only let the mandrel go through. The doughnut not to far 25 to 40 on seating I’m just a old man take that with a grain of salt I anneal after first firing loading is fun to try to keep new ideals to try for more accuracy you know how it goes we will try anything that’s safe to get that ultimate accuracy lol
Thanks for your meticulous work!! It would be interesting to know the eccentricity (run out) of brass after FL sizing with the Forster die - I presume you still used the decapping spindle with the internal mandrel- didn't you?
How about a study with the best result method, but using and not using molly inside the neck? And do you plan a study with many times fired brasses (fired 15 times or more)?
I don't think it's fair to give runout measurements at this stage since the outside of the case body would not have been sized. For fired brass absolutely.
I have heard lots of comments good and bad about various things like this. I really want to baseline my current processes before I start mixing different neck lubes into the process. I did a case lube test and really didn't see a huge change.
What’s wrong with the forsner expander that comes with the full length die? Not the proper tension your looking for or to much inconsistency compared to the mandrel?? Or what about using a neck die only? Just trying to figure out the best method for me with the tools I have available. I have a new lot of lapua brass for .308 On inspection my cases and specifically necks all look good. Inside diameter measures .303-.305. I ran a handful of cases that had small dings in the neck through my neck die and ID was the same at .303-.305 I only have an initial pressure test ladder loaded up so far of 10 rounds working up to max load of 45grains varget. .3 grain incrimiments but this is just an initial “safety” ladder and getting general info. I haven’t loaded in about 5 years, don’t own a chrono yet, and although I’d love to shoot out to 500 yards I didn’t really have access to a range farther than 200 so 200 yards is all I’m worried about for now… and developing my own hunting load once I can find some hunting bullets back in stock somewhere. I only have Varget, Winchester WLR large rifle primers and a couple different bullets to work with for now. Bullets are 167g lapua scenar 155g lapua scenar 168g matchking hpbt 150g Sierra partition (for hunting possibly) My first goal is to find whether my rifle likes 150g or 168g and fire form my lot of brass… I’d like to gain whatever knowledge I can while I’m fire forming though so I’m not just wasting power and bullets lol
I don't want to say anything is "wrong" but I have had much better luck with concentricity with just using the die without the stock expander and setting the Neck diameter with the expander mandrel. Results to this test are coming soon.
Does seating force actually provide a true measurement of neck tension? To test actual neck tension, wouldn't you need test equipment that would meter the force needed to pull the bullet out? It seems like a big assumption to say that the same seating force will always result in the same neck tension.
In my new Lapua brass, I'm measuring OD=0.290, ID=0.260, and neck thickness of 0.015. Your 0.287 SAC bushing and 0.262 mandrel means that you're sizing the neck thickness down to 0.012 (i.e. you're making the neck walls thinner). This seems unnecessary and I'm wondering if you'd get the same results using setting that don't thin out the walls so much.
I don't do any load build up or accuracy testing with new brass of any make. My first loads are for fireforming to my chamber. I resize all new brass in my die to establish at least a starting point for the cases. I do nothing other than check case OL before I load and fireform. After forming, then I'll worry about any neck turning, trimming, neck sizing, whatever. To me, it just seems like a waste of time to put into new brass.
Those same well respected people saying to fire form brass before starting load devolpment will also be seeing the nonsense of focusing on neck tension before beginning the development process. This entire dynamic changes over time and requires neck turning to maintain consistency.
Would have liked to see Forster FL die with expander ball removed and ID set with .262" mandrel. But how will those lots of brass shoot? We have already seen where the lots with the most consistent seating force shoot poorly.
I may very well follow this up with more options. Its hard to find a path until you have seen the data. The other consideration is there is much more to a load than neck tension. It isn't the necessarily the fault of Neck Tension that a load doesn't hold up. My comparison will focus more on the statistics of the load than the accuracy. I wonder after we have found a desired load can we go back to new brass and see if it holds up?
How did you arrive at a .287 Bushing size? I average new Lapua brass thickness to .0152 which calculates to a .291 or .292 bushing for .002 neck tension. Even with Hornady brass (thinnest) I only use a .289 neck bushing. You’re getting your best results with the Forrester FL die and I’m guessing it does not size the neck down as much as your .287 bushing.
Hi Mitchell, Yes, towards the end I thought that I mentioned that I plan on firing these cases and showing if there was any performance difference in the processes. I wanted it to be a separate video. Having too much in one video often confuses people so I am trying to keep it as simple as I can.
Please explain to me how you measure the weight measurements, how do you come to the weight, pressure measurement? Had you thought to measure the neck thickness after expanding the neck of the cases? Perhaps these cases should have their necks trimmed for a uniform thickness. You might become surprised how much metal the trimming process will remove at the neck to make the necks a 100% uniform thickness.
Hi George, You may want to check out my video on the AMP press to understand how this data is generated. th-cam.com/video/VgllKb16TaI/w-d-xo.html I assume you are talking about turning the necks and not trimming them? Seeing the graphs I believe that if someone wanted to turn necks before the first firing then they need to be very careful to make sure they are consistent across the lot. Right now I am trying to baseline some processes to understand the data the the press generates, then figure out how to act on the data it generates. I will be covering turned vs untuned necks in the future but you if I put 100 different options in one video no one would watch or understand it. Hope this makes sense. BAR
@@BoltActionReloading Yes I understand, and in most cases, the trimming of any rifle case it’s suggested to be fire formed into your rifles chamber first then you look at trimming it’s neck wall thickness because you might need to trim the inside of the case first then use the uniformed interior diameter as a rolling surface for the trimming of the outside of the cases neck to make the lot the same. But what I’ve experienced with a case lot purchase in the past with 100 cases of a single lot of 100 lapua cases of 338 lapua magnum due to their cost I used the Sinclair neck mandrill to uniform the necks prior to trimming the exterior of the lot of 100 cases to my rifles preferred chamber neck case thickness. I was using information I received from David Tubbs own website. This lot of cases have been a dream come true for me, I’m not at the 5 and 6 loading of these cases now without having to reanneal them. But what i discovered is that in my situation the 338 lapua brass was far from perfect from the very beginning. In other words Lapua brass is over rated.
sincere question: why would consistent seating effort matter? isn't consistent release of the bullet what gets best results? in other words, does consistent seating give consistent release?
I am not sure how you would think you were going to get consistent release with having a consistent process. Know what graphs are good / bad is still being researched at this point. If you didn't see some of the results of this I posted it here: th-cam.com/video/P16Mhe3TMFQ/w-d-xo.html
@@BoltActionReloading just because its hard to go up a hill doesn't mean it will be hard to go down, and vice-versa. I know consistency is important. I'm not being sarcastic, I just want to know if its a fact that consistent effort to seat a bullet equals consistent neck tension. I'm just a nobody asking questions. we might do ten things to produce good ammo, but maybe not all ten things are necessary. sorry to trouble you.
I don't use expander mandrels or do I anneal but plan to I was wondering if anyone has ever tried annealing with the mandrel of the correct size in the case. Seems to me if it cools down the neck tension would be more consistent. Does this make any sense
I am not sure how you plan to anneal, but I would not recommend trying the process you outline. Depending on method there will be issues. Keep in mind that the mandrel will cause additional heat load where you are trying to change the temperature the fastest as well as metal expands when heated.
Technically I did that with option7. These are all fun questions. I was really hoping to baseline these processes, then do some more testing when I get the results. More neck tension vs less, how critical is the force when you start seating, all of these things. We only get the new brass data one time in its life so I really wanted to see what the data says and if it matters on target. BAR
@@BoltActionReloading the other thing i really whated to ask (if you've not already tested it) is how critical variation in case/nexk length is, because in my mind neck tension is also connected not only to the displacement of the material, but also the contacting surface, soo that in my mind also plays a role, might be pointless, i don't know
@@BoltActionReloading the reason i ask about method 7 is because i got the idea the other day that it might work the neck a bit les if i could size it a bit less than my fl sizer already does, but i love my expander mandrels
Yes, I very much agree. This is a recommended practice by some, but I want to bring the data set that shows it. If you look in the charts you can see how the force drops after the busing no longer touched the case. I think its important to see what process has what affect, make that modification to test the affect on the graph, and ultimately see what shows up on paper. I thought this was basic enough to show folks that simply running the brass though your die does a pretty good job of making things consistent. I bet if I ran through the FL die and chased it with a .262 mandrel that initial peak force would come down a little. I want to be careful what I show, and not jump to any conclusions. Often bad data is worse than none. I don't want to lead anyone down the wrong path if I can help it.
Hi Jody I would not use the collet die on new brass to straighten out the necks. I would be afraid that the center rod might damage the necks that are a little further out of shape than some of the others. I will be testing this on fired brass hopefully soon.
@@BoltActionReloading uh oh. That's exactly what I just did to 50 rnds of new Lapua 6.5 creedmoor SRP. Out of the 50, only 4-5 had minimal resistance when running the collet die and bullet seating pressure was very consistent. Hopefully I didn't ruin any brass? What should I be looking for exactly?
The real thing I want to see from this test is how they performed. Waiting for that video. Might be like F-class John where the shittier graphs produced the best groups on paper.
There is a lot to learn with this press. It is giving us data points that we have never had before. (I preface this statement that I am not taking away any of Johns work, we are all trying to learn here) Johns "crappy" graphs have data in there that needs to be analyzed a little more I think. For example his best group was new brass no sizing, but it by far had the most neck tension total but *NOT* the most starting pressure. Other interesting points if you look at some of the first groups 2 (assuming he shot them in the order of seating) the fliers in the group were the one that had the graphs most out of family. At this point defining what a "crappy" graph is, is the effort at hand. Is it total seating force, starting pressure? Do we use it to just weed out the fliers? Looking at just the groups allows human error to corrupt the data set as well. I think with some time getting this dialed in will be amazing, but everyone in the community wants the answers yesterday. I hope that the audience will be patient while we work these things out.
@@BoltActionReloading I agree with everything you said. There's so much to learn with this new tool. I appreciate the effort that you all put into these videos and sharing your results!
I was just hoping to see if we can get more usable data during the fireforming. It would be great if there was more to be learned as we are burning through barrel life.
Hello, I don't really publish my contact details. I have a email in my "about section" but I get a lot if junk and can't answer everything that I would like. If you have a question I do try and respond to the comments when I can.
Hi Andrew, Yes I have been working on getting ready for this project for the last 6 months at least. I haven't seen the LRP brass from Lapua in since then, but they still have the SRP in stock.
Hi Justin, I really think that its a factor of how far it is resized down before it is sized up again. The bushing is only taking it down to .287 and the FL die is going down to .285. The bushing with the Expander still did pretty good.
I have been thinking through this and I think there is a zone of not enough difference between sizing and mandrel diameter. I haven't found a cartridge brass stress strain curve but if you are only straining where it starts to curve and not to a secant modulus region it might give inconsistent springback. Can you report starting, sized, and expanded diameter? probably with micrometer on OD to be precise enough. maybe the deltas will correlate with consistency in seating depth
Luna - the video explained what was going to be tested, how the measurements were going to be obtained & then clearly displayed the results (which were very interesting). What other results did you expect to see?
See how all these methods performed on target! th-cam.com/video/P16Mhe3TMFQ/w-d-xo.html
After watching many of your videos here is my process. First I clean the brass then I anneal the brass next full length resize using a Hornady full length sizing die with the decapping pin and expander left in then I use a mandrel that is .001 less than the specific caliber that I am resizing. This process has yielded excellent results for me. For example my .223 groups less than .25 at 100 and I can get consistence hits at 600 yards using 60 grain V-max bullets. My 6 Creedmoor has excellent results at 1000 yards using Berger 109 hybrid bullets. I might ad that my reloading equipment is NO Where Near as nice as yours and is rudimentary at best, I gave up on bushing dies because the full length die and mandrel yielded better results for me. I really appreciate all the info you share and it has certainly helped me!!
Thank you for your videos. Recreationally, I shoot 6.5 Creedmoor, 147 grain bullet, 41.3 grains, with RL16. From your previous videos, I’ve settled on a Redding Type S full length sizing die with a .289 TiN Bushing backed out a half turn and without an expander ball on the decapper. Then I dry lube the inside of the necks and size with a Sinclair carbide .263 mandrel. The advantage of this process is my donuts detected by a pin gage have disappeared as compared to the Forrester full length sizing die without expander die followed by the .263 mandrel. Four five shot groups have the following SD/ES’s: 3-7, 3-7, 4-13, 5-14 were measured using a Magento Speed Sporter. Again, thank you for your videos. They are an excellent source of ideas for a recreational shooter who reloads his own cartridges
I generally purchase once-fired brass. I anneal my brass after 5 firings. First, I let my brass churn in my large Dillon vibratory cleaner for a few hours. I full-length resize before first reload. After that, I neck-size on subsequent loadings. I have noticed that my annealed cases tolerate many more reloading than non-annealed cases. I mostly reload 7mm Rem Mag, 308 Win, 300 Win Mag, 30-06 Springfield, 338 Lapua Mag and 408 Cheytac. I am saving for a 375 Cheytac. I really enjoy your videos, learning some new thing from each one.
On AMP website I saw mention of neck brushing after annealing and have found smoother seating since incorporating this step. Would be interesting to see this compared on the AMP press (seating after annealing with and w/o neck brushing).
Good video. I'm surprised that more people have not discovered the Lee specific caliber neck sizer. It works off the mandrel principle and allows for different thicknesses of brass beautifully. Hey, I don't work for Lee at all, but this Lee Collet necks sizing collet is a super tool for rounding out and sizing that new brass as well as doing the same for fired brass. Keep 'em small.
I'm not as experienced as you, but I've always been told and have done full length resizing for new brass. That has been a fundamental process for me.
I’m new to reloading and I bought some new RP brass. I FL sized it in my Redding die without bumping the shoulder. It has worked good.
It’s a 7RM so no lapua option, but Nosler brass was available. It’s over priced Norma brass, but I went for it. It says ready to load, no prep needed! So I loaded 15. Lol. Felt like trash seating the bullets (160gr Accubonds), no consistency at all. Performance was okay. I will FL size the rest and then start using them.
Lesson learnt!
@@emirkazic4493 In my testing with new unfired lapua srp & lrp 6.5cm I have found that the headspace is also all over the map, ranging from 1.532 to 1.535. I know right.
Lol,,. I use my deconstructed Forster fls die, like I would if it was fire formed to set the shoulders back to 1.533. The cases where the head space is already below 1.533,,, well my die can't touch it,, set it back any further, so all is good with them.
I then follow up with the 21Century expanding mandrel. I load them hot to fully fire form them on the first shot so I don't have to wasted 3 more firings to blow the cases out. I do anneal them before prepping them also and after every firing. In reality, I don't do anything different, other than their not loaded as hot. Just me and my madness. Lol.
New brass always has the shoulder and case dimension set back to ensure feeding in any rifle.
The only reason to run them through the die is to make sure the neck is at an acceptable diameter and is round. This is done only to promote bullet seating.
@@ctech01 .003 variance to me doesn’t seem awful? I had fl sized factory loaded ammo, all hornady American whitetail, but various lots. My ideal comparator measurement was 2.123; but I found it varied a bit so I got some 2.121 and some 2.124. I assume that’s because of the different lots of brass plus minute play in the press? I’m using a Lyman Victory press with Redding FL sizing die.
Or is this purely a result of the different lots of brass used in each box of ammo? So my bags of brass that are new should be more consistent?
@@emirkazic4493 My money is on different allotments of brass. I mainly shoot Lapua in the 6.5CM and from box to box there is quite a bit of differences between the allotments. I find the same in 223 Lake city brass as well. With factory loaded ammo,, Hornady per say, especially the
ones that say MATCH AMMO. Before you fire them, check and compare the head space and CBTO and OAL and weigh the cartridge's. Then chrono them on a Labradar or Magneto speed chronograph.
That will make you really scratch your head. LOL.
Wow. That Forster die kicks ass
It would be interesting to see how it compares against other brand dies in this same test.
After watching your video on the SAC bushings I contacted them and found that they are out and nearly two months away from having more bushings. So I've ordered a die and mandrel for my 25-06 to use on my cases. All of my brass has been fired and annealed a couple of times. I will anneal after every firing. Good info.
Definitely just ordered the forester die and a few of the mandrels to give your method a try thanks for the quality info!
I just happened to prepare 300 rounds of 6.5CM Sig brass before I saw your video. My procedure was as follows:
1. Anneal with my GinaErick induction annealer.
2. Size with Forster FL die with expander spindle. Using Rockchucker press.
3. Open neck up with K&M mandrel die.
4. Turn necks to 13thou with K&M kit.
5. Clean brass.
6. Anneal again.
7. Size again with Forster FL die.
8. Mandrel using 21st Century Expander mandrel (0.263”) from their turning kit - resulting in neck tension of about 1.5thou. It does more neck tension than K&M mandrel (0.265”).
9. Clean again.
10. Debur primer pilot hole.
11. Debur neck.
I’m still using expander spindle in Forster FL die because 6.5CM is new to me and I’m not sure yet where I want my Forster die honed to.
I use a Lee collet neck sizing die with a .002 oversize mandrel. This irons out the imperfections in the neck that are common with "bulk" brass and expands it to something similar to what I get with my fired brass, just loose enough so that a bullet will easily slip into the neck with hand pressure. I then go through a bushing die, using the same bushing that I use on my fired cases to bring the dimensions back down to what I would do on fired cases. This is a FL sizing die set to bump the shoulder on fired cases, but doesn't move the shoulder on virgin brass. In my case, I am using a .289 bushing. I have verified that a .291 doesn't hold bullet tightly enough, so finger pressure can move it. My hoped result is that (a) I expanded to mimic a fired case and (b) bushing to achieve the same neck tension as with fired cases.
I really think that initial spike is spring setback in the shoulder before the bullet begins to seat. Then it slips as it breaks static friction and initial hoop strength of the brass. From there load climbs proportional to surface area. In your Forester/bushing and mandrel tests, the spike is higher because you had an extra work hardening operation on the neck...just my theory.
Michael - I think you mean ‘hypothesis’ not ‘theory’.
@@Russell-1 suppose so if you want to get all technical about it...or one could say that since I know and have evidence that seating pressure can in fact cause the shoulder to measurably yield and still allow the bullet to seat and I know and have evidence that work hardening the neck increases seating pressure it's a theory that requires further testing.
It would be a good idea to try and measure this with and without molly...
My new unfired brass is full length resized using LE Wilson die, then chased with 262 mandrel. For new brass, I don't shoot for accuracy and load development is done for the most part. The only reason I follow this process is to standardize the brass due to inconsistent necks due to shipping - no other reason. Shooting for groups is done with fired brass, so I am not so concerned with the new brass prep. With this in mind, accuracy is outstanding using Lapua brass in both my 6BRA and 6.5CM - might be overthinking this....
This is an excellent analysis. You can observe marginal, yet detectable effect of annealing on the a) height of the first peak, and b) depth of the first well in your force-response graphs. After averaging pre-annealed brass shows the least initial resistance.
I’d like to see how a Lee collet die does in your neck tension testing. I use the Lee collet die instead of my Redding collet die then a mandrel to set neck tension. Works very good based on sd’s and on paper.
I am going to test it but not with new brass. I will publish the stats on these as well when I fire them. Graph doesn't mean much if the stats don't back it up.
I do the same and have had awesome results. I also like the fact that I'm working the brass less with this method.
Making my head hurt trying to learn how to reload. I will get it eventually but damn there is a lot more to this than one would think 😂
Looking forward to the results. Doing a good job!
Thanks!
I'm with you all the way. I use a Forster FLS die -W. I have found out recently that not all Forster FLS dies are created equally Like -Y and -Z. My -W on my Forster press works great. My 2 other buddies, one with the -Y just sent his back to Forster and the buddy, with the -Z had to sand down his Lee shell case holder .0015 in order to bump the shoulder back to 1.533. I use mine with out the expanding ball and stem. Then I use the 21Century expanding mandrel to set my case neck tension. I still learning to use my hydro press and I'm starting to get good consistent numbers with it on the last 3 loadings. " Yes,, you do have to develop a feel for it" It just doesn't spit out the numbers magically. LOL. It takes work, patience and practice to get the correct readings. The Amp Press takes all the guess work out of it. So I think. Great informative video Sir. I can't wait for the follow up video with the fired cases. Thank You.
Thank you Sir! I think that the data is very interesting and I am very optimistic that we will be able to learn some interesting things with this press. This press is not for everyone, but I hope that some can look past the cost and just at the data it provides and still learn some things that we didn't already know. (Plus I love graphs if you couldn't tell already) Visual representation always helps me understand and I hope the audience as well. I am sure going to rethink some of my processes based on the data.
@@BoltActionReloading I am by far a data junkie, Bring it. I'm salivating just thinking about.
I've always done universal decapping die, full length die with decapping pin and expander removed for a .002 shoulder bump. Then expander mandrel in .262". Seems fairly consistent to my unskilled mind with no tools to measure.
Lol, should have watched too the end, yours is the same process as mine.
I do exactly the same thing. I can bring myself to buy a bushing die to get the same result and to also add steps. I always remind myself not to get too scientific about something so simple
Very interesting data, did you use dry lube in case of the Foster full length option with expander ball as well. Maybe variation roots in the inhomogenous application of the dry lube. I guess that ultrasonic cleaning does nitot fully remove the dry lube. Are you planning on a seating force comparison between full length sizing + expander ball vs full length sizing + mandrel. That would be very interesting,..
Thanks for the nice video!!!
You site is amazing 👏. Learning a lot and helping me with my reloading.
Thanks and appreciate.
👍🇿🇦
Glad you enjoy it!
I’ve been seeing consistent 1/4” groups at 100 using the same bushing and mandrel in my resizing process post annealing.
If your going to start with new brass you might as well document it so good job. A couple of questions. What angle do you use for your champers? Did you champer the new cases? Have you noticed any difference on paper with the Short Action Custom Bushing? Looking forward to results from this series
HI Spike, I use a VLS hand tool for new brass and I mostly use my Giraud trimmer for trimming fired and sized brass. I will be looking more in depth at the SAC bushings coming up!
I had been using a lee neck only die on new brass. Looks like im going to stock with my Forester FL die.
Thank you for the awesome videos! The results you gathered in this video, has that changed your thoughts when it comes to new brass prep? Or is it to early to make any conclusions on these results!? Would be really interesting to see if annealing, FL size with bushings (SAC) without shoulder bump, and use of a mandrel to open up the necks would yield a better result..? Thx man and keep videos coming 🤩🙏🏻🤙🏻
Hi Martin, I need to see the data on target and possibly try a couple other combinations. Glad you enjoy the videos!
Looking forward to seeing on target results. Would also be very interested to see the standard process with the new brass. One question - maybe I missed it - what did you do for ensuring consistent length / trimming & chamfering?
Not on new brass. (For me anyway) If you look at the beginning of the charts there is a small difference but keep in mind that Lapua brass is pretty consistent too
Thank you for your research and all of the time that you spent.
Keep it up 👍
Thanks, I appreciate the positive comments!
interesting. I am pretty new at this, and what i did with my new lapua cases was
-lube and full length size
-size neck with a 2thou under expander mandrel
-check length
-chamfer
I for one dont have access to an anealer,
it is very interesting that the forster die even with expander mandrel showed the most consistant results.
i am having issue with High ES and SD numbers, i bought the expander mandrel die hoping it would help, but i still have an ES of 51 and SD of 24,
Love videos like this. Thanks. Can you measure the diameter of the expander ball in the Forester die? That graph was the most surprising to me. Carbide or SS ball?
Hi Wes. The expander ball is .262. I am not 100% sure the material.
I find I get more consistent results when I simply full length resize every time. Resize, trim chamfer and de-bur, tumble, and load.
Thanks for the video.
You are welcome!
Fantastic! Thank you for taking the time to create great content!
Thanks!
One experiment that I want to see is using case wax on the expander mandrel. I did that (as an experiment) but before I seated the bullets I used a Forster nylon neck brush. I got Several loads with an SD of 7 or under. Easily the best I have ever gotten
My understanding, though I can't recall explicitly stated, is the wax can chemically contaminate the powder thus use graphite for inside the neck. This would probably be random depending on excess wax and months or years of storage. Probably would not show on load development since it's quick
@@aeroderek The way I did it there wouldn't be enough wax to contaminate anything. I rubbed a bit directly on the expander mandrel and cycled around 50 cases. After I got the cases prepped and primed I did the nylon brush with the powder from Forster.
I didn't plan on it. I just did it by accident. My first 5 shot string got me an SD of 7. I repeated it even with different loads and I think the lowest SD was 5.9 or something like that. I had at least 4 or more strings (during load development) that were all in the mid single digits.
@@aeroderek A quick google shows several sources that say the kind of wax I am using has no effect on gunpowder.
@@tyler6147 Agreed 100%, I use imperial sizing wax on the case and in the neck. Then a quick wipe with a cloth and a quick ream with a Q-tip in the neck. After priming the case I lube the neck with imperial dry lube. Then I charge the case with powder and seat the bullet. Works great for me.😎
If you remove the expander ball from the Forster die, what does it size the neck to? The expander balls are 0.001 under and supposed to give 0.002 neck tension. I'm wondering how much the brass is being worked. Also curious if you think/find that the neck tension varies if you first size all the brass, then switch to the expander process afterward allowing the brass to "set" between steps. Thank you for another great video.
ive been learning about reloading for the past month. just when i think im getting a grasp on it i hear about annealing and neck turning and why use mandrels or bushings over expander balls.... my brain hurts but its fun. i now see why they say reloading isnt really a way to save money
Very interesting results! Dang thanks
I don’t anneal new brass, and was also taught that it’s over stressing the brass needlessly to full length resize brand new brass. (?). I remove the expander ball and just run a .002 less mandrel through the necks and go from there. Of course on next firing, anneal, full length resize, then mandrel, so I’m just not doing two of those steps the first time, so may be being overly cautious and should just do it all from new brass on.
FINALLY, I wish someone would explain to me (and I’ve asked in several threads) why I’d ever use a Redding S bushing or SAC bushing on the OD diameter of the neck, THEN use an ID mandrel? You’re setting neck tension on the bullet from the outside of the neck with a bushing, then resetting it inside the neck with a mandrel? Just don’t get it, one or the other. I full length size then mandrel, one and done, and for hunting or precision rifle .002 neck tension with a 21st Century turning arbor seems perfect. F class is another matter, and in that case I’d probably get the whole set of 21st mandrels you have there so I could really fine tune the neck tension. I might want to try that nice SAC bushing in a Redding resizing bushing die, but that would be instead of mandrel, not in addition to.
Could also do the fl sizer like you did, but chase thay with an mandrel 🤷🏻♂️
Have you thought about using a inside neck reamer? Please let us know your thoughts.....Always great videos!
I may have plans for this, but it will be a while. Glad you enjoy the content!
I didn't hear you mention turning the neck. If you didn't, I would guess its possible. That you would see more consistency in all the methods used and possibly one that didn't do well could shine.
I think measuring seating force only tells part of the story. The un-seating when the cartridge is fired is a bit of a different action. In my limited experience, and based on accuracy alone, i have always found a Lee factory crimp to shoot as well or better than not. I have turned case necks and not found the accuracy gains in an identical load that i have crimped only.
Would love to see the runout of the cases after the different approaches
Runout doesn’t matter. If .002 different seating depth or .1gr throw off your load, your load sucks.
Did you chamfer the inside of the necks in your process? Would be interesting to see if that yields different results.
Yes just a little
Surely, the next experiment to to combine Forester FLS dies and AMP 161 annealing. These parameters are orthogonal to each other , so need to be tested in combination
On new brass I reduce my load just use the sizing ball on necks after fired I like the mandrels you don’t want to take brass from the bottom streatching it toward top of brass with a hot load but I start after once fired only let the mandrel go through. The doughnut not to far 25 to 40 on seating I’m just a old man take that with a grain of salt I anneal after first firing loading is fun to try to keep new ideals to try for more accuracy you know how it goes we will try anything that’s safe to get that ultimate accuracy lol
excellent content thank you keep it coming
Thanks for your meticulous work!!
It would be interesting to know the eccentricity (run out) of brass after FL sizing with the Forster die - I presume you still used the decapping spindle with the internal mandrel- didn't you?
Glad you enjoy the content. I used the Forster FL die just like it comes with the internal ball expander, no mandrel.
What software gives such nice graphs?
How about a study with the best result method, but using and not using molly inside the neck? And do you plan a study with many times fired brasses (fired 15 times or more)?
I certainly have some things like this planned. Just have to get the logistics figured out.
How about full length size with bushing from redding..
thank you for the clarification!
However, did you also check the runout of the FL sized and expanded brass?
I don't think it's fair to give runout measurements at this stage since the outside of the case body would not have been sized. For fired brass absolutely.
Can you do this test with different brands of full-size dies?
Hi Mike, That is a very interesting idea! I have a huge series about different ways of sizing brass coming up but I will put it on the list.
thank you for doing this
I’ve had the best results using hornady one shot on a bore mop, wipe inside of the necks with the mop then go straight to the mandrel
I have heard lots of comments good and bad about various things like this. I really want to baseline my current processes before I start mixing different neck lubes into the process. I did a case lube test and really didn't see a huge change.
This might sound off base but data on pulling bullets in different configurations might be interesting or maybe not.
Hi Jan. I really don't know how to measure this reliably
What’s wrong with the forsner expander that comes with the full length die? Not the proper tension your looking for or to much inconsistency compared to the mandrel??
Or what about using a neck die only?
Just trying to figure out the best method for me with the tools I have available. I have a new lot of lapua brass for .308
On inspection my cases and specifically necks all look good. Inside diameter measures .303-.305. I ran a handful of cases that had small dings in the neck through my neck die and ID was the same at .303-.305
I only have an initial pressure test ladder loaded up so far of 10 rounds working up to max load of 45grains varget.
.3 grain incrimiments but this is just an initial “safety” ladder and getting general info. I haven’t loaded in about 5 years, don’t own a chrono yet, and although I’d love to shoot out to 500 yards I didn’t really have access to a range farther than 200 so 200 yards is all I’m worried about for now… and developing my own hunting load once I can find some hunting bullets back in stock somewhere.
I only have Varget, Winchester WLR large rifle primers and a couple different bullets to work with for now.
Bullets are 167g lapua scenar
155g lapua scenar
168g matchking hpbt
150g Sierra partition (for hunting possibly)
My first goal is to find whether my rifle likes 150g or 168g and fire form my lot of brass… I’d like to gain whatever knowledge I can while I’m fire forming though so I’m not just wasting power and bullets lol
I don't want to say anything is "wrong" but I have had much better luck with concentricity with just using the die without the stock expander and setting the Neck diameter with the expander mandrel. Results to this test are coming soon.
Thanks for sharing!
You bet!
Does seating force actually provide a true measurement of neck tension? To test actual neck tension, wouldn't you need test equipment that would meter the force needed to pull the bullet out? It seems like a big assumption to say that the same seating force will always result in the same neck tension.
I am wondering how there’s sevren different ways of doing this.
Great video!
Thanks!
In my new Lapua brass, I'm measuring OD=0.290, ID=0.260, and neck thickness of 0.015. Your 0.287 SAC bushing and 0.262 mandrel means that you're sizing the neck thickness down to 0.012 (i.e. you're making the neck walls thinner). This seems unnecessary and I'm wondering if you'd get the same results using setting that don't thin out the walls so much.
He's not changing the neck thickness. You can only do that by turning the necks.
I don't do any load build up or accuracy testing with new brass of any make. My first loads are for fireforming to my chamber. I resize all new brass in my die to establish at least a starting point for the cases. I do nothing other than check case OL before I load and fireform. After forming, then I'll worry about any neck turning, trimming, neck sizing, whatever. To me, it just seems like a waste of time to put into new brass.
Those same well respected people saying to fire form brass before starting load devolpment will also be seeing the nonsense of focusing on neck tension before beginning the development process. This entire dynamic changes over time and requires neck turning to maintain consistency.
Would have liked to see Forster FL die with expander ball removed and ID set with .262" mandrel. But how will those lots of brass shoot? We have already seen where the lots with the most consistent seating force shoot poorly.
I may very well follow this up with more options. Its hard to find a path until you have seen the data. The other consideration is there is much more to a load than neck tension. It isn't the necessarily the fault of Neck Tension that a load doesn't hold up. My comparison will focus more on the statistics of the load than the accuracy. I wonder after we have found a desired load can we go back to new brass and see if it holds up?
How did you arrive at a .287 Bushing size? I average new Lapua brass thickness to .0152 which calculates to a .291 or .292 bushing for .002 neck tension. Even with Hornady brass (thinnest) I only use a .289 neck bushing. You’re getting your best results with the Forrester FL die and I’m guessing it does not size the neck down as much as your .287 bushing.
Hi Ralph, the forster sizes down to .285 without the decapping rod.
Are you planning on shooting these then?
Hi Mitchell, Yes, towards the end I thought that I mentioned that I plan on firing these cases and showing if there was any performance difference in the processes. I wanted it to be a separate video. Having too much in one video often confuses people so I am trying to keep it as simple as I can.
@@BoltActionReloading Roger that. My b. Thanks for all the info!!
Why cant I run the brass through a regular resizing die
What type of expander mandrels? Maybe I missed that!
I use the ones from 21st century that come in .0005" increments
Very interesting 👌.
👍🇿🇦
Please explain to me how you measure the weight measurements, how do you come to the weight, pressure measurement? Had you thought to measure the neck thickness after expanding the neck of the cases? Perhaps these cases should have their necks trimmed for a uniform thickness. You might become surprised how much metal the trimming process will remove at the neck to make the necks a 100% uniform thickness.
Hi George, You may want to check out my video on the AMP press to understand how this data is generated. th-cam.com/video/VgllKb16TaI/w-d-xo.html I assume you are talking about turning the necks and not trimming them? Seeing the graphs I believe that if someone wanted to turn necks before the first firing then they need to be very careful to make sure they are consistent across the lot. Right now I am trying to baseline some processes to understand the data the the press generates, then figure out how to act on the data it generates. I will be covering turned vs untuned necks in the future but you if I put 100 different options in one video no one would watch or understand it. Hope this makes sense.
BAR
@@BoltActionReloading Yes I understand, and in most cases, the trimming of any rifle case it’s suggested to be fire formed into your rifles chamber first then you look at trimming it’s neck wall thickness because you might need to trim the inside of the case first then use the uniformed interior diameter as a rolling surface for the trimming of the outside of the cases neck to make the lot the same. But what I’ve experienced with a case lot purchase in the past with 100 cases of a single lot of 100 lapua cases of 338 lapua magnum due to their cost I used the Sinclair neck mandrill to uniform the necks prior to trimming the exterior of the lot of 100 cases to my rifles preferred chamber neck case thickness. I was using information I received from David Tubbs own website. This lot of cases have been a dream come true for me, I’m not at the 5 and 6 loading of these cases now without having to reanneal them. But what i discovered is that in my situation the 338 lapua brass was far from perfect from the very beginning. In other words Lapua brass is over rated.
sincere question: why would consistent seating effort matter? isn't consistent release of the bullet what gets best results? in other words, does consistent seating give consistent release?
I am not sure how you would think you were going to get consistent release with having a consistent process. Know what graphs are good / bad is still being researched at this point. If you didn't see some of the results of this I posted it here: th-cam.com/video/P16Mhe3TMFQ/w-d-xo.html
@@BoltActionReloading just because its hard to go up a hill doesn't mean it will be hard to go down, and vice-versa. I know consistency is important. I'm not being sarcastic, I just want to know if its a fact that consistent effort to seat a bullet equals consistent neck tension. I'm just a nobody asking questions. we might do ten things to produce good ammo, but maybe not all ten things are necessary. sorry to trouble you.
I don't use expander mandrels or do I anneal but plan to I was wondering if anyone has ever tried annealing with the mandrel of the correct size in the case. Seems to me if it cools down the neck tension would be more consistent. Does this make any sense
I am not sure how you plan to anneal, but I would not recommend trying the process you outline. Depending on method there will be issues. Keep in mind that the mandrel will cause additional heat load where you are trying to change the temperature the fastest as well as metal expands when heated.
Would it be over kill to use both bushings dies and expanding mandrels
Technically I did that with option7. These are all fun questions. I was really hoping to baseline these processes, then do some more testing when I get the results. More neck tension vs less, how critical is the force when you start seating, all of these things. We only get the new brass data one time in its life so I really wanted to see what the data says and if it matters on target.
BAR
@@BoltActionReloading the other thing i really whated to ask (if you've not already tested it) is how critical variation in case/nexk length is, because in my mind neck tension is also connected not only to the displacement of the material, but also the contacting surface, soo that in my mind also plays a role, might be pointless, i don't know
@@BoltActionReloading the reason i ask about method 7 is because i got the idea the other day that it might work the neck a bit les if i could size it a bit less than my fl sizer already does, but i love my expander mandrels
Yes, I very much agree. This is a recommended practice by some, but I want to bring the data set that shows it. If you look in the charts you can see how the force drops after the busing no longer touched the case. I think its important to see what process has what affect, make that modification to test the affect on the graph, and ultimately see what shows up on paper. I thought this was basic enough to show folks that simply running the brass though your die does a pretty good job of making things consistent. I bet if I ran through the FL die and chased it with a .262 mandrel that initial peak force would come down a little. I want to be careful what I show, and not jump to any conclusions. Often bad data is worse than none. I don't want to lead anyone down the wrong path if I can help it.
How do you think a Lee collet die would have compared?
Hi Jody I would not use the collet die on new brass to straighten out the necks. I would be afraid that the center rod might damage the necks that are a little further out of shape than some of the others. I will be testing this on fired brass hopefully soon.
@@BoltActionReloading uh oh. That's exactly what I just did to 50 rnds of new Lapua 6.5 creedmoor SRP. Out of the 50, only 4-5 had minimal resistance when running the collet die and bullet seating pressure was very consistent. Hopefully I didn't ruin any brass? What should I be looking for exactly?
@@demitrisolvinski not to worry. The Lee collet die does not damage brass. Lol
The real thing I want to see from this test is how they performed. Waiting for that video. Might be like F-class John where the shittier graphs produced the best groups on paper.
There is a lot to learn with this press. It is giving us data points that we have never had before. (I preface this statement that I am not taking away any of Johns work, we are all trying to learn here) Johns "crappy" graphs have data in there that needs to be analyzed a little more I think. For example his best group was new brass no sizing, but it by far had the most neck tension total but *NOT* the most starting pressure. Other interesting points if you look at some of the first groups 2 (assuming he shot them in the order of seating) the fliers in the group were the one that had the graphs most out of family. At this point defining what a "crappy" graph is, is the effort at hand. Is it total seating force, starting pressure? Do we use it to just weed out the fliers? Looking at just the groups allows human error to corrupt the data set as well. I think with some time getting this dialed in will be amazing, but everyone in the community wants the answers yesterday. I hope that the audience will be patient while we work these things out.
@@BoltActionReloading I agree with everything you said. There's so much to learn with this new tool.
I appreciate the effort that you all put into these videos and sharing your results!
Glad you enjoy it and I hope it helps put real data behind some of the things we do (or don't do) as reloaders.
What about a .288" Bushing and .2620"or .2625" expanding mandrel? You really only scratched the surface.
I think when it comes to new brass, fireforming is more important than neck tension.
I was just hoping to see if we can get more usable data during the fireforming. It would be great if there was more to be learned as we are burning through barrel life.
How can I get in touch with you
Hello, I don't really publish my contact details. I have a email in my "about section" but I get a lot if junk and can't answer everything that I would like. If you have a question I do try and respond to the comments when I can.
Nobody is asking what kind of sorcery this man wields that he was able to buy new 6.5 brass in today's market? Really?
Hi Andrew, Yes I have been working on getting ready for this project for the last 6 months at least. I haven't seen the LRP brass from Lapua in since then, but they still have the SRP in stock.
Bushings seems to be not so cool.
So I see that neck bushing is worse than standard die.
Hi Justin, I really think that its a factor of how far it is resized down before it is sized up again. The bushing is only taking it down to .287 and the FL die is going down to .285. The bushing with the Expander still did pretty good.
I have been thinking through this and I think there is a zone of not enough difference between sizing and mandrel diameter. I haven't found a cartridge brass stress strain curve but if you are only straining where it starts to curve and not to a secant modulus region it might give inconsistent springback. Can you report starting, sized, and expanded diameter? probably with micrometer on OD to be precise enough. maybe the deltas will correlate with consistency in seating depth
Nope, I'll not be patronizing your channel, too much content and not enough results!
Luna - the video explained what was going to be tested, how the measurements were going to be obtained & then clearly displayed the results (which were very interesting). What other results did you expect to see?