Not exactly, because of the range restrictions. Also the Bard will be able to use the help action in even more awesome ways! I love this a lot because it means that the Bard will always stay inspiring and not loosing all of his spirits by running out of inspiration 🎲. That part never made sense to me in D&D
I assume your taking about the DnD bard, and yes, maybe don’t use this one n a campaign with one, but that’s just 1 of 13 classes 👌🏼 And in dc20 the bards toes are not stepped on at all 👍🏼
A Bardic Inspiration can be given as a bonus action while help is given as an action. With the idea of a 'help die,' a tier 2 Bard can give allies 2d8 extra to whatever it is they're doing per round so long as they still have those inspirations left. The real problem comes with the bugbear race, or a Mastermind Rogue both getting the ability to give help as a bonus action, and at some range too. Those would be better than Bards because they can do it round over round as opposed to a Bard who can only do it so many times. The Rogue misses out on spellcasting and has to slog through the Mastermind subclass, but there's nothing saying the bugbear can't go full spellcaster and just be a better Bard than the Bard.
I do prefer this and Im even ok with the help action being optimal for some builds or even classes. It gives support classes something to do that doesnt cost resources or allows a non-support focused character to dabble a bit
@@TheDungeonCoach I'm glad he does! I'm not surprised. I've been long wishing someone as masterful as him would get away from such a limited system as 5e. Maybe someday!
I would prefer if you make your criticism about other editions in a more respectful way. I know that is a tall ask, considering you are trying to improve the designs, but it's something that really turns me off.
I like this because Help is always going to at a minimum add something. I actually had a system like this in place for my campaigns lately where it's an added d4 to the roll for every person helping. However, it means say if they are working together to open a door, it means the rest of them forgo their investigation for that time period. I find using the d4 helpful because it allowed me to give Racial Traits such as Human's "Cooperation: When Helping or being Helped, the Helper rolls 1d6." Or "In Sync: Designate a partner which you work best with, when Helping your designated partner, add 1d8."
Like it, but I see it leading to degenerate gameplay where the party tries to create 1HKO situations with every boss where they try to buff up the wrestler so they can shove the BBEG off of the cliff 20 feet away or some dumb crap like that constantly. Restricting the help action so that only one help action can be applied to any check/attack. Also, allowing the new help action outside of combat does not in any way remove the stupidity of help outside of combat in D&D, you just swapped advantage with a 1d8. You can still have every check having 1d8 added to it as long as it is a distinct act.
I don't know about you, but my favorite class of rogue is the Mastermind because of the ranged Help action, and I do often give help actions out of combat. I agree that sometimes the Help roll isn't that helpful, but the gesture is never negative and sometimes your actions aren't as good as that of the helped player. But I'm not going to say better ideas aren't bad, just that I do use Help actions liberally.
The help die is crazy fun. i have had rolls of 30 Plus. Wich was nat 20 and max number on help die and a bless still the fact it happend it was epic. If your ever woried about exploits i was too, but its not as bad its something your not used too. But your not playing d and d your playing DC20 but the action point system makes it soo that tecnacly you sacrefice one of your action points (a potantial Attack) soo in the end it looks broken becouse you just did 1 mega move instead of multipol atacks.
I mean, I took three levels of mastermind rogue, and a level of order cleric, So I could give bonus action help to the rogue and then cast bless to give the rogue an extra sneak attack off of their turn. Outside of that I've never done the help action.
You should check the math on advantage. It's equivalent to +4 or 5. Plus, there's a greater likelihood of a nat 20 (almost double) which matters for attacks.
Yes mathematics are different than feelings at the table. I’m saying if you rolled in the way I said it would feel like it was useless, since rolling the second dice didn’t literally matter (in hindsight) 👍🏼
@@TheDungeonCoach I think a good way to both save time and make it feel better is to roll two d20's at the same time. In our game we discovered that we should also roll damage at the same time as attack. It saves time, and if you miss, you just don't need to count the damage dice.
Definitely sounds like a great way of making it feel more like actually helping. I’m designing my own game and it has an Assistance mechanic similar to this but not exactly. It’s cool to see I was at least in the ballpark of someone of your caliber.
If I help different people in a turn, does the value of the dice still decrease across multiple actions, or does the dice value for a person being helped decreased with multiple levels of help? I can see potential exploits with either, but I'm sure they would have come up in playtesting, so I expect you've already worked out how to keep it from being abused.
Yes, both/either. If you help 3 people in a single turn, the first gets a d8, 2nd gets a d6, and 3rd gets the d4. If Mook1 gets help from Mook2 and Mook3, Mook1 gets a d8 from both Mook2 and Mook3. If Mook2 and/or Mook3 gave a 2nd help die, it would be a d6.
What keeps you from do a healing spell outside of combat with triple advantage spending 4 action points and receiving 3 help actions from each party member resulting in best of 3 d20 + a lot of averages 11 and full heal anyone?
So in DC20 there is a distiction between COMBAT and "not Combat". WHen your back is agaisnt the wall and you have the FIRE under your ass of the threat of death... you can do more (moms lifting cars off of their children type stuff). SO how this works in combat is different than out of combat. Ill have to do a video on that one too :) But Action Points only exist in combat, otside of combat, everything is just 1 "Action" no matter how many action poitns. so you can only help ONCE, and cast 1 spell etc
Coach, not sure if I'm doing it right but I allow any number of "reactions" during other players turn (since the players using reactions are using their action points) but I limit it to one reaction per player turn. This could be used to give the help action, boost a spell, or do something else (like boosting an attack or adding to movement with a "fastball special") Am I using reactions wrong?
There is one reaction per trigger, you can do as many as you want But help action isn’t a reaction You only have a reaction if you have an ability that specifically says you can do so 💜
Hey coach! I want to use this in a system we are creating to play with some friends just for fun, until your Beta release. Question: I think the help action will start to be less impactful at higher levels. I thought of scaling the dice. But it will be difficult for the dice to decrease when repeating the action at low levels. Or maybe adding character proficency bonus? What do you think?
The DC20 system uses a lot of increments of 5 on rolls to determine stuff. Average roll of a d8 is 4.5 (rounds up to 5). Therefore, an added d8 will never be unimpactful because it adds the standard value to make something more potent in DC20.
When you're describing help I just imagine that scene in Infinity Wars where the avengers are just all teaming up on Thanos. So hard to hit that they all have to throw in together and help each other!
Yes. If everyone was in position you could get multiple. In a party of four dumped all AP you can end up with 3D8, 3D6 and 3D4. That said it isn't nearly as efficient because many classes need multiple AP per turn to function. Spell casters can use AP to empower spells and some Techniques require multiple AP. You also get less damage potential than making your own attack after the first help action.
oh yes, really bothered me - In Blades in the dark, you can give yourself a bonus for 2 Stress Points(everyone has 9 for a mission) or your mate can for 1 In Dragonbane I am going to have it be 1 will power point to help which gives a Boon(advantage) Mindless "I help" action are some of the MOST cringe together with "I roll History to figure out what is is - I do to, me to, yes I the barbarian with -1 roll too" and then the barbarian gets the highest.
Hey Coach, what if you reverse the die type as you spend more AP to do the help action? so instead of 1 AP = 1d8, 2 AP = 1d6 and 3AP= 1d4, do the opposite (from 1d4 to 1d8) That way it feels like the more you invest in helping, the more your ally benefits... Also feels more balance (1d8 for 1 AP seems a bit much)
So I like this, it's interesting. But I'm curious, how stacking Help from the same person works out of combat. If I have this right, so long as an ally has a Mastery in a skill and they can think up 3 ways to provide some aid to their ally, then they can essentially give 1d8+1d6+1d4 on any skill check out of combat, as they are not using their actions for anything else anyway. That might be a bit much.
This is timely. The help action was my biggest annoyance with Critical Role. Every check has the help action from another player, so everything they do is with advantage. No rhyme or reason, just help, help, help. The DM in me cringes every time they do that. Deborah Ann Woll in, Children of Earte ,at least required the players to explain what they were actually doing based on their proficiencies to off the help action. That felt a lot more reasonable, and less subject to abuse.
I like this idea, but I'd want to tie the size of the die to the helper's proficiency bonus - d4 for +2, d6 for +3, d8 for +4 and so on. For expertise roll two dice and take the better. For raw ability checks, like moving the boulder, have the helper roll d4 and add the appropriate ability modifier.
I home-brewed this in my game and it started an argument. I used to give each PC a Hero Coin at each session that could be used to re-roll any die roll that session. One night, instead of the usual, I gave each player a special d6 that they could add to a die roll sometime during the session. I also added that they could donate these dice to other players, so a player could potentially make a d20 roll and use 4d6 to add to that number. We used it that session then I let them vote on which system they liked better. One player adamantly argued for the Hero Coins. He was out-voted and sulked, and every time a player made a really low d20 roll, thus making the added d6 useless, he was there to browbeat everyone with, "If you just took a re-roll from a Hero Coin, you might have succeeded." I might try your suggestion: Hero Coins for the session and d8s for the help action.
I 'think' im on board, but i would like to see something more codified as to when and what situations Help can occur. I dont like the wishy-washy and DM-may-I situations
It's a minor thing, but on the Help Action I make the helper roll the D20. Not much, but it does give them something to do. I also allow assisting actions to be complimentary skills checks for more narrative impact.
Hey Coach, I wanted to ask in the livestream but I haven’t gotten a chance. Would you consider making a video about how you set up your Notion for designing the game? I am trying to use notion to design my own system but am kind of struggling with organizing it
Oh better yet, rule that the helping die can cause a critical success if its result plus the d20 result equals 20 or higher! I might do that instead of it adding to damage. A helper could even roll the helping die and subtract it from an opponents saving throw if they could reasonably help in that way.
For every extra d20 rolled after the initial d20, for every result of 5+ in intervals of 5 can add a +1 to the roll, the user still takes the highest dice result! 4d20, results, 15, 11, 10, 3, take the 15, add 11+10+3 for 24, add a +4 to their roll for a total of +19 to the roll. Super complicated for no reason, but keeps your game from requiring any other dice than a d20.
Helping should just be written as a cantrip anyone can “cast” therefor its potency increases with tier, or just make it increase with tier… you could also tie it to the proficiency bonus (use the variant proficiency die for this) then it would scale some…
Is the rule of 4 actions only for combat? If im doing a non-combat action( lockpicking a door for example or pickpocket) in and out of combat, can i use actions for advantage in rolls?
Tell me the action points mechanics allow you to upcast spells based on the number of action points sunk into it. Like a one-action magic missile is just one missile, but a four-action magic missile is four missiles! Or using all four actions on the cast so you don't use up a spell slot, like a ritual cast.
I would add that the Rogue gets Sneak Attack if they have been helped, since sometimes its beneficial to help a rogue to give them advantage or remove disadvantage. So letting help count as a qualification for Sneak Attack
Except in 5e the requirements for taking the help action are also the requirements for sneak attack. If you are within 5ft of an enemy you automatically give the rogue sneak attack unless there is a source of disadvantage. Even if you take the help action and turn disadvantage to a straight roll you still do not get sneak attack because there is a source of disadvantage.
@@hopefulmayhem5744 I thought you could get sneak attack as long as you did not HAVE disadvantage, So if you overcame the disadvantage, you don't have advantage, but can sneak attack if applicable
It might also be worthwhile to give the attack roll advantage to the rogue who might be doing twice as much damage as you with their sneak attack, even if your presence there already gives the ability to sneak attack, the bonus to attack rolls is nothing to scoff at. It's still kinda boring to use, giving up your heroic spotlight for someone else.
Can multiple characters help with a single attack or action? For example: I'm swinging my sword at an orc and each of my three companions help with one action point each. Do I get a d8 a d6 and a D4 or do I get 3D8? If all three of them use three action points each do I get 3D8, 3D6, and 3D4?
You get a D8 from each character. And yes you can get a full roll of 3D8, 3D6, and 3D4 but it isn't that easy to do because of positioning and you often need multiple AP to function as a character. Just remember the penalties are for a character taking the same action multiple times but not for being targeted multiple times.
Call me basic, but I think Help ought to involve both players rolling and adding their results. That's how it works in real life: two people lifting a thing exert roughly twice the force on it. That way DMs can also balance things as being impossible for a single player to do: if prying open a door is a DC 35 Strength check, one person couldn't possibly do it, but 3-4 people working together can do it just fine. That simulates real life better, AND makes everyone's contributions feel satisfying. "Without MY SPECIFIC CONTRIBUTION, we wouldn't have done it."
I agree, though I'm also working on a system that breaks help down into group actions and assist actions because helping someone search a room and helping someone pick a lock are very different interactions.
I like it a lot. It creates options and synergizes with weapon properties. If someone's weapon has that powerful property that you really need activated, or a damage type that the enemy is vulnerable to, you can focus on helping the wielder of that weapon to get the most from their hit. Great mechanic.
To port it over to D&D, what do you tweak so you're not replacing Bardic Inspiration? Then again, having that a limited number of times has always felt weird to me so maybe make it unlimited uses? Then, if you're a bard, you COULD Help AND Inspire someone (or one of each to two different allies)?
I’ve ran it this way, and since they would stack anyway I’ve never seen a problem with it. I’ve asked bards who have played alongside this role and they’ve had no problem either. 👌🏼
As a DM, the ONLY time I've seen the help action used in combat is with the sidekick who buffs their help action (I think it's a bonus action AND adds 1d6 damage to a hit?). As a player, I think I used it once a long time ago to help a wizard to hit with a potent spell (it wasn't Disintegrate but along that idea). I don't remember using it ever again . . .
How has the help acton worked when situations like this come up… my friend helps and I make an attack. Then he attacks and I give him help. Do you only help with a single roll? As I understand it you spend acton points during their turn so best economy maybe I attack the. I attack again with my friend helping 2x Then on my friends turn he attacks and then attacks again and I give him 2x help. How does flanking work? This seems like it could give you some kind of advantage being near your buddy. could lead to some very three musketeers style combats where everyone is fighting you back to back with your friend! Epic
To clarify, if the help acton is used in this way it might be the ‘flanking advantage’ and you may not need to add in flanking. Was wondering how the math worked out for the above situation. This seems to me to be the best but i am a philosophy guy not strong in math 😆
I'm glad DC20 is still progressing well through it's development. When the OGL situation happened and loads of people were talking about jumping ship and making their own system, that sounded really promising, but I haven't heard a lot about any of them since. Do you know if Paizo or any of the others are still working on theirs or did everyone just go back to D&D once things calmed down and you're the only one left working on a new system?
Paizo did rework some of their classes and clarified some rules and changed names of some dnd related stuff. I believe the update is coming soon (many things are already out or revealed). THat is only what I heard though as currently I am trying out other systems
Yeah, Paizo has a remaster that removes all the OGL content, MCDM just made 4 million on their backerkit, KP is doing Tales of the Valiant (project black flag), Indestructiboy has Vagabond (which I don't actually know much about) and Bob [the] Worldbuilder announced something too
HUGE fan of DC20 and an Alpha tester! I love your 4 action economy, but the campaign I'm currently DMing is in 5e. I'm using mostly your rules for homebrewing this method of helping with a minor tweak: Rather than limit HELP to an Action for a D8, I am allowing players to use a Bonus Action or Reaction to help with a D4, still within the limits of range to a friend or foe and being rolled by the helper. Also, if the HELPER is using a bonus or reaction, they do NOT add the damage, just on the to-hit roll. Just thought I'd share! Thanks for making such a great system! planning to do a DC20 adventure soon!
There’s a lot of cool design space here, but I think my only gripe is that since you’re removing the damage roll, maybe remove the bonus dice to keep things with just a d20? I think some other ways to play with it could be: • Have a Help Roll (so each Help level can increase the DC by 5 or have disadvantage or something), but if that character succeeds, they get another degree of success or the DC is dropped by a degree. • In a D&D sense, maybe increasing the *Ability* involved by proficiency bonus on top of one advantage. So that way this scales, and increases accuracy, damage, and triggered DC. Or if you like rolling more dice use a proficiency die (2 -> d4, 3 -> d6, 4 -> d8, 5 -> d10, 6 -> d12). So, if I’m spending an Action to Help my battle master friend and I’m level 6, I can give them advantage and +d6 to accuracy, damage, and trip DC or something. A beefy unite maneuver. If that’s too much, then choose just one on top of advantage (Accuracy, Damage, or DC). But hell yeah love hearing these ideas!
so essentialy you made the help action into a bardic inspiration action. so i guess since in your game there is no bonus action a bard could use one action for the help action and one for the bardic inspiration giving a total of 2d8 help? or did you also change classes? I think that implementing this in current dnd action economy would just devalue any bard build but sure if you dont have a bard in the party help away with a d8. problem stays that you cant attack with your action if you use the help action anyway so it kind of does not really translate easely to solving the current dnd 5e help action problems unless you change the whole system but then... it is not dnd 5e anymore its just another game similar to dnd... like maybe DC20 aahah
True Strike is useful for when you are setting up a big attack roll spell that you really don't want to miss. Waisting 1 turn of cantrip to gain an increase on a big effect can be useful. Granted, there's few attack roll spells anymore.
Do make a video about help outside of combat! It's a weird, "I guess everyone always has advantage" situation.
Isn't it clashing with the bardic inspiration? It's like giving every character in the game the core bard mechanic.
Not exactly, because of the range restrictions. Also the Bard will be able to use the help action in even more awesome ways!
I love this a lot because it means that the Bard will always stay inspiring and not loosing all of his spirits by running out of inspiration 🎲. That part never made sense to me in D&D
As stated already, no, because that's gone, and Bards get THIS but cracked the F out 😅
I assume your taking about the DnD bard, and yes, maybe don’t use this one n a campaign with one, but that’s just 1 of 13 classes 👌🏼
And in dc20 the bards toes are not stepped on at all 👍🏼
I'm excited to see what Bard does in DC20.@@TheDungeonCoach
A Bardic Inspiration can be given as a bonus action while help is given as an action. With the idea of a 'help die,' a tier 2 Bard can give allies 2d8 extra to whatever it is they're doing per round so long as they still have those inspirations left.
The real problem comes with the bugbear race, or a Mastermind Rogue both getting the ability to give help as a bonus action, and at some range too. Those would be better than Bards because they can do it round over round as opposed to a Bard who can only do it so many times. The Rogue misses out on spellcasting and has to slog through the Mastermind subclass, but there's nothing saying the bugbear can't go full spellcaster and just be a better Bard than the Bard.
Love that! I'm curious about how you handle it out of combat so it doesn't get out of hand when there is no time constraint
Thanks!
I love the help action in DC20! I would also like to see your help outside of combat video. I think that would be informative.💜
I do prefer this and
Im even ok with the help action being optimal for some builds or even classes. It gives support classes something to do that doesnt cost resources or allows a non-support focused character to dabble a bit
WHY are you talking to brennan about dc20? 🧐 What's in the pipeline?
Imagene Dimention playing DC20
@@galaxyfoxnightsky2042imagine crown of candy dc20 book
Dimension-C-20!?!?
Hahaha no no, nothing official has been discussed, just shared the system with him and he loved it
@@TheDungeonCoach I'm glad he does! I'm not surprised. I've been long wishing someone as masterful as him would get away from such a limited system as 5e. Maybe someday!
I would prefer if you make your criticism about other editions in a more respectful way. I know that is a tall ask, considering you are trying to improve the designs, but it's something that really turns me off.
What a kind way to give feedback, thank you for that, and I’ll keep this in mind! Thank you
I like this because Help is always going to at a minimum add something.
I actually had a system like this in place for my campaigns lately where it's an added d4 to the roll for every person helping. However, it means say if they are working together to open a door, it means the rest of them forgo their investigation for that time period.
I find using the d4 helpful because it allowed me to give Racial Traits such as Human's "Cooperation: When Helping or being Helped, the Helper rolls 1d6." Or "In Sync: Designate a partner which you work best with, when Helping your designated partner, add 1d8."
Like it, but I see it leading to degenerate gameplay where the party tries to create 1HKO situations with every boss where they try to buff up the wrestler so they can shove the BBEG off of the cliff 20 feet away or some dumb crap like that constantly. Restricting the help action so that only one help action can be applied to any check/attack. Also, allowing the new help action outside of combat does not in any way remove the stupidity of help outside of combat in D&D, you just swapped advantage with a 1d8. You can still have every check having 1d8 added to it as long as it is a distinct act.
I don't know about you, but my favorite class of rogue is the Mastermind because of the ranged Help action, and I do often give help actions out of combat. I agree that sometimes the Help roll isn't that helpful, but the gesture is never negative and sometimes your actions aren't as good as that of the helped player. But I'm not going to say better ideas aren't bad, just that I do use Help actions liberally.
The help die is crazy fun. i have had rolls of 30 Plus.
Wich was nat 20 and max number on help die and a bless still the fact it happend it was epic.
If your ever woried about exploits i was too, but its not as bad its something your not used too.
But your not playing d and d your playing DC20
but the action point system makes it soo that tecnacly you sacrefice one of your action points (a potantial Attack) soo in the end it looks broken becouse you just did 1 mega move instead of multipol atacks.
I mean, I took three levels of mastermind rogue, and a level of order cleric, So I could give bonus action help to the rogue and then cast bless to give the rogue an extra sneak attack off of their turn.
Outside of that I've never done the help action.
My familiar uses the help action all the time, it's the best use of help except the mastermind rogue.
You should check the math on advantage. It's equivalent to +4 or 5. Plus, there's a greater likelihood of a nat 20 (almost double) which matters for attacks.
Nobody helps? My familiar uses the help action all the time! 😅
You can't say giving advantage 'didn't help'. It did help. It made it more likely you will succeed. Don't teach bad habits.
Yes mathematics are different than feelings at the table. I’m saying if you rolled in the way I said it would feel like it was useless, since rolling the second dice didn’t literally matter (in hindsight) 👍🏼
@@TheDungeonCoach I think a good way to both save time and make it feel better is to roll two d20's at the same time. In our game we discovered that we should also roll damage at the same time as attack. It saves time, and if you miss, you just don't need to count the damage dice.
There is a help action in combat. It's called flanking.
I want the video to do well to unlock another Coach rant.
So cool that you got to talk to Brennan! What an opportunity!
He was just as awesome of a person as you’d imagine too!!
They thinking of using DC20? 🙏🏻
Definitely sounds like a great way of making it feel more like actually helping. I’m designing my own game and it has an Assistance mechanic similar to this but not exactly. It’s cool to see I was at least in the ballpark of someone of your caliber.
If I help different people in a turn, does the value of the dice still decrease across multiple actions, or does the dice value for a person being helped decreased with multiple levels of help? I can see potential exploits with either, but I'm sure they would have come up in playtesting, so I expect you've already worked out how to keep it from being abused.
Yes, both/either.
If you help 3 people in a single turn, the first gets a d8, 2nd gets a d6, and 3rd gets the d4.
If Mook1 gets help from Mook2 and Mook3, Mook1 gets a d8 from both Mook2 and Mook3.
If Mook2 and/or Mook3 gave a 2nd help die, it would be a d6.
What keeps you from do a healing spell outside of combat with triple advantage spending 4 action points and receiving 3 help actions from each party member resulting in best of 3 d20 + a lot of averages 11 and full heal anyone?
So in DC20 there is a distiction between COMBAT and "not Combat". WHen your back is agaisnt the wall and you have the FIRE under your ass of the threat of death... you can do more (moms lifting cars off of their children type stuff). SO how this works in combat is different than out of combat. Ill have to do a video on that one too :)
But Action Points only exist in combat, otside of combat, everything is just 1 "Action" no matter how many action poitns. so you can only help ONCE, and cast 1 spell etc
Coach, not sure if I'm doing it right but I allow any number of "reactions" during other players turn (since the players using reactions are using their action points) but I limit it to one reaction per player turn.
This could be used to give the help action, boost a spell, or do something else (like boosting an attack or adding to movement with a "fastball special")
Am I using reactions wrong?
IIRC there's not a limit last I saw.
There is one reaction per trigger, you can do as many as you want
But help action isn’t a reaction
You only have a reaction if you have an ability that specifically says you can do so 💜
Hey coach! I want to use this in a system we are creating to play with some friends just for fun, until your Beta release.
Question: I think the help action will start to be less impactful at higher levels. I thought of scaling the dice. But it will be difficult for the dice to decrease when repeating the action at low levels. Or maybe adding character proficency bonus?
What do you think?
The DC20 system uses a lot of increments of 5 on rolls to determine stuff. Average roll of a d8 is 4.5 (rounds up to 5). Therefore, an added d8 will never be unimpactful because it adds the standard value to make something more potent in DC20.
When you're describing help I just imagine that scene in Infinity Wars where the avengers are just all teaming up on Thanos.
So hard to hit that they all have to throw in together and help each other!
I love your help action method! d8, d6, d4 is very balanced.
can multiple people take the help action for the same thing???
Yes. If everyone was in position you could get multiple. In a party of four dumped all AP you can end up with 3D8, 3D6 and 3D4. That said it isn't nearly as efficient because many classes need multiple AP per turn to function. Spell casters can use AP to empower spells and some Techniques require multiple AP. You also get less damage potential than making your own attack after the first help action.
oh yes, really bothered me - In Blades in the dark, you can give yourself a bonus for 2 Stress Points(everyone has 9 for a mission) or your mate can for 1
In Dragonbane I am going to have it be 1 will power point to help which gives a Boon(advantage)
Mindless "I help" action are some of the MOST cringe together with "I roll History to figure out what is is - I do to, me to, yes I the barbarian with -1 roll too" and then the barbarian gets the highest.
Hey Coach, what if you reverse the die type as you spend more AP to do the help action? so instead of 1 AP = 1d8, 2 AP = 1d6 and 3AP= 1d4, do the opposite (from 1d4 to 1d8) That way it feels like the more you invest in helping, the more your ally benefits... Also feels more balance (1d8 for 1 AP seems a bit much)
So I like this, it's interesting. But I'm curious, how stacking Help from the same person works out of combat. If I have this right, so long as an ally has a Mastery in a skill and they can think up 3 ways to provide some aid to their ally, then they can essentially give 1d8+1d6+1d4 on any skill check out of combat, as they are not using their actions for anything else anyway. That might be a bit much.
This is timely. The help action was my biggest annoyance with Critical Role. Every check has the help action from another player, so everything they do is with advantage. No rhyme or reason, just help, help, help. The DM in me cringes every time they do that.
Deborah Ann Woll in, Children of Earte ,at least required the players to explain what they were actually doing based on their proficiencies to off the help action. That felt a lot more reasonable, and less subject to abuse.
I like this idea, but I'd want to tie the size of the die to the helper's proficiency bonus - d4 for +2, d6 for +3, d8 for +4 and so on. For expertise roll two dice and take the better. For raw ability checks, like moving the boulder, have the helper roll d4 and add the appropriate ability modifier.
I home-brewed this in my game and it started an argument.
I used to give each PC a Hero Coin at each session that could be used to re-roll any die roll that session.
One night, instead of the usual, I gave each player a special d6 that they could add to a die roll sometime during the session. I also added that they could donate these dice to other players, so a player could potentially make a d20 roll and use 4d6 to add to that number.
We used it that session then I let them vote on which system they liked better. One player adamantly argued for the Hero Coins.
He was out-voted and sulked, and every time a player made a really low d20 roll, thus making the added d6 useless, he was there to browbeat everyone with, "If you just took a re-roll from a Hero Coin, you might have succeeded."
I might try your suggestion: Hero Coins for the session and d8s for the help action.
Hmm, its kind of wierd that your system basically only uses d20s, but suddenly uses d8~d4 for ONE specific mechanic. Not bad mind you, just wierd.
I 'think' im on board, but i would like to see something more codified as to when and what situations Help can occur. I dont like the wishy-washy and DM-may-I situations
It's a minor thing, but on the Help Action I make the helper roll the D20. Not much, but it does give them something to do.
I also allow assisting actions to be complimentary skills checks for more narrative impact.
One die. Five dice.
You should give 4E a try.
Teamwork was awesome in that. Other editions are kinda single player.
Hey Coach, I wanted to ask in the livestream but I haven’t gotten a chance. Would you consider making a video about how you set up your Notion for designing the game? I am trying to use notion to design my own system but am kind of struggling with organizing it
Oh better yet, rule that the helping die can cause a critical success if its result plus the d20 result equals 20 or higher! I might do that instead of it adding to damage. A helper could even roll the helping die and subtract it from an opponents saving throw if they could reasonably help in that way.
For every extra d20 rolled after the initial d20, for every result of 5+ in intervals of 5 can add a +1 to the roll, the user still takes the highest dice result!
4d20, results, 15, 11, 10, 3, take the 15, add 11+10+3 for 24, add a +4 to their roll for a total of +19 to the roll.
Super complicated for no reason, but keeps your game from requiring any other dice than a d20.
Helping should just be written as a cantrip anyone can “cast” therefor its potency increases with tier, or just make it increase with tier… you could also tie it to the proficiency bonus (use the variant proficiency die for this) then it would scale some…
Is the rule of 4 actions only for combat? If im doing a non-combat action( lockpicking a door for example or pickpocket) in and out of combat, can i use actions for advantage in rolls?
Tell me the action points mechanics allow you to upcast spells based on the number of action points sunk into it. Like a one-action magic missile is just one missile, but a four-action magic missile is four missiles! Or using all four actions on the cast so you don't use up a spell slot, like a ritual cast.
I would add that the Rogue gets Sneak Attack if they have been helped, since sometimes its beneficial to help a rogue to give them advantage or remove disadvantage.
So letting help count as a qualification for Sneak Attack
Except in 5e the requirements for taking the help action are also the requirements for sneak attack. If you are within 5ft of an enemy you automatically give the rogue sneak attack unless there is a source of disadvantage. Even if you take the help action and turn disadvantage to a straight roll you still do not get sneak attack because there is a source of disadvantage.
@@hopefulmayhem5744 I thought you could get sneak attack as long as you did not HAVE disadvantage, So if you overcame the disadvantage, you don't have advantage, but can sneak attack if applicable
It might also be worthwhile to give the attack roll advantage to the rogue who might be doing twice as much damage as you with their sneak attack, even if your presence there already gives the ability to sneak attack, the bonus to attack rolls is nothing to scoff at.
It's still kinda boring to use, giving up your heroic spotlight for someone else.
@@w4iph you are correct, the rule has errata, however you will still be better off taking another action.
Can multiple characters help with a single attack or action? For example: I'm swinging my sword at an orc and each of my three companions help with one action point each. Do I get a d8 a d6 and a D4 or do I get 3D8? If all three of them use three action points each do I get 3D8, 3D6, and 3D4?
8,6,4.
so if more people use their help you don't get anything more, so it is capped at 3 helps per character?@@samuelbroad11
You get a D8 from each character. And yes you can get a full roll of 3D8, 3D6, and 3D4 but it isn't that easy to do because of positioning and you often need multiple AP to function as a character. Just remember the penalties are for a character taking the same action multiple times but not for being targeted multiple times.
Call me basic, but I think Help ought to involve both players rolling and adding their results. That's how it works in real life: two people lifting a thing exert roughly twice the force on it. That way DMs can also balance things as being impossible for a single player to do: if prying open a door is a DC 35 Strength check, one person couldn't possibly do it, but 3-4 people working together can do it just fine. That simulates real life better, AND makes everyone's contributions feel satisfying. "Without MY SPECIFIC CONTRIBUTION, we wouldn't have done it."
I agree, though I'm also working on a system that breaks help down into group actions and assist actions because helping someone search a room and helping someone pick a lock are very different interactions.
I like it a lot. It creates options and synergizes with weapon properties. If someone's weapon has that powerful property that you really need activated, or a damage type that the enemy is vulnerable to, you can focus on helping the wielder of that weapon to get the most from their hit. Great mechanic.
Can the Help Action be used as a Reaction or only as an Action on your turn?
To port it over to D&D, what do you tweak so you're not replacing Bardic Inspiration? Then again, having that a limited number of times has always felt weird to me so maybe make it unlimited uses? Then, if you're a bard, you COULD Help AND Inspire someone (or one of each to two different allies)?
I’ve ran it this way, and since they would stack anyway I’ve never seen a problem with it. I’ve asked bards who have played alongside this role and they’ve had no problem either. 👌🏼
As a DM, the ONLY time I've seen the help action used in combat is with the sidekick who buffs their help action (I think it's a bonus action AND adds 1d6 damage to a hit?).
As a player, I think I used it once a long time ago to help a wizard to hit with a potent spell (it wasn't Disintegrate but along that idea). I don't remember using it ever again . . .
It's definitely for niche uses, like enabling rogues to sneak attack, or if you for some reason lost your weapon or something.
I’m super excited for DC20!
🎉
The casual Brennan name drop is interesting
I am borrowing This mechanic 83
How has the help acton worked when situations like this come up… my friend helps and I make an attack. Then he attacks and I give him help.
Do you only help with a single roll? As I understand it you spend acton points during their turn so best economy maybe I attack the. I attack again with my friend helping 2x
Then on my friends turn he attacks and then attacks again and I give him 2x help.
How does flanking work? This seems like it could give you some kind of advantage being near your buddy. could lead to some very three musketeers style combats where everyone is fighting you back to back with your friend! Epic
To clarify, if the help acton is used in this way it might be the ‘flanking advantage’ and you may not need to add in flanking. Was wondering how the math worked out for the above situation. This seems to me to be the best but i am a philosophy guy not strong in math 😆
you had me at brennan lee mulligan
Most Homebrew sucks.
I'm glad DC20 is still progressing well through it's development. When the OGL situation happened and loads of people were talking about jumping ship and making their own system, that sounded really promising, but I haven't heard a lot about any of them since. Do you know if Paizo or any of the others are still working on theirs or did everyone just go back to D&D once things calmed down and you're the only one left working on a new system?
Paizo did rework some of their classes and clarified some rules and changed names of some dnd related stuff. I believe the update is coming soon (many things are already out or revealed). THat is only what I heard though as currently I am trying out other systems
Yeah, Paizo has a remaster that removes all the OGL content, MCDM just made 4 million on their backerkit, KP is doing Tales of the Valiant (project black flag), Indestructiboy has Vagabond (which I don't actually know much about) and Bob [the] Worldbuilder announced something too
Oh man DC20 sounds awesome
HUGE fan of DC20 and an Alpha tester! I love your 4 action economy, but the campaign I'm currently DMing is in 5e. I'm using mostly your rules for homebrewing this method of helping with a minor tweak: Rather than limit HELP to an Action for a D8, I am allowing players to use a Bonus Action or Reaction to help with a D4, still within the limits of range to a friend or foe and being rolled by the helper. Also, if the HELPER is using a bonus or reaction, they do NOT add the damage, just on the to-hit roll. Just thought I'd share! Thanks for making such a great system! planning to do a DC20 adventure soon!
There’s a lot of cool design space here, but I think my only gripe is that since you’re removing the damage roll, maybe remove the bonus dice to keep things with just a d20?
I think some other ways to play with it could be:
• Have a Help Roll (so each Help level can increase the DC by 5 or have disadvantage or something), but if that character succeeds, they get another degree of success or the DC is dropped by a degree.
• In a D&D sense, maybe increasing the *Ability* involved by proficiency bonus on top of one advantage. So that way this scales, and increases accuracy, damage, and triggered DC. Or if you like rolling more dice use a proficiency die (2 -> d4, 3 -> d6, 4 -> d8, 5 -> d10, 6 -> d12).
So, if I’m spending an Action to Help my battle master friend and I’m level 6, I can give them advantage and +d6 to accuracy, damage, and trip DC or something. A beefy unite maneuver.
If that’s too much, then choose just one on top of advantage (Accuracy, Damage, or DC).
But hell yeah love hearing these ideas!
Keeping multiple dice in the system is fine. Good even. Players love their dice lol.
Neato!
so essentialy you made the help action into a bardic inspiration action. so i guess since in your game there is no bonus action a bard could use one action for the help action and one for the bardic inspiration giving a total of 2d8 help? or did you also change classes?
I think that implementing this in current dnd action economy would just devalue any bard build but sure if you dont have a bard in the party help away with a d8.
problem stays that you cant attack with your action if you use the help action anyway so it kind of does not really translate easely to solving the current dnd 5e help action problems unless you change the whole system but then... it is not dnd 5e anymore its just another game similar to dnd... like maybe DC20 aahah
True Strike is useful for when you are setting up a big attack roll spell that you really don't want to miss. Waisting 1 turn of cantrip to gain an increase on a big effect can be useful.
Granted, there's few attack roll spells anymore.