Does Tales of the Valiant Still Matter? (And Dungeons & Dragons Layoffs)

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0:00 Intro
1:22 Hasbro/Wizards of the Coast Layoffs
25:06 Another AI Art Kerfuffle
34:51 Does Project Black Flag Have a Purpose Anymore?
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Despite being the Atlas supporting the world that is Hasbro, layoffs also came to Wizards of the Coast this month, affecting well-known names such as Dan Dillon and Mike Mearls. Was this an instance of sharing the pain in a demonstration of "fairness" by the parent corporation? Also, is that new free-ad-supported Dungeons & Dragons channel part of Hasbro's Entertainment division? If so, then maybe don't get too attached to it. Somewhat related to the layoffs, there's also some new kerfuffle over the use of AI art, but it seems like it could just be a misunderstanding from some folks on the Internet.
Finally, we chat about "Tales of the Valiant," nee "Project Black Flag." When Kobold Press announced this new roleplaying system, it was before Wizards of the Coast juked everyone and irrevocably placed the Fifth Edition System Reference Document into Creative Commons. Now that the core of 5E is protected like that, is there really a need for what Kobold Press' own people have called 5E with "a fresh coat of paint." Ultimately, what's their differentiator? What's their argument for us to purchase a new set of books with largely the same rules we already have?
We dig into detail on all these during this episode of “The Goblins and Growlers Podcast.”
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The Goblins and Growlers Podcast is produced by Goblins and Growlers, a Richmond, Virginia-based tabletop-roleplaying game content and events company dedicated to inclusivity through TTRPGs.

[@KadarianLord]

um Paizo was making the dungeon and the dragon magazine well before 4e, them creating pathfinder was a response to 4th edition and having the license cut off, not the other way around.
They got sucker punched, and they came in with a hard counter that got them a space in the gaming community.
Pathfinder was similar enough to feel comfortable, fixed many pain points the community felt, and rebalanced the classes bringing things up in power.
While not truly compatible it was close enough that converting things over was not a nightmare.
With such a huge shift to 4e it was a great opportunity.
With ToV they are still competing with D&D with D&D being even bigger and stronger than it was back in 3.5 combined with a marginal shift to newer 5.5, this would have been like trying to make pathfinder during the shift from 3rd to 3.5.
They heavily banked on the outrage from the OGL fiasco, but unlike when Paizo made their move there really are a lot more known alternatives now, which makes it a harder market for them to bust into.
I wish them well but honestly I would probably just keep playing 5E and do my own homebrewing over picking up tales of the valiant.

[@truix5386]

I've been ragging on KP for a while now.
Of course people are swearing up and down TotV is different, but it's not. I REALLY wish they had made something brand new, but alas. I just feel like they're onetrick ponies at this point.

[@goblinsandgrowlers]

We don't complain about them regularly, but PBF/TotV has felt like a big misstep. I'm sure there are people excited about it because it's not owned by WotC, but I don't understand what their differentiator is besides "it's not WotC." It feels like they had a big plan for a new system before WotC put the 5E SRD in Creative Commons because they were making a TON of noise about it, but then once that happened they had to do something to justify all the announcements. I don't think TotV is *bad* or anything. I just don't understand why we should buy it.

[@angelocano6041]

also, a huge difference is when pathfinder came out, it was because 4e was a major departure from 3.5. So Pathfinder was basically allowing people to continue playing 3.5 with future support (because pathfinder 1 was basically just 3.5 with some updates).
now 5.5e (or what ever is being called) is just 5e with some updates. and TofV is ... 5e with some updates. and form what i have seen... mechanically speaking... a lot of the same updates. literally the only reason to go with TotV is wanting to not buy from WOTC. its nothing to to with the game. this is all about which company you want to support. or, i guess, whose proprietary monsters and lore you prefer i guess.... i actually had TofV on preorder, then i ready the alpha and black flag srd, and promptly cancelled my preorder. i have 5e. i had no real intention of buying the 5.5 since I'm fine with what i have. i see no reason to give $130 bucks to get the same thing with some home brew built in. i have my won home brew (ie - i basically converted all the neat changes to 5e that were in BG3 and ran with that. which seems to also be what WOTC and KP are doing too. lol).

[@collinthebenevolentbandit]

"You know what nowadays would be a very appropriate name for Dungeons & Dragons 5e? The Generic Universal Role-Playing System." LMFAO 😂🤣😂OMG So on point!!! This is without a doubt the world we live in. Anyone believing otherwise is in denial.There are a bunch of people that wanna play games other than D&D, and those people felt that way before and after the OGL debacle. Then there were people who play mostly or only D&D. Those folks were understandably pissed about the threat of 3rd party material being deleted forever by the way the OGL mess started out. But then WotC made the 5e SRD Creative Commons, and since then, there's no reason for the folks loyal to D&D to try another system. I deleted my D&D Beyond account and then renewed it, I started reading the Pathfinder 2e rules and then stopped. Kobold Press and MCDM have no target audience for their games, and I agree 100% that they backed themselves into a corner. They started making a game when it looked like everyone might abandon D&D, but then very few did, so now they think they CAN'T make a game TOO different from D&D or, they're afraid, their games will be left out in the cold. But, of course, that's where they are both ending up anyway. I think Kobold Press and MCDM misjudged TTRPGers' financial and moral support as people wanting to play D&D under a different banner. But really, TTRPGers have always been a rebellious bunch in a good way. I think a lot of the money for their Kickstarter/Backerkit was not "we wanna play D&D under a different name," but actually, "Hey, we appreciate that you said F-you to WotC and supported the community of GMs and players during the OGL mess." KP and MCDM have no path for success with their games. Pathfinder is already the clear D&D alternative if you like D&D but have some major issues with it. If you want a completely different system of mechanics, you're not playing D&D or Pathfinder at all. You're playing an OSR game, or Dragonbane, or Dungeon World, or Blades in the Dark, or 13th Age, or Shadow of the Demon Lord, or Iron Kingdoms, or Warhammer Fantasy RP. You love how the one you play is really different from D&D and you love the indie nature of it. There is literally no viable lane for Tales of the Valiant or the MCDM RPG to step into. People keep saying that the MCDM RPG will be a lot like 4th Edition D&D. If you really love D&D 4th Edition, guess what? You're probably still playing it and have no desire to switch! If you've watched the video updates of the MCDM RPG, it's laughable. They had no vision for their game beyond the incredibly vague 3-word description of "Cinematic, Heroic, Tactical." They're just throwing mechanics against the wall and seeing what sticks. And guess what? The stuff closest to D&D seems to stick the best. Go figure! But of course now that they raised $4.5 million on BackerKit, what are they gonna do? The most honest thing would be to return all the money and say: "You know what? We messed up. Once WotC made the 5e SRD Creative Commons, we should have stopped. Here's your money back. Please consider supporting the Backerkit for our next D&D 5e sourcebook or adventure module." But of course now they can't do that. They have to go ahead and make the thing, which no one needs.

[@jleonas]

KP may be trying to emulate what Paizo did, but there are a couple of big differences:
1. WotC at the time drastically changed DnD from 3.5 to 4E, to the chagrin of customers. The change from 5E to One DnD looks likes it will be minimal in comparison.
2. PF1 is much more of an iteration of 3.5 than ToV is from 5E. PF1 was similar and recognizable, but not compatible with 3.5 and was real move to revise and improve the rules. ToV so far strikes me as 5E with generic subclasses that add little to the game.

[@goblinsandgrowlers]

And even KP's own employees have called it 5E with a coat of paint. It feels like that might have been saying the quiet part out loud.

[@jleonas]

@@goblinsandgrowlers they have a ToV Gamemaster’s Guide Kickstarter launching soon, I think it will be telling in whether they have gained or lost momentum since the original KS.

[@grimmdm1]

@@jleonasand the book was funded under 30 minutes sooo i think will be fine…

[@leannageorge1122]

I'll be honest, I backed it because it's NOT WOTC. Yeah, the OGL fiasco left a dirty taste in my mouth and Hasbro hasn't been very reassuring that they are getting any smarter or truly connected with the D&D consumer base. I don't want to give them any more of my money at this point. Though i do admit I did go and see the D&D movie (It was fun) and I still have my DNDBeyond subscription cause I'm finishing campaigns in the system. Whether I keep it once my campaigns wrap up, depends on if my players are okay with striking out and trying TOV or another system at that point. I am confident that 2024 D&D is not going to be backwards compatible without a LOT of work from the DM. I imagine 2024 D&D will be a walled garden of negotiated contracts for any 3rd party that wants to pay for the 2024 D&D name/content on their book. Remember they kept complaining that D&D was under-monetized and the whole scheme is to get 3rd party money in their pockets. All WotC promised as far as I can tell, is current stuff is going to be Creative Commons, but they made no promises about 2024 and I imagine moving forward if you want to be compatible with 2024 D&D, it's going to cost. This iteration of TOV may not have a lot of new bells and whistles, the SRD to creative commons probably through their plans for a loop . I think a lot of people already turned away from TOV during the kickstarter for the very reasons you mentioned. I will say though, PF1 was mostly a clone as well from my understanding and it has really done well. It is my hope is that TOV supplements will be amazing and by supporting TOV now, it makes the likelihood of expansions more likley. As for the complaint about the pricepoint, considering the cost of D&D books are going up as well and we know KP quality greatly outshines D&D, it seems fairish.

[@goblinsandgrowlers]

I think if they move forward with that kind of walled-garden approach, we'll see a lot of players continue to use the 5E rules that are in Creative Commons and just keep playing how they have been. Given how much content is produced by third-party publishers now, there'll be new 5E content coming out for years and years. It's such a different landscape than the shift from 4E to 5E, and maybe that became Kobold Press' play after the SRD went into Creative Commons: release basically a copy of it that they can continue to monetize and try to become THE main player in third-party 5E publishing after WotC shifts to the next iteration.
And, as for backing ToV because it was NOT WotC: That's totally valid! Being deliberate with where you spend your money is the best way to make a statement.