ToV was built to be compatible with all their existing 5E content. They needed to do that to not obsolete all their existing content. In my opinion, they made 5E better with ToV. I am waiting to see what is different from the alpha release to the ToV release in April.
The price of the Alpha Release should definitely be credited to the purchase of the final rule book. I don't think there will be major changes made to the existing material because Kobold Press plans to release TotV next spring, so there simply isn't enough time for a big overhaul.
I think Tales of the Valient needed to be made to ensure that WotC could not pull the rug under them. If WotC had continued the path they started on Kobold Press would really need this AND it would have to be 95% identical to DnD in order for them to keep making stuff that would be compatible. WotC surprisingly backed down and now Tales of the Valiant seems unnessecary. So I agree, it is hard to see who is going to buy it. But it is funded and made... I guess. So there we are.
12:30 Hitdice... I'd to the Math, if it is not a very special monster, I traditionally assume a d8 as to be rolled, so most likely a 20HP monster is a 4, 4+1 or 5HD critter... if it might have class levels like a bugbear captain or a hobgoblin fewmaster, I'd instinctively assume a d10, while a kobold witch doctor would get a d4 - but I'd do so out of 35 years experience... ;)
I am all for simplicity, so having the useless information out is a win for me. But, then again, adding (5d8+4) next to the hp doesn't do much harm either. Ultimately, if they have a clear, strong monster CR guidelines, that probably would solve any issue altogether. ACTUALLY! Now that I am looking at it, the fact that they do NOT include the proficiency bonus is mind-boggling to me. I thought 5e was stupid for not doing it. I have do the math myself, which isn't hard, but there have been a few times in 5e where the monster stats didn't run their own maths with the presumed PB...
Thanks. I didn't back the Kickstarter since I couldn't tell what made it different from normal 5e. The lack of dead levels is nice, though. So I appreciate you actually going through it and identify that it's biggest advantage is literally that it is the same game but not associated with WotC
After reading the alpha release, I also can't tell what really makes it different. Sure, I did encourage them to stop funding WotC. But man, if you are to redo 5e, at least give it some polish. So many things in 5e can do with updated mechanics. Admittedly, paladin, ranger, rogue and warlock were the mosts "problematic" classes for me and they are not present in the alpha release. But so many mechanics and spells can do with some love. I am not convinced rn. I guess I'll play this for a bit until I actually found a new better system. I have some serious 5e fatigue and at this point, it's either I redo everything I dislike about the system or move on. I know one of my players really want to try Daggerheart and I really want to try MCDM. So we'll see.
The subclass at level three works for all classes except two: Sorcerer and Warlock. Sorcerers are born with their power. Warlocks don't get anything until they have made "The Deal". Those are the only two classes that thematically make no sense to have their subclasses any later than 1st level of the class.
Minor error: 3 level subclasses in oneD&D changed back to how it is in 2014 5e, and tov is keeping 3rd level (presumably as far as we are aware) onednd also is going back to individual class spells list and toad is staying with sources (again, presumably because it's not fully released yet)
The Kickstarter made a lot of money and had a lot of backers, I don't think support's going to be the main issue. And as for similarities to the system, it's based on. That's basically what Pathfinder started as they did not make that many radical changes in their first edition and they're fine now Overall, I think ToV is for people who like kobold press books and like 5e, don't like wotc lackluster releases they have been making (Spelljammer was awful)
Totally agree with you Jeff. It's not the first time i've questioned Kobold's business practises. They are a bit better now, but a few years back if you needed certain books to run a module, for example, there would be no indication of that in the blurbs. It's since become pretty standard practice industry wide to have all needed statblocks provided with the product. A good thing.
I would to point out some of the material in the Alpha has changed …and since this release we got a glimpse at a 20 level cleric class …as well as looks into the Bard, Ranger, Druid and Warlock classes …. Now this game is still in development and Kobold Press has as always been transparent in this process ….. I have hope and if want give feedback please do so in a constructive manner … They going through a lot of info over the last month from additional playtests feedback and Gen Con event feedback
I didn't backed the project and i don't intend to play the game, but i'm thinking that Tales of the Valiant is for people who want to play 5e, but are tired of the few classes and subclasses option, are tired of new content being released every 4 years, and want to have more without relying on 3rd party that sometimes are unbalanced or simply not accepted at the table. I think that Tales of the Valiant is a way to expand 5e with new classes, subclasses, spells, mechanics, etc, without going 3rd party, because everything released for Tales of the Valiant will become official since the creators are effectively 3rd party content creator
Right now I am interested in playing Red Sky which uses the 5E system, if I decide I want to play something more high fantasy it would be nice to have something with a similar rule set that isn’t by WOTC, I will not be purchasing anymore of their products.
For me its a system that is supported in FoundryVTT off the bat from the publisher in a fully official capacity. I can plug in all the kobold 5e supplements. I can use all my existing kobold purchases and I dont have to do any personal development work or rebuy books on DDB to import. Stops me from having to enter the walled garden.
I disagree when talking about "hit dice". I've never been a big D&D guy (Palladium was my game system), so when I started getting into D&D stuff recently I found Hit DIce to be weird and redundant. I would rather just give a monster hit points and be done. If you want a bigger or smaller Monster-X, then just do it. Have 3 goblins with 8 hit points, and their leader with 12 hit points. But, that is a GM thing. hell, I would even put that in a description of combat where the GM has modified a badguy from the norm. I won't be getting this Tales of the Valiant game. There are plenty of free games that you can get. Pocket Fantasy, Basic Fantasy, Olde Swords Reign, Mini-Six Bare Bones, ect. I recommend all four of those games to anybody.
Is this not exactly what KP said they were going to do? They said that they were going to make ToV fully compatible with 5e, so that people would atill be able to use their 5e KP materials. By necessity, then, the ruleset is going to have to be very similar. Where's the surprise? I don't get it.
The surprise isn't the similarity. The surprise is how much of the alpha is the 5E SRD verbatim. Some of the minor differences are actually things which have publicly been revealed as being in the next D&D core release next year. I dig Kobold quite a bit but there's a huge difference in being "compatible" and being "nearly identical." ~ Jeff
Anyone that thought ToV was going to be radically different that 5E, didn't read the Black Flag announcement very carefully. It was stated upfront to be 5E with a Kobold Press spin like all of their current player facing stuff.
I have to agree, though I might replace "very carefully" with "at all". They are doing exactly what they said they would, and folks are acting surprised. Bizarre.
I wonder how many hours the “I’m not giving WotC another dime!” crowd has put into BG3? I am a fan of KP press and backed this project, but it is not distinct enough to draw much audience beyond the Kickstarter, imo. And as much hate that WotC has drawn, One DnD’s release is likely to dominate gaming next year and dwarf TotV.
You stole the words out of me. And worst thing is, I feel more excited to see One DnD than TotV because, at the end, I'm a DM. I will pick the better system of the two. Which likely, at this point, won't be either of them.
@@lovethepandainyouwith Shadowdark, there has risen another player. And paizos rearrangement of pf2 had an effect too. Wotc is the dark enemy, I will not consider any of their products. And my players aren't willing to play 5e, of any sort
I was really disappointed in "project black flag". When the whole OGL fiasco was going on, Kobold Press basically said "hey, screw you WotC! We are breaking away and doing our own thing, coming out with our own RPG" And then they basically release 5e with some words changed. It's like the middle school kid who copies the encyclopedia article (Wikipedia these days) and changes a few words. I felt they basically said "hey, screw you WotC" while then making a living off a product they didn't really come up with. I just thought it was hypocritical.
Charging for a playtest of a system that's pretty much a cut-and-paste Creative Commons clone - good business comes from good business practice and I agree - this is not it.
I'll admit I'm only getting into ToV because I'm a huge midgard/KP fan, but I do hard agree with overpriced pdf. Not only is it an alpha playtest, but it's a straight up copy/paste, should not be $10.
I won't say that I love the RPG Community and support WoTC at the same time. No one can and tell the truth. It's like paying the bully to go beat up your best friend.
You struggle with the concept of degrees or ranges of things, don't you? A company putting out a product that you can take or leave is nothing nothing nothing like what WoTC tried and still wants to do. Destroying competition can't even be called capitalism, it's closer to fascism and that's WoTC. They are Evil.
Had a similar reaction to the playtest PDF. Thought it was going to be something new, and it's unabashedly a clone. What I LIKE about this is that I can still use all my 5e stuff, and I can keep supporting the third-party designers of 5e material, without spending that 'nother dime on WotC. I can do the same thing with Bugbears & Borderlands (Izegrim Creations) or LevelUp 5e (ENWorld), so the function isn't unique to TotV, but I love having options, and Kobold Press is bound to design more stuff for this. -Sean from Chicagoland
Still really not a big fan of their layouts, especially these blue beveled lines they put everywhere on their releases. It reminds me of website designs from the early 2000's and I find really odd for medfan content.
As a backer of TotV, I'm not that worried because I still feel burned by Wizards/OGL stuff and I like the hipster idea of never running a 5e campaign as a DM again. Going forward, I'll only run TotV games. Hasbro is 3rd party in my headcannon. Target audience is hipsters that hold a grudge?
It's the same WoTC now as then. It's not about holding a grudge, it's about having self respect and caring just a little about the community as a whole. Because WoTC tried to destroy it all. And they haven't given up that mission.
ToV was built to be compatible with all their existing 5E content. They needed to do that to not obsolete all their existing content. In my opinion, they made 5E better with ToV. I am waiting to see what is different from the alpha release to the ToV release in April.
I am interested in what the final product turns out as, that's for sure! ~ Jeff
The price of the Alpha Release should definitely be credited to the purchase of the final rule book. I don't think there will be major changes made to the existing material because Kobold Press plans to release TotV next spring, so there simply isn't enough time for a big overhaul.
I believe that most of the folks who backed the Kickstarter got the Alpha Release for free. I know I did.
I think Tales of the Valient needed to be made to ensure that WotC could not pull the rug under them. If WotC had continued the path they started on Kobold Press would really need this AND it would have to be 95% identical to DnD in order for them to keep making stuff that would be compatible.
WotC surprisingly backed down and now Tales of the Valiant seems unnessecary. So I agree, it is hard to see who is going to buy it. But it is funded and made... I guess. So there we are.
Jeff, you rock. Honest review 👌 🇺🇲
12:30 Hitdice... I'd to the Math, if it is not a very special monster, I traditionally assume a d8 as to be rolled, so most likely a 20HP monster is a 4, 4+1 or 5HD critter... if it might have class levels like a bugbear captain or a hobgoblin fewmaster, I'd instinctively assume a d10, while a kobold witch doctor would get a d4 - but I'd do so out of 35 years experience... ;)
I am all for simplicity, so having the useless information out is a win for me. But, then again, adding (5d8+4) next to the hp doesn't do much harm either. Ultimately, if they have a clear, strong monster CR guidelines, that probably would solve any issue altogether.
ACTUALLY! Now that I am looking at it, the fact that they do NOT include the proficiency bonus is mind-boggling to me. I thought 5e was stupid for not doing it. I have do the math myself, which isn't hard, but there have been a few times in 5e where the monster stats didn't run their own maths with the presumed PB...
Now on drive thru for free. Good job Gaming Game. They're finding out real fast that they need to do more.
My bad! that was the preview that was free. These people are delusional.
Thanks. I didn't back the Kickstarter since I couldn't tell what made it different from normal 5e. The lack of dead levels is nice, though. So I appreciate you actually going through it and identify that it's biggest advantage is literally that it is the same game but not associated with WotC
It's not owned and controlled by Hasbro/WoTC, that's what makes it different. Don't pay your bully to bully you. Love yourself.
After reading the alpha release, I also can't tell what really makes it different. Sure, I did encourage them to stop funding WotC. But man, if you are to redo 5e, at least give it some polish. So many things in 5e can do with updated mechanics. Admittedly, paladin, ranger, rogue and warlock were the mosts "problematic" classes for me and they are not present in the alpha release. But so many mechanics and spells can do with some love. I am not convinced rn. I guess I'll play this for a bit until I actually found a new better system. I have some serious 5e fatigue and at this point, it's either I redo everything I dislike about the system or move on. I know one of my players really want to try Daggerheart and I really want to try MCDM. So we'll see.
The subclass at level three works for all classes except two: Sorcerer and Warlock. Sorcerers are born with their power. Warlocks don't get anything until they have made "The Deal". Those are the only two classes that thematically make no sense to have their subclasses any later than 1st level of the class.
Minor error: 3 level subclasses in oneD&D changed back to how it is in 2014 5e, and tov is keeping 3rd level (presumably as far as we are aware)
onednd also is going back to individual class spells list and toad is staying with sources (again, presumably because it's not fully released yet)
The Kickstarter made a lot of money and had a lot of backers, I don't think support's going to be the main issue. And as for similarities to the system, it's based on. That's basically what Pathfinder started as they did not make that many radical changes in their first edition and they're fine now
Overall, I think ToV is for people who like kobold press books and like 5e, don't like wotc lackluster releases they have been making (Spelljammer was awful)
Totally agree with you Jeff. It's not the first time i've questioned Kobold's business practises. They are a bit better now, but a few years back if you needed certain books to run a module, for example, there would be no indication of that in the blurbs. It's since become pretty standard practice industry wide to have all needed statblocks provided with the product. A good thing.
I would to point out some of the material in the Alpha has changed …and since this release we got a glimpse at a 20 level cleric class …as well as looks into the Bard, Ranger, Druid and Warlock classes ….
Now this game is still in development and Kobold Press has as always been transparent in this process …..
I have hope and if want give feedback please do so in a constructive manner …
They going through a lot of info over the last month from additional playtests feedback and Gen Con event feedback
This is 100% for gms who will not give wotc another dime, but whose players dont want to move away from 5e...that is me.
Old game, meet the new game, same as the old game. 5e with a paint job.
and yeah 10$ for a playtest that is a copy paste is ridiculous.
I didn't backed the project and i don't intend to play the game, but i'm thinking that Tales of the Valiant is for people who want to play 5e, but are tired of the few classes and subclasses option, are tired of new content being released every 4 years, and want to have more without relying on 3rd party that sometimes are unbalanced or simply not accepted at the table. I think that Tales of the Valiant is a way to expand 5e with new classes, subclasses, spells, mechanics, etc, without going 3rd party, because everything released for Tales of the Valiant will become official since the creators are effectively 3rd party content creator
Right now I am interested in playing Red Sky which uses the 5E system, if I decide I want to play something more high fantasy it would be nice to have something with a similar rule set that isn’t by WOTC, I will not be purchasing anymore of their products.
For me its a system that is supported in FoundryVTT off the bat from the publisher in a fully official capacity. I can plug in all the kobold 5e supplements. I can use all my existing kobold purchases and I dont have to do any personal development work or rebuy books on DDB to import. Stops me from having to enter the walled garden.
I disagree when talking about "hit dice". I've never been a big D&D guy (Palladium was my game system), so when I started getting into D&D stuff recently I found Hit DIce to be weird and redundant. I would rather just give a monster hit points and be done. If you want a bigger or smaller Monster-X, then just do it. Have 3 goblins with 8 hit points, and their leader with 12 hit points. But, that is a GM thing. hell, I would even put that in a description of combat where the GM has modified a badguy from the norm.
I won't be getting this Tales of the Valiant game. There are plenty of free games that you can get. Pocket Fantasy, Basic Fantasy, Olde Swords Reign, Mini-Six Bare Bones, ect. I recommend all four of those games to anybody.
And Basic Fantasy just got a new edition recently too! Mainly to leave the OGL behind but still, it's a new edition and absolutely free. ~ Jeff
Is this not exactly what KP said they were going to do? They said that they were going to make ToV fully compatible with 5e, so that people would atill be able to use their 5e KP materials. By necessity, then, the ruleset is going to have to be very similar. Where's the surprise? I don't get it.
The surprise isn't the similarity. The surprise is how much of the alpha is the 5E SRD verbatim. Some of the minor differences are actually things which have publicly been revealed as being in the next D&D core release next year. I dig Kobold quite a bit but there's a huge difference in being "compatible" and being "nearly identical." ~ Jeff
Anyone that thought ToV was going to be radically different that 5E, didn't read the Black Flag announcement very carefully. It was stated upfront to be 5E with a Kobold Press spin like all of their current player facing stuff.
I have to agree, though I might replace "very carefully" with "at all". They are doing exactly what they said they would, and folks are acting surprised. Bizarre.
I wonder how many hours the “I’m not giving WotC another dime!” crowd has put into BG3?
I am a fan of KP press and backed this project, but it is not distinct enough to draw much audience beyond the Kickstarter, imo. And as much hate that WotC has drawn, One DnD’s release is likely to dominate gaming next year and dwarf TotV.
You stole the words out of me. And worst thing is, I feel more excited to see One DnD than TotV because, at the end, I'm a DM. I will pick the better system of the two. Which likely, at this point, won't be either of them.
I have not played it at all, not a single minute...
@@lovethepandainyouwith Shadowdark, there has risen another player. And paizos rearrangement of pf2 had an effect too.
Wotc is the dark enemy, I will not consider any of their products. And my players aren't willing to play 5e, of any sort
I was really disappointed in "project black flag". When the whole OGL fiasco was going on, Kobold Press basically said "hey, screw you WotC! We are breaking away and doing our own thing, coming out with our own RPG"
And then they basically release 5e with some words changed. It's like the middle school kid who copies the encyclopedia article (Wikipedia these days) and changes a few words.
I felt they basically said "hey, screw you WotC" while then making a living off a product they didn't really come up with. I just thought it was hypocritical.
Charging for a playtest of a system that's pretty much a cut-and-paste Creative Commons clone - good business comes from good business practice and I agree - this is not it.
I like the Art
I'll admit I'm only getting into ToV because I'm a huge midgard/KP fan, but I do hard agree with overpriced pdf. Not only is it an alpha playtest, but it's a straight up copy/paste, should not be $10.
I got so disappointed when I read this alpha release too...
Even Level Up manuals has more new things to offer to d20 than this TotV.
I think it is for those of us who love 5e but are completely done with WotC.
I won't say that I love the RPG Community and support WoTC at the same time. No one can and tell the truth. It's like paying the bully to go beat up your best friend.
First publishing their own TTRPG as a protest against WofC being greedy and then charing $9.99 for their Alpha Release
You struggle with the concept of degrees or ranges of things, don't you? A company putting out a product that you can take or leave is nothing nothing nothing like what WoTC tried and still wants to do. Destroying competition can't even be called capitalism, it's closer to fascism and that's WoTC. They are Evil.
Had a similar reaction to the playtest PDF. Thought it was going to be something new, and it's unabashedly a clone. What I LIKE about this is that I can still use all my 5e stuff, and I can keep supporting the third-party designers of 5e material, without spending that 'nother dime on WotC. I can do the same thing with Bugbears & Borderlands (Izegrim Creations) or LevelUp 5e (ENWorld), so the function isn't unique to TotV, but I love having options, and Kobold Press is bound to design more stuff for this.
-Sean from Chicagoland
Still really not a big fan of their layouts, especially these blue beveled lines they put everywhere on their releases. It reminds me of website designs from the early 2000's and I find really odd for medfan content.
It doesn't bother me much but I certainly can understand your point. ~ Jeff
As a backer of TotV, I'm not that worried because I still feel burned by Wizards/OGL stuff and I like the hipster idea of never running a 5e campaign as a DM again. Going forward, I'll only run TotV games. Hasbro is 3rd party in my headcannon. Target audience is hipsters that hold a grudge?
It's the same WoTC now as then. It's not about holding a grudge, it's about having self respect and caring just a little about the community as a whole. Because WoTC tried to destroy it all. And they haven't given up that mission.
@@dane3038 To be clear, I'm a hipster holding a grudge against WOTC. Self respect is nice and all, but I just hate WOTC lol
Sounds like a halfway decent OSR game so far since it at least has this random beastkin thing.
It's not OSR at all; it's 98% 5E.