Balance idea: elephant archers permanently start with +1 elevation to reflect how tall they are. On even ground they'd get a bonus, plus another unit would have to be 2 tiles up on them to be at an advantage.
Elephant Archers being classified as Cavalry Archer really hurts them. They have none of the typical advantages other CA have with good hit-and-run tactics and mobility. Similar to how the Condottiero got a unique armor class to help balancing the unit, Elephant Archers should probably get the same.
Condo's unique armor class is only for it mitigating Hand cannoneer bonus damage, not the other infantry bonus damage types. Before the special armor class the unit took 10 less damage from cataphracts, slingers etc. So the unique armor class was actually a nerf. Elephant archer's biggest problem is still their Food cost, other archers cost Wood/gold which is more preferable.
@@darkdill so. As the English. How do I catch and kill your elephant archers without skirms? Like all cavalry archers they are supposed to raid and support. Not front line tank damage for an army. Although elephant archers are a bit slow for clean raiding.... What if they could fire on the move with reduced range instead of having to stutterstep 🤔
Things I’d like to see: * Reduced bonus damage against Elephants from Pikes/Skirms. * Add bonus damage from Hand Cannons (and other Gunpowder) against Elephants. * Give the EA to at least some of the SEA civs from Rise of the Rajas.
It'd certainly be nice to see them in the hands of the Burmese and Malay. Yes, the Burmese have an awful Archery Range thanks to no Leather Archer Armor, but maybe their civ bonus of +1/+1 Battle Elephant Armor could also also extend to their Elephant Archers, and maybe also their CA UT too. Malay could also use them as an alternative to their infantry spam. Khmer and Vietnamese, however, shouldn't get them because Vietnamese already have tanky archers (+20% HP on EA's would be too strong), and Khmer already have Ballista Elephants.
Sounds reasonable but balance/Game logic wise not really Why should a hand cannonier, who strength is against inf be strong against a cav. Archer? Next thing: all elephant unit takes s llt of Bonus dmg from pikes and skirms.
@@muskatDR Both Malay & Khmer at least, maybe Burmese too. Malay in particular really would benefit from the EA & AE, they would pair nicely with their Champs
I feel like elephants in general shouldn't take nearly so much bonus damage from the spear line, and skirmishers should be the primary counter. That's more true to real life, spears weren't particularly useful against massed elephants and both the Romans and the Macedonian mostly relied on light troops with javelins. Having them countered both both trash units seems overboard
Way I heard it was the weak point is the hamstring, and melee flanking attacks to the hind legs is what brings them down, with skrimishers mainly trying to distract the animal for the swordsman to get an opening. Actually having them strong vs both halbs and skirms but weak to swords could be an interesting twist.
@@PLCTheCd I like SotL's presentation style and the natural flow of his videos. I also like seeing how AoE2's devs were able to completely shift the balance around just by switching around certain numbers by 10% or so. Finally, I'm thinking of buying DE (mostly due to these videos), so the theorycrafting of this game is appealing to me
The elephant archer seems useless in most situations. It's easily countered and slow. I think they were intended to function like a moveable tower almost. They should reduce the damage from skirmishers a little so they get more use. They feel too easily countered currently. Edit: Reduce or eliminate skirmisher bonus damage but add siege and gun powder bonus damage. Would feel more balanced and somewhat historically accurate. Elephants archers would be good against common projectile units (arrows/javelins). Just watch out for scorpions, mangonels, siege elephants, camels, pikes, and hand cannons.
Skirms definitely counter them too hard. At least archers can retreat but elephants are so slow that they can get chased down and killed by a unit that doesn't even cost gold. They have to trade somewhat equal to skirms I think otherwise it's just too easy to counter them.
Agreed, only Halbs should do serious bonus damage to elephant archers and they'll have difficulty getting there because they're being fired at and sniped off before reaching the elephant archer.
The biggest problem with elephants in general is that they're expensive, slow, and easily countered by cheap trash units. If the extra bonus damage that these units get against elephants were to be removed, they would be a lot more viable.
TBF Hindustanis usually represent the central asians who ruled over north of India. These are mostly turks, Uzbeks, Tajiks and Mongols. They used horse archers and not elephant archers
@@nishantchoudhary8540 They are represented by Bengalis because classically Nandas amongst others moved further eastward by the end. Remember even Prithviraj Chauhan is represented on a horse with bow not an elephant
The OG elephant archer was already easily countered and was expensive. Why on earth did the devs increase the bonus damage EAs took when that was the whole reason no one used them in the first place?
OG elephant archer was more expensive than these ones and was much harder to mass. Once they reach a critical mass they are stronger than arbs and unable to be countered by the usual units (skirms,mangonel).
@@pax6833 The thing is, if you let an enemy get to that critical mass, you already fucked up. Even if you can make them from Archery Ranges, Elephant Archers require a *massive* economy to "spam" them.
Good analysis, IMO Elephant archers will never be anything but a meme unit, as their cost is prohibitive, and their only niche is countering xbow/arbs once you have massed ele archers. The issue with this is that a player that already has gone into xbow/arb will have a way easier time transitioning into skirms than the elephant archer player will have transitioning into ele archers
i dont think so. They are incredible in Imperial Age, especially if massed (team games are great for that). It's resistance to mangos is something to highlight as skirmishers take alot of pop space
I think the issue is that Halbs and Skirms do too much bonus damage. Something is only cost prohibitive if you lose it too quickly. Especially a unit that comes advertised as being tanky with lots of HP. And indeed the Elephant Archer is a beautiful unit with lots HP. On paper the high cost seems to be worth it. But then in reality as soon as you encounter skirms, suddenly that HP might as well be 70 not 270. And that's a problem because if the unit fails at being what it's being advertised to do (being tanky), suddenly your only option is retreat. But retreat isn't really an option either because elephants are slow. So what are elephant archers then if not tanky nor mobile? Useless.
@@theophileburtz1624 they really aren't though, unless you are playing a map like Michi. Your opponent going for xbow is going to be imp so much faster than you, and get their upgrades faster than you. Elite costs 1000f 800g, and you are already going for a unit that costs 90f 70g. It isnt realistic
@@TheChimples every mass of archers (be it elephant, cav or arbs) shred halberdiers, just put some of yours in front. Skirmishers are now much less efficient against at least one civ. And they're all untouchable from mangonels. I won't stress enough how scary 20 elephants look like. Especially with another a melee unit to help push
@@theophileburtz1624 I have to agree with you on halbs. They hard counter elephants when attacking them from up close but a big enough elephant army can hold its position incredibly well agains a stream of halbs, maybe even advance against them slowly In team games with a teuton player going melee it's VERY hard to counter elephants
I had the same q. I think what u will get is either both of them, or the native one. Which in the indian civz case is the elephants and the others is cav archers
considering that Incas with All Techs still doesn't have access to hand cannons (because the slot is used as their unique unit), it will possibly stick with what your civ originally have. Though, this could be changed by changing the slot in Editor
A few ways to buff Elephant Archers: 1. Increase their range. There's a reason why archers mounted on elephants are deadly. They have a higher vantage point and can spot and attack enemies farther away. 2. Increase their attack. There's a single archer who has plenty of room in the howdah to accommodate an Indian longbow with extra ammunition, so he's not restricted in his movements. 3. Give anti cavalry and anti camel bonus. Historically, elephants were the bane of cavalry, because the elephants would spook the horses and camels. It took a great deal of courage and disciplined elite cavalry to charge elephants to kill them. Even if the cavalry got into melee with the elephants, the archers can easily bring down the cavalrymen from above. 4. Let them only take bonus damage from skirmishers, and have some melee armour. Elephant archers usually had decently armoured animals as mounts. Plus the elephant's hide is quite thick, you can wound and infuriate elephants but you would need a lot of arrows to bring down an elephant. Javelins on the other hand penetrate quite well, so skirmishers can dispatch elephants easily.
@@nguyenhuyduc9151 having the huge hp pool is meaningless when an ant stings you and it does as much damage as a shotgun blast. these overly exaggerated bonus damage really hurt what's cool about these units
In actual gameplay elephant archers still roll skirms if massed. If skirms didn't have the bonus there'd be nothing that could take down elephant archers with reasonable cost exchange.
@@dontspikemydrink9382 Parthians were Iranic nomads of Central Asia who used cav archers like the other Steppe peoples. The Parthian empire used to use cavalry either as cav arcehrs for hit and run tactics or heavy Cataphracts. No way you can use hit and run Parthain can archer tactics on elephants who are slow and clumsy.
But what type of a unit would it be? Halbs counter cav, Champions counter trash. What would a n ew unit do? Countering archers would destroy game balance, perhaps a cheap yet fast raiding unit could be viable? But then again we have cavs and particularly Hussars for that. Siege destroy buildings and champions also have damage. There are no infantry units to be added ;(
I'm pretty sure they scraped that idea and kept it only to the Meszo Ciz + UU which is fine there is alot of Infantry in the game they're just at the castle
@@johnxina5126 Maybe there's a niche for a counter-infantry infantry? Like the Hypaspist and the Axeman in Age of Mythology. But then again there's plenty of options for countering pikes and champs already... In the medieval era, that'd be a sword-and-buckler/rodelero to stick to the theme (IRL they were intended to sneak past pikes and close the distance on halberdiers and other two handed weapon users)
@@johnxina5126 Well they have roles for plenty of ranged, cavalry and siege units. And they could opt for cultural replacements too, like the new siege elephant has the same role as the ram and here the elephant archer has the similar role of the horse archer. For a new role, some cheap quickly trained infantry that's weak but great for town defence could be useful. Not something to really assault an enemy town with, but good at fending off raids. They could have increased speed around the player's own buildings but be slow outside of that and have terrible line of sight, to discourage them being used for raiding. Some sort of spearman line with a shield could also be a cultural alternative for some civs, could be a middle eastern/african looking spearman that has a little more defence against archers but could have a bit lower attack. A foot knight could also be a good tougher and more expensive late game infantry unit exclusive to mainly european civs, whoever had knights. could be armed with a shield and a mace. An expensive pole axe unit could also be something, good against cavalry and infantry. Kind of a champion and halberdier in one, but could be more expensive, especially in gold cost.
Makes sense for skirmishers to be good vs elephants as javelins were potent against them. But halb bonus is absurd. Maybe against war elephants. But battle and Archer elephants thats pretty brutal.
Yea, it's not like battle/archer ele could easily outrun halbs like normal cav could, nor can they tank the damage as competently as persian war ele. +60 against a unit that cant outrun u well enough, cant tank too well, and is expensive to mass for me is too hard of a counter.
Wow, i think the exact opposite haha Halbs should counter them hard because closing the distance between the units is already a challenge. Elite skirms on the other hand can just spit +13 damage from afar.
I think damage from halbs should be halved like the 32 it normally does to cavalry and same for the skirm. That way the best counter depends on who's EA you're facing. If they don't have parthian tactics go halbs, if they don't go skirms, anyways you'll have to get a good mass of them before trying to stop them because trickling units won't do enough damage.
Dravidian Elephant Archers are like contemporary armour support vehicles. You use a core of them to support your infantry tactics and they can really mow down other units trying to get close to them. A group of Elephant Archers are like a tanky core that can be used like a bunch of mobile towers to help you lockdown sections of the battlefield.
It feels a bit silly that the elephant itself isn't really contributing to the attack with these units. It would be really cool to see a Battle Elephant that controls as a melee unit but also does passive ranged damage like a tower.
It's a good point you make, lbut again it is only a game, and so therefore balance has to be taken into account. If balance were not taken into account, then we would have trebuchets in the Castle Age, Goths would not have hand cannons, Chinese would have gunpowder, and the Mayans would still have obsidian arrows.
I just wish the elephant archer was like it’s actual historical counterpart, which was actually a powerful war elephant that carried 4 archers or musketeers, or a bombard cannon on its back. I guess that would have been the most OP. It’s an unfortunate ahistorical feature of game design, but I kind of get the reasons why. Historically though the Sassanid Persians were more famous for their heavy horse cavalry and archers.
@@Thanatos833 And bombards existed historically in the medieval era. Doing a quick google search for cannons being mounted on elephants, it seems they were small cannons used in an anti-personnel role not a siege one. Also seems they existed after the medieval period. Generally speaking anything after the 16th century is not touched by AoE2. So no elephants with cannons.
Recently I massed elephant archers vs. Vietnamese because I assumed the Vietnamese player would use the archer line. However, I got shredded by massed Imp skirms. The elephants just melted 😅.
I personally love playing with elephant units, having these massive titans charge forward into battles... however, they are overall usually underwhelming. In case of the indian regional elephant archers, they are a walking liability. Extremly costly at 90 food, 70 gold. They are extremely slow, and have many counters, like skirms, mass pikes, monks. While having decently high HP, they simply don't have enough fire power to justify they're cost. You literally can't chase down any unit, and when out numbered by elephant counters, your too slow to run away. Something has to be done to give the elephant archers a true purpose. Lets face it, too slow to raid, too easy to counter, and too expensive to mass. Pro's will never really use this unit in actual high level competitions. The fact that cheap non-gold units like skirms have so much bonus damage against them, will never allow them to be useful. And as far as what Spirit of the Law says, they are a cost effective counter to achers, well so are skirms too. But at least skirms don't cost gold. If they arn't buffed in upcoming patch, then they're basically un-usable. They either need, far less bonus damage from skirms, cheaper cost, even more HP, or some type of special ability like garrisoning archer ranged units for insane firepower, to be a type of rolling tower to make these expensive meat shields useful.
Sure skirm can counter them But from the 3 ranged unit who gets countered easily on mass? A few onager shot and you easily reduce the other army, And it would be silly to use ele Archer as only that. I think siege would work well as you can easily counter Trash with them, but yourself is resistent to that
They need their own armor class. It would help them stand out in their role more. Being easily countered by much, much cheaper trash units significantly hinders their viability.
For their cost, they're too easily countered by trash. With CA you can at least run away from skirms and even outmicro pikes but with these you are basically helpless.
Hey SotL, love your videos - I'm especially looking forward to more of the 'Evolution' series. If you're looking for video ideas after that, though, I'd really appreciate a follow-up on that Krakenmeister civ builder one from a year ago. Specifically, he's added a lot of selectable unique units that use hero/cheat unit models, and there are 'Royal' upgrades to Battle Elephants and Steppe Lancers. I'd absolutely love a detailed look at these units' base stats, bonus damage, etc., as there doesn't seem to be a way to find that info in one place without making and modding in dozens of different civs that each have one of the units.
i like how you used the most dominant color from the civs emblem to represent them ingame, and also had the text color to match -great pedagogy! maybe youve been doing doing it like this before too but i just noticed :p gj keep it up
This is the best channel about Elephant Facts I've ever found. Keep up with the good work! Also, I must admit that you might have some future with this "age of empires" thing you play.
Yeah, what's the point on having your archer in one of the most intelligent and giant animals on earth to make him take care of both shooting and riding. The big advantage of the elephant is that you can get multiple people on top of them, so you could have an specialized rider and more soldiers, vs the horse that can only take one person
I would increase their range of attack to make them at least somewhat viable as a defensive unit behind walls. Like a mobile tower. It would also be cool to garrison archers in them to shot additional arrows. Or they should induce trample damage to help mitigate the halb counter.
Philosophical question: Is the best version of a unit the one that's best against what it's supposed to counter or the one best against its own counters?
Units that are good against their counters or hard to counter are considered the best. Consider the long-time favorite unique units: Mangudai, Cataphracts, Huskarls, Longbows. All of them are strong against the things that would counter the most similar generic unit.
Asking the real questions in life, I see. Hmmm. I'd say that I'd rather have a unit that's at par against it's normal target as a generic unit while being more invincible against its own counter than a unit that leans into its strength and is better than generic against its normal target while just as vulnerable against its typical counter. Having the same ceiling but a much higher floor just means you can do your work without the enemy being able to do a blessed thing about it. :D
Always love it when you do detailed breakdowns like this! Would love to see something like this with camels too; it's one thing to compare camels vs camels and camels vs knights; but how do the top camel civs' camels fare when fighting units that they aren't specialised against (such as longswordsmen or archers)
By the by, SOTL, Paiks affects 4 (sort of 5) units; you forgot to mention the Battle Elephant and Armored Elephant. I think that makes the tech a lot more worthwhile. Certainly not as good as Thumbring for archer units, but pretty great when considering that it helps, effectively, two archer units, two melee units, and one siege unit, given the Ratha's switch ability, and can seriously speed up razings enemy towns. All that taken into consideration, it seems fairly worth the price to me.
My first impression, looking at these elephant archers, is that we may see a new era for the Genoese Crossbowman. Where before I would struggle to find an effective use for them, using them as a hard hitting counter that can reach out and touch the elephant archers seems like it would be extremely cost effective. In the past I viewed the Italians as the ultimate anti-cav archer civ, but aside from Mongol/Magyar players the Cav archer is a fairly rare unit to see. However, this new meta seems like it may shake some things up! Great video as usual Spirit!
@@QuintemTA Agreed, they seem to suffer from the same problem that regular cav archers do. I.E. very expensive for what will essentially be a rear line support unit
imagine a op custom civ made around all of the elephant units (the battle elephant, siege elephant, war elephant, and elephant archer) with ALL the elephant relevant techs
I wish AOE could do the same as Rise of nations or LOTR BFME where the elephant unit has both melee and ranged attach possible i.e. a combination of the war elephant with multiple archers/ javelins on top as was in real life
I think this matches up with your recent video on the Indian Civs, adding weight to the fact how the Bengalis get a large power spike as the game progresses, and do not so well early-game. Like how their EA is the best in Imperial Age, while they were essentially the worst in Castle Age.
I see a lot of elephant archers in low elo black forest team games. Advancing with them when you're also already starting to treb castles puts a lot of pressure on the opponents defending since they're very strong en masse and hard enough to kill that a lot of them may still be up when their castle is down. Also works as a back line for the elephant rams. Kinda reminds me how teutons slowly advance with strong melee units but instead it's tanky ranged units.
Typically if you have an expensive, tanky but slow-moving range unit, you would want them to have a lot of range to not being kited by other cheaper but faster units. Micro is a real issue in AOE game. I still find it weird that Elephant Archer was so weirdly designed that they can't be effectively used.
Dam this is tricky ... but Spirit of the law makes it feel simple lol. Guy is so good at explaining stuff i still watch his videos even when i do not play the game anymore XD
My takeaway here is that going elephant archers is a gamble that can pay off in the right circumstances, but needs protection from their counters to be effective more broadly. Because of their slow speed, pairing them with onagers seems like a sensible solution as the onagers can take out massed trash units while the elephant archers soak up the damage. Probably still need some melee units in reserve in case the trash units get too close.
Dravidians seems like to best to me after watching this video. Theses tests show that they are good while not even taking into account how useful the regeneration can be between fights.
60 bonus damage vs elephants seems too much, elephants already have some negative armor classes vs a variety of units and them such a massive bonus damage is devastating
Apparently the devs wanted to make people use this unit more, by making it regional and available in the archery range. However that won't happen until Elephant Archers are improved drastically. As of now they are next to useless in most situations. I feel that especially the damage skirmishers do to them is ridiculous, considering their price and the cheapness of skirms. IMO, they should be removed from the archer / cav archer armor class and instead get an armor class of their own. They could also do with increased attack and firing rate.
Generally, ranged tanks are rarely all that useful unless they can either give some back or have some support ability that increases the priority of taking them down. Me personally, I would buff their damage a wee bit, +2 vs spear line and +5 vs siege.
They were never really used to begin with. Slow average expensive units that take tons of damage from trash plus no conversion resistance plus no particular specialty with the only thing going for them that they resist archerfire some what
Actually, I personally believe the Dravidians are actually best in battles of attrition. With the faster fire rate that makes more of a different in long fights combined with medical corps for better long term value ( the larger health pool means the regen will have more time to work) Especially when you think that after. Fight, most of the time your elephants will come out alive. Gives you a way to recover without being forced to make monks or return to a castle Elephant archers I think are under appreciated for the simple fact they have all the advantages of an archer without the weakness of being very squishy.
It's kind of ironic that what used to be the Indian civ, the only civ with elephant archers, is now the only civ in the region without it, but I guess that's also a little more historically accurate given how the jungles where elephant thrive are located more in the southern and eastern parts of India, rather than the northwestern region
Bit of an off request but, since you're doing a look at how the original civs evolved through the years, could you please do a video on the knight? Its ubiquity in competitive play, from Frank dominance to Hun dominance and beyond, seems like something that should be examined. I mean, if the numbers are actually examined, I'm curious to see if knights have been overpowered for literal decades and people just accepted it as the norm.
Elephant archers should have both melee and ranged attack, and should be able to use both attacks simultaneously to stand ground against halbs and cavalry
Overall, the elephant archer is a mostly useless unit. Monks ruin it. Cavalry ruin it. Halbs ruin it. Skirmishers ruin it. And it ruins only archers, but costs more, isn't as mobile and can't force fights. An absolutely terrible unit, and always has been.
Ele archers are faster than regular archers with husbandry. They are however, more difficult to mass. They basically fulfill the same role as archers now.
They're not the greatest unit in the game but they're far from useless, I (a 1400) managed to hold a pretty brutal assault with ele archers and if you're wondering why I didn't go skirms, they can't force fights to save their lives
A lot of criticism in the comments seem like people have not actually seen them used in play. None of the complaints about them being weak make any sense if you have seen pros employ them. They are very difficult to counter.
9:31 Loved that sarcasm, but for real this unit is even worse then what it was when Indians had them, they should improve Tech tree that's around them, reduce their cost more and reduce their train time otherwise they are just cool looking unit with no use Edit: I mentioned they have no use but only in multiplayer, in campaign they are fun 😂😂
Giving Elephant archers trample damage would be interesting i think. They would still have a ranged attack but at the same time do aoe near themselves.
I wish this was implemented. Would make a lot of sense too. The whole point of an elephant archer is that it was a tank, the archers were just the cherry on top.
I mean, all things considered, I think the ones with partían tactics are the best. I mean they are countered by spearman but the extra damage means that a critical más will clean them before they reach them. The extra pierce armor makes them better on their role too which is great, overall my only issue with them is that I can't really think of a good unit composition with them. They are a damage sponge but you don't want them fighting against knights or spearman, so you need units to defeat that. I can imagine using them with artillery and spearman to counter knights and serve as shields against other spearman but it might be too heavy of a composition.
Yeah, I feel like the lack of good light cav really hurts these civs, they could use them to counter siege and skirms, and to have some raid power. Adding battle elephants to the EA composition just feels wierd, because you're still countered by spears and skirms can just run away from BE and into your EA with no problem, so the issue remains.
@@TBPetitP yeah for me it feels like the concept of the elephant archer is kind of flawed. If it could fire and move then there would be some potential but otherwise I feel like they lack purpose.
Counter units are expensive to upgrade, elite scrimmisher and Pikeman are pretty costly in castle age That's the only good time I've found to use them get them in early castleage and they can actually dominate
They should have 0 cav archer armour, maybe regain that bonus damage against buildings and also be given to the persians and south east asian civs (PD: I'm pretty sure they take the same spot as cav archers out of convenience and giving them to this civs wouldn't be much trouble).
I think you undersold the Dravidian's regeneration ability a little. It doesn't do much in most head-to-head matchups, but in a game it can be really handy for your army to regain some of its HP between one fight and the next, especially for weaker players.
Even just mentioning it is overselling it, because the tech is simply a waste if resources. You will hardly ever recover its cost by that slow rate of healing, its better to just make 5 more ele archers. Or even better, just make meta units 🤣
You know, one thing I really wish the devs would do is lower the Halberdier's bonus damage to most Elephant units to something like +40, not +60. However, that +60 could still apply against Persian War Elephants, as that's the unit the bonus was originally intended for. +60 against much lower HP Battle Elephants, Elephant Archers, and Ballista Elephants, feels too strong for a trash unit. Even if their bonus damage against Battle Elephants and Elephant Archers was reduced to +40 instead of +60, Halbs would still be cost-effective against them. Besides, Battle Elephants aren't used in 1v1's because in Castle Age, it's Monks that counter them, not Pikes.
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Balance idea: elephant archers permanently start with +1 elevation to reflect how tall they are. On even ground they'd get a bonus, plus another unit would have to be 2 tiles up on them to be at an advantage.
Clever idea! Maybe tricky for the game devs to code though
@@BTobiasJ nah
sounds like a +1 in the code somewhere, maybe not even the code but in a config, db entry or similar for unique values of the unit
I like your idea.
Another idea: give them higher HP, cost, 2 archers instead of 2 but also take 2 or even 3 pop space. Give higher attack range too.
I'm always pumped for an elephant-related SotL video for the possibility of Elephant Facts.
Still a bit sad they're not called "Elephacts" (or "Elefacts" if you want).
Elephant Archers being classified as Cavalry Archer really hurts them. They have none of the typical advantages other CA have with good hit-and-run tactics and mobility.
Similar to how the Condottiero got a unique armor class to help balancing the unit, Elephant Archers should probably get the same.
Condo's unique armor class is only for it mitigating Hand cannoneer bonus damage, not the other infantry bonus damage types. Before the special armor class the unit took 10 less damage from cataphracts, slingers etc. So the unique armor class was actually a nerf.
Elephant archer's biggest problem is still their Food cost, other archers cost Wood/gold which is more preferable.
@@gosphor2826 I know it was a nerf, but a unique armor class can also be used to buff a unit.
it's not the cav archer class that hurts them, but rather the -7 cav archer class armor
@@michaelqiu9722 This. They really shouldn't take so much bonus damage from Skirms. That's one thing really holding them back.
@@darkdill so. As the English. How do I catch and kill your elephant archers without skirms?
Like all cavalry archers they are supposed to raid and support. Not front line tank damage for an army.
Although elephant archers are a bit slow for clean raiding....
What if they could fire on the move with reduced range instead of having to stutterstep 🤔
Things I’d like to see:
* Reduced bonus damage against Elephants from Pikes/Skirms.
* Add bonus damage from Hand Cannons (and other Gunpowder) against Elephants.
* Give the EA to at least some of the SEA civs from Rise of the Rajas.
very nice suggestions, i agree with all of them
It'd certainly be nice to see them in the hands of the Burmese and Malay. Yes, the Burmese have an awful Archery Range thanks to no Leather Archer Armor, but maybe their civ bonus of +1/+1 Battle Elephant Armor could also also extend to their Elephant Archers, and maybe also their CA UT too. Malay could also use them as an alternative to their infantry spam.
Khmer and Vietnamese, however, shouldn't get them because Vietnamese already have tanky archers (+20% HP on EA's would be too strong), and Khmer already have Ballista Elephants.
Sounds reasonable but balance/Game logic wise not really
Why should a hand cannonier, who strength is against inf be strong against a cav. Archer?
Next thing: all elephant unit takes s llt of Bonus dmg from pikes and skirms.
SEA civs: Oh a new unit lemme see...Oh, on second thought were good
@@muskatDR Both Malay & Khmer at least, maybe Burmese too. Malay in particular really would benefit from the EA & AE, they would pair nicely with their Champs
I wish instead of HP regen, the Dravidian UT allowed the ELE archer to garrison upto 3 more units, adding more arrows like a tower.
Beserker seeing a longbowman killing a garrisoned elephant archer:
-Still only count as one!
@@andoreh4021 "Never thought I'd die next to a briton." - How about a friend. "Aye, that I can do."
Nostalgic TLOR quotes moments
that would be either unutilized, or super OP
@@LeicaFleury -How about a 2v2 arena ally?
I feel like elephants in general shouldn't take nearly so much bonus damage from the spear line, and skirmishers should be the primary counter. That's more true to real life, spears weren't particularly useful against massed elephants and both the Romans and the Macedonian mostly relied on light troops with javelins.
Having them countered both both trash units seems overboard
Way I heard it was the weak point is the hamstring, and melee flanking attacks to the hind legs is what brings them down, with skrimishers mainly trying to distract the animal for the swordsman to get an opening. Actually having them strong vs both halbs and skirms but weak to swords could be an interesting twist.
Yeah, i think the bonus DMG in the 50s and 60s is ridiculous, make them 30-40 and at least they'll be more viable
I don't even play DE, but these analyses always tickle my number bone 😄
Why are you watching this then?
Some times I don't watch him for the analyses but his calm relax persona keep me in
@@PLCTheCd i used to play a lot as a kid, but I havent really touched AoE 2 and the new expansions and I enjoy spirits videos'
@@user-jc3vy6tc1n i was referring to Fidget spinner
@@PLCTheCd I like SotL's presentation style and the natural flow of his videos. I also like seeing how AoE2's devs were able to completely shift the balance around just by switching around certain numbers by 10% or so. Finally, I'm thinking of buying DE (mostly due to these videos), so the theorycrafting of this game is appealing to me
The elephant archer seems useless in most situations. It's easily countered and slow. I think they were intended to function like a moveable tower almost. They should reduce the damage from skirmishers a little so they get more use. They feel too easily countered currently.
Edit:
Reduce or eliminate skirmisher bonus damage but add siege and gun powder bonus damage. Would feel more balanced and somewhat historically accurate. Elephants archers would be good against common projectile units (arrows/javelins). Just watch out for scorpions, mangonels, siege elephants, camels, pikes, and hand cannons.
Yeah they really need a buff. They are such a cool unit, they really deserve better.
Skirms definitely counter them too hard. At least archers can retreat but elephants are so slow that they can get chased down and killed by a unit that doesn't even cost gold.
They have to trade somewhat equal to skirms I think otherwise it's just too easy to counter them.
Agreed, only Halbs should do serious bonus damage to elephant archers and they'll have difficulty getting there because they're being fired at and sniped off before reaching the elephant archer.
literally BOTH of the trash units do massive bonus damage to them. So you're right.
Yeah both spearman and skirm counter it. Take a look at the mameluke now that its not countered by skirms, much better unit but not op
Mongol cav archer:
"Who are you?"
Dravidian elephant archer:
"I am you, but chunkier."
The biggest problem with elephants in general is that they're expensive, slow, and easily countered by cheap trash units. If the extra bonus damage that these units get against elephants were to be removed, they would be a lot more viable.
They're not that slow though. They can actually barely outrun archers/skirms with husbandry.
Use Sicilian bonus
nerfed not removed, removing it would make absolutely no sense
@@widodoakrom3938 funny
I'm fascinated by the decision that the civ that had elephant archers as a unique unit doesn't have them now they're a regional unit
This triggers my OCD almost as much as the fact that the old Indians and now Gurjaras have elephant archers but don't have elephant riders.
TBF Hindustanis usually represent the central asians who ruled over north of India. These are mostly turks, Uzbeks, Tajiks and Mongols. They used horse archers and not elephant archers
@@akapbhan mostly Turks but also East Iranians/Afghans also thrown into the many. For e.g the Khilji dynasty of Delhi Sultanate was Afghan/Iranic
@@akapbhan they are basically representing delhi sultanate bcz earliar ruling dynasties like nanda, magadh, mauryans were famous for use of elephants.
@@nishantchoudhary8540 They are represented by Bengalis because classically Nandas amongst others moved further eastward by the end. Remember even Prithviraj Chauhan is represented on a horse with bow not an elephant
The OG elephant archer was already easily countered and was expensive. Why on earth did the devs increase the bonus damage EAs took when that was the whole reason no one used them in the first place?
I'm ok with them being super weak to pikes, but skirms doing that well feels fucked up
OG elephant archer was more expensive than these ones and was much harder to mass. Once they reach a critical mass they are stronger than arbs and unable to be countered by the usual units (skirms,mangonel).
@@pax6833 The thing is, if you let an enemy get to that critical mass, you already fucked up. Even if you can make them from Archery Ranges, Elephant Archers require a *massive* economy to "spam" them.
@@pax6833 Might as well just make a wonder and defend it with an economy like that, makes for a good twist, then.
@@Veristelle- this would genuinely be far easier too. They need a big buff...
2:16 that monk is like, aight, i'mma head out now
Good analysis, IMO Elephant archers will never be anything but a meme unit, as their cost is prohibitive, and their only niche is countering xbow/arbs once you have massed ele archers. The issue with this is that a player that already has gone into xbow/arb will have a way easier time transitioning into skirms than the elephant archer player will have transitioning into ele archers
i dont think so. They are incredible in Imperial Age, especially if massed (team games are great for that). It's resistance to mangos is something to highlight as skirmishers take alot of pop space
I think the issue is that Halbs and Skirms do too much bonus damage. Something is only cost prohibitive if you lose it too quickly. Especially a unit that comes advertised as being tanky with lots of HP.
And indeed the Elephant Archer is a beautiful unit with lots HP. On paper the high cost seems to be worth it. But then in reality as soon as you encounter skirms, suddenly that HP might as well be 70 not 270.
And that's a problem because if the unit fails at being what it's being advertised to do (being tanky), suddenly your only option is retreat. But retreat isn't really an option either because elephants are slow. So what are elephant archers then if not tanky nor mobile?
Useless.
@@theophileburtz1624 they really aren't though, unless you are playing a map like Michi. Your opponent going for xbow is going to be imp so much faster than you, and get their upgrades faster than you. Elite costs 1000f 800g, and you are already going for a unit that costs 90f 70g. It isnt realistic
@@TheChimples every mass of archers (be it elephant, cav or arbs) shred halberdiers, just put some of yours in front. Skirmishers are now much less efficient against at least one civ. And they're all untouchable from mangonels. I won't stress enough how scary 20 elephants look like. Especially with another a melee unit to help push
@@theophileburtz1624 I have to agree with you on halbs. They hard counter elephants when attacking them from up close but a big enough elephant army can hold its position incredibly well agains a stream of halbs, maybe even advance against them slowly
In team games with a teuton player going melee it's VERY hard to counter elephants
I've always loved the way cavalry archers fired on the move in Rise of Nations. Wish AOE had a similar approach
Seems to be a Mongol exclusive (in the 4th one.)
@@SioxGreyWolf hit and run would be even cooler with this. And boats would benefit greatly
The problem there is balance, units that can attack and move are much easier to micro and much harder to balance.
@@SioxGreyWolf Delhi elephant archers fire on the move too
@@QuintemTA They're elephants, not Mangudaïs, micro is not really their greatest strength XD
"The elephant archer takes the same slot as the cavalry archer" - ok but what if you play with All Techs active?
I had the same q. I think what u will get is either both of them, or the native one. Which in the indian civz case is the elephants and the others is cav archers
considering that Incas with All Techs still doesn't have access to hand cannons (because the slot is used as their unique unit), it will possibly stick with what your civ originally have.
Though, this could be changed by changing the slot in Editor
The Elephant Archer is placed at the bottom. Same happens with in the Gujaras stable.
A few ways to buff Elephant Archers:
1. Increase their range.
There's a reason why archers mounted on elephants are deadly. They have a higher vantage point and can spot and attack enemies farther away.
2. Increase their attack.
There's a single archer who has plenty of room in the howdah to accommodate an Indian longbow with extra ammunition, so he's not restricted in his movements.
3. Give anti cavalry and anti camel bonus.
Historically, elephants were the bane of cavalry, because the elephants would spook the horses and camels. It took a great deal of courage and disciplined elite cavalry to charge elephants to kill them. Even if the cavalry got into melee with the elephants, the archers can easily bring down the cavalrymen from above.
4. Let them only take bonus damage from skirmishers, and have some melee armour.
Elephant archers usually had decently armoured animals as mounts. Plus the elephant's hide is quite thick, you can wound and infuriate elephants but you would need a lot of arrows to bring down an elephant. Javelins on the other hand penetrate quite well, so skirmishers can dispatch elephants easily.
Maybe make them a little cheaper too, 90 food is way too expensive in castle age
It seems silly to have them be so weak to skirms, seems like that should be there strength since cav can deal with them easily as well.
agree. Elite skirm + 13 vs Elephant archer is nonsense,
@@nguyenhuyduc9151 having the huge hp pool is meaningless when an ant stings you and it does as much damage as a shotgun blast. these overly exaggerated bonus damage really hurt what's cool about these units
skirms counter cav archers tho
In actual gameplay elephant archers still roll skirms if massed. If skirms didn't have the bonus there'd be nothing that could take down elephant archers with reasonable cost exchange.
I remember watching the movie ALEXANDER and there throwing javelins at elephants worked well.
Parthian tactics affecting elephants never ceases to be amusing.
why
@@dontspikemydrink9382 Parthians were Iranic nomads of Central Asia who used cav archers like the other Steppe peoples. The Parthian empire used to use cavalry either as cav arcehrs for hit and run tactics or heavy Cataphracts. No way you can use hit and run Parthain can archer tactics on elephants who are slow and clumsy.
They seriously need to add a new baracks unit sometimes considering how many there are for the stables, archery range and even the siege workshop.
But what type of a unit would it be? Halbs counter cav, Champions counter trash. What would a n ew unit do? Countering archers would destroy game balance, perhaps a cheap yet fast raiding unit could be viable? But then again we have cavs and particularly Hussars for that. Siege destroy buildings and champions also have damage. There are no infantry units to be added ;(
I'm pretty sure they scraped that idea and kept it only to the Meszo Ciz + UU which is fine there is alot of Infantry in the game they're just at the castle
@@johnxina5126 Maybe there's a niche for a counter-infantry infantry? Like the Hypaspist and the Axeman in Age of Mythology. But then again there's plenty of options for countering pikes and champs already... In the medieval era, that'd be a sword-and-buckler/rodelero to stick to the theme (IRL they were intended to sneak past pikes and close the distance on halberdiers and other two handed weapon users)
@@johnxina5126 Well they have roles for plenty of ranged, cavalry and siege units. And they could opt for cultural replacements too, like the new siege elephant has the same role as the ram and here the elephant archer has the similar role of the horse archer.
For a new role, some cheap quickly trained infantry that's weak but great for town defence could be useful. Not something to really assault an enemy town with, but good at fending off raids. They could have increased speed around the player's own buildings but be slow outside of that and have terrible line of sight, to discourage them being used for raiding.
Some sort of spearman line with a shield could also be a cultural alternative for some civs, could be a middle eastern/african looking spearman that has a little more defence against archers but could have a bit lower attack.
A foot knight could also be a good tougher and more expensive late game infantry unit exclusive to mainly european civs, whoever had knights. could be armed with a shield and a mace.
An expensive pole axe unit could also be something, good against cavalry and infantry. Kind of a champion and halberdier in one, but could be more expensive, especially in gold cost.
Makes sense for skirmishers to be good vs elephants as javelins were potent against them.
But halb bonus is absurd.
Maybe against war elephants. But battle and Archer elephants thats pretty brutal.
Yea, it's not like battle/archer ele could easily outrun halbs like normal cav could, nor can they tank the damage as competently as persian war ele.
+60 against a unit that cant outrun u well enough, cant tank too well, and is expensive to mass for me is too hard of a counter.
Wow, i think the exact opposite haha
Halbs should counter them hard because closing the distance between the units is already a challenge. Elite skirms on the other hand can just spit +13 damage from afar.
I think damage from halbs should be halved like the 32 it normally does to cavalry and same for the skirm. That way the best counter depends on who's EA you're facing. If they don't have parthian tactics go halbs, if they don't go skirms, anyways you'll have to get a good mass of them before trying to stop them because trickling units won't do enough damage.
Dravidian Elephant Archers are like contemporary armour support vehicles.
You use a core of them to support your infantry tactics and they can really mow down other units trying to get close to them.
A group of Elephant Archers are like a tanky core that can be used like a bunch of mobile towers to help you lockdown sections of the battlefield.
It feels a bit silly that the elephant itself isn't really contributing to the attack with these units. It would be really cool to see a Battle Elephant that controls as a melee unit but also does passive ranged damage like a tower.
they have that in AoE4. Elephant archer really seems like it's not that useful. Hard to mass, yet doesn't really pull its weight in doing damage.
It's a good point you make, lbut again it is only a game, and so therefore balance has to be taken into account.
If balance were not taken into account, then we would have trebuchets in the Castle Age, Goths would not have hand cannons, Chinese would have gunpowder, and the Mayans would still have obsidian arrows.
Or maybe the EA should have a light trample damage effect, to help when melee units get in close, like Battle Eles
Yessss
would be cool if EA had passive trample damage
I just wish the elephant archer was like it’s actual historical counterpart, which was actually a powerful war elephant that carried 4 archers or musketeers, or a bombard cannon on its back. I guess that would have been the most OP. It’s an unfortunate ahistorical feature of game design, but I kind of get the reasons why. Historically though the Sassanid Persians were more famous for their heavy horse cavalry and archers.
Aoe 4 Elephant Archer is exactly that: melee attach with tons of HP with one archer on top that provides range damage.
cannon elephant is used in 17-18th if im not mistaken. AoE II takes places in 8th-15/16th.
@@dokhanh1044 Well yes, but the bombard cannon is in AoE2, so…
@@Thanatos833 And bombards existed historically in the medieval era. Doing a quick google search for cannons being mounted on elephants, it seems they were small cannons used in an anti-personnel role not a siege one. Also seems they existed after the medieval period. Generally speaking anything after the 16th century is not touched by AoE2. So no elephants with cannons.
@@QuintemTA imagine how cool would it be to put some organ gun on an elephant
screw medieval era, i want elephants with gatling guns on their backs
Recently I massed elephant archers vs. Vietnamese because I assumed the Vietnamese player would use the archer line. However, I got shredded by massed Imp skirms. The elephants just melted 😅.
I personally love playing with elephant units, having these massive titans charge forward into battles... however, they are overall usually underwhelming. In case of the indian regional elephant archers, they are a walking liability. Extremly costly at 90 food, 70 gold. They are extremely slow, and have many counters, like skirms, mass pikes, monks. While having decently high HP, they simply don't have enough fire power to justify they're cost. You literally can't chase down any unit, and when out numbered by elephant counters, your too slow to run away. Something has to be done to give the elephant archers a true purpose. Lets face it, too slow to raid, too easy to counter, and too expensive to mass. Pro's will never really use this unit in actual high level competitions. The fact that cheap non-gold units like skirms have so much bonus damage against them, will never allow them to be useful. And as far as what Spirit of the Law says, they are a cost effective counter to achers, well so are skirms too. But at least skirms don't cost gold. If they arn't buffed in upcoming patch, then they're basically un-usable. They either need, far less bonus damage from skirms, cheaper cost, even more HP, or some type of special ability like garrisoning archer ranged units for insane firepower, to be a type of rolling tower to make these expensive meat shields useful.
Sure skirm can counter them
But from the 3 ranged unit who gets countered easily on mass?
A few onager shot and you easily reduce the other army,
And it would be silly to use ele Archer as only that.
I think siege would work well as you can easily counter Trash with them, but yourself is resistent to that
A tanky and expensive unit that melts before trash... I don't think these guys will ever be popular.
If you have a way to block (Champions) the halbs or to kill them fast (Hand Canoneers, Onagers or Arbalesters), then you're good to go.
@@Hardcore_Remixer doesn't this nearly eliminates whole point of having tanky ranged units?
If you're ok with risk of losing your entire ranged part of your army to one onager shot, yes. That is the true value here imho.
Haven’t played this game in 10 years but can’t stop watching your videos
Elephant fact : the most effective defence against an elephant is singing "wololo" until it changes colour.
They need their own armor class. It would help them stand out in their role more. Being easily countered by much, much cheaper trash units significantly hinders their viability.
For their cost, they're too easily countered by trash. With CA you can at least run away from skirms and even outmicro pikes but with these you are basically helpless.
Yes, they need a cost reduction and take less bonus damage from pikes/skirms.
Hey SotL, love your videos - I'm especially looking forward to more of the 'Evolution' series. If you're looking for video ideas after that, though, I'd really appreciate a follow-up on that Krakenmeister civ builder one from a year ago. Specifically, he's added a lot of selectable unique units that use hero/cheat unit models, and there are 'Royal' upgrades to Battle Elephants and Steppe Lancers. I'd absolutely love a detailed look at these units' base stats, bonus damage, etc., as there doesn't seem to be a way to find that info in one place without making and modding in dozens of different civs that each have one of the units.
i like how you used the most dominant color from the civs emblem to represent them ingame, and also had the text color to match -great pedagogy! maybe youve been doing doing it like this before too but i just noticed :p gj keep it up
Not sure if you will see this, but thank you for add the caption to your video again, its really helpful to someone with listening problem like me
This is the best channel about Elephant Facts I've ever found. Keep up with the good work! Also, I must admit that you might have some future with this "age of empires" thing you play.
Yeah, what's the point on having your archer in one of the most intelligent and giant animals on earth to make him take care of both shooting and riding. The big advantage of the elephant is that you can get multiple people on top of them, so you could have an specialized rider and more soldiers, vs the horse that can only take one person
I would increase their range of attack to make them at least somewhat viable as a defensive unit behind walls. Like a mobile tower. It would also be cool to garrison archers in them to shot additional arrows.
Or they should induce trample damage to help mitigate the halb counter.
Ive been watching you for years, thank you for continuing to make AoE2 videos!
Philosophical question: Is the best version of a unit the one that's best against what it's supposed to counter or the one best against its own counters?
Gurjara camels: yes and yes
And that unit should also be cost effective.
Units that are good against their counters or hard to counter are considered the best. Consider the long-time favorite unique units: Mangudai, Cataphracts, Huskarls, Longbows. All of them are strong against the things that would counter the most similar generic unit.
Asking the real questions in life, I see.
Hmmm. I'd say that I'd rather have a unit that's at par against it's normal target as a generic unit while being more invincible against its own counter than a unit that leans into its strength and is better than generic against its normal target while just as vulnerable against its typical counter.
Having the same ceiling but a much higher floor just means you can do your work without the enemy being able to do a blessed thing about it. :D
At the same time though, being okay against enemies meant to counter you is worthless if you’re not good against your own counters/in general
Always love it when you do detailed breakdowns like this! Would love to see something like this with camels too; it's one thing to compare camels vs camels and camels vs knights; but how do the top camel civs' camels fare when fighting units that they aren't specialised against (such as longswordsmen or archers)
By the by, SOTL, Paiks affects 4 (sort of 5) units; you forgot to mention the Battle Elephant and Armored Elephant. I think that makes the tech a lot more worthwhile. Certainly not as good as Thumbring for archer units, but pretty great when considering that it helps, effectively, two archer units, two melee units, and one siege unit, given the Ratha's switch ability, and can seriously speed up razings enemy towns. All that taken into consideration, it seems fairly worth the price to me.
My first impression, looking at these elephant archers, is that we may see a new era for the Genoese Crossbowman. Where before I would struggle to find an effective use for them, using them as a hard hitting counter that can reach out and touch the elephant archers seems like it would be extremely cost effective.
In the past I viewed the Italians as the ultimate anti-cav archer civ, but aside from Mongol/Magyar players the Cav archer is a fairly rare unit to see. However, this new meta seems like it may shake some things up!
Great video as usual Spirit!
I don't expect any meta shifts because of the elephant archer. They're still bad.
@@QuintemTA Agreed, they seem to suffer from the same problem that regular cav archers do. I.E. very expensive for what will essentially be a rear line support unit
Hey spirit, what’s your thought on potentially giving Burmese Elephant Archers similar to how mongols got Steppe lancers?
imagine a op custom civ made around all of the elephant units (the battle elephant, siege elephant, war elephant, and elephant archer) with ALL the elephant relevant techs
I love accurate regional units+skins for civs, I demand more!
I would love a series about post imperial best army compositions for each civ :)
Thank you for always posting these entertaining and useful vids!
Haven't been playing for 5 months but still watching sotl , keep it going :)
I know it might be really hard to code, but elephant archers should be able to fire while moving, like in Age of Empires 4.
"elephant archers do well against foot archers"
Legolas would like a word.
I wish AOE could do the same as Rise of nations or LOTR BFME where the elephant unit has both melee and ranged attach possible i.e. a combination of the war elephant with multiple archers/ javelins on top as was in real life
The elephant fact made me chuckle, basically it said "Just blow up and shoot the damn thing down it's more effective than little pointy sticks."
I must see all of these techs combined to make the strongest elephant civilization ever. I need it.
I think this matches up with your recent video on the Indian Civs, adding weight to the fact how the Bengalis get a large power spike as the game progresses, and do not so well early-game. Like how their EA is the best in Imperial Age, while they were essentially the worst in Castle Age.
I see a lot of elephant archers in low elo black forest team games. Advancing with them when you're also already starting to treb castles puts a lot of pressure on the opponents defending since they're very strong en masse and hard enough to kill that a lot of them may still be up when their castle is down. Also works as a back line for the elephant rams.
Kinda reminds me how teutons slowly advance with strong melee units but instead it's tanky ranged units.
I barely use elephant archers with Gurjaras, I'm more on camels and their excellent shrimvasa cavalry, as well as chakram throwers.
Typically if you have an expensive, tanky but slow-moving range unit, you would want them to have a lot of range to not being kited by other cheaper but faster units. Micro is a real issue in AOE game. I still find it weird that Elephant Archer was so weirdly designed that they can't be effectively used.
Dam this is tricky ... but Spirit of the law makes it feel simple lol. Guy is so good at explaining stuff i still watch his videos even when i do not play the game anymore XD
8:44 the middle green elephant just faded from existence and ended up a corpse :o
My takeaway here is that going elephant archers is a gamble that can pay off in the right circumstances, but needs protection from their counters to be effective more broadly. Because of their slow speed, pairing them with onagers seems like a sensible solution as the onagers can take out massed trash units while the elephant archers soak up the damage. Probably still need some melee units in reserve in case the trash units get too close.
Should make a video on how the Persians are doing with all these new elephants in town.
Dravidians seems like to best to me after watching this video.
Theses tests show that they are good while not even taking into account how useful the regeneration can be between fights.
60 bonus damage vs elephants seems too much, elephants already have some negative armor classes vs a variety of units and them such a massive bonus damage is devastating
It seems like ELE archers are just not very good... I guess things didn't change all that much for them.
They're gimmick units to get players excited for new civs and buy the expansion that is hard to balance and find use for.
It's like steppe lancer 2.0
Nice, didn't expect this but nice
Apparently the devs wanted to make people use this unit more, by making it regional and available in the archery range. However that won't happen until Elephant Archers are improved drastically. As of now they are next to useless in most situations. I feel that especially the damage skirmishers do to them is ridiculous, considering their price and the cheapness of skirms.
IMO, they should be removed from the archer / cav archer armor class and instead get an armor class of their own. They could also do with increased attack and firing rate.
Generally, ranged tanks are rarely all that useful unless they can either give some back or have some support ability that increases the priority of taking them down.
Me personally, I would buff their damage a wee bit, +2 vs spear line and +5 vs siege.
I wanted to mention that even foot archers, especially britons, aren't to bad when you micro and use the greater range and speed.
I assumed they will ended up like steppe lancer.
Rarely used after the nerf..
They were never really used to begin with. Slow average expensive units that take tons of damage from trash plus no conversion resistance plus no particular specialty with the only thing going for them that they resist archerfire some what
Have you covered the maths behind repairing Feitoria? I think it'd be a fun little topic
Actually, I personally believe the Dravidians are actually best in battles of attrition. With the faster fire rate that makes more of a different in long fights combined with medical corps for better long term value ( the larger health pool means the regen will have more time to work)
Especially when you think that after. Fight, most of the time your elephants will come out alive. Gives you a way to recover without being forced to make monks or return to a castle
Elephant archers I think are under appreciated for the simple fact they have all the advantages of an archer without the weakness of being very squishy.
SOTL vids probably help with balance discussions
It's kind of ironic that what used to be the Indian civ, the only civ with elephant archers, is now the only civ in the region without it, but I guess that's also a little more historically accurate given how the jungles where elephant thrive are located more in the southern and eastern parts of India, rather than the northwestern region
Have you heard of the Nintendo DS version of Age of Kings? It might be a fun little side video to add to the AoE 2 history books.
We hope to see AoE2 Summer Games 2022 edition
So they are an extremely expensive and slow skirmisher that is weak to monks and dies hard to skirmishers…
Bit of an off request but, since you're doing a look at how the original civs evolved through the years, could you please do a video on the knight? Its ubiquity in competitive play, from Frank dominance to Hun dominance and beyond, seems like something that should be examined. I mean, if the numbers are actually examined, I'm curious to see if knights have been overpowered for literal decades and people just accepted it as the norm.
We're finally addressing the elephant in the room.
Elephant archers should have both melee and ranged attack, and should be able to use both attacks simultaneously to stand ground against halbs and cavalry
This makes sense
Overall, the elephant archer is a mostly useless unit. Monks ruin it. Cavalry ruin it. Halbs ruin it. Skirmishers ruin it. And it ruins only archers, but costs more, isn't as mobile and can't force fights. An absolutely terrible unit, and always has been.
Yeah, I laughed at the elephants vs crossbows match, better make more skirmishers rather than send elephants
Ele archers are faster than regular archers with husbandry. They are however, more difficult to mass. They basically fulfill the same role as archers now.
@@Tpoleful they don’t, they are more expensive and easier to counter, not worth it in any army
They're not the greatest unit in the game but they're far from useless, I (a 1400) managed to hold a pretty brutal assault with ele archers and if you're wondering why I didn't go skirms, they can't force fights to save their lives
why would they even add a super case specific and expensive unit which is nearly countered by everything in the first place?
Hey SoTL. Can you get out that Hindustanis civ review a bit early. Really liking that overhauled civ and wanna hear your thoughts on that. Cheers.
A lot of criticism in the comments seem like people have not actually seen them used in play. None of the complaints about them being weak make any sense if you have seen pros employ them. They are very difficult to counter.
9:31 Loved that sarcasm, but for real this unit is even worse then what it was when Indians had them, they should improve Tech tree that's around them, reduce their cost more and reduce their train time otherwise they are just cool looking unit with no use
Edit: I mentioned they have no use but only in multiplayer, in campaign they are fun 😂😂
Giving Elephant archers trample damage would be interesting i think. They would still have a ranged attack but at the same time do aoe near themselves.
I wish this was implemented. Would make a lot of sense too. The whole point of an elephant archer is that it was a tank, the archers were just the cherry on top.
what happened to "answering comments" series?
everyone complaining that elephants are mostly useless units, but actually thats kindof historically acurate :D
I mean, all things considered, I think the ones with partían tactics are the best. I mean they are countered by spearman but the extra damage means that a critical más will clean them before they reach them. The extra pierce armor makes them better on their role too which is great, overall my only issue with them is that I can't really think of a good unit composition with them. They are a damage sponge but you don't want them fighting against knights or spearman, so you need units to defeat that. I can imagine using them with artillery and spearman to counter knights and serve as shields against other spearman but it might be too heavy of a composition.
Yeah, I feel like the lack of good light cav really hurts these civs, they could use them to counter siege and skirms, and to have some raid power. Adding battle elephants to the EA composition just feels wierd, because you're still countered by spears and skirms can just run away from BE and into your EA with no problem, so the issue remains.
@@TBPetitP yeah for me it feels like the concept of the elephant archer is kind of flawed. If it could fire and move then there would be some potential but otherwise I feel like they lack purpose.
We need Bombard elephant trebuchets (non-elite cuz that would be OP)
Counter units are expensive to upgrade, elite scrimmisher and Pikeman are pretty costly in castle age That's the only good time I've found to use them get them in early castleage and they can actually dominate
Interested to see who has the best Battle Elephants now.
They should have 0 cav archer armour, maybe regain that bonus damage against buildings and also be given to the persians and south east asian civs (PD: I'm pretty sure they take the same spot as cav archers out of convenience and giving them to this civs wouldn't be much trouble).
Hey SOTL, does the Gurjaras' 50% bonus damage affect the additional damage from elevation, or just the actual "bonus damage" like spears-vs-cavalry?
Babe wake up ,,, new spirit of the law just dropped
2:48 Important to note that Paiks affects all elephant units, not just the archer, so it improves Battle and Siege Elephants as well.
It is mentioned in red.
Where did that one monk go when they were converting elephants? He converted that Dravidian elephant and he just walked off :D
I think you undersold the Dravidian's regeneration ability a little. It doesn't do much in most head-to-head matchups, but in a game it can be really handy for your army to regain some of its HP between one fight and the next, especially for weaker players.
Even just mentioning it is overselling it, because the tech is simply a waste if resources. You will hardly
ever recover its cost by that slow rate of healing, its better to just make 5 more ele archers. Or even better, just make meta units 🤣
You know, one thing I really wish the devs would do is lower the Halberdier's bonus damage to most Elephant units to something like +40, not +60. However, that +60 could still apply against Persian War Elephants, as that's the unit the bonus was originally intended for. +60 against much lower HP Battle Elephants, Elephant Archers, and Ballista Elephants, feels too strong for a trash unit.
Even if their bonus damage against Battle Elephants and Elephant Archers was reduced to +40 instead of +60, Halbs would still be cost-effective against them.
Besides, Battle Elephants aren't used in 1v1's because in Castle Age, it's Monks that counter them, not Pikes.
*Sees the Elephant Fact.*
*Looks at the Flaming Camel.*
My God...!
skirmisher: looks like meat's back on the menu, guys!
I see SPOTL video, I click play!