Thank you for the feedback. I really appreciate it. Here is my newest video in this topic. I’d be interested in your feedback. th-cam.com/video/E-Z1Yle-VXA/w-d-xo.html
Tom I taught elementary school for over 30 years. Your ability to explain using basic models and picture was in Short A+ work I know of no one who has this detailed of information for free. Thanks Tom we are all the better bakers because of your help.
Oh wow, after watching a thousand videos without much improvement in my breads this one finally advances my understanding. Excellent use of metaphor combined with important data all clearly expressed.
Wow, just brilliant! Thank you so much for this video. I'm at one point of my learning curve that I felt I needed more technical information to diagnose what was happening and how to improve. And here it is.
This video is exactly what i have been looking for on TH-cam!! People always tell me what the ideal process is but i really wanted to read my half dozen failed loaves! Thank you so much and God bless you!
Thank you for the feedback. There is a longer version of this video, "The Mystery of Bulk Fermentation" which shows the baking process using these principles. Also my video, "Underproofed or Overproofed" compares proofing of four loaves with different bulk fermentation and final proofing times.
Clicked on this just because, not expecting to watch the whole thing. So glad I did, nailed some issues I keep seeing! Had some starter being prepped for a bake tomorrow, very excited now! Thanks!
You're welcome. I'm happy you found it helpful. You may also like my video "Underproofed or Overproofed" which gives a live example of modifying the bulk fermentation and final proofing times.
After many loaves of wondering what I am doing wrong... a friend sent me this video and it turns out I'm overhandling!! So rarely mentioned in sourdough guides!! Thanks so much for your awesome explanations, I'll be more gentle on the next loaf and see what happens :)
Thank you again for all the wonderful information and careful attention to detail. I watched all of your videos, took lots of notes and told my husband afterwards that I felt as if I had spent the day at Sourdough University! Much appreciated.
Great video! Very clarifying! I've been suffering from a variety of these issues! Specially illuminating for me was that at higher fermentation temperatures the lactobacillus grows a lot faster than the yeasts!
@@thesourdoughjourney I finished the whole 1.5 hours. I'm gonna watch my temps a lot more closely next time. I suspect that one learns what proper bulk fermentation "looks like" with time and experience and will be able to adjust the timing from there--as Chad says in his book.
I am new to sourdough baking and this video was super informative. Thank you so much for your clear and concise explanations. I am hoping my next loaf will be my first succes! 5th times the charm?
Baguettes usually follow a specific recipe that calls for added bakers yeast. I’d look for a specific baguette recipe. Pizza dough is the same bulk fermentation time as the bread dough.
Your videos are an absolute goldmine amongst the swamp of well-intentioned but vague or unnecessarily complicated sourdough information out there. Thank you Tom, I never expected to watch those experiment videos all the way through but I felt like I was there with you all the way to the moments when you cut the loaves to compare! Only wish you had other social media platforms so you can see what this beginner baker managed to achieve with her fourth loaf following your videos - that level of satisfaction is priceless. You mentioned Trevor Wilson’s book in another video. Reading his ‘disclaimer’ about it, it’s hard to tell whether someone like myself would benefit from 384 pages on crumb alone - do you plan on doing any sort of reviews on the book since you’re clearly a fan? Thanks again!
Thank you so much for the feedback. I am considering other social media platforms but am just getting started and want to focus on the video content for now. Trevor Wilson’s book is pretty dense. My recent video “The Impact of Preshaping on Open Crumb” has a good summary/discussion near the end (The Structure Chain Model) which boils down some of the key concepts. I probably will do a summary video at some point. I’m doing some additional experiments this week (no video) that may provide more answers. Thanks again for the feedback. I appreciate it.
If you only choose to have one social media platform the TH-cam format lends itself well to your content, so definitely don’t ditch it in favour of anything else! I’ll give the new video a watch.
Thank you so much for this, I've been searching for a video like tihs for ages! I'm from India where the temperatures range from 35-40 C. I've just started my sourdough journey and have made a few loaves that were super over-proofed because of the nasty temps here. Got a sticky dough ball back. I still need to find out a good bake schedule to combat this!But your video helps so much!
Thank you. We are just getting into summer here in Cleveland so I will be doing some higher temperature bakes this summer and will do a video in a few months on how to manage bulk fermentation at higher temperatures. Let me know what you learn with your experience!
@@thesourdoughjourney I just made an AP flour loaf yesterday (we don't get bread flour here). It had tunnel holes and holes near the crust. so thanks to you, I know for sure that it was underproofed! Luckily it didn't have a horrid dense bottom so it was yummy to eat. I changed my baking schedule and started in the evening (31 C) to combat the nasty high temps. I also did coil folds to bring the dough upto strength-about 4 in a 2 hour window(which I now realise should have been pushed by an hour atleast). My dough had about 7 percent protein only. I left it in my fridge for an overnight retard too. The strength of the gluten was there for sure, but the short bulk time was the reason the loaf failed. Your experiments and notes really really help me. Thanks again!
You mentioned the dough temp...is there an optimum dough temp for all sourdough and if so, what is it? I've made several loaves and have only had success with a couple. This video was extremely informative and I know now most of my issues are in how I handle the dough during bulk fermentation and shaping. Thank you!
The desired dough temperature really depends on the specifics of each recipe. Some flours ferment differently and the amount of starter can impact required time and temperature. I recommend reviewing some of the recipes on Maurizio Leo’s site, The Perfect Loaf. He specifies desired dough temperature in all of his recipes and you can learn a lot by comparing different recipes, times and temperatures. Thank you for the feedback!
@@thesourdoughjourney I was questioning the importance of bulk fermentation with a thought experiment: create a 24 hours-old preferment, add it to a dough that has autolysed for 2 hours, then kneaded till windowpane has been achieved and skip the bulk fermentation phase, proceeding to shaping and proofing in baskets. What do you think the end result will be for this theoretical scenario?
@@michaellupu2080 The vast majority of the flour would be unfermented. It does not ferment in autolyse without the preferment. So the total time the flour and preferment are in contact with each other seems too short, although you don't indicated the kneading time, I assume it is short. You can build gluten structure much more quickly than the flour can properly ferment.
FLAVOR! Hi Tom. I am a 75 yr old dud, who stated baking sourdough bread last year, as did many others. I enjoyed bread baking before that, but never sourdough. I am disappointed in the fact that my loaves are not really sour enough. My starter is dark rye fed. I generally bulk ferment until my dough rises to about 25-30%. The flavor, oven spring & crumb are great, but I would like more sourness in the flavor. Any tips? Your videos are really deep and informative. Thank you. Blessings.
Thank you. There is a recipe on the King Arthur website for extra tangy sourdough. It involves making 1/3 of the batch a day before and it produces a pretty sour loaf. Also in my video The Long Cold Proof, I cold retard loaves for up to 5 days. You’ll get a more sour loaf around 3 days.
I’m a big fan of your scientific focus. Thanks for sharing. In diagnosing over/underproofing I’m curious if you had an explanation for why the different types of caverns are forming in the slightly over and underproofed loaves?
Thank you. In underproofed loaves, the yeast typically has not fully used up all its energy so there is a “last gasp” of carbon dioxide burst as you start the baking process, causing the irregular “tunnels” in the underproofed loaves. With overproofing, you typically see the loaf lose its shape and the crumb starts to pull away from the crust because the gluten is weak. Please check out my other video “Underproofed or Overproofed: A Tale of Four Loaves” for a more detailed comparison and discussion of crumb analysis.
Is it possible to overmix the dough? I've heard that it's really hard to do that by a lot of different people. I usually mix mine for 5 minutes on medium and another 3 on low before bulk fermentation and then bulk ferment for 6 hours with 1 lamination and 3 stretch and folds. Thoughts??
I have heard people also say it is not possible to overmix the dough. But I believe it depends on the timing and technique. Aggressively mixing the dough early in the process seems to be OK, but heavy handling later in the process can break gluten strands and compress the dough. Also, I believe gentle hand mixing (e.g., Rubaud method), is OK, but machine mixing or something like “slap and fold” can be overdone, in my experience. Lastly, a combination of mixing and rest times (e.g., 3 min mix, 3 min rest) is much more effective than continuous mixing with no breaks. I plan to do a video on this topic in the future, I cover some of this in my “Art and Alchemy” series. Thanks!
This is more specific to sourdough. Some of the general principles apply to yeasted breads but the specifics discussed here are more sourdough related.
Hi. Thank you for your very thorough explanations! What is the advantage of dough handling on a silicone mat vs just doing it on on the counter top? I’m considering buying one... Greetings from Sweden.
Thank you. I use it to keep my flour under control. It catches the flour and keeps it from going all over the kitchen. It also is helpful to have a grippy surface for bowls when mixing. It has some impact on shaping also it I think that is a question of personal preference. Some people prefer a smoother surface dough shaping.
I am beginner and absolutely love all your content! I have question - i developed a started which took 10 days to get to full strength (1:1:1 doubles in 4 hrs). I use 1:1:1 levan which also seem to strong doubling in 4 - 5 hrs. However, my bulk fermentation takes forever (almost 8 +hrs) at 75F -78F to get to 30% rise. Could you please help? I really appreciate it!
It's hard to say for sure. Usually the slow rising is due to a lower dough temperature. What kind of flour are you using? How much starter are you using relative to the total flour weight?
Thank you. There is a longer version of this video coming with a demonstration bake that I will post tomorrow. Bulk fermentation builds the gluten, develops flavor and rises the dough. Final proof is doing a last rise of the dough and more flavor development after shaping the loaves. By shaping the loaves you deflate them a bit, so the final proof allows the yeast to "re-inflate" the dough a bit. If you do an overnight cold proof in the refrigerator, the primary purpose is to develop flavor, not to rise the dough any more. The cold temperature really slows down the yeast and lets the lactic acid bacteria work on continuing to develop the classic "sour" flavor if that is what you are looking for. \
This was really useful - thank you. Is one of the signs of an overproof dough that it becomes very sticky and hard to handle when pre-shaping and shaping?
I've watched artisanal bakeries knead their sourdough in commercial grade machine mixers before the bulk fermentation and stretch and fold process. the gluten strands aren't ripped during this? they seem to knead for quite a while
Yes. Thank you. You are correct, a mixer with the appropriate attachment running at the right speed can be used early in the process to mix the dough and build gluten. However, I’ve seen people use home mixers on very high speed really destroy their dough. And occasionally I see people overhandling handling the dough very late in the process. These are the more common scenarios I was referring to. I should have been more specific in my description.
If i decide to do the S and Fs will that shorten the bulk fermenation time? I've been troubleshooting gummy loaves. I'm thinking i could be over fermenting.and yes, it is an 8-10 hr at 21c fermentation time for that recipe
S&Fs accelerate gluten development, which is one of the goals of bulk fermentation. I’d suggest looking at a variety of recipes and assessing the recommended time, temp and % rise when using S&Fs.
Hi I love your videos and learnt a lot from them.. I have a question.. You said that to let it rise to about 30% how do you see that.. if for starter.. if doubled is that 50% or 100% increase? I am sorry.. I do not understand..could you explain to me?
Measuring the percent rise is always the change in volume, not height. But in a straight-walled vessel, volume and height are the same. Doubling would be 100% increase. In a straight-walled vessel, like a jar, it would double on height. For a 30% increase, similarly, in a straight walled vessel, it would be. 30% increase in height. In a vessel without straight walls (like a bowl) you need volume markers (Liters) marked on the bowl. I discuss this measurement technique in more detail in the first part of “The Mystery of Bulk Fermentation.”
In the longer version of this video “The Mystery of Bulk Fermentation,” I follow the Tartine recipe which calls for an overnight cold retard in the refrigerator. I typically go 8-15 hours with good results.
I was wondering why some sourdough recipes don’t ask for S and Fs. For example, in my recipe Everyday Sourdough from Emilie Raffa’s book it’s optional to do them. She mentions it in a separate section of her book but only as an extra step if you have time. To me that’s the most fun part of making bread , handling the dough so I love doing them.
The purpose of S&Fs is to build gluten, but you can also build gluten by doing an overnight, no-knead bulk fermentation, which is what I think that recipe calls for. The stretch and fold is basically a way to accelerate gluten development if you don’t want to wait for it to happen with no handling (which usually takes overnight).
@@thesourdoughjourney If i decide to do the S and Fs will that shorten the bulk fermenation time? I've been troubleshooting gummy loaves. I'm thinking i could be over fermenting. Thanks for your guidance and quick reply , btw.
Thanks for the video. I definitely overproofed my dough as it is a wet glob of dough. Is there any way to save it? I have added more flour and started the stretch and fold process again, but I have a feeling I will be making flat bread out of it in the end. Thanks again
Use a straight-sided vessel, or something with milliliter markers on it. If your vessel has perfectly straight sides the change in height is the change in volume. You can ask out tape on the side of any bowl and add water in 100ml increments and mark the water height in the bowl on the tape. This is a pretty reliable method. Most of the rise happens in the last hour of bulk fermentation and while the dough may be domed up, it will flatten out against the side of the bowl and can be measured.
Thanks for posting this valuable information. I recognize a lot in the examples. It is now finally clear to me what caused my dough to act the way it did.
I tried the parchment paper and it always stick to the bread. It's very frustrating. 😭 I tried different types with no difference. I used a lot of rice flour only to make it not sticky on most sides. I don't know what is the problem.
Usually if it is sticking it is an inferior brand. Especially with the bottom also dusted with rice flour. You could also try using corn meal on the bottom of the loaf. Not sure what else to recommend.
Good question. pH is an important factor but it is difficult for home bakers to measure. I’ve tried inexpensive pH meters for measure the pH of dough and starter and they are unreliable. Also, the only true measure of acidity of the dough is Total Titratable Acid which cannot be measured easily in a kitchen. I know other bakers who bought and use pH meters and they eventually abandon using them. I’ve also reviewed some studies of pH levels in sourdough, and the measurements need to be very accurate to be meaningful. That all being said, I am planning to buy one and use it in future experiments and videos but the least expensive models which are reliable for sourdough pH measurement are $250-300.
Also, check out this video where I’ve developed a 9-criteria test for determining when Bulk Fermentation is done. th-cam.com/video/E-Z1Yle-VXA/w-d-xo.html
@@thesourdoughjourney This video is extremely great and helpful. After watching I've played around with how I approach dough and this video has helped me recognize what to do or not do and what to look for, and my bread has improved considerably. I can't thank you enough!
![ไลฟ์สุ่ม iPhone 295 บาท... โกงมั้ย?[ โกงมั้ยครับ ep.97 ] | DOM](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/gdstHEE4UUE/mqdefault.jpg)
I personally love when an explanation goes over all the details, even some smaller details that most people would leave out. Very nice 👍
Thank you. Also check out my newer series “When is Bulk Fermentation Done.”
I am a professional chef, Baker. I used to run a popular sour dough bakery. This is a really good class. I'll definitely recommend it.
Thank you for the feedback. I really appreciate it. Here is my newest video in this topic. I’d be interested in your feedback. th-cam.com/video/E-Z1Yle-VXA/w-d-xo.html
Tom I taught elementary school for over 30 years. Your ability to explain using basic models and picture was in Short A+ work I know of no one who has this detailed of information for free. Thanks Tom we are all the better bakers because of your help.
Thank you so much for the feedback. I really appreciate it.
Oh wow, after watching a thousand videos without much improvement in my breads this one finally advances my understanding. Excellent use of metaphor combined with important data all clearly expressed.
Thank you. Check out some of my newer videos on this topic…
th-cam.com/video/E-Z1Yle-VXA/w-d-xo.html
Wow, just brilliant! Thank you so much for this video. I'm at one point of my learning curve that I felt I needed more technical information to diagnose what was happening and how to improve. And here it is.
Thank you for the feedback. I just published a new video on this topic that you may find helpful also. th-cam.com/video/E-Z1Yle-VXA/w-d-xo.html
One of the best explanations I have seen so far...thanks...
Thank you!
Super tutorial! Something tells me you are a teacher, either for real, or you are just a natural. Thank you very much!
Thank you. Not a teacher, but I love teaching.
This video is exactly what i have been looking for on TH-cam!! People always tell me what the ideal process is but i really wanted to read my half dozen failed loaves! Thank you so much and God bless you!
Thank you for the feedback. There is a longer version of this video, "The Mystery of Bulk Fermentation" which shows the baking process using these principles. Also my video, "Underproofed or Overproofed" compares proofing of four loaves with different bulk fermentation and final proofing times.
A very cogent explanation with great examples of over and underproofing
Thank you.
Your explanations are clear and very thorough. Thank you so much for making these videos. I can’t wait to watch the next one tomorrow.
Thank you!
Clicked on this just because, not expecting to watch the whole thing. So glad I did, nailed some issues I keep seeing! Had some starter being prepped for a bake tomorrow, very excited now! Thanks!
Thank you for the feedback! Good luck!
i been searching for this explanation for 3 weeks, watching every youtube video about sourdouggh bread! thanks man!
You're welcome. I'm happy you found it helpful. You may also like my video "Underproofed or Overproofed" which gives a live example of modifying the bulk fermentation and final proofing times.
After many loaves of wondering what I am doing wrong... a friend sent me this video and it turns out I'm overhandling!! So rarely mentioned in sourdough guides!! Thanks so much for your awesome explanations, I'll be more gentle on the next loaf and see what happens :)
Thank you for the feedback.
Thank you again for all the wonderful information and careful attention to detail. I watched all of your videos, took lots of notes and told my husband afterwards that I felt as if I had spent the day at Sourdough University! Much appreciated.
Thank you so much for the feedback!
It is the best video that I found on TH-cam. Thank you!
Thank you. Also check out my new series “When is Bulk Fermentation Done?” where I introduce some new tools/techniques for sourdough bakers.
Excellent information yet again!! Love the visuals as I am a visual learner! Thank you for your time and efforts.
Jeanna
Thanks. One of my earliest videos!
Great video! Very clarifying! I've been suffering from a variety of these issues! Specially illuminating for me was that at higher fermentation temperatures the lactobacillus grows a lot faster than the yeasts!
Thank you.
SIMPLY SUPERB 🧘♀️Nirvana of depth and clearness.
Thank you.
Very well explained and great analogy
Thank you.
Just what I needed to fix the problem. Thank you.
Thank you.
That's pure gold my man, good job!
Thank you!
Thanks for this great video. You should also explain in Celsius degrees, or add a written note.... don't forget that all the world is watching you.
Thanks I did all of my subsequent videos in both Fahrenheit and Celsius. I had 30 subscribers when I made this video! 😊
I am going to watch all your videos your content is so informative 👍🏻
Thank you.
Such a helpful explanation! The visual helps!!
Thank you!
Very systematic, helpful and examplified, exactly what I need!!! Thanks!!!!!!!!!
Glad it was helpful!
Same as below for months ive been searching for this info best video on the net for sure
Ty Dude
Thank you!
Brilliant explanation!
Thank you!
some nice tips on the process, I especially liked the over handling part.
Thank you.
Yeah that was really good info. Definitely going to help me on my next bake!
Thanks. You might also want to check out some of the videos in my series “When is Bulk Fermentation Done?” Especially Episode 3.
@@thesourdoughjourney I finished the whole 1.5 hours. I'm gonna watch my temps a lot more closely next time. I suspect that one learns what proper bulk fermentation "looks like" with time and experience and will be able to adjust the timing from there--as Chad says in his book.
I am new to sourdough baking and this video was super informative. Thank you so much for your clear and concise explanations. I am hoping my next loaf will be my first succes! 5th times the charm?
Thank you! and good luck baking!
My brain understands and accept the explanation very well 😅 there’s so many why questions before this video
Thanks.
Great video with nice explanations and photos
Thank you!
A very good video that best explains how it works! Thank you.
Thank you!
As always, great information, Tom. Very helpful. Thank you.
Thank you!
Very informative and extremely useful information . Thank you. Well done.
Thank you for the feedback. You may also like my new video "When is Bulk Fermentation Done?" th-cam.com/video/E-Z1Yle-VXA/w-d-xo.html
Thank you. Btw, do you know if the 4 hours bulk process applies to baguettes, pizza dough etc as well ?
Baguettes usually follow a specific recipe that calls for added bakers yeast. I’d look for a specific baguette recipe. Pizza dough is the same bulk fermentation time as the bread dough.
Your videos are an absolute goldmine amongst the swamp of well-intentioned but vague or unnecessarily complicated sourdough information out there. Thank you Tom, I never expected to watch those experiment videos all the way through but I felt like I was there with you all the way to the moments when you cut the loaves to compare!
Only wish you had other social media platforms so you can see what this beginner baker managed to achieve with her fourth loaf following your videos - that level of satisfaction is priceless.
You mentioned Trevor Wilson’s book in another video. Reading his ‘disclaimer’ about it, it’s hard to tell whether someone like myself would benefit from 384 pages on crumb alone - do you plan on doing any sort of reviews on the book since you’re clearly a fan? Thanks again!
Thank you so much for the feedback. I am considering other social media platforms but am just getting started and want to focus on the video content for now. Trevor Wilson’s book is pretty dense. My recent video “The Impact of Preshaping on Open Crumb” has a good summary/discussion near the end (The Structure Chain Model) which boils down some of the key concepts. I probably will do a summary video at some point. I’m doing some additional experiments this week (no video) that may provide more answers. Thanks again for the feedback. I appreciate it.
If you only choose to have one social media platform the TH-cam format lends itself well to your content, so definitely don’t ditch it in favour of anything else!
I’ll give the new video a watch.
Lots of excellent information. Thanks!!
Thank you!
Thank you so much for this, I've been searching for a video like tihs for ages! I'm from India where the temperatures range from 35-40 C. I've just started my sourdough journey and have made a few loaves that were super over-proofed because of the nasty temps here. Got a sticky dough ball back. I still need to find out a good bake schedule to combat this!But your video helps so much!
Thank you. We are just getting into summer here in Cleveland so I will be doing some higher temperature bakes this summer and will do a video in a few months on how to manage bulk fermentation at higher temperatures. Let me know what you learn with your experience!
@@thesourdoughjourney I just made an AP flour loaf yesterday (we don't get bread flour here). It had tunnel holes and holes near the crust. so thanks to you, I know for sure that it was underproofed! Luckily it didn't have a horrid dense bottom so it was yummy to eat. I changed my baking schedule and started in the evening (31 C) to combat the nasty high temps. I also did coil folds to bring the dough upto strength-about 4 in a 2 hour window(which I now realise should have been pushed by an hour atleast). My dough had about 7 percent protein only. I left it in my fridge for an overnight retard too. The strength of the gluten was there for sure, but the short bulk time was the reason the loaf failed. Your experiments and notes really really help me. Thanks again!
I can't wait to see your learnings for the high temperature bakes!
@@thesourdoughjourney can't wait for the video! I have the same problem here in Bangkok. Thanks in advance!
Thank you for this!
Thank you.
Wow! Thank you so much for all this information! Cheers!
Thank you.
So helpful. Thank you
Thanks. Also check out th-cam.com/video/E-Z1Yle-VXA/w-d-xo.html
Really well done and very helpful. Thank you!
Thank you!
LOVE you man keep doing 💗
Thanks!
You mentioned the dough temp...is there an optimum dough temp for all sourdough and if so, what is it? I've made several loaves and have only had success with a couple. This video was extremely informative and I know now most of my issues are in how I handle the dough during bulk fermentation and shaping. Thank you!
The desired dough temperature really depends on the specifics of each recipe. Some flours ferment differently and the amount of starter can impact required time and temperature. I recommend reviewing some of the recipes on Maurizio Leo’s site, The Perfect Loaf. He specifies desired dough temperature in all of his recipes and you can learn a lot by comparing different recipes, times and temperatures. Thank you for the feedback!
Fantastic! Thank you for your thoroughness on the subject.
Thank you!
@@thesourdoughjourney I was questioning the importance of bulk fermentation with a thought experiment: create a 24 hours-old preferment, add it to a dough that has autolysed for 2 hours, then kneaded till windowpane has been achieved and skip the bulk fermentation phase, proceeding to shaping and proofing in baskets.
What do you think the end result will be for this theoretical scenario?
@@michaellupu2080 The vast majority of the flour would be unfermented. It does not ferment in autolyse without the preferment. So the total time the flour and preferment are in contact with each other seems too short, although you don't indicated the kneading time, I assume it is short. You can build gluten structure much more quickly than the flour can properly ferment.
The first 2 mins so basic amazing understanding for me.
Thank you for the feedback.
Excellent!! Thank you.
Thank you.
FLAVOR! Hi Tom. I am a 75 yr old dud, who stated baking sourdough bread last year, as did many others. I enjoyed bread baking before that, but never sourdough. I am disappointed in the fact that my loaves are not really sour enough. My starter is dark rye fed. I generally
bulk ferment until my dough rises to about 25-30%. The flavor, oven spring & crumb are great, but I would like more sourness in the flavor. Any tips? Your videos are really deep and informative. Thank you. Blessings.
Thank you. There is a recipe on the King Arthur website for extra tangy sourdough. It involves making 1/3 of the batch a day before and it produces a pretty sour loaf. Also in my video The Long Cold Proof, I cold retard loaves for up to 5 days. You’ll get a more sour loaf around 3 days.
I’m a big fan of your scientific focus. Thanks for sharing. In diagnosing over/underproofing I’m curious if you had an explanation for why the different types of caverns are forming in the slightly over and underproofed loaves?
Thank you. In underproofed loaves, the yeast typically has not fully used up all its energy so there is a “last gasp” of carbon dioxide burst as you start the baking process, causing the irregular “tunnels” in the underproofed loaves. With overproofing, you typically see the loaf lose its shape and the crumb starts to pull away from the crust because the gluten is weak. Please check out my other video “Underproofed or Overproofed: A Tale of Four Loaves” for a more detailed comparison and discussion of crumb analysis.
The Sourdough Journey Thanks, that makes a lot of sense.
Is it possible to overmix the dough? I've heard that it's really hard to do that by a lot of different people. I usually mix mine for 5 minutes on medium and another 3 on low before bulk fermentation and then bulk ferment for 6 hours with 1 lamination and 3 stretch and folds. Thoughts??
I have heard people also say it is not possible to overmix the dough. But I believe it depends on the timing and technique. Aggressively mixing the dough early in the process seems to be OK, but heavy handling later in the process can break gluten strands and compress the dough. Also, I believe gentle hand mixing (e.g., Rubaud method), is OK, but machine mixing or something like “slap and fold” can be overdone, in my experience. Lastly, a combination of mixing and rest times (e.g., 3 min mix, 3 min rest) is much more effective than continuous mixing with no breaks. I plan to do a video on this topic in the future, I cover some of this in my “Art and Alchemy” series. Thanks!
Thank you for the information!
Thank you!
does this apply for all doughs with yeast or only with sourdough?
This is more specific to sourdough. Some of the general principles apply to yeasted breads but the specifics discussed here are more sourdough related.
Hi. Thank you for your very thorough explanations!
What is the advantage of dough handling on a silicone mat vs just doing it on on the counter top? I’m considering buying one...
Greetings from Sweden.
Thank you. I use it to keep my flour under control. It catches the flour and keeps it from going all over the kitchen. It also is helpful to have a grippy surface for bowls when mixing. It has some impact on shaping also it I think that is a question of personal preference. Some people prefer a smoother surface dough shaping.
I am beginner and absolutely love all your content! I have question - i developed a started which took 10 days to get to full strength (1:1:1 doubles in 4 hrs). I use 1:1:1 levan which also seem to strong doubling in 4 - 5 hrs. However, my bulk fermentation takes forever (almost 8 +hrs) at 75F -78F to get to 30% rise. Could you please help? I really appreciate it!
It's hard to say for sure. Usually the slow rising is due to a lower dough temperature. What kind of flour are you using? How much starter are you using relative to the total flour weight?
I enjoy your video, thanks for posting it. May I know the different function of bulk fermentation and final proof ?
Thank you. There is a longer version of this video coming with a demonstration bake that I will post tomorrow. Bulk fermentation builds the gluten, develops flavor and rises the dough. Final proof is doing a last rise of the dough and more flavor development after shaping the loaves. By shaping the loaves you deflate them a bit, so the final proof allows the yeast to "re-inflate" the dough a bit. If you do an overnight cold proof in the refrigerator, the primary purpose is to develop flavor, not to rise the dough any more. The cold temperature really slows down the yeast and lets the lactic acid bacteria work on continuing to develop the classic "sour" flavor if that is what you are looking for.
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THIS !!!! Thank YOU!
Thank you for the feedback.
This was really useful - thank you. Is one of the signs of an overproof dough that it becomes very sticky and hard to handle when pre-shaping and shaping?
Yes, overproofed dough can be very sticky and hard to handle.
I've watched artisanal bakeries knead their sourdough in commercial grade machine mixers before the bulk fermentation and stretch and fold process. the gluten strands aren't ripped during this? they seem to knead for quite a while
Yes. Thank you. You are correct, a mixer with the appropriate attachment running at the right speed can be used early in the process to mix the dough and build gluten. However, I’ve seen people use home mixers on very high speed really destroy their dough. And occasionally I see people overhandling handling the dough very late in the process. These are the more common scenarios I was referring to. I should have been more specific in my description.
@@thesourdoughjourney thanks for clearing that up!
If i decide to do the S and Fs will that shorten the bulk fermenation time? I've been troubleshooting gummy loaves. I'm thinking i could be over fermenting.and yes, it is an 8-10 hr at 21c fermentation time for that recipe
S&Fs accelerate gluten development, which is one of the goals of bulk fermentation. I’d suggest looking at a variety of recipes and assessing the recommended time, temp and % rise when using S&Fs.
Hi I love your videos and learnt a lot from them.. I have a question.. You said that to let it rise to about 30% how do you see that.. if for starter.. if doubled is that 50% or 100% increase? I am sorry.. I do not understand..could you explain to me?
Measuring the percent rise is always the change in volume, not height. But in a straight-walled vessel, volume and height are the same. Doubling would be 100% increase. In a straight-walled vessel, like a jar, it would double on height. For a 30% increase, similarly, in a straight walled vessel, it would be. 30% increase in height. In a vessel without straight walls (like a bowl) you need volume markers (Liters) marked on the bowl. I discuss this measurement technique in more detail in the first part of “The Mystery of Bulk Fermentation.”
@@thesourdoughjourney thks a lot
And how long could a cold fermentation take if you did a 4 hours bulk fermentation and folds?
In the longer version of this video “The Mystery of Bulk Fermentation,” I follow the Tartine recipe which calls for an overnight cold retard in the refrigerator. I typically go 8-15 hours with good results.
@@thesourdoughjourney Thank you!
I was wondering why some sourdough recipes don’t ask for S and Fs. For example, in my recipe Everyday Sourdough from Emilie Raffa’s book it’s optional to do them. She mentions it in a separate section of her book but only as an extra step if you have time. To me that’s the most fun part of making bread , handling the dough so I love doing them.
The purpose of S&Fs is to build gluten, but you can also build gluten by doing an overnight, no-knead bulk fermentation, which is what I think that recipe calls for. The stretch and fold is basically a way to accelerate gluten development if you don’t want to wait for it to happen with no handling (which usually takes overnight).
@@thesourdoughjourney If i decide to do the S and Fs will that shorten the bulk fermenation time? I've been troubleshooting gummy loaves. I'm thinking i could be over fermenting. Thanks for your guidance and quick reply , btw.
and yes, it is an 8-10 hr at 21c fermentation time for that recipe
Thanks for the video. I definitely overproofed my dough as it is a wet glob of dough. Is there any way to save it? I have added more flour and started the stretch and fold process again, but I have a feeling I will be making flat bread out of it in the end. Thanks again
Add some flour, try to shape it. Put it in a loaf pan and bake it up. Or make focaccia.
How do you exactly measure a 30% rise of the dough? The dough is a blob and I don't have a graduated beaker to ferment to it in.
Use a straight-sided vessel, or something with milliliter markers on it. If your vessel has perfectly straight sides the change in height is the change in volume. You can ask out tape on the side of any bowl and add water in 100ml increments and mark the water height in the bowl on the tape. This is a pretty reliable method.
Most of the rise happens in the last hour of bulk fermentation and while the dough may be domed up, it will flatten out against the side of the bowl and can be measured.
Thanks for posting this valuable information. I recognize a lot in the examples. It is now finally clear to me what caused my dough to act the way it did.
Thank you.
I tried the parchment paper and it always stick to the bread. It's very frustrating. 😭
I tried different types with no difference.
I used a lot of rice flour only to make it not sticky on most sides. I don't know what is the problem.
Usually if it is sticking it is an inferior brand. Especially with the bottom also dusted with rice flour. You could also try using corn meal on the bottom of the loaf. Not sure what else to recommend.
@@thesourdoughjourney I'll try that. Thanks.
Thanks Dad!
👍
shouldn't be the pH the most important data in bulk fermentation?
Good question. pH is an important factor but it is difficult for home bakers to measure. I’ve tried inexpensive pH meters for measure the pH of dough and starter and they are unreliable. Also, the only true measure of acidity of the dough is Total Titratable Acid which cannot be measured easily in a kitchen. I know other bakers who bought and use pH meters and they eventually abandon using them. I’ve also reviewed some studies of pH levels in sourdough, and the measurements need to be very accurate to be meaningful.
That all being said, I am planning to buy one and use it in future experiments and videos but the least expensive models which are reliable for sourdough pH measurement are $250-300.
Also, check out this video where I’ve developed a 9-criteria test for determining when Bulk Fermentation is done. th-cam.com/video/E-Z1Yle-VXA/w-d-xo.html
Visual aids. I love you
Thank you.
“Hmmm, I seem to be doing things right, so where am I failing?”...16:05 ... “... ... oooooooh”
😆 I’m happy you found it helpful
@@thesourdoughjourney This video is extremely great and helpful. After watching I've played around with how I approach dough and this video has helped me recognize what to do or not do and what to look for, and my bread has improved considerably. I can't thank you enough!
AAA+++Bedford, Texas
Thank you! You may also like my new series “When is Bulk Fermentation Done?”
I did all these mistakes 😂 now I know what happened
Thank you!
Dave Grohl!
🤘