Great video. I had my LC30 for several months now and have lots of fun and very happy with it. I am switching between tube amp and a solid state amp with external tube buffer (and without). All your comments are spot on especially trying to place two different speakers on the same sweet spot. Good tip on using the meter to set the sound level on the two amps for A/B comparisons..
I have the Douk Audio equivalent- similar meters, and the same 2 amp 2 speaker switching. I agree that speaker comparisons are generally easy so this device is less important for those, but I have found amp comparisons fascinating. Currently I have one 'warm' amp and one 'detailed' amp in the system and the differences are really obvious. And which I prefer depends upon the music and the source, so the ability to switch is really useful. Next is to compare the warm amp against another that I expect to sound similar- which is best? And the same for the detailed one, til I have the best warm and the best detailed amp in place. Win win. And its fun playing with it of course.
The comparison video might be titled 'Yes - Amps do sound different" or "No - amps don't sound different". At this point, I don't know which it will be (and of course the result will be dependent on my hearing).
This is a useful toy, at least as a switch, and it even glows in the dark. While there is some correlation between sound dynamics and meter movements, I wish it was more sensitive (I own a similar device, another brand).
I'm already hotly anticipating the "irritating Unboxing Music Experience" album while sitting in my Lidl replica Eames armchair (with footstool). Thanks again for an excellent review!
It really wasn't until the mid 1970's that VU meters became available on amps-n-receivers. Sure, they were on tape decks early on but not receivers. Later years had florescent bar-graph type meters and VU's faded away. Still though, the ol' VU's are fun to watch and can be helpful. If ya like the VU type, ya probably dig strobe lights, lava lamps and black lights too.
It needs a pair of fast acting LED ( a whole bunch of them. perhaps withsome some knobs to give them various multicolor ranges) peak meters under the VU's with a short hold on the highest peaks. This of course should have another knob to turn them off. Further thinking about it maybe the Vu meters could use multiple ranges too that could be accomplished by changing the screen behind them . Then it would look impressive with low powered amplifiers too or when you are at low levels as I'm usually listening at. Maybe a way to read the combined power level of all three of my amplifiers would be a nice option too.😊. Have a great day ❤
Your replica Eames lounge chair!! Haha, so very audiophile! (Bet you're champing at the bit in anticipation of Fosi's soon to be released V3 based XLR monoblocs)
I have a stereo pair of Dorrough 40-A2 loudness meters. Got them for not too much money and love the look. They serve no purpose in my setup but just look pretty 😅
So do I....it's all connected into a single system....ironically it sounds nice at low volume. My small sub can't keep up at high volume...think I need a couple more subs.
Might give it a try as a switch between my Dynaudios and my AKG K 1000 headphones. The headphones need a full blown amp to drive them and it is a PIA to unplug the speakers and plug in the headphones instead.
I am so glad I am not an "Audiophile" who spends all his time listening to his system. I am an Audio enthusiast who spends all his time listening to his music. And yes some of it is my old vinyl and rightly so - it is what I want to listen to and will not be influenced by anyone - especially those people who do not know / understand me and my preferences. My system is all 2nd hand and cost me under £2,000 - it is all good kit as it does what I want, therefore I do not need to change it or upgrade it or even update it with new kit. I am content which is a wonderful state to achieve but Audiophiles I am guessing could never be content but always on a quest. To my mind therefore Audiophiles are always disappointed with what they have no matter how wonderful their kit is or how much they have spent. how sad for them.
Is it always safe to drive an audio power amplifier (including class D) into an open circuit while it is not the active DUT in an A/B comparison? I'm pretty sure the unused amplifier can't be terminated in anything close to its usual low impedance load, so I'd be curious whether this is handled in some way or simply left to chance.
There's a 390 ohm dummy load apparently. I can see that this is a compromise between a realistic load and not generating too much heat internally. Perhaps other commenters can discuss whether this is a suitable value or not.
A nice A/B switch with meters. To prepare two amps for A/B comparison, their levels should be within 1/8 db or less. This can easily be done using a test tone and a DVM (Digital Multimeter) to set the output voltage of each amplifier to within a few millivolts of each other if the amps have an analog volume control. It does not appear those meters supplied on the Fossi would be anywhere accurate enough to do this? Also, most modern HIFI equipment employ an electronic stepped volume control with only a resolution of 1/2-1 db increments. Unless you get lucky, it is unlikely to get the amps close enough for a valid A/B test. In that case, replace the Y cables with a simple potted Y box to allow accurately setting the line levels to equalize each amps output.
I think that seeing as you would be using the same meters for both amps, the accuracy should be good enough. I doubt whether many listeners can judge 0.125 of a dB, but tiny changes in frequency balance over a wide enough range are definitely audible.
@@AudioMasterclass Yes a change of .125 of a db would be below the threshold of audibility. The smallest audible change in level can be as small as 0.2 dB for frequencies between 1,000 and 4,000 Hz according to ChatGPT (doing research the lazy way).
I don't want noisy switches/relays between me and my music, I certainly don't want a noisy power supply anywhere near my speaker cables. Seriously though a genuine audiophile would not want even a switch in the signal path. How though do the meters work if they are not extracting some of the signal? I would suspect there are quite a few components needed to achieve that, in fact a quick check of the blurb on Amazon says so... Superior Components: Integrated with 390Ω protective load resistors, thickened copper foil circuits, premium speaker binding posts, and switching relays, the LC30 ensures virtually no impact or loss in sound quality and supports a maximum 250W power transmission per channel. This allows you to enjoy the purest high-fidelity sound. So if I was an audiophile I wouldn't want those components in my precious system, as fossi say virtually no loss in sound quality ergo there must be some loss. As the cheapo audioman I'd love the buttons lights and meters :-)
@@s_r_v There will be virtually zero insertion loss. The meter movements typically work on 100 microamps of current and will have 100k or higher resistors in series for scaling. Given the 8 ohm impedance of most speaker lines that is as close to infinity as makes no difference. The insertion loss due to the connectors and relays is probably in the order of 5 or 10 milliohms... again virtually zero. Finally... if your amplifier has delayed turn on with that nifty click when it's ready ... you already have all that and more in line with your speakers.
If you connect 2 amplifiers and 1 set of speakers to this unit, then set the amplifier outputs to be more or less the same, and then select 1 of the amplifiers to drive the speakers does not having a speaker load on the non-selected amplifier damage it?
Apparently the amp that is not in use is connected to a resistor. It used to be a thing that some amps didn't like driving effectively a load of infinite impedance. Whether this is still a thing, I don't know.
Would luv someone to make a VU meter, either analog or vacuum florescent but the same width as the other components I have. Not some strange odd ball size.
This Fosi LC30 is having a 66dB scale on it's linear meters ( VU meters have a logarithmic scale on a linear meter ) I'm wandering how accurate the lin-log converter circuit will be ? Have somebody ever tested that ?
Well blank panels are a thing and I had some myself in the days when I had 19" racks in my studio. An engineer might use the Palindrometer when the client absolutely insists that something needs changing, but it doesn't. The engineer can twiddle the rotator knob and the client will be satisfied.
I like the look of that, but my needs are really a lot simpler. All I want at the moment is to see a bit of useful action from the VUs on my Akai 4000DS. Actually, I *can* get some action out of them, but not without pushing the levels so high that the audio is horribly distorted (source as well as tape). Well, my faffing about with audio (and it is faffing) is a long way removed from these more refined pursuits - more Fozzie Bear than Fosi Audio.
This is the great truth: "human hearing system is notorious for thinking that louder equals better". When you know that, you understand a lot of things.
I spent my first 10-15 years using VU meters. Once I had a choice, I NEVER went back. First the European PPMs commonly found on Neve consoles, later part of the light meter engineering team making the JH500 console at MCI and so forth. Today, I have a Dorrough program meter right in front of my face that I cannot mix without and recently bought a second one in a lightweight portable fiberglas case with a short loom of XLR cables. The Dorrough portrays mixed program exactly like I hear it. VUs were ok on a multitrack recorder, as we learned where to record each instrument. Some manufacturers even produced high end consoles with rows of track VUs but no VU in sight for the mix buss. A program VU is a contradiction in terms. They are also frightfully expensive at $500+ for a pair. No thanks.
Does it have a pass-through that allows you to run from amp A to speaker set A without turning the unit on? I have a Heed headphone amp that does this, and it's very useful, I only need it on occasionally.
I'm going to be perfectly honest here. I've never understood VU meters for music playback. In the studio, it sure makes sense to have a VU meter when recording music, but for home listening?
A VU makes a very good signal present indicator, and also gives a useful indication of subjective loudness. But in reality, home users just like the look of them, and why not?
@@Douglas_Blake_579 it s a thing from the past. when you wanted to record on a cassette tape in those days, you had VU meters and a knob to set levels right for recording on tape. There was some kind of maximum level depending of the sort of cassette tape, and you had to adjust that.
@@AudioMasterclass Just to be sure. So instead of measuring the voltage across a resistor to determine the current in the VU-box, you could clamp on and have your knowledge updated and enjoy not being an audiophile without an electronics degree?
0 dBm is one milliwatt. Voltage, ohms, current and stuff follow from that. 3 dB is, as you say, a doubling or halving of power. 6 dB is a doubling of voltage and a quadrupling of power.
Today there is little point in the PPM because we have digital meters that can read peaks more accurately. The VU is still useful because it gives a reasonably good impression of the subjective loudness of a signal. They look nice too.
"*KNOB FEEL*""... Look @ the *SIZE* of that toroidal transformer... what *POWER* *"Y-splitters, Sir?* (Oh my giddy Aunt....) >>> *As for those VU's...* *Give me John, Lou, Moe & Sterling (plus Nico, Angus & possibly even Doug)...*Crikey! **>BUT< Millenials...NEVER FEAR!* *You can buy them on vinyls*... *Possibly even* ... *GASP!! *coloured vinyls* ............. Disgruntled voice, "Och, It's just a cheap blimmin' switching amp: Calm doon ya' eejits..."
Well... you just take the banana plugs on those cables and plug them into the back of the meters. I promise you the wire won't care and neither will the meters.
@@Douglas_Blake_579 Audiophiles preach that anything you put in the way of a signal is degrading it so why put a switch box in there. seems to me a very niche product just to make comparisons, but I don't have money to burn.
@@andymouse You can always just hook them up to "Speakers B" and watch the needles. Indeed every new connection is adding resistance but it's usually in such small quantities nobody would ever actually hear it. Or, to put it another way: Perfectionism is it's own punishment.
This used to be a channel discussing various topics on audio and hi-fi and it was quite interesting and fun. Lately is becoming more and more focused on reviewing chinese audio accessories. I miss the old videos style, these reviews are getting repetitive and not so much interesting.
I appreciate your comment. My perspective is that I want to make videos on whatever interests me in the moment. I've seen too many channels achieve great subscriber and views figures, but they've locked themselves into a single topic and probably regret that. Reviews have interested me lately but what's going to interest me next week, month, year, I don't know.
Being a 'Murrican, I do like VU meters. But adding more stuff and more connections (I don't own a MCIntosh or anything)... In guitar the more you add to your signal path, the more risk for noise/hum. I'm not the customer for this gear anyway. 2 speakers, a preamp, an amp, an EQ, various input signals. For the right use-case, this looks great.
Love VU meters on tape recorders, power amp level meters, A/B/X comparators, Baxandall tone controls, LC-design equalizers, tactile physical knobs and switches. And I love music, for music sake. Call me old-fashioned. Call me weird. But don't call me late for a musical coffee break! 😊👍☕️🎶🎶 ( As an aside, since you mentioned in this video Quad ESLs, I'll add that I had owned a pair of Quad ESL(-57), and later on, a pair of Quad ESL-63. Loved them both, too. 😊 When it came time, I was very reluctant to sell either, but I had to. Funny how most pieces of equipment were easy to let go of, but only few pieces were hard to do so. C'est la vie! )
The meters are reading speaker voltage and making assumptions about current. Also about the sensitivity issue.... th-cam.com/video/5bFPjyU5zDs/w-d-xo.htmlsi=hZZ2eKI-HAOSq3v_
@@AudioMasterclass appreciate the Shatki Stone link sent. I read the article and feel validated. Shatki Stone is the real deal Lucile! As for mental health I believe listening to great music is the right prescription…
I was interested in this as we run some rather large speakers at 103db senitivity, 15" bass drivers, though hopefully not long term. But obviously at night it would be great to run a smaller speaker. But I would also like to run two pairs of speakers running at the same time, and seen no confirmation this box can run both A&B speakers at the same time. As for amplifier differences, well we are currently running a AV processor into a rather large 15kg ugly proffesional power amp simply because it does actually sound better than the massive 25kg integrated in a particular area, the bass performance from those 15" drivers can be felt and heard going a lot deeper with the pre-power set up. We have had this issue on a few speakers with large bass drivers or that go down into the lower frequencies, the integrated simply lacks the dampening factor and ability to control large speakers going low.
I'm a budget hifi enthusiast, so I'll be saving my money and continue to insist my wife hang upside down over my stack of ancient stuff and switch plugs at my command. It's the only time she gets to listen to my system, but I suspect the soundstage is distinctly backstage down there. I can never make my mind up anyway.
Binding posts ,spades and bannana plugs have to be the worst connector system ever devised ,and you need a connector..for the connector!.. I remember a Sansui amp I used to have that had terminals that you just pushed the bare wires into the back and twisted the teminal 90 degrees and it locked ...THE best design ever!
You can still use bare wire with those binding posts... they have a hole in the side for that. Of course, tinned ends on the wire will give you a better connection.
@@Douglas_Blake_579 Yes.. you must love fumbling around the cramped space ,trying to get into the side of the post,getting a stray strand to short the case,r soldering ..attaching a bannana plugs puny grub screw to a bare wire..decreasing all the contact area ,sticking miles out the back of the device ..all totally unnecessary fail points . your welcome
@@marxman00 Wow ... that's a very interesting story you made up about me. Not true, of course. I just strip and tin the ends of the wires, slip them into the side holes and turn the top down to clamp them.
Why is it that in _every single TH-cam video_ showcasing any kind of FOSI equipment, THE BOX looks like it got run over by an 18-wheeler? And we're supposed to believe this is Audiophile-Grade sound equipment?
I don't know for sure but I'd guess that these are pre-release samples, either that or boxes that have been used internally, then used to send gear to reviewers. If any real-world Fosi buyer would like to weigh in, please do.
@@AudioMasterclass I went ahead and ordered a V3/TB10D package deal from Amazon, and both arrived in pristine condition. So you're either correct about the pre-release deal, or the delivery guy read my youtube comment. :) BTW, these things are worth every penny!
These meters are especially useless, the power scaling is incorrect and the db references are incorrect. The difference between 20w and 100w is not 10db, nor is the difference between 100w and 200w 4db. The printing on the meter face may as well be blank. Edit: Also, unless there's a dummy load in here, don't use this with a tube amplifier.
Well spotted. I gave up when I realised there was no connection between the scale and what I was hearing. There is a dummy load apparently - 390 ohms according to the website.
Overpriced for what it is. There are many reviews about this product that all have the same complaint, the meters don't really work unless there is sufficient power driving them. I notice that your little Fosi amp is at 3/4 volume!!!. Audiophiles won't have a need for this product, this is because of their belief that adding anything between the source and end pathway of any audio signal will degrade the purity of said signal. I have had 2 systems in my room for about 20 years. I had two pairs of speakers for the L/R channels. Recently I bought a similar product, it only cost £29.00. Although it doesn't have the VU meters or remote. Depending on the setup, it will switch between either 2 amps into 1 pair of speakers, or 2 pairs of speakers into 1 amp. My AV amp that sounds great when in surround sound mode is a bit lackluster when in 2 channel stereo mode. I switch between amps simply because my Tannoy Cheviots will reproduce any signal accurately. They will work fine as the front L and R for the AV setup and equally well as the main speakers in my 2 channel HiFi setup.
I don't remember whether I mentioned it but I had my B&W DM100 monitors as loud as I could possibly ever want. I'm guessing that a 250 watt amp into inefficient speakers may tweak the needle a bit harder but Fosi would benefit from looking into this.
@@RaymondReeves-db8dr For my use case, this type of product is a solution, not a problem. I have several audio systems (including a high-end system) and in my vintage audio system I have several receivers from the 70s that I restored and two pairs of speakers. I use this kind of black box to allow me to compare and listen to different receivers with friends. The main advantage is the remote control which allows you to quickly switch from one receiver to another. I also have another black box with remote control to allow me to share audio sources between the two receivers. My comment is based on my actual experience using the Fosi LC30. The use of this product with very efficient speakers ensures that the vumeters practically do not move for a good listening volume. The vumeters barely move with speakers of average efficiency. The other functions of the Fosi LC30 works well. The manufacturing quality is very good. I respect your opinion regarding the fact that you consider this product to be too expensive and a gimmick, but I think that in a vintage context, this type of product adds a visual dimension while being very functional.
It would not be wrong to say that anything has the potential to add degradation. But then any hi-fi equipment has loads of stuff inside. Is it all adding degradation or doing work that is more useful than any degradation it might cause?
This isn’t a product for audiophiles. They would never consider placing extra unnecessary components in the signal path. This is a product from a Chinese budget manufacturer. The audiophile will have assumed they used cheap relays (with nasty Silver Cadmium Oxide contacts). This contact material is useless for low level signals and could never get the approval of an audiophile. Furthermore, the system requires extra speaker cables and 4mm plugs. What a bizarre product! Something for the e-waste mountain.
You’re missing the point. It’s part of the audiophile tool chest. I have two of these for testing and pairing equipment. Most audiophiles have multiple amps, speakers, preamps, cables, and sources hence this is a fun little switcher.
Please, do something about ur anxiety problem! Try some breathing techniques for better control over your physical and mental energy distribution... Can't watch your vids when ur struggling with that!
Why is it that every TH-camr thinks they are Cecil B Demille? Just show us what we want to see instead of trying to play producer and pad out your video with filler and think your opening stuff is exciting. It just makes me click next. And who the hell calls records ..vinyls??? Sure you can guess that I won’t be subscribing.
Did you not watch the video? I gave several use cases. Maybe none of them are a fit for you but if you can't appreciate that other people might find them interesting you probably need to get out more.
@@AudioMasterclass The whole review says little, its not even a review, its messy rubbish - you can do far better than this! I have noticed the last 3 may 4 videos are pretty much poimtless, they provide little information - its waffle mainly! Dont let this channel go down hill please! I enjoy your stuff! Maybe sit back and have a re-think about the recent content! I frankly feel its all going a bit south sorry.
Still, no refutation of any of my facts, no comment on any of my opinions. You've said nothing for me to consider. Your comment is as much waffle as is, apparently, my video. If you want to influence a TH-camr, any TH-camr, you'll need to do better.
Fair enough then. May I kindly suggest then a number of topics I would like you to cover at some point over the coming year? Something us subscribers to your channel might, pehaps benefit from your knoledge, perhaps learn something, or improve our knowledge on audio. What do you think? Best regards, Eric.
@@EricIolo You can certainly suggest topics but I can't give any guarantee that I'll cover them. I make my videos on whatever happens to interest me in the moment and I don't plan more than a week or so in advance. Having said that, many of my videos have been prompted by comments, not necessarily requests to cover a topic but just something that sparked me off. Practicality can also be an issue, and it's certainly the case that I won't cover a topic if I don't think I can do it well.
Great video. I had my LC30 for several months now and have lots of fun and very happy with it. I am switching between tube amp and a solid state amp with external tube buffer (and without). All your comments are spot on especially trying to place two different speakers on the same sweet spot. Good tip on using the meter to set the sound level on the two amps for A/B comparisons..
I have the Douk Audio equivalent- similar meters, and the same 2 amp 2 speaker switching. I agree that speaker comparisons are generally easy so this device is less important for those, but I have found amp comparisons fascinating. Currently I have one 'warm' amp and one 'detailed' amp in the system and the differences are really obvious. And which I prefer depends upon the music and the source, so the ability to switch is really useful.
Next is to compare the warm amp against another that I expect to sound similar- which is best? And the same for the detailed one, til I have the best warm and the best detailed amp in place. Win win.
And its fun playing with it of course.
I got my off the Kickstarter Campaign with black meters.
Looks pretty cool in black.
Intention was to use as an A/B switch.
It works as intended.
Definitely buying one of these.
Asfor the amp comparison video - yes please!
The comparison video might be titled 'Yes - Amps do sound different" or "No - amps don't sound different". At this point, I don't know which it will be (and of course the result will be dependent on my hearing).
This is a useful toy, at least as a switch, and it even glows in the dark. While there is some correlation between sound dynamics and meter movements, I wish it was more sensitive (I own a similar device, another brand).
Aww, I wanted to see inside it....cheers.
Very handy! Good point on the A/B comparisons. Audiophiles get ornery when called out haha! Nice vid.
I'm already hotly anticipating the "irritating Unboxing Music Experience" album while sitting in my Lidl replica Eames armchair (with footstool). Thanks again for an excellent review!
An Eames replica in the middle aisle. The stuff of dreams.
It really wasn't until the mid 1970's that VU meters became available on amps-n-receivers. Sure, they were on tape decks early on but not receivers. Later years had florescent bar-graph type meters and VU's faded away. Still though, the ol' VU's are fun to watch and can be helpful. If ya like the VU type, ya probably dig strobe lights, lava lamps and black lights too.
Is it true that less is more in the signal path?
Notice any degradation when introduced in the path?
Marketing: so you like VU meters, huh? We will make the entire front panel ALL METER!
Meters move when the unit is off (using input B - Output B), not buffered, might add some slight (probably inaudable) distortion.
It needs a pair of fast acting LED ( a whole bunch of them. perhaps withsome some knobs to give them various multicolor ranges) peak meters under the VU's with a short hold on the highest peaks. This of course should have another knob to turn them off. Further thinking about it maybe the Vu meters could use multiple ranges too that could be accomplished by changing the screen behind them . Then it would look impressive with low powered amplifiers too or when you are at low levels as I'm usually listening at. Maybe a way to read the combined power level of all three of my amplifiers would be a nice option too.😊. Have a great day ❤
You need the Nakamichi version.
@@AudioMasterclass nah I think I can l skip the power meters
Your replica Eames lounge chair!! Haha, so very audiophile! (Bet you're champing at the bit in anticipation of Fosi's soon to be released V3 based XLR monoblocs)
Maybe I have them already.
I have a stereo pair of Dorrough 40-A2 loudness meters. Got them for not too much money and love the look. They serve no purpose in my setup but just look pretty 😅
I wish they did the meters in blue. I would buy that in a heart beat for no practical purpose other than it looks cool.
Hi. thank you for your review. What are the splitters for ?
🤣🤣I have a receiver, 2 integrated amps... & three pairs of speakers. 😜🌩⚡💣💥👀
Now, seriously, a fair, simple-straight-to-the-point review.
So do I....it's all connected into a single system....ironically it sounds nice at low volume. My small sub can't keep up at high volume...think I need a couple more subs.
@@stevengagnon4777 I am going Rythmik Subwoofers. Likely two F18s...
Might give it a try as a switch between my Dynaudios and my AKG K 1000 headphones. The headphones need a full blown amp to drive them and it is a PIA to unplug the speakers and plug in the headphones instead.
Driving headphones from a power amp is most definitely a thing. Moreso in professional audio, but I may make a video on this in the future.
I am so glad I am not an "Audiophile" who spends all his time listening to his system.
I am an Audio enthusiast who spends all his time listening to his music. And yes some of it is my old vinyl and rightly so - it is what I want to listen to and will not be influenced by anyone - especially those people who do not know / understand me and my preferences.
My system is all 2nd hand and cost me under £2,000 - it is all good kit as it does what I want, therefore I do not need to change it or upgrade it or even update it with new kit. I am content which is a wonderful state to achieve but Audiophiles I am guessing could never be content but always on a quest. To my mind therefore Audiophiles are always disappointed with what they have no matter how wonderful their kit is or how much they have spent. how sad for them.
congratulations, that s the way to go
Can you adjust/calibrate the vu meters. Right side is not moving the same as left. Changed the input already.
Is it always safe to drive an audio power amplifier (including class D) into an open circuit while it is not the active DUT in an A/B comparison? I'm pretty sure the unused amplifier can't be terminated in anything close to its usual low impedance load, so I'd be curious whether this is handled in some way or simply left to chance.
There's a 390 ohm dummy load apparently. I can see that this is a compromise between a realistic load and not generating too much heat internally. Perhaps other commenters can discuss whether this is a suitable value or not.
Sent mine back needed to blast high volumes to get the needles to move….Fosi said this will be fixed. Not sure if upgraded version is available yet.
That was my question too. What is it?🎉
Love all the stuff!
Plenty of stuff.
Only advanced audiophiles need apply. Currently seeking new digs and top priority is a good listening room, followed by a nice view.
A nice A/B switch with meters. To prepare two amps for A/B comparison, their levels should be within 1/8 db or less. This can easily be done using a test tone and a DVM (Digital Multimeter) to set the output voltage of each amplifier to within a few millivolts of each other if the amps have an analog volume control. It does not appear those meters supplied on the Fossi would be anywhere accurate enough to do this? Also, most modern HIFI equipment employ an electronic stepped volume control with only a resolution of 1/2-1 db increments. Unless you get lucky, it is unlikely to get the amps close enough for a valid A/B test. In that case, replace the Y cables with a simple potted Y box to allow accurately setting the line levels to equalize each amps output.
I think that seeing as you would be using the same meters for both amps, the accuracy should be good enough. I doubt whether many listeners can judge 0.125 of a dB, but tiny changes in frequency balance over a wide enough range are definitely audible.
@@AudioMasterclass Yes a change of .125 of a db would be below the threshold of audibility. The smallest audible change in level can be as small as 0.2 dB for frequencies between 1,000 and 4,000 Hz according to ChatGPT (doing research the lazy way).
Surely an audiophile wouldn't want extra connections and cheapo components between their amps and speakers? What does audio Phil think?
There are no components between the amps and speakers, only switches (relays).
@@georgebliss964
relays are components and the contacts will deteriorate over time.
I don't want noisy switches/relays between me and my music, I certainly don't want a noisy power supply anywhere near my speaker cables.
Seriously though a genuine audiophile would not want even a switch in the signal path.
How though do the meters work if they are not extracting some of the signal? I would suspect there are quite a few components needed to achieve that, in fact a quick check of the blurb on Amazon says so...
Superior Components: Integrated with 390Ω protective load resistors, thickened copper foil circuits, premium speaker binding posts, and switching relays, the LC30 ensures virtually no impact or loss in sound quality and supports a maximum 250W power transmission per channel. This allows you to enjoy the purest high-fidelity sound.
So if I was an audiophile I wouldn't want those components in my precious system, as fossi say virtually no loss in sound quality ergo there must be some loss.
As the cheapo audioman I'd love the buttons lights and meters :-)
So wire it in parallel rather than in series?
@@s_r_v
There will be virtually zero insertion loss.
The meter movements typically work on 100 microamps of current and will have 100k or higher resistors in series for scaling. Given the 8 ohm impedance of most speaker lines that is as close to infinity as makes no difference.
The insertion loss due to the connectors and relays is probably in the order of 5 or 10 milliohms... again virtually zero.
Finally... if your amplifier has delayed turn on with that nifty click when it's ready ... you already have all that and more in line with your speakers.
If you connect 2 amplifiers and 1 set of speakers to this unit, then set the amplifier outputs to be more or less the same, and then select 1 of the amplifiers to drive the speakers does not having a speaker load on the non-selected amplifier damage it?
Apparently the amp that is not in use is connected to a resistor. It used to be a thing that some amps didn't like driving effectively a load of infinite impedance. Whether this is still a thing, I don't know.
@@AudioMasterclass Interesting, thanks.
Can this equipment be used with active (B.T.) Speakers? It sounds like it can't.
wouldn’t it also give a quick verification of something you’re listening to having been mastered unusually “loud” or “quiet”?
Would luv someone to make a VU meter, either analog or vacuum florescent but the same width as the other components I have. Not some strange odd ball size.
7:57 "...your replica Eames Lounge Chair", Oh man, that describes me perfectly! HAHAHA.
As always, good and interesting content. Thanks!
This Fosi LC30 is having a 66dB scale on it's linear meters ( VU meters have a logarithmic scale on a linear meter ) I'm wandering how accurate the lin-log converter circuit will be ? Have somebody ever tested that ?
How does it power up? I did not see a power supply during unboxing.
You should review Funk Logic's Palindrometer, altough it's designed mostly for pros.
Well blank panels are a thing and I had some myself in the days when I had 19" racks in my studio. An engineer might use the Palindrometer when the client absolutely insists that something needs changing, but it doesn't. The engineer can twiddle the rotator knob and the client will be satisfied.
@@AudioMasterclass I was being sarcastic :). That would be an instant hit at an audiophile gathering!
I like the look of that, but my needs are really a lot simpler. All I want at the moment is to see a bit of useful action from the VUs on my Akai 4000DS. Actually, I *can* get some action out of them, but not without pushing the levels so high that the audio is horribly distorted (source as well as tape). Well, my faffing about with audio (and it is faffing) is a long way removed from these more refined pursuits - more Fozzie Bear than Fosi Audio.
This is the great truth: "human hearing system is notorious for thinking that louder equals better". When you know that, you understand a lot of things.
I spent my first 10-15 years using VU meters. Once I had a choice, I NEVER went back. First the European PPMs commonly found on Neve consoles, later part of the light meter engineering team making the JH500 console at MCI and so forth.
Today, I have a Dorrough program meter right in front of my face that I cannot mix without and recently bought a second one in a lightweight portable fiberglas case with a short loom of XLR cables. The Dorrough portrays mixed program exactly like I hear it.
VUs were ok on a multitrack recorder, as we learned where to record each instrument. Some manufacturers even produced high end consoles with rows of track VUs but no VU in sight for the mix buss. A program VU is a contradiction in terms. They are also frightfully expensive at $500+ for a pair. No thanks.
Once you go PPM you can never go back.
So you know when Beethoven’s violin or Van Halen’s guitar peaked, then what?
I want 1980s led VU meters/indicators, - that’s audiophile!
Watching this while Jazz at the Pawnshop VINYL is playing 😂
Loved the video aspect ratio 😅
Does it have a pass-through that allows you to run from amp A to speaker set A without turning the unit on? I have a Heed headphone amp that does this, and it's very useful, I only need it on occasionally.
Pass-through is an interesting concept that I might comment on at some point in the future. Thank you for reminding me.
You been watching Erin's Audio Corner again?
I often watch other audio channels so that I can learn what not to do.
I'm going to be perfectly honest here. I've never understood VU meters for music playback. In the studio, it sure makes sense to have a VU meter when recording music, but for home listening?
A VU makes a very good signal present indicator, and also gives a useful indication of subjective loudness. But in reality, home users just like the look of them, and why not?
As David said ... people like watching them bob around.
@@Douglas_Blake_579 it s a thing from the past. when you wanted to record on a cassette tape in those days, you had VU meters and a knob to set levels right for recording on tape. There was some kind of maximum level depending of the sort of cassette tape, and you had to adjust that.
@@thepuma2012
Yes, I know what a VU meter on a cassette deck does... and believe it or not, I even know how to use them.
I like knobs, but VU meters are useless and sometimes even irritating except when I am recording.
Let's see a cage match of tube amp vs transistor amp.
Zeos loves his knobs
So, do you think a clamp meter to measure current will affect the sound?
If I were a proper audiophile I'd think that the day of the week would affect the sound.
@@AudioMasterclass Just to be sure. So instead of measuring the voltage across a resistor to determine the current in the VU-box, you could clamp on and have your knowledge updated and enjoy not being an audiophile without an electronics degree?
0 dBM is 1 v rms into 330 ohm from memory of class 44 years ago? 3 dB is a doubling or halving of power. I'll watch the video later maybe.
0 dBm is one milliwatt. Voltage, ohms, current and stuff follow from that. 3 dB is, as you say, a doubling or halving of power. 6 dB is a doubling of voltage and a quadrupling of power.
VU meters are like a wine bottle cork. Quaint, snob approved but superseded by better tech,
VU v PPM. Which is better? Is it a case of one for broadcast the other for all the rest?
Today there is little point in the PPM because we have digital meters that can read peaks more accurately. The VU is still useful because it gives a reasonably good impression of the subjective loudness of a signal. They look nice too.
You can hear the difference between amps. For sure.
You're funny in a good way. I like your Spanish
Question ou est l'entré ?
"*KNOB FEEL*""... Look @ the *SIZE* of that toroidal transformer... what *POWER*
*"Y-splitters, Sir?* (Oh my giddy Aunt....) >>>
*As for those VU's...* *Give me John, Lou, Moe & Sterling (plus Nico, Angus & possibly even Doug)...*Crikey! **>BUT< Millenials...NEVER FEAR!* *You can buy them on vinyls*... *Possibly even* ... *GASP!! *coloured vinyls* ............. Disgruntled voice, "Och, It's just a cheap blimmin' switching amp: Calm doon ya' eejits..."
Forgot to ask, how can you spend £1000 on interconnects and then put a bunch of Omron Relays in the way ?
Well... you just take the banana plugs on those cables and plug them into the back of the meters. I promise you the wire won't care and neither will the meters.
@@Douglas_Blake_579 Audiophiles preach that anything you put in the way of a signal is degrading it so why put a switch box in there. seems to me a very niche product just to make comparisons, but I don't have money to burn.
@@andymouse
You can always just hook them up to "Speakers B" and watch the needles.
Indeed every new connection is adding resistance but it's usually in such small quantities nobody would ever actually hear it.
Or, to put it another way: Perfectionism is it's own punishment.
@@Douglas_Blake_579 :)
Don't think anyone who's spent thousands on interconnects is going to use this anyway.
Dan Nigro is amazing.
This used to be a channel discussing various topics on audio and hi-fi and it was quite interesting and fun. Lately is becoming more and more focused on reviewing chinese audio accessories. I miss the old videos style, these reviews are getting repetitive and not so much interesting.
I appreciate your comment. My perspective is that I want to make videos on whatever interests me in the moment. I've seen too many channels achieve great subscriber and views figures, but they've locked themselves into a single topic and probably regret that. Reviews have interested me lately but what's going to interest me next week, month, year, I don't know.
Nice review of a slightly odd product. I really thought you were going to break into song listing the operating scenarios. Damn…
Don't tempt me.
@@AudioMasterclass You were just seconds away
Being a 'Murrican, I do like VU meters. But adding more stuff and more connections (I don't own a MCIntosh or anything)... In guitar the more you add to your signal path, the more risk for noise/hum. I'm not the customer for this gear anyway. 2 speakers, a preamp, an amp, an EQ, various input signals. For the right use-case, this looks great.
Love VU meters on tape recorders, power amp level meters, A/B/X comparators, Baxandall tone controls, LC-design equalizers, tactile physical knobs and switches. And I love music, for music sake. Call me old-fashioned. Call me weird. But don't call me late for a musical coffee break! 😊👍☕️🎶🎶 ( As an aside, since you mentioned in this video Quad ESLs, I'll add that I had owned a pair of Quad ESL(-57), and later on, a pair of Quad ESL-63. Loved them both, too. 😊 When it came time, I was very reluctant to sell either, but I had to. Funny how most pieces of equipment were easy to let go of, but only few pieces were hard to do so. C'est la vie! )
How dare you! Of course I have progressed beyond The Dark Side of the Moon all the way to Close to the Edge.
Yeah, tell me when you've listened to Tales from Topographic Oceans in one session.
The meters are reading speaker voltage and making assumptions about current.
Also about the sensitivity issue....
th-cam.com/video/5bFPjyU5zDs/w-d-xo.htmlsi=hZZ2eKI-HAOSq3v_
2VU fa shure ❤
Unboxinate! Unboxinate!
You’re tempting me.
On your home Victrola I really can't see the point of " VU " meters.
Not like you are recording a band .
Where is comment on Shatki Stone…I don’t believe in much, but I believe in Shatki Stone!
Comment readers who place little value on their mental health might learn more here... www.google.com/search?q=Shatki+Stone
@@AudioMasterclass appreciate the Shatki Stone link sent. I read the article and feel validated. Shatki Stone is the real deal Lucile! As for mental health I believe listening to great music is the right prescription…
I was interested in this as we run some rather large speakers at 103db senitivity, 15" bass drivers, though hopefully not long term. But obviously at night it would be great to run a smaller speaker.
But I would also like to run two pairs of speakers running at the same time, and seen no confirmation this box can run both A&B speakers at the same time.
As for amplifier differences, well we are currently running a AV processor into a rather large 15kg ugly proffesional power amp simply because it does actually sound better than the massive 25kg integrated in a particular area, the bass performance from those 15" drivers can be felt and heard going a lot deeper with the pre-power set up.
We have had this issue on a few speakers with large bass drivers or that go down into the lower frequencies, the integrated simply lacks the dampening factor and ability to control large speakers going low.
I'm a budget hifi enthusiast, so I'll be saving my money and continue to insist my wife hang upside down over my stack of ancient stuff and switch plugs at my command. It's the only time she gets to listen to my system, but I suspect the soundstage is distinctly backstage down there. I can never make my mind up anyway.
BTW, don't tell her that from her listening position the channels are reversed.
SDDS vu meters and something . he doesn't have THX booth monitor rather rare now female 3417
Binding posts ,spades and bannana plugs have to be the worst connector system ever devised ,and you need a connector..for the connector!.. I remember a Sansui amp I used to have that had terminals that you just pushed the bare wires into the back and twisted the teminal 90 degrees and it locked ...THE best design ever!
You can still use bare wire with those binding posts... they have a hole in the side for that. Of course, tinned ends on the wire will give you a better connection.
I have a Technics SU-Z200 amp and it has the same type of speaker terminals as your Sansui amp.
@@Douglas_Blake_579 Yes.. you must love fumbling around the cramped space ,trying to get into the side of the post,getting a stray strand to short the case,r soldering ..attaching a bannana plugs puny grub screw to a bare wire..decreasing all the contact area ,sticking miles out the back of the device ..all totally unnecessary fail points . your welcome
@@marxman00
Wow ... that's a very interesting story you made up about me. Not true, of course.
I just strip and tin the ends of the wires, slip them into the side holes and turn the top down to clamp them.
@@Douglas_Blake_579Tinned with solder? I hope not.
It looks like Johnny 5, auld short circuit himself.
Why is it that in _every single TH-cam video_ showcasing any kind of FOSI equipment, THE BOX looks like it got run over by an 18-wheeler? And we're supposed to believe this is Audiophile-Grade sound equipment?
I don't know for sure but I'd guess that these are pre-release samples, either that or boxes that have been used internally, then used to send gear to reviewers. If any real-world Fosi buyer would like to weigh in, please do.
@@AudioMasterclass I went ahead and ordered a V3/TB10D package deal from Amazon, and both arrived in pristine condition. So you're either correct about the pre-release deal, or the delivery guy read my youtube comment. :) BTW, these things are worth every penny!
Dan likes a different kind of knob!
These meters are especially useless, the power scaling is incorrect and the db references are incorrect. The difference between 20w and 100w is not 10db, nor is the difference between 100w and 200w 4db. The printing on the meter face may as well be blank.
Edit: Also, unless there's a dummy load in here, don't use this with a tube amplifier.
Well spotted. I gave up when I realised there was no connection between the scale and what I was hearing. There is a dummy load apparently - 390 ohms according to the website.
Overpriced for what it is. There are many reviews about this product that all have the same complaint, the meters don't really work unless there is sufficient power driving them. I notice that your little Fosi amp is at 3/4 volume!!!. Audiophiles won't have a need for this product, this is because of their belief that adding anything between the source and end pathway of any audio signal will degrade the purity of said signal. I have had 2 systems in my room for about 20 years. I had two pairs of speakers for the L/R channels. Recently I bought a similar product, it only cost £29.00. Although it doesn't have the VU meters or remote. Depending on the setup, it will switch between either 2 amps into 1 pair of speakers, or 2 pairs of speakers into 1 amp. My AV amp that sounds great when in surround sound mode is a bit lackluster when in 2 channel stereo mode. I switch between amps simply because my Tannoy Cheviots will reproduce any signal accurately. They will work fine as the front L and R for the AV setup and equally well as the main speakers in my 2 channel HiFi setup.
I don't remember whether I mentioned it but I had my B&W DM100 monitors as loud as I could possibly ever want. I'm guessing that a 250 watt amp into inefficient speakers may tweak the needle a bit harder but Fosi would benefit from looking into this.
@@AudioMasterclass I like the concept but I can't see where £159.00 has been spent.
I returned my Fosi LC30 for that reason. My speakers are Klipsch Cornwall and this is not a good match with the Fosi LC30.
@@omegabuzz Mmm.. So really speaking the sound volume that a pair of Klipsch can re-produce should be self evident without the need of a gimmick.
@@RaymondReeves-db8dr For my use case, this type of product is a solution, not a problem. I have several audio systems (including a high-end system) and in my vintage audio system I have several receivers from the 70s that I restored and two pairs of speakers. I use this kind of black box to allow me to compare and listen to different receivers with friends. The main advantage is the remote control which allows you to quickly switch from one receiver to another. I also have another black box with remote control to allow me to share audio sources between the two receivers. My comment is based on my actual experience using the Fosi LC30. The use of this product with very efficient speakers ensures that the vumeters practically do not move for a good listening volume. The vumeters barely move with speakers of average efficiency. The other functions of the Fosi LC30 works well. The manufacturing quality is very good. I respect your opinion regarding the fact that you consider this product to be too expensive and a gimmick, but I think that in a vintage context, this type of product adds a visual dimension while being very functional.
Any real audiophile wouldn’t run their signal through yet another device to degrade said signal.
It would not be wrong to say that anything has the potential to add degradation. But then any hi-fi equipment has loads of stuff inside. Is it all adding degradation or doing work that is more useful than any degradation it might cause?
To me that is nothing more then something to add degradation to the signal path. Less in the path the better.
I like my Pink Floyd "vinyls", and in over 50 years as an audiophile, I have had zero use for VU meters.
Screw you.
Another classic comment for my collection.
This isn’t a product for audiophiles. They would never consider placing extra unnecessary components in the signal path. This is a product from a Chinese budget manufacturer. The audiophile will have assumed they used cheap relays (with nasty Silver Cadmium Oxide contacts). This contact material is useless for low level signals and could never get the approval of an audiophile. Furthermore, the system requires extra speaker cables and 4mm plugs. What a bizarre product! Something for the e-waste mountain.
You’re missing the point. It’s part of the audiophile tool chest. I have two of these for testing and pairing equipment. Most audiophiles have multiple amps, speakers, preamps, cables, and sources hence this is a fun little switcher.
Please, do something about ur anxiety problem! Try some breathing techniques for better control over your physical and mental energy distribution... Can't watch your vids when ur struggling with that!
Get debt forgiveness for that ubiquitous BAP?
Acid Jazz, Funk & Brass 🔈🔉🔊
Why is it that every TH-camr thinks they are Cecil B Demille? Just show us what we want to see instead of trying to play producer and pad out your video with filler and think your opening stuff is exciting. It just makes me click next.
And who the hell calls records ..vinyls???
Sure you can guess that I won’t be subscribing.
Don't worry! I have my other 69,000 subscribers to comfort me.
@@AudioMasterclass oohhh…a whole 69,000. Guess that makes you an “ influencer “ huh?
@davidc8857 This is fun. Send more.
Frankly, what's the point?
Did you not watch the video? I gave several use cases. Maybe none of them are a fit for you but if you can't appreciate that other people might find them interesting you probably need to get out more.
You talking a load of bollocks David!
Then you'd probably want to tell me which of my facts are wrong or which of my opinions you disagree with.
@@AudioMasterclass The whole review says little, its not even a review, its messy rubbish - you can do far better than this! I have noticed the last 3 may 4 videos are pretty much poimtless, they provide little information - its waffle mainly! Dont let this channel go down hill please! I enjoy your stuff! Maybe sit back and have a re-think about the recent content! I frankly feel its all going a bit south sorry.
Still, no refutation of any of my facts, no comment on any of my opinions. You've said nothing for me to consider. Your comment is as much waffle as is, apparently, my video. If you want to influence a TH-camr, any TH-camr, you'll need to do better.
Fair enough then. May I kindly suggest then a number of topics I would like you to cover at some point over the coming year? Something us subscribers to your channel might, pehaps benefit from your knoledge, perhaps learn something, or improve our knowledge on audio. What do you think? Best regards, Eric.
@@EricIolo You can certainly suggest topics but I can't give any guarantee that I'll cover them. I make my videos on whatever happens to interest me in the moment and I don't plan more than a week or so in advance. Having said that, many of my videos have been prompted by comments, not necessarily requests to cover a topic but just something that sparked me off. Practicality can also be an issue, and it's certainly the case that I won't cover a topic if I don't think I can do it well.