The Saracens' market bonus is kind of the opposite of the Huns' house bonus: it gives you more things to do when playing the civ, but it is potentially very strong.
@@jesusrubiomaldonado27 In a perfect game its a useless bonus because the market creates inefficiency. I'll tell you in another 22 years if I ever see a perfect game though, high elo players know to use the market to create timing windows and adjust for pressured resources, and low elo players use it to dump the 2k wood they aren't using but keep chopping. (I'm talking about myself in the 2nd example)
@@BirdMoose nah man its really good market bonus u can literally sell 100 food and 100 wood n the early to go castle instead of 200 wood or 200 food or even more for other civs just dont hoard stuff u dont need
Do infantry unit tier list next. It's been a while and with new civs I'd ve interested in seeing what changed. Unless of course you're waiting for the next expansion.
With one civ with an apparently OP infantry after another (Romans and Armenians in primis, although things like Malays' free infantry armour (which had to be tempered by them losing Gambeson next patch) are also a concern) coming out, this comment have aged like wine.
Your bohemians logic is actually very, VERY well. I like that POV putting arabia result as a sign of how an eco is early is actually a correct way of measuring it.
For anyone curious, since it came out so close to this, Hera's video is only his picks for Top 5 but he also includes some "Honorable Mentions" as well as the symbols of several other civs jokingly expressing their disbelief at his #1 pick (suggesting they plus the HMs make up the rest of his S/A tier, so to speak): HM: Britons, Celts, Burmese, Franks Symbols who thought they should be #1: Khmer, Teutons, Poles, Hindustanis, Bengalis 5 - Burgundians 4 - Bohemians 3 - Vietnamese 2 - Romans 1 - Vikings So the biggest points of contention between that and this are absolutely Bohemians (4th best vs 23rd) and Cumans (not mentioned vs 1B), followed by Malay+Chinese (S rank for Ornlu, not mentioned by Hera) and Burmese (Ornlu having them in B-tier)
10:22 "You are having 35% faster working lumberjacks" IIRC that's incorrect, Celts' bonus is multiplicative, therefore 1.15*1.20 = 1.38, i.e. 38% faster, not 35% 13:10 Heavily disagree with Cumans in S tier. Only for closed maps. Any sort of hybrid maps or Nomad, 2nd TC is way slower than extra Docks. And on Arabia you can look up Viper vs SayMyName (don't remember which tournament, but should not be hard to find). If Viper cannot get away with the Feudal TC vs a player that's not top 10, this is not a viable strategy. 22:50 Why bring up Khmer going FC without extra buildings on Nomad while simultaneously disregarding how terrible Cumans are on Nomad? Either count all maps or be consistent and not move the goalposts. Furthermore, this is 100% not S tier. as it's closer to what Bohemians or Burmese have, as it becomes worse compared to a generic civ like Byz as both get Wheel/HCart, you only farm +2.4% faster when both have Hand Cart, i.e. you eventually farm about as fast as Berbers... 35:11 Slavs. The opposite of Khmer - get stronger with wheel/HC (+10.1%/+10.8% over a generic civ). Therefore, should be in the same tier. 37:20 Tatars get 2 sheep with every new TC, coupled with their extra res from sheep bonus you get something like a farm with Horse collar worth of savings, e.g, 60% of the Britons' cheaper TC bonus, BUT you also get a massive +550 res in Castle Age from free Thumb Ring, and since 1v1 is a zero sum game, if you do eco damage to the opponent with your Archers you can count that as an eco bonus, since the point of an eco bonus is to get a better eco than your opponent.
The discount bonuses really boil down to how it's used. Whereas most gold bonuses are great at letting you pump out more units for the same eco, wood and food discounts let you sneak out some units while you're booming.
I think that's a misconception. You can just balance accordingly. Either you make more gold units or you have less on gold (and then more wood and food again). Total res is what matters.
@@Umdeuter i dont know, in theory that should be the case. But in reality you often run into situations where moving a vil form one resource to another not only costs you a few seconds of transfer time but also efficiency at the deposit. Most evidently for food production of which is capped by by how many farms you can afford in wood. Or to put it differently: if that were the case saracens would be D-tier until late imperial.
You missed the Bengali's team bonus. Doesn't really change much. You also missed some of the other trade-related eco bonuses (Bohemian's market works faster and Italian's silk road tech).
Idea for the coming tier lists: blend in the civ your talking about in the top right corner, so we can read all bonuses while you're talking. Sometimes it's hard to follow if you don't play the game every day...
I know it’s not the focus but also consider the Chinese farm boost is a team bonus. A couple of the civs should get a small grade boost or consideration for this I feel like. Do agree that civ specifically has had the conversation around its eco/start changed a little, and probs overall a little less strong, but I’m no top 100 or anything so hard for me to say, just personal feel so far.
@ornlu, fun fact. All pros don't actually know how saracen work. You know that becausw mathmatically going gold is THE WORST growth/military growth path. The way this is calculated is to calculate villager work times rather than rss and to calculate the savings for each path. Examples. 1. Going heavy on wood zer on gold in villager worktime can net you from 5 - 10 free villagers work time gold mining mins "once the wood is sold" The key here is" Profit margins" as it needs to be looked at as a trader profit rsther than "better prices" where yiu want to profit with "villager worktime" 2. Since wood bonus alone can run out fast, going wood and stone is a better option. Stone, it nets you minimum of 10 mins of vilkager eork time and allows your wood to net you 10 mins in total too. Downside between both strats is that solo wood will save the mining camp cost. So in other words, you get 20+ free mins of villager work time which if you try to laverage ti fast castle, saracens come in almost as fast as khmer "not there but close" my record as saracens FC is actually 13 mins and i am not even close to being a pro. There is also 5-10 mins of villager work time profit early castle age when you buy food "until there is no profit left"..so we are at 25-30 mins of free villager mins which you feel very well if you try to llay around it " you literally feel you have enough rss in a 13 mins FC to drop 3-4 tcs and doam vills with no downtime
+ I would have placed Berbers as A-S tier for some indirect reasons: - Stable units cost -15/20%. If you invest a lot in cavalry, it is a good eco bonus. - Camel units get healing per minute. More durable (specially camel archers), so you will spend less on them. + Bohemians B-A tier in 1v1, A-S tier in team: - Hussite reforms change monastery's gold cost by food. This is end game gold. - Those markets working 80% faster makes trade routes work earlier than enemy team. + Byzs have -25% trash units discount, that is always welcome, as well as monks healing rate +100% helping expensive units as cats to stay alive. So indirectly, I would have placed them C-B tier. + Dravidians B tier: - Barracks tech being 50% cheaper is a little help in saving food and gold. + Ethiop is fine. Just wanted to remind that team bonus: no stone cost on outpost (map control). + Goths and his awesome cheap infantry units is amazing from the start. + You should count Incas' villagers being affected by blacksmith upgrades (partially, just a little), for it gives them survivality in case of enemy raids. + Italians are B tier in 1v1 and A tier in team games at late games: - 15% discount advancing age is pretty decent. - 30% discount on university tech (crane) - After silk route, trade costs 50% less (huge point on team games). Im heading to work. See you all later. + Magyars are C-B tier: - They do not only have cheaper scouts, but free melee attack upgrades and a trash UU arter Corvinian army. - Also, killing predators with one hit is SOOOO COOL 11111. + Don't forget Mayans' cheaper archers and walls, too. + Portuguese's +25% faster research is good too. + Sicilians: there is no better eco thing than dropping a castle o your enemy's gold/stone 111111. +Spanish is B-S tier, depending on 1v1 or teams: - No gold cost on blacksmith upgrades - Nobody expects the Spanish inquisition (garanteing convertions saves many of those monks' lives 111). - Supremacyyyyyyyy.
These are not economy bonuses per se, they help you only when you need to make military but if it is a full boom situation the civ that has the better economy will be miles ahead. Hussite reforms is a terrible tech honestly, monks tend to fall off in lategame and the tech ends up being very rarely useful I would put them in A because I think that mining upgrades, Fervor affecting villagers and cheaper buildings make their boom extremely smooth.
@@Mattroid99 that's why I said indirectly. Sooner or later you will have to think about military. Focusing in eco only, then I agree with most of Ornlu's ranking.
@@jesusrubiomaldonado27 It is an indirect help for sure, is just that it doesn't always kick in and if that's the case their only bonus is the faster villagers. Even when you use it tho I don't think is A/S tier, there are much better discounts than theirs (Not to say is bad tho)
@@Mattroid99 that's why I place two ranks. Because it depends on many circunstances. Cavalry is used by many players to raid, further uses if that civ is specialised in cavalry. If enemy civ has a strong anti cav compo, then that bonus is situational (making light cav/hussar as meat shield for camel archers, for example).
Kshatryas is so powerful, if you spam shivamshas and camels from 3 stables (bc that is what this civ does) and after you researched Kshatryas you can keep up the same production and have then 1k food in less than 2 minutes later. pretty nice on an upgrade that itself doesnt cost food. its like having another gear available. I think Hindustanis should get 10% dark age bonus back, looks less nice on papaer but coems down to ~50 foor in dark age and that gets them out of the game a little faster and then they are fine. in 1v1 Spanish still feels like the eco is worse than Koreans. especially during the midgame. and that almost entirely their composition with SPniash beeing Food centered and Koreans basically couldnt make a food unit if they tried. Teutons still give me the feeling of beeing underexplored bc I see topplayer boom on 3TC with Monastery and Workshop and still somehow 400 wood floating. sadly nobody wants to play the slow units.
Don't forget the technologies. For instance, Dravidians have only 2 men saw (no mining uprgrades and no crop rotation), it's really bad. That's why I put Franks and Britons lower. Even more when you think that after the dark age, their boost is gone and they have nothing in long run games. One misses crop rotation, the other 2 men saw. That's also why Mongols should go to C tier. On maps with 203920 hunting preys ok but on normal maps no way. Also, you forgot the cheaper technologies in unversity for the Italians.
You should do moe tier lists and more frequently. Yours are awesome. Just kidding but very funny: Ornlu: „Units discounts dont count as an economic bonus…“ Also Ornlu: Mentions almost every unit discount and cannot ignore it. E.g. Chinese… How to consider stronger Vills (Spanish, Inkas) as an Economy Bonus aka Insurance? Khmer houses also kind of Insurance and Teutons extra hidding capacity. Same for Spanish faster and Mayans cheaper walling… Farming economy bonus are overrate.
Yup, byz and koreans discounts are a huge eco growth bonus. Saying ubits discounts don't count "cuz they don't affect growth " is a very bad misleading info for new players. 15 skirms and 5 spears gives koreans 350 wood sdvantage, like which civ ever gets this you know. Same for byzantines...
@@ryanforgo3500 The thing is when are you gonna make 15 skirms in an arena game during the boom phase? That's probably why Ornlu doesn't include that bonus. Ornlu probably includes Kshatriyas, Inca food discount and Porto Gold bonus because they're so all-encompassing that you don't have to boom as hard to sustain your final army comp.
I disagree slightly with the comment about folwarks being great 'all the way through to post-imperial'. Because when you have enough lumberjacks and and farmers working late in the game, after a while Poles' food income will reach a steady-state where it doesn't really provide any better income than generic. (Aside from that fact it is slightly more efficient due to the 3x3 size) If you plot out food income differential over time, I am confident the difference would approach zero.
Pretty good list. Where i disagree: Byzantines are c-tier imo. Imo the imp discount is about as nice as berber and bulgarien bonus. On top, Byz got both imp farm AND wood upgrade, which is pretty are and should count as long term eco bonus of the civ. And that is why, I see mongols as c-tier, as high as you like.Their bonus is strong in the early game, which is important, but gets irrelevant later. Also, mongols does NOT have both imp farm&wood upgrades, which makes late game somewhat weaker eco-wise.
I would actually put teutons into S tier in terms of economy, due to their double garison size for tcs and towers. I know, those 2 are technically not eco bonuses directly, but they are indirectly. For example, with other civs, especially when i had a really big boom, i had the issue several times already that when i had to hide my vills in a tc, that i ran out of garison capacity and had to leave some villagers unprotected. Not to mention that the increased number of villagers in a tc obviously also increases its attack power significantly. This means your opponent would be unable to kill units, which for other civs might have not fit in the tc anymore. In other words, you loose less villagers. The tower garison bnus on the other hand ensures that most likely if someone tries to push you away from important resources with a tower, you will be able to take out the offensive tower much more easily. This means, the chance of you getting pushed off something important like your main gold or stone is much lower. I hope this explains why i see those bonuses as eco bouses too.
Huge disagreement with Mayans. Extra 220 food in Dark Age along with 1 free villager the whole game is already top of A tier. On top of that they also get 112 extra food in Feudal Age and hundreds of extra wood from less reseeding of farms and lumbercamp throughout the game easily make them S tier. Also I'm sure you forgot their team bonus of cheaper wall which saves you noticeable amount of wood in Dark Age.
Civs that changed tier from Ornlu's last Eco Tier vid: (Disclaimer: I count Indians and Hindustanis as two seperate civs since I feel they are different enough for it) Berbers: D to C Goths: C to B Huns: A to B Incas: C to B Japanese: B to C Koreans: D to C Portuguese: C to B Spanish: C to B Vietnamese: B to A
Poor Huns and Japanese going backward without actually getting nerfed (I think?). Relatedly, the four civs ahead of Vikings are a trio of DE DLC civs and then Khmer's remote worker farms. Also shows, though, that the buffs to Port/Viets/Incas/Goths were more or less successful. Useage of the first three in particular also seems to bear this out, from my limited knowledge.
I think with these kinds of lists you need to be strict. I would entirely base my list on a game which is just economy units (booming) until you are pop capped. If you include discounts on units, you will take a path I dont like, since then you need to make units to 'save' resources, while your opponent may not need to spend anything on army. Also, if you include discounts, you should also include the tech tree of a civ. For instance, Slavs and Teutons may save more resources in a pure booming game than Inca's and Mayans, but the latter will probably spend their resources saved much more efficiently due to their cost-effective units.
My main civ is Poles and yes they do have a great economy but it needs to come with a caviet. In dark age your eco is generic as you wont be farming. In dark age celts, burgundians, Mongols and Lithuanians etc are better. Early feudal, vikings are better, but from mid feudal onwards then Poles are better than all. Maybe burgundians and khemer can match them.
I disagree with at least a few of these. Bulgarians I think should actually be ranked D tier and ranked after Byzantines where they are ranked last place and even after Magyars while Byzantines are ranked first place on D tier mainly because of the 33% cheaper research for reaching the Imperial Age despite not really having other economic benefits besides town watch and town patrol in addition to a few cheaper units (despite the fact that camels do not have a heavy camel upgrade from Imperial Age). While Magyars do not have 50% reduced upgrades from siege workshop for food, the Bulgarians also do not get any free upgrades either besides Militia Line which is only minor in comparison to the Magyars having three blacksmith upgrades that are free. Also worth pointing out the upgrades from Bulgarians only have a reduced price for food involving upgrades, but not for gold, stone (except for town centers only), and wood while the Bulgarian team bonus is mostly useless as well. I would also argue as well that Goths should actually be ranked number 1 from C tier instead of being included for B tier. They only benefit from hunting and cheaper barracks unit costs are overall nice, but how many animals on the map available for hunting (including fish, but only villagers benefit from this bonus and not fishing ships) and how much land is available vs. water varies in addition to depending on the map size as well and Goths do not get a civilization benefit from domestic animals and bushes either. Also, Persians do not deserve a place on A tier and should actually be 2nd place at best on B tier (after Hindustanis because I do not think they should be placed in A tier either, but ranked before Persians), because starting with 50 extra food and 50 extra wood being the only economic seems to be quite minor and while the town centers and docks are 20% faster could benefit the economy I still do not think it is good enough that Persians should be placed at A tier. The Spanish could also be placed on C tier as well at second place; although, them being ranked before the Italians when it comes to to the economy I think is debatable despite the fact their blacksmith upgrades do not cost gold. As for Italians I think that they actually should be ranked ahead of the Japanese and ranked at third place after the Goths and Spanish or even 2nd place because I would like to think that 15% cheaper for the next age would be much more beneficial than cheaper mining camps, mills, and lumber camps combined with the fact how much fish available for fishing ships also varies as well and the fact that 33% cheaper dock and university technologies could potentially be beneficial to the Italian economy as well. Last worth mentioning are the Romans where I think they should actually be ranked last place on the list, because that 5% economic bonus (gathering if I am not mistaken only includes bushes while for building and repairing that does not seem like much either) seems to be quite small and even with civilization benefits the scorpion is overall not very useful that can get killed easily by fast units and mangonels.
Why Malay is ahead of Bengalis when Bengalis is objectively better until mid Castle? And even after that. Bengalis have the opportunity to get more villager after reaching Imperial Age as long as they have 2 TCs. Is this because of cheaper fish trap with more food?
@@OrnLu_AoE I understand. Despite having villagers lead early, Malay stays behind in resources compared to Bengalis in Feudal and early Castle. So they are very close in land. And Malay fish boom is way better than Bengalis Team Bonus.
Bro i like you, no ill intent here. but YOU are very Wrong, it is important yo help new players not get the wrong idea. units WOOD and food discounts are the strongest eco bonus in terms of practical eco growth. You could calculate that basically by counting your saving. The only exception is fast FC strategies where unit discounts fail. Example, 20 defensive skirms-spears will cost 600-700 wood Koreans will save 300-350 of that and that's more of an eco bonus than any civ ever gets. Even celts don't compare. The average most common game REQUIRES this military investment too or you would be taken out before you hit casle or right after. So you either defensively use your discount or offensively force enemy to build troops. Either way your eco wins. This case works as well for byzantines too. In fact unit discounts are the STRONGEST feudal bonuses BY FAR. Weakest castle Bonuses BY FAR. Why? Because unit discounts bring zero value once counter units come in, but in feudal skirms+spears are not really easily countered.
Military discounts are not eco bonuses. They don't make you gather more, you simply spend less with specific strategies. If you don't have to make military (Like in a closed map, like Arena or Black Forest as pocket) then you have literally nothing. Celts will have 300 more wood to spend into farms, more buildings, units, less lumberjacks etc. Is a net plus regardless of the situation in the game. Koreans don't get these resources, they simply don't spend as many as other civs. Only really good when you have to make military but doesn't help economy (Res collected is still behind). Skirm/Spears loses to walls, is not a good comp when you can avoid engagements. Then in castle you will be super far behind
How are Bulgarians not D-Tier? Even with lower stonecost on the TC more often than not u got not enough wood to build more then 2 and grow a farming eco that can support 4-5 TC vill production. The bonus kicks in so late that bulgarians need to get military pressure on the map to slow down civs with stronger economy so thr wood is needed for production and siege, in my opinion a useless eco bonus cause u never can make use of it. Its more a defensive Bonus in post imp where u can drop TCs ro garrison your vills, but it doesn't grow ur eco
to put it another way, every key military and siege unit costs gold, including monks. This is like Chatryas, it has the same effect as an eco bonus - letting you do more with the civ across the game. Not only mass units but also switch techs or do more with less vills.
I think low A tier would be better, tho Feitorias aren't much of a thing until late Imp where gold and stone start to run dry (Or if you are going for a low eco approach). Another really good thing is the faster researched techs, faster Wheelbarrow and Handcart are a 1-2 vil lead
I'd vote to extend the cav archer discount to all their mounted units honestly. Since their stables work so much faster is hard to afford 2 stable production, extra TCs and villagers
Unit discount IS Eco bonus. Is this because if you have unit discount, you can have less vilagers than your enemy and still manage to have more resources and also maintain larger army.
Someone who puts Bengalis in A-tier has never boomed in pocket on a close map with them, gone up to 170 villagers, gotten Mahayana, and then spammed elephants.
I think cumans second tc is completely broken on certain maps (Pros never lose with cumans in hideout for example), Dont u think cumans second TC should be changed?
The Saracens' market bonus is kind of the opposite of the Huns' house bonus: it gives you more things to do when playing the civ, but it is potentially very strong.
If market is used correctly, it is s pretty good bonus, indeed.
@@jesusrubiomaldonado27 In a perfect game its a useless bonus because the market creates inefficiency. I'll tell you in another 22 years if I ever see a perfect game though, high elo players know to use the market to create timing windows and adjust for pressured resources, and low elo players use it to dump the 2k wood they aren't using but keep chopping. (I'm talking about myself in the 2nd example)
@@BirdMoose nah man its really good market bonus u can literally sell 100 food and 100 wood n the early to go castle instead of 200 wood or 200 food or even more for other civs just dont hoard stuff u dont need
Do infantry unit tier list next. It's been a while and with new civs I'd ve interested in seeing what changed. Unless of course you're waiting for the next expansion.
There will be a new expansion? I didn't know about that
With one civ with an apparently OP infantry after another (Romans and Armenians in primis, although things like Malays' free infantry armour (which had to be tempered by them losing Gambeson next patch) are also a concern) coming out, this comment have aged like wine.
Your bohemians logic is actually very, VERY well. I like that POV putting arabia result as a sign of how an eco is early is actually a correct way of measuring it.
For anyone curious, since it came out so close to this, Hera's video is only his picks for Top 5 but he also includes some "Honorable Mentions" as well as the symbols of several other civs jokingly expressing their disbelief at his #1 pick (suggesting they plus the HMs make up the rest of his S/A tier, so to speak):
HM: Britons, Celts, Burmese, Franks
Symbols who thought they should be #1: Khmer, Teutons, Poles, Hindustanis, Bengalis
5 - Burgundians
4 - Bohemians
3 - Vietnamese
2 - Romans
1 - Vikings
So the biggest points of contention between that and this are absolutely Bohemians (4th best vs 23rd) and Cumans (not mentioned vs 1B), followed by Malay+Chinese (S rank for Ornlu, not mentioned by Hera) and Burmese (Ornlu having them in B-tier)
10:22 "You are having 35% faster working lumberjacks" IIRC that's incorrect, Celts' bonus is multiplicative, therefore 1.15*1.20 = 1.38, i.e. 38% faster, not 35%
13:10 Heavily disagree with Cumans in S tier. Only for closed maps. Any sort of hybrid maps or Nomad, 2nd TC is way slower than extra Docks. And on Arabia you can look up Viper vs SayMyName (don't remember which tournament, but should not be hard to find). If Viper cannot get away with the Feudal TC vs a player that's not top 10, this is not a viable strategy.
22:50 Why bring up Khmer going FC without extra buildings on Nomad while simultaneously disregarding how terrible Cumans are on Nomad? Either count all maps or be consistent and not move the goalposts. Furthermore, this is 100% not S tier. as it's closer to what Bohemians or Burmese have, as it becomes worse compared to a generic civ like Byz as both get Wheel/HCart, you only farm +2.4% faster when both have Hand Cart, i.e. you eventually farm about as fast as Berbers...
35:11 Slavs. The opposite of Khmer - get stronger with wheel/HC (+10.1%/+10.8% over a generic civ). Therefore, should be in the same tier.
37:20 Tatars get 2 sheep with every new TC, coupled with their extra res from sheep bonus you get something like a farm with Horse collar worth of savings, e.g, 60% of the Britons' cheaper TC bonus, BUT you also get a massive +550 res in Castle Age from free Thumb Ring, and since 1v1 is a zero sum game, if you do eco damage to the opponent with your Archers you can count that as an eco bonus, since the point of an eco bonus is to get a better eco than your opponent.
The discount bonuses really boil down to how it's used. Whereas most gold bonuses are great at letting you pump out more units for the same eco, wood and food discounts let you sneak out some units while you're booming.
I think that's a misconception. You can just balance accordingly. Either you make more gold units or you have less on gold (and then more wood and food again). Total res is what matters.
@@Umdeuter i dont know, in theory that should be the case. But in reality you often run into situations where moving a vil form one resource to another not only costs you a few seconds of transfer time but also efficiency at the deposit. Most evidently for food production of which is capped by by how many farms you can afford in wood. Or to put it differently: if that were the case saracens would be D-tier until late imperial.
You missed the Bengali's team bonus. Doesn't really change much. You also missed some of the other trade-related eco bonuses (Bohemian's market works faster and Italian's silk road tech).
I had a random question. Why wasn't Romans included? I haven't watched the competitive scene for a while. Are they banned from tournaments?
Idea for the coming tier lists: blend in the civ your talking about in the top right corner, so we can read all bonuses while you're talking. Sometimes it's hard to follow if you don't play the game every day...
I know it’s not the focus but also consider the Chinese farm boost is a team bonus. A couple of the civs should get a small grade boost or consideration for this I feel like. Do agree that civ specifically has had the conversation around its eco/start changed a little, and probs overall a little less strong, but I’m no top 100 or anything so hard for me to say, just personal feel so far.
@ornlu, fun fact. All pros don't actually know how saracen work. You know that becausw mathmatically going gold is THE WORST growth/military growth path. The way this is calculated is to calculate villager work times rather than rss and to calculate the savings for each path.
Examples.
1. Going heavy on wood zer on gold in villager worktime can net you from 5 - 10 free villagers work time gold mining mins "once the wood is sold"
The key here is"
Profit margins" as it needs to be looked at as a trader profit rsther than "better prices" where yiu want to profit with "villager worktime"
2. Since wood bonus alone can run out fast, going wood and stone is a better option.
Stone, it nets you minimum of 10 mins of vilkager eork time and allows your wood to net you 10 mins in total too. Downside between both strats is that solo wood will save the mining camp cost.
So in other words, you get 20+ free mins of villager work time which if you try to laverage ti fast castle, saracens come in almost as fast as khmer "not there but close" my record as saracens FC is actually 13 mins and i am not even close to being a pro.
There is also 5-10 mins of villager work time profit early castle age when you buy food "until there is no profit left"..so we are at 25-30 mins of free villager mins which you feel very well if you try to llay around it " you literally feel you have enough rss in a 13 mins FC to drop 3-4 tcs and doam vills with no downtime
The way Ornlu says "Gu-jrrrrs" gets me every time.
He's saying it wrong
After playing The Witcher, "heavy plough" hits different
*Laughs in polish*
+ I would have placed Berbers as A-S tier for some indirect reasons:
- Stable units cost -15/20%. If you invest a lot in cavalry, it is a good eco bonus.
- Camel units get healing per minute. More durable (specially camel archers), so you will spend less on them.
+ Bohemians B-A tier in 1v1, A-S tier in team:
- Hussite reforms change monastery's gold cost by food. This is end game gold.
- Those markets working 80% faster makes trade routes work earlier than enemy team.
+ Byzs have -25% trash units discount, that is always welcome, as well as monks healing rate +100% helping expensive units as cats to stay alive. So indirectly, I would have placed them C-B tier.
+ Dravidians B tier:
- Barracks tech being 50% cheaper is a little help in saving food and gold.
+ Ethiop is fine. Just wanted to remind that team bonus: no stone cost on outpost (map control).
+ Goths and his awesome cheap infantry units is amazing from the start.
+ You should count Incas' villagers being affected by blacksmith upgrades (partially, just a little), for it gives them survivality in case of enemy raids.
+ Italians are B tier in 1v1 and A tier in team games at late games:
- 15% discount advancing age is pretty decent.
- 30% discount on university tech (crane)
- After silk route, trade costs 50% less (huge point on team games).
Im heading to work. See you all later.
+ Magyars are C-B tier:
- They do not only have cheaper scouts, but free melee attack upgrades and a trash UU arter Corvinian army.
- Also, killing predators with one hit is SOOOO COOL 11111.
+ Don't forget Mayans' cheaper archers and walls, too.
+ Portuguese's +25% faster research is good too.
+ Sicilians: there is no better eco thing than dropping a castle o your enemy's gold/stone 111111.
+Spanish is B-S tier, depending on 1v1 or teams:
- No gold cost on blacksmith upgrades
- Nobody expects the Spanish inquisition (garanteing convertions saves many of those monks' lives 111).
- Supremacyyyyyyyy.
These are not economy bonuses per se, they help you only when you need to make military but if it is a full boom situation the civ that has the better economy will be miles ahead.
Hussite reforms is a terrible tech honestly, monks tend to fall off in lategame and the tech ends up being very rarely useful
I would put them in A because I think that mining upgrades, Fervor affecting villagers and cheaper buildings make their boom extremely smooth.
@@Mattroid99 that's why I said indirectly. Sooner or later you will have to think about military.
Focusing in eco only, then I agree with most of Ornlu's ranking.
@@jesusrubiomaldonado27 It is an indirect help for sure, is just that it doesn't always kick in and if that's the case their only bonus is the faster villagers.
Even when you use it tho I don't think is A/S tier, there are much better discounts than theirs (Not to say is bad tho)
@@Mattroid99 that's why I place two ranks. Because it depends on many circunstances. Cavalry is used by many players to raid, further uses if that civ is specialised in cavalry. If enemy civ has a strong anti cav compo, then that bonus is situational (making light cav/hussar as meat shield for camel archers, for example).
Edition went crazy.
+ Turks also have free Chemistry and gunpowder researches cost 50% less (It saves 700f, around 450-500 gold and wood too).
Kshatryas is so powerful, if you spam shivamshas and camels from 3 stables (bc that is what this civ does) and after you researched Kshatryas you can keep up the same production and have then 1k food in less than 2 minutes later. pretty nice on an upgrade that itself doesnt cost food. its like having another gear available.
I think Hindustanis should get 10% dark age bonus back, looks less nice on papaer but coems down to ~50 foor in dark age and that gets them out of the game a little faster and then they are fine.
in 1v1 Spanish still feels like the eco is worse than Koreans. especially during the midgame. and that almost entirely their composition with SPniash beeing Food centered and Koreans basically couldnt make a food unit if they tried.
Teutons still give me the feeling of beeing underexplored bc I see topplayer boom on 3TC with Monastery and Workshop and still somehow 400 wood floating. sadly nobody wants to play the slow units.
However, capes will forever be fashionable 11.
Don't forget the technologies. For instance, Dravidians have only 2 men saw (no mining uprgrades and no crop rotation), it's really bad. That's why I put Franks and Britons lower. Even more when you think that after the dark age, their boost is gone and they have nothing in long run games. One misses crop rotation, the other 2 men saw.
That's also why Mongols should go to C tier. On maps with 203920 hunting preys ok but on normal maps no way.
Also, you forgot the cheaper technologies in unversity for the Italians.
I think hindustanis can be much higher in the A tier. Cheaper villagers imply faster resource collections, implying faster booms.
Koreans introduced twice because Ornlu knows so much about them (historically speaking)
Also surprised that Italians are so low, honestly. Especially if some civs are actually relatively high because if "in case of a water map".
lets goooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo!!! ty!!!!!!
You should do moe tier lists and more frequently. Yours are awesome.
Just kidding but very funny:
Ornlu: „Units discounts dont count as an economic bonus…“
Also Ornlu: Mentions almost every unit discount and cannot ignore it.
E.g. Chinese…
How to consider stronger Vills (Spanish, Inkas) as an Economy Bonus aka Insurance?
Khmer houses also kind of Insurance and Teutons extra hidding capacity. Same for Spanish faster and Mayans cheaper walling…
Farming economy bonus are overrate.
Will you Inc the ROR civs and Armenians and Georgians in a future tier list?
Is there any kind of statics about resources cathered in all games by Civs? I guess, Mayans might be one of the top catherers.
omg its orrrnnlluu
Cool Argonath background :)
You almost didn’t count Koreans wood discount and that would’ve been borderline criminal behavior 😂
Yup, byz and koreans discounts are a huge eco growth bonus. Saying ubits discounts don't count "cuz they don't affect growth " is a very bad misleading info for new players.
15 skirms and 5 spears gives koreans 350 wood sdvantage, like which civ ever gets this you know. Same for byzantines...
@@ryanforgo3500 The thing is when are you gonna make 15 skirms in an arena game during the boom phase? That's probably why Ornlu doesn't include that bonus. Ornlu probably includes Kshatriyas, Inca food discount and Porto Gold bonus because they're so all-encompassing that you don't have to boom as hard to sustain your final army comp.
I disagree slightly with the comment about folwarks being great 'all the way through to post-imperial'. Because when you have enough lumberjacks and and farmers working late in the game, after a while Poles' food income will reach a steady-state where it doesn't really provide any better income than generic. (Aside from that fact it is slightly more efficient due to the 3x3 size) If you plot out food income differential over time, I am confident the difference would approach zero.
Dravidians being down with Bulgarians and Berbers is straight bonkers 1111 otherwise great insight, nice vid
I could have added another tier to split C tbf
@@OrnLu_AoED+ basically as in "kind of vanilla"
I was quite disappointed when they nerfed the Chinese tech discount bonus. I really liked that bonus.
Pretty good list. Where i disagree:
Byzantines are c-tier imo. Imo the imp discount is about as nice as berber and bulgarien bonus. On top, Byz got both imp farm AND wood upgrade, which is pretty are and should count as long term eco bonus of the civ.
And that is why, I see mongols as c-tier, as high as you like.Their bonus is strong in the early game, which is important, but gets irrelevant later. Also, mongols does NOT have both imp farm&wood upgrades, which makes late game somewhat weaker eco-wise.
U gonna do one on aoe4 since it just released on xbox
I would actually put teutons into S tier in terms of economy, due to their double garison size for tcs and towers. I know, those 2 are technically not eco bonuses directly, but they are indirectly.
For example, with other civs, especially when i had a really big boom, i had the issue several times already that when i had to hide my vills in a tc, that i ran out of garison capacity and had to leave some villagers unprotected. Not to mention that the increased number of villagers in a tc obviously also increases its attack power significantly. This means your opponent would be unable to kill units, which for other civs might have not fit in the tc anymore. In other words, you loose less villagers.
The tower garison bnus on the other hand ensures that most likely if someone tries to push you away from important resources with a tower, you will be able to take out the offensive tower much more easily. This means, the chance of you getting pushed off something important like your main gold or stone is much lower.
I hope this explains why i see those bonuses as eco bouses too.
Huge disagreement with Mayans. Extra 220 food in Dark Age along with 1 free villager the whole game is already top of A tier. On top of that they also get 112 extra food in Feudal Age and hundreds of extra wood from less reseeding of farms and lumbercamp throughout the game easily make them S tier. Also I'm sure you forgot their team bonus of cheaper wall which saves you noticeable amount of wood in Dark Age.
You do have to consider that Mayan farms actually farm slower than generic, which is bad for booming.
@@unflushablepoo8243uh that's no longer an issue in DE. Mayans farmers are now working at normal rate.
@@CrnaStrela But the longer lasting ressources counts for everything EXCEPT farms, no?
Its Khmer farm works 5% slower. Mayans longer lasting res affects to everything, what villager can gather (ofc. exept relic and trade).
Civs that changed tier from Ornlu's last Eco Tier vid: (Disclaimer: I count Indians and Hindustanis as two seperate civs since I feel they are different enough for it)
Berbers: D to C
Goths: C to B
Huns: A to B
Incas: C to B
Japanese: B to C
Koreans: D to C
Portuguese: C to B
Spanish: C to B
Vietnamese: B to A
Poor Huns and Japanese going backward without actually getting nerfed (I think?). Relatedly, the four civs ahead of Vikings are a trio of DE DLC civs and then Khmer's remote worker farms.
Also shows, though, that the buffs to Port/Viets/Incas/Goths were more or less successful. Useage of the first three in particular also seems to bear this out, from my limited knowledge.
Where would you put the Romas? edit NVM :D
Sad to see my favorite civ at the bottom.
I think with these kinds of lists you need to be strict. I would entirely base my list on a game which is just economy units (booming) until you are pop capped. If you include discounts on units, you will take a path I dont like, since then you need to make units to 'save' resources, while your opponent may not need to spend anything on army. Also, if you include discounts, you should also include the tech tree of a civ. For instance, Slavs and Teutons may save more resources in a pure booming game than Inca's and Mayans, but the latter will probably spend their resources saved much more efficiently due to their cost-effective units.
My main civ is Poles and yes they do have a great economy but it needs to come with a caviet. In dark age your eco is generic as you wont be farming. In dark age celts, burgundians, Mongols and Lithuanians etc are better. Early feudal, vikings are better, but from mid feudal onwards then Poles are better than all. Maybe burgundians and khemer can match them.
I disagree with at least a few of these. Bulgarians I think should actually be ranked D tier and ranked after Byzantines where they are ranked last place and even after Magyars while Byzantines are ranked first place on D tier mainly because of the 33% cheaper research for reaching the Imperial Age despite not really having other economic benefits besides town watch and town patrol in addition to a few cheaper units (despite the fact that camels do not have a heavy camel upgrade from Imperial Age). While Magyars do not have 50% reduced upgrades from siege workshop for food, the Bulgarians also do not get any free upgrades either besides Militia Line which is only minor in comparison to the Magyars having three blacksmith upgrades that are free. Also worth pointing out the upgrades from Bulgarians only have a reduced price for food involving upgrades, but not for gold, stone (except for town centers only), and wood while the Bulgarian team bonus is mostly useless as well.
I would also argue as well that Goths should actually be ranked number 1 from C tier instead of being included for B tier. They only benefit from hunting and cheaper barracks unit costs are overall nice, but how many animals on the map available for hunting (including fish, but only villagers benefit from this bonus and not fishing ships) and how much land is available vs. water varies in addition to depending on the map size as well and Goths do not get a civilization benefit from domestic animals and bushes either. Also, Persians do not deserve a place on A tier and should actually be 2nd place at best on B tier (after Hindustanis because I do not think they should be placed in A tier either, but ranked before Persians), because starting with 50 extra food and 50 extra wood being the only economic seems to be quite minor and while the town centers and docks are 20% faster could benefit the economy I still do not think it is good enough that Persians should be placed at A tier. The Spanish could also be placed on C tier as well at second place; although, them being ranked before the Italians when it comes to to the economy I think is debatable despite the fact their blacksmith upgrades do not cost gold. As for Italians I think that they actually should be ranked ahead of the Japanese and ranked at third place after the Goths and Spanish or even 2nd place because I would like to think that 15% cheaper for the next age would be much more beneficial than cheaper mining camps, mills, and lumber camps combined with the fact how much fish available for fishing ships also varies as well and the fact that 33% cheaper dock and university technologies could potentially be beneficial to the Italian economy as well. Last worth mentioning are the Romans where I think they should actually be ranked last place on the list, because that 5% economic bonus (gathering if I am not mistaken only includes bushes while for building and repairing that does not seem like much either) seems to be quite small and even with civilization benefits the scorpion is overall not very useful that can get killed easily by fast units and mangonels.
Why Malay is ahead of Bengalis when Bengalis is objectively better until mid Castle? And even after that. Bengalis have the opportunity to get more villager after reaching Imperial Age as long as they have 2 TCs. Is this because of cheaper fish trap with more food?
Malay get the extra Vills a bit faster, and yes, the Fish Trap thing. Still, it's only a difference of 2 spots, so it's super close
@@OrnLu_AoE I understand. Despite having villagers lead early, Malay stays behind in resources compared to Bengalis in Feudal and early Castle. So they are very close in land. And Malay fish boom is way better than Bengalis Team Bonus.
I like Brytions
Bro i like you, no ill intent here. but YOU are very Wrong, it is important yo help new players not get the wrong idea. units WOOD and food discounts are the strongest eco bonus in terms of practical eco growth. You could calculate that basically by counting your saving.
The only exception is fast FC strategies where unit discounts fail.
Example, 20 defensive skirms-spears will cost 600-700 wood
Koreans will save 300-350 of that and that's more of an eco bonus than any civ ever gets. Even celts don't compare.
The average most common game REQUIRES this military investment too or you would be taken out before you hit casle or right after. So you either defensively use your discount or offensively force enemy to build troops. Either way your eco wins.
This case works as well for byzantines too.
In fact unit discounts are the STRONGEST feudal bonuses BY FAR. Weakest castle Bonuses BY FAR.
Why? Because unit discounts bring zero value once counter units come in, but in feudal skirms+spears are not really easily countered.
Military discounts are not eco bonuses.
They don't make you gather more, you simply spend less with specific strategies.
If you don't have to make military (Like in a closed map, like Arena or Black Forest as pocket) then you have literally nothing.
Celts will have 300 more wood to spend into farms, more buildings, units, less lumberjacks etc. Is a net plus regardless of the situation in the game.
Koreans don't get these resources, they simply don't spend as many as other civs. Only really good when you have to make military but doesn't help economy (Res collected is still behind).
Skirm/Spears loses to walls, is not a good comp when you can avoid engagements. Then in castle you will be super far behind
How are Bulgarians not D-Tier? Even with lower stonecost on the TC more often than not u got not enough wood to build more then 2 and grow a farming eco that can support 4-5 TC vill production. The bonus kicks in so late that bulgarians need to get military pressure on the map to slow down civs with stronger economy so thr wood is needed for production and siege, in my opinion a useless eco bonus cause u never can make use of it. Its more a defensive Bonus in post imp where u can drop TCs ro garrison your vills, but it doesn't grow ur eco
Portuguese S tier, B is just ...wrong mate. Gold discount across the board and Feutoris, plus insane opening .
to put it another way, every key military and siege unit costs gold, including monks. This is like Chatryas, it has the same effect as an eco bonus - letting you do more with the civ across the game. Not only mass units but also switch techs or do more with less vills.
I think low A tier would be better, tho Feitorias aren't much of a thing until late Imp where gold and stone start to run dry (Or if you are going for a low eco approach).
Another really good thing is the faster researched techs, faster Wheelbarrow and Handcart are a 1-2 vil lead
Isn't Malay strictly worse than Bengalis? Same vils but you need to pay for them. (Just more convenient to play because it creates power spikes)
Vote yes for Huns starting wood penalty to be reduced
I'd vote to extend the cav archer discount to all their mounted units honestly.
Since their stables work so much faster is hard to afford 2 stable production, extra TCs and villagers
The Byzantines have no eco to defend. 😢
Unit discount IS Eco bonus. Is this because if you have unit discount, you can have less vilagers than your enemy and still manage to have more resources and also maintain larger army.
Someone who puts Bengalis in A-tier has never boomed in pocket on a close map with them, gone up to 170 villagers, gotten Mahayana, and then spammed elephants.
I think cumans second tc is completely broken on certain maps (Pros never lose with cumans in hideout for example), Dont u think cumans second TC should be changed?
Huns in "High B Tier" & above Mongols to boot ... Ah would u stop! 🤦♂️
Vietnamese is on top of S-tier, similar to Burgundians but stronger. Poles is nerfed, it is number 2 now.
As a rule of thumb- the higher the tier economically, the worse the civ design is.
Poland being economical powerhouse just feels weird, even for purposes of relatively simple game. XD