I'm a pilot at Azul Linhas Aéreas, I fly the ATR. The issue, or origin of this incident, which was not the first, is that many pilots promoted in ATR come from much larger aircraft in the company, such as A330/350 and A320, where flare is much higher. It's all about adaptation. It is the price that the company pays for having different equipment.
I'm a mechanic technician at Azul, this aircraft PR-AKO has successfully done structural repairmanents at the tail cone, near QTU service door, and then put back into normal active service. Great video as always, Magnar!
Very nice explanation about the incident😊... Happened to me HARD Landing maybe 3.0 on GMeter landing when i was FO long time back...this time i learnt so much how to avoid hard landing that may consequence tail strike... 1) Vapp must be corrected 2) VSI 600ft/minute 3) PL TQ 20+-% each engine depends on weight,winds cond etc. 4) Centerline 5) Correct Flaring Technique initiate between 20 to 10 feet RA and then reduce PWR gradually till touch down...(by feeling and experiences) I just wanna share my 10cent suggestion for smooth ldg...🙏🏻
Very good explanation. I have many years experience on these aircraft along with instructing and examining of pilots. Pilots have to learn, it doesn’t mean they’re bad pilots. I have had two incidents where a trainee has flared a little high setting up a higher sink rate than normal, and yes, an increase in back pressure coupled with the sink rate has resulted in the tail bumper shoe scraping the runway momentarily. Nothing quite like this case, but close enough. Yes, relaxing the back-pressure just before the main wheels touch down does save the day and result in a much smoother touch down. But it definitely does not infer a bad pilot. They all have to learn.
The -72 is much more prone to tail strikes than the -42 not just because of a longer fuselage, but also because the main gear is farther behind the center of pressure on the wing. Thus, attempting to check a high decent rate (ostensibly at a low AOA) with pitch, only pivots the main gear lower increasing impact forces and in conjunction with a high pitch attitude, the likelihood of a tail strike. A flatter pitch attitude and lower flare while reducing power at touchdown is the best defense in avoiding high decent rates and using power instead of pitch for correction if a high decent rate develops. If it becomes marginal too long, a go-around is the best option. Good video.
Hahaha, Magnar is the reason they have a stand on the back, he always makes the passengers sit in the back then reverses and slams on the breaks, it's known as the Magnar wheelie.
Plot twist: The pilot flying worked for Ryanair before and wanted to show the pilot monitoring how they slam their aircraft down on the ground in his previous workplace. Just that the 737 has a little more tail clearance... (Sorry, I can't help it - every time I see a hard landing, my brain screams "Ryanair") Okay, I am just making this up, but what I am not making up is my admiration on how well you are able to analyze the situation just by watching a video, Captain! Great explanation - I think your videos should be mandatory to watch for all ATR pilots around the world... 😁
Ouch!🤕 That was indeed a botched landing. The poor Bird. According to what you can read in the net it is stored in Recife since this incident, so the damage must be somewhat greater. Thank you very much for the very informative explanation what happened.👍
Thanks for this good analysis And for addition First option Always go aroud Second one adding power helps to reduce vertical speed and hard landing Have lovely landings everyone
Thank you for another wonderful video Captain, like many others have said they’ve been invaluable in learning the ATR for MSFS. If you don’t mind the question, when preforming a localiser-only approach what mode do you use to reference your altitude (since GS obviously isn’t available.) I tried using the APP pb hoping to get V-FP but GS armed anyway and I ended up doing it in VS until transitioning to a visual approach once in VMC but I don’t think that sounds right?
To fly a localizer approach, you use LOC and VS modes. The navigation source is V/ILS. LOC mode is armed with the NAV pushbutton. To determine your position on the glidepath, you follow the DME/altitude table on the approach chart. As a rule of thumb, you descend 320 feet per NM. The location of the DME transmitter determines the DME reading over the runway threshold. A second rule of thumb: Your rate of descend is 5 times your ground speed. For example, when the ground speed is 120 kt, the rate is 600 ft/min.
And most important, add POWER to compensate for the loss of energy and bring your speed back to at least Vapp. This may result in a very high bounce, but you'll already be go around minded at this time and at least you'll save your tail! As you said, most importantly, if you're faced with a situation like this, GO AROUND, and try again! Would you agree with that, Capt?
Many thanks as always for your commitment to explain all the incidents and accidents as well as many other topics relevant to pilots. Would the explanation on this apply to Bombardier Q400? Or is it ATR specific?
It applies to all transport category aircraft, except taildraggers. For example, the auto landing system in a B737 lowers the nose when the main wheels are 1 ft above the ground.
Hello. For sure is not the best aircraft design. A very sensitive airplane to wind changes (horizontal and vertical) with an absurd low pitch angle landing limitation is a bad mix. Incredible but is a really good advice to do a go around in this “normal situation”. A lot better the ATR42
Hello Magnar, Can you record a flight tutorial in FS with ATR 72-500, please? There is an addon availible from FLIGHT1. It is from the same developer who made the ATR 72-600.
i did the same mistake with a hard landing in msfs 2020. if you turn off power at 50 feet or early then you might start thinking that you can glide down to the runway to make a butter. But this is only possible with light planes like cessna 152. Heavy planes like atr 72, airbus a320neo, boeing 747-8, etc they all need power down to the runway. I am usually trying to fly with power to 10-20 feet and only then disable the throttles. With a proper flare this is usually giving me 100-200 fpm at touchdown without bounce.
Are all landings being video'ed? If not, then it's amazing that this one episode of a poor landing was caught on video. Are tail-strikes on take-off common? I've done a few (on MSFS, not RW!) and now try to keep the nose up 5 degrees or less, though I find the slightest pull on the yoke can lift the nose to 20 degrees, so it has to be very delicate. Am I doing it right?
The ATR model in MSFS is not correct when it comes to tail clearance during takeoff. In the real aircraft, we rotate to 8 degrees and become airborne when the pitch is about 5 degrees.
@@FlywithMagnar I was thinking from a different type/model, where adding power did change pitch very significantly due to the engines being (in that case) significantly below the standard CG, causing a major Pitch-up motion... thought, with the high mounted engines of an ATR 72, that will work in reverse...
@@FlywithMagnar well, that's what I forget and I pull back to much, forgetting I'm in a long low rider. It's not always, mind you, and I don't do it in the 42 at all. I fly too many varieties of planes, so I forget the little nuances, when I come back to a plane that needs a bit of though. Cheers!
To avoid tail strike at takeoff, the pitch should not exceed 8 degrees. To avoid tail strike at landing, the pitch should not exceed 6 degrees. The value is less during landing because of the rate of descent.
Thi pilot,supposed to be graduated from the same flight school as russian Superjet100 pilot,Mr Evdokimov,who ruined the plane on landing at SVO,Moscow.A airplane is not a grasshopper.
I'm a pilot at Azul Linhas Aéreas, I fly the ATR. The issue, or origin of this incident, which was not the first, is that many pilots promoted in ATR come from much larger aircraft in the company, such as A330/350 and A320, where flare is much higher. It's all about adaptation. It is the price that the company pays for having different equipment.
It’s the price they pay to have bad pilots, they deserve to have it, considering the pilots they have, that’s why they pay poor salaries!
They go to the ATR to become Capt? I flew the ATR 72-500 and this aircraft doesn´t allow the crew to make mistakes when landing.
@@robertofreddyamorin7805 Yes.
that the price azul pay for having tiktokers instead of pilots….
how high is the flare height?
I'm a mechanic technician at Azul, this aircraft PR-AKO has successfully done structural repairmanents at the tail cone, near QTU service door, and then put back into normal active service.
Great video as always, Magnar!
Very nice explanation about the incident😊...
Happened to me HARD Landing maybe 3.0 on GMeter landing when i was FO long time back...this time i learnt so much how to avoid hard landing that may consequence tail strike...
1) Vapp must be corrected
2) VSI 600ft/minute
3) PL TQ 20+-% each engine depends on weight,winds cond etc.
4) Centerline
5) Correct Flaring Technique initiate between 20 to 10 feet RA and then reduce PWR gradually till touch down...(by feeling and experiences)
I just wanna share my 10cent suggestion for smooth ldg...🙏🏻
Very good explanation. I have many years experience on these aircraft along with instructing and examining of pilots. Pilots have to learn, it doesn’t mean they’re bad pilots. I have had two incidents where a trainee has flared a little high setting up a higher sink rate than normal, and yes, an increase in back pressure coupled with the sink rate has resulted in the tail bumper shoe scraping the runway momentarily. Nothing quite like this case, but close enough. Yes, relaxing the back-pressure just before the main wheels touch down does save the day and result in a much smoother touch down. But it definitely does not infer a bad pilot. They all have to learn.
The -72 is much more prone to tail strikes than the -42 not just because of a longer fuselage, but also because the main gear is farther behind the center of pressure on the wing. Thus, attempting to check a high decent rate (ostensibly at a low AOA) with pitch, only pivots the main gear lower increasing impact forces and in conjunction with a high pitch attitude, the likelihood of a tail strike. A flatter pitch attitude and lower flare while reducing power at touchdown is the best defense in avoiding high decent rates and using power instead of pitch for correction if a high decent rate develops.
If it becomes marginal too long, a go-around is the best option. Good video.
Indeed, exactly.
In case you don't know, Magnar always lands perfectly. It must be like nails on a blackboard for him to watch that tail-strike.
Hahaha, Magnar is the reason they have a stand on the back, he always makes the passengers sit in the back then reverses and slams on the breaks, it's known as the Magnar wheelie.
Plot twist: The pilot flying worked for Ryanair before and wanted to show the pilot monitoring how they slam their aircraft down on the ground in his previous workplace. Just that the 737 has a little more tail clearance... (Sorry, I can't help it - every time I see a hard landing, my brain screams "Ryanair")
Okay, I am just making this up, but what I am not making up is my admiration on how well you are able to analyze the situation just by watching a video, Captain! Great explanation - I think your videos should be mandatory to watch for all ATR pilots around the world... 😁
I was waiting for Ryanair...😄
@@NicolaW72 You're welcome!
I wonder what happens if a passenger actiually pays the "Soft landing surcharge".
@@Colaholiker How much? 50 €? 😄
@@NicolaW72 isn't tust what you need to pay to use the lavatory? I was thinking more like 500... 😂
@@Colaholiker Yes, of course!😅
Tack Magnar, skall prova som du föreslår !
Ouch!🤕 That was indeed a botched landing. The poor Bird. According to what you can read in the net it is stored in Recife since this incident, so the damage must be somewhat greater.
Thank you very much for the very informative explanation what happened.👍
Great video as always. Thank you Captain!
"Eita danado" is an brazilian slang for "f*ck!".
More like "Damn!"
Adding engine power to reduce the aircraft sink would also be an option I guess. I would have done it as a corrective action.
Thanks for this good analysis
And for addition
First option Always go aroud
Second one adding power helps to reduce vertical speed and hard landing
Have lovely landings everyone
Eita, danado!!!
Great stuff as usual. Cheers Magnar.
Thank you for another wonderful video Captain, like many others have said they’ve been invaluable in learning the ATR for MSFS. If you don’t mind the question, when preforming a localiser-only approach what mode do you use to reference your altitude (since GS obviously isn’t available.) I tried using the APP pb hoping to get V-FP but GS armed anyway and I ended up doing it in VS until transitioning to a visual approach once in VMC but I don’t think that sounds right?
To fly a localizer approach, you use LOC and VS modes. The navigation source is V/ILS. LOC mode is armed with the NAV pushbutton. To determine your position on the glidepath, you follow the DME/altitude table on the approach chart.
As a rule of thumb, you descend 320 feet per NM. The location of the DME transmitter determines the DME reading over the runway threshold.
A second rule of thumb: Your rate of descend is 5 times your ground speed. For example, when the ground speed is 120 kt, the rate is 600 ft/min.
@@FlywithMagnarThanks Magnar, very much appreciated ❤
And most important, add POWER to compensate for the loss of energy and bring your speed back to at least Vapp. This may result in a very high bounce, but you'll already be go around minded at this time and at least you'll save your tail! As you said, most importantly, if you're faced with a situation like this, GO AROUND, and try again! Would you agree with that, Capt?
Many thanks as always for your commitment to explain all the incidents and accidents as well as many other topics relevant to pilots.
Would the explanation on this apply to Bombardier Q400? Or is it ATR specific?
It applies to all transport category aircraft, except taildraggers. For example, the auto landing system in a B737 lowers the nose when the main wheels are 1 ft above the ground.
@@FlywithMagnar many thanks Captain...Great insight you give...God bless
Great video Captain, thanks!
Hello. For sure is not the best aircraft design. A very sensitive airplane to wind changes (horizontal and vertical) with an absurd low pitch angle landing limitation is a bad mix. Incredible but is a really good advice to do a go around in this “normal situation”. A lot better the ATR42
Помогите пожалуйста! В MSFS 2020 самопризвольно уходит стабилизатор и самолёт начинает резко набирать высоту, почему это может быть?
The explanation i agree. But in the of this video you showed a land out of touching zone, on this case wasn't better a go around?
Tail skid is directly under the rear F/A seat - must give them a bit of a fright when it hits.
Hello Magnar,
Can you record a flight tutorial in FS with ATR 72-500, please?
There is an addon availible from FLIGHT1.
It is from the same developer who made the ATR 72-600.
The Flight 1 ATR for FSX is 17 years old! Surely you mean the new ATR model for new Microsoft Flight Simulator, made by Hans Hartman and Microsoft?
Thanks!
i did the same mistake with a hard landing in msfs 2020.
if you turn off power at 50 feet or early then you might start thinking that you can glide down to the runway to make a butter. But this is only possible with light planes like cessna 152. Heavy planes like atr 72, airbus a320neo, boeing 747-8, etc they all need power down to the runway. I am usually trying to fly with power to 10-20 feet and only then disable the throttles. With a proper flare this is usually giving me 100-200 fpm at touchdown without bounce.
thanks master!
Are all landings being video'ed? If not, then it's amazing that this one episode of a poor landing was caught on video.
Are tail-strikes on take-off common? I've done a few (on MSFS, not RW!) and now try to keep the nose up 5 degrees or less, though I find the slightest pull on the yoke can lift the nose to 20 degrees, so it has to be very delicate. Am I doing it right?
The ATR model in MSFS is not correct when it comes to tail clearance during takeoff. In the real aircraft, we rotate to 8 degrees and become airborne when the pitch is about 5 degrees.
if you have the margin in terms of speed, would increasing the power help to rotate the nose down?
or does that cause more trouble than it's worth?
Changing power does not change pitch on this aircraft. But adding power will increase lift by increasing the airflow over the wing.
@@FlywithMagnar I was thinking from a different type/model, where adding power did change pitch very significantly due to the engines being (in that case) significantly below the standard CG, causing a major Pitch-up motion...
thought, with the high mounted engines of an ATR 72, that will work in reverse...
Eitaaa danadoo
For me it's the take-off in MSFS 2020, in the 72 only. You'd think I'd pay attention better, but.....
Can you control the tiller in MSFS?
The model in MSFS is not correct. There should be no tail strike as long as the pitch doesn't exceed 8 degrees.
Do you mean the Nose Wheel Steering tiller? No, you use the rudder pedals.
In my experience, the ATR 72-600 takes off practically by itself if you use the correct trim-setting. Perhaps that's the problem?
@@FlywithMagnar well, that's what I forget and I pull back to much, forgetting I'm in a long low rider. It's not always, mind you, and I don't do it in the 42 at all. I fly too many varieties of planes, so I forget the little nuances, when I come back to a plane that needs a bit of though. Cheers!
i paid 10 extra hours to fix the above problem before my first solo!!
I like your videos
what's the pitch input gonna tail strike the ATR
To avoid tail strike at takeoff, the pitch should not exceed 8 degrees. To avoid tail strike at landing, the pitch should not exceed 6 degrees. The value is less during landing because of the rate of descent.
Que vergonha ! Até os estrangeiros comentando as "barbaridades" dos pilotos brasileiros, a falta de proficiência, a imperícia !! Vergonhoso !
Youch! 😢
Thi pilot,supposed to be graduated from the same flight school as russian Superjet100 pilot,Mr Evdokimov,who ruined the plane on landing at SVO,Moscow.A airplane is not a grasshopper.
Landing three points!!
culpa do lito