That comment on how people always assume that autistic people are trying to manipulate them is SO true. I've been accused of being manipulative or passive-agressive over and over again when people assume the secret intentions of my words even though I just mean them literally. It's so frustrating, especially with those pop science videos saying, "Here's how to tell someone is selfish and evil!" and then they just list a lot of autistic traits.
This reminds me of those self-proclaimed body language experts. They assume body language is universal, and act like they can read people's minds just by looking at their poses and movements. Autistic people do not have the same mannerisms as allistic people, so this leads body language readers to assume autistic people are nervous, untrustworthy, or any number of negative traits. Body language experts are like Feng Shui practitioners, in that if you consult two different ones, you'll get two completely different answers.
What sucks is that I've also experienced this with some autistic people - they assume others lie to them bc that's what they're used to, even other autistic people, especially if one doesn't have an official diagnosis.
people in the modern era have no concept of diagnostic critera. you do not understand your own condition. you are likely not autistic, and are infact pretending to be so for social clout.
I like the discussion about how emotional manipulation isn't always a negative or harmful thing. Therapy is basically just a form of emotional manipulation, but it's one that greatly benefits a lot of people and improves their quality of life.
There is a concept in religion called the 4-14 window which is the idea that between the ages of 4 and 14 is when people are most "open to accepting Jesus" - in other words when they're most susceptible to the manipulation tactics organised religions use. Alot of churches don't even hide that, they preach about the 4-14 window as the ages it is most beneficial to get people into religion
Luke’s whole explanation here 35:44 perfectly described the manipulation my ex put me through and the way Cory picked up on how just doing the thing anyway was part of it made my brain go 🤯 And also oo sweet baby needs to be protected described it pretty well and is why it went over my head cause of the no shouting or direct threatening
watching the discussion on consent with emotional manipulation reminds me to look into anarchist takes on the feild of psychology: ive seen some discussions on whether or not forced hospitalization is abuse of power, if you can ever have no power imbalances in therapy, ect. as an anarchist and someone who wants to be a psychologist, i’m not sure where i stand yet.
It is complicated for sure, haven't read a lot about it, but you can argue from the anarchist pillar of solidarity, there's going to be power imbalances in any help given but when you need help with your ability to recognise and deal with an issue, like an addiction, it gets tricky but solvable case by case
Also I'd say like freedom in anarchism is supposed to be based on individual autonomy not absence if any boundaries, manipulation should be recognised and balanced as you do in an horizontal assembly where turns and pluralism are supported by rules to avoid charismatic people to take control
i don’t know if power imbalances could be absent in therapy as it is quite similar to a parental role in a lot of therapies, but i feel as though the idea of consent, and authority being given based on trust is absolutely essential
I was about 24 the first time I heard the term gaslighting and I was very confused to learn that that is in fact considered toxic and not how people are supposed to talk to you. That happened about a year after I stopped being in contact with my NPD parent. Thank you for this episode, this really helped as I have had a constant fear of being as manipulative as my parent was and this made me realise that intent is the key here.
The most bizarre and yet successful type of emotional manipulation I have encountered (and one that felt specifically targeted at my weak points) was someone that would outright say he was a monster and I should stop talking to him because he would never treat me right. And that... triggered the part of my brain that wanted to continue talking to him as kind of a way to prove him wrong? It was very hard to recognise it as manipulation because of this kind of weird "reverse psychology" effect.
In my experience most of the worst manipulation goes with lack of empathy because of outgroup dynamics, in social groups and relationships, and dehumanization perspectives in interested but healthy and somewhat moral people, more than personality disorders that are nowhere as common as manipulative behaviours
The economics thing makes a lot of sense, being for a white guy who just wants to be rich. I'm currently studying accounting and all the advice for making money starts with having money and then gaming the financial system to grow it.
Lmao my reasoning was just like Luke for a long time “why are people BAD? They MUST be hurt…awk that’s so sad…I wonder what their childhood was like, I should be nice.” Now I’m in my villain era. Enough is enough 😂 I’ve been manipulated. If I’ve manipulated people it’s unintentionally but I reckon I have.
i manipulate my neurodivergent boyfriend when he's procrastinating to get him to do thing he wants to do. Like he is a graphic designer so ill be like look i drew this i think we should use it on ur work, show me how to do it. Get him exited about teaching me how to do it and therefore getting him to and then afterwards he acknowledges exactly what ive done and says thanks. id say thats positive... hopefully however I have been manipulated badly so many times like when i was bullied and my mum emotionally manipulates me alot but then when i point it out is like what no id never do that and my bf and my mates have to affirm im not going crazy
Ive been reading stuff about psychopaths recently and the reason they always seem charming/friendly is because they want people to think well of them. But not because of the reasons you and me have. Psychopaths say its because they want people to trust them and look up to them so its easier to manipulate/control them and get stuff out of ppl. Ive been reading The Psychopath Test by Jon Ronson. I would recommend it!
For a person acting manipulatively to benefit others but not the target, LBJ's influence on Everett Dirksen to pass medicare is a strong case. LBJ told Dirksen that if they got Medicare passed that all the children would be taught about Dirksen and Lincoln for years to come. Dirksen believed this and helped get the votes for medicare to pass.
Gosh! I met so many manipulative people! I loved when Luke said "what's the point of being mean?", I asked myself this numerous times! I assume it's because they are mentally sadistic 😅. I'm autistic, and have become very wary of people... But always got on very well with those rejected by normies for being too blunt, like children. I like it when people just say what they mean and want right away, without roundabouts or sugarcoating. It's exhausting to try to understand what is going on in neurotypical brains, they are the embodiment of "second thought", and are unaware of it. This is why they suspect us of having hidden motivations too... spoiler : what we say is just what we mean 😁! It happened sometimes that I hurt the feelings of someone just by telling the truth, but I hate lying and am terrible at it. (does that dress make me look fat? Says the girl wearing a dress making her look fat... 🙄 Am I supposed to lie and let her embarrass herself? 😳 ) Sorry for the waffle, great episode!
Well easy to remember if you look up Machiavelli and Kafka (read the Process, kafkaesque is not about burocracy but that is a common source for the feeling)
Rome was a republic for 500 years and yes the two rulers were called consuls, they still had the senate and consuls into the imperial era but essentially they didn't have the same power and authority because the emperor assumed all the powers and titles of the top political and religious positions
Theres no doubt about it, psychological manipulation is life, We manipulate and are manipulated. For myself a negative connotation isn't a necessary part of the definition of psychological manipulation. We all know if our actions come from good or bad intent.
Cory talking about the poor little baby bird emotional manipulaion is a perfect description of the relationship between black people and specifically white women. In our society white women tend to be viewed as needing more protection than black people so in a conflit between either a black man and a white woman or a black woman and a white woman, people tend to take the side of the white woman regardless of context because of this emotional manipulation, whether or not it's intentional. While watching this I was wondering if that's why Cory was so stuck on this type of manipulation because it is very easily used in a way that harms him as a black man.
I think you can resign yourself to the world requiring a certain amount of Machevellianism to get anywhere.... And also choose to be and do better. We need to give ourselves more grace in terms of just being human and having slips and being crappy sometimes, and everyone else as well. Plus, try to understand perspective differences too. Have conversations with different kinds of people about human experience. It's useful. Means you can reach where they're at as people. We have to stop forgetting people's humanity.
I disagree about labor unions. I wish i wasn't forced to have their negotiations apply to me. I'd prefer doing my own and getting merit based raises. I could do better than they'll let me. What they want for me isn't what i want for me. I don't pay any dues and still their contracts apply to me. It's BS
I'm a Christian, but from a relatively liberal branch. Never have I ever heard anyone who I considered credible talk about hell as a real place when I was growing up, let alone a place you automatically go to if you don't believe in God. When Christians in my community do talk about hell or the Final Judgement at all, it's usually in a very spiritualized, psychological fashion. The real "punishment" is not some kind of eternal torture, it is looking back at your life and seeing everything you did wrong, everyone you hurt or failed, and realizing that you could have easily done better. Yes, conservative Christians do exist, and some of them believe and do awful things. But they are not representative of Christianity as a whole, let alone religion as a general concept. I don't think it's fair to make statements about "organized religion" in general based on one very specific subset of that group.
That comment on how people always assume that autistic people are trying to manipulate them is SO true. I've been accused of being manipulative or passive-agressive over and over again when people assume the secret intentions of my words even though I just mean them literally. It's so frustrating, especially with those pop science videos saying, "Here's how to tell someone is selfish and evil!" and then they just list a lot of autistic traits.
This reminds me of those self-proclaimed body language experts. They assume body language is universal, and act like they can read people's minds just by looking at their poses and movements. Autistic people do not have the same mannerisms as allistic people, so this leads body language readers to assume autistic people are nervous, untrustworthy, or any number of negative traits. Body language experts are like Feng Shui practitioners, in that if you consult two different ones, you'll get two completely different answers.
What sucks is that I've also experienced this with some autistic people - they assume others lie to them bc that's what they're used to, even other autistic people, especially if one doesn't have an official diagnosis.
Yes! Exactly!
@@sammalsikuri382899% of the time I think someone is lying based on similar situations in the past lol.
people in the modern era have no concept of diagnostic critera. you do not understand your own condition. you are likely not autistic, and are infact pretending to be so for social clout.
I like the discussion about how emotional manipulation isn't always a negative or harmful thing. Therapy is basically just a form of emotional manipulation, but it's one that greatly benefits a lot of people and improves their quality of life.
There is a concept in religion called the 4-14 window which is the idea that between the ages of 4 and 14 is when people are most "open to accepting Jesus" - in other words when they're most susceptible to the manipulation tactics organised religions use. Alot of churches don't even hide that, they preach about the 4-14 window as the ages it is most beneficial to get people into religion
Luke’s whole explanation here 35:44 perfectly described the manipulation my ex put me through and the way Cory picked up on how just doing the thing anyway was part of it made my brain go 🤯
And also oo sweet baby needs to be protected described it pretty well and is why it went over my head cause of the no shouting or direct threatening
I am so sorry you went through that. Augh. People learn that they can scate through life like that!
watching the discussion on consent with emotional manipulation reminds me to look into anarchist takes on the feild of psychology: ive seen some discussions on whether or not forced hospitalization is abuse of power, if you can ever have no power imbalances in therapy, ect. as an anarchist and someone who wants to be a psychologist, i’m not sure where i stand yet.
It is complicated for sure, haven't read a lot about it, but you can argue from the anarchist pillar of solidarity, there's going to be power imbalances in any help given but when you need help with your ability to recognise and deal with an issue, like an addiction, it gets tricky but solvable case by case
Also I'd say like freedom in anarchism is supposed to be based on individual autonomy not absence if any boundaries, manipulation should be recognised and balanced as you do in an horizontal assembly where turns and pluralism are supported by rules to avoid charismatic people to take control
In my opinion (doing a masters degree in clinical psychology at the moment) forced hospitalisation should just absolutely be a last resort
i don’t know if power imbalances could be absent in therapy as it is quite similar to a parental role in a lot of therapies, but i feel as though the idea of consent, and authority being given based on trust is absolutely essential
if you interject your politics into the treatment and diagnosis of patients you are inherantly violating the fundamental princaples of Hipocrates.
Ive been manipulated heavily and used to be a manipulator I am getting there but still working on it
I was about 24 the first time I heard the term gaslighting and I was very confused to learn that that is in fact considered toxic and not how people are supposed to talk to you. That happened about a year after I stopped being in contact with my NPD parent.
Thank you for this episode, this really helped as I have had a constant fear of being as manipulative as my parent was and this made me realise that intent is the key here.
The most bizarre and yet successful type of emotional manipulation I have encountered (and one that felt specifically targeted at my weak points) was someone that would outright say he was a monster and I should stop talking to him because he would never treat me right. And that... triggered the part of my brain that wanted to continue talking to him as kind of a way to prove him wrong? It was very hard to recognise it as manipulation because of this kind of weird "reverse psychology" effect.
In my experience most of the worst manipulation goes with lack of empathy because of outgroup dynamics, in social groups and relationships, and dehumanization perspectives in interested but healthy and somewhat moral people, more than personality disorders that are nowhere as common as manipulative behaviours
Love this episode it was really informative, i experienced emotional manipulation from parents and didn't know until I was a lot older
Luke at the like 18 minute mark explaining my life philosophy and then Cory shutting it down instantly… I guess I got some self reflection to do huh 😅
ngl this was a more existential episode that I thought it would be
The economics thing makes a lot of sense, being for a white guy who just wants to be rich. I'm currently studying accounting and all the advice for making money starts with having money and then gaming the financial system to grow it.
Lmao my reasoning was just like Luke for a long time “why are people BAD? They MUST be hurt…awk that’s so sad…I wonder what their childhood was like, I should be nice.”
Now I’m in my villain era. Enough is enough 😂
I’ve been manipulated. If I’ve manipulated people it’s unintentionally but I reckon I have.
i manipulate my neurodivergent boyfriend when he's procrastinating to get him to do thing he wants to do. Like he is a graphic designer so ill be like look i drew this i think we should use it on ur work, show me how to do it. Get him exited about teaching me how to do it and therefore getting him to and then afterwards he acknowledges exactly what ive done and says thanks.
id say thats positive... hopefully however I have been manipulated badly so many times like when i was bullied and my mum emotionally manipulates me alot but then when i point it out is like what no id never do that and my bf and my mates have to affirm im not going crazy
Ive been reading stuff about psychopaths recently and the reason they always seem charming/friendly is because they want people to think well of them. But not because of the reasons you and me have. Psychopaths say its because they want people to trust them and look up to them so its easier to manipulate/control them and get stuff out of ppl.
Ive been reading The Psychopath Test by Jon Ronson. I would recommend it!
For a person acting manipulatively to benefit others but not the target, LBJ's influence on Everett Dirksen to pass medicare is a strong case. LBJ told Dirksen that if they got Medicare passed that all the children would be taught about Dirksen and Lincoln for years to come. Dirksen believed this and helped get the votes for medicare to pass.
Where is the link to the machiavellian personality test? 😭
Right 😭😭😭
Look for dark triad test
Gosh! I met so many manipulative people! I loved when Luke said "what's the point of being mean?", I asked myself this numerous times! I assume it's because they are mentally sadistic 😅.
I'm autistic, and have become very wary of people... But always got on very well with those rejected by normies for being too blunt, like children. I like it when people just say what they mean and want right away, without roundabouts or sugarcoating. It's exhausting to try to understand what is going on in neurotypical brains, they are the embodiment of "second thought", and are unaware of it. This is why they suspect us of having hidden motivations too... spoiler : what we say is just what we mean 😁!
It happened sometimes that I hurt the feelings of someone just by telling the truth, but I hate lying and am terrible at it. (does that dress make me look fat? Says the girl wearing a dress making her look fat... 🙄 Am I supposed to lie and let her embarrass herself? 😳 )
Sorry for the waffle, great episode!
Well easy to remember if you look up Machiavelli and Kafka (read the Process, kafkaesque is not about burocracy but that is a common source for the feeling)
Oh Luke & Cory I totally agree with that point...
Rome was a republic for 500 years and yes the two rulers were called consuls, they still had the senate and consuls into the imperial era but essentially they didn't have the same power and authority because the emperor assumed all the powers and titles of the top political and religious positions
37:55 You're talking about knifes vs daggers/swords?
Theres no doubt about it, psychological manipulation is life, We manipulate and are manipulated. For myself a negative connotation isn't a necessary part of the definition of psychological manipulation. We all know if our actions come from good or bad intent.
Good thing that I trained myself to spot it miles away... And run in the opposite direction 🗣️➡️
im both a manipulator and been/is getting manipulated, like most people i think
Cory talking about the poor little baby bird emotional manipulaion is a perfect description of the relationship between black people and specifically white women. In our society white women tend to be viewed as needing more protection than black people so in a conflit between either a black man and a white woman or a black woman and a white woman, people tend to take the side of the white woman regardless of context because of this emotional manipulation, whether or not it's intentional. While watching this I was wondering if that's why Cory was so stuck on this type of manipulation because it is very easily used in a way that harms him as a black man.
I think you can resign yourself to the world requiring a certain amount of Machevellianism to get anywhere.... And also choose to be and do better. We need to give ourselves more grace in terms of just being human and having slips and being crappy sometimes, and everyone else as well. Plus, try to understand perspective differences too. Have conversations with different kinds of people about human experience. It's useful. Means you can reach where they're at as people. We have to stop forgetting people's humanity.
mackie of alienism lmao xD
Emotional Redirection lol
I disagree about labor unions. I wish i wasn't forced to have their negotiations apply to me. I'd prefer doing my own and getting merit based raises. I could do better than they'll let me. What they want for me isn't what i want for me. I don't pay any dues and still their contracts apply to me. It's BS
57:52 oh shit
I like this video
I got a 48
I'm a Christian, but from a relatively liberal branch. Never have I ever heard anyone who I considered credible talk about hell as a real place when I was growing up, let alone a place you automatically go to if you don't believe in God. When Christians in my community do talk about hell or the Final Judgement at all, it's usually in a very spiritualized, psychological fashion. The real "punishment" is not some kind of eternal torture, it is looking back at your life and seeing everything you did wrong, everyone you hurt or failed, and realizing that you could have easily done better. Yes, conservative Christians do exist, and some of them believe and do awful things. But they are not representative of Christianity as a whole, let alone religion as a general concept. I don't think it's fair to make statements about "organized religion" in general based on one very specific subset of that group.
I grew up woth narcissists .. i h8 narrsisicsts