@@sikelelaklaas4687 And you tube commenters. And X. And diet. And fate. And destiny. Oh, I am sure Jordan himself could tell us many things that he doesn't understand. He's okay with that he will learn more because he knows he doesn't understand. You who think you know and rest in your knowledge? You should be very, very, very concerned for your ignorant, self satisfied, finger pointing selves. At the very least you break your arms patting yourselves on the back! God bles. God bless us every one!!
Grace is Jesus. Jon's first words of Christ were Grace AND Truth, not the other way around. Jesus is Grace and is calling Jordan. Jordan knows this and God is infinitely patient. God's perfect timing. Rejoice the living God, Jesus, whose spirit is here to share with the world through Jordan. Jordan has helped save many people and Jesus knows it
The world has already beaten them down, or else they would purge 1) modern love, 2) queerdom and 3) queer marriage. So much for a Merry Christmas! How even can they experience the happiness of Sacrifice like the Dr. is talking about when they won't even give up their selfish, vile, perverted Pride and their Fake Virtue, just to save their souls?? Knowing what gender and marriage is like everyone does, then deciding to live a pathological lie where it's "no big deal" to use "pronouns" or else directly lie about gender and marriage to save a cold and hedonistic pervert from being "offended" is as far from the spirit of Christian Sacrifice as you can get! So much for a Merry Christmas when everyone will have to have THAT on their conscience to the end of their days and beyond death!
I view capitalism as the economics of sacrifice. The value of anything is determined by what I am willing to sacrifice for the sake of obtaining it. By that standard, we begin to understand the love God has for humanity through offering His only begotten Son for us. In light of that sacrifice, the only proper response is the 1st and greatest commandment,"You shall love the Lord your God with all Your heart and all your soul and all Your mind."
Name one man or woman, alive or dead, getting born again because someone told them they need to. You are a fool that even Mr. T wouldn't pity! God bless. God bless us every one!!
One of the greatest sins against Reason is unwarranted assumption... and Right Reason must proceed from the Light, not the other way round, for The Light proceeds from the transcendent God, but Reason proceeds from Man.
Please Lord God - I bring Prof Peterson to you. Please motivated christians to pray for him. That christ is formed in him and that he finds the one who is the truth. God this is my sincere prayer. Look after this man
"It stands to reason that where there’s sacrifice, there’s someone collecting sacrificial offerings. Where there’s service, there’s someone being served. The man who speaks to you of sacrifice, speaks of slaves and masters. And intends to be the master." -- The Soul of A Collectivist, Ayn Rand
Yeah... that just isn't a good argument at all by Rand. What is the middle term in the argument to move from the major premise, that there is someone collecting the sacrifice, to the conclusion that this intends to convey a slave relationship. This quote begs the question through a qualitative equivocation of sacrifice with the second example of service meaning to convey they are one and the same or at least analogous enough to reference them together. That makes absolutely no sense. Sacrifice in the example of the geneticist given in this clip sacrificed herself to her work and to the potential outcomes of what may be produced. What happened, as is the case with all action, there were unintended consequences which happened to be profoundly positive. So who would be the slave and who would be the master in this scenario? She might well have been serving some notion of contributing to science but surely we recognize the dynamics of service and that of slavery to be profoundly different. All Slavery is service but not all service is slavery. So the introduction of the use of the term service does nothing to move from the initial statement to the conclusion. If her work was the master then that would seem odd given no agency can be attributed to an instrumental cause but was merely a means to an end. And this end may well have been her end! She can't be the master and the slave for obvious reasons. So where should we go from here? This is incredibly reductionistic to argue that all sacrifice entails a slave/master relationship. Perhaps someone holds the conviction that to do X is good and to fail to do X or even to do non-X, is wrong. If that agent acts to uphold their conviction that they must do X at whatever cost, then the desire to act has nothing to do with an offering to be collected and no other agent is involved in the choosing even if someone else benefits particularly when the sacrifice is done voluntarily. I find no examples of voluntary slavery! There must be some relational predicate or power structure to infer what you did by providing the Rand quote where no volitional agency was acted on. In other words, who is the slave in the paradigm given by Rand? Who collects? If a parent sacrifices and works 2 jobs to make sure their kids have food and opportunity, are we honestly to say the parent is a slave to their children? I don't think you thought through the implications of what you were saying in context to the clip above.
@EveryHappening Rand tends towards long form writing. This is just a punchy paragraph getting to the meat of the matter. In other places (for dozens of pages at a time), she explains she does not consider hard work towards a goal to be sacrifice. This is done with similar logic to why voluntary things are not sacrifice. Under altruism, the more one gains, the lesser the sacrifice. With true sacrifice (true alturism) being action that purely benefits others. So if it's voluntary, it's a benefit to you, (since it is something you desired) and thus not a sacrifice. Or at least a lesser one. So hard work to gain something, is definitionally "selfish" and thus not an altruistic sacrifice. Likewise, giving up something you like in order to take care of your children is not a sacrifice. In fact it's more selfish than giving up your children's well-being in favor of perfect strangers, and so is not perfect (lesser) altrusim. This is the framework she is working from. Sacrifice is giving up something of value (to you) for the benefit of something of lesser value (to you). Edit: The Cain and Abel story without the metaphorical re-interpretation is a perfect illustration of the point. They sacrifice food by destroying it, the one who loses the better food is deemed the more moral. But what does a God need with burnt food? Doubly, so if there is no God. Metaphorically, harder work has greater rewards (more pleasing to god), but they literally destroyed their hard work for the (hypothetical) enjoyment of someone who demanded it of their servants. For no personal benefit, other than staving off punishment.
@@ttthttpd I get that Rand writes in long form... I am pretty sure that is the definition of a book. SO of course the argument is nuanced but I am just curious why that would be the quote you would use when it would take so much to explain why it isn't question begging? Because it most certainly is. As is much of Rand's moral theory I was going to write more but given your comment that neglecting your kids for personal gain is less selfish than to sacrifice yourself for their gain is the sort of incoherent drivel that anyone with two bits of common sense recognizes as wrong. And not just wrong, but the sort of evil which only exists among the ivory tower of academic elites explaining away goodness to protect theories obfuscating their responsibility to a transcendent purpose. This isn't simply just having been wrong as if you erred merely in degrees but that your mistake is so grievous that to have said nothing at all would have been exponentially better than to have said anything. To be so hopelessly and myopically committed to something that foolish should shock me but it doesn't- first year philosophy students never do any more. it is one thing to say God doesn't exist. Knock yourself out, But to marginalize the sacrifice of single moms trying to raise their kids as though this were an act of selfishness while purportedly claiming neglect is morally preferred is something only a philosopher or a maleficent person might say. I hope you will one day see the utter insanity and impossibility of that position. Given our society, I highly doubt this. I will not engage with you again or read your response. I would rather have my toenails pulled.
@EveryHappening You clearly didn't read, or let your own biases rewrite what I wrote. I said nothing about neglecting your kids for your own benefit. I said doing so FOR THE BENEFIT OF OTHERS is less selfish than caring for them. Caring about your kids IS MORE SELFISH than caring about OTHER people's kids. Do you get it yet? Edit: Here's a direct quote showing what I mean: "If you own a bottle of milk and give it to your starving child, it is not a sacrifice; if you give it to your neighbor’s child and let your own die, it is."
@@ttthttpd you stated it so poorly that your intent didn’t come through… not in the least bit. If it had been as clear as the source material quoted, it would have been easily discussed. There was no imposition of bias. It was an honest interpretation of an atrocious restatement! Why not just quote Rand? Moreover, your example does more to prove how narrow and restrictive objectivism is. It is unable to deal with moral dilemmas and reduces such dilemmas to retain a false dichotomy with no possible alternative. There are many nuances to determine what would be or wouldn’t be sacrificial.
As someone who was raised fundamentalist evangelical and is now ecumenical and liturgical, I know intimately how tribal we Christians can get. I don’t want Jordan and Tammy Peterson, who are dear to me, to be hurt by that tribalism. Insight from Tammy that I felt was convicting was that Dr. Peterson feels very uncomfortable when people ask him about his faith because he can sense that the motives aren’t always pure. Often the questioner wants to be the one to lead Jordan Peterson to Christ or to be the one who gets Jordan Peterson to confess his Christianity, and the motive is self-serving and the love for Jordan Peterson, the human being, the brother for whom Christ died, isn’t there or is feigned. And that troubles him, Tammy says. So I think we Christians need to let Jordan Peterson be where he is on his journey with the Lord and leave it with the Lord. I also know that Dr. Peterson, although he shares a great deal openly, is a very private person. If he says he doesn’t feel ready to openly discuss such a private matter as his faith journey, I think we need to respect and honor that. Because we don’t know where he is and it isn’t any of our damn business. God knows where he is and God is using Jordan and Tammy Peterson mightily. That should be enough for us.
That is a fair point... It's just that True Christianity demands more than that, to be a follower of Christ is definitely a very public affair, look at how He suffered, we are encouraged to follow on His footsteps, that includes a lot of suffering... This path is very public and painful, I do hear your words and I respect them.
Some of us see the story of the crucifixion of Christ not as a sacrifice of substitution, but as the ultimate example and embodiment of the need to be willing to sacrifice not only our ego, but our very lives, in our otherwise feeble effort to align ourselves with the transcendent morality we know as God, and the basis for the compassionate forgiveness of our sins, and the sins of others.
The Good Shepherd motif is woven throughout the OT (God). Jesus claimed to be the Good Shepherd, who lays down His life for the sheep. The sacrificial system was a temporary institution that dealt with sin in an incomplete way - it was temporary, and points to Christ's sacrifice, the Lamb of God, come to take away the sins of the world. I don't think you're doing yourself any favors by not facing this directly, but you are free to believe what you want.🙏🏻
As long as Peterson will adhere to jungian categories, he will not be able to understand the God of the gospel or the Gospel of God. When he, interpreting the Pietà of Michelangelo, expressed the Roman Catholic doctrine of Mary's "sacrificing" her Son , Lennox could and should have helped him see the erroneousness of that doctrine, thus the utter uniqueness of Christ's sacrifice in our stead.
"Transhumanist engineering." Is he referring to the practice of cryonics? I am skeptical, but they've found microorganisms that were frozen for thousands of years that were revivified.
Thank you for the doing this Discussion on sacrifice. I know I certainly appreciate that you both took the time to debate this. It was very well done, you both made it easy to follow. I really wish you had brought someone on with you both that could debate this from the darker perspectives of the word and intention behind it. Maybe In a more dualistic manner to gain perspective from both sides, so it could be seen in a less biased way. Utterly clueless to me, would be thinking that it was OK back in the day when parents were to sacrifice their own children! That was no small act! the value of human life would barely exist in circumstances such as this! No wonder women have abortions without guilt these days. The value of human life has diminished exponentially in my lifetime. Even then- they knew sacrifice was wrong! But there was a lot more going on then any of us will ever actually know. So if we don’t look for the answers. We remain clueless. The history behind their actions has more to do with the evil intentions of other humans. There were people who did this without a conscience, so I’m not saying they were innocently led to murder their own children. That’s a contradiction anyway. There were other gods, many of them required human sacrifice, or so they were told by their priests of their day! this contradicts the loving God that hates murder. But you said that the Bible says God requires sacrifice. So if God hates murder as stated also in the Bible. Why would God want us to kill a human in the name of God? You would have to be able to be open to the fact that the Bible was put together in a very confusing way from ancient epics Egyptian and historical jewish text, original cuneiform text and codex. It’s not that it isn’t true or accurate it’s pieced together and there is so much that is missing from it. Hence it’s many contradictions. Sacrifice is murder that’s what sacrifice is! It’s also a satanic word. Words are spells. it’s murder! God does not want us murdering our children! Better for you an-albatross be tied around your neck and cast into the ocean than to harm a child . I believe that would include sacrifice. For Example: I had children and I worked hard my whole life. I didn’t make it easy on myself because I was a single mother, but I always worked to take good care of my children. I was the only parent they had growing up. I can honestly say I never sacrificed anything but I can honestly say that I GAVE’ “my life to make sure my kids were OK. Regardless of my own needs and comforts. I believe that when you give your life, and your life force there is always a blessing in it. But when you see it as a loss and sacrifice it is a curse. The word sacrifice is actually a satanic word. It has a lot of darkness attached to it. One of the reasons I don’t like using it is because of the connotation that is associated with this word. of it is so negative. I think if we approached selfless acts as “giving” of oneself to include one’s actual life, even in the sense of giving, it’s a much better prospect in my mind then it would be to lose my life so someone else could benefit from the loss of my life. . This word is directly correlated with human sacrifice, which is human death. I really found the Cain and Abel explanation, well thought out and easy to understand, but at the same time once again, God required the death of some being, which is once again… A sacrifice” the loss of life to satisfy God?, but the Earth in which he created a garden for people to grow food out of was not good enough? Has anyone ever wondered why the very plants God them to eat wasn’t good enough? God, wanted a life to be taken. and food that was given to his children was not good enough. I feel like this could’ve been better explained on my part but it’s already a letter. This topic is very important because I believe human beings would value life more if they understood that they were valued by there creator. I struggle with the whole word, and it’s connotation, I feel like there’s just so much confusion there and it’s also so negative that I don’t know how anyone could see it in a positive light. It makes a world of difference when you say I gave my life as opposed to saying I sacrificed it, but I guess that depends on whether you worship sacrifice or not. I know it sounds like I’m being rude and I don’t really mean to be, I just recently wrote a poem about this and I have had conflicts with it and I know why it’s being discussed so I felt like it was an opportunity to explain myself a little better. I believe in giving my life but I do not believe any human should engage in the ritual of sacrifice for anyone. Always give and give gladly! And the glory goes to the creator! Thank you.
Well then purge 1) modern love, 2) queerdom and 3) queer marriage. Since you already know how deep the problem is with people in the world today, don't lose your soul by not acting! You seem concerned about having Blessings and avoiding the Curses that come when you forfeit Blessings, so don't do go ruining your OWN soul to be like everyone else!
@@ForGlory I am not really concerned with either. But I do believe in God very much. It took forever for me to learn not to obsess over curses. Lol. People have a way of reinforcing such things. I’m grateful. I know God has me. I have no desire to be like anyone else but me. Thanks for the good advice.
@@TheDetectiveJ Yeah when someone says, "I'm American the first thought that springs to your mind is "Argentinian.'" Right. Sell it somewhere else, buddy.
The comments section of this video in itself speaks to the value of this video and JBP conversations in general. We need to push through the superficial & metaphorical constant in our daily life today, and be more in tune with the reality of living, which such videos call us to. Thanks for all you do JBP, your impact and sacrifice is felt all the way out here in Cameroon. God bless.
There is much I have endured and suffered in life. The worst was when engulfed in the web of a mighty terrible and ferocious metaphor. Constant and continual was he, ever building his horrible web fashioned after the pattern of the notorious trapdoor spider, who has engulfed mighty ships at sea into the abyss. But far grander and more terrifying this even swallowed the mighty leviathan!! I know not how, but God's grace I am here. The superficial we can handle. It's the dragons who would devour us with those metaphorical constants. The variable constants offer relief with their ebb flow. Stay safe!!
Human beings shouldn’t have to be told by a god to “sacrifice”. That’s just “common sense” because self-sacrifice is a necessity in order to sustain civilized social groups. And that’s one thing wrong with capitalism. It doesn’t require sacrifice for the sake of society. Capitalism emphasizes self-interest and not self-sacrifice. It’s shameful that grown humans have to be instructed by god to sacrifice. It should be part of being a member of a civilized society.
And evil people are manipulative and they prey on this need for sacrifice. People are willing to kill and sacrifice the Son of God, aren't they? If society is evil, make no sacrifice to it or for it. It's no different than sacrificing to the other gods
You’re assuming people sacrificed the “son of god”. It may be “true” that a Jesus (street preacher) was crucified by ancient Romans. But there’s a Huge difference between crucifixion of a moral man and the “son of god”. First off… your belief in god is NOT based upon Any evidence there exists such a being. What you believe is what you’re been told by other. And it’s very likely those same people also had no proof of god. Secondly, you don’t have any evidence other than the ancient words of strangers of which you know nothing about. Face facts… you believe because it helps you cope with the real world. Religion gives people a sense of security and even promises things it can’t deliver such as “life ever after”. It all comes together to form a spiritual security blanket even though no one can produce evidence biblical events actually happened.
(Hosea 6:6) For I desired mercy, and not sacrifice; and the knowledge of God more than burnt offerings. "mercy" in that verse means "loving kindness". What GOD wants from us is our love, AND to have knowledge of HIM. What Christianity is ALL about is "Walking In The SPIRIT". If you are interested in what it means to walk in THE SPIRIT, let me know. I have a post on it.
You are confusing the matter, Abel's sacrifice was accepted because it was offered by faith... Hebrews gives a brilliant context and application for that Genesis narrative.
So does this end the evangelical vs. Latter Day Saint debate about God wanting our faith and our works to be saved thru his grace? Just stirring the pot, no offense meant 😊
@@amyrenee1361 just curious what revelation. And I’m guessing that Jesus would want us to be kind to everyone, even pray for those who despitefully use us. The parable of the Good Samaritan comes to mind. One was busy judging and the other was busy serving others. You are most likely a great Christian and have herd a lot of anti Mormon stuff your whole life. I would invite you to attend a meeting or read the Book of Mormon and see for yourself. Hope you have a great day and thanks for responding.
You will not get the point of sarificing/ to be sacrificed!?; cause you sacrifice the things that not belonging toyou! If you sacrifice!!! Can you sacrifice your Ego/I am??? This is the point! 'to be or not to be!' is equal to 'to have or not to have!' my last words for the moment! You are smart! Think about this When you say ' I do not have anything!' , you are with me, in Oneness' Love, needs alot brainstorming!
I was thinking about sacrifice... if we are called to sacrifice for future generations... is there an argument to be made that we should let covid wipe out the weak? If we agreed to let the weak die and survival of the fittest would strengthen the people living 10 000 years from now. Sounds ridiculous, but in what way (in regards to modern medicine) are we being selfish? What way are we sacrificing for future generations? Putting 50% of our GDP into research to cure cancer could seem like a great sacrifice... but maybe a better sacrifice would be to find the causes of cancer and work to change our lifestyle to eliminate cancer. Maybe work on vaccines is a sacrifice.... but maybe a better sacrifice is letting weak people die. I'd bet we would have zero fat people if that was our strategy. I'm just thinking out loud. Not that I nessacarry believe this
Proper sacrifice is voluntary and individual. A person deciding that a weak person should die it's not proper sacrifice, there's no respect for the victim's will there, the victim didn't decide it. By violating their will, you disregard their intrinsic value. And it's a luciferian pretention to think you know better, that because you think you understand the future, you decide who lives and who doesn't. It's the same problem with the people that started shooting others because they were convinced humans should be eradicated. Very arrogant and blind. If you are concerned about health and healthy lifestyle, giving people a sense of meaning and responsibility is the first step. And then give them the tools to become better and healthier. Which is what JBP and many others are doing. You don't kill someone who is not healthy... You help them see their worth and become healthier. It's harder, that's the sacrifice.
You don't believe in God, do you? Because if you did, you would recognize just how weak and pathetic you are as a human , and therefore, you are calling for your own death. This is God's house, not yours. You don't get to decide who deserves to live.
'Social Darwinism' is the term. And I personally at least think I think there is a place for a modicum of such in a healthy society. But in its extreme, it smacks of eugenics. Slippery slope stuff, I suppose. ✌️
@WinkLinkletter ya. A little bit is good. I swear my mom was right when she said, "everything in moderation"... or was that the bible? Same difference. Now that u say that I see how the slippery slope could lead to eugenics. But I was thinking about individuals voluntarily choosing a more natural life style rather than medically based. I don't know. But I'm genuinely curious would the human race be better off trusting our "creator" to things like the immune system... or can human science, with all its hubris, do a better job at managing the immune system
@WinkLinkletter I'm definitely afraid that humans, thinking they will be doing the future a good deed, will try and use medical treatment to cure the world of all its ails... cure down syndrome, cure this ailment, and that ailment, increase intelligence through dna manipulation.... but in the end we will just make things worse off. I would rather trust who ever, Who ever, or what ever created us.
Yip, but your story was told six centuries before Jesus. Pretty sure Christian reasoning and the Enlightenment have already and will continue to use transhumanism to keep your story alive.
i think you are wack J because you do not have another higher perspective looking at you whilst you busy yourself being the master of your points of views.
The crap you ask? Well, your apprehension of what the world and nature really is, unbeknownst i'm sure considering the molding of culture, and cosmic/microscopic/animals/etc. I would recommend (yes, i am a doctor) ayahuasca. Whatever if you have done it in the past and resulted into nothing. Now, with that being said, have that experience if you dare enter a more dual experience.
I think the most misunderstood thing by Jordan is the concept of grace.
💯
😂
... and faith too
@@sikelelaklaas4687 And you tube commenters. And X. And diet. And fate. And destiny. Oh, I am sure Jordan himself could tell us many things that he doesn't understand. He's okay with that he will learn more because he knows he doesn't understand. You who think you know and rest in your knowledge? You should be very, very, very concerned for your ignorant, self satisfied, finger pointing selves. At the very least you break your arms patting yourselves on the back! God bles. God bless us every one!!
Grace is Jesus. Jon's first words of Christ were Grace AND Truth, not the other way around.
Jesus is Grace and is calling Jordan. Jordan knows this and God is infinitely patient. God's perfect timing. Rejoice the living God, Jesus, whose spirit is here to share with the world through Jordan.
Jordan has helped save many people and Jesus knows it
Words of wisdom. Happy Christmas everyone. Don't ever let the World beat you down. 🎄
The world has already beaten them down, or else they would purge 1) modern love, 2) queerdom and 3) queer marriage.
So much for a Merry Christmas!
How even can they experience the happiness of Sacrifice like the Dr. is talking about when they won't even give up their selfish, vile, perverted Pride and their Fake Virtue, just to save their souls??
Knowing what gender and marriage is like everyone does, then deciding to live a pathological lie where it's "no big deal" to use "pronouns" or else directly lie about gender and marriage to save a cold and hedonistic pervert from being "offended" is as far from the spirit of Christian Sacrifice as you can get!
So much for a Merry Christmas when everyone will have to have THAT on their conscience to the end of their days and beyond death!
I view capitalism as the economics of sacrifice. The value of anything is determined by what I am willing to sacrifice for the sake of obtaining it. By that standard, we begin to understand the love God has for humanity through offering His only begotten Son for us. In light of that sacrifice, the only proper response is the 1st and greatest commandment,"You shall love the Lord your God with all Your heart and all your soul and all Your mind."
Jordan, you need to born again from above !
Name one man or woman, alive or dead, getting born again because someone told them they need to. You are a fool that even Mr. T wouldn't pity! God bless. God bless us every one!!
@@flashwashington2735 Jesus to Nicodomus in John 3. Blessings from Finland by the fool.
Present is all there is, I don't sacrifice it, I build upon it
Wonderful discussion.❤✝️
One of the greatest sins against Reason is unwarranted assumption...
and Right Reason must proceed from the Light, not the other way round, for The Light proceeds from the transcendent God, but Reason proceeds from Man.
Please Lord God - I bring Prof Peterson to you. Please motivated christians to pray for him. That christ is formed in him and that he finds the one who is the truth. God this is my sincere prayer. Look after this man
"It stands to reason that where there’s sacrifice, there’s someone collecting sacrificial offerings. Where there’s service, there’s someone being served. The man who speaks to you of sacrifice, speaks of slaves and masters. And intends to be the master." -- The Soul of A Collectivist, Ayn Rand
Yeah... that just isn't a good argument at all by Rand. What is the middle term in the argument to move from the major premise, that there is someone collecting the sacrifice, to the conclusion that this intends to convey a slave relationship. This quote begs the question through a qualitative equivocation of sacrifice with the second example of service meaning to convey they are one and the same or at least analogous enough to reference them together. That makes absolutely no sense. Sacrifice in the example of the geneticist given in this clip sacrificed herself to her work and to the potential outcomes of what may be produced. What happened, as is the case with all action, there were unintended consequences which happened to be profoundly positive. So who would be the slave and who would be the master in this scenario? She might well have been serving some notion of contributing to science but surely we recognize the dynamics of service and that of slavery to be profoundly different. All Slavery is service but not all service is slavery. So the introduction of the use of the term service does nothing to move from the initial statement to the conclusion. If her work was the master then that would seem odd given no agency can be attributed to an instrumental cause but was merely a means to an end. And this end may well have been her end! She can't be the master and the slave for obvious reasons. So where should we go from here?
This is incredibly reductionistic to argue that all sacrifice entails a slave/master relationship. Perhaps someone holds the conviction that to do X is good and to fail to do X or even to do non-X, is wrong. If that agent acts to uphold their conviction that they must do X at whatever cost, then the desire to act has nothing to do with an offering to be collected and no other agent is involved in the choosing even if someone else benefits particularly when the sacrifice is done voluntarily. I find no examples of voluntary slavery! There must be some relational predicate or power structure to infer what you did by providing the Rand quote where no volitional agency was acted on. In other words, who is the slave in the paradigm given by Rand? Who collects? If a parent sacrifices and works 2 jobs to make sure their kids have food and opportunity, are we honestly to say the parent is a slave to their children? I don't think you thought through the implications of what you were saying in context to the clip above.
@EveryHappening Rand tends towards long form writing. This is just a punchy paragraph getting to the meat of the matter. In other places (for dozens of pages at a time), she explains she does not consider hard work towards a goal to be sacrifice. This is done with similar logic to why voluntary things are not sacrifice.
Under altruism, the more one gains, the lesser the sacrifice. With true sacrifice (true alturism) being action that purely benefits others. So if it's voluntary, it's a benefit to you, (since it is something you desired) and thus not a sacrifice. Or at least a lesser one.
So hard work to gain something, is definitionally "selfish" and thus not an altruistic sacrifice.
Likewise, giving up something you like in order to take care of your children is not a sacrifice. In fact it's more selfish than giving up your children's well-being in favor of perfect strangers, and so is not perfect (lesser) altrusim.
This is the framework she is working from. Sacrifice is giving up something of value (to you) for the benefit of something of lesser value (to you).
Edit: The Cain and Abel story without the metaphorical re-interpretation is a perfect illustration of the point.
They sacrifice food by destroying it, the one who loses the better food is deemed the more moral. But what does a God need with burnt food? Doubly, so if there is no God.
Metaphorically, harder work has greater rewards (more pleasing to god), but they literally destroyed their hard work for the (hypothetical) enjoyment of someone who demanded it of their servants. For no personal benefit, other than staving off punishment.
@@ttthttpd I get that Rand writes in long form... I am pretty sure that is the definition of a book. SO of course the argument is nuanced but I am just curious why that would be the quote you would use when it would take so much to explain why it isn't question begging? Because it most certainly is. As is much of Rand's moral theory
I was going to write more but given your comment that neglecting your kids for personal gain is less selfish than to sacrifice yourself for their gain is the sort of incoherent drivel that anyone with two bits of common sense recognizes as wrong. And not just wrong, but the sort of evil which only exists among the ivory tower of academic elites explaining away goodness to protect theories obfuscating their responsibility to a transcendent purpose. This isn't simply just having been wrong as if you erred merely in degrees but that your mistake is so grievous that to have said nothing at all would have been exponentially better than to have said anything. To be so hopelessly and myopically committed to something that foolish should shock me but it doesn't- first year philosophy students never do any more. it is one thing to say God doesn't exist. Knock yourself out, But to marginalize the sacrifice of single moms trying to raise their kids as though this were an act of selfishness while purportedly claiming neglect is morally preferred is something only a philosopher or a maleficent person might say. I hope you will one day see the utter insanity and impossibility of that position. Given our society, I highly doubt this. I will not engage with you again or read your response. I would rather have my toenails pulled.
@EveryHappening You clearly didn't read, or let your own biases rewrite what I wrote.
I said nothing about neglecting your kids for your own benefit. I said doing so FOR THE BENEFIT OF OTHERS is less selfish than caring for them.
Caring about your kids IS MORE SELFISH than caring about OTHER people's kids.
Do you get it yet?
Edit: Here's a direct quote showing what I mean:
"If you own a bottle of milk and give it to your starving child, it is not a sacrifice; if you give it to your neighbor’s child and let your own die, it is."
@@ttthttpd you stated it so poorly that your intent didn’t come through… not in the least bit. If it had been as clear as the source material quoted, it would have been easily discussed. There was no imposition of bias. It was an honest interpretation of an atrocious restatement! Why not just quote Rand? Moreover, your example does more to prove how narrow and restrictive objectivism is. It is unable to deal with moral dilemmas and reduces such dilemmas to retain a false dichotomy with no possible alternative. There are many nuances to determine what would be or wouldn’t be sacrificial.
As someone who was raised fundamentalist evangelical and is now ecumenical and liturgical, I know intimately how tribal we Christians can get. I don’t want Jordan and Tammy Peterson, who are dear to me, to be hurt by that tribalism.
Insight from Tammy that I felt was convicting was that Dr. Peterson feels very uncomfortable when people ask him about his faith because he can sense that the motives aren’t always pure. Often the questioner wants to be the one to lead Jordan Peterson to Christ or to be the one who gets Jordan Peterson to confess his Christianity, and the motive is self-serving and the love for Jordan Peterson, the human being, the brother for whom Christ died, isn’t there or is feigned. And that troubles him, Tammy says. So I think we Christians need to let Jordan Peterson be where he is on his journey with the Lord and leave it with the Lord.
I also know that Dr. Peterson, although he shares a great deal openly, is a very private person. If he says he doesn’t feel ready to openly discuss such a private matter as his faith journey, I think we need to respect and honor that. Because we don’t know where he is and it isn’t any of our damn business. God knows where he is and God is using Jordan and Tammy Peterson mightily. That should be enough for us.
That is a fair point... It's just that True Christianity demands more than that, to be a follower of Christ is definitely a very public affair, look at how He suffered, we are encouraged to follow on His footsteps, that includes a lot of suffering... This path is very public and painful, I do hear your words and I respect them.
However, we are warned against being one of those disingenuous on the street corner praying in order to be witnessed by others as righteous and pious.
Brilliant analysis.
Some of us see the story of the crucifixion of Christ not as a sacrifice of substitution, but as the ultimate example and embodiment of the need to be willing to sacrifice not only our ego, but our very lives, in our otherwise feeble effort to align ourselves with the transcendent morality we know as God, and the basis for the compassionate forgiveness of our sins, and the sins of others.
Seriously? Wow
The Good Shepherd motif is woven throughout the OT (God). Jesus claimed to be the Good Shepherd, who lays down His life for the sheep. The sacrificial system was a temporary institution that dealt with sin in an incomplete way - it was temporary, and points to Christ's sacrifice, the Lamb of God, come to take away the sins of the world. I don't think you're doing yourself any favors by not facing this directly, but you are free to believe what you want.🙏🏻
I feel sorry for JP as he continues to intellectualize himself into a corner. I wish him an open mind as he speaks with John.
Yes. Thank you.
As long as Peterson will adhere to jungian categories, he will not be able to understand the God of the gospel or the Gospel of God. When he, interpreting the Pietà of Michelangelo, expressed the Roman Catholic doctrine of Mary's "sacrificing" her Son , Lennox could and should have helped him see the erroneousness of that doctrine, thus the utter uniqueness of Christ's sacrifice in our stead.
JP is like a Catholic entangled in a Protestant framework.
Read if you have the gusto C. G. Jung's Anwer To Job, and then listen to this it's quite the read, better be ready to exercise your mental faculties
"Transhumanist engineering." Is he referring to the practice of cryonics? I am skeptical, but they've found microorganisms that were frozen for thousands of years that were revivified.
Probably included but very much more than that involved. Just Google 'transhumanism' for a weird ride.
Thank you for the doing this
Discussion on sacrifice. I know I certainly appreciate that you both took the time to debate this. It was very well done, you both made it easy to follow.
I really wish you had brought someone on with you both
that could debate this from the darker perspectives of the word and intention behind it.
Maybe In a more dualistic manner to gain perspective from both sides, so it could be seen in a less biased way.
Utterly clueless to me, would be thinking that it was OK back in the day when parents were to sacrifice their own children! That was no small act! the value of human life would barely exist in circumstances such as this!
No wonder women have abortions without guilt these days. The value of human life has diminished exponentially in my lifetime.
Even then- they knew sacrifice was wrong! But there was a lot more going on then any of us will ever actually know. So if we don’t look for the answers. We remain clueless.
The history behind their actions has more to do with the evil intentions of other humans.
There were people who did this without a conscience, so I’m not saying they were innocently led to murder their own children.
That’s a contradiction anyway.
There were other gods, many of them required human sacrifice, or so they were told by their priests of their day!
this contradicts the loving God that hates murder. But you said that the Bible says God requires sacrifice.
So if God hates murder as stated also in the Bible. Why would God want us to kill a human in the name of God?
You would have to be able to be open to the fact that the Bible was put together in a very confusing way from ancient epics Egyptian and historical jewish text, original cuneiform text and codex. It’s not that it isn’t true or accurate it’s pieced together and there is so much that is missing from it. Hence it’s many contradictions.
Sacrifice is murder that’s what sacrifice is! It’s also a satanic word. Words are spells.
it’s murder!
God does not want us murdering our children!
Better for you an-albatross be tied around your neck and cast into the ocean than to harm a child .
I believe that would include sacrifice.
For Example: I had children and I worked hard my whole life. I didn’t make it easy on myself because I was a single mother, but I always worked to take good care of my children.
I was the only parent they had growing up.
I can honestly say I never
sacrificed anything but I can honestly say that I GAVE’ “my life to make sure my kids were OK. Regardless of my own needs and comforts.
I believe that when you give your life, and your life force there is always a blessing in it. But when you see it as a loss and sacrifice it is a curse.
The word sacrifice is actually a satanic word. It has a lot of darkness attached to it. One of the reasons I don’t like using it is because of the connotation that is associated with this word. of it is so negative. I think if we approached selfless acts as “giving” of oneself to include one’s actual life, even in the sense of giving, it’s a much better prospect in my mind then it would be to lose my life so someone else could benefit from the loss of my life. .
This word is directly correlated with human sacrifice, which is human death. I really found the Cain and Abel explanation, well thought out and easy to understand, but at the same time once again, God required the death of some being, which is once again… A sacrifice” the loss of life to satisfy God?,
but the Earth in which he created a garden for people to grow food out of was not good enough? Has anyone ever wondered why the very plants God them to eat wasn’t good enough?
God, wanted a life to be taken. and food that was given to his children was not good enough. I feel like this could’ve been better explained on my part but it’s already a letter.
This topic is very important because I believe human beings would value life more if they understood that they were valued by there creator.
I struggle with the whole word, and it’s connotation, I feel like there’s just so much confusion there and it’s also so negative that I don’t know how anyone could see it in a positive light.
It makes a world of difference when you say I gave my life as opposed to saying I sacrificed it, but I guess that depends on whether you worship sacrifice or not. I know it sounds like I’m being rude and I don’t really mean to be, I just recently wrote a poem about this and I have had conflicts with it and I know why it’s being discussed so I felt like it was an opportunity to explain myself a little better. I believe in giving my life but I do not believe any human should engage in the ritual of sacrifice for anyone.
Always give and give gladly!
And the glory goes to the creator!
Thank you.
Well then purge 1) modern love, 2) queerdom and 3) queer marriage.
Since you already know how deep the problem is with people in the world today, don't lose your soul by not acting!
You seem concerned about having Blessings and avoiding the Curses that come when you forfeit Blessings, so don't do go ruining your OWN soul to be like everyone else!
@@ForGlory
I am not really concerned with either. But I do believe in God very much.
It took forever for me to learn not to obsess over curses. Lol.
People have a way of reinforcing such things. I’m grateful.
I know God has me. I have no desire to be like anyone else but me.
Thanks for the good advice.
Like all Americans, Jordan says Tower of Babble. In England, we say Tower of Bayble.
Dr Peterson is Canadian, hailing from Fairview, Alberta. Not American.
I agree with saltburner2. Its not like Canada is in North America or anything.
@@TheDetectiveJ Yeah when someone says, "I'm American the first thought that springs to your mind is "Argentinian.'" Right. Sell it somewhere else, buddy.
The comments section of this video in itself speaks to the value of this video and JBP conversations in general.
We need to push through the superficial & metaphorical constant in our daily life today, and be more in tune with the reality of living, which such videos call us to.
Thanks for all you do JBP, your impact and sacrifice is felt all the way out here in Cameroon. God bless.
There is much I have endured and suffered in life. The worst was when engulfed in the web of a mighty terrible and ferocious metaphor. Constant and continual was he, ever building his horrible web fashioned after the pattern of the notorious trapdoor spider, who has engulfed mighty ships at sea into the abyss. But far grander and more terrifying this even swallowed the mighty leviathan!! I know not how, but God's grace I am here. The superficial we can handle. It's the dragons who would devour us with those metaphorical constants. The variable constants offer relief with their ebb flow. Stay safe!!
Human beings shouldn’t have to be told by a god to “sacrifice”. That’s just “common sense” because self-sacrifice is a necessity in order to sustain civilized social groups. And that’s one thing wrong with capitalism. It doesn’t require sacrifice for the sake of society. Capitalism emphasizes self-interest and not self-sacrifice. It’s shameful that grown humans have to be instructed by god to sacrifice. It should be part of being a member of a civilized society.
And evil people are manipulative and they prey on this need for sacrifice. People are willing to kill and sacrifice the Son of God, aren't they? If society is evil, make no sacrifice to it or for it. It's no different than sacrificing to the other gods
You’re assuming people sacrificed the “son of god”. It may be “true” that a Jesus (street preacher) was crucified by ancient Romans. But there’s a Huge difference between crucifixion of a moral man and the “son of god”. First off… your belief in god is NOT based upon Any evidence there exists such a being. What you believe is what you’re been told by other. And it’s very likely those same people also had no proof of god. Secondly, you don’t have any evidence other than the ancient words of strangers of which you know nothing about. Face facts… you believe because it helps you cope with the real world. Religion gives people a sense of security and even promises things it can’t deliver such as “life ever after”. It all comes together to form a spiritual security blanket even though no one can produce evidence biblical events actually happened.
(Hosea 6:6) For I desired mercy, and not sacrifice; and the knowledge of God more than burnt offerings. "mercy" in that verse means "loving kindness". What GOD wants from us is our love, AND to have knowledge of HIM. What Christianity is ALL about is "Walking In The SPIRIT". If you are interested in what it means to walk in THE SPIRIT, let me know. I have a post on it.
You are confusing the matter, Abel's sacrifice was accepted because it was offered by faith... Hebrews gives a brilliant context and application for that Genesis narrative.
@@sikelelaklaas4687 Thank you. 🙂
But what about muh rebuilding the temple and burnt offerings?
Christ took the sin of the world.......nothing comes close.....it is not orders of magnitude.......it is something that God alone could accomplish.
🙋♂️Jordan, ok so the story portrayed,we slayed the most high too aid the least ov! Maybe in this day we reverse this ideal!😳👍🤣🤣🤣❤️
So does this end the evangelical vs. Latter Day Saint debate about God wanting our faith and our works to be saved thru his grace? Just stirring the pot, no offense meant 😊
Latter Day Saints aren't from God. That's been revealed. We shouldn't fear offending liars, should we?
@@amyrenee1361 just curious what revelation. And I’m guessing that Jesus would want us to be kind to everyone, even pray for those who despitefully use us. The parable of the Good Samaritan comes to mind. One was busy judging and the other was busy serving others. You are most likely a great Christian and have herd a lot of anti Mormon stuff your whole life. I would invite you to attend a meeting or read the Book of Mormon and see for yourself. Hope you have a great day and thanks for responding.
Jordan I really wonder why you have guests on as you take over far too much and don't give them a chance to speak !
You will not get the point of sarificing/ to be sacrificed!?; cause you sacrifice the things that not belonging toyou! If you sacrifice!!!
Can you sacrifice your Ego/I am???
This is the point!
'to be or not to be!' is equal to 'to have or not to have!' my last words for the moment!
You are smart! Think about this
When you say ' I do not have anything!' , you are with me, in Oneness'
Love, needs alot brainstorming!
Well professor.. next job in Rome.. Pope..
I was thinking about sacrifice... if we are called to sacrifice for future generations... is there an argument to be made that we should let covid wipe out the weak? If we agreed to let the weak die and survival of the fittest would strengthen the people living 10 000 years from now. Sounds ridiculous, but in what way (in regards to modern medicine) are we being selfish? What way are we sacrificing for future generations? Putting 50% of our GDP into research to cure cancer could seem like a great sacrifice... but maybe a better sacrifice would be to find the causes of cancer and work to change our lifestyle to eliminate cancer. Maybe work on vaccines is a sacrifice.... but maybe a better sacrifice is letting weak people die. I'd bet we would have zero fat people if that was our strategy. I'm just thinking out loud. Not that I nessacarry believe this
Proper sacrifice is voluntary and individual. A person deciding that a weak person should die it's not proper sacrifice, there's no respect for the victim's will there, the victim didn't decide it. By violating their will, you disregard their intrinsic value. And it's a luciferian pretention to think you know better, that because you think you understand the future, you decide who lives and who doesn't. It's the same problem with the people that started shooting others because they were convinced humans should be eradicated. Very arrogant and blind. If you are concerned about health and healthy lifestyle, giving people a sense of meaning and responsibility is the first step. And then give them the tools to become better and healthier. Which is what JBP and many others are doing. You don't kill someone who is not healthy... You help them see their worth and become healthier. It's harder, that's the sacrifice.
You don't believe in God, do you? Because if you did, you would recognize just how weak and pathetic you are as a human , and therefore, you are calling for your own death. This is God's house, not yours. You don't get to decide who deserves to live.
'Social Darwinism' is the term. And I personally at least think I think there is a place for a modicum of such in a healthy society. But in its extreme, it smacks of eugenics. Slippery slope stuff, I suppose. ✌️
@WinkLinkletter ya. A little bit is good. I swear my mom was right when she said, "everything in moderation"... or was that the bible? Same difference.
Now that u say that I see how the slippery slope could lead to eugenics. But I was thinking about individuals voluntarily choosing a more natural life style rather than medically based. I don't know. But I'm genuinely curious would the human race be better off trusting our "creator" to things like the immune system... or can human science, with all its hubris, do a better job at managing the immune system
@WinkLinkletter I'm definitely afraid that humans, thinking they will be doing the future a good deed, will try and use medical treatment to cure the world of all its ails... cure down syndrome, cure this ailment, and that ailment, increase intelligence through dna manipulation.... but in the end we will just make things worse off. I would rather trust who ever, Who ever, or what ever created us.
Yip, but your story was told six centuries before Jesus. Pretty sure Christian reasoning and the Enlightenment have already and will continue to use transhumanism to keep your story alive.
i think you are wack J because you do not have another higher perspective looking at you whilst you busy yourself being the master of your points of views.
but... im open for a more positive outlook, considering.
suppose you were to be introduced to a higher dimension. You can't bring that crap! You're a noob over there.
The crap you ask? Well, your apprehension of what the world and nature really is, unbeknownst i'm sure considering the molding of culture, and cosmic/microscopic/animals/etc. I would recommend (yes, i am a doctor) ayahuasca. Whatever if you have done it in the past and resulted into nothing. Now, with that being said, have that experience if you dare enter a more dual experience.
Dual you ask? The yin and the yang. bra.
the old and the youth.. Do i really have to specify?
Children in adult bodies.