Why CHOP and DROP with cover crops is a WASTE OF TIME!
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 28 ก.ค. 2024
- Chop and drop is a popular method for "composting" cover crops and green manures on the surface of a bed. It's easy, but is there actually a big benefit to the soil in doing it? I'm not so sure, and here's why...
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If the intention of planting and chopping a cover crop is done for the purpose of soil building/soil accumulation, You are correct it will be very slow. However, I think comparing a chop and drop crop to a traditional compost pile isn't a fair comparison because they don't do the same thing.
I also know that you are severely underestimating the role of insects, isopods, worms, mites and microorganisms when it comes to the benefits of chop and drop. I do a chop and drop crop on all my gardens twice a year. Within days of chopping, when I pick up any of the leaves, I always find a assortment of insects doing their job. I find pill bugs, sow bugs, earwigs, centipedes, millipedes, red wiggler worms, nightcrawlers, land snails, soldier fly larvae, slugs, and lots and lots of springtails if I look really close and 'm sure there are numerous other opportunistic diners of decaying or rotting material hard at work that are too small for the naked eye to see. They begin eating that dropped crop as soon as it hits the soil and are then pooping out vital nutrients. Those insects are turning that chop and drop crop into a very nutrient dense complete fertilizer that you don't get in traditional compost. Composting has its benefits, but because of the heat involved, the majority of it isn't digested by insects as a chop and drop crop is. It's comparing compost to castings and they aren't the same. I raise several types of composting worms in numerous vermicompost bins. The castings they produce aren't designed to be a soil builder but rather a very nutrient dense living fertilizer. When I brew it into a tea using rainwater a bit of black strap molasses and some lactobacillus extract, those beneficial bacteria multiply times 10.
I look at this as two entirely different things. You have a traditional compost pile that is broken down by heat for the most part and then you have a thin layer of decaying matter that is consumed by isopods, worms, insects, fungi and various forms of bacteria that turn it into nutrient dense castings aka fertilizer directly on top of the garden.
I believe both have value. As they are two entirely different things.
My last thought is your description of a compost pile is not how a proper compost pile would be, or should be run. You said pile it up, the inside heats up and assuming it wasn't watered the outside just turns brown. That's the problem. Proper composting does require maintenance and monitoring. watering and turning and layering of both carbon and nitrogen sources are required for it to function properly. It needs cover part of the time needs a cool down and if you mess it up you get a stinking slimy mound of an aerobic mess that is good for nothing. Not many people put the necessary effort into starting and finishing a compost pile properly. With chop and drop all you have to do is drop it and the insects do the rest. It is completely error proof unlike composting
There are 3 types of composting in my system. 1 is vermicomposting (worm farm). Another is a Johnson-Su type that isn't turned but has to be watered ALL THE TIME...specifically not turned to leave the fungal networks undisturbed (if killing the networks by "turning" - they grow back...maybe). The last type is "hot" composting...with turning. The hot compost covers every square inch of my garden 2" - 3" thick. And I put an inch or two of straw or cut grass on top of the compost (can't say I've noticed all the insects working on the straw or grass - as you point out... but I'll be paying more attention to those critters this year).
I make Bio-stimulants (both extracts and teas) using compost from all three types of compost....plus a tea made from fresh cow manure ( for a fermented source of microorganisms). For the best innoculants, you want the greatest diversity of microorganisms possible...the various local situations will select which ones are needed...and those selectively multiply. The greater the diversity, the more likely to have the right guys "on the team" to get whatever needs done...done.
You're very correct about the importance of underground fungi and bacteria that plants and trees share a symbiosis with. Fertilizers screwed this up by eliminated the good bacteria and bad ones take over. This causes pesticides to be required where natural organic farming usually doesn't.
@@slowfudgeballs9517 artificial fertilizers screwed up a lot of things but it's not too late. Through the addition of compost and things like worm castings and nitrogen fixing cover crops we can undo the damage and restore the natural well bacterial level to the soil and bring it back to life. It will take a little work but not nearly as much work as the non-stop spraying of chemicals requires
@@connecticutwormsgardens it's funny because whatever civilization was in the Amazon they all knew about soil science. That Terra Preta stuff is full of fungi and bacteria. Pottery is used as water wicks. Bio char is the habitat for the microbes. Yellow clay in the Amazon is traditionally terrible farmland.
I do lazy man's compost and I can tell you it results in a beautiful blend of hot compost and cold compost. I start with bugs eating the decaying materials until I get enough built up to start hot composting. Then it will cook for a few days, burn itself out, and then its back to the bugs to finish. Turn it maybe every couple weeks, don't add water I let mother nature rain on it except the water from cleaning out my kitchen scrap bucket. Might take 2 months to produce 1.5 cubic yards of compost, but i think it combines the best of all the decomposers in a single pile.
Regarding Chop and Drop, for the express purpose of building soil, your points are well-taken. There are other reasons for doing it on a small scale: 1) Nitrogen fixing; 2) protecting the soil from the elements beyond the growing season.
Do we leave the root structure in the ground when we are using cover crop such as clover?
@@axut-3928 yes
@@axut-3928roots in the ground are sequestered carbon and can act as a sponge for moisture retention.
I'm interested in using cover crops as a mulch for the benefits of weed suppression, as well as nitrogen fixation, breaking up clay soil, and preventing soil erosion on a hill in my backyard.
My take on this is that with chop and drop, when you knock it down it depends on how thick it is. If you use a variety of plants in your cover and you cut it leaving it on the top, your right it will dry. But when it rains that dry material will soak in ten times its weight in water. But if it is not thick, it wont break down at all it will sit there till you cover it thicker with material. As for using it in compost, if you use only the material you cut, you turn it and all to break it all down, once you spread it, it wont be that thick anyway. Many dont realize to that when material breaks down, the only thing that will be left in the soil is material that is mostly carbon, like fall leaves and sticks. All the material that is broken down by bacteria like clovers and vetch, because of the low carbon to nitrogen ratio, there wont be any of it left, it more or less becomes the fertilizer for your plants. Where as plants with a high carbon to nitrogen ratio there will be an initial breakdown by bacteria, but then the fungi will take over and it breaks it down till it cant anymore then that's when your left with humus. Which can last centuries. I agree with the initial benefit compost is the way to go. But if you want to balance out the bacteria to fungi ratio in your soil. Chop and drop is better. Many dont realize that with higher fungal activity in the soil, less pesky weeds will pop up. Sorry for being long winded.
My understanding is that the determining factor for whether the primary mechanism of decomposition in your compost pile is fungal or bacterial is the temperature rather than the C:N ratio of individual particulates. Lower temperature hot compost will be primarily fungi driven (which decomposes larger, high C:N particles more effectively) whereas high temperature hot compost (~160F+ if I remember correctly) will be primarily bacterial driven; in my experience I don't see any thermophilic fungus in my piles at these temps.
Also the C:N ratio should approach an equilibrium within the pile with turning and decomposition. In an ideal scenario the finished product isn't the high carbon remains of an individual particle after everything has been digested off of it but rather the exudates and even remains of the organisms doing the digesting. The products of that digestion being more stable complex organic molecules.
I couldn't say for sure because I haven't consulted any literature but I would reckon much more humic material is remaining with chop and drop than the video suggests. The same processes that remove the carbon are occurring within the litter at the interface of the litter and the O horizon of the soil as is occurring in the compost pile just at slower rate as determined by the local microclimate and soil ecosystem rather than the maintenance of the compost pile. Whether or not a greater quantity of valuable "humic" material remains from chop and drop vs. composting is likely in the largest part determined by the specific chemical and metabolic pathways at work than characteristics of our material such as spatial concentration or distribution of our final or intermediate stage product. And I'm not sure if the research exists yet to know for certain. The very chemical nature of humus is currently hotly debate.
How about using somewhat unfinished compost?
I use a few liquids biopreparates produced in bio-factory to help on the start (Nitrogen-fixators) and bacillus subtilis to prevent some of deseases after transplanting. I noticed a great difference on how the same tomatoe looks like with chop&drop or without. It really works to feed bacteria, to keep moisture on the surface of the ground. There’s more roots on the foot of tomatoe. Before all it works great if i use a fresh green leaves. When they become yellow i add more to cover 15cm radius around the plant again
@@dakotahamilton9478 As I understand, Termophilic phase is not the only phase that is driven by bacteria. Temperature isn't always indication of weather bacteria or fungus is primary driver of decomposition since there are Actinomycetes (bacteria that degrade complex material in final (curing) phase along with fungi). From what I've read in the literature - fungi also proliferate with higher temperature, but are located on the outter leyers of compost (maybe it's to hot in the centre for them, or maybe bacterial overgrowth during termophilinc stage is out casting them to the area where is lower bacterial count, I dunno). What is sure is that bacteria need more nitrogen for themselves then fungi and therefore bacteria will proliferate and drive decomposition exponentialy by generating enviromental condition that suits them (heat) but only while there is high nitrogen level in the organic matter. When nitrogen level in organic mater (as protein) is depleted (used up by them, or converted to mineral form), their activity decreases, temperature decreases, which decreases temp-loving bacteria count, which means that they become inactive or die off becoming „organic matter“ themselves and becoming food for other bacteria and fungi. I quess further in time, as cycle repeats itself with down spiral of available organic nitrogen decoposition falls down to microorganisms that require less nitrogen for themselves. Fungi are one of those types.
So, my logic tell's me this: Total amount of organic nitrogen (N-total) of covercrop will be converted to mineral plant available nitrogen either way, but in different amounts of time.
If you crop and compost, you will have most of N-total ready when compost is finished.
If you crop and drop, you will have that amount of N-total much later, in over a year's amount of time (or a bith faster with more insects' and worm's activity). If it's a regular practice (each year), this year you'll get nitrogen from previous year's cover crops, then in a few years it doesn't matter.
I'm not sure I understand Diego's idea of this hybrid aproach of alternating cover crop and production crop. Always having one part of soil for direct seeding and always having mulch taken (choped) from second part, and then using second part to grow transplanted parts. So 2 productions in a year. But what would he use as a mulch for transplanted plants in second part of soil? If he uses perenials as mulch I could unterstand (perenials would regrow along transplanted anuals), but there is whole another issue of growing anuals among perenials (even legumes) regarding yield. What sorts to use that are competitive and will give good yield (some plants grow great leaves but small yield on competition floor).
I don't really see any benefit that this alternation brings over cover croping the whole place, cutting and dropping it as mulch in terms of fertility. You just have one part cleaner for direct seeding. But then, you either have no mulch for transplanted plants or you have possible yield issue.
@Diego Footer, have you tried this up until now. I would like to see how it went? Link maybe?
@@Lochness19 I find it can be sludgy and matt over the soil surface, but of course that depends on what its made up of
Hi Diego, here in high desert of California, Antelope Valley, I use both approaches. I use the chop and drop under my trees basically the orchard part of my garden, but I used my compost for annual vegetable beds. I wood chipped my paths, and I occasionally sift them and add the goodness onto the beds. As the Oregon Garden Dude stated, you can get slugs from the chop and drop but when I use it under my trees, I don't see any harm or damage from them. But in my vegetable beds, sifted compost and sifted wood chips goodness only.
You could dust Diatomeceous earth for the slugs... Cant do any harm and you're adding silica and other minerals anyway...
I use both - composting, as well as chopping and dropping. In my experience in our edible forest gardens in a hot, humid, temperate climate, these two methods serve two different functions. The compost is wonderful for nourishing our garden soils, and the plants respond very positively to compost application almost immediately. We use our compost as a soil amendment. The chop and drop just acts like a temporary mulch, so that part is an ongoing repetitive process for us. Worms and other soil critters eat it pretty fast. We chop and drop mostly just to protect the soil surface from extremes in weather, sun exposure, etc. We integrate chop and drop plants throughout all of our edibles, and it prevents us from having to spend money on mulch. Milder climates may not experience the kind of surface benefits that we see here.
"The chop and drop just acts like a temporary mulch" - that pretty much sums it up for me. Covers the soil, retains moisture, provides habitat and food for beneficial insects higher in the soil food web.
In my opinion covering the soil is always very beneficial for many reasons (also here in a milder climate) - it keeps the moisture, giving back some additional nutrients, feeding insects and microorganisms and building humus in a long term.
For nutrition of vegetable plants of course it's not enough, unless we harvest a big part of nutrients ( the vegetables), so additional compost helps a lot.
I also think that diversity is always a good advise - in my garden I use many different types of mulching, I'm using leaves, grass clippings, hedge trimmings, wood chips, compost, chop and drop and I also compost some of these. More diversity of covering brings more diversity of insects and microorganisms, brings a very healthy soil and over the time more humus.
Where for the same area chop & drop takes me one hour, composting same biomas (collection, shredding, building pile, turning pile, watering, hauling back) might take plenty of time more. So in my opinion chop & drop is actually saving plenty of time, possibly at the cost of less efficiency. But I'm not 100% sure if this is true as well - do you get enough compost to cover the same area? For Zone 1 small garden beds I use both - compost for "hungry" plants, chop & drop for less demanding ones. The smallest bed I use cover crops and chop & drop is 1 sq. meter - for instance, I sow winter rye in autumn, then a bit later I plant garlic into it. Winter rye is being chopped and dropped in the end of May to provide mulch for garlic. Since it is a very small bed, I can do that carefully without cutting garlic. Winter rye roots are in the soil through winter, which makes a difference. Soil food web is happy, garlic grows well. Same for strawberry patch, cover cropped with white clover.
Great Job
Your organic is showing
maybe sowing cover crop with push seeder in a few straight lines makes it easier
I do it the same way. After choping everithing above the soil surface become just a thick layer of mulch and all roots benith is something that improve the soil
Hi Diego, I always like watching your shows because of your approach. I believe you are correct with chop in drop in the context mentioned as you ask if you’re missing something, the logic is at about 85% the way there. Sorry for the ensuing essay.
First let’s disambiguate terms. You say compost when you should probably say decompose. While static composting is more or less what mother nature uses in a forest setting, in truth a more complex combination of various forms of decomposition in the presence of biology. What you got 100% correct is when you spoke of "chop and drop in gardens with poor soils". A tool is purposeful for an application. Any builder knows you can remove a screw with a hammer, but it makes a mess. So, it is important to understand the application correctly before selecting the correct tool. Chop and drop is more of a tool and not a technique in my mind.
Why does static decomp work in a forest? It is because the soil food web is alive, highly established, strong, and highly diversified. It can only achieve that with root in the ground through the symbiosis of root exudates. Biology never sticks around in any useful diversity without root. So, consider that the canopy of a single tree in a forest also represents the area of the root system. Trees abut and sometimes overlap, therefore in a forest every single square inch has root. Therefore, left alone by silly humans the biology will keep itself highly diverse and the "chop and drop" of trees essentially exfoliating themselves leaves a whole ground crew of biology to deal with it.
Now look at the garden. Gardeners, organic or not still like neat weed-free rows. There will be little-to-no biology around and in between, so you have rows and strips of very limited biology. Unless a gardener takes the holistic no-till, no-dig approach, and more shepherding of perennial permaculture or effective succession planting, you will not have diverse biology, your chop and drop will simply dry and mummify on the surface. While there is use in moisture retention, it is very, very slow to break down to the humus point which requires the entire food web including bacteria, fungi, protozoa and microarthropods. Also remember that many families of microbiology wont arrive until others arrive, and this chicken egg dilemma is one of the most difficult to both comprehend and achieve. I find Elaine Ingham’s work to be paramount to this understanding about staged diversity.
On the industrial ag scale, farmers are making the mistake of leaving crop residue as a green manure, while still using inorganics like anhydrous ammonia, and "X-cides" to control pests and weeds. They carpet bomb the biology and then wonder why the crop residues are still standing in the spring which contribute to disease and steer you in the complete opposite direction. It is because they don’t have biology (refer to John Kempf at AEA who has a biological product applied in fall which helps the biology deal with crop residue safely over the winter). When an adequate environment for aerobic decomposition cannot exist, mother nature employs anaerobic decomp instead to get the job done. Almost all human pathogens are obligate anaerobes with few exceptions of facultative anaerobes that usually only become pathogenic to humans when the environment has gone completely anaerobic (and remember it only takes 20 minutes for this to happen, so compaction=bad). So, the diseases are coming due to mother nature using plan B to get the job done. We humans think teleologically which is an important word for permaculture people to understand properly. It means our logic and thinking and problem solving is lead by the desired outcome instead of the observation of all the contributing factors. This is why we ended up thinking the green revolution was a good idea. It’s also why standard agronomy is bling when it tests presence of organic nutrient from a dead soil that was transported, dried, pulverized and tested with acids and gas chromatography. The biology makes the nutrients, not the application of some chemical. Sure, it can sort of get a handful of macronutrients into the soil, but the moment the X-cides are not employed, mother nature sends in pests to drop your field because it is deemed weak and unworthy to survive. If that comment offends some people, get a helmet, and maybe look at our crumbling world and then ask yourself what part have you contributed to this?
Also, refer to Gabe brown and his modified keyline plow and system to crimp-terminate a cover and use it as "armor". He can only accomplish that because its no till, he doesn’t kill biology, he watches machine compaction carefully, and the biology deals with the armor effectively as and when it needs to utilize the organic matter to feed into a humus building system.
So back to gardens. You mention use normal mulch instead. This is where I will disagree with you partially. Combine chop and drop AND mulch which should be only deciduous trees and never coniferous unless its aged at least 1-2 years in mulch form. Diverse biology has diverse food-source requirements. This is why we now know monoculture cannot work without huge human intervention. By providing non-diverse food sources, non-diverse biology colonies form and weak ones at that, which can tip over easily from environmental factors. Wood mulches are a carbon source which feed fungal species, but fungi don’t tend to exist without significant bacterial population unless it is a forest. Then refer back to the part where undisturbed root in ground allows diverse biology to not only exist, but prosper and grow. A market garden is in the grassland succession of evolution so simply adding wood mulch provides zero guarantee of fungal colonization. What’s more your tilling will ensure no fungi can prosper because the hyphae are delicate and cannot be disturbed.
So, when choosing a strategy to "build soil organic matter, and health" you have to think first and foremost about these things:
Keep root on every square inch consistently and choose a set of tools and techniques that tries to avoid soil disturbance where biological colonization is hampered or wiped out by yanking roots at harvest or weeding. The chop and drop principle is less about feeding the soil and more about not disturbing it. Then, feed the soil with as much diverse of food as possible, so combine your wood mulches with chop and drop. Don’t grow in monoculture rows and support interdiversity between cash crops and native species that promote the macro web such as insects, birds and mammals. Yes, your single row of lettuce is still a small monoculture. See Netflix Biggest Little Farm to see how macro food web can be built by humans in the permaculture way if you aren’t familiar.
You are correct that the regular thermophilic compost method is the best way to feed the soil of a traditional market garden, if you insist on using techniques of solarization, bed prepping, tilling, root pulling, even broadforking. Every single technique of traditional market garden essentially achieves soil disturbance of some kind which kills the food web routinely. Even the addition of the best quality compost is only a temporary band-aid of reintroducing biology until harvest, and then they subside, having only ever been weak, thin, non-diverse. You'll need to adapt no dig, no till, permaculture techniques to make chop and drop an effective food source that the soil system can deal with effectively and aerobically.
I'll leave you with this thought. Chop and drop in a market garden has the benefit that if you prevent removing root, and build your entire garden around that one thing, while trying to use techniques like succession planting to keep live root all year (even under snow); Those root systems left behind will decompose in 6 weeks and becomes veins of hummus, it reverses soil compaction, holds way more water, and promote the longer term survival of biology which builds to the diversity needed to accomplish your original premise of using chop and drop material as a compost/soil building resource.
Woah, good stuff. Check out Ice Age Farmer
No apologies needed for your long "essaying"....I love reading free books. Enjoy touching base with fellow travelers. Industrial farming has got to change...and it will because it's killing itself and impoverishing its workers and burying them under loads of debt. Monsanto is the only segment making money regularly.
I'm in Ohio and I am seeing 100% no till (except the Amish) and more cover cropping (which the Amish do use).
Still a long way from biologically active soil.
I'm 7 year into building up what I thought was decent soil (I tilled in cereal rye every year)...and the difference is stark. Diverse abundant life where practically none existed before. Still lots to learn...but I'll never miss tilling and weeding and watering.
Agree with you 100%. Always learning from others experience. Greetings from Portugal - permaculture is the way to go.
Thank you for taking the time and effort to explain all this so thoroughly. I have one question, please. How does one deal with weeds that pop up in a permaculture garden? If I cut them off at the root, they will regrow. Thanks again. ~ Lisa
@@LB-vl3qn Weeds respond to soil disturbance. They mostly grow from seeds small enough to fly on the wind, that's how they seem to be everywhere. Weeds generally have two types of roots. Either very shallow to deal with compacted or overtiled soils (too much sand or silt or clay, etc) or taproot to dig down. I like the taproot guys because they till for me. I also don't mind the ground cover weeds that protect the soil from crusting from rain impact (which is the worst thing for soil compaction next to giant farm machinery). Here is some magic about weeds, they are mother natures construction and cleanup crew. They work soil into a later succession. Succsession is something to examine closely. Sucession is the fungal to bacterial ratio in the soil. Grasslands have mostly bacteria, almost no fungi. As the plants get bigger, they have a larger fungal requirement. On the other end a mature forest is all fungi with very little bacteria. Plants need to live in soils that match their needs. Since weeds respond to disturbance, you can assume there is little fungi there. What I have seen with my own eyes by "managing the disaster" (leaving weeds as is and only cutting down top protect the sunlight canopy on my crops), I find that the weeds change year over year as I move my succession. I don't remove the weeds, just chop and drop and keep working to add organic matter and measure my F:B ratios. The change in what grows is evident when you are going in the right direction because the soil itself is expressing what plants will want to grow there. I have watched weeds work themselves out of certain gardens I did this well in, and become worse in others. So I am not managing weeds or plants at all really, only managing the soil's health. Back to what I mentioned above, chop and drop works if the soil has what it needs to break that plant down before it goes anaerobic from a messy pileup and create nasty stuff in your soil. So I just let the chaos organize itself and I give it a push here and there. Leaving the soil surface alone and dibbling the plants into little holes (or growing from direct seed) seems to be the best way to watch the weeds work themselves out of the garden eventually.
Diego, if we are optimizing for production, then yes, compost and mulch reduce downtime and the pain of planting in residues. I think it depends on what you are growing: for instance, slugs came for the chop and drop and stayed for all my veg transplants; so in this case compost would have been better.
But I also want to acclimate my soil environment to the things I am growing and I think chop n drop will contribute to the biology in a way that compost wouldn't (composting may encourage certain cultures over another and, who knows, introduce new organisms and overtake native ones. This is why I am interested in your eucalyptus compost experiment. Is compost the great equalizer, blank slate, powerfully neutral?).
Maybe cold composting is the best compromise.
On the topic of soil building, I don't see my chop n drop blowing away and any cover is better than no cover. I have come to the conclusion that the way to add organic matter to the soil is letting roots decay, not mixing in from the surface layers no matter if it's woodchips, straw, compost, or chop n drop
I like your channel because there is a theme of the permaculture intersecting the objectives of productive edible production. Your channel really gets me thinking :)
In permaculture “Chop & drop” is the alternative to “slash & burn”. It is really effective in clearing overgrown areas and the resulting thick mulch then stops weed germination, ideal for a food forest garden. Compost builds fine fertile soil which is ideal for high production, but it is work intensive. Perfect for the market garden. On a large property you have to use both methods to build soil, with the amount of time available,
@@Inventio13 I agree, I'm using both, in the larger outside area I used to pile up (Chop & pile up) - making lines (usally east-west to block the sun as much as I can do) they about 30cm high - not enough for composting but what can I do - no material to work with), what i noticed they keep moisture in, much better then spreading it around, therefore weeds start to grow on the sides of the lines, making shade for the others = more moisture, more plants - I'm not planning to plant there anything yet, the soil were destroyed all around really just some loose grasslike things mostly nothing was there before when I started (like a half desert), so it's starting to create more advanced and diverse systems - I want to improve it over time, but somewhere I had to start so I concentrated all the biomass as much as I could, just for the sake of life and diversity I think it will work, I can see the results from hundred meters away (2 years gone) there are patches of green now. But for "home gardening" i using compost cos there i need soil quick, to produce.
Check the work of Dr. Christine Jones. Her research is focused on building soil biology abundance and diversity. Her work indicates that almost all "soil building" REQUIRES photosynthesis feeding nutrients to the soil... feeding microorganisms that do all the work. The plants feed the microorganisms....and the microorganisms feed and care for the plants.
Building soil using living roots fed by active photosynthesis is 5 to 20 times faster and more effective than just Composting...and you can do both!
Living Roots should occupy as much volume of soil as possible in the garden. We avoid crowding fearing other plants steal nutrients from the good plants....and it does, until full soil biology is restored, and then it doesn't.
Most folks I know treat chop and drop as a mulch in our subtropical climate here in SE QLD Australia. Not really used to build soil.
I have used Chinese Celtis (classed as a weed here) as a perennial chop and drop mulch but prefer to use it as a base to make compost.
Cheers mate. 👍
That would build soil by the roots in the ground and the cut-material on the surface which decompose. What's amiss about that? How else? I come from perspective of being an Orchardist/Vineyardist.
@@bonsummers2657 It would contribute to some soil creation but it isn't the main focus of its use for us in our context. Keeping the soil cool & trying to retain moisture is the functions I'm mainly after. Hope that makes sense. 👍
@@RobsAquaponics Keeping the soil cool and retaining moisture is the result of chop (if the height is 'excessive') and drop. What are you thinking? I've been doing this since 1990. Fukuoka is my main influence since the late 1980's. I know what what I speak of by abundant direct experience.
@@bonsummers2657 🤔 I'm a bit confused by your response.
"Keeping the soil cool and retaining moisture is the result of chop (if the height is 'excessive') and drop. " That's what I said in my last reply.
I'm not focused on soil creation with chop & drop but it is a happy side effect of the mulching process in my context & I'm not complaining.
Each to their own I suppose.
Congrats for doing this so long as well, just like a lot of us out there. 😉
@@RobsAquaponics Oh, ok, I understood you implied the opposite. :)
The guru of gardening/farming, Masanobu Fukuoka, didn't compost, spread fertilizer, spray pesticides, herbicides, fungicides. He stopped, observed, asked, "What is nature doing?" He did chop/drop. But he kept growing all year, one plant after another. This way the soil was always active, getting richer.
Fukuoka would understand mob grazing, had he ranched. He would have seen how the grasses were "harvested" by the herbivores in a way that benefited the grasses and built up the soil. He would have noticed how the birds spread out the dung, fertilizing the various grass species. He would have appreciated the complex plant mix in the pasture. He would have pulled out a few to examine the root structure, the soil organisms health. He would have known the foundation of all growth is the soil.
Do you ask yourself: Is the soil getting richer naturally? Have I found a way to allow that? Have I stayed out of the way of nature?
I have
My garden is on this level for sure And I'm 33
Perfect pH
@Huxley Harter If the primary objective for gardening/growing is harvest of food, then go to the primary source of fertility, soil health. How many growers constantly monitor their soil health? Take care of the soil, the soil takes care of the crops, and crops take care of us.
buildings and roadways aren’t natural but we use them anyway
Great topic and great explanation. I really enjoyed this one, my dude!
I'm in the high desert, southern California. I have a raised bed garden, with hardware cloth bottomed wooden boxes. Chop/drop almost everything, with a good inch of compost, followed by a heavy woody mulch for moisture retention. We add more throughout the year as needed. Whenever we chop/drop, we add compost layer. Worms are happy, (nightcrawlers for aeration at subsurface, red wingers for composting), and plentiful in all boxes. We use kitchen scraps, buried sometimes, for the worms. So, kinda do a little of both methods. The soil is very rich, and holds moisture well. Thanks for a good "starter discussion video". You definitely sparked a conversation!
Just gotta say I stumbled upon your videos recently and really appreciate the the culture you foster in the comments section. I leave your videos feeling challenged and thinking on the matter only to come go the comments section finding many other people who are expressing their own thoughts and challenging what you challenged us with. The amount of steel sharpening steel is fantastic and would not be without tour thoughtful videos. Thank you for what you do :)
My personal experience is little but I’ll be chopping and dropping a small plot of weeds and applying it on my garden (just before they flower so no seeds!). I’m still new to gardening and from what I’ve gathered from the comments this is a very good way to foster a diverse soil ecosystem via the decomposers and their excrements. Furthermore, I think chopping and dropping with a worm tea or compost tea sprayed on it will add a boost to decomposition and maybe throwing a layer of woodchips on top will provide increased decomposition of the plant matter.
Thanks for all your hard work and sharing Diego! I love your podcast too!
Hey Diego, here in central Virginia, I like a hybrid approach. It also depends what your plans for the beds are for the next few months. After last row crop for the season and before first frost I like to plant a heavy clover cover crop, or a similar crop, cut and let lay to start to decompose and then compost over it for the winter. I have found that the cover crop helps bring bugs and worms to the surface to do their thing before I put a heavy layer of compost. Kind of a jumpstart I guess. I may be wrong but it seems to work for me. Thanks for the videos. Keep up the good work
I think covering the previously chopped layer with compost,and planting your seeds in that is a good idea. That would mitigate the problems with plant matter decaying on the surface.
No slugfest =)
SE Louisiana here... definitely compost!! Great vid Diego. You've earned my subscription. Keep them coming.
Thanks for this -- I'm loving the thought exercises, the analytics, and the equally thoughtful community commentary. Psyched to keep learning from you all. :)
Well on s TX where we can go 50 days of no rain. Chop and drop covers my ground and it's still manageable for fall planting. I also grow Sweet potatoes to cover the ground for our summer
Excellent video. I am expanding my garden with a silage tarp over the grass. 32 by 60 feet. I intend to leave it tarped for eight weeks then plant a cover crop until spring. I was intending to do chop and drop, tarp it for six or more weeks, compost on top and plant. You have me rethinking that scenario. I may just compost the cover crop, tarp for a few weeks, cover with cardboard, compost and cover the whole thing with landscape material between the rows.
This is a good topic as I have been thinking about both of these methods for an area I will be working on. In your context, with a very dry climate, composting would make more sense where you can control the breakdown of material and maybe add other materials to it. I know you have access to horse manure, so mixing the terminated cover crop with the horse manure should give a better final result. The goal will be to both improve the soil and bring in beneficial insects and pollinators.
This year I will do an experiment on a 1000 sq ft area using Sunn Hemp and Sorghum Sudan glass and maybe borage. (not intermixed) My thought is to terminate the crop by cutting and mulch it up with my riding mower (which has a mulch kit) then cover it with a tarp for 4 to 6 weeks during the end of July through August. In September I will plant winter wheat or winter rye. Next year I will cut that up and see what the soil looks like. Comparing the different cover crops and their impact on the soil. This area has poor soil with a mix of grass and lawn weeds. Since I will be doing an initial tilling of the area, I'm thinking about tilling in some partially aged horse manure at that time. (Stall cleanout actually so it contains the pine shavings that is used as a bedding material to soak up the urine)
Northern Illinois
Hi Diego I'm in the UK, I'm trying cover crops this year for the first time. I'm using field beans clover and fenugreek. I'm intending to pick the tops of the field beans for cooking during the winter months and in the spring chop the cover crops down and plant sweetcorn and squash in the ground leaving the cover crops as a mulch and weed suppression. Hoping that will improve my soil in the winter and provide resources for the sweetcorn and squash in the spring and summer.
Wow those are extremely in dept video, I LOVE IT man ! Thanks !
I’m new to garden and have been reading as much as possible on the subject. Thank you I will try both methods and decide what what works better
For us.
I totally agree with you I'm a first-year gardener and I already have a compost pile going and trying to get the most production out of my beds as I can material I'm composting is the leftover material after harvesting a crop unless it has seeds or disease I am composting it.
I was in the process of trying to figure out how to organize my growing area and my cover crop area in a garden that I am managing for the next 6 months. It is one uniform area (no beds) that has been tilled a couple of times to kill the spring weeds to prepare for planting. It had no winter cover crop and needs organic matter. I had thought that I would plant 1/2 in cover crops and the other half in food crops, but could not figure out where to do successive plantings. Your last comments gave me the solution, I think. Now, after viewing this informative video, I think that I will do the whole garden in beds, 4' X 25' and plant half of each bed in the crop and the other half in cover crops and when I need to plant successive crops, for example, to have an extended corn harvest, or to extend the harvest of summer squash, I will chop down the cover crop in the next part of the bed and plant it in food crops. I will use the above ground cover crop residue as mulch on the former food cropped area of the bed, which will probably still be in food crops. Since there will likely be soil showing through the mulch, I may try to broadcast more cover crop seed through the mulch after I harvest the crop. The cover crop will mostly be used to inhibit weed growth, as well as to enrich the soil and prevent nutrient leaching. I live in TN and plan to use a mix of buckwheat, iron clay pea, and sunflower as cover crop.
To build soil with chop and drop, you need a third step. Chop, Drop, and cover. Either with plastic, or most ideally compost or thick mulch where available or appropriate.
You know what I cover mine with
I cover mine with chop n drop
chop fast decaying matter like comfrey and then cover with high silica grasses 👍
@@michaelg8642 There's no need to cover comfrey once chopped. It is gone within days. It is my sole chop and drop crop and when I drop it, it is several inches deep. Within a week all that's left are a few stems. If I pick it up after 2 days of ground contact, the variety of beneficial insects beneath it are impressive. Covering it would suppress those insects ability to do their job correctly. It would build up too much heat. The forest floor has no cover over it and look how gorgeous things work
Hey, great video. I like to use clover and other small, thick, lush crops for cover. They seem to break down faster due to them not having thick or woody stems, and it's thick enough to provide better ground coverage when chopped than some others. With that being said, I usually compost my cover crops while adding carbons throughout (I bag leaves from previous years). Though I believe it would be nearly equal in time, if I were to just leave the crops, a well established compost is hard to beat in speed.
At 2x speed it's not a long video. My thoughts are, build up the soil with compost and use mulch with the bigger plants. After the season leave the mulch for winter. Recently i bought a ''chaff cutter'' or ''hache paille'' for mulching/composting. Awesome machine. Don't know if you can find that in america...
You can find anything in America
I'm thinking that would be similar to my little electric chipper/shredder. It'll take dry leaves, long grass, and twigs and sticks up to about the size of my thumb. If I'm willing to sharpen the blades when I'm done, it also makes quick, if dusty, work of large pieces of biochar.
Chop and drop sounds great, firstly! I sow covercrop over the wintertime,too. But I´m totally with Charles Dowding, that decaying material attracts slugs. So I cut my covercrops, feed it to my canin and then put it on the compost. After that,I put the compost back on the beds.
I do chop and drop with flowers and pollinator attractors like Mexican sunflower. I drop it and move it a little bit to a place where I don't want plants this season. That's how I do my spacing. Strips of stalks in the empty space. I broadcast seed everywhere and when I water, the seeds that fell on the chop and drop tend to wash away onto the rest of the bed for the most part or I can also just not drop any seeds there if i slow down a bit. I make compost pits here and there to act sort of like a no-turn pile but sort of like a french drain and sort of like a work farm and I put live mushrooms in them so they'll grow more mushrooms and that justifies the work of moving the material and burying it. I have heavy clay and it allows infiltration when I get a very heavy rain. I also chop and drop or chop and compost my excess herbs like dill that spread all over. I allow the birds to eat some of the seeds if they want and I don't have to harvest any more seeds than I want to by hand. The herbs that land in a place that looks nice, I just don't cut em down. I also do use about an inch of woodchips as mulch everywhere and I cover up my chop and drop stubble with a very thin layer of woodchips so everything looks sort of neat as far as the bed goes but it looks a bit more random and wild as far as where the plants are. My beds are bordering my lawn so it has a nice contrast against the uniform neat rectangle look of the grass.
Great thought provoking video, thank you. I adore composting but also value chop and drop here in the UK, especially as you say, in forest garden situations. Initial thoughts for us in our damp conditions are that in the short term, chop-and-drop reduces soil erosion from wind and rain and carbon evaporation by protecting the soil from the elements. I imagine that chop and drop may produce less gases as a result of anaerobic digestion than composting, because the conditions for anaerobic digestion are more likely to occur in a compost if badly managed. It may also encourage the proliferation of fungi, whose' communication and nutrient sharing networks take years to develop. Fungi can digest rock and share it's minerals with plants in exchange for sugars. Having actively rotting materials in your soils encourages this. We actually mulch all of our beds with wood chip which and individual plants often with grass and as you say, does this far more effectively. The surface are of our gardens is so huge that in the UK at least, chop and drop/mulching offers worms the opportunity to pull material into the soil and mix it up but it takes years to even get the soil alive again, let alone to see soil build.
I suppose that a big part of chop and drop is really about changing our thought processes. We often put a lot of work into things that we don't need to and chop and drop may be one useful tool in our arsenal.
I tried chop and drop with our tomatoes in our glasshouse once - most of the trimmings self rooted giving me more weeding to do! There is a time and a place for everything!
I can recommend "Teaming with Microbes" and "Teaming with Fungi" by Lowenfells and Lewes as interesting reads regarding soil science and health.
On the urban plots I am working on improving, I tend to compost what I cut, but I'm also planting into my compost piles.
I have built up soil in the beds by harvesting from the walkways and trees, but if I were to grow a cover crop on purpose, I would leave it on the bed it grew in and just mulch on top of it.
Diego, I have done what you described. I built a long compost pile from grass clippings of the adjacent area mixed with imported leaves. When I turned the pile a season later, I left the bottom 2-3 inches on the ground with absolutely no cover to hand plant a new crop into. If the adjacent is sod, I reform the pile in to turn. If adjacent has been used for garden annuals, I spread out the compost about 2" thick and add a new layer of 2"+- grass clipping mulch. This is done in the fall in preparation for spring planting. I hope I can get a chance to converse with you some day.
Chop and drop definitely works in my modest garden, the massive amount of root material that is left to slowly break down has really improved my soil, I will keep doing so every year, most gardeners would also add mulch as it becomes available to increase microbial diversity, be it from fallen leaves, prunings etc. I used broad beans (Fava Beans) last winter with great results. The year before I chopped everything but dug it all back in. I have gone from gutless sand to a decent (not quite) sandy loam with a lively worm population in 3 years, I also added clay granules, which is quite a popular and recommended aid to soil health in the area of Australia I live in...
Fantastic discussion. I agree with you wholeheartedly. Composting is such a fun, deliberate process that it should be done proactively for the discipline and soil creation benefits. Chop and drop is great for soil coverage over winter, or if you have a massive monoculture farm.
I live in Québec Canada zone 5 urban garden 400 feets gardening
I chop and drop before the snow in october
In spring time I take all the dry stock on the soil (I dont have a lot) and I put it in my vermicomposting in my house (5 containers 40 litres full of worms) that a very very fast composting for me its the best easy way
I always enjoy your videos thank you I learn so much
Yeah the evaporation is a problem. Chop in drop is said to be done in wet season ideally in Australia. I remeber Ben Falk saying in Inhabit documentary that he was chop and drop but it dried out the big benefit came when animals grazed the material. The question in my mind is are you really getting full benefit of cover crop unless it grows to maturity and dries out with roots in ground. I was listening to regenerative ag podcast with John Kempf and one guest was talking about fertility in soil lasting longer if not plowing under green cover crops and letting them mature out. Added benefit is you get seed for next years cover crop.
I agree with previous comments. I've viewed the vegetable material as a mulch to keep weeds from growing. We are just trying to switch from till to no-till. We are adding mushroom compost and tilling one last time. Then we're going to add a partially decomposed wood chips for a mulch.
We are hoping to be able to mix (or combine) our vegetables. For example, have corn, beans, and peas together.
I also agree for a small scale it seems better for us to bring in compost. We have five acres we use as a pasture. We are switching to paddocks to build the soil. Compost for the 5 acres is not practical for us.
Agree with the drying out part, in the hot climate I’m in the c/d dries out almost immediately and the next drop takes at least a month, in that time the mulch is simply gone. Compost dries out much slower and keeps the moisture in the ground. I use wood chips as mulch and they don’t break down as fast and actually act as good mulch
I learned gardening in the era of Rodale Press and Organic Gardening Magazine when it was new. I love compost piles, and I love to till. You can go "from zero to 90" in one year if you take that first year and develop and maintain good compost piles. I love the process; to turn and wet down my compost piles. When they're done heating up you can throw in some worms, although not necessary. Where I live the grasses are invasive and will grow right through mulch. You have to till and rake, then till and rake some more. Grow a cover crop (while the compost piles are composting) then mow and bag and use in another pile, and till and rake one more time. Then add the year old compost. From there, every year and every crop is different.
Hello Linda 👋 how are you doing today?
Very intresting. Thank you for the tought.
Keep up the good work. Thanks for enlightenment
I never really thought about it before, so for that alone I would like to thank you. I can see a reason to do it both ways depending on what you need to accomplish. In general I agree with you. Composting should give you the most soil for the buck/plant. However I can also see depending on the chop and drop. If it can completely cover the soil and you are going to transplant directly into it, then it could offer a nice weed block. In that case you're not as interested in the value added to the soil as much as the weed suppression. Any added nutrition added is just a bonus.
Agree with a lot of stuff, but disagree with the conclusion. For the record, my latest video talks about this exactly and I think it hits why I disagree so much. "This will change the way you garden, forever" is what it's called, and it talks exactly about this.
Wow that was a really great read. I think I agree with a lot of that. Do you not compost at all then? Do you put kitchen scraps directly in the garden?
@@thediamondmaster9520 I compost garden scraps in a compost pile, mostly because if I put whole food down on the ground I am likely to attract rodents. Some people do just put them down and compost in situ, but I'm not a fan. There is a big difference between chopping and dropping some weeds or green mulch and having rotting tomatoes on the garden beds.
I should also mention that gases are going to be released in both methods. However it is more likely methane gets released in a compost pile than in a flat chop and drop. It will decompose faster in a compost pile for sure, (bacterial driven hot compost), but there are more likely to have anaerobic zones in a compost pile, even a well turned one, than in a small amount of plants on the ground. Just tear up large leaves to prevent anaerobic zones and you are now going to make exclusively CO2 and not methane CH4 which is 30x worse of a greenhouse gas than CO2 is.
The offgassing concern exists for both methods, but I would argue it's more of a concern (potential CH4) in a compost pile than chop and drop.
You aren't comparing the net benefits of the breakdown of organic matter - on the bed or in the compost pile - which is what this video targets. That's where it stops.
You are also assuming that the soil surface isn't covered or replanted in a composting method. I could harvest, compost, and then replant and it would avoid the problem that you are describing.
That being said even in a chop and drop method you are going to have to pull it off the surface to direct seed. I could also argue that a more deeply composted bed could withstand more sun exposure than one that has thinner soil’s.
Or you could just avoid the cover crop, and mulch while growing edibles which is what you are showing in your video.
@@DiegoFooter Definitely agree that if you are adding compost down then you are now no longer systematically mining the nutrient from your soil. But then again, I think the only thing you are changing there is that you are exploding the microbiology in a compost pile, instead of doing it right in the garden instead.
For the chop/drop method, I think you are talking about growing a cover crop specifically as a chop and drop soil builder, and not just using the covercrop as a root exudate solar panel pump. So I think the two methods are slightly different in their goals. I think I actually agree with you that if your goal for your covercrop is exclusively to turn into soil, that you can potentially get there faster by a mass harvest, build a BIG compost pile, run a very hot Berkeley method, turn it into soil super fast, use the soil from the last rotaiton compost to now put down and seed into, and get another crop going immediately. I think that method could turn a given bed into hyper fertile soil very very quickly - and the key component is the fast turnaround of the Berkeley method.
I actually fully agree with you that this is probably the fastest fertility cycle you could get.
And now the question comes down to opportunity cost. Not fertility per time, but fertility per effort - because we can only devote so much time to any given pursuit, and in order to find optimal efficiency/method, then we need to both consider fertility per time, but also bounce that off fertility per human focus time.
The method I was describing, and that I use, is a bit more hands off than constantly doing mass amounts of Berkeley method (turning), and re-seeding. So for my entire property, since I couldn't possible run that method on every food forest bed - I'd simply run out of hours in the day - then I quickly need to start optimizing for fertility method per human focus hour spent. And in that situation, then by far the most efficient method is to keep my green mulch layer as a 24/7 solar powered root exudate pump for as long as possible.
Similarly, it may be possible that instead of berkeley method, the most efficient way to handle all that compost would be a scaled up chicken compost system. That way, even if it takes slightly longer to turn over into soil, the chickens work on it 24/7 and you can scale up a little bigger. For example, if I did end up going your route, then I would definitely need to "hire free labour" in this way from a chicken or something similar.
Really interesting discussion - hope I didn't bore you. I love talkin' shop with someone else who is into this stuff as much as I am. Peace brother.
I'm starting my garden growing cover crops to till in, mulch, and compost before before I start growing. A year to get the compost maturing and the space mulched and hopefully build some soil.
Diego, I appreciate these videos a lot. They are both knowledgeable and fun.
As you've laid out this a/b comparrison I can only aggree with you. I like your down to earth way of presenting too.
I do some "chop and drop" but in conjunction with adding compost and mulch and living mulch, so the chopped and dropped plants stay moist and covered while they decompose. If the only thing on the soil was the chopped and dropped plants, yes it is too thin.
Great conversation. Feel free to keep posting videos as long as you like.
. I think most of your points are valid, but also consider the roots from the cover crop are adding organic matter to to soil, the tops are essentially acting as mulch. Yes it is slower than composting, but also much less labor intensive than composting, especially over a large area.
I used composting to get new beds started but chop and drop in existing beds to maintain/build the soil health (albeit at a slower pace), especially over winter months.
I also live in a temperate climate, different from you, so my cover crops may have a better chance at breaking down before they dry out.
Thanks for getting the discussion started.
I will offer my experience small plot about 1/5 acre with only half of that sunny enough for fruit trees/vegetables. I have a lot of dock and amaranth that comes up around the edge of the property i essentially let grow wild the birds really like hiding in it along with my bunny family that magically has new baby bunnies behind my shed every year. I also have a few sections of lambs ear which grows crazy and has a good bit of biomass, its so fluffy and heavy if i chop it and drop it in a bed i'm preparing or a "compost pile somewhere in the yard" it definitely helps keep the soil moist and protects from sun. I feel most times if i'm just chopping a few handfuls of material it would probably be more beneficial in a designated pile. From what i've seen if its not too much material to drop the sun really just bakes a lot and i feel it can get wasted somewhat whereas if it was broken down in a compost heap you keep those nutrients. just my thoughts
Hi Diego, I live on the S Oregon coast, rains a lot here so very damp, I have a Wood chip garden. Over 200 yards in the last four years.I have lots of friends that do chop and drop in my area. I have found that chop and drop is a breeding Ground for slugs,no Bueno. So I have 1 or 2 compost pile always going.plus it’s nice to be able to add seaweed,rock dust, kitchen scraps, Hot chicken manure and other elements, it also gets hot so burns out any unwanted seeds as long as I flip it occasionally and monitor moisture levels. For me it’s the best way to build my soil.
If you got slugs you have a duck deficiency
I am new to gardening, but thought that chop and drop looked useful only as a mulch toward the beginning of the video, and that is exactly what you concluded! I have a unique situation. I have access to many yards of my wife's customers (she runs the yardwork company we started 7 years ago), and know from years of serving them that they are not doing anything that would make using their materials in my compost a problem.
I chop'n'drop with legumes simply because they get going early in the spring, and by the time I'm ready to plant other stuff in that bed the peas, clover etc can be cut down leaving their valuable roots and nodules in the soil. But the material left on the surface is just mulch.
Thank you! Hybrid way at the end is the winner to me. My chop and drop is more for a mulch then a ammendment. Although close second(and maybe 1B) in a no till setting is because of the root penitration for aeration as well as exudus and breakdown.
I do a hybrid approach myself, chop and drop what is in the beds, and add in grass clipping and not quite finished compost, then cover w chopped fall leaves, mostly oak and maple, to put the beds to bed for winter.The leaves protect and insulate the chopped and compost layers, protect the soil and soil dwellers so they can work on the stuff w soil contact. By spring planting, I can pull back the significantly reduced leaves and plant into happy healthy soil, unable to recognize anything that was under the leaves. Except eggshells, they just don't go away?
Essentially, compost in place over the winter, freeing up my one compost bin for kitchen scraps through the winter
Good frank expression of your thoughts. Towards the end of the video you were getting on to something. Chop and drop around living plants. The latest research I have found talks about photosynthesis as a requirement to build soil. In the forest there is always living plants, and the litter that falls to the ground is in shade. I think chop and drop would work better if plants were immediately planted into the area, and a dry mulch was applied over the chopped material to protect and allow the material to be broken down. It would work better where the soil is already alive with micro organisms and fungi. For a new garden bed on poor soil, it may be necessary to apply a good layer of compost to get it started, or build a lasagne bed and plant into it. We mow our lawn without a catcher (micro chop and drop) and the soil level risies quite quickly. Where I put pavers as a mowing edge, it only takes 1 - 2 years for the soil to be above the pavers. I am sure it is because the lawn clippings fall between the living grass. We have a dry, warm to hot summer, so if we don't cover the soil with living plants or mulch, it turns to dust. Where we have perennial ground cover, the soil stays moist for much longer, requiring less watering. Where there is only mulched, it doesn't dry out as fast as bare soil, but is not as good as where there are plants. So in summary I would say try to keep plants in the soil as much as possible.
I think chop and drop is more viable for mulching trees and bushes. Layers of woody and leafy material piled at the base of a tree breaks down more slowly and is shaded by the tree canopy so it won't necessarily oxidize so quickly. The material that people would chop and drop in a small backyard garden is way too lightweight to meaningfully build soil. Like you said it just leaches out into the atmosphere.
By the way I'm talking from the Sonoran desert, so arid as hell.
I agree with you. Chop n drop is more a warm blanket and compost is a good hot meal. Both have a place I think.
I relate Chop n drop to the cover crop and tilling as the new seed is sown. Did this for years on the farm as we grew up. Leaving it on top as mulch, as well as putting nutrients back in makes sense. The only question is how and why to use each system. Both work. You drew me in with the title and I dropped out as soon as I realized what you were doing..
Nice in depth analysis. I’ve often thought that if the chop material does not make a good ground contact it will not keep moisture, it just dries out and becomes like top mulch which does have some benefit to keep the sun from baking the soil and lowering the air current to the soil, But the cover crop gets so dried out that it can blow away and sitting dried up on top of soil does not add alot of life. So I think it takes goof soil contact to make it breakdown plus it’s a cold compost process rather than hot compost
I really like your idea near the end of a hybrid approach! We are regenerating an old, 100 acre apple orchard. You always have great insight man!
I both direct seed and transplant into my hugelculture (sp) bed. Lots of precise placement due to size limitations vs desired crops. I mulch heavily and enjoy making compost/compost tea so have no plans to use covers. I make and use bushels of compost which is added to feed and improve structure and water infiltration/retention. The hugel bed holds water amazingly well. If I had traditional and large garden I think the benefits of armor on the soil to protect erosion regulate the sun from baking the biology out of the soil and holding moisture are worth the effort. One could use a rake to remove the biomass for planting with their seeder/paper pot machine then throw it back on when done.
I agree it's best for orchards and forests, but specifically ones in a wet climate. Not as efficient here in the summer, the dropped plants often just get parched and dry out in the summer. The only time I do chop and drop in my garden beds is when I plant potatoes or squashes. But I will pile a bunch of other organic matter and finished or mostly finished compost on top of it.
I use chop and drop only and have no need to compost anywhere else since I would have to double move the bulky materials. It has taken me some time to get it right but I have great success doing so. When you layer it correctly brown green brown green you get the compost once it is done and in the in-between you get mulch and green manure which is the water you talked about. It leaches into the soil loaded with microbes because they live in the water/sap. The worms and beetles and such eat/poop and die in the material leaving it rich and weed less:]
I started composting before I even discovered the idea of chop and drop. I love composting! Turning the piles is definitely hard work, but is well worth it, in my opinion.
I really like the length of this video. I like 10-25 min videos to listen 🎧 to when I’m doing chores.
I don't do not do much Chop n Drop here in the Mojave Desert, all I did do was MULCH. Sometimes I bury scraps in my soil, but lately I have moved and I am trying new approach's. I have a planter that is nothing but back to Eden, course mulch and some Newspaper stacked in square to act as moisture retention for shrubs n trees. In this planter I have mixed in Bi annuals and annuals as well and decretive and edible plants. So its a poly culture, and so far its working well and has beauty and functionality for a front yard garden spot.
My Row crops are much different, they are geared to production which means I have to input compost. I have no time for cover crops unless were going to eat on them as well. I use containers to extend my growing season but everything dies come Mid June and July, August I start to gear up for Fall plantings.
My thought is I do not want my production row's to have Nitrogen tied up that could be working to produce food. My space is so small that I have to keep them in efficient production, Summer heat is not conducive to an effective summer cover crop.
Previously I used raised beds and mulched them heavily, but I have never really had great production with them.
Great video, I like that you called a 20 minute video really long. I myself prefer 10mins plus or why bother. I learned a lot as usual, thanks for making the videos.
I agree with you. The chop and drop is slower and it does not really yeal compost as posting does. Thank you for helping me to think about the whole idea.
Using both here in zone 3 western Canada. With 100 growing days a year we juggle. We don't do cover crop for biomass really but to get more friable soil, with better water retention (we are a cold desert, very little precip), to aerate the clay. And we do composting also, but again with a small season getting good compost takes a lot of time. So we do both and trust our land and our instinct.
Our season is finished and I have sowed cover crops mid summer, they are good size now and will be killed very soon by the weather. We have also covered the soil on other beds with leaves, grass clippings, then a thin layer of compost and finally wood chips.
We'll see what happens in late spring when we can start working again in our garden (about 1000 sq ft). Our crops are abundant and of very good quality. We are a very sunny country and our aquifer is connected to a river so no shortage of water. Water is crucial to break down material quicker.
I agree! I tried out chop & drop in a sandy site. Slow & the biomass is in the way when you want fast accumulation of soil. Composting leads to fertile hotspots. But they dissapear faster as you rebuild them. Trenchcomposting, doubledigging, burrying lasts a lot longer. I think of you want to build soil without bringin it from outside of your garden, you have to consider perennials. Berrys, bushes, trees in addition to your covercrop and veg. In my case two giant oak trees steal every bit of fertility from my soil. Sad but so it cannot evaporate. And the wood &leafs bring more biomass to my compost & planting holes (1meter deep with spiral drill and filled with watever).
I get it. A pile is fast and gives you a great product. I do alot off chop n drop as mulch. From weeds and comfrey to a bag mower of grass clippings. It's free mulch! I also ad coffee grounds and natural forest understory. Working for me in zone 6.
I'm not sure anybody is doing the C&D version you discribe. At least, I have never read about it or seen it discribed like that in YTvideos (unless when done on a big farm scale). I do C&D with stuff that I weed or prune or cut (gras). I use the chopped stuff as mulch so I'm actually quite happy if it takes a while to decompose (but, as the soil gets better by adding organic matter the soil life gets better at decomposing and also "more hungry" - it decomposes faster. And the critters want more, faster :D
I also have a compost pile. things that I don't want to put directly in garden beds I through in the compost bins (slow, no turning...).
great videos！Diego，following your advice I am growing sudangrass this year on very rocky and dry soil. I was going to chop and drop for a few years to improve soil until this video. What is a long time inexpensive strategy to improve this rocky soil of 30 hectares of land. Thank you.
Nature's way is similar to chop and drop, also it will help reduce weed growth and also retain some moisture in the soil during hot days.
I chop n drop but keep the cover crop growing. The chop feeds the critters and covers the soil to help retain moisture. If you chop and remove. I believe all your critters (soil life) will also leave the site. Great convo. Love the shows!!
I agree with everything you made points on. I'm in central Maine, zone 4b. We have a very short growing season and a wet season at that. This doesn't work well because the plant matter can actually go anaerobic and turn into a horrible slime...... I think this is from a combination of things. A wet growing season, a SHORT season, and a summer that will normally only reach 90s for a week during the year. If you don't use enough plant matter, which would help with this issue, then you have weeds growing through. My short season also limits what types of plants could be used for chop and drop, and by the time it is ready, you can only plant a few things into it, which would mostly be smaller seeded crops. Just some of my thoughts and observations from my small market farming.
I see chop and drop more like a mulch, but I usually apply compost or vermicompost and then chop and drop to keep the humidity and prevent direct solar light on the soil. Also, prevent wind erosion. I am also in a tropical dry forest climate, so I have to preserve all the humidity I can.
Hi Diego, good questions. I think that an answer to one of your questions was answered when I have been collecting dry cow pat's. After removing them with a fork, the worms are usually a half dozen to a dozen. Now the worms are doing the work of aerating the soil and the innoculant from the cow's gut is getting into the soil too. If you rotate the compost (like cow's rotate around a farm), you can build stronger heavy feeder plants on the rotation and follow with traditional rotations of nitrogen fixers or root crops where the chopped plant roots have broken down. It seems like the cover crop produces two different benefits - below ground aeration and nitrification and above ground nitrogen that is more valuable feeding a condensed area of growth. The concentration of heat from the well broken down internal part of the compost is the give away, I think. Just like the area under the dry cow pat.
Do both. If you are monocropping, perhaps it becomes an either or question. For example, planting comfrey under trees and doing several chop and drop during the growing season is a great way to mulch and cycle some of the minerals that wash past the tree roots. To build soil, add mulch and compost from outside resources.
I frequently chop and drop weeds if I notice them while harvesting a few veggies. My hands are already full and I want to get into the kitchen. So break off or pull that weed and leave it there. When I am focusing on weeds, I have my wheelbarrow or compost bucket with me. Those weeds are probably going in the compost.
I get that you are addressing cover crops, which is a small monocrop in the home garden. There is no perfect right or wrong way. IMO, a mixed approach will serve you well, and provide diverse opportunities for soil biology.
smiles "long videos" Diego you know I ain't going to Tik Tok for chop n drop :D:D
Interesting conversation which does spark thought for me.. I think for me its a question of time of decomposition vs benefit. While I agree that there is value in mimicking natures system of allowing organic matter to decompose in place, I would argue that to do it in a garden it would appear to be to long of a process to see instant benefits in the next crop. After all the goal for me is to feed and grow in quick and repeatable intervals. I would think your benefit would be better if you use that matter in a compost pile which when combined with other ingredients could provide a greater benefit to your crops, especially when purposely directed to areas of your garden. The other concern I have here on my island of Bermuda, is that leaving large amounts of leaves or organic matter to decay on the ground creates a nesting ground for snails in our humid climate which them creates a bigger issue. Good video.
Chop n drop covered with compost that came from your land, so the 2 would work together, we have lots of white clovers in our yard and garden to encourage the bees, when I mow 3 acres I use a leaf vacuum to capture all grass and carbon possible, which I mix with bedding/manures from the hogs, chickens and rabbits mixing sawdust for more brown, we’re in Missouri on a urban homestead about 80 % of our food we grow, we’re getting more efficient because of videos like this, really helps us fine tune our system to be more self reliant,,Thanks Diego Footer, been listening to you and others for years, I am Grateful for your contribution
I do both actually. I believe in keeping my soil covered at all times. It keeps it soft and moist. It depends more on what I'm growing as to what I do. I think the decision has to be based the type of soil you're dealing with.
Agreed. Started chop and drop last year on very poor soil with very little in the way of worms. I started chopping grasses mainly onto the vegetable garden and some trees. The grasses were broken down very quickly, but there is lots of it so I simply put more grass mulch. By the end of the middle of the rainy season(about3 months) the plants and vegetable grew much faster than they did pervious seasons with no mulch. A lot of critters broke down the grasses, including termites. Trust me, termites quickly break down grasses in a week, so they kept me on my toes each week, and they take some grass into the ground, add air into the soil. Luckily, the termites haven't started eating my plants, so that's not a concern (yet). The soil has turned darker. Any yes, the grasses do do store moisture and thus I don't water as much as I used to, but the plants are thriving.
During the dry(winter) season, I applied goat manure to the plots. Now I am back to chop and drop once again since the rainy season has come around once again.
The big miss here is the stuff going on below ground. The true soil building benefits are coming from the root system and its interaction with the soil microbiome. The above ground parts are inconsequential and are a by-product. Do whatever with the above ground parts that makes your system easier to manage. Just make sure you have roots all the time.
Again, it's all about the below ground action. Terminating the CC is just part of the cycle. Where you put it or move it is somewhat irrelevant.
Yes, the root/soil/organism interaction is critical, I don't disagree. But then that plant has to go, then what?
Playing devil's advocate... then should you ever add compost to a bed or mulch the soil surface? Or are just growing plants on the surface.
@@DiegoFooter The point of a cover crop (from what I understand) is that you leave a deep/wide root system in the soil after you chop them, which will feed the worms and microbiome (enriching the endorhizosphere) by this 'rhizodeposition'.
I've read studies that show that adding compost on top of a sandy or clay soil improves the soil structure. Clay soil becomes more porous by the releasing Lignin that separates the dense particles in clay soil and improves sandy soils with the Humic acids that fill the large spaces between dry sand particles, making it LESS porous and holding on to more water in the process. Additionally, some fungi are ligninolytic and break down lignin (releasing CO2).
with chop and drop you will lose nitrogen too and will not kill pathogens. Ive used it and wont do it again, you have all the dry stalks when you want to plant and its anoying. also if you have a fall cover crop you will get a lot of green for compost in a season when you usually have to much brown. so I think the best is cut and compost it and cover the bed with older compost so its mulched during the winter
I have several garden beds which I do different approaches. My front garden is just plants and flowers. I mulch it with hardwood mulch I buy. In the spring the daffodils come up. I follow with annual flowers. In the fall I snip those annuals to the ground and mulch. The backyard garden I grow tomatoes I and mulch with grass clippings. Toward the middle of the summer I grow a cover crop around the tomatoes.
My butterfly garden I make circular bins with half inch hardwood cloth for composting leaves over fall and winter.
My potato garden I grow a cover crop in the fall and add more circular compost bins. In the spring I sift compost and bag it for my containers. I spread the compost over the rest of the bed and now it. I plant the potatoes after a month of decomposition.
I used to chop and drop but because I like to decide where to put the love so I have now at the ripe old age of 71 I have gone back to the bin system and can also use the heat that builds up in the bins to germinate seeds and strike cuttings especially in the colder weather, a very low energy heating supply and it take me about an hour to turn a cubic metre of compost from one bin to the next.
Just a thought (please feel free to comment) if you choose oats as a cover crop (winter crop) and when the plants are mature but before they go to seed, simply lay a thick tarp over the top. The crop dies, the earth worms move in en masse, the sword material is softer than sorghum, so it should compost very quickly. Light surface only till and your direct drilling a few weeks later...
I live in zone 9b in central coast california. I agree that when you chop and drop here it dries up and blows away. I am trying to build a system that can be doing both growing a crop in a bed and a cover crop in a bed next to it. Still trying to figure out the details and how to irrigate. The theory would be when the cover...maybe sorghum sudan grass is done seed it with a food crop and then roll it or mow it and use it a mulch. then use three rows of drip tape to irrigate. In my area water is rare so I need to control it and protect it with the cover crop mulch.
Thank you for your thoughts Diego, 20 minutes for a topic such as this is perfect. Chop and drop has always appealed to me but like many commenters here, I'd get a slug problem too serious to grow anything. The same goes for mulching. I tried chop n drop in the non food areas, with no improvement. Fresh cuttings attract slugs, the cuttings dry off and shrivel away to nothing. So this year I decided to invest in good compost enriched with terra preta, so I can finally grow some veg and more biomass for composting in the non food areas. I'm interplanting heavily to maximise shading and will use no dig from now on, as practised by Charles Dowding. So it's leaving the roots in the soil and composting for me.
Not a slug problem a duck defecency problem
If your soil is healthy enough you can shrink the square foot gardening approach for more shading also when it's greens I would harvest the under cannopy of greens or large leaves for new ones to take there place
Also if space is important, I would consider growing vertically
@@jerrymaxey782 My Dog thinks so too 🦆🍽️🐕!!!
@@jerrymaxey782 ...either way in some environments slugs will do enough damage that you end up with better crops by removing a perfect setting for them.
Afaik the amount of minerals in the plants stays the same, no matter of you use C&D or Compost. Composting is just faster than C&D in dissolving the plants, thus making the minerals become available more quickly. To dissolve the plants even more quickly than Composting you could even use animals to eat up all the plants and then shitting all over the place.
The big benefit of C&D is how freaking EASY it is. It doesnt take much time and effort to do it.
Composting is practically additional work that you have to put in to accelerate the process of dissolving the plants.
Hi, in UK with allotment plus small garden, , finding mulching is working out for me, esp with the dry summers lately, and keeping the weed germination down, , the overgrown crops have accidentally become a source of chop n drop, . Right now the allotment has no compost heap as such, ➡️ whatever can't be "dropped" ends up in salvaged plastic barrels sunk into the soil, with stuff planted around them...worms galore under the mulch and the woodlice etc ignore the living plants in favour of the dropped mulch ..
I do both chop and drop and formal compost, though treat chop and drop more as a mulch. And in the summer heat, I'll even just toss down half-finished compost as a mulch when my greens outstrip my browns.
Gabe Brown has this figured out. The best way is to mob graze animals on the cover crops to get that fertile soil. Also the plants pull up minerals from the soil and bring it to the soil surface. Animal poop is the key.
I've heard Elaine Ingham explain, that the temperature in the aerobic compost pile needs to rise a lot, to kill the anaerobic microorganisms in the soil, which is important for optimizing the soil microbiome for crops, because it fosters those beneficial fungi and bacteria and nematodes that work together to deliver nutrients to the plants.
The whole point of chop and drop is to create mulch, not compost or build soil quickly so slow is good! Eventually it will decompose. I then mulch even more on top of that. It saves me bringing in some of the materials I need for mulch. It also creates humidity when it breaks down. The carbon dioxide released also helps the plants. I compost more biomass from the edges of my yard to make compost. I then use that compost to put in holes I dig to plant. Weeds also are keyed to repair deficiencies in that particular area so it helps to have it chopped in place. Again. It's for mulch, not for major soil building. Mulch protects soil from drying out. Especially in a dry climate! Roots break down quickly in my beds! I have edibles growing between the chop and drop.
Hello Connie 👋 How are you doing today?
Hi Diego thanks for the video. What you call compost is "hot composting". During this process about 20-30% of the biomass (organic matter, water, microfauna) gets lots due to heat exchange with the environment. Chop and drop on the other side makes biomass go into a "cold decomposition". Much less biomass is lost as termophilic bacteria is less present and other ones take over which convert the organic matter into solid compounds easily absorbed by the plants. I also don't see the point of transporting all of the chopped matter for composting when you can leave it straight where you chopped it. Like that it can serve more functions and save you lots of back pain!
The stalks and leaves left on the surface serve to protect the soil surface from the sun and the impact of rain drops. Soil isn't built primarily from the relatively thin surface mulch provided by "chop and drop", but from the roots of growing plants. Soil organic matter is improved mostly by the roots left behind and by the root exudates provided by living and actively growing plants (check out the "liquid carbon pathway").
Organic matter provided by compost (or mulch) tends to break down pretty quickly over time (just watch how quickly a compost pile shrinks), and doesn't usually provide much long lasting humus that will remain in the soil for decades or centuries. However, carbon added to the soil by the root exudates of healthy growing plants tends to help form much more stable humus that will last much better over time.
Soil health is improved even more when a wide variety of plants are grown together, as each type of plant provides different types of exudates which feed different beneficial soil organisms, and helps to release different types of nutrients from the soil particles. A very diverse cover crop can also better survive climate extremes and drought than monocultures can.
I find that it's much more efficient to chop your cover crop and then use it in a compost pile. You can control its decomposition more precisely by implementing the correct carbon to nitrogen ratio within your pile. Plus if you remove your cover crop and compost using a thermo turning composting method you speed up the process of decomposing your cover crop. I understand why you would want to use the chop and drop method if you had a large amount of space and composting for all of it was not practical. For small space intensive gardening composting your cover crop is a much more efficient technique.
You also remove any cover for crop pests to live in, reducing crop damage.
@@carlduffin what about removing the beneficial insects as well? The more insects the better because then they can become balanced with enough predators to control the herbivore numbers. It’s easier to provide diversity of plants and feed a diversity of insects in a small scale garden, so I wonder if chopping and dropping is helping to provide a stable habitat that can maintain balance over the years.
Some good points made - I'm trying to cheat and start a garden in March with clay soil by loading compost and manure on top of a cardboard layer in beds - now I'm trying to grow buckwheat and radishes to dig the garden and put life in the soil. But I like the idea of half cover crop and then transferring the veg over and then cover cropping the other side.