I mean... it's basically flat terrain, put a camera on a high stand and from one place you can cover almost quarter of the run. Now put a camera next to the rockgarden section on downhill track and... woooosh that's all for this spot. But still this video is really nice to watch.
Today's XC courses make this look chill. Amazing what modern bikes eat up. Now you have people going to gravel bikes to get a thrill out of simple trails like this again.
Enjoyed watching this, it brought back memories. I got my first MTB in 1988 (a Giant). Todays XC is much more extreme than this 'downhill' it's incredible how things have changed.
I had been riding MTB for about 3 years by this time and Tomac was like a hero. We went to Hunter Mtn in NY 2 weeks after the World Cup and it was the first time I rode lift serviced trails. I was hooked from that moment on. It took another 6 years before I bought my first DH specific bike, a 1999 Kona Stab Dee-Lux. That time was basically the birth of DH riding. John Tomac was the Godfather on Mountain bikes back then. He would race XC on Saturday, then change tires and race the same bike DH on Sunday.
Wow that brings back memories! I raced in the juniors class at that race. Broke my chain coming out of a gnarly section. Coasted down goofing out for the crowd which was massive! Tomac was my hero back then even as a kid coming from Sweden 🇸🇪
@@icyroadwarrior Yes he could. I was in the US in 1996 and did the Redlands bycicle classic stage race (big roadrace) and Tomac was in it. At a stage called Oak Glenn Tomac and I had been cut off from the lead since we didnt have the legs so we had a chat on our way to the finish at the top of that mountain 🙂👍 He is a great guy.
Showing my age but I was there too. And rode the course on a hardtail Zaskar. Still got the muddy number plate in my souvenirs box. Rained all week and was lethal. That off-camber corner at 1:38 was a proper drift lesson. Fun, but sketchy as hell. Best bit was I rode up on the chairlift with Tomac and he signed my GT jersey. And Hans Rey. ✊
@@dinozoiks 😀👌 Cool memories! Tomac is very friendly and a real character! Yes that off camber fast turn was reallly hard. I crashed right there during training and coasted to a stop on my backprotection. If it had been dry I would probably Hurt myself really bad. I rode a hardtail Rocky Mountain 😀🤘
Wow, I reading about Tomac in Mountain Bike Action in 93 and by 96 I had won two races at Plattekill. A perfect role model for the rider. Emulate the skill and the drive and you're on you're way
JT is still a stud on a bike. A few years ago he was out on a training ride with Eli and had a huge get off resulting in fx/dislocation of his elbow. Still rode 90 minutes on single track back to the trailhead where the truck was parked. I still have my '91 Serotta T-Max mtb hanging in the garage. Long stem, no dropper post, you feel like you're going over the bars just sitting on the thing. How those guys went as fast as they did back then is pretty impressive.
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Legend. !!!! i I have managed to mainly useJohn Tomac Kenda tyres on my mountain bike since i got it in 2011. Nevegals, slant 6 and the wife has small block8s on the back of her bike. (All but one week when I had a Conti on the back. )
This is the downhill that I learnt . Also I have a selection of new old stock , Tioga Multi - Control saddles he used , one of which he signed in 1996 for me .
This brings back a LOT of memories. Watching this makes me see just how much more difficult things were on these old bikes by comparison to current bike tech. I currently have a 1997 Specialized Stumpjumper, which I use for city riding only. I couldn't imagine riding a downhill like this on it - not a chance.
I raced amateur in Tomac's era on a fully rigid for a few years, then got a Stumpy in 1996 with FS. Like a magic carpet! But, on the other hand, the courses were totally rideable on the equipment of the time. So I"m not sure it was more difficult, as once everyone had FS and big wheels/tires, the courses just got harder. You could have ridden a lot of XC courses in the 1990s on a modern gravel bike without much of a penalty.
I also drove such a Tioga Disk Wheel in the 90's on my bike. The sound in made was awesome. I had the first model of these Tioga wheels (dark one) and later the transparent second version. It was THE eyecatcher on every trail. I drove it with a XTR M900 rear hub. These Tioga kevlar webbing wheels are hard to find nowadays and very expensive in good condition.
Ahh yes I remember! I had one too, I remember now, one could only build them up on a 36 hole drilling hub! I used a Ultegra 600 road hub that was too narrow on the width! ha ha Please subscribe & share if you like thanks
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And Ned was almost 40, or may have been in 93. A guy named "Tinker", (a Mexican dude with big hair), was also right up there with Tomac and Overand. Those 3 guys always gaped the rest of the field.
aaaah, the time when metabief was one of the top spots of the sport... ❤🙂 incredible to see how the sport evolved, from the downhill to the freeride. 👍
Tell me about it mate! without sounding like a last of the summer wine fan, the 'Old days were the best' , It's true though but they were.....Please subscribe & share if you like thanks
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In some cases, too long IMO. There is a guy flying down hills (these are the early day downhill competition when most riders still rejected rear suspension, and disk brakes), with a short chain stay and a 71 degree head angle. I bet a modern stretch hard tail with a 68-65 degree slack head angle, 29" wheels, can't go down that course as fast as Tomac did here. If we did not build berms, would the bike geometry head angle get steeper? I think it would.
I would think, pretty much, the frame alone costs that much in 94. About $1,500 was the cost of a Ti frame back in those days. A good shifting/brake group-o was about a grand. A set of aftermarket wheels about $600. Seat/post, stem/bars, a Ti bike was about $3000, and they were the high end bikes of the day.
Qué diferencia 30 años después. Las bicis, los recorridos... Actualmente predomina el desnivel y la dificultad tecnica. Entonces era la velocidad y ausencia total de dificultad tecnica. La evolución de las bicis han determinado los recorridos, o viceversa.
Kids don't have the building toys we used to have on the 60's and earlier. Tinker toys, erector set, Lincoln logs, model cars and planes, (including fuel powered COX stuff). So we grew up with what may be the last of that 'building mentality", in the USA. But I can tell you from my own experience in Mt. Bike production in the mid 90's (when they were pretty new), and the business I found using my skills, (which was also a new industry), "Getting involved with a new free enterprise industry",---is where all the big excitement is at. Everybody going for it with their own ideas. That is freedom. Start an industry. (and for God's sake and the sake of mankind, keep government out of it.) :)
@@MD-uu5ntits actually kinda possible. I got a Raleigh Titanium XTR from my dad 3 years ago and learned to ride Enduro on it. Sure you cant Do all those fancy jumps and stuff, but to some extend those old bikes can handle gnarly shit.
Think it was a Road Chain Ring of 52/53 or even bigger like the Kamikaze DH ratios he used to do years before it! Please subscribe & share if you like thanks
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1993 = 😮😬🫣 2023 = green trail PS No disrespect intended, I started mountain biking in the 90’s and remember well how the bikes and tracks were back then!
The geometry looks so proper. We need to find a way to make bikes perform like they do currently but while looking like bikes, not anorexic, engineless motorcycles.
Although I dig hydraulic disk brakes, I am not a fan of today's slack head tube angles, heavy bikes, 29" wheels or single chain ring shifting system. I don't think they turn worth a darn with out a sculptured berm, (because of slack head angles and big wheels), and the gearing runs out at both ends, at grunt and top speed. I think we have entered a irrational generation. Frame geometry is "arts and crafts" bizarre today. Doesn't make any sense to make your trail bike handle like a Harley chopper to me.
I had a 1992 Raleigh Dyna Tech titanium bike, xtr/ xt group set titanium forks, my god that bike could move, still got it hanging in my gym at home, I will never part with it 🚴
I have a lovely welded 95 Nuke Proof Ti 17" Mt. bike, (Mark really got the welding down pat in 95). It may be the most complete vintage Ti. NK bike in existence today. I used to work there in 94/95 as their first machinist. I am the guy who got the hubs to stop breaking. My retailer is younger than me and still rides, so I am getting the forks fixed up and giving it to him for 20 years of us doing great business together. It will probably end up in a Museum after he is done riding it. With Ti forks, you were probably under 21lbs. I think mine is just over 22 with telescopic forks. They are fast bikes. Ti is a special material for hard tails. Doug in Michigan
Nuke Proof do some amazing Ti/ carbon bikes, I absolutely luv them. Michael Cowan who continued the Nuke proof name has stuck to the ethos of original Nuke Proof, they very much are riders choice. Thanks for sharing your story I enjoyed reading it 😁
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Ça pédalait beaucoup pour la DH! 😂 un autre temps. Des freins patins, une largeur du centre bien court. Pas de casque intégral. Une descente qui serait du XCO.
@@mfnd502 Well, I'm in my forties, although I consider myself still young 😅 I think the standard width at that time was around 580 mm, but in the competition videos of those years the handlebars look even narrower. People used to cut them down to 550 or 560, partly because there was an obsession with weight and every gram counted.
![[DRIP] ‘Love, Maybe’ PREVIEW](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/U7hwHp95m1k/mqdefault.jpg)
![[UNCUT]“ฅนตื่นธรรม”ปะทะ“หมอปลา-ปู่มหามุนี-อั๋นโอกิ”สะเทือนกระทรวงเวทมนตร์ Iคนดังนั่งเคลียร์I10 ตค.67](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/peMD_SAkwNc/mqdefault.jpg)
Finally a downhill-course I could ride without killing myself 😂
Assuming you don’t have to ride it on JT’s original bike…
It’s literally a 2” travel hard tail
@@graybollocksjust go really slow
Late 90’s one’s even don’t seem impossible, the ones today are just nuts
It's insane how much better the camera coverage is here compared to what we have today.
I mean... it's basically flat terrain, put a camera on a high stand and from one place you can cover almost quarter of the run. Now put a camera next to the rockgarden section on downhill track and... woooosh that's all for this spot. But still this video is really nice to watch.
Today's XC courses make this look chill. Amazing what modern bikes eat up. Now you have people going to gravel bikes to get a thrill out of simple trails like this again.
i mean that bike is basically a gravel rig of modern times
Enjoyed watching this, it brought back memories.
I got my first MTB in 1988 (a Giant).
Todays XC is much more extreme than this 'downhill' it's incredible how things have changed.
I was thinking the same, if not at the level of 'trail' that gravel bikes can handle.
ok bye
Wow!!! Amazing how the bikes and tracks have changed over time 👍 👍 👍
... looks today like a CROSS COUNTRY race.. 😅
@montecharly122 it's more like cyclo-cross, XC courses these days have rocks and roots.
Lots of flat turns
I had been riding MTB for about 3 years by this time and Tomac was like a hero. We went to Hunter Mtn in NY 2 weeks after the World Cup and it was the first time I rode lift serviced trails. I was hooked from that moment on. It took another 6 years before I bought my first DH specific bike, a 1999 Kona Stab Dee-Lux. That time was basically the birth of DH riding. John Tomac was the Godfather on Mountain bikes back then. He would race XC on Saturday, then change tires and race the same bike DH on Sunday.
Wow that brings back memories! I raced in the juniors class at that race. Broke my chain coming out of a gnarly section. Coasted down goofing out for the crowd which was massive!
Tomac was my hero back then even as a kid coming from Sweden 🇸🇪
he could win cross country, downhill and road bike (1988 USA Nat criterium Champ)
@@icyroadwarrior Yes he could. I was in the US in 1996 and did the Redlands bycicle classic stage race (big roadrace) and Tomac was in it. At a stage called Oak Glenn Tomac and I had been cut off from the lead since we didnt have the legs so we had a chat on our way to the finish at the top of that mountain 🙂👍 He is a great guy.
Showing my age but I was there too. And rode the course on a hardtail Zaskar. Still got the muddy number plate in my souvenirs box. Rained all week and was lethal. That off-camber corner at 1:38 was a proper drift lesson. Fun, but sketchy as hell.
Best bit was I rode up on the chairlift with Tomac and he signed my GT jersey. And Hans Rey. ✊
@@dinozoiks 😀👌 Cool memories! Tomac is very friendly and a real character! Yes that off camber fast turn was reallly hard. I crashed right there during training and coasted to a stop on my backprotection. If it had been dry I would probably Hurt myself really bad.
I rode a hardtail Rocky Mountain 😀🤘
Wow, I reading about Tomac in Mountain Bike Action in 93 and by 96 I had won two races at Plattekill. A perfect role model for the rider. Emulate the skill and the drive and you're on you're way
JT is still a stud on a bike. A few years ago he was out on a training ride with Eli and had a huge get off resulting in fx/dislocation of his elbow. Still rode 90 minutes on single track back to the trailhead where the truck was parked. I still have my '91 Serotta T-Max mtb hanging in the garage. Long stem, no dropper post, you feel like you're going over the bars just sitting on the thing. How those guys went as fast as they did back then is pretty impressive.
Я тоже однажды получил вывих локтя, упав с горы на велосипеде,это очень болезненная штука🤕
30 years ago, man time flies. I got into bikes in 91
The Real Legend of MT.Biking
Yes he sure is, Such a character on the Bike! Please subscribe & share if you like thanks
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And his son is now an mx/sx legend!!. Sick
Johnny T is gnarly! Awesome to see his son Eli tearing it up on 2 wheels as well!
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An absolute character? And an absolute fucking legend I may add. This guy was phenomenal. That's all there is to it
He was amazing! So good! please subscribe to my channel & share if you like
Legend. !!!! i I have managed to mainly useJohn Tomac Kenda tyres on my mountain bike since i got it in 2011. Nevegals, slant 6 and the wife has small block8s on the back of her bike. (All but one week when I had a Conti on the back. )
This is the downhill that I learnt . Also I have a selection of new old stock , Tioga Multi - Control saddles he used , one of which he signed in 1996 for me .
This brings back a LOT of memories. Watching this makes me see just how much more difficult things were on these old bikes by comparison to current bike tech. I currently have a 1997 Specialized Stumpjumper, which I use for city riding only. I couldn't imagine riding a downhill like this on it - not a chance.
I raced amateur in Tomac's era on a fully rigid for a few years, then got a Stumpy in 1996 with FS. Like a magic carpet! But, on the other hand, the courses were totally rideable on the equipment of the time. So I"m not sure it was more difficult, as once everyone had FS and big wheels/tires, the courses just got harder. You could have ridden a lot of XC courses in the 1990s on a modern gravel bike without much of a penalty.
Pretty sure he was on the cover of Mountain Bike Action magazine more than any other rider, even Ned. Wish I still had all my old Magazines......
Crazy how much the bikes and tracks have changed over the years… those narrow bars always give me ptsd!! That would be a blue trail now days!
I also drove such a Tioga Disk Wheel in the 90's on my bike. The sound in made was awesome. I had the first model of these Tioga wheels (dark one) and later the transparent second version. It was THE eyecatcher on every trail. I drove it with a XTR M900 rear hub. These Tioga kevlar webbing wheels are hard to find nowadays and very expensive in good condition.
Ahh yes I remember! I had one too, I remember now, one could only build them up on a 36 hole drilling hub! I used a Ultegra 600 road hub that was too narrow on the width! ha ha Please subscribe & share if you like thanks
Thanks for the Feedback, Really appreciate it a lot! If you could please Subscribe that would be a huge help for me & my new equipment to get more footage on here! Thanks Again!
Can you imagine how rad JT would’ve been on a modern bike!
ヤバイほどカッコいい
Great to see this footage from back in the day.
What an event that was! I flew in to Geneva with my mountain bike, ride the VTT trails in the alps, then spent the last week in Metabief.
Oh man, great to hear David Duffield voice of Eurosport Cycling network. Love listening during the Tour.
The year I started riding mtb.. those were the days. My first bike was full rigid.
I raced at Mammoth Mtn. in '93, it was a treat seeing him and Ned Overand battle it out.
And Ned was almost 40, or may have been in 93. A guy named "Tinker", (a Mexican dude with big hair), was also right up there with Tomac and Overand. Those 3 guys always gaped the rest of the field.
@@EarthSurferUSA Tinker Juarez, he was a badass!
The Tomes had the best style and all around champion
I miss those days for sure
AMAZING Work Thank you.
robert savage out, stinker juarez out, wayne croasdale in.
Just after he took the crown from The OG Ned Overend. Both amazing racers to watch back then.
aaaah, the time when metabief was one of the top spots of the sport... ❤🙂 incredible to see how the sport evolved, from the downhill to the freeride. 👍
Great value, works perfect
He was my first teacher in MTB.
Geometry isn't even appropriate for downhill.
Respect for those pioneers.
90 forever
Tell me about it mate! without sounding like a last of the summer wine fan, the 'Old days were the best' , It's true though but they were.....Please subscribe & share if you like thanks
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Actually Will be a special stuff remake a tioga disc rims 29, looks great
God.blessyou.johntomac
Was at this race World Cup championship @ Bromont Canada
This is the best channel on YT : ))
Thanks please subscribe if not already as want to raise numbers up to get more equipment as got more footage thanks 🤗👍🏻
Mad skills wow !!, impressive!!
And then you get Eli on the motorbike
Hope Eli heals up strong and can come back!
Wow, we have come such a long way. That would be a green trail on a modern bike.
In some cases, too long IMO. There is a guy flying down hills (these are the early day downhill competition when most riders still rejected rear suspension, and disk brakes), with a short chain stay and a 71 degree head angle. I bet a modern stretch hard tail with a 68-65 degree slack head angle, 29" wheels, can't go down that course as fast as Tomac did here.
If we did not build berms, would the bike geometry head angle get steeper? I think it would.
@@EarthSurferUSAcan’t really compare with different tech
This rear Wheel was in This Year very interssting and possible to buy. My First Bike was a Moongoose Iboc Team in a very Nice Grey.
My first real mountain bike was a '94 Raleigh Tomac MTI-1000 titanium frame XC bike.
It cost US $1800 in 1994.
I would think, pretty much, the frame alone costs that much in 94. About $1,500 was the cost of a Ti frame back in those days. A good shifting/brake group-o was about a grand. A set of aftermarket wheels about $600. Seat/post, stem/bars, a Ti bike was about $3000, and they were the high end bikes of the day.
If this was DH, what did XC look like?
Great rider, but a very different downhill than we have today.
Goat,,Lemond, Phinney, Hampsten, hell all of the team 7-11 yes even Bobkie
Legend!
This looks like cyclo-cross with a slight downhill gradient. Probably the bike field where there have been more changes/improvements
Qué diferencia 30 años después. Las bicis, los recorridos... Actualmente predomina el desnivel y la dificultad tecnica. Entonces era la velocidad y ausencia total de dificultad tecnica. La evolución de las bicis han determinado los recorridos, o viceversa.
I can't argue with that. But I can't agree with it either. Tomac was the King. The guy who won everything.
LEGEND
Is Eli Tomac father?
Super tomac
Yes, one of the best characters in MTB ever, and a lovely guy.
That’s wild…they put an aero disc on the rear wheel just like TT bike lol The 90’s really were crazier in terms of MTB tech
Kids don't have the building toys we used to have on the 60's and earlier. Tinker toys, erector set, Lincoln logs, model cars and planes, (including fuel powered COX stuff). So we grew up with what may be the last of that 'building mentality", in the USA.
But I can tell you from my own experience in Mt. Bike production in the mid 90's (when they were pretty new), and the business I found using my skills, (which was also a new industry), "Getting involved with a new free enterprise industry",---is where all the big excitement is at. Everybody going for it with their own ideas. That is freedom. Start an industry. (and for God's sake and the sake of mankind, keep government out of it.) :)
Pedaling on a DH Track! Crazy sh.t😂! Farmer John , Legend
You'd be in for a shocker if you showed to up a DH race today expecting the track to be like this.
Too right mate, how things have changed so much 👍🏻
Local XC race courses are more advanced than this, let alone WC XC.
Well to be fair the tech has changed to not exactly like comparing old gymnastics to modern gymnastics
You couldn't ride modern courses on those bikes. A gravel bike would be better than those old DH bikes.
@@MD-uu5ntits actually kinda possible. I got a Raleigh Titanium XTR from my dad 3 years ago and learned to ride Enduro on it. Sure you cant Do all those fancy jumps and stuff, but to some extend those old bikes can handle gnarly shit.
our xc regionals is the same has the 93 downhill world cup
These are gravel bikes now
700c Wheels nowadays whereas here they were 26" but nearly!
26 and 700 are virtually the same circumference
@@JoshuaTootellWhat? 700 are exactly 29", not even close to 26.
Check out the size of that front chain ring. Need some big thighs to move that thing.
Think it was a Road Chain Ring of 52/53 or even bigger like the Kamikaze DH ratios he used to do years before it! Please subscribe & share if you like thanks
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Holy shit,you're actually right.Makes all the MTBs of today look wimpy.And then the rear disc wheel.
His son may not be riding a bicycle, but John's offroad ability surely goes to Eli too.
How things change.
Dudes flying
Eli traded in pedals for a 450.
Yep, wanted something with shocks!
check out those narrow bars!
Nessa época era aro 26 de folha simples, não tinha aero parede dupla....o ciclista tinha que ser bom mesmo
It's like a modern day gravel bike
93 looks like the 70’s.
.. "Back in the day" when your balls weighed more than your entire bike 😅
1993 = 😮😬🫣
2023 = green trail
PS No disrespect intended, I started mountain biking in the 90’s and remember well how the bikes and tracks were back then!
Thing is, although it isnt as technical as modern courses, the tech of the bikes at the time kind of made riding them as hard and scary in my opinion.
@@teamdoagood point
This is literally the gravel bike world champs non?! 😅
The geometry looks so proper. We need to find a way to make bikes perform like they do currently but while looking like bikes, not anorexic, engineless motorcycles.
Although I dig hydraulic disk brakes, I am not a fan of today's slack head tube angles, heavy bikes, 29" wheels or single chain ring shifting system. I don't think they turn worth a darn with out a sculptured berm, (because of slack head angles and big wheels), and the gearing runs out at both ends, at grunt and top speed. I think we have entered a irrational generation. Frame geometry is "arts and crafts" bizarre today. Doesn't make any sense to make your trail bike handle like a Harley chopper to me.
Back when people cared about mountain biking...
I had a 1992 Raleigh Dyna Tech titanium bike, xtr/ xt group set titanium forks, my god that bike could move, still got it hanging in my gym at home, I will never part with it 🚴
I have a lovely welded 95 Nuke Proof Ti 17" Mt. bike, (Mark really got the welding down pat in 95). It may be the most complete vintage Ti. NK bike in existence today. I used to work there in 94/95 as their first machinist. I am the guy who got the hubs to stop breaking. My retailer is younger than me and still rides, so I am getting the forks fixed up and giving it to him for 20 years of us doing great business together. It will probably end up in a Museum after he is done riding it. With Ti forks, you were probably under 21lbs. I think mine is just over 22 with telescopic forks. They are fast bikes. Ti is a special material for hard tails. Doug in Michigan
Nuke Proof do some amazing Ti/ carbon bikes, I absolutely luv them.
Michael Cowan who continued the Nuke proof name has stuck to the ethos of original Nuke Proof, they very much are riders choice. Thanks for sharing your story I enjoyed reading it 😁
O DH de antigamente parece o XC de hoje.
It was so much more fun with light full rigid bikes without all the near vertical rock garden stuff...
imagine JT in his prime with today's technology!!
This trail is gravel bike worthy now.
JT got his courier bars on
Put his drop bars on and it'd look like a cyclocross race...
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Wow, didn't know they had carbon fiber frames in '93.
Carbon fiber frames go as back as 1978 with Assos making the first prototype.
Cuando no había doble suspensión, había qué tener unos huevotes para practicar down hill, de hecho ni existía el termino
tights and tucked
Today we calls it Cross Country
Cross Country has much more up-hill, (Sans the flat ground, any loop is 50% climbing.). But today, you have electric bikes. lol
I'm shit at banked turns and drops... so I guess I could've been a very much decent DH rider in the early 90s
So many mtb champs came from bmx
Tons did yes, thanks for watching
Stud just like his boy Eli
this is downcountry
So fun not like today
Los de ahora le das una rígida y empiezan a llorar jajaj
Todays MTB riders would not take a bike with that few suspension travel to ride to the ice cafe 2 blocks away.
wow, "downhill" was a bit different back in the day...
No 29ers here 😊
wanna see mike kings winning run too
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Ça pédalait beaucoup pour la DH! 😂 un autre temps. Des freins patins, une largeur du centre bien court. Pas de casque intégral. Une descente qui serait du XCO.
Gravel, Cross country
26" wheels and no rear suspension
Yes mate the good olde day's 👍🏻
Holy hell they were bad back then.
Um ok
Downhill on a gravel bike.
Imagine having a Time Machine and going back with a 170mm 29r.
You’d be unstoppable.
I bet Tomac would beat a 29er slack head angle bike down this hill no matter who was riding it.
lol
Those bars 😂
Most riders cut the handlebars short. Having wide handlebars was considered noobish.
@@Turmogo Im old man, that's what bar width looked like in the day.
@@mfnd502 Well, I'm in my forties, although I consider myself still young 😅 I think the standard width at that time was around 580 mm, but in the competition videos of those years the handlebars look even narrower. People used to cut them down to 550 or 560, partly because there was an obsession with weight and every gram counted.