Loved it guys, I do feel like Tywin is one of the few characters that were better on the show, in the books he actually wasn't even really in it that much and his presence wasn't as strong. Charles Dance really owned the character though and was one of the bright spots of the show, Charles Dance had so much gravitas. Great episode as always by the Radio Westeros crew.
great episode Tywin is so well written, you despise him morally and yet understand that he is how he is due to experiences as a youth + general concern for his families welfare (of course you can argue that it became warped for an obsession for legacy)
Another brilliant and entertaining presentation. Thank you so much. A shout out for your guests, Ragnarok and Aziz Al Doory, too. I didn't realize Aziz was such a gifted musician. It's quite the treat. So many excellent points that you have made. I like A+J=T also because it relieves Tyrion of the curse of kinslaying, however this may be a part of his arc planned by GRRM. The old adage, "...by the fruit of the tree, it is known...", comes to mind from this analysis of Tywin Lannister. I feel that his pride made him and brought him low. LF and Varys being of less proud heritage presumably blinded him to the fact that each were indeed more than a match for him. He rather hilariously dismisses Varys's reports of a kraken spotted off the Fingers and a three headed dragon hatched in Qarth with his remark he isn't interested in either, "regardless the number of their heads". Maybe he should've been as its a possible metaphor that many "heads" are executing plots of their own making. Bravo.
+Mary Harrison Thanks! Yes, the guests were brilliant, we're so grateful to both! Good point about him underestimating LF & Varys because of their backgrounds. And that comment about the krakens & dragons WAS absolutely hilarious and ironic.
Thank you for a great listen. I love chilling out and listening to people discuss a book series I've loves for so many years. I also like seeing the series in a whole is getting a lot more popular, it means a lot more people doing content on the stuff I love.....:-)
Wow, I see a new episode and it's like getting an early Christmas present. Right away I know I'm gonna have an awesome day listening to RW!!!! Thanks guys!
There's nothing like taking a break from making my videos to listen to yours....about to start it now, and im just gonna go ahead say GREAT Video ahead of time lol. Keep them coming!
I disagree with the thought that Aries being Tyrions biological father doesn't effect the Tywin/Tyrion themes because it most definitely does. The fact that Tyrion lawfully should be the heir to casterly rock, tywins heir and the future Lord Lannister is the reason it ruins things. If he's not the true heir to casterly rock because he's a bastard then it makes the refusal to make him heir and accept him as a son significantly less powerful.
It seems Tywin held his ultimate position especially during Aerys and Robert's reigns, through capitolsing on the rebellion, and setting up the War of the Five Kings as he wanted , if war had to be fought. Stripping the title of Warden of the East from the Vale, intimidating Lysa in to not allowing her knights to join any Starks Tullys or Baratheon's, (Lysa saw the sense in not rebelling) Using a Frey tactic (waiting till the right moment) but actively, he denied battle to the glorious rebels as Rome did to Hannibal, (after 3 enormous defeats), the Lannister's ability to field armies as Rome did and fought with quill, ink and subterfuge, was a cruel masterclass. I've written a couple of large blog posts comparing Robb and Hannibal Barca alongside Ned to Hamilcar, and compared the Lannisters to Rome. The sack of Winterfell and New Carthage in Spain/Iberia.
@1:56:00 re: A+J=T - although you don't fully endorse this theory, your intro rebuts the most common literary argument against it - namely, that asoiaf's "daddy issue" themes lose power and poignancy if Tyrion is not actually Tywin's son by blood. BUT, as you point out, there's a brilliant parallel here to Ned & Jon. It's an exploration of the classic "genetics vs. environment" discussion. And there are many other peripheral connections to this theme such as Theon being raised by Ned, Littlefinger by Hoster, and, conversely, Dany NOT being raised by Aerys. Finally, like Jon, Tyrion Targaryen would still be blood-related to Tywin as Joanna was a Lannister cousin. The parallels between Jon (Ice) and Dany (fire) are obvious, but "the dragon has 3 heads" and if Tyrion is the third, any parallels between him and either of the others would be powerful. Jon is essentially Ned with more brains and more ability and willingness to think outside the box. Tyrion is essentially Tywin with more brains and a hell of a lot more heart and soul. If Tyrion really is Tywin's son, the analogy would be to Robb - not as resonant for me. So, strictly from a writer's standpoint (as opposed to the logic of the textual clues), I think we gain as much as we lose if A+J=T, and from a plot perspective, we get the huge boon of dragonblood allowing Tyrion to interact more successfully with Dany's beasts - and this is of course foreshadowed by their affection for Brown Ben Plumm, whose primary function might be (like Varamyr's) to give us a deus-ex-machina-avoiding demonstration of how supernatural elements behave on Grrth. Why else do we really need BB Plumm? He's a very tasty character, but aren't they all? The Second Sons fit nicely into the Meereenese matrix, but there are so many factions involved that Tyrion & Jorah's entries into "the knot" (and Dany's "trojan sewer" stunt) (and the delivery and demonstration of the key adage"there are old sellswords and bold sellswords ...") could have been achieved without BB Plumm. His essential role is to show that the dragons like Targ blood, and the appearance of Plumms in D&E is further evidence of George laying the foundation for Tyrion to ride a dragon (also the episode with the special saddle design). I think in the end, Sweetrobin will get his wish - the "bad little man will fly" - just not as little Lord Arryn intended.
+Kevin Moore Actually we did say we like the theory! @ 2:04:35 "we're going to go against the grain..." But you've hit on what we consider to be the MOST important factor underlying the debate-- that of fatherhood. Love all your points in that regard, and though we think BBP has a certain role to play beyond Meereen, we'd love it if Sweetrobin's wish was fulfilled in this most unexpected (for him) of ways. And let's not forget the story of young Ronnel Arryn during the Conquest. Wonder what sort of little tidbits we could extract from that ;)
I think my only beef with the idea of Tyrion not being Tywin's son is the fact that, with Jon being Rhaegar's son, and Aegon floating around...there's just too many secret Targs out there. It would be bad storytelling IMO to make Tyrion ALSO be a magically convenient Targ.
1:35:30 - Yolkboy - that is one VERY sinister Tyrion reading! Tyrion is in my opinion Dotrice's best character, but for this one scene you've outdone the old boy (and both readings leave Dinklage in the dust)
Great video Tywin made a visit to Lys famous for poison B4 King Scab became mad. I think this will figure big in WoW also the Kings Landing Tourney that Tywin gave for Aerys which coincides with Tyrion's date of conception which Joanna attended.
I've listened to this episode several times and inside the first 10 minutes, there's an error when you mention that Tyrion was the one who suggested sending the gold cloaks to the Wall. I made the same error. It was Varys who made the suggestion. He brought up the letters that were coming from the Wall and suggested the deserters should be sent to the Wall to help hold it. Tyrion then supported that suggestion. It doesn't change anything to the episode because of Tywin's response, but it adds something to Varys who was in the Throne Room when Alliser Thorne told the small council and Tyrion about the dead walking and the cold winds rising.
What is interesting is that Tywin forgot Machiavelli's most often repeated statement "avoid hatred" hell in the prince he has a title that is "That one should avoid being despised and Hated" chapter 19 btw. He repeates that comment throughout the prince. Yet while Tywin is feared, he created a lot of hate particularly due to the reins of castermere incident and most notably with his son. Sure he was feared but his actions also earned him the hatred of many, such as Ned Stark. I am curious, do you plan to do a video on Roose or perhaps historical characters(such as those from the dance of dragon era, the blackfire rebellions and so on?)
+herkles1 Very good point. Tywin didn't desire love, but in the end inspired too much hate, which is an error a Machiavellian prince would not have made. No immediate plans to tackle those topics, but we never rule anything out :)
+Radio Westeros Cool, there are some interesting people in the historical past that I think should deserve their own episode. :) I like Machiavelli's philosophy, of course it is easy to misunderstand what he talks about. As one example, Machiavelli never said it was -BETTER- to be feared then loved, he said it was -SAFER- safer is not necessarily better. And as you mentioned, Fortuna tends to favor the bold. He also wrote on how it is better to rely on the people over nobles :) Also since this is a Tywin episode, I am surprised you didn't use the lion quote Machiavelli stated in the prince: "The lion cannot protect himself from traps, and the fox cannot defend himself from wolves. One must therefore be a fox to recognize traps, and a lion to frighten wolves. Those that wish to be only lions do not understand this."
+herkles1 Sadly, we couldn't devote the entire two hours to Machiavellian exposition, so there's probably loads we could've talked about but didn't ;) No doubt the lion/fox line was being referred to when Ned said "Tywin Lannister was as much fox as lion."
+Azor Ahai There were lions in Westeros, as recently as a couple generations ago-- Sandor Clegane's grandfather and his dogs saved Lord Tytos (Tywin's father) from a lion attack. It seems like the wild ones have all been killed now though, because in ADwD Leaf tells Bran "The great lions of the western hills have been slain." But Cersei remembers a captive lion in the caves beneath Casterly Rock from her childhood.
I never thought of Tywin as a sociopath, just a cold, hard man, but after listening to this I can see it. It would also explain Cerisei's mental instability and why Joffery was completely psychotic. They got it from daddy/granddad.
I don't think he was a psychopath... just a hard dude, who felt it was his duty to his house.... which, if it was , he did a damn fine job... from Tytos the laughing lion, to Tywin, one of the most feared men in the realm.... also he was known to love his wife, and he really liked Jaime
I am undecided about Tyrion being a Targ. I personally wouldn't have a problem with it but my question is, Do we actually know the "dragon must have 3 heads" means 3 dragon riders or there has to be 3 Targaryens, or something else? We all know prophecies are very seldom literal and just because one character says it means something does not mean his interpretation is not skewed. It certainly is a puzzle. Thanks for another great video!
what if J+A=T IS a Red Herring for J+A=J&C thats my personal tin foil. it would be ironic because that would make Joff and Tommen legitimate airs to the throne. But I don't truly think that will pan out.
I was listening to this episode again, as I have been looking into A+J=T lately. I've always been quite open minded towards the theory, and so far have not been convinced by people's arguments against it, and I definitely agree it does not work as a Red Herring. I think the sexual fascination of Aerys towards Joanna has been clearly established in the novels, and after the situation between Aerys/Joanna/Twywin was given more detai in the TWOIAF, I think there is enough there for speculation. The timeline that gets created is also interesting, and leaves the possiblibty open for Tyrion to be Aerys'. However, you state that Tyrion was born in less than a year of Joanna's departure from Kings Landing, but the The World of Ice and Fire Aerys II section only says that Joanna left KL in 272, and gave birth to Tyrion in 273. That's not necessarily within a year, that could have been a lot longer. Is there some other information I'm missing or forgetting? Information that further specifies the timeline so that we can conclude it was defnitely within a year?
Hey Jur! Yes, you're right about the timeline of course, but we made one assumption that we think skews it towards 272-273 being "within a year" and that is that Tywin, as Hand, most likely remained in KL after Joanna's visit, meaning that no matter who fathered Tyrion, conception took place before she left. Because we think it's purposely written to leave the possibility open, we thought that was a fair assumption :)
awesome podcast, as always! I actually think that Tyrion is Aerys son (and don't see problem with that) and he is Viserion (golden dragon) rider, becouse he, Tyrion is oldest brother of Deny and Viserys. And I believe that Tyrion is Prince that was promised :D Daenerys is Azor Ahai (she is Drogon rider, of course) and Jon Snow is Last hero, Rhaegal's rider
I think that Viserion death is ONLY SHOW thing, because they don't want to do 3 dragons rider plot, cos they probably think that other secret Targaryen will be cheesy for TV show or they don't have time for any other 3 rider explanation and development, who WILL ride Viserion in the books. (I personally think it will be Tyrion, he is Aerys son and he is Viserion (golden dragon) rider, couse Tyrion is oldest brother of Deny, but it's another topic). AND I believe that in the books, we will see an actual ICE DRAGON, that Night King will create from frozen lake, and it will be living, thinking creature and not just resurrected, and this scene in 6 episode was like homage to it But D&D don't want to do all this 3 heads of a dragon, third rider plot, or because they think it's to complicated or too cheesy, or other reason, and they don't want to do Ice Dragon cos it is too expensive CGI (4 dragons, and Ice Dragon must be very beautiful, big, magnificent) what is huge missed opportunity, but they rushed all 7 season, because of lack of budget, so...D&D just killed Viserion and it eliminated all their headache about all of this Ok, now I have calmed down, and these are only my thoughts :) have a good day to anyone that read it all
Overral it is clear that you put a lot of thought into this analysis, but i do think there are some flaws in the analysis. 1: Tywin's ability to make political all does not seem very inept to me. The Robert/Cercei alliance may have been Jon's notion, but it takes two to make such a deal, and we know Tywin always dreamt of having his daughter be queen. The sack of KL would also have been pointless if there was no reward for it. So it is unlikely that Tywin also hadn't have a notion of such a deal himself. It also seemed likely for Jaime to have been married to Lysa Arryn, had he not been made into a kingsguard. So i would not jump to the conclussion of him being bad at alliance making. It is also worth to note, that it is in general very unlikely for highlords to marry outside of their respective kingdom. The only house that truly masters this, is not even a lord Paramount, and that is house Frey. 2: Tywin might be ruthless, i am not denying that at all, but it is not really him who makes the phrase "you win or you die" a political reality, because Tywin does value mercy, as is the example with the riverlords and northerners, who are parnoned if they would bent the knee. The same mercy as presented for the stormlords after the battle of blackwater. 3: It is true that Tywin cannot see the entire board, as he is being unable to see Littlefingers playing as well as the Tyrrels. First to be fair, no one knowss the whole board, but Tywin actually does take steps to know the board as well as possible when he appoints Tyrion as hand. Tyrion is supposed to gain this insight for him, and tyrion actually have precious insight in Littlefinger due to the framing incident. Tyrion however fails completely to act on this, and it is actually Tyrion's ineptitude in handling Littlefinger and informing Tywin of Littlefinger which leads to Tywin's lack of insight. It is also Tyrion who sends Littlefinger to broker the deal with the Tyrrels, which initiate the planning of the purple wedding. 4: Tywin's ability to secure the unity of his house also seems a bit off. First of i would argue that Tywin did secure the unity of his kin with only his children as the exception. One of the biggest problems with his children is the Jaime/Cercei romance which does seem to be somewhat influenced by something different, whether it be bloodraven or Quathe or a thrid party. Their relationship seem very unnatural with how soon it begins to be sexual and how abruptly it ends. Tyrion was somewhat beaten down, but the hatred is amplified by Varys who is constantly trying to create a rift between Tyrion and Cercei/Tywin and Tyrion falls right into it. 5: Giving Tyrion the north does make sense, since Riverrun is given to Genna's husband. So Riverrun is already secured for the Lannisters through the female line. So it would be a waste to give Riverrun to Tyrion and Genna to have Darry lands, when they could claim the entire north for the Lannisters. 6: Tywin's gifts of land in favor of the Reach lords is natural since the Lannisters will through Twin's plans have the north and a strong position in the Riverlands. The king who is also a Lannister through the female line will have control of the Stormlands, as Stannis is attainted. Plus there is a chance that this will stir political problems with the Tyrrels and the Hightowers. So the lannisters are really not stale in the spoils during Tywin's rule. 7: The war also begins as a regional conflict between the Lannisters and Tully's/Starks. There was initially not any reason as to why it would expand into the south right away. Also Tywin has substantial political capital as he is the prime money lender to Robert, and his daughter is queen. He was really not in a weakened position prior to Roberts death. So Tywin's reaction wasn't really that bold. The war would most likely have ended after a few skirmishes with Tyrion being delivered. Sure Tywin was most likely ready for a bigger conflict, but it didn't have to be a full out civil war but rather regional in nature.
Correction: In the nices way possible i believe your tywin quotes isn´t correct. Tywin says and i quote "Any man who must say i am THE king, is no king at all" not a king. Good day to you all.
Ares is an asshole for sure but I don't think he's mad. He seems like a paranoid man and for good reason. The man spent years offending the richest, most conniving and powerful man in all the land. Tywin probably set up the Duskendale kidnapping, which would explain why Ares became even more suspicious of Tywin and what he could do to him.
I am wondering how Tywin managed to sneak past Ned's forces and get to Kings Landing first... can you offer any additional insight? Did Ned go straight to the Stoney Sept to meet up with Robert, and that's how Tywin snuck past them? Seems there was no sneaking possible with the sheer number of people in the forces that eventually converged on Kings Landing.
Stoney Sept was months before the Battle at the Trident-- Rhaegar returned from the south and gathered an army in the gap between the two battles. Tywin was at Casterly Rock and would have brought his army up the Goldroad, which goes right from CR to King's Landing-- no sneaking involved! Ned was at the Trident, many leagues to the north, and was racing down the Kingsroad to reach the capital. The timing is a bit suspect (perhaps indicative of Tywin having a spy) but the armies wouldn't have had to encounter each other at all until they reached KL.
I don't think Joanna is dead. I think she's a silent sister forced out by Tywin. The fact that she's dead doesn't make any sense. How could she give birth to twins and live but give birth to a dwarf and die? Does anyone else agree?
Giving birth in those times was a risky business. All manner of things could go wrong. I'm not sure how you could research it but Dany's mother had a successful birth and then died giving birth to Dany. Catelyn's mother died in childbirth after successful births and Elia Martells had 2 children but was told any other attempt would kill her. I seem to recall several Targaryens down through the years have the same thing happened to them but I would be hard-pressed to give names as many of them sound and look the same to me. LOL. just my opinion but I find it difficult to imagine Tywin forcing Joanna out as it seems she was the only person he truly loved. It seems more likely to me he would've gotten rid of Tyrion and told Joanna the baby died.
hi. good one. but something is wrong with tyrion is targaryan theory. tyrion is shown to have black hair. plus his eye is black... and on one occasion had 'fury' in it. here: Page 415 Storm of swords part 1 Steel n snow. Sansa chapter: There was hunger in his green eye, it seemed to her, and fury in the black. Page 416. She stared at the stunted legs, the swollen brutish brow, the green eye and the black one, the raw stump of his nose and crooked pink scar, the course tangle of black and gold hair that passed for his beard. Tyrion Page 557 The dornish prince continued" you did have one evil eye, and some black fuzz on gour scalp.
+Shobhit Kaul Hi and thanks for the comment! Yes, he's noted to have two different color eyes and black hair mixed in with the gold of his beard as well as on his head. But we think with more blond on his head, based upon Jamie's & Jon's description: "I'm looking for my brother. You remember my brother, don't you, Lord Stark? He was with us at Winterfell. Fair-haired, mismatched eyes, sharp of tongue. A short man.""One green eye and one black one peered out from under a lank fall of hair so blond it seemed white." At any rate, since we've seen descriptions of several dark Targaryens, Tyrion's hair & eye color probably wouldn't be a fatal flaw with the theory.
Shiera Seastar (Targ bastard) also had mismatched eyes, one green and one blue. While I'm not totally sold on the idea of Tyrion being a secret Targ there is at least precedent for mismatched eyes.
I think you're all doing intersting project and I enjoy listening to the readings a lot however that doesnt mean I agree. Tywin did everything he needed to do to survive in a feudal society quite succesfully for 30-40 years. It is simply an unfair comparison to compare it to our value system today. I feel you all have collectivally chosen the narrative that Tywin Lannister is a unsuccesfull sociopath and than find or interpret facts to support that narrative. If what you say was true (which it isn't) Varys wouldnt have seen the need to take out Tywin and Kevan because they were succesfully consolidating their power and stabalizing the Realm. They were decisively winning, like every other conflict they were in before.
Loved it guys, I do feel like Tywin is one of the few characters that were better on the show, in the books he actually wasn't even really in it that much and his presence wasn't as strong. Charles Dance really owned the character though and was one of the bright spots of the show, Charles Dance had so much gravitas. Great episode as always by the Radio Westeros crew.
+James Buschell Yeah we both love Charles Dance and think the shows version of Tywin was damn good. Thx for listening James!
That was excellent "Rains of Castemere " by Aziz, I had no Idea he could sing and play guitar!!
great episode
Tywin is so well written, you despise him morally and yet understand that he is how he is due to experiences as a youth + general concern for his families welfare (of course you can argue that it became warped for an obsession for legacy)
Another brilliant and entertaining presentation. Thank you so much. A shout out for your guests, Ragnarok and Aziz Al Doory, too. I didn't realize Aziz was such a gifted musician. It's quite the treat. So many excellent points that you have made. I like A+J=T also because it relieves Tyrion of the curse of kinslaying, however this may be a part of his arc planned by GRRM. The old adage, "...by the fruit of the tree, it is known...", comes to mind from this analysis of Tywin Lannister. I feel that his pride made him and brought him low. LF and Varys being of less proud heritage presumably blinded him to the fact that each were indeed more than a match for him. He rather hilariously dismisses Varys's reports of a kraken spotted off the Fingers and a three headed dragon hatched in Qarth with his remark he isn't interested in either, "regardless the number of their heads". Maybe he should've been as its a possible metaphor that many "heads" are executing plots of their own making. Bravo.
+Mary Harrison Thanks! Yes, the guests were brilliant, we're so grateful to both! Good point about him underestimating LF & Varys because of their backgrounds. And that comment about the krakens & dragons WAS absolutely hilarious and ironic.
I want to say that Aziz majored in music in college
Cleaning my kitchen and enjoying this.
I also think Tyrion picking up the WHITE Cyvasse dragon in his WoW chapter foreshadows he will ride Viserion.
Great one guys. I really wish we'd get a flashback of Tywin and Joanna in the show.
@00:10:30 - "pay her in gold to signify his higher worth" - well, at least Tywin believes in progressive taxation.
Thank you for a great listen. I love chilling out and listening to people discuss a book series I've loves for so many years. I also like seeing the series in a whole is getting a lot more popular, it means a lot more people doing content on the stuff I love.....:-)
thank you so much for all your work. You guys are amazing.
aziz did just a great job with that song!
Wow - another fantastic guest commentator - brilliant stuff.
+Kevin Moore too right he is! We're delighted Ragnorak was able to join us & share some of his work.
Wow, I see a new episode and it's like getting an early Christmas present. Right away I know I'm gonna have an awesome day listening to RW!!!!
Thanks guys!
I literally did a stupid excited happy dance when I saw this was waiting for me to listen to when I got off work.
Radio Westeros doesn't concern itself with the opinion of sheep.
There's nothing like taking a break from making my videos to listen to yours....about to start it now, and im just gonna go ahead say GREAT Video ahead of time lol. Keep them coming!
I disagree with the thought that Aries being Tyrions biological father doesn't effect the Tywin/Tyrion themes because it most definitely does. The fact that Tyrion lawfully should be the heir to casterly rock, tywins heir and the future Lord Lannister is the reason it ruins things. If he's not the true heir to casterly rock because he's a bastard then it makes the refusal to make him heir and accept him as a son significantly less powerful.
It seems Tywin held his ultimate position especially during Aerys and Robert's reigns, through capitolsing on the rebellion, and setting up the War of the Five Kings as he wanted , if war had to be fought. Stripping the title of Warden of the East from the Vale, intimidating Lysa in to not allowing her knights to join any Starks Tullys or Baratheon's, (Lysa saw the sense in not rebelling)
Using a Frey tactic (waiting till the right moment) but actively, he denied battle to the glorious rebels as Rome did to Hannibal, (after 3 enormous defeats), the Lannister's ability to field armies as Rome did and fought with quill, ink and subterfuge, was a cruel masterclass.
I've written a couple of large blog posts comparing Robb and Hannibal Barca alongside Ned to Hamilcar, and compared the Lannisters to Rome. The sack of Winterfell and New Carthage in Spain/Iberia.
yayyyyyyy. really getting into the juicy characters aren't you?
@1:56:00 re: A+J=T - although you don't fully endorse this theory, your intro rebuts the most common literary argument against it - namely, that asoiaf's "daddy issue" themes lose power and poignancy if Tyrion is not actually Tywin's son by blood. BUT, as you point out, there's a brilliant parallel here to Ned & Jon. It's an exploration of the classic "genetics vs. environment" discussion. And there are many other peripheral connections to this theme such as Theon being raised by Ned, Littlefinger by Hoster, and, conversely, Dany NOT being raised by Aerys. Finally, like Jon, Tyrion Targaryen would still be blood-related to Tywin as Joanna was a Lannister cousin. The parallels between Jon (Ice) and Dany (fire) are obvious, but "the dragon has 3 heads" and if Tyrion is the third, any parallels between him and either of the others would be powerful.
Jon is essentially Ned with more brains and more ability and willingness to think outside the box. Tyrion is essentially Tywin with more brains and a hell of a lot more heart and soul. If Tyrion really is Tywin's son, the analogy would be to Robb - not as resonant for me. So, strictly from a writer's standpoint (as opposed to the logic of the textual clues), I think we gain as much as we lose if A+J=T, and from a plot perspective, we get the huge boon of dragonblood allowing Tyrion to interact more successfully with Dany's beasts - and this is of course foreshadowed by their affection for Brown Ben Plumm, whose primary function might be (like Varamyr's) to give us a deus-ex-machina-avoiding demonstration of how supernatural elements behave on Grrth. Why else do we really need BB Plumm? He's a very tasty character, but aren't they all? The Second Sons fit nicely into the Meereenese matrix, but there are so many factions involved that Tyrion & Jorah's entries into "the knot" (and Dany's "trojan sewer" stunt) (and the delivery and demonstration of the key adage"there are old sellswords and bold sellswords ...") could have been achieved without BB Plumm. His essential role is to show that the dragons like Targ blood, and the appearance of Plumms in D&E is further evidence of George laying the foundation for Tyrion to ride a dragon (also the episode with the special saddle design). I think in the end, Sweetrobin will get his wish - the "bad little man will fly" - just not as little Lord Arryn intended.
+Kevin Moore Actually we did say we like the theory! @ 2:04:35 "we're going to go against the grain..." But you've hit on what we consider to be the MOST important factor underlying the debate-- that of fatherhood. Love all your points in that regard, and though we think BBP has a certain role to play beyond Meereen, we'd love it if Sweetrobin's wish was fulfilled in this most unexpected (for him) of ways. And let's not forget the story of young Ronnel Arryn during the Conquest. Wonder what sort of little tidbits we could extract from that ;)
YES! Finally:D Great stuff cant wait to listen.
So far amazing, 'Looming eternal as Casterly Rock'
You win, or your children get involuntary daycare. This could very well be my favorite line in this episode.
1:46 I don't think Cersei pushed Melara so that she wouldn't speak the prophesy. I think it's because she asked the frog "Will I marry Jaime"
Also. I think Jaime's assesment of margery that 'she would die a virgin' might as well be a foreshadowing.
I think my only beef with the idea of Tyrion not being Tywin's son is the fact that, with Jon being Rhaegar's son, and Aegon floating around...there's just too many secret Targs out there. It would be bad storytelling IMO to make Tyrion ALSO be a magically convenient Targ.
Awesome work! don't for get to donate to this station y'all! We need the boss episodes to keep coming :) (Theon next! yerrsss!)
You're right I hate A + J = T because I don't want it to be true. I think A + J = JC would be a better fit for the story.
To comment here, too - absolutely amazing.
xoxo
niko
1:35:30 - Yolkboy - that is one VERY sinister Tyrion reading! Tyrion is in my opinion Dotrice's best character, but for this one scene you've outdone the old boy (and both readings leave Dinklage in the dust)
+Kevin Moore Thanks Kevin!
AMAZE! Love y'all thoughts on Tyrion's 'father'
Great video Tywin made a visit to Lys famous for poison B4 King Scab became mad. I think this will figure big in WoW also the Kings Landing Tourney that Tywin gave for Aerys which coincides with Tyrion's date of conception which Joanna attended.
I've listened to this episode several times and inside the first 10 minutes, there's an error when you mention that Tyrion was the one who suggested sending the gold cloaks to the Wall. I made the same error. It was Varys who made the suggestion. He brought up the letters that were coming from the Wall and suggested the deserters should be sent to the Wall to help hold it. Tyrion then supported that suggestion. It doesn't change anything to the episode because of Tywin's response, but it adds something to Varys who was in the Throne Room when Alliser Thorne told the small council and Tyrion about the dead walking and the cold winds rising.
:-0 I would love you for eternity if you did any of the Martells
+Freya Mikaelson yes. I vote for Doran:)
Lol The Sand Snakes :-DDDDD
What is interesting is that Tywin forgot Machiavelli's most often repeated statement "avoid hatred" hell in the prince he has a title that is "That one should avoid being despised and Hated" chapter 19 btw. He repeates that comment throughout the prince.
Yet while Tywin is feared, he created a lot of hate particularly due to the reins of castermere incident and most notably with his son. Sure he was feared but his actions also earned him the hatred of many, such as Ned Stark.
I am curious, do you plan to do a video on Roose or perhaps historical characters(such as those from the dance of dragon era, the blackfire rebellions and so on?)
+herkles1 Very good point. Tywin didn't desire love, but in the end inspired too much hate, which is an error a Machiavellian prince would not have made.
No immediate plans to tackle those topics, but we never rule anything out :)
+Radio Westeros
Cool, there are some interesting people in the historical past that I think should deserve their own episode. :)
I like Machiavelli's philosophy, of course it is easy to misunderstand what he talks about. As one example, Machiavelli never said it was -BETTER- to be feared then loved, he said it was -SAFER- safer is not necessarily better. And as you mentioned, Fortuna tends to favor the bold. He also wrote on how it is better to rely on the people over nobles :)
Also since this is a Tywin episode, I am surprised you didn't use the lion quote Machiavelli stated in the prince: "The lion cannot protect himself from traps, and the fox cannot defend himself from wolves. One must therefore be a fox to recognize traps, and a lion to frighten wolves. Those that wish to be only lions do not understand this."
+herkles1 Sadly, we couldn't devote the entire two hours to Machiavellian exposition, so there's probably loads we could've talked about but didn't ;)
No doubt the lion/fox line was being referred to when Ned said "Tywin Lannister was as much fox as lion."
+Azor Ahai There were lions in Westeros, as recently as a couple generations ago-- Sandor Clegane's grandfather and his dogs saved Lord Tytos (Tywin's father) from a lion attack. It seems like the wild ones have all been killed now though, because in ADwD Leaf tells Bran "The great lions of the western hills have been slain." But Cersei remembers a captive lion in the caves beneath Casterly Rock from her childhood.
I never thought of Tywin as a sociopath, just a cold, hard man, but after listening to this I can see it. It would also explain Cerisei's mental instability and why Joffery was completely psychotic. They got it from daddy/granddad.
Did you mean to say Tywin instead of Tyrion?
Yes, Big Daddy Tywin. Thanks.
I don't think he was a psychopath... just a hard dude, who felt it was his duty to his house.... which, if it was , he did a damn fine job... from Tytos the laughing lion, to Tywin, one of the most feared men in the realm....
also he was known to love his wife, and he really liked Jaime
TY
I gotta agree with Pycelle. Tywin was a great man.
I am undecided about Tyrion being a Targ. I personally wouldn't have a problem with it but my question is, Do we actually know the "dragon must have 3 heads" means 3 dragon riders or there has to be 3 Targaryens, or something else? We all know prophecies are very seldom literal and just because one character says it means something does not mean his interpretation is not skewed. It certainly is a puzzle. Thanks for another great video!
what if J+A=T IS a Red Herring for J+A=J&C thats my personal tin foil. it would be ironic because that would make Joff and Tommen legitimate airs to the throne. But I don't truly think that will pan out.
I was listening to this episode again, as I have been looking into A+J=T lately. I've always been quite open minded towards the theory, and so far have not been convinced by people's arguments against it, and I definitely agree it does not work as a Red Herring.
I think the sexual fascination of Aerys towards Joanna has been clearly established in the novels, and after the situation between Aerys/Joanna/Twywin was given more detai in the TWOIAF, I think there is enough there for speculation. The timeline that gets created is also interesting, and leaves the possiblibty open for Tyrion to be Aerys'. However, you state that Tyrion was born in less than a year of Joanna's departure from Kings Landing, but the The World of Ice and Fire Aerys II section only says that Joanna left KL in 272, and gave birth to Tyrion in 273. That's not necessarily within a year, that could have been a lot longer. Is there some other information I'm missing or forgetting? Information that further specifies the timeline so that we can conclude it was defnitely within a year?
Hey Jur! Yes, you're right about the timeline of course, but we made one assumption that we think skews it towards 272-273 being "within a year" and that is that Tywin, as Hand, most likely remained in KL after Joanna's visit, meaning that no matter who fathered Tyrion, conception took place before she left. Because we think it's purposely written to leave the possibility open, we thought that was a fair assumption :)
+Radio Westeros +Radio Westeros Of course, I knew I was missing something obvious. That's a fair assumption indeed. Thanks for the reply!
awesome podcast, as always! I actually think that Tyrion is Aerys son (and don't see problem with that) and he is Viserion (golden dragon) rider, becouse he, Tyrion is oldest brother of Deny and Viserys. And I believe that Tyrion is Prince that was promised :D Daenerys is Azor Ahai (she is Drogon rider, of course) and Jon Snow is Last hero, Rhaegal's rider
+Otaku Chan ahaha no way its george r r martin we are talking about here.
+The Almighty Loaf well, he still can happily kill them all at the end :D
I think that Viserion death is ONLY SHOW thing, because they don't want to do 3 dragons rider plot, cos they probably think that other secret Targaryen will be cheesy for TV show or they don't have time for any other 3 rider explanation and development, who WILL ride Viserion in the books. (I personally think it will be Tyrion, he is Aerys son and he is Viserion (golden dragon) rider, couse Tyrion is oldest brother of Deny, but it's another topic). AND I believe that in the books,
we will see an actual ICE DRAGON, that Night King will
create from frozen lake, and it will be living, thinking creature and not just resurrected, and this scene in 6 episode was like homage to it
But D&D don't want to do all this 3 heads of a dragon, third rider plot, or because they think it's to complicated or too cheesy, or other reason, and they don't want to do Ice Dragon cos it is too expensive CGI (4 dragons, and Ice Dragon must be very beautiful, big, magnificent) what is huge missed opportunity, but they rushed all 7 season, because of lack of budget, so...D&D just killed Viserion and it eliminated all their headache about all of this
Ok, now I have calmed down, and these are only my thoughts :) have a good day to anyone that read it all
@01:53:00 - Maybe you should advertise your Casterly Rock tourist getaway on AerysBnB
+Kevin Moore LOL :D
Overral it is clear that you put a lot of thought into this analysis, but i do think there are some flaws in the analysis.
1: Tywin's ability to make political all does not seem very inept to me. The Robert/Cercei alliance may have been Jon's notion, but it takes two to make such a deal, and we know Tywin always dreamt of having his daughter be queen. The sack of KL would also have been pointless if there was no reward for it. So it is unlikely that Tywin also hadn't have a notion of such a deal himself. It also seemed likely for Jaime to have been married to Lysa Arryn, had he not been made into a kingsguard. So i would not jump to the conclussion of him being bad at alliance making. It is also worth to note, that it is in general very unlikely for highlords to marry outside of their respective kingdom. The only house that truly masters this, is not even a lord Paramount, and that is house Frey.
2: Tywin might be ruthless, i am not denying that at all, but it is not really him who makes the phrase "you win or you die" a political reality, because Tywin does value mercy, as is the example with the riverlords and northerners, who are parnoned if they would bent the knee. The same mercy as presented for the stormlords after the battle of blackwater.
3: It is true that Tywin cannot see the entire board, as he is being unable to see Littlefingers playing as well as the Tyrrels. First to be fair, no one knowss the whole board, but Tywin actually does take steps to know the board as well as possible when he appoints Tyrion as hand. Tyrion is supposed to gain this insight for him, and tyrion actually have precious insight in Littlefinger due to the framing incident. Tyrion however fails completely to act on this, and it is actually Tyrion's ineptitude in handling Littlefinger and informing Tywin of Littlefinger which leads to Tywin's lack of insight. It is also Tyrion who sends Littlefinger to broker the deal with the Tyrrels, which initiate the planning of the purple wedding.
4: Tywin's ability to secure the unity of his house also seems a bit off. First of i would argue that Tywin did secure the unity of his kin with only his children as the exception. One of the biggest problems with his children is the Jaime/Cercei romance which does seem to be somewhat influenced by something different, whether it be bloodraven or Quathe or a thrid party. Their relationship seem very unnatural with how soon it begins to be sexual and how abruptly it ends. Tyrion was somewhat beaten down, but the hatred is amplified by Varys who is constantly trying to create a rift between Tyrion and Cercei/Tywin and Tyrion falls right into it.
5: Giving Tyrion the north does make sense, since Riverrun is given to Genna's husband. So Riverrun is already secured for the Lannisters through the female line. So it would be a waste to give Riverrun to Tyrion and Genna to have Darry lands, when they could claim the entire north for the Lannisters.
6: Tywin's gifts of land in favor of the Reach lords is natural since the Lannisters will through Twin's plans have the north and a strong position in the Riverlands. The king who is also a Lannister through the female line will have control of the Stormlands, as Stannis is attainted. Plus there is a chance that this will stir political problems with the Tyrrels and the Hightowers. So the lannisters are really not stale in the spoils during Tywin's rule.
7: The war also begins as a regional conflict between the Lannisters and Tully's/Starks. There was initially not any reason as to why it would expand into the south right away. Also Tywin has substantial political capital as he is the prime money lender to Robert, and his daughter is queen. He was really not in a weakened position prior to Roberts death. So Tywin's reaction wasn't really that bold. The war would most likely have ended after a few skirmishes with Tyrion being delivered. Sure Tywin was most likely ready for a bigger conflict, but it didn't have to be a full out civil war but rather regional in nature.
I like the Tyrion is a trygayan. it is a cool nature vs nutured story and he still is a Lannister as his mom was one
Correction: In the nices way possible i believe your tywin quotes isn´t correct. Tywin says and i quote "Any man who must say i am THE king, is no king at all" not a king. Good day to you all.
Ares is an asshole for sure but I don't think he's mad. He seems like a paranoid man and for good reason. The man spent years offending the richest, most conniving and powerful man in all the land. Tywin probably set up the Duskendale kidnapping, which would explain why Ares became even more suspicious of Tywin and what he could do to him.
I am wondering how Tywin managed to sneak past Ned's forces and get to Kings Landing first... can you offer any additional insight? Did Ned go straight to the Stoney Sept to meet up with Robert, and that's how Tywin snuck past them? Seems there was no sneaking possible with the sheer number of people in the forces that eventually converged on Kings Landing.
Stoney Sept was months before the Battle at the Trident-- Rhaegar returned from the south and gathered an army in the gap between the two battles. Tywin was at Casterly Rock and would have brought his army up the Goldroad, which goes right from CR to King's Landing-- no sneaking involved! Ned was at the Trident, many leagues to the north, and was racing down the Kingsroad to reach the capital. The timing is a bit suspect (perhaps indicative of Tywin having a spy) but the armies wouldn't have had to encounter each other at all until they reached KL.
I don't think Joanna is dead. I think she's a silent sister forced out by Tywin. The fact that she's dead doesn't make any sense. How could she give birth to twins and live but give birth to a dwarf and die? Does anyone else agree?
Giving birth in those times was a risky business. All manner of things could go wrong. I'm not sure how you could research it but Dany's mother had a successful birth and then died giving birth to Dany. Catelyn's mother died in childbirth after successful births and Elia Martells had 2 children but was told any other attempt would kill her. I seem to recall several Targaryens down through the years have the same thing happened to them but I would be hard-pressed to give names as many of them sound and look the same to me. LOL. just my opinion but I find it difficult to imagine Tywin forcing Joanna out as it seems she was the only person he truly loved. It seems more likely to me he would've gotten rid of Tyrion and told Joanna the baby died.
hi. good one.
but something is wrong with tyrion is targaryan theory.
tyrion is shown to have black hair. plus his eye is black... and on one occasion had 'fury' in it.
here:
Page 415
Storm of swords part 1
Steel n snow.
Sansa chapter:
There was hunger in his green eye, it seemed to her, and fury in the black.
Page 416.
She stared at the stunted legs, the swollen brutish brow, the green eye and the black one, the raw stump of his nose and crooked pink scar, the course tangle of black and gold hair that passed for his beard.
Tyrion
Page 557
The dornish prince continued" you did have one evil eye, and some black fuzz on gour scalp.
+Shobhit Kaul Hi and thanks for the comment! Yes, he's noted to have two different color eyes and black hair mixed in with the gold of his beard as well as on his head. But we think with more blond on his head, based upon Jamie's & Jon's description:
"I'm looking for my brother. You remember my brother, don't you, Lord Stark? He was with us at Winterfell. Fair-haired, mismatched eyes, sharp of tongue. A short man.""One green eye and one black one peered out from under a lank fall of hair so blond it seemed white."
At any rate, since we've seen descriptions of several dark Targaryens, Tyrion's hair & eye color probably wouldn't be a fatal flaw with the theory.
Shiera Seastar (Targ bastard) also had mismatched eyes, one green and one blue. While I'm not totally sold on the idea of Tyrion being a secret Targ there is at least precedent for mismatched eyes.
LEARN TO PRONOUNCE THE NAMES
Grrm himself has said you can pronounce the names any way you want. Listen to the official audio books for some really funky pronunciations ;)
r+l= d not joh
I think you're all doing intersting project and I enjoy listening to the readings a lot however that doesnt mean I agree.
Tywin did everything he needed to do to survive in a feudal society quite succesfully for 30-40 years. It is simply an unfair comparison to compare it to our value system today. I feel you all have collectivally chosen the narrative that Tywin Lannister is a unsuccesfull sociopath and than find or interpret facts to support that narrative.
If what you say was true (which it isn't) Varys wouldnt have seen the need to take out Tywin and Kevan because they were succesfully consolidating their power and stabalizing the Realm. They were decisively winning, like every other conflict they were in before.